2024 Kawasaki Ninja 7 hybrid motorcycle first ride review(cycleworld.com)
cycleworld.com
2024 Kawasaki Ninja 7 hybrid motorcycle first ride review
https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-reviews/kawasaki-ninja-7-hybrid-motorcycle-first-ride-review/
84 comments
Just a guess out of my butt but, I would bet that very few people on this website have ever driven a 1000cc bike.
What's the fastest you've gone on your Ninja SX 1000 and how do you balance the fear of dying/getting into an accident/danger?
What's the fastest you've gone on your Ninja SX 1000 and how do you balance the fear of dying/getting into an accident/danger?
I daily commuted on a 1300cc sport bike for 6 years (and have owned them for much longer). Only reason I don’t now is that I work from home.
As a taller person I find I feel way safer on a big bike over a small one. Theyre more comfortable (less hunched over, better for my back), more stable, have more grip due to more weight on bigger tyres, yet have the power to punch your way out of a sticky spot or overtake someone in a split second if needed. It’s all personal preference but I’ve ridden everything from 250cc to 1300cc and way prefer the upper end of the scale.
Plus they just put a stupid grin on your face and make the commute a happy part of the day rather than a boring one.
In saying that I’m far from your typical big-cc rider. I’ve never done stupid speeds or raced anyone and just love the feeling of vehicles with some oomph.
As a taller person I find I feel way safer on a big bike over a small one. Theyre more comfortable (less hunched over, better for my back), more stable, have more grip due to more weight on bigger tyres, yet have the power to punch your way out of a sticky spot or overtake someone in a split second if needed. It’s all personal preference but I’ve ridden everything from 250cc to 1300cc and way prefer the upper end of the scale.
Plus they just put a stupid grin on your face and make the commute a happy part of the day rather than a boring one.
In saying that I’m far from your typical big-cc rider. I’ve never done stupid speeds or raced anyone and just love the feeling of vehicles with some oomph.
> I find I feel way safer on a big bike over a small one
I find I feel way safer [in a car]...
I find I feel way safer [in a car]...
Sure, and any rider will agree with you. But we ride because the fun we have overshadows the dangers. Everyone knows that it is more dangerous, but that doesn't mean you're going to die in an accident necissarily.
Yeah, I'm sure mountain climbers feels safer on the ground, sailors feel safer tied to a dock and pilots feel safer having a cup of tea in the airfield cafe. Maximising safety isn't a very good recipe for a fulfilling life, for most people at least.
I daily commuted on a 300cc for a long time and yeah, the extra power is very handy on US highways. I find at least 70hp is a nice sweet spot, and everything above that is mostly for putting a grin on your face for a solo rider.
In college I had a Yamaha R6 (a 600cc sport bike) that I would take passengers on, down highway 13 leaving Berkeley. I often hit an indicated 150+ and kept it there for as close to 30 seconds as I could stomach. Everyone in jeans and a jacket at best.
I took my guy friends a few times too (and atleast 10 girls over the years), and one interesting thing I noticed was that guys would be shaking enough for me to feel when we hit the stoplight at the top of the 13. Women never did. They almost never thought it was too crazy, while my guy friends thought it was a crazy insane rush and thrill they'd talk about for days.
I took my guy friends a few times too (and atleast 10 girls over the years), and one interesting thing I noticed was that guys would be shaking enough for me to feel when we hit the stoplight at the top of the 13. Women never did. They almost never thought it was too crazy, while my guy friends thought it was a crazy insane rush and thrill they'd talk about for days.
[deleted]
I would say that your guess is probably not correct. Liter bikes are expensive, frivolous purchases yet tech people generally have a lot of disposable and at a younger age.
My first purchase as a grad was a sports car, followed a year later by a cbr1000. And I don’t mean first big purchase. I literally took my employment contract with wet ink to the bank for a loan.
My first purchase as a grad was a sports car, followed a year later by a cbr1000. And I don’t mean first big purchase. I literally took my employment contract with wet ink to the bank for a loan.
Ha! Me too, just this year I brought my first big career contract at 22 to the bank to get a loan for a 2SS Camaro Vert, and will probably get either a CBR or a ZX6R late this year.
I mostly ride motorcycles instead of driving and own bikes ranging from 125cc (Thai Honda Scooter) to 1300cc (BMW K1300R). Riding became a bit less since the pandemic increased remote working, and also I ride my bicycle locally (groceries, also commuting etc).
Fastest was/is about 175mph, but that is rare (and really uncomfortable on a naked bike). Most dangerous encounters are inner City during commute times when theres lots of "angry" drivers and the same on highways. When the road is empty, there is less danger. What I am uncomfortable with are tight bends with fear of approaching traffic that may cut corners, lane splitting is also not for the faint of heart and dirt in corners. And "idiots" that try to challenge me.
Edit: Also, my most used bikes (Ducati & KTM dualsports bike) have all the latest electronics, which makes a huge difference in dangerous situations (eg. slippery corner, emergency braking)
Edit2: what helps against fear? For me: Riding more, thoughout the year and security training on a closed track to keep a feeling for edge cases and not lose it when there's e.g. minor slide. After I kissed the tarmac in 2019 I did exactly that (got a new bike with latest electronics and kept riding, took some 3k miles to fully overcome the fear). Also: I only ride in full gear (helmet, gloves, riding suit with full set of protectors and motorcycle boots)
Fastest was/is about 175mph, but that is rare (and really uncomfortable on a naked bike). Most dangerous encounters are inner City during commute times when theres lots of "angry" drivers and the same on highways. When the road is empty, there is less danger. What I am uncomfortable with are tight bends with fear of approaching traffic that may cut corners, lane splitting is also not for the faint of heart and dirt in corners. And "idiots" that try to challenge me.
Edit: Also, my most used bikes (Ducati & KTM dualsports bike) have all the latest electronics, which makes a huge difference in dangerous situations (eg. slippery corner, emergency braking)
Edit2: what helps against fear? For me: Riding more, thoughout the year and security training on a closed track to keep a feeling for edge cases and not lose it when there's e.g. minor slide. After I kissed the tarmac in 2019 I did exactly that (got a new bike with latest electronics and kept riding, took some 3k miles to fully overcome the fear). Also: I only ride in full gear (helmet, gloves, riding suit with full set of protectors and motorcycle boots)
Thanks for asking.
A Japanese, inline-four that is that smooth, tuned to feel like a torque-y V-twin is unusual. I always wanted a fireblade for similar reasons though I hear Aprilia makes a 400 V-twin which is more to my lightweight expectations for most things.
My purchase of the liter bike was a transitional stage from my dearly-beloved SV650 to my equally dearly-beloved 310cc BMW GS world-beater.
The aside to other MPG commenters here is that indeed, the SV got 60 MPG, while the SX got maybe 40 on a good day.
I'll answer your primary question by chortling gently and saying speed was never the goal. Rather, acceleration was.
The numbers speak volumes: 0-60 MPH ~ 3 seconds, 100 MPH ~ 6 seconds, optic nerve compressed as the eyes approach the PFC, check.
The fun part is that 6 seconds go by quickly when your consciousness is overwhelmed by shifting 3 gears in six seconds without assistance.
Your second question is best answered by saying, "I've been lucky."
LSS: read both David Hough books, take whatever classes you can get cheap (in my state they're underwritten by the state - YMMV). Then, read the David Hough books until you've survived a dissertation committee's murder-board on the details.
Consider the implications of riding full-time with two fingers on the brake lever, and the FPS-downstream implications of that choice's improvement in reaction time to the cage pulling out in front of you, and you have a rough idea why the classes, while good, are not enough, given MPH and survival's inverse relationship in motorcycling.
The subtext is that I'm paradoxically hyper-vigilant, over-trained, and fearless; in other words, I'm a human robot. That included 20 years of urban summer commutes, 80 miles per day. Not the million miles I've traveled by cage, but still.
Be safe out there!
A Japanese, inline-four that is that smooth, tuned to feel like a torque-y V-twin is unusual. I always wanted a fireblade for similar reasons though I hear Aprilia makes a 400 V-twin which is more to my lightweight expectations for most things.
My purchase of the liter bike was a transitional stage from my dearly-beloved SV650 to my equally dearly-beloved 310cc BMW GS world-beater.
The aside to other MPG commenters here is that indeed, the SV got 60 MPG, while the SX got maybe 40 on a good day.
I'll answer your primary question by chortling gently and saying speed was never the goal. Rather, acceleration was.
The numbers speak volumes: 0-60 MPH ~ 3 seconds, 100 MPH ~ 6 seconds, optic nerve compressed as the eyes approach the PFC, check.
The fun part is that 6 seconds go by quickly when your consciousness is overwhelmed by shifting 3 gears in six seconds without assistance.
Your second question is best answered by saying, "I've been lucky."
LSS: read both David Hough books, take whatever classes you can get cheap (in my state they're underwritten by the state - YMMV). Then, read the David Hough books until you've survived a dissertation committee's murder-board on the details.
Consider the implications of riding full-time with two fingers on the brake lever, and the FPS-downstream implications of that choice's improvement in reaction time to the cage pulling out in front of you, and you have a rough idea why the classes, while good, are not enough, given MPH and survival's inverse relationship in motorcycling.
The subtext is that I'm paradoxically hyper-vigilant, over-trained, and fearless; in other words, I'm a human robot. That included 20 years of urban summer commutes, 80 miles per day. Not the million miles I've traveled by cage, but still.
Be safe out there!
I don’t ride on the street anymore (not enough fun to be worth the risk - of death via car or losing my drivers license), but I do regularly take my S1000RR to the track. It is capable of doing just over 90mph in first gear, which is why it’s not much fun on the street at legal speeds. It will quickly get to 150mph and with enough room run out to 195mph, but the length of straights on most tracks keep it down to the 140-175mph range.
The risks of sudden-stop collisions are better controlled on the track than the street. In addition, traction control has greatly reduced the risk of high-side crashes. Airbags inside the leathers have greatly (almost completely) reduced the risk of torso injuries if you do crash. Helmets are a bit safer than they have ever been (FIM certification). Traction control, ABS and cornering ABS have reduced the risk of dumb crashes while learning, probably by 2/3rds. ABS eventually gets disabled when you get more experienced, but at that point it’s not really needed. Traction control is adjustable on the fly and doesn’t really ever get in the way because of that.
High-level racers have many crashes in their pursuit of faster lap times. The airbags have made an incredible difference in injury rates. I’m just a normal middle aged guy with a family and I find the risks to be acceptable with a fast bike on the track. I understand that most people may not, but then again most people don’t seriously consider the risks they take on a daily basis anyway.
Airbags weren’t fully mandatory in Moto2/3/GP until 2018, but you can see from the 2013-2017 data that it was already safer than you would expect given the high number of crashes. To be fair, some riders were using airbags prior to 2018. Also, crash rates while pushing the edge of the envelope racing are vastly higher than crash rates at track days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8082255/
The risks of sudden-stop collisions are better controlled on the track than the street. In addition, traction control has greatly reduced the risk of high-side crashes. Airbags inside the leathers have greatly (almost completely) reduced the risk of torso injuries if you do crash. Helmets are a bit safer than they have ever been (FIM certification). Traction control, ABS and cornering ABS have reduced the risk of dumb crashes while learning, probably by 2/3rds. ABS eventually gets disabled when you get more experienced, but at that point it’s not really needed. Traction control is adjustable on the fly and doesn’t really ever get in the way because of that.
High-level racers have many crashes in their pursuit of faster lap times. The airbags have made an incredible difference in injury rates. I’m just a normal middle aged guy with a family and I find the risks to be acceptable with a fast bike on the track. I understand that most people may not, but then again most people don’t seriously consider the risks they take on a daily basis anyway.
Airbags weren’t fully mandatory in Moto2/3/GP until 2018, but you can see from the 2013-2017 data that it was already safer than you would expect given the high number of crashes. To be fair, some riders were using airbags prior to 2018. Also, crash rates while pushing the edge of the envelope racing are vastly higher than crash rates at track days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8082255/
Fellow sportbike rider (late model R6) - Thank you for sharing that article, even I was surprised to see such a low incidence of fractures.
I was curious what the corresponding data would be for brain injuries, and found the below, which is also surprisingly low.
Musculoskeletal injuries represented the vast majority (88.43%) of the 191 encounters registered in the acute setting, while concussions were diagnosed in only 1.57%. The most common orthopedic motorcycle injuries were upper extremity contusions while the most common anatomical area for fractures was the hand.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09493...
I was curious what the corresponding data would be for brain injuries, and found the below, which is also surprisingly low.
Musculoskeletal injuries represented the vast majority (88.43%) of the 191 encounters registered in the acute setting, while concussions were diagnosed in only 1.57%. The most common orthopedic motorcycle injuries were upper extremity contusions while the most common anatomical area for fractures was the hand.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09493...
Strange assumption, I know plenty of people that come to HN and are into motorcycles!
I noticed in places I worked pre cloud, the ops guys always rode motorcycles. I figured it was so they could get to the data center quickly despite heavy traffic, in the event that a server needed attention.
Haha, lots of our ops guys ride motorbikes too! Never thought of the connection though. One of those needs further research things for sure.
Electric motorbike rider here (Bonfire X) ... its an absolutely exciting new market, and some of the developments in the lower-end of the scale are really very hacker friendly. Replaceable batteries and upgradeable motors put the motorbike crew into the same kinds of territories that the PC-builders are into .
The Bonfire X (and our UNU, a lesser moped) is definitely a hackers motorbike.
To me, this seems like a no-brainer for any techie to get into ..
The Bonfire X (and our UNU, a lesser moped) is definitely a hackers motorbike.
To me, this seems like a no-brainer for any techie to get into ..
1000cc really doesn't tell you much. A 300 2-stroke KTM EXC will give you a way more thrilling ride than a 1200 BMW RT.
Can confirm. Going down a single track with the 300, giving a little bit of that 2 stroke throttle action, realizing that you're now suddenly moving seriously fast considering the terrain. Love it!
[deleted]
More likely to die in the middle of desert with a BMW R1250GS short of water than smashing into a pylon on a toy racer.
Job wise we spent years and hundreds of millions of kilometres draping the ground at 70 m/s (252 km/hr | 157 m/ph) with ~80 m ground clearance dodging birds and power lines so that's always seemed like a comfortable speed.
Job wise we spent years and hundreds of millions of kilometres draping the ground at 70 m/s (252 km/hr | 157 m/ph) with ~80 m ground clearance dodging birds and power lines so that's always seemed like a comfortable speed.
I used to daily commute on a ZX6-R. Used to hit 150mph most days commuting in. Stupid in hindsight.
Sold it as I was becoming increasingly complacent and it was only a matter of time before something serious happened.
Sold it as I was becoming increasingly complacent and it was only a matter of time before something serious happened.
I have had daily riders from 125 to 1300cc. The fastest I have gone is 155 on a gsxr-750. I’d love a hybrid bike with a minuscule ice just for maintaining 70-80 on the freeway.
Just a guess out of my butt but, I would bet that very few people on this website have ever driven a 1000cc bike.
Indeed - I've had cars with smaller engines.
Indeed - I've had cars with smaller engines.
The fear is less about death and more about dropping/knocking it over stupidly and needing ropes/helpers to pick it up
> 100 MPH in third gear - not a good survival strategy for someone my age.
Fixed it for you
Fixed it for you
Wow! I never really imagined a market where a motorcycle needed a hybrid considering their gas mileage (Extra bad emissions though), but this bike seems like a wonderful idea. I bet the instantaneous torque would be something to behold too. Love the 3 mode concept too
I want to ride one.
I want to ride one.
The gas mileage isn't actually higher than a regular motorcycle (*well some yeah but not by much). It seems mostly useful as a demonstration of the tech.
To be fair, this is Kawasaki we're talking about. Only company I know that's nuts enough to put out a 250cc inline 4 screamer in the ZX25R. Then also produce the H2 which has a supercharger with holes cut into it so that you can hear the chirping of the impeller blade tips exceeding the speed of sound and generating a small sonic boom.
Don't know of another large motorcycle company that's willing to try wonderfully silly things like this.
Don't know of another large motorcycle company that's willing to try wonderfully silly things like this.
Yamaha Niken. Ducati also does some really cool stuff with their bike tech, but doesn't market it as much as the other brands, preferring their exotic brand image.
Wow that is cool to see!
When I was a learner the hot bike to have in Aus was a 90s MC22 CBR250RR, all the newer 250 "sports" bikes were sad single or parallel twins
When I was a learner the hot bike to have in Aus was a 90s MC22 CBR250RR, all the newer 250 "sports" bikes were sad single or parallel twins
I guess loud noises sell more bikes because the riders tend to be obnoxiously noisy assholes.
I'm only speaking from my own experience but my Suzuki VStrom has about a 5.5 Gallon tank and the Kawasaki hubrid has a 3.7 gallon tank and they both get about the same mileage so I think it still gets a better MPG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GT750
750cc liquid cooled two stroke.
750cc liquid cooled two stroke.
The emissions are not really bad for modern motorcycles. It's not hard to get a Euro 5 certified one.
Yes, but why? I have an entry level Kawi and it gets about 60MPG, which is already higher than most cars. Motorcycles already accelerate pretty quickly, so the electric drivetrain doesn't offer a lot there. I can see this making more sense at the higher CC levels, because the bigger bikes burn more fuel and are heavier. Not seeing the big deal for smaller CC sporty bikes.
FTA:
"The 7 Hybrid differs from those models in its attempt to be three motorcycles in one. Think of it as a zero-emissions bike for heavily restricted city centers, a fuel-sipping urban cruiser, and a fully capable canyon carver able to take on 200-plus mile days, suggests Kawasaki."
It's less about fuel economy and more about emissions. Also FTA:
"the Kawasaki Ninja 7 Hybrid, the first mass-production strong hybrid motorcycle—Kawasaki’s two-wheeled solution for the modern world, where Zero- and Low-Emissions Zones are very much a reality. Even if they haven’t made their way to the United States, yet."
"The 7 Hybrid differs from those models in its attempt to be three motorcycles in one. Think of it as a zero-emissions bike for heavily restricted city centers, a fuel-sipping urban cruiser, and a fully capable canyon carver able to take on 200-plus mile days, suggests Kawasaki."
It's less about fuel economy and more about emissions. Also FTA:
"the Kawasaki Ninja 7 Hybrid, the first mass-production strong hybrid motorcycle—Kawasaki’s two-wheeled solution for the modern world, where Zero- and Low-Emissions Zones are very much a reality. Even if they haven’t made their way to the United States, yet."
Unfortunately it is heavier, longer wheelbase, less powerful and the nail in the coffin: gets the same real world fuel economy as a ~700cc pure ICE parallel twin. And they mention this in the article with the Honda NC750X. Not to mention about 50% more expensive.
For me it would have to get at least 80mpg (3l/100km) to make any sense. And even then if your target is the highest economy, lowest pollution, practicality in town, something like Honda PCX 125 gets 100mpg at a quarter of the price.
But maybe it's just the start and future generations will have some real advantage other than "hybrid" in the name.
For me it would have to get at least 80mpg (3l/100km) to make any sense. And even then if your target is the highest economy, lowest pollution, practicality in town, something like Honda PCX 125 gets 100mpg at a quarter of the price.
But maybe it's just the start and future generations will have some real advantage other than "hybrid" in the name.
I used to ride a SV650 before we had kids. Honestly, I can't think of a fuel efficiency figure which would make me think "I have to have that!" You just don't spend that much on fuel on a motorbike, even commuting about 20 miles each way it was still less than a single day on the train per week, about £30 in fuel. Even halving that spend is a negligible difference practically.
If I wanted to have cheap motoring I'd probably go for the Toyota Yaris hybrid which gets those fuel efficiency figures and is a lot more fun to be in when it's dark and wet.
If I wanted to have cheap motoring I'd probably go for the Toyota Yaris hybrid which gets those fuel efficiency figures and is a lot more fun to be in when it's dark and wet.
Yep.. I had an SV650 too, and IIRC I would typically turn in 50-55mpg any place except doing laps at the racetrack.
I get they need to get something out to start this process but this seems very underwhelming given the price, the weirdness with the transmission, the extra complexity of the whole thing, etc..
Probably a big issue with getting the fuel economy up is simply that bikes aren't very aerodynamic. So they suffer even more than a car with highway riding. But acceleration, etc.. is just not a problem with bikes in any way, there is absolutely zero need for an electric motor to help with anything. Even a 250cc bike can move out with authority at low speeds.
I'm in the US. I had the SV650 quite some time ago, but it would cost me maybe $10-12 to fill it even today. It was VERY cheap to run.
Later on I had a Honda Interceptor, that got 40-45mpg in street riding despite being a big heavy bike with excessive power (as opposed to so many even faster bikes that are just absolutely ridiculous) that I usually had luggage on.
I get they need to get something out to start this process but this seems very underwhelming given the price, the weirdness with the transmission, the extra complexity of the whole thing, etc..
Probably a big issue with getting the fuel economy up is simply that bikes aren't very aerodynamic. So they suffer even more than a car with highway riding. But acceleration, etc.. is just not a problem with bikes in any way, there is absolutely zero need for an electric motor to help with anything. Even a 250cc bike can move out with authority at low speeds.
I'm in the US. I had the SV650 quite some time ago, but it would cost me maybe $10-12 to fill it even today. It was VERY cheap to run.
Later on I had a Honda Interceptor, that got 40-45mpg in street riding despite being a big heavy bike with excessive power (as opposed to so many even faster bikes that are just absolutely ridiculous) that I usually had luggage on.
Yeah, I've never really fancied a dual clutch bike. We have one in our car and I only really use it in manual mode when towing - it's easier to change down before a hill than let the DCT get half way up and realise it needs to change. I've occasionally tried to use it to drive 'spiritedly' and you can practically hear the computer churning as it weighs up your inputs and decides whether it's going to let you do what you want or not. Makes a bit of a mockery of having flappy paddles behind the wheel!
I can't imagine what one would be like in an actual performance bike. So, did you mean 'slam open the throttle' as in kick down 3 gears and give it everything you've got or 'slam open the throttle' as in I'd like a nice low RPM burble to hasten us along to an increased speed limit.
I can't imagine what one would be like in an actual performance bike. So, did you mean 'slam open the throttle' as in kick down 3 gears and give it everything you've got or 'slam open the throttle' as in I'd like a nice low RPM burble to hasten us along to an increased speed limit.
I am excited for these sort of motorcycles to continue getting better. Ideally I'd want either a full electric bike similar to my F 850 GS from BMW, or some plug in hybrid with at least 35 miles range.
My F750GS is such an easy bike to live with. It's one of those products that on paper seems boring compared to the competitors but when you actually use it every day you see why it's nice.
I also had a F750GS for a year or so. It was my first bike (at age 41). It was a wonderful motorcycle, considering my lack of experience on other motorcycles.
Lightweight, not too tall (as I am relatively short at 5'7"). Capable with good performance, but not too fast.
Lightweight, not too tall (as I am relatively short at 5'7"). Capable with good performance, but not too fast.
I wouldn't call it lightweight, but for an adventure bike it's certainly accessible.
I wonder when an EV bike becomes available that replaces my BMW R1200GS's abilities.
Consider this: I can do 200 miles, refill, continue riding, then refill, continue riding, then get to my destination as it turns dark because on these adventures it's hard to plan exactly ahead.
With EV's however, it's a different picture. You don't have a way of charging on real adventures (going mostly offroad), the weight of the bike would be even worse, the range questionable.
Will a proper alternative ever exist? The energy density of Lithium ion batteries is so far far off.
Even today - using gasoline, you can easily find yourself in situations where even 200 mile range is not sufficient (especially if there's an incident and you need to back track 50 miles, etc).
Consider this: I can do 200 miles, refill, continue riding, then refill, continue riding, then get to my destination as it turns dark because on these adventures it's hard to plan exactly ahead.
With EV's however, it's a different picture. You don't have a way of charging on real adventures (going mostly offroad), the weight of the bike would be even worse, the range questionable.
Will a proper alternative ever exist? The energy density of Lithium ion batteries is so far far off.
Even today - using gasoline, you can easily find yourself in situations where even 200 mile range is not sufficient (especially if there's an incident and you need to back track 50 miles, etc).
I've ridden long distances around US and usually if you've got 120 miles of gas range, you're fine pretty much anywhere on pavement, even in that very long stretch of no services in Utah. Off road of course is another universe.
I don't think an EV will replace the GS's capability for decades. I'm much more interested in replacing the capability of my DR-Z400 or WR250.
I don't think an EV will replace the GS's capability for decades. I'm much more interested in replacing the capability of my DR-Z400 or WR250.
That would be a great start. But one could ponder the usefulness. Bikes like the DRZ400 is a niche bike. One doesn't replace that with an EV for the sake for the environment. I'd love to see an EV with that capability, but it won't happen if there's no market for it. We could easily be riding gasoline motorcycles for the next 100 years.
Niche? We must live in different places. Where I live dual sports are probably the most popular bikes after Harleys. All the kids in my neighborhood are getting Surrons instead of gas dirt bikes.
I only meant niche as in the way motorcycles are a niche. Very popular yes but on the road there are 100 cars per motorcycle.
Why did they go for paddle shifting instead of a standard foot shifter??
For the extra 134 pounds over the original Ninja 400 you get a whopping 7.5 miles EV range
Why not just get a full electric like the Zero?
For the extra 134 pounds over the original Ninja 400 you get a whopping 7.5 miles EV range
Why not just get a full electric like the Zero?
I've ridden a friend's zero. Love the bike. The price is right, but comes with compromise since my weekend trips are beyond the zero's range. My friend has had problems which are all fixed at manufacturer cost under warranty; however, having the kevlar belt break at speed is not a place I ever want to be.
Are the belts that zero motorbikes come with sup bar? I've owned a BMW F800S and its final drive kevlar belt lasts as long, if not longer, than a chain.
What happens when the belt breaks?
The most obvious thing is: you will lose power transmission immediately. That once happened to me on a vintage Moto Guzzi LeMans while overtaking (the cardan drive's joint broke apart, but didnt block the rear wheel). That was absolutely not funny.
Apart from that: it depends if the snapped belt just flies away or if it obstructs/blocks the rear sprocket (very dangerous instant blockage of the read wheel). A chain is probably more prone to that than a belt.
Apart from that: it depends if the snapped belt just flies away or if it obstructs/blocks the rear sprocket (very dangerous instant blockage of the read wheel). A chain is probably more prone to that than a belt.
Hm yeah, instant blockage is very not fun, but loss of power transmission doesn't sound that terrible. It should be fine to coast to a stop, even if you're overtaking (you can probably fall back into your old position, no?).
> but loss of power transmission doesn't sound that terrible
On a m/c it is, particularly when leaning in a turn. An experienced rider should recover, but it won't be fun. Also, other traffic participants don't expect a m/c to suddenly stop in the middle of the road for no apparent reason.
Never had such a drastic mechanical failure, just ran out of gas (on the GG bridge of all places) and had a blown main fuse (fortunately on the down-hill section and was able to coast through multiple lanes of traffic to a stop at the side of the road).
On a m/c it is, particularly when leaning in a turn. An experienced rider should recover, but it won't be fun. Also, other traffic participants don't expect a m/c to suddenly stop in the middle of the road for no apparent reason.
Never had such a drastic mechanical failure, just ran out of gas (on the GG bridge of all places) and had a blown main fuse (fortunately on the down-hill section and was able to coast through multiple lanes of traffic to a stop at the side of the road).
> Why did they go for paddle shifting instead of a standard foot shifter??
As far as the rider is concerned, this seems similar to Honda's DCT bikes: automatic dual-clutch transmission, which can be either fully-auto or (mostly) rider-controlled.
I'd argue that it's better for muscle-memory to have a different setup. My regular bike is of the DCT persuasion, so having different controls allows me switch my mind when I ride a regular bike. I once rode a rental with a quickshifter [0], and after longer stretches I'd forget to grab the clutch when stopping or starting.
---
[0] A quickshifter isn't an automatic gearbox, but an augmentation of a manual one. Since motorbikes gears are unsynchronized, you can do clutchless gear changes by accelerating or cutting the gas briefly and simply pushing or pressing on the gear control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickshifter
As far as the rider is concerned, this seems similar to Honda's DCT bikes: automatic dual-clutch transmission, which can be either fully-auto or (mostly) rider-controlled.
I'd argue that it's better for muscle-memory to have a different setup. My regular bike is of the DCT persuasion, so having different controls allows me switch my mind when I ride a regular bike. I once rode a rental with a quickshifter [0], and after longer stretches I'd forget to grab the clutch when stopping or starting.
---
[0] A quickshifter isn't an automatic gearbox, but an augmentation of a manual one. Since motorbikes gears are unsynchronized, you can do clutchless gear changes by accelerating or cutting the gas briefly and simply pushing or pressing on the gear control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickshifter
> Why not just get a full electric like the Zero?
Same reason I still like the idea of hybrid cars. In the cities, where people live and breath, you remove most of the pollution/wear on the engine, and on the highway you get more range and keep the engine at its sweet spot
Same reason I still like the idea of hybrid cars. In the cities, where people live and breath, you remove most of the pollution/wear on the engine, and on the highway you get more range and keep the engine at its sweet spot
I loved my Prius (sadly had to move internationally and give up on that car) and am very interested in a hybrid m/c (more in a standard/ADV kind one like the Versys though), particularly with such a 'stealth mode' for places where m/c aren't welcomed. I would have thought, that the additional weight would make it a losing proposition for m/c. Glad Kawasaki proved me wrong.
Lot of focus on mpg here. I couldn’t even tell you what the mpg on any of my 3 bikes is. It’s so unimportant to most riders.
Most interesting to me is the Ninja 7 smoking a zx10r, for a few hundred feet off the line, granted. Picture of exciting shit to come perhaps.
Most interesting to me is the Ninja 7 smoking a zx10r, for a few hundred feet off the line, granted. Picture of exciting shit to come perhaps.
7.5mi range at 40 mph = about 5C discharge rate. Pretty high. 29 lb battery, 27.2AH 48V = about 100 WH per kg. Sounds like LFP which I guess is a good thing.
I wonder why the electronic shifting is necessary.
They wouldn't have opted for such a radical shift (no pun indented) in the way you control a bike unless there is a reason. Could it be because the control system of the motor needs to be aware of shifts ? I don't think so, as the response time is so low that it could detect the shift and act accordingly.
It could make sense that an electric motor which is not directly control needs to throttle down after an upshift, as traditional ICEs bog down because of the higher torque requirement when the RPMs go down, while the motor could just plough through, lifting the front and lowering your butt on the asphalt if you're not going straight.
Also curious why they opted for a TFT, and why is the design so.. meh in my opinion.
Anyway, it is great to see innovation like that in motorcycles.
They wouldn't have opted for such a radical shift (no pun indented) in the way you control a bike unless there is a reason. Could it be because the control system of the motor needs to be aware of shifts ? I don't think so, as the response time is so low that it could detect the shift and act accordingly.
It could make sense that an electric motor which is not directly control needs to throttle down after an upshift, as traditional ICEs bog down because of the higher torque requirement when the RPMs go down, while the motor could just plough through, lifting the front and lowering your butt on the asphalt if you're not going straight.
Also curious why they opted for a TFT, and why is the design so.. meh in my opinion.
Anyway, it is great to see innovation like that in motorcycles.
Computer control of the transmission (and engine) is likely necessary because it is a parallel hybrid: to charge the battery and to seamlessly switch between power sources, a computer needs to control the throttle, clutch, and shifting based on long term goals like maintaining a certain charge level, and optimizing the fraction of power coming from each motor, that are invisible and orthogonal to what the rider would want for controlling the bike.
I understand why the ICE throttle, but why the transmission ?
Regardless of which gear you're at, the control input from the driver should dictate the power output, and it is up to the control system to figure out the split based on current conditions like state of charge, setpoints etc.
What am I missing ?
Regardless of which gear you're at, the control input from the driver should dictate the power output, and it is up to the control system to figure out the split based on current conditions like state of charge, setpoints etc.
What am I missing ?
For example, to shut off the gas motor without drag while seamlessly switching to EV power, the clutch has to be auto engaged. Another example is the opposite, if the battery is getting low and needs to be charged, the transmission needs to downshift to a lower gear at the same moment the drag from charging is engaged, or the bike will not have enough torque to maintain speed.
Since the transmission is not just for driving the bike, but is also the connection between the charging generator and the engine, it’s automatic control is necessary as part of managing the battery level.
Now if you had an old fashioned simple EV system like the first Honda Insight, where the electric motor and gas engine are directly connected and can’t spin independently, in that case you can have a regular manual transmission, as those vehicles did. However, they are much less efficient and versatile, and don’t have a useful EV only mode.
Since the transmission is not just for driving the bike, but is also the connection between the charging generator and the engine, it’s automatic control is necessary as part of managing the battery level.
Now if you had an old fashioned simple EV system like the first Honda Insight, where the electric motor and gas engine are directly connected and can’t spin independently, in that case you can have a regular manual transmission, as those vehicles did. However, they are much less efficient and versatile, and don’t have a useful EV only mode.
> Since the transmission is not just for driving the bike, but is also the connection between the charging generator and the engine, it’s automatic control is necessary as part of managing the battery level.
Is it ? The article mentions "Integrated Starter Generator (ISG), which saves weight by combining the functions of the starter motor and generator"
Also, in the "ECO-HYBRID" you have the both the options of the auto and manual shifting, with EV only mode in low speed.
I just don't understand why the motor and ICE are not connected directly but with two clutches, leaving the rest of the powertrain to the control of the user and having the ECU meddle with the throttle, clutches and power to the motor.
Anyway, thanks for the info !
Is it ? The article mentions "Integrated Starter Generator (ISG), which saves weight by combining the functions of the starter motor and generator"
Also, in the "ECO-HYBRID" you have the both the options of the auto and manual shifting, with EV only mode in low speed.
I just don't understand why the motor and ICE are not connected directly but with two clutches, leaving the rest of the powertrain to the control of the user and having the ECU meddle with the throttle, clutches and power to the motor.
Anyway, thanks for the info !
I'm confused now about the ISG also. I suspect it serves as a 12v alternator for lights, etc. and the main battery charging is done through the hybrid motor, but it's hard to tell from the limited info in the article. Further confusing is that the EV only mode is supposed to work up to "gear 4" which suggests perhaps the motor is before the transmission, in a manner similar to what you suggested with two clutches.
Good catch with the maximum gear !
I guess we will have to wait for more information.. I trust they know what they are doing :)
I guess we will have to wait for more information.. I trust they know what they are doing :)
Two more clutches to wear and be replaced adds weight, space, maintenance, and cost. Motorcycles are an art in throwing away assemblies that aren't necessary.
Walking mode sounds kewl—reverse.
In other news EV bikes are banned on all Australian race tracks. Dont know about cars, but probably same. Sucks for Zero owners.
Wait, why? What's the reasoning?
It's cause the track has to shut down for a fire. Yes maybe they can figure out a way to get the burning EV bike off the track but if they can't get it out they probably still have to stay shut down for a while.
I used to go to lots of track days and have sat through both emergency medical shut-downs and fire & chemical spill shut-downs.
At least for motorcycles the way the race track works is you have a bunch of people who either pay for a track day or for race entries. Depending on how much they are willing to pay you either get 1 or 2 ambulances and EMT crews and you have a certain size fire crew and this has to be factored into the pricing.
If you have 1 EMT crew + ambulance and someone has an accident IME the track shuts down and no one can ride again until the ambulance returns from the hospital. While it's shut down all the customers are wasting money and considering whether they want to come back.
It's the same thing with a fire. But an ICE motorcycle doesn't take very long to put out and get off the track. If the EV takes even an hour to put the fire out and get it off the track it wrecks the schedule for the whole day as you have races or sessions that are shut down. IME an ICE fire was a 20 minute delay. That's one missed track day session or one race that has to be rescheduled (amateur races are short). A 1-hour EV fire would cancel 2+ races/sessions, and realistically do we actually think the EV fire is put out in 1 hour? ICE motorcycles go out on the track with barely any fuel at all, especially in races they go out with minimal fuel to save weight, so the fires go out quick.
I used to go to lots of track days and have sat through both emergency medical shut-downs and fire & chemical spill shut-downs.
At least for motorcycles the way the race track works is you have a bunch of people who either pay for a track day or for race entries. Depending on how much they are willing to pay you either get 1 or 2 ambulances and EMT crews and you have a certain size fire crew and this has to be factored into the pricing.
If you have 1 EMT crew + ambulance and someone has an accident IME the track shuts down and no one can ride again until the ambulance returns from the hospital. While it's shut down all the customers are wasting money and considering whether they want to come back.
It's the same thing with a fire. But an ICE motorcycle doesn't take very long to put out and get off the track. If the EV takes even an hour to put the fire out and get it off the track it wrecks the schedule for the whole day as you have races or sessions that are shut down. IME an ICE fire was a 20 minute delay. That's one missed track day session or one race that has to be rescheduled (amateur races are short). A 1-hour EV fire would cancel 2+ races/sessions, and realistically do we actually think the EV fire is put out in 1 hour? ICE motorcycles go out on the track with barely any fuel at all, especially in races they go out with minimal fuel to save weight, so the fires go out quick.
Wait, I think its New Zealand, but AU might follow. Something about lack of infrastructure/regulation for putting down EV fires.
That doesn't really make sense for motorcycles, tbh. It barely makes sense for the cars, but they at least have significantly larger batteries.
A freaking small electric scooter caught fire recently, it took fire department few hours to even contain it, they were not able to actually put out flames.
Maybe less than ideal procedure, but electric stuff getting on fire is a massive risk and regulators recognize it as such, especially when not out in the open.
Maybe less than ideal procedure, but electric stuff getting on fire is a massive risk and regulators recognize it as such, especially when not out in the open.
How is that even possible? Was it located somewhere that limited their ability to bring in water?
I just can't imagine a small scooter being that difficult to contain. Usually reignition is the big risk here rather than containment.
I just can't imagine a small scooter being that difficult to contain. Usually reignition is the big risk here rather than containment.
[deleted]
I've owned Japanese and German bikes from 300cc to 1000cc.
This hits a sweet spot of weight, speed, and price for me that's hard to match. Which is to say that 500 lbs. is as heavy as my Ninja SX 1000, but adds a reverse gear without lifting the front wheel at 100 MPH in third gear - not a good survival strategy for someone my age.
I'm still concerned about the weight, but in my tight garage, reverse will make a huge difference in maneuverability for the aged weakling that I am.
The EV range is nearly exactly what I need in the urban area in which I live, but the ICE makes mom's house in the sticks commutable on the weekend without needing to fuel up or charge.
That last part is the deal maker for me since just about any electric either makes the 100 mile round trip impossible without a recharge, or the purchase price so expensive I'd pass since a cage is cheaper and I'd be better off to spend the money electrifying my fixed gear bicycle.