Tokyo – Salary Expectations
43 comments
European freelance SWE here. I worked in Japan in your field for a number of years in the past decade. Your idea is utterly crazy. You are making 170K EUR in a low cost european locale=you are in a great position, especially in the current market conditions. Japan is like no.26 on the list of best-paying countries for IT skills. Meaning: Japan does NOT pay. Your expectations are simply unrealistic (and let's not get started on the value of JPY, which is at its lowest in decades), and you will need to be prepeared to take a MASSIVE pay cut. The fact that you are considering moving there with your family without doing the necessary due diligence is worrying, as it adds a whole extra layer of complexity that is not to be underestimated. Japan is welcoming to visitors. It is NOT welcoming to foreigners who come to stay. Japanese companies are also something else, and if you don't have experience with them, I would certainly not jump head-first.
In short: as others have said, if you are interested in the "cultural aspects", travel there, do your freelance work remotely from there, but for the love of all that is good, don't move there with your wife and kids BEFORE you have tested out the waters exentisively. You will thank me later.
I don't know your exact area of expertise, but the salaries for software engineering in Tokyo tend to range between 4M for a junior to 12M for a senior. Some big companies (especially in finance) may go as far as ~15M, but it's pretty exceptional.
Unless you have a specifically rare expertise, I do not think it is realistic to ask 20M, it will probably make the company reject your profile without negociation.
Now if you go the freelance route, it's probably feasible (but not necessarily easy, it depends a lot on your Japanese level and how much you want to work and can handle context switching), but you'd need a plan to get an appropriate visa first.
Source: I have been living here for 5 years, AMA.
Unless you have a specifically rare expertise, I do not think it is realistic to ask 20M, it will probably make the company reject your profile without negociation.
Now if you go the freelance route, it's probably feasible (but not necessarily easy, it depends a lot on your Japanese level and how much you want to work and can handle context switching), but you'd need a plan to get an appropriate visa first.
Source: I have been living here for 5 years, AMA.
That's kind of low ngl.
You cannot compare just the raw salary using the conversion rate, the cost of living is different everywhere.
In Tokyo those salaries are enough to live like a king, more than most big cities in the world.
Here you can get a decent family house close to a station for about 100~150k per month (and even buy one for the same range in loan).
No need to own and pay for a car because the public transportation is amazing.
Pension and healthcare are all fairly cheap and automatically handled for you.
Except for education which is super expensive, it's pretty easy as a senior engineer to end up saving 300~500k every month with just a single normal job.
In Tokyo those salaries are enough to live like a king, more than most big cities in the world.
Here you can get a decent family house close to a station for about 100~150k per month (and even buy one for the same range in loan).
No need to own and pay for a car because the public transportation is amazing.
Pension and healthcare are all fairly cheap and automatically handled for you.
Except for education which is super expensive, it's pretty easy as a senior engineer to end up saving 300~500k every month with just a single normal job.
If your self employed income is 170,000 euros, then you might want to either look into the digital nomad visa that is coming out in April or the startup visa
I'd personally recommend the startup visa as it's still fairly unknown and easy to get considering your credentials
https://shibuya-startup-support.jp/startup-visa
I'd personally recommend the startup visa as it's still fairly unknown and easy to get considering your credentials
https://shibuya-startup-support.jp/startup-visa
I've lived and worked in Tokyo and Japan for the last few years.
In my experience, most Japanese companies offer salaries up to 10M-12M yen for the most experienced software engineers.
If you are aiming higher than this, you may have a small selection of companies available. In my personal experience, the only engineers I have seen earning 20M or more were at Google or Mercari.
You will undoubtedly have more options for work in your current situation.
In my experience, most Japanese companies offer salaries up to 10M-12M yen for the most experienced software engineers.
If you are aiming higher than this, you may have a small selection of companies available. In my personal experience, the only engineers I have seen earning 20M or more were at Google or Mercari.
You will undoubtedly have more options for work in your current situation.
170,000 Euro is ~28M Yen. Why would you take this big a loss and add very large expenses for a much worse work life balance?
exactly, the OP should just take a family vacation 2x per year to japan if they like it that much instead
right, i heard japan has no work life balance
I worked with couple of Japanese companies, people are very nice, respectful and hard working, but the work culture is not suitable for family life...
Does it apply also for foreigners? Maybe it's more of a thing for japanese people?
I didn't work directly under Japanese management, only indirectly or as a b2b partner. I was never told directly to work longer hours as a result, there was some pressure from non japanese intermediaries.
There are also some unspoken expectations and etiquette rules that should be observed, which might create an environment heavier on work side.
Most of my understanding of the work culture comes from people I talked to who worked directly under Japanese management, and it can get tough, I never heard of someone directly being confronted, but heard about more subtle ways to ensure performance and obedience.
Its only my guess living and working in Japan this would be on completely another level.
There are also some unspoken expectations and etiquette rules that should be observed, which might create an environment heavier on work side.
Most of my understanding of the work culture comes from people I talked to who worked directly under Japanese management, and it can get tough, I never heard of someone directly being confronted, but heard about more subtle ways to ensure performance and obedience.
Its only my guess living and working in Japan this would be on completely another level.
Japan can be rigid, expensive with no work life balance.
Not your question, but I wouldn’t move.
Not your question, but I wouldn’t move.
especially when already making 170.000€ in Europe with the freedom of self employment...
I think it heavily depends on the company you're going to work for.
More modern Japanese tech companies may pay up to 20-25m, depending on the position. The top paying company is almost certainly Woven Planet, but Mercari, PayPay, and a few other companies may also be willing to pay that (I worked for PayPay as a point of reference here, and also was in negotiation with Woven).
If it's Rakuten or Line, you're probably going to be get offers on the lower end (maybe 12-13m). If it's Rakuten, I highly recommend asking folks outside of the company that aren't a recruiter about it before accepting.
It's worth noting that people will probably tell you that it's not appropriate to negotiate in Japan, but they are wrong. You should negotiate, and you should ideally start with a high asking, if you're going to go first (you should try avoiding going first). I recommend having your recruiter give you the rough range they are thinking, then tell the recruiter roughly what you're expecting. If you have offers from other companies, your negotiations will go considerably better, especially since you can play the "if you offer x I'll stop negotiations with everyone and sign right now" card. I was able to increase my initial offer by 60% during negotiation.
If you're unhappy with your salary (or company) after arriving, I'd recommend looking around after you get your visa, and after your probation period. Ideally you'll get a 5 year working visa. It's generally not tied to your company (though some of the visas that get you permanent residency faster are tied to your employer). I recommend looking at western companies with offices in Japan (Meta, Google, etc). They can often pay 2x what Japanese companies will pay, especially for senior engineers as the local market doesn't have a lot of senior engineers to hire.
More modern Japanese tech companies may pay up to 20-25m, depending on the position. The top paying company is almost certainly Woven Planet, but Mercari, PayPay, and a few other companies may also be willing to pay that (I worked for PayPay as a point of reference here, and also was in negotiation with Woven).
If it's Rakuten or Line, you're probably going to be get offers on the lower end (maybe 12-13m). If it's Rakuten, I highly recommend asking folks outside of the company that aren't a recruiter about it before accepting.
It's worth noting that people will probably tell you that it's not appropriate to negotiate in Japan, but they are wrong. You should negotiate, and you should ideally start with a high asking, if you're going to go first (you should try avoiding going first). I recommend having your recruiter give you the rough range they are thinking, then tell the recruiter roughly what you're expecting. If you have offers from other companies, your negotiations will go considerably better, especially since you can play the "if you offer x I'll stop negotiations with everyone and sign right now" card. I was able to increase my initial offer by 60% during negotiation.
If you're unhappy with your salary (or company) after arriving, I'd recommend looking around after you get your visa, and after your probation period. Ideally you'll get a 5 year working visa. It's generally not tied to your company (though some of the visas that get you permanent residency faster are tied to your employer). I recommend looking at western companies with offices in Japan (Meta, Google, etc). They can often pay 2x what Japanese companies will pay, especially for senior engineers as the local market doesn't have a lot of senior engineers to hire.
By the way, the first link on Google for “Japan developer salary” is https://www.tokyodev.com/articles/software-developer-salarie... which is based on an annual survey of developer salaries.
I've worked as a programmer in Tokyo. In general programmer salaries are much lower. I think 50,000€ - 60,000€ per year would be considered a very good salary at a Japanese company.
Worth looking into the overtime hours at the company you are applying for. I worked at a traditional Japanese company and employees were expected to work unpaid overtime every day. One day a month was "no overtime day". Every other day employees worked late.
To earn more and avoid the unpaid overtime culture, you'll have better luck at a foreign company. However I don't think you'll earn that much more. If you want to maintain 170.000€ per year, your best bet is to maintain your current clients and work remotely in Japan somehow.
Worth looking into the overtime hours at the company you are applying for. I worked at a traditional Japanese company and employees were expected to work unpaid overtime every day. One day a month was "no overtime day". Every other day employees worked late.
To earn more and avoid the unpaid overtime culture, you'll have better luck at a foreign company. However I don't think you'll earn that much more. If you want to maintain 170.000€ per year, your best bet is to maintain your current clients and work remotely in Japan somehow.
Thank you all for your responses. I read all of them and spent time thinking about what you said.
To answer some of your questions: I live in Germany. Although I know that my income is quite high in comparison to many others (even better developers) and I’m very grateful to the people on my clients side who make this possible, I’m looking for a way to improve my family’s life in other aspects. Me and especially my wife don’t feel “to be at home” here where we live. She’s not very accepted culturally. Tbh, I would prefer New Zealand, Canada or even the US because of the welcoming culture and nature but I don’t know how to get a working permit (visa) as a regular software engineer.
To answer some of your questions: I live in Germany. Although I know that my income is quite high in comparison to many others (even better developers) and I’m very grateful to the people on my clients side who make this possible, I’m looking for a way to improve my family’s life in other aspects. Me and especially my wife don’t feel “to be at home” here where we live. She’s not very accepted culturally. Tbh, I would prefer New Zealand, Canada or even the US because of the welcoming culture and nature but I don’t know how to get a working permit (visa) as a regular software engineer.
Why Japan in particular? Do you have any familiarity with Japanese culture and more importantly the language itself?
it's gonna make it that much more difficult for you to integrate into society if you have no experience with the language. I'm not saying it's insurmountable (I learned Chinese through full immersion by living in Taiwan for years) but it's also a fairly challenging language to learn given it has two phonetic alphabets and a pictographic element as well in the form of Kanji. Definitely a harder language for a Westerner to learn given there's no overlap with Romance languages.
it's gonna make it that much more difficult for you to integrate into society if you have no experience with the language. I'm not saying it's insurmountable (I learned Chinese through full immersion by living in Taiwan for years) but it's also a fairly challenging language to learn given it has two phonetic alphabets and a pictographic element as well in the form of Kanji. Definitely a harder language for a Westerner to learn given there's no overlap with Romance languages.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your and/or your wife's ethnicity?
Japan (and East Asia in general) are not exactly the most...accepting places to outsiders.
That's not to say you'll be treated rudely or with hostility. People are in general, quite nice and polite. But you'll always be "that outsider/foreigner".
In one respect, this is advantageous as it could shield you from some of the worst aspects of the corporate culture by way of the "oh, it's because he's the foreigner" excuse. But by the same token, you'll also always be "the foreigner".
Japan (and East Asia in general) are not exactly the most...accepting places to outsiders.
That's not to say you'll be treated rudely or with hostility. People are in general, quite nice and polite. But you'll always be "that outsider/foreigner".
In one respect, this is advantageous as it could shield you from some of the worst aspects of the corporate culture by way of the "oh, it's because he's the foreigner" excuse. But by the same token, you'll also always be "the foreigner".
I’d explore other places in Europe first with your income. Not sure what exactly is that is pushing you guys away but you’re not the first I hear to leave Germany for those reasons.
i studied at an ivy league school after graduation in europe. i also interned in the bay area. i have now spent over 10 years in CA and can tell you that i still am not accepted and still get discriminated despite being white and with excellent speaking and writing skills and with degrees. people are nice but it is safe to assume people are fake until the contrary is proven. i think people in general underestimate how difficult it is to assimilate and even then you will remain the outsider.
Canada should be very simple to get a work permit
This may help you if you want to come to the US on a work visa.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
Look for the bigger companies that are used to hiring h1b workers and have processes already in place. Microsoft, Google, Uber, etc.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
Look for the bigger companies that are used to hiring h1b workers and have processes already in place. Microsoft, Google, Uber, etc.
I'm not sure this is related, but you may get some (unrelated) tips from patio11 "Doing Business In Japan" https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan... (HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8573992 | 818 points | Nov 7, 2014 | 308 comments)
I don't know your work/life balance but 170.000€ per year as a self-employed developer in a European country with a low cost of living is a unicorn position.
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Do note the jpy has lost a lot of value compared to eur (or usd for that matter).
That might mean what is seen as fair compensation in jpy is rather low when converted back to euro.
That might mean what is seen as fair compensation in jpy is rather low when converted back to euro.
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I don't know about compared to Europe but it's much cheaper to live in Japan compared to the US and as such salaries are generally lower but quite adequate especially in tech or banking. I lived there for 6 years after college (I had no offer at the time and just went over and started looking for jobs) and I feel it was a great way to get out of the US cultural bubble and it's hard to put a price on that.
That’s probably double what a developer in Japan would get for similar experience unless you are bringing some exceptional talent to the company.
what kind of work were you doing in europe making 170k? that is about 84 eur per hour full time. to fill your sales channel you would spend 30% of your time hunting gigs so you actually have a 120 eur hourly rate if you only work 70% of the time. so curious whether you were in finance and in what country.
If you’re working long term contracts you definitely won’t be spending 30% of your time doing sales. And €85-100/h is not unheard of, I’d even go as far as to say that €85/h is on the lower end in some places if you have particular experience.
you can lose a contract anytime so if you want to remain employed you have to keep the funnel full
also working for one client is being a fake contractor risking reclassification and social security penalties
also working for one client is being a fake contractor risking reclassification and social security penalties
Sure, but my experience is that once you’re somewhat established this is not something that takes nearly 30% of your time. It’s more about passively keeping up with your network, and work tends to find you.
Rules for working with one client really differs from country to country as well, even within the EU. I believe Germany is quite strict on it but no problems at all in Sweden for example.
Rules for working with one client really differs from country to country as well, even within the EU. I believe Germany is quite strict on it but no problems at all in Sweden for example.
Why contractors with multiple clients are more privileged than single-client ones? If a person is willing to give up the EU-ean employee safety and benefits, i.e. exchange that with pure cash and become a contractor - even for the current employer, that should be a personal choice, not something that government should be involved.
there are laws in EU countries … nothing you can do about that
Check out [1]. 20 million YEN seems like on the upper end of the spectrum, so not impossible but definitely a good salary. Take into account that work culture in Japan is a bit insane from what I've heard from a friend born and living there, as a freelancer you probably work a lot already but don't expect work-life balance to be great. But yeah, I get it, I'd also love to live in Japan for a while, so why not, you can always move back and it might be a very enriching experience for your wife and children as well :)
1: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/japan
1: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/japan
Setting lofty demands right from the start can potentially ruffle the feathers of the hiring manager and establish an unfavorable tone for your tenure, which isn't the most auspicious beginning. However, there may still be opportunities to discuss a higher compensation package, perhaps even reaching a million yen above the initial offer, provided it harmonizes with your priorities. It's important to recognize that expectations often soar when surpassing the norm, especially if your request surpasses your manager's earnings. Be prepared for a different set of benchmarks compared to your peers, which may prove vexing. Welcome to the intricacies of navigating employment dynamics in Japan.
I'm thinking about moving to Tokyo with my family.
I have been accepted (but the salary has not yet been agreed) for a senior C++ role for a well-known Japanese company. The move would be very appealing to me, especially from a cultural point of view. I have a Masters Degree and over 12 years of professional development experience. At home, in Europe, with a very low cost of living, I have an income of about 170.000€ per year as a self-employed developer.
I have two children, but they would have to go to an international school. I did some research: for both of them, that's about 4 million YEN (approx. 24,000€) a year.
I'm thinking about asking for 20 million YEN.
What do you think?