Oystercatchers are waging war on NYC's beach drones(apnews.com)
apnews.com
Oystercatchers are waging war on NYC's beach drones
https://apnews.com/article/new-york-drones-shorebirds-beach-safety-c2cbfb6ca03f771082ff57a28701f915
67 comments
These are public beaches for recreation.
And the drones aren't being flown by beachgoers, but by the city for public safety -- looking for sharks and swimmers that are too far out.
And the drones aren't being flown by beachgoers, but by the city for public safety -- looking for sharks and swimmers that are too far out.
The entire article is about the potentially deleterious effect they are having on local birds. Right now its understudied and evidently not been used for rescues which puts the entire program into question.
Sure but the commenter I was replying to wasn't talking about any of that.
Yes, the sound of drones is very hard to tolerate.
On the plus side, maybe the drones at the beach increase safety by discouraging people from going there.
On the plus side, maybe the drones at the beach increase safety by discouraging people from going there.
> the city struggles to hire lifeguards to staff its beaches
They don't go into detail, but surely a fleet of drones with life raft deployment capability is a lot more expensive than just hiring more lifeguards?
I suspect if they put the drone budget into lifeguard pay, they'd find quickly they no longer have a problem recruiting.
They don't go into detail, but surely a fleet of drones with life raft deployment capability is a lot more expensive than just hiring more lifeguards?
I suspect if they put the drone budget into lifeguard pay, they'd find quickly they no longer have a problem recruiting.
But that sounds boring and reasonable. Who cares that the whole project costs a lot, is apparently wildlife endangering, and has dubious benefits. Drones go brrrr, look like fancy future tech and I can put it in my CV to impress my next employer.
That "brrr" sound is from the rotors which allow a drone to fly around like a goddamn magic wizard floating eyeball spell. I don't know about you, but I can't levitate over the water and fly over the beach at 25+ mph. If you could do that, you'd have one helluva CV with which to impress an employer and wouldn't need be all jealous about it.
Where are they going to find them? Ocean lifeguarding isn't an easy certification that any kid can do out of high school like the Red Cross pool lifeguard stuff.
Most of the people who have it live on the West coast or down south in Florida, where most of the training programs are. Why would they move up to NYC where the weather sucks, they can only work half the year, and the cost of living is through the roof?
Most of the people who have it live on the West coast or down south in Florida, where most of the training programs are. Why would they move up to NYC where the weather sucks, they can only work half the year, and the cost of living is through the roof?
Because the city would presumably be paying them a living wage for a full year's work.
But that’s more expensive than the drones so here we are, no?
Yeah, I mean if that's your metric then so be it. I think people might be appalled because they value more than cost.
That is the metric of people who handle money and have a budget. Which happens to be the people that make decisions in situations like these and many others. You can be appalled all you want but if your idea is not affordable by the city is just not gonna get done.
New York City has no trouble staffing a great number of niche specialists. Somehow the parks department can find FAA licensed drone operators, but they are unable to find some lifeguards? And the issue is not just ocean lifeguard certification. The city also has a shortage of lifeguards for their pools which now need to operate at ~30% capacity during the summer.
The issues fall with the lifeguard union combined with absurd legal/safety requirements combined with rampant mismanagement. Frankly it is pretty upsetting to go to the beach in Far Rockaway, where you must be corralled into the one jetty that has all the lifeguards (spaced about 50 feet apart). The parks department of course has resources to deploys people with whistles to walk up the beach and yell at anyone getting too close to the water.
The issues fall with the lifeguard union combined with absurd legal/safety requirements combined with rampant mismanagement. Frankly it is pretty upsetting to go to the beach in Far Rockaway, where you must be corralled into the one jetty that has all the lifeguards (spaced about 50 feet apart). The parks department of course has resources to deploys people with whistles to walk up the beach and yell at anyone getting too close to the water.
Is it more expensive?
Hiring lots more lifeguards for an entire summer is seriously expensive.
I'm having a hard time imagining how a couple of drone operators plus the drones is more expensive than, say, 20 more lifeguards.
Not to mention the drones do things that lifeguards can't do, like search operations and shark detection.
Hiring lots more lifeguards for an entire summer is seriously expensive.
I'm having a hard time imagining how a couple of drone operators plus the drones is more expensive than, say, 20 more lifeguards.
Not to mention the drones do things that lifeguards can't do, like search operations and shark detection.
Because the program is run by the NYPD, so already high cost. Who purchase the drones from some contractor at most likely elevated cost. This doesn’t account for all the training costs on specialized equipment.
Hiring life guards for a few months is a drop in the bucket that has proven more results than drones dropping a raft operated by an organization that doesn’t even teach CPR.
Hiring life guards for a few months is a drop in the bucket that has proven more results than drones dropping a raft operated by an organization that doesn’t even teach CPR.
> Hiring life guards for a few months is a drop in the bucket
Where do you get that idea? Lifeguards aren't cheap. You don't just need two -- you need 20, 40, whatever. That's major money.
On the other hand, the drone operators are similarly only for the same few months.
Again, this idea that a couple of drone operators and equipment costs more than, say, 20 or more full-time lifeguards doesn't make any sense.
These are just drones. They're not missiles that cost $100K apiece or something where you go through several a week.
Where do you get that idea? Lifeguards aren't cheap. You don't just need two -- you need 20, 40, whatever. That's major money.
On the other hand, the drone operators are similarly only for the same few months.
Again, this idea that a couple of drone operators and equipment costs more than, say, 20 or more full-time lifeguards doesn't make any sense.
These are just drones. They're not missiles that cost $100K apiece or something where you go through several a week.
>These are just drones. They're not missiles that cost $100K apiece
Well https://www.twz.com/air/rogue-1-is-one-of-the-marine-corps-n...
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1colo0...
Meanwhile Ukrainians are DIYing similar drones (including thrmal vision and up to 40km range) for under $1K.
Well https://www.twz.com/air/rogue-1-is-one-of-the-marine-corps-n...
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1colo0...
Meanwhile Ukrainians are DIYing similar drones (including thrmal vision and up to 40km range) for under $1K.
[0] NYC drones fleet continues to expand The NYPD paid $87,750 in June for a Lemur 2 drone manufactured by Seattle-based drone company BRINC
That was just for two drones one year ago. The NYPD has many more than 2 drones. That doesn’t include operator salaries, benefits, training, etc. Furthermore there is no reason why the NYPD needs to be the one budgeting and handling this at all. This is just another land grab by a very bloated and out of control crony organization.
[0] https://gothamist.com/news/the-nypd-is-using-drones-3-times-...
That was just for two drones one year ago. The NYPD has many more than 2 drones. That doesn’t include operator salaries, benefits, training, etc. Furthermore there is no reason why the NYPD needs to be the one budgeting and handling this at all. This is just another land grab by a very bloated and out of control crony organization.
[0] https://gothamist.com/news/the-nypd-is-using-drones-3-times-...
Effective life guards often need to be well trained and physically selective, and observant and not distracted over a pretty long time. Hiring untrained, minimum wage teenagers may tick the box of "Has life guard", but not necessarily "/Effective/ life guard"
So, is it really cheaper to "just get more effective life guards?"
So, is it really cheaper to "just get more effective life guards?"
I would think a drone operator and service contracts are a lot more expensive than a lifeguards hourly
Sure but it's not 1 to 1, that's the point.
I would think it would be cheaper on an hourly basis than twenty lifeguards, or more. These are big beaches. That's what we're talking about.
I would think it would be cheaper on an hourly basis than twenty lifeguards, or more. These are big beaches. That's what we're talking about.
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> I suspect if they put the drone budget into lifeguard pay, they'd find quickly they no longer have a problem recruiting.
The problem may be Management-Class people who think it is unethical to pay above the bottom quartile in pay or to accept less than the top quartile in talent.
I believe the Management-Class is the cause of most of our problems.
I define Management-Class as people who yell at and fire people whose jobs they could never do.
The problem may be Management-Class people who think it is unethical to pay above the bottom quartile in pay or to accept less than the top quartile in talent.
I believe the Management-Class is the cause of most of our problems.
I define Management-Class as people who yell at and fire people whose jobs they could never do.
Drones are one of the worst things to happen to birdwatching
If they don't have enough lifeguards on duty, how are the drones supposed to work? They find a person drowning, then communicate that to a life guard who is so far away they can't do anything about it? I get how they could spot sharks in the area and send a signal that can be followed up on, but a person drowning is a pretty time-sensitive situation, so if you don't have someone on hand, what do you do about it?
It explains in the article, it drops an inflatable raft.
And then lifeguards have vehicles to get there as well. They're not limited to running on foot.
And then lifeguards have vehicles to get there as well. They're not limited to running on foot.
How does a raft administer cpr?
I guess the goal is that the drone can intervene before CPR is necessary.
But there's always a limit in capabilities - providing better access to some help is clearly still of benefit, providing faster access to limited capabilities over a wider area may be a better end result than the same resources being used for higher capabilities, but more limited reach.
But there's always a limit in capabilities - providing better access to some help is clearly still of benefit, providing faster access to limited capabilities over a wider area may be a better end result than the same resources being used for higher capabilities, but more limited reach.
The same argument could be made in the other direction though. More, but worse, coverage could lead to behavioral changes that result in worse outcomes. Specifically, people feel more confident and go swimming when normally they'd only do so in lifeguarded waters.
Really we need to wait and see what the data shows (if they review it), as the article states for now they haven't performed any rescues.
Really we need to wait and see what the data shows (if they review it), as the article states for now they haven't performed any rescues.
I really doubt that right now, anyone is going swimming when they wouldn't have otherwise because they think a drone will rescue them.
Maybe many years from now when drone rescues become commonplace. But it's not exactly something to worry about at the moment.
Maybe many years from now when drone rescues become commonplace. But it's not exactly something to worry about at the moment.
I hate quadcopter drones like you wouldn't believe. They're so annoying and invasive. I'm glad the birds are pushing back at least.
I hope the birds win.
While tech advances are cool, I secretly do too. Like Mother Nature's vengeance and reminder that technology isn't invulnerable. Now if critters could just disable Russian tanks, the circle would be complete.
Seagulls are underrated IMHO:
* Very good at soaring, expending little energy compared to ducks and other waterbirds.
* Can take off near vertically from water or land, without requiring a long runway like cormorants.
* Highly intelligent including tool use (https://susancunninghambooks.com/blog/2018/8/23/the-secret-l...)
* They will eat almost anything and will employ different techniques from hunting for live prey to opportunistic filching of dead fish and other animals' food.
* They have an enourmous range and are very adaptable. One South American species nests in a waterless desert and brings water and food from the ocean to its young, a distance of up to 100km. (https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc331083/)
* Lifespan of many decades
* Very good at soaring, expending little energy compared to ducks and other waterbirds.
* Can take off near vertically from water or land, without requiring a long runway like cormorants.
* Highly intelligent including tool use (https://susancunninghambooks.com/blog/2018/8/23/the-secret-l...)
* They will eat almost anything and will employ different techniques from hunting for live prey to opportunistic filching of dead fish and other animals' food.
* They have an enourmous range and are very adaptable. One South American species nests in a waterless desert and brings water and food from the ocean to its young, a distance of up to 100km. (https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc331083/)
* Lifespan of many decades
Anecdotally, I'm pretty sure they keep a long memory and can recognize people like corvids are known to do - I used to work near the beach, and a particular seagull would fly up to me, and only me, for a period of about 2 years because I would give him food scraps. Never did it for any of my other coworkers. Was always amazed by that.
One of my co-workers gave a seagull a tortilla one day (out the 5th floor window), and it ended up being our unofficial office mascot for years.
I gave a seagull some snack one day and next thing I knew there were a 100 swarming about me, would not recommend.
Gave a seagull some french fries at the beach. Flock shows up. People downwind were not pleased to be getting pooped on.
Most people seem surprised to learn they live for 30+ years
I saw a Kittiwake gull in Florida once and then the same year visited their nesting grounds in Iceland. I can’t believe such a tiny little bird can fly that far and survive. That being said the one in Florida was probably lost lol
I saw a Kittiwake gull in Florida once and then the same year visited their nesting grounds in Iceland. I can’t believe such a tiny little bird can fly that far and survive. That being said the one in Florida was probably lost lol
they are not seagulls. Link has an update at the end. AP news says they are American oystercatchers
If only we could convince them to drop inflatable life rafts on drowning swimmers... ;)
Could one train birds to be an anti drone defence, perhaps?
Some police forces in the Netherlands were working with anti-drone eagles years ago, though with modern drones I'd be concerned about the eagles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00szWWrTNnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00szWWrTNnE
See Neal Stephenson's latest, Termination Shock. Eagles trained for drone hunting, with 3D-printed claw protections
An excellent book, and exactly what I was thinking of as well.
Birds of prey would probably be better at it and more trainable. I've see way more videos of hawks taking out drones than shore birds.
Maybe hire a falcon will be a service before long
My hearth is with the seagulls here. Hope they develop a hatred towards blueetooth speakers too.
Link to actual AP article instead of Gizmodo ad-bait:
https://apnews.com/article/new-york-drones-shorebirds-beach-...
and, nominative determinism fans, don't miss "said David Bird, a professor of wildlife biology at McGill University"
https://apnews.com/article/new-york-drones-shorebirds-beach-...
and, nominative determinism fans, don't miss "said David Bird, a professor of wildlife biology at McGill University"
Thanks! Url changed from https://gizmodo.com/very-annoyed-seagulls-are-waging-war-on-....
But they aren't seagulls, they're endangered American oystercatchers.
Ok. we've replaced seagulls with oystercatchers in the title above. Thanks!
I'm glad it's more accurate, but now I'm disappointed. The title has me picturing people in wetsuits with harpoons rising from the water and spearing drones out of the sky!
Now the title reads like angry fisherman are fighting them. Why even editorialize the source headline?
Right, not gulls at all. Also, "seagull" is not an ornithologically useful term.
Yeah I have heard lots of birders say that but its just a synonym for “gull”, I don’t see why its bad. They mostly live by the sea, seems fitting to me.
It's not a huge deal, but it misleading. Gulls are widespread over land.
https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ring-billed_Gull/maps-ra...
https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ring-billed_Gull/maps-ra...
Oystercatchers aren’t endangered, they are pretty common. You can find them on any beach on the east coast pretty much.
Updated: They're not actually seagulls. They're oystercatchers.
> We have updated this post to reflect the fact that the birds in this story are not, in fact, seagulls. We regret the error, but also I am not an ornithologist, people.
> We have updated this post to reflect the fact that the birds in this story are not, in fact, seagulls. We regret the error, but also I am not an ornithologist, people.
> are not, in fact, seagulls
Journalists are known to be gullible
Journalists are known to be gullible
Boys or gulls, them's smashing pidgeons.
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I also don’t get why there is no enforcement, although I am guessing it comes down to mundane things like the politics of funding. I recently saw someone flying a drone at a ferry terminal. There are several signs saying that flying drones in the area is illegal per federal law (which was news to me). But it doesn’t matter when there is no one to enforce these laws - they might as well not exist. And as a private citizen, I always find it awkward to call people out on anything - whether it is a drone, or an off-leash dog, or whatever. Forget the awkwardness, some people can be aggressive. I want to be able to rely on public officers to enforce the law.