UK has almost 1M EV chargers, with new public one installed every 25 minutes(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
UK has almost 1M EV chargers, with new public one installed every 25 minutes
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jul/15/electric-vehicle-ev-chargers-uk-installations
124 comments
This might be a very American-centric view but I usually tell people that if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range.
But if you don't, I can imagine there being more stress about charging times, fast chargers, etc.
For road trips, thanks to Tesla's extensive Supercharger network, they are really great for that.
But with more standards (CCS and NACS) becoming pervasive, hopefully this becomes an issue of the past (payments, etc).
My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
But if you don't, I can imagine there being more stress about charging times, fast chargers, etc.
For road trips, thanks to Tesla's extensive Supercharger network, they are really great for that.
But with more standards (CCS and NACS) becoming pervasive, hopefully this becomes an issue of the past (payments, etc).
My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
> Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
It's a good question. I don't know for certain, but my hypothesis would be because of what you and the OP said:
> Destination charging is a thing. Drive somewhere, plug in, do what you came to do, and drive back with enough charge to get home.
> if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range
No one goes to a gas station to hang out, you know? Instead you plug in at work, or the mall, or the restaurant, or just don't bother until you get home. It doesn't make sense to spend your 20+ minute charge time at a gas station.
It's a good question. I don't know for certain, but my hypothesis would be because of what you and the OP said:
> Destination charging is a thing. Drive somewhere, plug in, do what you came to do, and drive back with enough charge to get home.
> if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range
No one goes to a gas station to hang out, you know? Instead you plug in at work, or the mall, or the restaurant, or just don't bother until you get home. It doesn't make sense to spend your 20+ minute charge time at a gas station.
Tesla colocated Superchargers at grocery stores. You have to eat, right? First world problem is the car is done charging before I'm done shopping!
To your point, put chargers at existing locations humans dwell at, the only other use case is highway travel chargers. There are ~110k gas stations left in the US, and I'll argue many of those will not be needed going forward as mobility electrifies [1] [2] [3].
[1] https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing
[2] https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-...
[3] https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations...
To your point, put chargers at existing locations humans dwell at, the only other use case is highway travel chargers. There are ~110k gas stations left in the US, and I'll argue many of those will not be needed going forward as mobility electrifies [1] [2] [3].
[1] https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing
[2] https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-...
[3] https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations...
There are a bunch of reasons why it wouldn't be worth implementing, but it would be cool if you could tell it how long you thought you would be in the store and it could adjust the charging time to be a bit gentler on the battery.
I'm sure it wouldn't get used much (unless the UI was very front and center, and maybe recommended a time based on your previous stops at that charger), and Tesla would be somewhat disincentivized to build it anyway as their goal is to get as many unique cars through the charger as possible, but it would still be neat...
I'm sure it wouldn't get used much (unless the UI was very front and center, and maybe recommended a time based on your previous stops at that charger), and Tesla would be somewhat disincentivized to build it anyway as their goal is to get as many unique cars through the charger as possible, but it would still be neat...
I'm unsure if there is much difference between charging at 50kw vs 150-200kw wrt long term battery longevity (I have primarily supercharged my 100D Model S for ~140k miles, and only experience ~7% pack degradation), although I do pick the V2/150kw chargers to let folks potentially under a time crunch use the V2/250kw chargers (when the station has both due to legacy posts that were expanded, which is common in the area I currently frequent). Also, better to turn the stalls over faster considering amortized capex costs (charging fast = less stalls needed).
We're somewhat spoiled that aggressive volumes of fast DC charging is immaterial on battery pack health in well engineered battery packs, as well as the rate of improvement in battery technology. Don't worry too much about it, enjoy a better UX and simply charge when convenient. Batteries are only going to keep getting better.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over... ("Another Tesla With Over 400,000 Miles On One Battery")
We're somewhat spoiled that aggressive volumes of fast DC charging is immaterial on battery pack health in well engineered battery packs, as well as the rate of improvement in battery technology. Don't worry too much about it, enjoy a better UX and simply charge when convenient. Batteries are only going to keep getting better.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over... ("Another Tesla With Over 400,000 Miles On One Battery")
There are enough stories of taxi/uber drivers who basically only charge at superchargers getting 200,000+ miles out of their Tesla battery that slowing down charge speed to optimize battery life is a minor optimization at best.
What would be really nice is a better way of sharing a charger after you're done charging. My experience is that a Tesla supercharger is often too fast. On a road trip charging stops usually coincide with meals, but a charge takes less time than a nice meal does. The charge is done and idle fees start accumulating when you're halfway through the meal. It's rude to others waiting for the charger to leave it there plugged in. It'd be awesome if there was a way to have two plugs per charger, and a big green light to indicate that the first car is done charging so that anybody pulling into the second stall would get a full speed charge.
What would be really nice is a better way of sharing a charger after you're done charging. My experience is that a Tesla supercharger is often too fast. On a road trip charging stops usually coincide with meals, but a charge takes less time than a nice meal does. The charge is done and idle fees start accumulating when you're halfway through the meal. It's rude to others waiting for the charger to leave it there plugged in. It'd be awesome if there was a way to have two plugs per charger, and a big green light to indicate that the first car is done charging so that anybody pulling into the second stall would get a full speed charge.
That's essentially what they already do. The power feed is shared between neighboring chargers which is why you should leave a space between if there's empty stalls.
e.g. a 250kW charger becomes 125 when two cars are parked next to each other.
It only takes a minute to move your car, I don't really find it that big of a deal.
e.g. a 250kW charger becomes 125 when two cars are parked next to each other.
It only takes a minute to move your car, I don't really find it that big of a deal.
Not if it takes 10 minutes to walk from the restaurant and back.
In my area (a major metro area) there are a bunch of chargers in absolute terms, but very rarely within walking distance of any of my usual destinations.
PlugShare shows 18 total charging stations within a 10 minute drive of my home (only one DCFS). There are none near my grocery store, gym, doctor's office, etc. And I WFH.
If I wasn't able to install a charger at my home, I would be going out of my way for DCFS a couple of times a week and making up ways to kill time.
I hope it'll be different someday, but today is not that day. Or, as the quote goes, "the future has arrived, it's just not evenly distributed yet".
PlugShare shows 18 total charging stations within a 10 minute drive of my home (only one DCFS). There are none near my grocery store, gym, doctor's office, etc. And I WFH.
If I wasn't able to install a charger at my home, I would be going out of my way for DCFS a couple of times a week and making up ways to kill time.
I hope it'll be different someday, but today is not that day. Or, as the quote goes, "the future has arrived, it's just not evenly distributed yet".
I don’t have an electric car but I watched a video of an owner on YouTube doing a roadtrip and he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations. Convenience stores are… convenient. Walmarts are almost as good. Hotel parking lots offer basically no amenities to non-guests though.
Indeed. It'll be interesting to watch the charging ecosystem evolve. I have no idea where we'll end up. Turn gas stations into... little EV charging stations with mini-attractions? Dunno!
> he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations.
I'm not sure I understand, was he complaining when they were in a parking lot, but off a road?
Personally, I see gas stations as convenient to the road, but you are also there for a short time.
If you are charging for a non-trivial amount of time, getting out and doing something else is very nice. Charging while grocery shopping is something I do frequently.
I'm not sure I understand, was he complaining when they were in a parking lot, but off a road?
Personally, I see gas stations as convenient to the road, but you are also there for a short time.
If you are charging for a non-trivial amount of time, getting out and doing something else is very nice. Charging while grocery shopping is something I do frequently.
> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
That will come. This is already happening in the EU. The US is just lagging the rest of the world a bit here with EV adoption and charging infrastructure.
But if you think about it: what happens when you remove 40% of the demand for petrol and diesel from the market? Because that's what happens when those driving the most and the furthest switch to electric: they stop buying lots of petrol and diesel. And early adopters tend to be the ones driving the most. So, demand takes a big hit fairy early in the transition.
What happens is very simple: petrol and diesel stations start losing a lot of business. Until they realize that they have the perfect locations for charging and that people will want to buy from their shops and restaurants while they are charging. So, of course they are going to adapt in a hurry and invest in charging infrastructure as this starts happening.
Long term, petrol and diesel are going to be a minor side hustle for rapid charging stations where most of the revenues come from people waiting for their vehicles to charge buying snacks, refreshments, and other stuff.
That will come. This is already happening in the EU. The US is just lagging the rest of the world a bit here with EV adoption and charging infrastructure.
But if you think about it: what happens when you remove 40% of the demand for petrol and diesel from the market? Because that's what happens when those driving the most and the furthest switch to electric: they stop buying lots of petrol and diesel. And early adopters tend to be the ones driving the most. So, demand takes a big hit fairy early in the transition.
What happens is very simple: petrol and diesel stations start losing a lot of business. Until they realize that they have the perfect locations for charging and that people will want to buy from their shops and restaurants while they are charging. So, of course they are going to adapt in a hurry and invest in charging infrastructure as this starts happening.
Long term, petrol and diesel are going to be a minor side hustle for rapid charging stations where most of the revenues come from people waiting for their vehicles to charge buying snacks, refreshments, and other stuff.
Even when I worked as full-service attendant at a gas station forty years ago (yes, I’m the last of them), the owner told me there was little money in gas sales, the profit came from the other stuff sold. Enough so that we got a commission on stuff like a quart of oil. And full-serve gas was priced such that it paid my meager wages.
My point being, there probably never was a lot of margin on fuel. Which is why I’m surprised that more convenience stores with fuel aren’t putting in chargers because now you’ve got a captive audience for 20 minutes. They’re getting there, though, as I see AM/PM stores with EVGo chargers now in the PNW. And at $0.45/kWh versus $0.11 at home, there is profit to be made on electrons, I imagine.
My point being, there probably never was a lot of margin on fuel. Which is why I’m surprised that more convenience stores with fuel aren’t putting in chargers because now you’ve got a captive audience for 20 minutes. They’re getting there, though, as I see AM/PM stores with EVGo chargers now in the PNW. And at $0.45/kWh versus $0.11 at home, there is profit to be made on electrons, I imagine.
I heard the same from a close friend whose family ran 3-4 gas stations.
She said they essentially broke even on gas (something like 1-3 cents of profit per gallon), but made all their money on items inside (she/her family was Asian, so they made a killing cuz they had an asian-styled buffet in their gas station in a small town in Indiana, the only one of its kind for miles)
She said they essentially broke even on gas (something like 1-3 cents of profit per gallon), but made all their money on items inside (she/her family was Asian, so they made a killing cuz they had an asian-styled buffet in their gas station in a small town in Indiana, the only one of its kind for miles)
small town in Indiana
I was on the north side of Indianapolis, the wealthier side of town that could afford a 30% markup on a gallon of full-serve gas.
Small Indiana town? Oh, yeah, I’d imagine they’d make a killing versus hot dogs that have been sitting on that roller thing all day. :-)
I was on the north side of Indianapolis, the wealthier side of town that could afford a 30% markup on a gallon of full-serve gas.
Small Indiana town? Oh, yeah, I’d imagine they’d make a killing versus hot dogs that have been sitting on that roller thing all day. :-)
> "Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?"
There are many chargers at gas ("petrol") stations in the UK. There are even a few stations that have been completely converted, with the pumps removed and replaced with chargers only.
For example, Shell Fulham in London: https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitr...
Installing high-power charging does depend on having a suitable grid connection available, of course. For some gas station locations, getting enough power to the site might be impractical or uneconomic.
There are many chargers at gas ("petrol") stations in the UK. There are even a few stations that have been completely converted, with the pumps removed and replaced with chargers only.
For example, Shell Fulham in London: https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitr...
Installing high-power charging does depend on having a suitable grid connection available, of course. For some gas station locations, getting enough power to the site might be impractical or uneconomic.
Bear in mind that particular example is in one of the most expensive places in the UK to live, and is pretty much surrounded by the most expensive neighbourhoods in the country.
Indeed, but it’s an example of what will gradually happen everywhere as more of the vehicle fleet is electrified.
Gas stations will have to adapt by installing chargers, as eventually there just won’t be enough combustion vehicles around to keep them in business.
Gas stations will have to adapt by installing chargers, as eventually there just won’t be enough combustion vehicles around to keep them in business.
> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
I'd guess that in the US one factor might be that a large fraction of gas stations are also convenience stores and most of them make more money from the convenience store side of the business than from the gas side of the business.
The convenience store has two kinds of customers. One is people who are there to get gas but also pick up something in the convenience store. The other is people who come specifically for the convenience store.
Space outside not used for cars that are at the gas pumps is usually used for parking for the people who are there for the convenience store.
If they add EV chargers that are separate from the pumps they will probably have to reduce the parking space for convenience store customers. So they are replacing spots currently used by people who are there for a usually short visit to the convenience store with spots for people who are there to charge EVs.
Even if 100% of EV charging customers also use the convenience store it still reduces convenience store volume because they occupy a spot longer than the people who are there just to use the convenience store. Plus there will be people who are there just to charge and will not use the convenience store.
If they add the EV chargers where the gas pumps are, then the EV charging customers are replacing gas buying customers and so again their is a reduction in turnover because EV charging is slower. Because EV charging is slower I'd guess there is a larger chance that an EV charging customer will decide to also use the convenience store than there is that an gas customer will, so that might compensate some for the lower turnover but I'd guess that it would still be a net reduction in convenience store business.
I'd guess that in the US one factor might be that a large fraction of gas stations are also convenience stores and most of them make more money from the convenience store side of the business than from the gas side of the business.
The convenience store has two kinds of customers. One is people who are there to get gas but also pick up something in the convenience store. The other is people who come specifically for the convenience store.
Space outside not used for cars that are at the gas pumps is usually used for parking for the people who are there for the convenience store.
If they add EV chargers that are separate from the pumps they will probably have to reduce the parking space for convenience store customers. So they are replacing spots currently used by people who are there for a usually short visit to the convenience store with spots for people who are there to charge EVs.
Even if 100% of EV charging customers also use the convenience store it still reduces convenience store volume because they occupy a spot longer than the people who are there just to use the convenience store. Plus there will be people who are there just to charge and will not use the convenience store.
If they add the EV chargers where the gas pumps are, then the EV charging customers are replacing gas buying customers and so again their is a reduction in turnover because EV charging is slower. Because EV charging is slower I'd guess there is a larger chance that an EV charging customer will decide to also use the convenience store than there is that an gas customer will, so that might compensate some for the lower turnover but I'd guess that it would still be a net reduction in convenience store business.
I have a garage, and I struggle with thinking an electric car would be a dream. It's an old detached garage and doesn't have the electrical infrastructure required to provide fast charging. It seems like it'd be another $10k worth of expenses (I assume something like that for the trenching and installation) on top of the car.
I'd argue most users don't need fast charging at home. 8 hours of level 1 charging gets you 30-50 miles of range, which is pretty much exactly the average daily commute. You can double that range by charging at work (which can be level 1 too).
For rare longer trips, public fast charging infrastructure is quite convenient.
For rare longer trips, public fast charging infrastructure is quite convenient.
You probably don't need fast charging for charging overnight. I charge my EV off a standard 120V/15A outlet and that's more than enough to keep the battery topped up.
A level 1 charger will add 3-4 miles of range every hour it's plugged in. Assuming you don't have some wildly long commute, that's easily enough to cover most people's daily driving in 8-10 hours of charging overnight.
A level 1 charger will add 3-4 miles of range every hour it's plugged in. Assuming you don't have some wildly long commute, that's easily enough to cover most people's daily driving in 8-10 hours of charging overnight.
Do you need fast charging at home? We just charge our electric car overnight from a normal UK 240V 13A socket in our garage.
That’s twice as much power as a US 120V 15A receptacle
.8*120*15 = 1440w vs 230*13 = 2990w
You can only use 80% of a load on a breaker in the US, AFAIK UK receptacles are fused which allows using 100% of the listed device ampacity instead of 80%. I could be wrong about that last part though.
.8*120*15 = 1440w vs 230*13 = 2990w
You can only use 80% of a load on a breaker in the US, AFAIK UK receptacles are fused which allows using 100% of the listed device ampacity instead of 80%. I could be wrong about that last part though.
In the UK there is usually a fuse in the plug, the fuse value varies according to the appliance up to a max of 13A.
240V/13A is significantly more power than the standard outlets in the US (120V/15A), but even here in the US I find a level 1 charger is more than sufficient to cover my daily driving by charging overnight.
I'm in the UK where every home already has 230v power at the consumer unit/breaker panel.
I don't have an EV charger, but I did have a 32A 230v power feed installed to my detached garage, suitable for a 7.4kW EVSE in the future. Parts and labour cost less than $650. It was a day's work for one man; he used armoured cable that doesn't need to be buried very deep, and could cross paved areas just cutting a 2" slit.
This was in a high cost-of-living area, a qualified and well reviewed electrician, and I didn't bother to shop around for multiple quotes.
I don't have an EV charger, but I did have a 32A 230v power feed installed to my detached garage, suitable for a 7.4kW EVSE in the future. Parts and labour cost less than $650. It was a day's work for one man; he used armoured cable that doesn't need to be buried very deep, and could cross paved areas just cutting a 2" slit.
This was in a high cost-of-living area, a qualified and well reviewed electrician, and I didn't bother to shop around for multiple quotes.
In the US you can write off a chunk of that on your taxes, and your local electrical company may have incentives as well.
You recoup the home charging infra expense over the life of the vehicle through lower fuel costs (electricity vs petrol), and that cost is high. I just had a Tesla high power wall charger installed in a condo building for someone, and for a 100A conduit run and conductors (~70 ft including punching through brick exterior wall and mounting conduit to a finished underground parking facility ceiling) to a sub panel from the meter pan, charger install in front of the parking spot, and 20A branch circuit for other loads off the sub panel, total cost was $6k (US Midwest). Utility and local gov incentives covered half of that, bringing the final bill to ~$3k.
As others said, level 1 charging is more than enough for a lot of people. There are also compromises in between level 1 and level 2. The car will likely take pretty much anything you throw at it. So for example if you have 2 circuits to the garage you can gang them to get 240V/15A for double the speed of level 1. Of it might be a 20A capable connection -- 120V/20A (16A continuous) is noticeably faster than 120V/15A (12A continuous).
If you look up the specs you can do your own trenching and place a conduit with a draw string ready to go. If you know the electrician is cool with it you can often pull cables and have everything ready to go (I buy my own breakers and things) and have the electrician install them. I don’t have an electric car yet but I can’t imagine having over $300 or so in labour once I do, using this strategy.
UK motorway service stations seem to have chargers, and to be expanding them in response to demand. Last time I was in one I saw the two occupied chargers next to a whole row of a dozen under-construction chargers. I'm not sure what the cost of those is, though.
> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board
Depends on the energy company.
Some like BP, Chevron, and Idemitsu Kosan began investing fairly heavily in renewables and battery technology (eg. ownership in solar development, owning and licensing battery and charging IP, etc) for diversification reasons.
Others did not, and don't want to end up paying competitors.
Furthermore, gas stations are themselves just franchises so the franchisee might have to eat the cost of installation.
Chevron owns Chargepoint so they were able to scale charging infra to their stations, but other competitors might not want to subsidize Chevron corporate and leave it to the franchise.
Depends on the energy company.
Some like BP, Chevron, and Idemitsu Kosan began investing fairly heavily in renewables and battery technology (eg. ownership in solar development, owning and licensing battery and charging IP, etc) for diversification reasons.
Others did not, and don't want to end up paying competitors.
Furthermore, gas stations are themselves just franchises so the franchisee might have to eat the cost of installation.
Chevron owns Chargepoint so they were able to scale charging infra to their stations, but other competitors might not want to subsidize Chevron corporate and leave it to the franchise.
L3 charging requires a ton of very specific infrastructure.
Around where I live tesla's got some co-generation going on near by where they've got natural gas -> fuel cell -> supercharger setups (bloom energy runs one and I forget the other).
Absent that you need the power company to pipe in some serious power feeds and those aren't always convenient to trench into where you've already got a gas station.
Around where I live tesla's got some co-generation going on near by where they've got natural gas -> fuel cell -> supercharger setups (bloom energy runs one and I forget the other).
Absent that you need the power company to pipe in some serious power feeds and those aren't always convenient to trench into where you've already got a gas station.
> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?
Oil companies’ involvement with gas stations is only to the extent of selling their brand to the gas station operator. I don’t think I have ever heard of an oil company itself operating a gas station, I doubt they even own a single one.
Oil companies’ involvement with gas stations is only to the extent of selling their brand to the gas station operator. I don’t think I have ever heard of an oil company itself operating a gas station, I doubt they even own a single one.
they also got into fear and panic mode thinking that their investments in oil will be at risk.
Many of them have existing oil infrastructure that they want to put value on. If they are to become obsolete, their net worth and buying power will be threatened. And so they go into fear/panic. The koch brothers.
Many of them have existing oil infrastructure that they want to put value on. If they are to become obsolete, their net worth and buying power will be threatened. And so they go into fear/panic. The koch brothers.
No but they can get into electricity generation and sell it wholesale (by the kilowatt or megawatt hour) to gas stations like they do with liquid gasoline.
They have the massive amounts of money to make those investments and sell them to gas stations the same way they do now.
They have the massive amounts of money to make those investments and sell them to gas stations the same way they do now.
Oil companies own and operate many, many gas stations, and are actively adding L3 chargers to them.
Which makes America perfect for EVs. Over half of Americans live in single family homes.
Well, almost perfect. Being on 110V in residences is a downside.
Well, almost perfect. Being on 110V in residences is a downside.
Note that most US homes actually have 240 V split phase service. Power is typically distributed to a neighborhood at 13.3 kV (but there is a lot of variation), and stepped down by a 240 V center tapped transformer outside your house.
The center tap of that transformer is connected to ground and neutral. Normal residential outlets are connected between that neutral and one of the two hot outputs, giving 120 V.
Connecting across the two hots instead of across one hot and neutral gives 240 V. Many houses have one or two 240 V outlets. Typically there is one where the builders expected you to put your washer and dryer, to support an electric dryer. Often there is also one in the garage.
It's easy for an electrician to add more 240 V circuits4 and, assuming you don't need a new electrical panel, fairly reasonably priced. Googling is claiming typically $250-800.
The center tap of that transformer is connected to ground and neutral. Normal residential outlets are connected between that neutral and one of the two hot outputs, giving 120 V.
Connecting across the two hots instead of across one hot and neutral gives 240 V. Many houses have one or two 240 V outlets. Typically there is one where the builders expected you to put your washer and dryer, to support an electric dryer. Often there is also one in the garage.
It's easy for an electrician to add more 240 V circuits4 and, assuming you don't need a new electrical panel, fairly reasonably priced. Googling is claiming typically $250-800.
American gas (petrol) prices being pretty low makes it a questionable calculation for most people.
Including the car’s depreciation, an EV does not always pencil out versus a gas hybrid unless you do a lot of driving.
Plus a lot of states charge a much higher annual tax for EVs compared to gas hybrids.
Including the car’s depreciation, an EV does not always pencil out versus a gas hybrid unless you do a lot of driving.
Plus a lot of states charge a much higher annual tax for EVs compared to gas hybrids.
It's still way way way cheaper to "fill" an EV tank in the US because the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions).
It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas.
I recently spoke to a cabbie in Madrid that was driving a Tesla, and he said the economics were a no-brainer. He charges at home overnight and once mid-day and his monthly electricity bill was 130 euros. Before that, he was spending over 1,000 euros a month on gas.
That more than makes up for the additional initial cost of having an EV.
It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas.
I recently spoke to a cabbie in Madrid that was driving a Tesla, and he said the economics were a no-brainer. He charges at home overnight and once mid-day and his monthly electricity bill was 130 euros. Before that, he was spending over 1,000 euros a month on gas.
That more than makes up for the additional initial cost of having an EV.
> the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions)
Those of us lucky enough to have PG&E in California have a different calculation though. As of my latest bill they charge 88c/kWh and I heard they just approved yet another rate increase. We'll probably be paying $1/kWh pretty soon.
It's a bit cheaper after midnight, but still more expensive than nearly everywhere.
Those of us lucky enough to have PG&E in California have a different calculation though. As of my latest bill they charge 88c/kWh and I heard they just approved yet another rate increase. We'll probably be paying $1/kWh pretty soon.
It's a bit cheaper after midnight, but still more expensive than nearly everywhere.
>It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas.
If you drive 5k to 10k miles per year though, a hybrid Camry or Prius or equivalent is still going to be cheaper per mile over 20 years compared to an EV due to the huge depreciation in the EV due to battery replacement cost.
Even a RAV4 Prime is probably cheaper.
If you drive 5k to 10k miles per year though, a hybrid Camry or Prius or equivalent is still going to be cheaper per mile over 20 years compared to an EV due to the huge depreciation in the EV due to battery replacement cost.
Even a RAV4 Prime is probably cheaper.
L1 charging is not horrible; if the battery is flat, I get a complete charge (volt, 50 mi) in 10 hours. If I had L1 destination chargers 80% of the time, I'd be okay. I believe we could use combo L1/L2 charging to reduce the grid load and service more cars if one could spread the energy among the sockets depending on usage. small number of cars, L2 speeds, large number of cars, L1 speeds.
Germany seems to be forcing this through law in a few years.
https://www.heise.de/en/news/Elektroautos-Bundesregierung-be...
Isn't that expensive?
Where I am in the UK, the unit rate at home is ~10p, while it's 40-50p at a public charger. I can get the home rate even cheaper (5p/kWh) with good timing.
Where I am in the UK, the unit rate at home is ~10p, while it's 40-50p at a public charger. I can get the home rate even cheaper (5p/kWh) with good timing.
> He checks on his phone when one is available, drives there and plugs in.
One more things on the busy todo list - not a biggie for a retiree for sure.
One more things on the busy todo list - not a biggie for a retiree for sure.
If majority of them are not rapid chargers, and once they all become rapid chargers, won't we have too many chargers then? the time it takes to charge a vehicle will be 2 hours vs 8 hours of slow charging occupying the same spot.
I realize that my experience in an upscale, somewhat suburban part of west London is not representative of the UK in general. But where I live, we've definitely "passed the tipping point" of EV adoption.
There are low speed chargers available in the streetlight poles next to street parking (low cost). There are 22kw slow/medium chargers in reserved spots throughout the neighborhood (medium cost, lower to residents). There are 250kw chargers at gas stations (high cost). The local supermarket has 10+ 250kw charging spots (high cost) and at least half are always available.
It's finally hit the point where there are always multiple charging options easily available nearby and the number of EVs parked in the neighborhood is rapidly multiplying. I see more EVs on my local streets daily.
It's a different world outside of London. Less densely populated areas of the UK can still be a bit of a nightmare for charging, especially during big travel periods. Looking at you, Cornwall.
There are low speed chargers available in the streetlight poles next to street parking (low cost). There are 22kw slow/medium chargers in reserved spots throughout the neighborhood (medium cost, lower to residents). There are 250kw chargers at gas stations (high cost). The local supermarket has 10+ 250kw charging spots (high cost) and at least half are always available.
It's finally hit the point where there are always multiple charging options easily available nearby and the number of EVs parked in the neighborhood is rapidly multiplying. I see more EVs on my local streets daily.
It's a different world outside of London. Less densely populated areas of the UK can still be a bit of a nightmare for charging, especially during big travel periods. Looking at you, Cornwall.
In the posher lanes around here (in the wealthy home counties) every single house now appears to have a charger, and the main difference between them is whether there are one or two electric cars parked outside.
This didn't happen in a vacuum though. The government effectively forced business-registered cars to become electric, with draconian tax policies and road charges; and is now forcing (with various degrees of success) petrol stations to have chargers.
Yes, the policy is working. None of this - not the EV transition, not the coal transition, not the (very slow) heatpump transition - would be happening without policy.
We had a Polestar 2 as our only car for about 8 weeks at the start of the year, we knew we’d only have it for a short time so didn’t install a charger to the house.
It was a total nightmare, we had to think days ahead to any big trip to make sure we had enough charge to get us through and if we needed to charge en route it was expensive, slow and difficult to find a working charger.
We are back with an ICE vehicle now and it’s so much easier.
It’s great that we are moving toward an EV future but right now you need a dedicated charger and also be prepared to massively pay over the odds on a per mile basis if you have to charge en route somewhere.
Also every charger needs to be tap and pay and every charger should be usable by any EV, screw those Podpoints in train stations that don’t appear in the app and clearly need you to be in some secret club to access.
EDIT: I'm based in the UK
It was a total nightmare, we had to think days ahead to any big trip to make sure we had enough charge to get us through and if we needed to charge en route it was expensive, slow and difficult to find a working charger.
We are back with an ICE vehicle now and it’s so much easier.
It’s great that we are moving toward an EV future but right now you need a dedicated charger and also be prepared to massively pay over the odds on a per mile basis if you have to charge en route somewhere.
Also every charger needs to be tap and pay and every charger should be usable by any EV, screw those Podpoints in train stations that don’t appear in the app and clearly need you to be in some secret club to access.
EDIT: I'm based in the UK
For sure you need at least an outdoor socket, so you can charge over night.
Google tells me the Polestar 2 has 330 miles of range, so you could do the 5h30m drive from Swansea to Norwich on a single charge - if you leave home with a full charge.
But if you can't leave home with a full charge? If you've got a complicated schedule, like using a charger at work but only working 1 day a week? I can see how that would be a lot more hassle. And public fast chargers cost 4-5x as much as charging at home too.
Google tells me the Polestar 2 has 330 miles of range, so you could do the 5h30m drive from Swansea to Norwich on a single charge - if you leave home with a full charge.
But if you can't leave home with a full charge? If you've got a complicated schedule, like using a charger at work but only working 1 day a week? I can see how that would be a lot more hassle. And public fast chargers cost 4-5x as much as charging at home too.
The UK is about 300 miles across and about 600 miles long, so there's not that much scope for long trips. Mind you, I've done the 400 miles of Edinburgh to south coast quite a few times myself.
(Currently thinking of getting a Peugeot E208, if anyone has any experience with those?)
(Currently thinking of getting a Peugeot E208, if anyone has any experience with those?)
It's pretty hard to drive in a straight line in the UK though, so even though it's 600 miles from John O groats to Lands end, it's actually 840 miles of a drive. Longer if sections of the M6 are closed.
But, I do agree with you. Driving 400 miles here from Edinburgh to Southend is not a straight 400 mile motorway drive at 75mph like it would be in the US, it's practically guaranteed to hit standstill traffic at one point or another. I'm sure you technically _could_ do that journey in one sitting in a car, but the vast, vast majority of people will be pulling over to break, even if it's just to the bathroom.
I drove from Edi to Cornwall , which is about 550 miles. We stopped twice on the journey, once for a coffee/toilet break (15 minutes by the time the coffee was made and we had queued for the toilet), and once for food (45m). Adding 1 hour onto a 9 hour drive was not a deal breaker, and if it was then we wouldn't have made it on time because we were also delayed by numerous breakdowns, accidents, lane closures, horses on the M6. We lost more time to all of that than we did to rest stops.
But, I do agree with you. Driving 400 miles here from Edinburgh to Southend is not a straight 400 mile motorway drive at 75mph like it would be in the US, it's practically guaranteed to hit standstill traffic at one point or another. I'm sure you technically _could_ do that journey in one sitting in a car, but the vast, vast majority of people will be pulling over to break, even if it's just to the bathroom.
I drove from Edi to Cornwall , which is about 550 miles. We stopped twice on the journey, once for a coffee/toilet break (15 minutes by the time the coffee was made and we had queued for the toilet), and once for food (45m). Adding 1 hour onto a 9 hour drive was not a deal breaker, and if it was then we wouldn't have made it on time because we were also delayed by numerous breakdowns, accidents, lane closures, horses on the M6. We lost more time to all of that than we did to rest stops.
I've had e208 from on.to. It's a lovely nimble city car.
The downside is that it charges at 60-80kW, and it's not especially efficient car either. Purely from BEV perspective it's a low-end performance for a mid-range price.
I've heard that e3008 is better, but the first gen EV powertrains from Stellantis just weren't good.
ID.3 is a bit better with charging speed, and Hyundai/Kia's e-GMP platform runs circles around them with 2-3x faster charging for not much more money.
The downside is that it charges at 60-80kW, and it's not especially efficient car either. Purely from BEV perspective it's a low-end performance for a mid-range price.
I've heard that e3008 is better, but the first gen EV powertrains from Stellantis just weren't good.
ID.3 is a bit better with charging speed, and Hyundai/Kia's e-GMP platform runs circles around them with 2-3x faster charging for not much more money.
Not especially efficient? Hmm, I'd noticed that range per kWh varies a lot but not checked in detail. That's disappointing.
The Ioniq series look amazing and are very popular, but are significantly larger cars (disadvantage for me, maybe advantage for others).
Edit: on.to? oh.no more like:
> "On 11 September 2023 Jonathan Lees and Gavin Maher of Teneo Financial Advisory Limited were appointed as Joint Administrators of Onto Holdings Limited. On the same date, Gavin Maher and Ian Wormleighton were also appointed as Joint Administrators over Onto Tech 1 Limited, Onto Tech 2 Limited, Onto Tech 3 Limited and Onto Tech 4 Limited, each a subsidiary of Onto Holdings Limited (together "the Companies"). "
:(
The Ioniq series look amazing and are very popular, but are significantly larger cars (disadvantage for me, maybe advantage for others).
Edit: on.to? oh.no more like:
> "On 11 September 2023 Jonathan Lees and Gavin Maher of Teneo Financial Advisory Limited were appointed as Joint Administrators of Onto Holdings Limited. On the same date, Gavin Maher and Ian Wormleighton were also appointed as Joint Administrators over Onto Tech 1 Limited, Onto Tech 2 Limited, Onto Tech 3 Limited and Onto Tech 4 Limited, each a subsidiary of Onto Holdings Limited (together "the Companies"). "
:(
It does vary a lot. In city it's easily 4mi/kWh or more. But I remember being pissed at Stellantis when in cold rain on highway the efficiency dropped to 1.7mi/kWh, and the range estimate was still calculated based on the marketing number, going down by 2 miles for every 1 mile driven (it was a version without a heat pump).
Ioniq's worst case is better than this (~2.1 in bad weather, 3.1-3.3 at highway speeds in good conditions), and it displays accurate range based on real usage. Ioniq is indeed a bit too fat for UK's parking spaces.
on.to was great. I think they took advantage of tax breaks when leasing for a business, and during lockdowns they couldn't buy new cars fast enough.
Ioniq's worst case is better than this (~2.1 in bad weather, 3.1-3.3 at highway speeds in good conditions), and it displays accurate range based on real usage. Ioniq is indeed a bit too fat for UK's parking spaces.
on.to was great. I think they took advantage of tax breaks when leasing for a business, and during lockdowns they couldn't buy new cars fast enough.
BTW, if you want something for road trips, check out Bjorn Nyland's data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzv...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzv...
We found that 330 miles to be very unlikely as well. More like 270 and then you need to make sure you’ve got 40 miles spare to make sure you can make it to a working charge without going flat.
So in reality the comfortable working assumption should be 230 in my experience. We had the car in winter, perhaps didn’t help.
So in reality the comfortable working assumption should be 230 in my experience. We had the car in winter, perhaps didn’t help.
> We had the car in winter, perhaps didn’t help.
Yeah, especially if it wasn't the higher end model with a heat pump. Winter is definitely the biggest challenge for EV range at the moment (if you live in a place where heating is necessary for any significant part of the year a heat pump is pretty much a requirement).
Yeah, especially if it wasn't the higher end model with a heat pump. Winter is definitely the biggest challenge for EV range at the moment (if you live in a place where heating is necessary for any significant part of the year a heat pump is pretty much a requirement).
we had to think days ahead to any big trip
Were you taking a lot of big trips without thinking about them before the Polestar?
Were you taking a lot of big trips without thinking about them before the Polestar?
It's clear that an EV has a harder time with long distance travel than a gas vehicle.
Gas: get in car, drive until light turns on, pull into next gas station and get gas, keep driving.
EV(tesla): get in car, enter destination, car will route you to superchargers as needed
EV(!tesla): get in car, consult web sites like a better route planner, verify car's charge, verify that you have the app for each of the fast charging destination payment methods, drive to the first location and it's broken in some tedious way and now you have to hope you've got range to get to your b site.
Gas: get in car, drive until light turns on, pull into next gas station and get gas, keep driving.
EV(tesla): get in car, enter destination, car will route you to superchargers as needed
EV(!tesla): get in car, consult web sites like a better route planner, verify car's charge, verify that you have the app for each of the fast charging destination payment methods, drive to the first location and it's broken in some tedious way and now you have to hope you've got range to get to your b site.
Specifically we had to plan our charging for a few days ahead because, without a home charger, we couldn’t get more than a 25% charge overnight. So unless we wanted to start our journey with an expensive fast charge we would need to plan our car usage and charge strategy so that when we left for the big trip we’d have at least 80%.
With an ICE we just fill up the night before or morning of and we’re good to go with 500 miles in the tank.
With an ICE we just fill up the night before or morning of and we’re good to go with 500 miles in the tank.
I don't doubt your troubles, and it does sound like your usecase is indeed a decent fit for an ICE. Do you mind if I ask what kind of activities you do that involve several long (150+ mi), daily roadtrips in a 2 month period? I think that's fairly well outside the normal usecase for cars.
Sure:
- visiting family, 2 lots, both over 3 hours each away
- mountain biking, 2 to 5 hour each way
- friends wedding, 3 hours
- airport run, 4 hour round trip … twice
- overnight work trip 5 hours each way
That’s a pretty common 2/3 month period for us. Oh and when we had the PS2 there was a daily commute to one of two office between 30 and 60 minutes each way.
- visiting family, 2 lots, both over 3 hours each away
- mountain biking, 2 to 5 hour each way
- friends wedding, 3 hours
- airport run, 4 hour round trip … twice
- overnight work trip 5 hours each way
That’s a pretty common 2/3 month period for us. Oh and when we had the PS2 there was a daily commute to one of two office between 30 and 60 minutes each way.
Wow, with that amount of driving you're going to be stuck with ICE cars for a while. I suspect you're a significant outlier though in terms of long trips per month.
With a 22kW (default European 3-phase) charger, it would be easy to have a full battery every morning. A large EV charges from empty to full in 5-8 hours.
In some places 3-phase power is very common (e.g. my small apartment in Copenhagen has a 3-phase supply), though in the UK it's less common. The upgrade might be £1000, or considerably more.
With 7kW (1-phase) it will be OK for a lot of trips — charging in 11-12 hours. This is more power than a normal domestic socket provides. In some countries there's a higher-power socket in the garage already, otherwise it's something the electrician needs to install.
A normal domestic socket is around 3kW.
In some places 3-phase power is very common (e.g. my small apartment in Copenhagen has a 3-phase supply), though in the UK it's less common. The upgrade might be £1000, or considerably more.
With 7kW (1-phase) it will be OK for a lot of trips — charging in 11-12 hours. This is more power than a normal domestic socket provides. In some countries there's a higher-power socket in the garage already, otherwise it's something the electrician needs to install.
A normal domestic socket is around 3kW.
Maybe, but I've got quite a few friends in that do similar amounts of driving so I might not be as far out there as you think. But I agree we are at the higher end.
> without a home charger, we couldn’t get more than a 25% charge overnight.
Seems like a nasty issue with that polestar or with whatever you were using to charge overnight. With an actual charger you'd get to 100% overnight.
With tesla you'd also have car adding detours for you towards fast chargers when needed, so much less to worry.
Seems like a nasty issue with that polestar or with whatever you were using to charge overnight. With an actual charger you'd get to 100% overnight.
With tesla you'd also have car adding detours for you towards fast chargers when needed, so much less to worry.
Yeh we were charging from a normal domestic socket plug in charger.
If we’d spent the £1,500 on the dedicated charger I’m sure my view would be different.
Either way I can get 500 miles out of an ICE and refill it in 2 minutes. EVs are great but for longer drives that convenience is hard to beat.
If we’d spent the £1,500 on the dedicated charger I’m sure my view would be different.
Either way I can get 500 miles out of an ICE and refill it in 2 minutes. EVs are great but for longer drives that convenience is hard to beat.
> Either way I can get 500 miles out of an ICE and refill it in 2 minutes. EVs are great but for longer drives that convenience is hard to beat.
Sure, but typically refill would be 30-40 min with a Tesla in a supercharger for long drives, which I usually need after driving 500-600km.
On the other hand, they're very fun to drive, the acceleration is insane. ICE cars that come close are twice the price and with much higher maintenance costs.
I'm not sure why you went with a polestar though.
Sure, but typically refill would be 30-40 min with a Tesla in a supercharger for long drives, which I usually need after driving 500-600km.
On the other hand, they're very fun to drive, the acceleration is insane. ICE cars that come close are twice the price and with much higher maintenance costs.
I'm not sure why you went with a polestar though.
> EVs are great but for longer drives that convenience is hard to beat.
No, for longer drives multiple times per week with no return home in between them, an ICE is hard to beat. If you're driving 250 miles a day and returning home then it's a no brainer - you don't even need to stop for petrol.
No, for longer drives multiple times per week with no return home in between them, an ICE is hard to beat. If you're driving 250 miles a day and returning home then it's a no brainer - you don't even need to stop for petrol.
> With an actual charger
Well, yeah, that's the issue. Without an "actual charger" you only get ~25% range overnight with a standard wall outlet. It's not a problem for most driving usecases, but for people who do a lot of long trips, it still an issue.
Well, yeah, that's the issue. Without an "actual charger" you only get ~25% range overnight with a standard wall outlet. It's not a problem for most driving usecases, but for people who do a lot of long trips, it still an issue.
Why don't you string an electric cable from a regular socket out of the window? It's slow but it can easily charge a car overnight.
In the US, on a 120v / 12a circuit, it'll add 3 miles of range per hour.
Which is plenty for most folks (I originally planned on installing a Level 2 charger in my garage, but found it was completely unnecessary and just charge off a standard outlet)
Sure -- I use such a setup sometimes when visiting family.
It's not ideal, however; it's 66 hours continuously to add 200 miles of range to an older S; for more efficient cars (that get 4 or 5 miles of range an hour) it's still going to be 40 hours.
Such a setup is totally untenable if you're hanging an electric cord out your window and over a sidewalk or through trees or whatever, if you can even get a parking space within extension cord range of your car...
Also, broadly -- running a random outlet at 12a continuously for 60 hours may break things in unpleasant ways.
It's not ideal, however; it's 66 hours continuously to add 200 miles of range to an older S; for more efficient cars (that get 4 or 5 miles of range an hour) it's still going to be 40 hours.
Such a setup is totally untenable if you're hanging an electric cord out your window and over a sidewalk or through trees or whatever, if you can even get a parking space within extension cord range of your car...
Also, broadly -- running a random outlet at 12a continuously for 60 hours may break things in unpleasant ways.
Wouldn't taking a lunch break at a faster charger elsewhere achieve the same thing?
What led you to consider an EV for a temporary 2-month car intended for lots of long-distance winter trips?
Wife worked for Polestar at the time and finally had the chance to get on the company lease scheme. We knew she was leaving by this point but decided a couple of months with an EV was worth a try to see if it fit our lifestyle. Glad we did it, I'll try again in 10 years.
“There were 930,000 UK chargers at the end of June, according to ChargeUK, a lobby group, but the majority of these have been installed in homes and business premises, with only about 65,000 public chargers available.”
The article does not break down the 65K public chargers or the added chargers by charging speed.
The article does not break down the 65K public chargers or the added chargers by charging speed.
Nor does it mention how many of those chargers actually work.
yeah, I have seen this in Germany as well. I guess the companies get incentives for installing these chargers, and then just let them sit there until they rot
In our city (~100k) alone I have spotted over 10 chargers that have been defective for at least half a year, some even longer than 1 year. And that's only those that I regularly drive to.
As long as there are no requirements to actually service them and have them in a working condition, the raw numbers of installed chargers are meaningless
In our city (~100k) alone I have spotted over 10 chargers that have been defective for at least half a year, some even longer than 1 year. And that's only those that I regularly drive to.
As long as there are no requirements to actually service them and have them in a working condition, the raw numbers of installed chargers are meaningless
> ... there's no requirement ...
Is a requirement really necessary? I'm not aware that any requirement exists to keep your petrol station running (well, maybe there is one). And I'm sure it's not necessary to have one, because if your station does not work you go out of business very fast.
So why are these companies still in business if it's profitable to have non-working charging stations?
Is a requirement really necessary? I'm not aware that any requirement exists to keep your petrol station running (well, maybe there is one). And I'm sure it's not necessary to have one, because if your station does not work you go out of business very fast.
So why are these companies still in business if it's profitable to have non-working charging stations?
At least sometimes, yes. WV’s charger network (“electrify America”) is notorious for perennially broken chargers, and when the government announced the next round of subsidies was contingent on the chargers actually working then suddenly WV got serious about maintenance.
> So why are these companies still in business if it's profitable to have non-working charging stations?
Pretty sure the government pays them the cost of installing the charger + profit. So they're just in the business of installing chargers.
While I don't think anybody pays you to just build gas stations so you'll need to operate it to recover your initial investment.
Pretty sure the government pays them the cost of installing the charger + profit. So they're just in the business of installing chargers.
While I don't think anybody pays you to just build gas stations so you'll need to operate it to recover your initial investment.
I wonder if there's some kind of ridiculous accountability split like the famous McDonalds non-working ice cream machines.
The UK seems like it should be a slam dunk for EV adoption; moderate climate, high gas prices, short distances, and an affluent populace. Yet Germany (and Europe at large) is handily beating them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country
Why is this?
Why is this?
I'm starting to see quite a few on the roads, with the distinctive green flash on the numberplate. The arrival of "MG" (Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation, but doing business as a traditional British brand) has helped.
But the built environment is against us; too many people rely on on-street parking. And the recent spike in electricity prices last winter has badly damaged the cost competitiveness argument.
But the built environment is against us; too many people rely on on-street parking. And the recent spike in electricity prices last winter has badly damaged the cost competitiveness argument.
Personally its because there was a lot of question mark hanging over second hand EVs for ages. If i buy this car for £10k will it need a new 8k battery in 18 months?
I don't know if this is still accurate but it was top of my mind 5 years ago when i last changed one of our cars. Ill consider EVs again next year when one is due for replacement at which point ill need to total up the additional home infrastructure in the price.
I don't know if this is still accurate but it was top of my mind 5 years ago when i last changed one of our cars. Ill consider EVs again next year when one is due for replacement at which point ill need to total up the additional home infrastructure in the price.
There's over a decade of real-world data available from Tesla and Leaf, and the batteries are very long-lived: they degrade about 1%-2% per year with a good battery management system, and around 3% per year with Leaf's weaksauce one.
Additionally, batteries are getting cheaper and more energy dense, so when it's time to replace them, you'll probably get an upgrade for cheaper. Leaf started with 24kWh batteries, and now you get 40kWh for the same price, and a 64kWh upgrade option.
People often extrapolate from their experience with cell phone batteries, but these "lithium" and those "lithium" batteries are very different. There are different chemistries, different conditioning with active cooling/heating, different rates of discharge, and a big difference in redundancy when you have 1 cell vs 7000 of them.
Additionally, batteries are getting cheaper and more energy dense, so when it's time to replace them, you'll probably get an upgrade for cheaper. Leaf started with 24kWh batteries, and now you get 40kWh for the same price, and a 64kWh upgrade option.
People often extrapolate from their experience with cell phone batteries, but these "lithium" and those "lithium" batteries are very different. There are different chemistries, different conditioning with active cooling/heating, different rates of discharge, and a big difference in redundancy when you have 1 cell vs 7000 of them.
Many of them come with generous battery warranties. Tesla has 8 years: https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty
I think the biggest problem is that although people do mostly short journeys, a lot of people do some long journeys too.
I mostly drive within a few miles, or at most 15 of so miles of where I live. However, I occasionally go say 200 miles without a convenient chance to recharge (have done so twice in the last month). I know people who drive much further - e.g. one regularly drives from the Midlands to the North of Scotland.
There are also people who do not have a car at all (I never did when I lived in London, nor in Manchester till I had a child) or who drive very little. If you do low mileage the case (financial and environmental) for using an EV is a lot weaker.
A lot of houses have no where to put a charger - lots of on-street parking.
I do not have the data for a proper answer, but I think it has to do with patterns of usage and housing.
I mostly drive within a few miles, or at most 15 of so miles of where I live. However, I occasionally go say 200 miles without a convenient chance to recharge (have done so twice in the last month). I know people who drive much further - e.g. one regularly drives from the Midlands to the North of Scotland.
There are also people who do not have a car at all (I never did when I lived in London, nor in Manchester till I had a child) or who drive very little. If you do low mileage the case (financial and environmental) for using an EV is a lot weaker.
A lot of houses have no where to put a charger - lots of on-street parking.
I do not have the data for a proper answer, but I think it has to do with patterns of usage and housing.
Personally (in the UK) I don't have an EV because I only drive about 2000 miles a year. Even with our high petrol prices, it's still not worth paying the EV premium versus a "cheap run-around" ICE car.
While I do drive below the UK norm, the the mode miles per car is only get about 3500 miles per year and the median about 7000. Last time I looked into it (which admittedly was during COVID crazy car price era), when comparing cars lb for lb, it only really made sense to get an EV if you plan to drive it more than 10k miles per year. High electric prices don't help.
That being said, I'd imagine for most people the decision as to which sort of car to buy is more about emotion and presentation than it is about cold hard logic.
While I do drive below the UK norm, the the mode miles per car is only get about 3500 miles per year and the median about 7000. Last time I looked into it (which admittedly was during COVID crazy car price era), when comparing cars lb for lb, it only really made sense to get an EV if you plan to drive it more than 10k miles per year. High electric prices don't help.
That being said, I'd imagine for most people the decision as to which sort of car to buy is more about emotion and presentation than it is about cold hard logic.
> High electric prices don't help.
Octopus gives me 7.5p per kWh at night, working out about 3p/mile for me vs about 12p/mile for my old diesel.
Not sure how you got 10k miles, but every mile is cheaper if you just look at fuel and can charge at home.
Octopus gives me 7.5p per kWh at night, working out about 3p/mile for me vs about 12p/mile for my old diesel.
Not sure how you got 10k miles, but every mile is cheaper if you just look at fuel and can charge at home.
I did say the electricity prices don't help, not that they were the sole determining factor. If electricity was 3p/kWh, the crossover point would be a lot sooner.
The main difference is the depreciation of the car itself and, surprisingly, the insurance which for me was quite a bit higher on every EV I looked at. For an EV that's equivalent in spec to an older efficient and ULEZ-compliant petrol car, the EV is more expensive and has higher depreciation costs.
Since I only drive a few thousand miles, I only spend a few hundred pounds per year in petrol, but even at 10k miles I'd only be spending roughly 1200 GBP with my decently efficient engine, compared to 400 GBP with an EV, which isn't a huge saving. That also assumes I always charge at home, which would not be the case as my driving pattern is usually 1 or 2 miles a week locally with the occasional 300+ mile trip.
I assume you're probably using Octopus Go for that price, so you'd have to account for the fact that it makes your electricity more expensive through the rest of the day too for it to be a fair comparison. That being said, I personally use Octopus Agile, which makes it really hard to figure out precisely how much it'd end up costing me.
The main difference is the depreciation of the car itself and, surprisingly, the insurance which for me was quite a bit higher on every EV I looked at. For an EV that's equivalent in spec to an older efficient and ULEZ-compliant petrol car, the EV is more expensive and has higher depreciation costs.
Since I only drive a few thousand miles, I only spend a few hundred pounds per year in petrol, but even at 10k miles I'd only be spending roughly 1200 GBP with my decently efficient engine, compared to 400 GBP with an EV, which isn't a huge saving. That also assumes I always charge at home, which would not be the case as my driving pattern is usually 1 or 2 miles a week locally with the occasional 300+ mile trip.
I assume you're probably using Octopus Go for that price, so you'd have to account for the fact that it makes your electricity more expensive through the rest of the day too for it to be a fair comparison. That being said, I personally use Octopus Agile, which makes it really hard to figure out precisely how much it'd end up costing me.
What do you mean? The UK and Germany have very similar EV adoption (~24% of car sales in 2023).
5.0% vs 5.4% of cars on the road?
That's probably the slightly higher incomes in Germany.
That's probably the slightly higher incomes in Germany.
Our luddite conspiracy theory faction seems more organised than the rest of Europe. Pushing measures to encourage green adoption runs the risk of attracting the ire of an exceptionally loud and persistent minority who are convinced by things like the bizarre conspiracy theory[1] that policies to curb pollution are part of a great plot to control how often you're allowed to go to the shops.
[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66990302
[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66990302
Population density explains a lot of difference between UK and Europe.
Seem fairly similar, although the UK is denser than all of Europe except Belgium, Netherlands and the microstates. Is that good or bad for EV adoption? Is it skewed by Londoners often not having cars at all?
That does rather depend where you live in the UK though and also where you regularly travel to...
Charging has gotten pretty decent in the last couple of years.
I used to be annoyed that signs for highway services don't show which ones have chargers, but they've fixed that by installing chargers at every one of them (at least along my routes).
It's even better in western Europe, where Ionity and Fastned have a pretty dense coverage of 300kW chargers.
I've been road tripping around the UK and Europe for the last three summers, and it's been easy peasy.
Hyundai has a universal charging card that works with the majority of minor crappy charging networks, which solves the pain of having to install seventeen different charging apps.
I used to be annoyed that signs for highway services don't show which ones have chargers, but they've fixed that by installing chargers at every one of them (at least along my routes).
It's even better in western Europe, where Ionity and Fastned have a pretty dense coverage of 300kW chargers.
I've been road tripping around the UK and Europe for the last three summers, and it's been easy peasy.
Hyundai has a universal charging card that works with the majority of minor crappy charging networks, which solves the pain of having to install seventeen different charging apps.
The whole paying for charging thing needs to die a painful and fiery death. I have a universal (money) charging card in my wallet - it was issued by my bank. There should be nothing else required to pay for charging a car up.
Same with parking. Most car parks around here accept only coins (and I stopped carrying coins about 5 years ago) or pay-by-phone, which always charges more than the advertised parking price and is usually conveniently located in a mobile phone dead spot. Parking meters used to accept contactless card payments - what gives?
Same with parking. Most car parks around here accept only coins (and I stopped carrying coins about 5 years ago) or pay-by-phone, which always charges more than the advertised parking price and is usually conveniently located in a mobile phone dead spot. Parking meters used to accept contactless card payments - what gives?
>It's even better in western Europe
Where? Because here in Austria public EV charging infrastructure is next to non existent.
Ironically it's best in Vienna where car ownership is lowest due to excellent public transportation but next to no existing in the other smaller cities where car ownership is highest.
It's bonkers.
Where? Because here in Austria public EV charging infrastructure is next to non existent.
Ironically it's best in Vienna where car ownership is lowest due to excellent public transportation but next to no existing in the other smaller cities where car ownership is highest.
It's bonkers.
I have first hand good experience from France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Germany. I've also driven across Poland, and that was where I had to start planning charging, rather than just go wherever, which is why I say west Europe, not just EU.
Austria looks less dense than Germany and Switzerland, but still good – DC fast chargers along highways, and over 100 fast chargers in Vienna.
Austrian Alps have poorer coverage, but that's not surprising — there aren't many roads there either, but still there are enough chargers to cross them in an EV, so at least as a tourist I don't think I'd have major difficulty.
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
Austria looks less dense than Germany and Switzerland, but still good – DC fast chargers along highways, and over 100 fast chargers in Vienna.
Austrian Alps have poorer coverage, but that's not surprising — there aren't many roads there either, but still there are enough chargers to cross them in an EV, so at least as a tourist I don't think I'd have major difficulty.
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
To be fair Benelux and the Nordics are far ahead in terms of EV infrastructure that the rest of "western Europe" whatever that term means if it's geographical, political or economicall.
And what's the point of highly dense cities like Vienna having much better EV charging infrastructure, when most of the people there usually use the excellent public transportation so car ownership is low anyway. EV infrastructure Investments should happen precisely in the places with lesser density where cars are a necessity but those are the ones with the lest EV infrastructure precisely as you pointed out.
And what's the point of highly dense cities like Vienna having much better EV charging infrastructure, when most of the people there usually use the excellent public transportation so car ownership is low anyway. EV infrastructure Investments should happen precisely in the places with lesser density where cars are a necessity but those are the ones with the lest EV infrastructure precisely as you pointed out.
On 65k public chargers though and only another 20k added per year.
There are close to 30m households so only about 3% of households have a charger.
There are close to 30m households so only about 3% of households have a charger.
> Of households in Great Britain, 18 million (65%) either have, or have the potential to offer, off-street parking for at least one vehicle.
https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing-st...
Lots of potential there. I guess some might just slow charge from a socket too.
https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing-st...
Lots of potential there. I guess some might just slow charge from a socket too.
Can at least any of them to charge a car anonymously?
In the UK you can't drive anywhere anonymously. The network of ANPR cameras is incredibly extensive.
Every standard outlet.
[deleted]
okasaki(1)
My parents in the Netherlands bought an EV two years ago. They live in an apartment without their own charger in the building. Mostly my father just uses one of several public slow chargers in the neighborhood; once a week or so. He checks on his phone when one is available, drives there and plugs in. They also use chargers at hotels when they are traveling and are typically booking things with chargers available. Destination charging is a thing. Drive somewhere, plug in, do what you came to do, and drive back with enough charge to get home.
They went on a longer trip to France half a year ago. That's the first time he used a rapid charger. The most stressful thing with that is figuring out the payment systems. It's getting better but there are still way too many options for that. Recently Tesla super chargers became an option as well for them (lots of those) and those seem to work best. They drive a Renault.
Anyway, this is very typical behavior with EVs. You charge when it's convenient instead of when you have to. Mostly you are not going to run out on a normal day. It's only on longer journeys that you need to do a bit of planning (make sure the car is charged up before you leave, pick where & when to rapid charge). The worst case is having to take a 45 minute break or so when it's not convenient. That can happen but mostly you can plan to combine that with lunch or something else. And my father is 75, so he needs to have breaks more frequently than the car.