New Architecture is here(reactnative.dev)
reactnative.dev
New Architecture is here
https://reactnative.dev/blog/2024/10/23/the-new-architecture-is-here
126 comments
Congratulations! You've described the universal experience of using cross-platform frameworks.
They can be great as long as you and your customers stay on their most well-trodden path. But as these frameworks grow and become more byzantine, and as your project requirements start reaching for more rarified features and your customers start using new and differing runtime platforms, maintenance overhead starts to dominate and you find yourself running into invisible walls that make it hard for you to deliver on your project roadmap or satisfy the support standards you want for your customers.
This has always been the case for these frameworks, going back many decades, but especially since the explosion of efforts to build them around web stacks, which are easier for developers to use but harder for framework designers to keep sufficiently robust and capable as they age.
They can be great as long as you and your customers stay on their most well-trodden path. But as these frameworks grow and become more byzantine, and as your project requirements start reaching for more rarified features and your customers start using new and differing runtime platforms, maintenance overhead starts to dominate and you find yourself running into invisible walls that make it hard for you to deliver on your project roadmap or satisfy the support standards you want for your customers.
This has always been the case for these frameworks, going back many decades, but especially since the explosion of efforts to build them around web stacks, which are easier for developers to use but harder for framework designers to keep sufficiently robust and capable as they age.
There's no free lunch when it comes to targeting multiple platforms. It sucks to have to maintain separate iOS, android, and web apps, and it also sucks to use a cross platform framework.
But I still feel in the end that for many CRUD style apps it's worth it to deal with react native's problems, especially if you can also have significant code sharing with your web app.
If you're trying to build the next snapchat or tiktok you'd better go full native though.
But I still feel in the end that for many CRUD style apps it's worth it to deal with react native's problems, especially if you can also have significant code sharing with your web app.
If you're trying to build the next snapchat or tiktok you'd better go full native though.
> It is not uncommon to have bugs on certain Android brands, with the community on github reporting the bug but waiting months for it to be fixed.
Welcome to Android. That's not just a React Native issue
https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j...
Welcome to Android. That's not just a React Native issue
https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j...
Soooo.. more react-native contributors have bought in to the Apple ecosystem, so frameworks and components are better designed and tested there?
Which similar frameworks' developers have subscribed to the Android ecosystem and do much better work there?
Which similar frameworks' developers have subscribed to the Android ecosystem and do much better work there?
Having used both RN and Flutter quite a bit I also much prefer Flutter, despite being a big fan of Typescript and React for the web.
Flutter just feels like a much more polished and stable platform built explicitly for purpose and I've never had any performance issues.
Flutter just feels like a much more polished and stable platform built explicitly for purpose and I've never had any performance issues.
Flutter on the web is an absolute JOKE though. React native web & react-strict-dom seem far superior. The moment you want to support web as well, react-native blows flutter away.
Also how's the accessibility on Flutter? I'm pretty skeptical that it's going to have decent accessibility given the game-engine style rendering.
Also how's the accessibility on Flutter? I'm pretty skeptical that it's going to have decent accessibility given the game-engine style rendering.
This has actually changed a lot recently since everything now compiles down to WASM along with a bunch of other improvements. Flutter web absolutely makes sense all of a sudden in a bunch of contexts.
That is all too before they have even touched bringing WebGPU in so I think in a medium term scenario it will be an extremely safe bet.
Just by way of example Google Earth just did a major rewrite to put Flutter at the heart of their UI precisely because it was a better experience including on web so I offer that anecdote to suggest your info is kind of out of date.
That is all too before they have even touched bringing WebGPU in so I think in a medium term scenario it will be an extremely safe bet.
Just by way of example Google Earth just did a major rewrite to put Flutter at the heart of their UI precisely because it was a better experience including on web so I offer that anecdote to suggest your info is kind of out of date.
In the end though, it's still rendering to a canvas. Flutter is basically the new flash. If you are in a business segment where lacking best-in-class accessibility could lead to huge ADA lawsuits, I'd steer clear of anything that isn't rendering real DOM elements.
Google Earth is almost like a video game so flutter makes perfect sense for that. If you're building a fintech CRUD app flutter makes absolutely no sense on the web.
With react native web you can share your code with next.js in a monorepo and absolutely blow flutter away in terms of page weight and time to first interaction.
Google Earth is almost like a video game so flutter makes perfect sense for that. If you're building a fintech CRUD app flutter makes absolutely no sense on the web.
With react native web you can share your code with next.js in a monorepo and absolutely blow flutter away in terms of page weight and time to first interaction.
I agree I would not choose Flutter if web is a primary platform for what you're doing.
At the time of writing this comment, we've got:
1 person talking about how they wish react native didn't exist
1 person asking about Capacitor
1 person complaining about Expo
1 person saying that they wouldn't use react native and recommending Kotlin Multiplatform instead
1 person complaining about the quality of the discussion (Me)
0 people talking about the new architecture
I still love Hacker News but the discussions are becoming increasingly pointless.
All that's missing is:
1 person complaining about the style in which the article was written
1 person talking about how they wish react native didn't exist
1 person asking about Capacitor
1 person complaining about Expo
1 person saying that they wouldn't use react native and recommending Kotlin Multiplatform instead
1 person complaining about the quality of the discussion (Me)
0 people talking about the new architecture
I still love Hacker News but the discussions are becoming increasingly pointless.
All that's missing is:
1 person complaining about the style in which the article was written
You forget:
1 person complaining about the amount of JavaScript loaded just to display this one article
1 person complaining about the amount of JavaScript loaded just to display this one article
Should we also complain at the amount of bootstrapping your OS had to do before your browser could show said site?
Yes, absolutely. Just because it's been hidden behind decades of advances in CPU and storage technology doesn't mean it's not incredibly wasteful.
Explain to me why rendering html in javascript in wasteful? GNOME and Edge does the exact same thing for ther shells.
The site doesn't even load at all now (lol)
Reddit does a lot better of job bringing good relevant comments to the top.
I strongly disagree, Reddit brings the most engaging comment to the top, which is usually funny or ironic, but rarely informative.
Congrats on being the person comparing HN to Reddit.
Congrats on being the person comparing HN to Reddit.
It really depends. I guess on more specific subs, sure. Like if this was posted on the react or react native sub.
If this was on programming or even web dev you'd just see "react bad" or "embedding a browser for an app is blablabla" (when react native doesn't even do that)
If this was on programming or even web dev you'd just see "react bad" or "embedding a browser for an app is blablabla" (when react native doesn't even do that)
Reddit has a lower barrier to entry, which will invite lower quality comments. Sadly product officers are starting to flow into HN and other people with no programming experience, so the quality of comments are as such. If there was a fizzbuzz challenge to sign up, i'd bet the comments would not consist of such nonsense.
This is extremely elitist and reductionist. Plenty of the best comments/discussions on HN come from non-programmers. Personally, I like that people from various backgrounds come together like this as it tends to provoke more interesting discussion and makes HN less of an echo chamber than Reddit.
And you are complaining about the complaining. Great work.
EDIT: I’ve added to the problem which is ironic and just missed the delete button.
EDIT: I’ve added to the problem which is ironic and just missed the delete button.
That's literally point #5 of my comment. Didn't you read it?
Congrats. You added nothing to the discussion.
You're not being clever. You're just being argumentative.
I was pointing out the needlessness of your original comment. Why post it in the first place....
Such comments should really be directed at dang who keeps maintaining that there’s no data point to think that the state of discussions are declining.
One way to address this might be to compute some relevance metrics using embeddings (they’re the new hotness after all) and downrank low relevance discussions. I assume it’d be especially effective for the “ads and JavaScript” discussions.
One way to address this might be to compute some relevance metrics using embeddings (they’re the new hotness after all) and downrank low relevance discussions. I assume it’d be especially effective for the “ads and JavaScript” discussions.
>> keeps maintaining that there’s no data point to think that the state of discussions are declining.
I would simply say a lot of contrarian viewpoints, regardless of merit, are downvoted into oblivion. Once you get hammered on something you simply had a different viewpoint on? Users tend to stop commenting for fear of reprisals. Your "karma" on here is not easy to obtain so when people downvote you simply for a differing opinion, it makes it less likely they will wade into a discussion again and find themselves on the wrong side of some Hacker News diva having a bad day.
This means you have a lot of people (like myself) simply opting out of a lot of discussions because if you're not on the right side, your comment will get downvoted immediately. There is no data point on people like myself, so there's no way to tell people that the quality on HN is declining, everything is just fine and normal when in reality, you have a lot of users who aren't engaging for fear of getting downvoted into oblivion.
I would simply say a lot of contrarian viewpoints, regardless of merit, are downvoted into oblivion. Once you get hammered on something you simply had a different viewpoint on? Users tend to stop commenting for fear of reprisals. Your "karma" on here is not easy to obtain so when people downvote you simply for a differing opinion, it makes it less likely they will wade into a discussion again and find themselves on the wrong side of some Hacker News diva having a bad day.
This means you have a lot of people (like myself) simply opting out of a lot of discussions because if you're not on the right side, your comment will get downvoted immediately. There is no data point on people like myself, so there's no way to tell people that the quality on HN is declining, everything is just fine and normal when in reality, you have a lot of users who aren't engaging for fear of getting downvoted into oblivion.
> Your "karma" on here is not easy to obtain so when people downvote you simply for a differing opinion, it makes it less likely they will wade into a discussion again and find themselves on the wrong side of some Hacker News diva having a bad day.
Why do fake internet points matter so much? Yes, karma is difficult to attain, but it also does (almost) nothing other than indicate how active a person is here.
> This means you have a lot of people (like myself) simply opting out of a lot of discussions because if you're not on the right side, your comment will get downvoted immediately.
In short, so what? Does it really matter if one thing you said one time gets downvoted? We're all (supposed to be) adults here. All that happens is fewer people read your comment. Big whoop.
Why do fake internet points matter so much? Yes, karma is difficult to attain, but it also does (almost) nothing other than indicate how active a person is here.
> This means you have a lot of people (like myself) simply opting out of a lot of discussions because if you're not on the right side, your comment will get downvoted immediately.
In short, so what? Does it really matter if one thing you said one time gets downvoted? We're all (supposed to be) adults here. All that happens is fewer people read your comment. Big whoop.
It's not about the points. It's about knowing that writing a comment on a topic is a pointless endeavor, so you withhold. HN, like all communities, has topics that you learn to generally avoid interacting with because the community opinion is so strongly engrained. Going against the community opinion is akin to pushing boulders by hand. Sure, you might make it move once in a while, but do you really want to put in the effort?
You can say it shouldn't matter, but it looks like on every social media platform and for most people, they do care about these things.
>but the discussions are becoming increasingly pointless
And hostile.
Point out that someone is wrong (even with hard evidence at hand) and people will still try to push their deluded conclusions nonetheless.
Same thing for expressing an opinion outside what the hivemind deems acceptable.
Btw, I think this phenomenon is a widespread cultural thing, not HN specific. Happens irl so much that it is now almost impossible to have an actual conversation with anybody.
Meanwhile, solitude and suicides are skyrocketing and people do not see the correlation ...
And hostile.
Point out that someone is wrong (even with hard evidence at hand) and people will still try to push their deluded conclusions nonetheless.
Same thing for expressing an opinion outside what the hivemind deems acceptable.
Btw, I think this phenomenon is a widespread cultural thing, not HN specific. Happens irl so much that it is now almost impossible to have an actual conversation with anybody.
Meanwhile, solitude and suicides are skyrocketing and people do not see the correlation ...
I've seen what you're describing and it worries me deeply.
I think it's a combination of:
1. Ragebait being so useful at generating engagement that it's become a standard form of human interaction
2. The Internet making people feel safe from physical repercussions which makes people feel comfortable with treating others badly
3. Internet communities quickly becoming echo chambers where you're forced to pick a side if you want a sense of belonging
So we've been programmed and manipulated to be angry, to be tribal, and to act without fear of retaliation, and all for what? For ads and followers.
I think it's a combination of:
1. Ragebait being so useful at generating engagement that it's become a standard form of human interaction
2. The Internet making people feel safe from physical repercussions which makes people feel comfortable with treating others badly
3. Internet communities quickly becoming echo chambers where you're forced to pick a side if you want a sense of belonging
So we've been programmed and manipulated to be angry, to be tribal, and to act without fear of retaliation, and all for what? For ads and followers.
Oh man, this is a very interesting take.
Indeed, it is definitely the case that this kind of behavior/content gets amplified. When you log in, in some sense, any reality could be crafted just for you, for good or for bad. The overwhelming majority of people are vulnerable to this. What they see == what they think it's real, me included, btw.
I once read an article about how the vast majority of dating now begins through an online interaction (say , Tinder), and how also the vast majority of these apps are controlled by 2-3 companies. Think about the massive power they have over everyone else's lives. You want to encourage interracial relationships? Suppress matches within the same race and encourage matches outside of it. (And the opposite could be done, I'm not making a political statement here). These people have the power to completely change the demographic landscape of a country in a couple decades(!). They should be heavily regulated, but far from it, no one is even aware of this.
It will only get worse with "AI", unfortunately.
Indeed, it is definitely the case that this kind of behavior/content gets amplified. When you log in, in some sense, any reality could be crafted just for you, for good or for bad. The overwhelming majority of people are vulnerable to this. What they see == what they think it's real, me included, btw.
I once read an article about how the vast majority of dating now begins through an online interaction (say , Tinder), and how also the vast majority of these apps are controlled by 2-3 companies. Think about the massive power they have over everyone else's lives. You want to encourage interracial relationships? Suppress matches within the same race and encourage matches outside of it. (And the opposite could be done, I'm not making a political statement here). These people have the power to completely change the demographic landscape of a country in a couple decades(!). They should be heavily regulated, but far from it, no one is even aware of this.
It will only get worse with "AI", unfortunately.
It's funny too, because what New Architecture allows (direct access to native interfaces) could solve a lot of the problems with having to fight external dependency hell - you can now write your own, so there's no excuses.
But, somehow devs _still_ expect a 100% perfect DX while maintaining the ability to publish to mind-boggling different targets such as iOS, Android, and Web
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But, somehow devs _still_ expect a 100% perfect DX while maintaining the ability to publish to mind-boggling different targets such as iOS, Android, and Web
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm a Flutter dev since 2018 and I am honestly not sure if Flutter or React Native still make sense in 2024 and onwards.
When they emerged, the mobile development scene was completely different than today.
Today, we have Swift UI and Compose, both are pretty solid. I'm not sure if it's the consensus amongst mobile developers, but I believe that on the mid/long run you will be better off - even if you write things twice. In terms of end user experience, developer experience, and in the business sense, everywhere.
Sure if you have an Flutter / RN app that has years of engineering efforts invested into it, go ahead and continue (duh), but I wouldn't start new apps with them.
When they emerged, the mobile development scene was completely different than today.
Today, we have Swift UI and Compose, both are pretty solid. I'm not sure if it's the consensus amongst mobile developers, but I believe that on the mid/long run you will be better off - even if you write things twice. In terms of end user experience, developer experience, and in the business sense, everywhere.
Sure if you have an Flutter / RN app that has years of engineering efforts invested into it, go ahead and continue (duh), but I wouldn't start new apps with them.
> I believe that on the mid/long run you will be better off - even if you write things twice.
People have believed this the whole time and also a ton of people didn't then and don't now. What has actually changed?
People have believed this the whole time and also a ton of people didn't then and don't now. What has actually changed?
Swift and Kotlin are now the de-facto languages for these two platforms for new development, and Swift UI and Compose got released and gained traction since 2018.
I agree with you only in terms of Flutter and Web: Been a Flutter dev since years now as well and would definitely NOT encourage it for the Web.
That said, it is absolutely up there with the best choices for mobile app dev these days.
I don't see any reason not to use it there, and the industry seems to be thinking in the same direction atm
That said, it is absolutely up there with the best choices for mobile app dev these days.
I don't see any reason not to use it there, and the industry seems to be thinking in the same direction atm
I got my Flutter app running on iOS, Windows, Linux, and Android. The web version is quite serviceable a well. Totally responsive and with good desktop integration on Windows & Linux. For me, talking about the "mobile development scene" is outdated. I want my app to run on every screen. That's either web or Flutter, Swift UI and Compose just don't fit the bill for me. I like both Web & Flutter, depending on the use-case. I tried React Native for Linux and Windows, but found it too complicated to set up, Flutter just worked. Curious if that has gotten better.
Native dev here throughout my career, I always start projects in both native. Now, it’s SwiftUI and Jetpack Compose. I don’t do cross platforms ever, it doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t know why though.
By Compose, do you mean Jetpack Compose?
Yes. Compose Multiplatform is just not there yet, and will unfortunately share lot of the downsides of Flutter.
Hmm, what about desktop and/or web?
Compose UI has the potential answer there, as well: https://www.jetbrains.com/compose-multiplatform/
Great, another one. Recently someone else was touting something called avalonia for .net? Then there are older ones that still exist, like Kivy and QT.
These folks should be working together on just a few open-source projects :-D. Trying to support every mainstream platform is a huge undertaking and as mentioned in this thread, few succeed, and even fewer over the long term.
These folks should be working together on just a few open-source projects :-D. Trying to support every mainstream platform is a huge undertaking and as mentioned in this thread, few succeed, and even fewer over the long term.
I think that's an absolutely reasonable reaction. I can only say that, as someone that primarily works on Android, I'll of course prefer Compose UI since it's technically the "native" solution for me already. And while reading further, keep in mind that my views are going to be biased towards Kotlin and such for that reason, of course. There's also the additional disclaimer that it's still relatively early days, and the developer experience isn't perfect out of the box with every platform, just yet.
By opting for Kotlin and Compose UI, in addition to being a first-class citizen on Android, I gain the ability to share code with many other platforms to any degree I need. That is, just the app logic can be done in Kotlin while keeping the actual UI in whatever each platform prefers (UIKit on Apple platforms, Swing on JVM, etc.), or it can be entirely done with Compose UI (which usually means being rendered via something like Skia). And even if you adopt Compose UI, there are different degrees to which that can be applied; Compose UI can output either DOM elements or render to a canvas for the Web target, for example. (It's actually curious you mentioned Qt. As a day-to-day KDE user, I'm interested in playing around with the possibility of wrapping Qt components with Kotlin/Compose as well.)
No matter what degree of that I choose, it's still going to be more "native" than something like RN. Depending on the target platform, Kotlin will compile down to JVM/Dalvik bytecode, LLVM bitcode/machine code, JavaScript, WASM, etc. RN (last I checked, at least) still relies on running in a JavaScript engine at the end of the day. Flutter will get you closer than RN, but it's still not quite native to any one platform in particular and you're still introducing Dart as another language you need to know. A .NET-based solution suffers a similar problem, and IMO it feels even more out of place on Linux than the rest.
(To be clear, Compose UI has been able to learn a lot from Flutter, as they both originated at Google and both take a declarative UI approach; I largely consider Compose UI to be Flutter's successor.)
Ultimately, it can boil down to this: if you want to support multiple platforms, you need expertise in each. Adding most traditional cross-platform frameworks such as Flutter or RN also means you need expertise in that framework as well. In the worst case, my expertise with Compose UI will remain good for the work I need to do on Android. The worst case for most of these other frameworks is that it becomes irrelevant and you need to learn something else anyway.
By opting for Kotlin and Compose UI, in addition to being a first-class citizen on Android, I gain the ability to share code with many other platforms to any degree I need. That is, just the app logic can be done in Kotlin while keeping the actual UI in whatever each platform prefers (UIKit on Apple platforms, Swing on JVM, etc.), or it can be entirely done with Compose UI (which usually means being rendered via something like Skia). And even if you adopt Compose UI, there are different degrees to which that can be applied; Compose UI can output either DOM elements or render to a canvas for the Web target, for example. (It's actually curious you mentioned Qt. As a day-to-day KDE user, I'm interested in playing around with the possibility of wrapping Qt components with Kotlin/Compose as well.)
No matter what degree of that I choose, it's still going to be more "native" than something like RN. Depending on the target platform, Kotlin will compile down to JVM/Dalvik bytecode, LLVM bitcode/machine code, JavaScript, WASM, etc. RN (last I checked, at least) still relies on running in a JavaScript engine at the end of the day. Flutter will get you closer than RN, but it's still not quite native to any one platform in particular and you're still introducing Dart as another language you need to know. A .NET-based solution suffers a similar problem, and IMO it feels even more out of place on Linux than the rest.
(To be clear, Compose UI has been able to learn a lot from Flutter, as they both originated at Google and both take a declarative UI approach; I largely consider Compose UI to be Flutter's successor.)
Ultimately, it can boil down to this: if you want to support multiple platforms, you need expertise in each. Adding most traditional cross-platform frameworks such as Flutter or RN also means you need expertise in that framework as well. In the worst case, my expertise with Compose UI will remain good for the work I need to do on Android. The worst case for most of these other frameworks is that it becomes irrelevant and you need to learn something else anyway.
Thanks. Wow, Flutter and JPC coming from the same company make me less likely to use either, haha. Decisions, decisions.
Did much of the JPC team get let go like the Flutter team in the last big round of layoffs?
Did much of the JPC team get let go like the Flutter team in the last big round of layoffs?
I don't want to say you should never, under any circumstances, use cross platform tools. Sure, if you have Android, iOS, web, macOS, Linux and Windows apps that are all roughly the same, go ahead and use cross platform technologies.
I don't think most apps are like that, though. If it is worth having a desktop app (instead of just, you know, having a web app), than that app is probably relying heavily on native integration. Also, mobile apps and desktop apps are usually quite different (as they should), those are two completely different interfaces.
About web, I'm not sure about RN, but Flutter IMO is so terrible on web, that it's so rare that it would make sense to use it, that my default advice would be that write the web in something different, even if you use Flutter already on mobile and desktop.
I don't think most apps are like that, though. If it is worth having a desktop app (instead of just, you know, having a web app), than that app is probably relying heavily on native integration. Also, mobile apps and desktop apps are usually quite different (as they should), those are two completely different interfaces.
About web, I'm not sure about RN, but Flutter IMO is so terrible on web, that it's so rare that it would make sense to use it, that my default advice would be that write the web in something different, even if you use Flutter already on mobile and desktop.
Well, I need to make a media-player type of app, that will run on Linux/Wayland devices, which are like small desktops. Mainstream mobile devices would be a nice-to-have too, but there are so many bureaucratic issues, like getting into stores I might just avoid them for now. Web stuff can stay web.
Was thinking of learning Flutter or even RN, but now not so sure. On the other hand, it could mean writing it three times.
Was thinking of learning Flutter or even RN, but now not so sure. On the other hand, it could mean writing it three times.
I've used React Native quite a bit in the past and I gotta say I wish it didn't have to exist at all.
It's often times fine on iOS and then incredibly slow on Android. Hermes is very exciting but still requires many polyfills to make simple NPM packages work. I hope one day, the web (and embedding web apps on mobile) makes React Native fully obsolete.
It's often times fine on iOS and then incredibly slow on Android. Hermes is very exciting but still requires many polyfills to make simple NPM packages work. I hope one day, the web (and embedding web apps on mobile) makes React Native fully obsolete.
Who would've thought steve jobs was right (although premature) with the initial iPhones only having web apps.
That's interesting though, I would've expected iOS to be slower with android largely leveraging chrome because Google.
That's interesting though, I would've expected iOS to be slower with android largely leveraging chrome because Google.
Premature by 17+ years? He was and remains completely wrong.
With all of the APIs _modern_ browsers are exposing these days, web apps are extremely capable and remain the best multi-platform solution.
No? Most modern apps these days _are_ just web apps. Why does it need the overhead architecture of running full standalone applications when a web clip works just as well? Plus there's no need for updating.
The problem at the time was multifaceted. The devices couldn't handle it, the network couldn't handle it, and webkit was still relatively limited. But it did work. https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/03/remembering-apples-sweet-solu...
The problem at the time was multifaceted. The devices couldn't handle it, the network couldn't handle it, and webkit was still relatively limited. But it did work. https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/03/remembering-apples-sweet-solu...
I have never, ever used a web app that runs as well as the native app.
Oh, well I can provide an example. Music League’s PWA on iOS is quite a bit better than the app — partly because you can avoid the ads!
Performance isn’t incredible, but neither is the “native” app (95% sure it’s react native or similar), which frequently dips below 60fps.
Performance isn’t incredible, but neither is the “native” app (95% sure it’s react native or similar), which frequently dips below 60fps.
If that's the case, then why does nearly every company have a native app in addition to their website? Surely, they could save a lot of time and money by just not building and maintaining the app.
Because it's a pain in the ass to distribute. And there's not much for support integrated into mobile operating systems for seamless browser windows.
MacOS is getting there kind of lately with safari being able to turn web pages into apps. But there isn't really built in mechanisms for that: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/14/how-web-apps-work-macos...
MacOS is getting there kind of lately with safari being able to turn web pages into apps. But there isn't really built in mechanisms for that: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/14/how-web-apps-work-macos...
Web apps will always on paper be slower (not including badly made applications on both) than native apps, and also bring in additional security issues (since code is loaded remotely) than native applications.
apps built using the webview don't necessarily have to be loaded remotely. If you're building with capacitor, then nothing happens remotely until you choose.
The part about being slower is still true though.
The part about being slower is still true though.
The funny part is that it’s actually not a pain in the ass to distribute. On iOS, saving the current link to the homescreeen installs the PWA (if available). You don’t have to do anything other than tap a button in the share menu. iOS treats it like an app, showing it in the app switcher and search, etc.
People just don’t know it’s an option. And as you say, there are fewer native APIs available to it.
People just don’t know it’s an option. And as you say, there are fewer native APIs available to it.
Native apps make more money, because of phone data. A lot of effort is now put into facilitating cross-platform builds, a wrapper/container around a glorified web app is among the easiest ways
There's no adblock for native apps. Also, they can keep running/monitoring-you in the background easier.
Most modern apps are just services. If you don’t mind you computer being a thin client to someone’s computer on the internet, go ahead. But the rest of us do use native software because the web is just a pale imitation.
[deleted]
Reddit is a better place for non technical discussions.
That doesn't make sense to me at all. When you delegate heavy workloads to native view engines, both rendering and interfacing with native media/sdp will undoubtly be faster. The only issue i can see is if you install a lot of web only npm packages which has to go through the translation layer.
That's not what react native is for. Its for building native applications with a react-like syntax for the views. To me it seems like you used hammer to put in screws, no?
That's not what react native is for. Its for building native applications with a react-like syntax for the views. To me it seems like you used hammer to put in screws, no?
I've had the complete opposite experience. React Native has been amazing for the team I work on. It's fast, quick to develop in, and I've never felt blocked. Camera, TCP sockets, custom Bluetooth protocols, Protobuf, etc. React Native + libraries do it all.
We don't use Expo, either. It's very painless.
We don't use Expo, either. It's very painless.
We use Expo/RN for Bluesky. The way I see it, if it's a separate codebase then it's a separate product. I honestly don't think we could've survived trying to build 3 different apps at once, so when I get hit with one of the warts (and believe me we hit them) it's not hard to shrug it off.
The team has been able to progressively target the different platforms where needed with native modules and TS files targeting the arch. Expo's build plugins have also saved our bacon.
We've been pretty excited for the new architecture. Our early tests show a lot of performance benefits on android, and so far the conversion process has been pretty good.
The team has been able to progressively target the different platforms where needed with native modules and TS files targeting the arch. Expo's build plugins have also saved our bacon.
We've been pretty excited for the new architecture. Our early tests show a lot of performance benefits on android, and so far the conversion process has been pretty good.
I helped write this post, so feel free to ask me anything about the New Architecture!
First off, thanks for all the work! I have a few questions if thats ok:
1. What is the next thing that the team wants to focus on improving?
2. What are the performance differences between the old architecture & new one?
3. What are your thoughts on the fragmented state of rn wrt react-native-web/react-native-windows/react-native-macos?
4. It is quite difficult to know what supports RN vs what relies on react-dom. Is there any thought to create some ecosystem focused around RN? Or if something like that is too cumbersone, perhaps even just adding some badge to github pages for "Supports RN"?
5. I forget what it was called, but the creator of react-native-web stated that they wanted to start winding down support in favor of an alternate approach which attempts to bring web apis to native instead of trying to make the native api work on web. I.e. instantiate div elements in native instead of view. What are your thoughts on this?
6. React (and IMO Meta as a whole) seems to generally have had the tech philosophy of take what you want, leave what you dont. With the dropping of create-react-app and endorsement of frameworks like Expo, it seems like its getting harder to just take the pieces we want. Is there any thought about this trend?
7. Related: as for the upgrade process: it would be cool if there were a way to "opt-in" to auto upgrades. E.g. what if there were a package which contained a base class controlled by the RN team so that a client side upgrade could be as simple as updating the version of the library the base class is in? (customization would be simple extending the class and doing w/e else needed there)
Again, thanks for all the work!
1. What is the next thing that the team wants to focus on improving?
2. What are the performance differences between the old architecture & new one?
3. What are your thoughts on the fragmented state of rn wrt react-native-web/react-native-windows/react-native-macos?
4. It is quite difficult to know what supports RN vs what relies on react-dom. Is there any thought to create some ecosystem focused around RN? Or if something like that is too cumbersone, perhaps even just adding some badge to github pages for "Supports RN"?
5. I forget what it was called, but the creator of react-native-web stated that they wanted to start winding down support in favor of an alternate approach which attempts to bring web apis to native instead of trying to make the native api work on web. I.e. instantiate div elements in native instead of view. What are your thoughts on this?
6. React (and IMO Meta as a whole) seems to generally have had the tech philosophy of take what you want, leave what you dont. With the dropping of create-react-app and endorsement of frameworks like Expo, it seems like its getting harder to just take the pieces we want. Is there any thought about this trend?
7. Related: as for the upgrade process: it would be cool if there were a way to "opt-in" to auto upgrades. E.g. what if there were a package which contained a base class controlled by the RN team so that a client side upgrade could be as simple as updating the version of the library the base class is in? (customization would be simple extending the class and doing w/e else needed there)
Again, thanks for all the work!
That's a lot of questions, thanks for asking! I'll stick to answering the ones related to the new arch.
The next thing is to continue building on this foundation and fix some long standing issues things like scroll perf and text input. A lot of our focus has been on the gradual migration strategy for the new arch, so now we'll have more capacity to work on other things.
For perf differences, we shared some benchmarks here: https://github.com/reactwg/react-native-new-architecture/dis...
But perf alone doesn't really tell the whole story. In raw perf terms, flashing empty content for just one frame is only a few milliseconds, but user is disproportionally impacted by that flicker. The new arch allows us to fix those types of issue in addition to the raw perf wins.
The next thing is to continue building on this foundation and fix some long standing issues things like scroll perf and text input. A lot of our focus has been on the gradual migration strategy for the new arch, so now we'll have more capacity to work on other things.
For perf differences, we shared some benchmarks here: https://github.com/reactwg/react-native-new-architecture/dis...
But perf alone doesn't really tell the whole story. In raw perf terms, flashing empty content for just one frame is only a few milliseconds, but user is disproportionally impacted by that flicker. The new arch allows us to fix those types of issue in addition to the raw perf wins.
Please pass along to everyone on RN how much the Bluesky team appreciates your work. We're excited to put the new arch into prod.
Will do, thanks paul big fan of your work
Where are the performance benchmarks (and comparisons with Flutter)?
I don't know of any Flutter comparisons, but we shared some benchmarks here: https://github.com/reactwg/react-native-new-architecture/dis...
Thank you! Slightly off topic but every time new Xcode versions happen or as a result of time passing I always seem to get a messed up/corrupted Xcode project and so I end up copying the src folder and create a new project usually with an updated React Native version. This can be a real pain to be honest, taking sometimes a day or two of messing around with package version compatibility hell.
Is there a plan to fix this flakiness that I experience every 3 months or so?
Is there a plan to fix this flakiness that I experience every 3 months or so?
Yeah this is a tricky problem, and it's one of the reasons we updated our recommendation to use a framework like Expo that can make upgrades be smoother by being more opinionated about the setup.
As the core library, we need to support all the different ways React Native can be added to an app (from fully react native to adding react native to an existing app) and all the different build tools an existing app may use. So it's hard for us to be opinionated about the setup in a way that would make upgrades seamless, but a framework can solve this for you.
As the core library, we need to support all the different ways React Native can be added to an app (from fully react native to adding react native to an existing app) and all the different build tools an existing app may use. So it's hard for us to be opinionated about the setup in a way that would make upgrades seamless, but a framework can solve this for you.
Maybe I can un-eject given the plugins system from Expo. I do not like the way they throw all your code around though and I think this ability to steal peoples work given the prevalence of LLMs to unobsfuscate code is problematic. You should consider providing a way to drop the bundle in in byte code or something too... while I'm writing out my laundry list of issues ;-)
Seriously, thanks for all your (and team's) hard work, I look forward to all my packages being on the new architecture and upgrading!
Seriously, thanks for all your (and team's) hard work, I look forward to all my packages being on the new architecture and upgrading!
I did a performance test last year, rendering thousands of views, and Flutter's rendering speed was 5 times faster than React Native. I wonder if this version will be improved after the update.
Interestingly, I used React on the web to render the same number of views, and its speed was much faster than React Native.
OK,just now I tested the new version and it is still slow.
Use "npx create-expo-app@latest --template default@beta" to install new version. Start with production mode, using android device, it takes about 300ms to render 2000 Views. The same test on React web is still much faster.
Use "npx create-expo-app@latest --template default@beta" to install new version. Start with production mode, using android device, it takes about 300ms to render 2000 Views. The same test on React web is still much faster.
I'm speaking out of turn here since I'm not a React Native developer but, it seems to me that it suffers from the penalty of having to use the JS bridge that neither Flutter nor web use.
In the post we explain that this release removes the bridge, so the JS thread calls C++ directly without a queue, serialization, or bridge: https://reactnative.dev/blog/2024/10/23/the-new-architecture...
Thanks for the clarification.
I'm telling you, Flutter has amazing performance (+ incredible dev experience).
Seems to be a lot of negativity around RN, and I can understand that if you haven't used it in a while. But these days I have nothing but great things to say about React Native when used with Expo. It's great to want custom bespoke individual native apps for each platform but as a solo dev that just isn't really practical and RN has enabled me to ship things I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. Also that hot reloading react DX is just great in general. And I really want the RN model of using the platforms native controls to win out vs rendering everything to a canvas like Flutter.
Can't wait to try out the new arch when 0.76 lands in expo.
Can't wait to try out the new arch when 0.76 lands in expo.
Is Capacitor a viable solution yet? I saw this tweet saying "it just works" for porting a webapp on NextJS: https://x.com/marc_louvion/status/1836023560462360746
It's a very basic, indie hacker, habit tracker app, if Capacitor wouldn't "just work" for that, that would be really bad.
Most mobile apps (at least the ones that get you paid), though, are different, usually need good quality integration with native APIs, keyboard, etc...
Most mobile apps (at least the ones that get you paid), though, are different, usually need good quality integration with native APIs, keyboard, etc...
Capacitor is really cool because it allows you to build a web app in iOS and Android and access the platform APIs from JavaScript. The rendering layer is a bit different though, because in React Native you can use the platform APIs _and_ the platform components. In React Native, the views you render on iOS are the same UIKit UIViews that a native app would write. In Capacitor, these are DOM elements in a webview. There are different tradeoffs, but this difference is what makes React Native look and feel more native.
I've used it to build a couple of apps for money. It does work and most of the times it seems really easy. However, these were simple apps that fetch data from a server and display it to users. I did use an Admob plugin and that worked quite well.
In my opinion no. Capacitor has the same pitfalls like NativeScript. They're both clunky and lacks proper integration between the native layer and the emulated javascript world.
No matter what framework you roll with, you're gonna hit the same ol' clunky mess—it's just how app development goes.
The trick is, some frameworks smooth over the rough spots and throw a few sweet perks your way, while others give you a taste of both the good and the gritty.
The trick is, some frameworks smooth over the rough spots and throw a few sweet perks your way, while others give you a taste of both the good and the gritty.
That is true and neither platform is free from their issues. But NativeScript, Capacitor, Ionic and at last... Cordova. Has each of ther own oddities. NativeScript has a really awesome typing translation of the native apis to typescript. That's honestly the most fantastic to work with of any of all of them. Great for prototyping.
But when it comes to performance. None of them beats RN. You can make some good looking continous animation of most of them (not cordova or ionic). But when it comes to lag when moving between screens, RN on mobile comes on top without doubt.
But when it comes to performance. None of them beats RN. You can make some good looking continous animation of most of them (not cordova or ionic). But when it comes to lag when moving between screens, RN on mobile comes on top without doubt.
Is there any sane way of using RN without locking into the Expo ecosystem? Last I checked it was a nightmare dealing with native dependencies otherwise.
Config plugins have made this way easier - you’re now able to hook into the native code generation process to add native modules that aren’t already packaged for expo.
Been working on one RN project Expo-free since 0.6x. It's really not needed at all, neither is it complicated to set up without Expo.
I've only used Expo during hackathons and university to quickly get something running, but for actual production apps it's should be avoided imo.
I've only used Expo during hackathons and university to quickly get something running, but for actual production apps it's should be avoided imo.
that's an interesting perspective, curious to what your reasons are for avoiding expo in production?
Last time I played around with React Native was probably around when it first launched, there was no Expo then, and I haven't used React Native since so I don't even know what Expo is.
But another commentator wrote "yet another SaaS with questionable payment tiers" about Expo (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41937886) which makes me already not want to use it if I ever touch React Native again. Not sure why a SaaS would be involved at all in this process.
But another commentator wrote "yet another SaaS with questionable payment tiers" about Expo (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41937886) which makes me already not want to use it if I ever touch React Native again. Not sure why a SaaS would be involved at all in this process.
You don't have to use Expo's SaaS to use Expo. Expo framework is 100% FOSS. However Expo Application Services is a really great SaaS product for doing things like cloud builds and Over-The-Air updates.
The anti expo sentiment is almost all based on the old days where you had to eject to use native dependencies. Expo is amazing now.
The anti expo sentiment is almost all based on the old days where you had to eject to use native dependencies. Expo is amazing now.
I love that you asked this question. As someone who has created a few react native applications in the past, non expo environments has felt as an afterthought. I hope the react native team will improve the documentation and encourage the native platform as well as the expo platform. Some of us don't want to be locked into yet another SaaS with questionable payment tiers - when building your own modules and publishing is:
- Easier in the long run
- You're able to ship a far more featureful application if you deal with media and/or VoIP
- Passing apples reviews seem to be faster if you ship the modules yourself in my experience
- Easier in the long run
- You're able to ship a far more featureful application if you deal with media and/or VoIP
- Passing apples reviews seem to be faster if you ship the modules yourself in my experience
> - You're able to ship a far more featureful application if you deal with media and/or VoIP
Can you expand on this? How does Expo prevent or make it harder for you to ship media- and VOIP-related features?
Can you expand on this? How does Expo prevent or make it harder for you to ship media- and VOIP-related features?
When you're using expo you cannot bundle your own native extensions. At my previous job we used pjsip. This extension uses JNI and native calls in iOS via objective-c. You can't bundle native extensions when using expo. You're locked to their prebuilt ones.
To use your own extensions you have to eject/or start a new application with their own native libraries. For most of what expo does you can use the unimodules libraries, they're quite good in my experience.
To use your own extensions you have to eject/or start a new application with their own native libraries. For most of what expo does you can use the unimodules libraries, they're quite good in my experience.
> When you're using expo you cannot bundle your own native extensions. [...] You're locked to their prebuilt ones.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, this isn't true at all. At $day_job we have an Expo app with a custom native library and it works just fine; you just have to write an Expo-specific adapter for it and can't use Expo Go in that case.
Source: https://docs.expo.dev/workflow/customizing/
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, this isn't true at all. At $day_job we have an Expo app with a custom native library and it works just fine; you just have to write an Expo-specific adapter for it and can't use Expo Go in that case.
Source: https://docs.expo.dev/workflow/customizing/
how long ago was the last time you checked?
expo has solved the native dependencies issue, and it's a fantastic way to build an app.
this is one of the few hills i'm willing to die on. expo is great for the RN community.
also you can download my RN expo app here: www.shopcats.app.
expo has solved the native dependencies issue, and it's a fantastic way to build an app.
this is one of the few hills i'm willing to die on. expo is great for the RN community.
also you can download my RN expo app here: www.shopcats.app.
Having used bare RN for 5 years, and recently started using Expo, there really is no reason to not use Expo at this point.
The native dependencies are 100% solved by prebuilds, CNG, and config plugins.
The native dependencies are 100% solved by prebuilds, CNG, and config plugins.
React Native added auto-linking years ago, which solved the native dependency problems. Just `yarn add` whatever you need, and if it has native code, the the Android side will incorporate it on the next build. On the iOS side, you do have to run `pod install` to lock in the changes, but everything after that is automatic.
Use Expo because you like the extra features it ships with, but not because you have problems with native dependencies. The React Native built-in experience is pretty much perfect to start with.
Use Expo because you like the extra features it ships with, but not because you have problems with native dependencies. The React Native built-in experience is pretty much perfect to start with.
React native is finally pretty good this year. It still has problems but I feel like it's really starting to pick up momentum.
When react-strict-dom is totally ready for prime time it's going to be a game changer and react native will become an absolute juggernaut.
When react-strict-dom is totally ready for prime time it's going to be a game changer and react native will become an absolute juggernaut.
How so? What makes this a game changer for the average dev?
With react-strict-dom, you'll be able to have far better code sharing between web and native. It will greatly assist the development of universal apps that target Web, iOS, and Android.
Right now react-native-web is not nearly as good as iOS and Android react-native. react-strict-dom is a massive leap forward for universal apps.
Right now react-native-web is not nearly as good as iOS and Android react-native. react-strict-dom is a massive leap forward for universal apps.
I have built a React Native app in the past. Nowadays I would go for Kotlin Multiplatform. It is already the primary language on Android and now it is possible to create native binaries on iOS. With Compose multiplatform it also has the ability to also share UI code with a declarative syntax on multiple platforms.
I think React Native was the go to place in the past but it has been surpassed now.
I think React Native was the go to place in the past but it has been surpassed now.
This is pretty incredible, kudos to the team! I wonder if there's still an option to call native modules asynchronously (since I'd guess the synchronous native calls block JS execution?)
Also, I remember transferring lots of data through the bridge could be a bottleneck for some use cases. Is that effectively solved with this architecture?
Also, I remember transferring lots of data through the bridge could be a bottleneck for some use cases. Is that effectively solved with this architecture?
I'm not familiar with UI development at all, but I'm kind of amazed that the old solution of a giant async bridge where the renderer enqueued native function calls worked at all. What was the initial reasoning behind this architecture? (that is to say, why did it seem like a good idea at the time?)
Guys, help me understand these changes:
Can I comprehend this as a new Virtual Native UI immutable tree running in native space?
And react native mounts and updates basically synchronally updating this immutable tree and reconciliation being done in native space, dynamically updating the app layout?
Can I comprehend this as a new Virtual Native UI immutable tree running in native space?
And react native mounts and updates basically synchronally updating this immutable tree and reconciliation being done in native space, dynamically updating the app layout?
Kind of. We already had a native UI tree running in native (the same way the browser has it's own internal representation of the DOM). The difference in this release is that we rewrote it in C++ and made it immutable. That means instead of having a different UI tree in each platform (one for iOS, one for Android, etc), we have one C++ tree that all platforms use. And since it's immutable, it's thread safe and we can read layout and commit it from different threads if needed.
Reconciliation is still done in React on the JS thread, similar to React DOM.
Reconciliation is still done in React on the JS thread, similar to React DOM.
Thanks for the clarification. Dumb question:
How does the renderer ensure consistency in case o multiple immutable tree references?
How does the renderer ensure consistency in case o multiple immutable tree references?
Wondering the same (replying to easier find your comment and hopefully the answer since i cant favorite comments)
Love react native, I'll be updating to this version soon. Really hoping it makes suspense work correctly with libs like Relay. Well done and thank you RN team.
It’s looking really good so far. Some known issues in the expo and RN ecosystem are called out under the troubleshooting section here:
https://docs.expo.dev/guides/new-architecture/
https://docs.expo.dev/guides/new-architecture/
Could someone suggest a good CRUD starter kit?
Honestly, can we even trust a technology that is not 1.0 ?
It was a mixed experience. When I migrated to expo two years ago, many problems were solved but not all.
But I still encounters bugs and problems with many common dependencies. It is not uncommon to have bugs on certain Android brands, with the community on github reporting the bug but waiting months for it to be fixed.
iOS is by far better and more stable than Android.
Performance is great on iOS, but less great on Android.
Our apps are animation heavy using react-native-reanimated and react-native-skia. Everything went perfect on iOS but we had to remove some animations or simplify them on Android.
Upgrading your dependencies every four months will probably break something somewhere : deep links stop working, some animations stop working, or maybe it's another dependency from the JS world. Sometime the fix is easy, other time an issue with the regression can be found on Github, other time we have no data.
Overall I'd say react-native is perfectly servicable and is easy to learn for anyone, which is a big plus. I'd recommend react-native because it is easy, have a big JS ecosystem, but I am now on the Flutter side.