38th Chaos Communication Congress(events.ccc.de)
events.ccc.de
38th Chaos Communication Congress
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/infos/index.html
208 comments
I would expect most of them bring critical and sceptical about AI, just like the general vibe here on HN.
For me it's all the embedded and crypto stuff.
Crypto as in keys, not crypto as in coins?
Can’t believe I have to ask that these days
Can’t believe I have to ask that these days
This is actually one of the few conferences where I really like pretty much every talk. These are not mainstream, yet all of them convey so much knowledge and information. End of the year is always reserved for watching CCC talks...
Livestreams will be here https://streaming.media.ccc.de/38c3/
Schedule: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/schedu...
Many talks are usually available in the live stream and on demand.
Many talks are usually available in the live stream and on demand.
The ticketing system was horrible, it really was not fair this year around.
Out of curiosity, what was horrible and unfair about it? (Genuine question, I don’t know anything about how it was done.)
It's really a pretty strong web of trust system, if you know anyone who's volunteered previous years there are vouchers floating around by word of mouth.
If you don't know anyone in the community, purchasing a ticket online is a crapshoot. IMO this is a feature not a bug.
If you don't know anyone in the community, purchasing a ticket online is a crapshoot. IMO this is a feature not a bug.
1) Volunteers (who worked 15+ hrs on last congress for free) get two tickets with priority.
2) Hackerspaces get a number of tickets with priority, thru replicating tickets (you can only buy one per day). The amount of replicating tickets given depends on size of area (a hackerspace can be tasked with giving vouchers to relevant people in their city). There's a limited quantity of these tickets, separate from amount of vouchers.
The main point of the congress is primarily to bring the chaos crowd together, then the rest of interested parties. That model may not fit your vision, but chaos events year after year succeed at not leaving out the core crowd.
Also, this year I have bought 2 tickets on public sale for friends without issues (best way to get tickets is to group up with your friends).
It's always taken high effort to buy tickets for c3, needing to be exactly on time (not 30 seconds late) to each sale round.
37c3 was an exception due to low sales, caused by skepticism in the event returning after years of not happening. This year that trust was regained and buying tickets became hard again.
2) Hackerspaces get a number of tickets with priority, thru replicating tickets (you can only buy one per day). The amount of replicating tickets given depends on size of area (a hackerspace can be tasked with giving vouchers to relevant people in their city). There's a limited quantity of these tickets, separate from amount of vouchers.
The main point of the congress is primarily to bring the chaos crowd together, then the rest of interested parties. That model may not fit your vision, but chaos events year after year succeed at not leaving out the core crowd.
Also, this year I have bought 2 tickets on public sale for friends without issues (best way to get tickets is to group up with your friends).
It's always taken high effort to buy tickets for c3, needing to be exactly on time (not 30 seconds late) to each sale round.
37c3 was an exception due to low sales, caused by skepticism in the event returning after years of not happening. This year that trust was regained and buying tickets became hard again.
For me the price of accommodation is pretty prohibitive. It's one of the most expensive times of the year and Germany is also one of the most expensive countries in Europe. I've looked at it once but the hotels were too expensive for me (I think it was in Hamburg then).
But it's ok, I can watch it online. I don't like travelling during this busy period anyway.
But it's ok, I can watch it online. I don't like travelling during this busy period anyway.
There is affordable accomodation: nearby gymnasiums where you bring a "bed" and "duvet" and "towel+shampoo" and get by with like 5 bucks a night.
I dont think thats for everyone. Speaking as someone who has done it.
Of course not, it's for people who can't spend more than five bucks a night.
It's an option for those on a tight budget aka "beggars can't be choosers". Hotels are a lot cheaper if you book a (fully) refundable stay months in advance instead of waiting until you have a ticket.
Friends who booked months earlier still paid a bit of a premium. Much cheaper than now of course, but you should still budget for €150/night or so.
Oh yeah I'm too old for that though :)
Live life, give it a go.
I've done that in the past (I lived in youth hostels for years in fact) but I can't now. Especially because I sleep with a CPAP machine as well.
I was wondering how those work in hostels. I have taken mine with me and gotten one of the eight bunk rooms or so next to an outlet
I just don't take the risk of getting hostels. It's not sure you can get a bunk near an outlet, the machine can be messed with or broken etc.
Most expensive?
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
Some things are pretty cheap compared to other countries, meat for instance
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
Some things are pretty cheap compared to other countries, meat for instance
True but I'm in Spain. Last time I looked a hotel or guesthouse was around 200€ a night which is really a lot for me. Of course this is a time when lots of people travel.
But I didn't mean to complain, just to say it's not only the ticket availability that's a factor.
And this is not something the organisation can help of course. It's a German event so of course it's in Germany. And the tickets themselves are well priced.
And like I said, I really appreciate them making everything available online.
I do tend to go to the Dutch hacker camps that are being held once every 4 years.
But I didn't mean to complain, just to say it's not only the ticket availability that's a factor.
And this is not something the organisation can help of course. It's a German event so of course it's in Germany. And the tickets themselves are well priced.
And like I said, I really appreciate them making everything available online.
I do tend to go to the Dutch hacker camps that are being held once every 4 years.
Hamburg is also one of the most expensive cities in Germany
We were a group of 5 and there were 3 separate presales for public. We all got tickets and it worked out pretty decently, like last year.
It’s an inventive to volunteer
Other way around: Easier tickets is an incentive for volunteers, as a bit of a payment in kind. It helps people known to volunteer come back, and it encourages them to keep volunteering year after year. You need to work, honestly, ridiculous amounts of hours to get a voucher (15-20 hours), and so it'd not be a very good incentive for average person.
You can absolutely get tickets on public sales by knowing when sales start, refreshing on the dot and doing the captcha as fast as you can. Reducing your latency (ethernet, fresh browser profile without extensions) helps. Add some friends into the mix and you'll get all the tickets you need.
You can absolutely get tickets on public sales by knowing when sales start, refreshing on the dot and doing the captcha as fast as you can. Reducing your latency (ethernet, fresh browser profile without extensions) helps. Add some friends into the mix and you'll get all the tickets you need.
It really isn't.
Tickets are not that hard to get and you are not required to do anything once you have one.
I believe some core orga members (aka The people contracting the venue, getting permissions and renting equipment etc) are guaranteed a ticket but almost everybody else has to buy their own.
The fact that the "hacker space community" gets preferential treatment is very much intended.
Tickets are not that hard to get and you are not required to do anything once you have one.
I believe some core orga members (aka The people contracting the venue, getting permissions and renting equipment etc) are guaranteed a ticket but almost everybody else has to buy their own.
The fact that the "hacker space community" gets preferential treatment is very much intended.
Also curios, since I got 3 trickets for me and friends. It's as always, go somewhere with a good ping, refresh at the specific time. Worked in every sale..
first come first serve principle on three occasions.
refresh the browser a few milliseconds too late, and you will not be able to get a ticket.
The "slide the slider" captcha is an accessibility barrier.
refresh the browser a few milliseconds too late, and you will not be able to get a ticket.
The "slide the slider" captcha is an accessibility barrier.
From their FAQ:
> I’m blind/I have problems with my visions and I can’t navigate your captcha.
> Please contact us.
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2023/infos/tickets.html#faq
> I’m blind/I have problems with my visions and I can’t navigate your captcha.
> Please contact us.
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2023/infos/tickets.html#faq
From what I have heard it used to be quite easy to get tickets in the previous post-pandemic years. Before the pandemic and especially before Leipzig it used to be very hard sometimes.
Now is the first year that seems to me where demand picked up it was not a given to get a ticket. This might have contributed to find the system unfair.
Now is the first year that seems to me where demand picked up it was not a given to get a ticket. This might have contributed to find the system unfair.
There was only one other congress after the pandemic and that was 37c3 (last year). That one indeed did not sell out and was an outliar.
I did go to 36c3 (end of dec 2019, right before pandemic) and the difficulty of buying tickets was the same as this year.
I did go to 36c3 (end of dec 2019, right before pandemic) and the difficulty of buying tickets was the same as this year.
Interesting that it did not sell out. I've heard there was a lot of concern in the community about covid.
I think it was a number of reasons, covid was one of them.
- Congress on years where there's cccamp tends to be planned by people who are understandably more exhausted. 37c3 and cccamp23 were on same year and 37c3 slogan was appropriately "resource extension".
- The venue was back from Leipzig to Hamburg (CCH was doing renovations for a while, so it was moved to CCL for a few years).
- 4 years between events lead to both changes in the orga people, and general concern that the older set of people had been at this point less familiar with running an event of this scale ("can they still do it and make it feel the same?").
- Covid precautions were a divisive topic. Some didn't want precautions, some wanted more precautions. Ultimately some measures were taken, but none were mandatory. We have distributed free tests and masks last year, we'll do it again this year, though mainly aimed at volunteers, so you should bring your own mask and test if you can, see the info page^1 for full recommendations :)
All this lead to people being unsure if 37c3 would be good and not coming. But I think that trust has since been regained, seeing as this year sold out really fast (same as past years).
I think one other issue was that chaos community is getting older and many are having families, which makes going to congress between christmas and NYE difficult. We did, imo, really good outreach since then and now there's more young people joining chaos communities again. Still, coming to congress is costlier for younger people that earn less (175eur for ticket but cheaper options are available on request, plus 400-600eur in hotels, plus trains/flights/visas etc).
(I was/am part of the infection protection team at 37c3 and 38c3 but am speaking on personal capacity.)
^1: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/infos/corona.html
- Congress on years where there's cccamp tends to be planned by people who are understandably more exhausted. 37c3 and cccamp23 were on same year and 37c3 slogan was appropriately "resource extension".
- The venue was back from Leipzig to Hamburg (CCH was doing renovations for a while, so it was moved to CCL for a few years).
- 4 years between events lead to both changes in the orga people, and general concern that the older set of people had been at this point less familiar with running an event of this scale ("can they still do it and make it feel the same?").
- Covid precautions were a divisive topic. Some didn't want precautions, some wanted more precautions. Ultimately some measures were taken, but none were mandatory. We have distributed free tests and masks last year, we'll do it again this year, though mainly aimed at volunteers, so you should bring your own mask and test if you can, see the info page^1 for full recommendations :)
All this lead to people being unsure if 37c3 would be good and not coming. But I think that trust has since been regained, seeing as this year sold out really fast (same as past years).
I think one other issue was that chaos community is getting older and many are having families, which makes going to congress between christmas and NYE difficult. We did, imo, really good outreach since then and now there's more young people joining chaos communities again. Still, coming to congress is costlier for younger people that earn less (175eur for ticket but cheaper options are available on request, plus 400-600eur in hotels, plus trains/flights/visas etc).
(I was/am part of the infection protection team at 37c3 and 38c3 but am speaking on personal capacity.)
^1: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/infos/corona.html
If you are part of a hacker space you could always get tickets through that quite easily. I think it’s great that they are supporting their original core audience like that.
I tried to become member of my local one and they never replied to my application for membership.
Have you checked if they have an open day? Many have a dedicated public day every week where you can just drop by and if you are interested someone will probably happily assist you with becoming a member.
Otherwise joining their IRC and asking there could also be an option.
Otherwise joining their IRC and asking there could also be an option.
Try showing up physically on their open evenings, which most spaces have.
Those hacker spaces only get a limited contingent too, and the hacker space will expect you to help set up their assembly if you get the ticket through them.
> and the hacker space will expect you to help set up their assembly if you get the ticket through them.
I don’t think that it is bad to demand that. The whole event is organized by volunteers and it is massive yet well done. I have been a volunteer too.
I don’t think that it is bad to demand that. The whole event is organized by volunteers and it is massive yet well done. I have been a volunteer too.
I can't help but read your "will expect you to help" part as trying to say something negative. But if they helped you get a ticket, helping them for an hour or two to setup their space feels like the least you could do.
Yes, limited contingent, but that's also expected with a limited number of seats at the congress. I'm part of two hacker spaces and none of them expected any help with setting up their assembly.
I'm a paying, full member of muccc (munich) and ccchh (hamburg), and neither expect you to help with assembly if you get tickets thru them.
Where was that, and when? I got tickets through hackerspaces and was never expected to do anything for them.
The underlying problem is the lack of tickets.
The only way accommodate more attendees and grow would have been to move permanently to a fairground like Leipzig. Unfortunately, there seems to be no willingness to do so. I found the Leipzig events phenomenal and would like to understand the reasons behind this decision, but can only find speculation.. maybe fairgrounds are simply too expensive?
Leipzig’s hotel situation is worse due to having to connect to the fairground outside town. However, due to Leipzigs location at the intersection of two major historic European trade routes (fyi: via imperii and via regia, still has the largest head railway station in Europe), it has much better connections than Hamburg to the rest of Germany and Europe, including Berlin. Also Leipzig (and the fairground itself) have train connections to three airports including BER..
The only way accommodate more attendees and grow would have been to move permanently to a fairground like Leipzig. Unfortunately, there seems to be no willingness to do so. I found the Leipzig events phenomenal and would like to understand the reasons behind this decision, but can only find speculation.. maybe fairgrounds are simply too expensive?
Leipzig’s hotel situation is worse due to having to connect to the fairground outside town. However, due to Leipzigs location at the intersection of two major historic European trade routes (fyi: via imperii and via regia, still has the largest head railway station in Europe), it has much better connections than Hamburg to the rest of Germany and Europe, including Berlin. Also Leipzig (and the fairground itself) have train connections to three airports including BER..
The hotel in Leipzig was easy because the tram went straight to the city center 24/4 .
As far as I know people don't like the huge space and I agree. The magic of the Congress in Berlin or Hamburg wasn't there in Leipzig.
Also the logistics center of the CCC is somewhere around Berlin.
The size of Leipzig also motivated a few not so fitting people to that conference too.
As far as I know people don't like the huge space and I agree. The magic of the Congress in Berlin or Hamburg wasn't there in Leipzig.
Also the logistics center of the CCC is somewhere around Berlin.
The size of Leipzig also motivated a few not so fitting people to that conference too.
I'm also still searching. If anyone is looking to part with a ticket, feel free to send me an offen. Contact is in my profile
The system was the same as last year.
How was it not fair? While I would prefer limiting the attendence by price and not by come first, get first, I understand their reasoning
But getting a ticket this year was very easy, I got three on two separate occasions.
But getting a ticket this year was very easy, I got three on two separate occasions.
By price? So only the rich kids can go? Sounds really the opposite attitude than what I hear from CCC folks
>To see our schedule, please either enable JavaScript or go here for our NoJS schedule.
Great design. Too often sites force me to temporarily whitelist their JS to get basic info.
Great design. Too often sites force me to temporarily whitelist their JS to get basic info.
This is way better than usual, but still a step down from what could be: just load the NoJS schedule with the initial page load and then replace it with your React app or whatever it is if JS is enabled. You can have the same banner at the top letting people know there's more functionality with JS. The only downside is more info over the wire, but it's not that much more, especially as a fraction of the already-slow load times for the JavaScript version.
I'm guessing they, like most websites, try to cater to the most common type of visitor of their website. Most of which has JavaScript enabled, even though I'm sure the percentage of visitors with JS enabled is much much lower than on other websites.
Right, but what they actually did strikes me as a slightly weird halfway measure for supporting the NoJS use case. Optimizing away the NoJS page does not gain any significant amount of speed for the average-case visitor, but it does communicate to the NoJS user that while they're at least a citizen (an improvement over most of the web to be sure!) they're still a second-class citizen.
Again, this is much better than nothing. I'm just pointing out that this design pattern isn't as good as it could be, and if someone reading this wants to implement full support for the NoJS users they can do so by just making the NoJS landing page be the default and replacing it with the interactive app's content root.
Again, this is much better than nothing. I'm just pointing out that this design pattern isn't as good as it could be, and if someone reading this wants to implement full support for the NoJS users they can do so by just making the NoJS landing page be the default and replacing it with the interactive app's content root.
Keep meaning to go to this. What a great thing, the talks are often wonderful!
Then get your calendar entries for 39c3 and subscribe to the relevant information channels to be notified of when those details have been worked out.
Still bummed that the CFP was only 10 days this year, and I totally missed it.
38 years of advocacy for more degrowth and regulations in Europe.
ain't that the damn truth! I was at 37C3 and they had these knucklehead presenters advocating to essentially pass legislation to have people take more public transport like buses and they were proposing this as a worldwide solution while also criticizing companies like Tesla that they are just "green washing".
I had to be the first to line up to a mic to give them a piece of my mind. I asked them have they even been to the US(many Europeans just cannot internalize the true scale of the country)
Also asked what are they going to do when the populations starts to lash out against these forced proposals and turn to the far side of the other aisle in response. They didn't seem convinced and got applause for their response.
Well given that a year has passed and the political shockwaves we have seen all around the world, I had the last laugh (unfortunately).
I also realized how much of a bubble these 'enlightened hackers' are in. They are so convinced of their intelligence that they just totally reject what the populations of the world are really thinking. It was really an eye opening moment for me as I have been a fan of CCC for decades since I was a little kid.
I had to be the first to line up to a mic to give them a piece of my mind. I asked them have they even been to the US(many Europeans just cannot internalize the true scale of the country)
Also asked what are they going to do when the populations starts to lash out against these forced proposals and turn to the far side of the other aisle in response. They didn't seem convinced and got applause for their response.
Well given that a year has passed and the political shockwaves we have seen all around the world, I had the last laugh (unfortunately).
I also realized how much of a bubble these 'enlightened hackers' are in. They are so convinced of their intelligence that they just totally reject what the populations of the world are really thinking. It was really an eye opening moment for me as I have been a fan of CCC for decades since I was a little kid.
No need to sell it to me, I'm already sold!
Your snark is a bit unfair. But I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are. I guess it shows the power differential between US vs Europe/Germany and also the difference between disrupting American and risk-averse European culture? Super smart people in the Bay Area found startups to get rich (and invent the future). Super smart people in Germany can only go into academia and research how to decolonize digital activism.
Maybe it is a valid position to ask where the money for "get rich" comes from and if society would be different if it wasn't all about that money trickling upwards? Have you been to schools or nursing homes lately, having to let dear relatives go there?
Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance of leaving until you reach retirement age?
The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.
I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.
There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes.
In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag.
In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators...
Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too.
On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag.
In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators...
Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too.
On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism.
I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe.
Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism).
In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe.
Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism).
In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
> Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society
No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution.
Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
The definition of socialism does not change and has not changed, and it's not "social democracy".
Many European political parties that have "socialist" in their names are historically socialist but have all but abandonned that ideology in favour of social democracy (i.e they have moved right) because, as we know, socialism was tried and it failed so there has been a lot of soul-searching on the left since the fall of the USSR and al.
That does not mean that there aren't socialists anymore, including in major parties.
Many European political parties that have "socialist" in their names are historically socialist but have all but abandonned that ideology in favour of social democracy (i.e they have moved right) because, as we know, socialism was tried and it failed so there has been a lot of soul-searching on the left since the fall of the USSR and al.
That does not mean that there aren't socialists anymore, including in major parties.
For the more central block parties, this is correct. But for many ultra-left and ultra-right parties, this is not necessarily true. There are true Marxist or Stalinist blocks in many of the ultra-left. There are straight-up fascists in the right wing "national socialist" parties.
ultra-right parties may have "socialist" in their name, but they are typically not in a sense connected to Marx&Hegel. Example: the "National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (Hitler's NSDAP) was not marxist.
Yes, and I never said so. But the post I replied to implied that socialist=social democratic.
And neither the marxist/communists in the far-left parties (and sometimes the whole party) nor the fascists in the far-right parties are social democratic.
(Of course there is no such thing as a "social democracy", in the sense that the government structure is modified from a "non-social" democracy. But there can be democrats who push for a socially oriented governance. For example: Let's have affordable healthcare. Yes, that means that it cost more for rich people..
Democrats here means "people who want to take part in a democracy". not the US party. Not that they are liberal in the European sense either.) )
(Of course there is no such thing as a "social democracy", in the sense that the government structure is modified from a "non-social" democracy. But there can be democrats who push for a socially oriented governance. For example: Let's have affordable healthcare. Yes, that means that it cost more for rich people..
Democrats here means "people who want to take part in a democracy". not the US party. Not that they are liberal in the European sense either.) )
what is ultra-left?
> Socialism in Europe is social democracy.
It’s a mix that includes social democracy and democratic socialism, as well as things to the right of the former (Britain’s Labour is still nominally socialist) and left of the latter.
It’s a mix that includes social democracy and democratic socialism, as well as things to the right of the former (Britain’s Labour is still nominally socialist) and left of the latter.
The SPD in Germany claims the following:
https://www.spd.de/programm/grundsatzprogramm
---
Demokratischer Sozialismus
Unsere Geschichte ist geprägt von der Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus, einer Gesellschaft der Freien und Gleichen, in der unsere Grundwerte verwirklicht sind. Sie verlangt eine Ordnung von Wirtschaft, Staat und Gesellschaft, in der die bürgerlichen, politischen, sozialen und wirtschaftlichen Grundrechte für alle Menschen garantiert sind, alle Menschen ein Leben ohne Ausbeutung, Unterdrückung und Gewalt, also in sozialer und menschlicher Sicherheit führen können.
Das Ende des Staatssozialismus sowjetischer Prägung hat die Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus nicht widerlegt, sondern die Orientierung der Sozialdemokratie an Grundwerten eindrucksvoll bestätigt. Der demokratische Sozialismus bleibt für uns die Vision einer freien, gerechten und solidarischen Gesellschaft, deren Verwirklichung für uns einedauernde Aufgabe ist. Das Prinzip unseres Handelns ist die soziale Demokratie.
---
https://www.spd.de/programm/grundsatzprogramm
---
Demokratischer Sozialismus
Unsere Geschichte ist geprägt von der Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus, einer Gesellschaft der Freien und Gleichen, in der unsere Grundwerte verwirklicht sind. Sie verlangt eine Ordnung von Wirtschaft, Staat und Gesellschaft, in der die bürgerlichen, politischen, sozialen und wirtschaftlichen Grundrechte für alle Menschen garantiert sind, alle Menschen ein Leben ohne Ausbeutung, Unterdrückung und Gewalt, also in sozialer und menschlicher Sicherheit führen können.
Das Ende des Staatssozialismus sowjetischer Prägung hat die Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus nicht widerlegt, sondern die Orientierung der Sozialdemokratie an Grundwerten eindrucksvoll bestätigt. Der demokratische Sozialismus bleibt für uns die Vision einer freien, gerechten und solidarischen Gesellschaft, deren Verwirklichung für uns einedauernde Aufgabe ist. Das Prinzip unseres Handelns ist die soziale Demokratie.
---
> Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism).
The problem with that sentence is that you can say the same sentence with socialism/communism/capitalism in any order and you would find people who would sign it. And to some degree, maybe all would be right.
The problem with that sentence is that you can say the same sentence with socialism/communism/capitalism in any order and you would find people who would sign it. And to some degree, maybe all would be right.
For the US reader:
> 39 MPs in the Bundestag
Out of currently 733 MPs with a parliament with "proportional representation", where the number of seats is proportional to the number of votes (Germany-wide, not local). Die Linke thus has 5.3% seats in the Bundestag. Thus this is not "a lot of votes" in relation to the voting population.
> "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist)
Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD.
> 39 MPs in the Bundestag
Out of currently 733 MPs with a parliament with "proportional representation", where the number of seats is proportional to the number of votes (Germany-wide, not local). Die Linke thus has 5.3% seats in the Bundestag. Thus this is not "a lot of votes" in relation to the voting population.
> "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist)
Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD.
I don't think this gives an accurate picture. Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics. And it's not clear what the next election will bring.
> Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD. Well, many/most of their proponents now seem to be fans of an older party which had national socialism in the name, so no surprise.
In reality, the market rules and social net in most of Europe and US are not /that/ different. Both allow private ownership of production, both have market economy.
Yes, the US says it's a free market, but it isn't. It's maybe free-er. Germany has a "social market economy", which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially. Both have a social security equivalent, with Germany better coverage for unemployment, and US better retirement, AFAICT.
> Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD. Well, many/most of their proponents now seem to be fans of an older party which had national socialism in the name, so no surprise.
In reality, the market rules and social net in most of Europe and US are not /that/ different. Both allow private ownership of production, both have market economy.
Yes, the US says it's a free market, but it isn't. It's maybe free-er. Germany has a "social market economy", which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially. Both have a social security equivalent, with Germany better coverage for unemployment, and US better retirement, AFAICT.
> Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics
Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking.
It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member.
Die Linke has not been a member of a coalition in Germany, so far, and it is not expected that this will change.
> which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially
That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking.
It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member.
Die Linke has not been a member of a coalition in Germany, so far, and it is not expected that this will change.
> which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially
That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
> Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking.
Yes, it's shrinking because Sarah exited left, came back in on the right, and now has her own party with blackjack and racists.
> It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member.
Well, my point is that without explanation, 5% sounds like "completely irrelevant" for many people. So I guess we are in agreement. But even if you are familiar with the German system, do you not think that both FDP and Greens had an outsized influence in the just ending coalition compared to the SPD, in relation to their relative voting percentage? And historically, the FDP and CSU have a lot more influence that what would be proportional to their vote share compared to the bigger partners. I am not saying this is bad, I am saying that even a 5% party can have a relatively large impact on politics in the German system.
Die Linke has not been in a coalition on the Bund level, but it certainly was so in the Laender. While Laender are a lot less powerful compared to US states, that's not nothing.
>That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
Implementation detail. An alternative are strong unions. Some US unions are stronger than German unions. Ask the teachers about the "Dritte Weg".
My point is not: US and Germany are the same. My point is: It's a gradual difference. Not a complete systems change.
Yes, it's shrinking because Sarah exited left, came back in on the right, and now has her own party with blackjack and racists.
> It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member.
Well, my point is that without explanation, 5% sounds like "completely irrelevant" for many people. So I guess we are in agreement. But even if you are familiar with the German system, do you not think that both FDP and Greens had an outsized influence in the just ending coalition compared to the SPD, in relation to their relative voting percentage? And historically, the FDP and CSU have a lot more influence that what would be proportional to their vote share compared to the bigger partners. I am not saying this is bad, I am saying that even a 5% party can have a relatively large impact on politics in the German system.
Die Linke has not been in a coalition on the Bund level, but it certainly was so in the Laender. While Laender are a lot less powerful compared to US states, that's not nothing.
>That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
Implementation detail. An alternative are strong unions. Some US unions are stronger than German unions. Ask the teachers about the "Dritte Weg".
My point is not: US and Germany are the same. My point is: It's a gradual difference. Not a complete systems change.
> And historically, the FDP and CSU have a lot more influence that what would be proportional to their vote share compared to the bigger partners.
I don't think the influence is "outsized". Any party with 5% shares AND being in a coalition has much more influence than a party with 5% AND not in a coalition. A party with 4.9% may have very little influence, when not in a coalition and not even represented in the Bundestag. There are steps from very little influence to normal influence. The CSU never had that much special influence, since they were basically the CDU with a different name, but in Bavaria. It appeared larger because it was historically a different party, but basically only as an historic accident. The politics of CDU and CSU are largely the same. The CSU (only in Bavaria) getting more persons into the government may look like "more influence", but is largely the same policy as the CDU (in Germany minus Bavaria).
The FDP has left the current coalition, exactly BECAUSE they thought their influence was too low and they had to agree to too many unwanted compromises.
> My point is: It's a gradual difference. Not a complete systems change.
The currently policy landscape looks very different to me. Ultra-rich billionaires ruling US politics.
I don't think the influence is "outsized". Any party with 5% shares AND being in a coalition has much more influence than a party with 5% AND not in a coalition. A party with 4.9% may have very little influence, when not in a coalition and not even represented in the Bundestag. There are steps from very little influence to normal influence. The CSU never had that much special influence, since they were basically the CDU with a different name, but in Bavaria. It appeared larger because it was historically a different party, but basically only as an historic accident. The politics of CDU and CSU are largely the same. The CSU (only in Bavaria) getting more persons into the government may look like "more influence", but is largely the same policy as the CDU (in Germany minus Bavaria).
The FDP has left the current coalition, exactly BECAUSE they thought their influence was too low and they had to agree to too many unwanted compromises.
> My point is: It's a gradual difference. Not a complete systems change.
The currently policy landscape looks very different to me. Ultra-rich billionaires ruling US politics.
FDP didn't leave, they only planned to do so, but could not, because they have been kicked out of the coalition before.
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I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.
Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.
There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?
I'm not sure if the ones researching how to decolonize digital cat spaces are the super smart ones.
> I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are.
Why is this suprising? The hacker culture is rooted in anti-establishment philosophy, spun off from the hippy movement of the 1960s. This is not a regional thing.
It's more than a bit ironic that this site is called "hacker news", yet is hosted by a company that holds opposite ideals. :) The term "hacker" has largely lost its original meaning, most notably from being vilified by mainstream media.
Hack the planet! \m/
Why is this suprising? The hacker culture is rooted in anti-establishment philosophy, spun off from the hippy movement of the 1960s. This is not a regional thing.
It's more than a bit ironic that this site is called "hacker news", yet is hosted by a company that holds opposite ideals. :) The term "hacker" has largely lost its original meaning, most notably from being vilified by mainstream media.
Hack the planet! \m/
We come to these conferences to "see where the puck is moving to" not to hear someone's fantasy tales. So far this has been true in the technical tracks. How many times have there been a talk at CCC that was the unveiling of new ways of thinking in tech? Too many to count.
CCC also has a strong history of debuting talks in the social track that really moved the needle in the 2010s. Think about the Wikileaks talks or Snowden or how about the Snowden Angels?
Recently this has not been the case in the social tracks (they got this past years political changes extremely wrong) and so the question is where is the conference making a mistake and how to course correct?
CCC also has a strong history of debuting talks in the social track that really moved the needle in the 2010s. Think about the Wikileaks talks or Snowden or how about the Snowden Angels?
Recently this has not been the case in the social tracks (they got this past years political changes extremely wrong) and so the question is where is the conference making a mistake and how to course correct?
It's "wow, what cool things I can do with this new tech" vs "wow, this new tech is pretty dangerous, let me show you" -- it's a very different mindset. In the end, you can be anti-establishment all you want, it's very hard to let go of your culture.
It was a pretty strong dissonance when reading some, let's say, Hunter S. Thompson short story, how "US conventional" some of his view were. Pretty sure it would be the same for any counterculture in any country. A counterculture doesn't actually rebuild its "host" culture from scratch, it just disagrees about a couple of things.
Well said. However, a counter culture can't diverge too far simply because otherwise it will disappear in the fringes of society with only a handful of followers.
A lot of hippies were not vegetarian or accepting of gays, they just wanted to do drugs and rebel against authority.
A lot of hippies were not vegetarian or accepting of gays, they just wanted to do drugs and rebel against authority.
The establishment has changed "a bit", though.
Are you saying that the establishment is anti capitalist?
No, but it's certainly pro "individualism" and hedonism. Anything that can dilute the moral fiber of a nation to make it easier to rule.
You'd have to be delusional to think you're fighting The Man^tm when you stand for immigration and LGBT, at least in western Europe.
You'd have to be delusional to think you're fighting The Man^tm when you stand for immigration and LGBT, at least in western Europe.
Oh yes, I definitely agree, but I think that the CCC are aware of the risks of neoliberalism
Can you elaborate?
CCC has a mix of talks from deeply technical to political/societal, and the latter are heavily left/environmentalist slanted.
Yeah it's pretty activistic in a progressive way but that goes hand in hand with hacker culture. At least in Europe. It's part of the attraction for me. Though I don't go to CCC but I do to other events.
Yeah but thats a good thing :)
No it is not. It leads to blind spots and a poor understanding of whats really happening in the world when you are presenting niche ideas as if they are the future thats just around the corner. CCC really needs to vet these speakers better or else just give up and invite anyone to present nonsense.
I love watching CCC every years though I rarely catch it live. Since we have a couple of days to wait for this year's talk, I'll ask. Does it bother anyone else that some talks are in German, or does it bother anyone else that they find themselves bothered that the talks are in German?
I love all languages great and small, natural and formal and so I'm conflicted on subjects like this. I find young German speakers to be generally both good at English and pragmatic about choice of language and I'm glad to see that they haven't ceded the ground entirely.
On the other hand you might consider a language as a network whose utility grows with number of nodes. Or you believe in the inevitability of Gresham's Law driving out good currency with bad. I have sympathy for this point, and in an emergency in a mixed nationality group would certainly shout "fire" in English first.
As an example I'll be interested to watch this one about data protection for age verification: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/talk/S... but feel it would be a shame if the reach was limited by the choice of language. AFAIR they don't do multilingual restreams (automated or otherwise) like some other online events.
(Übrigens kann ich doch Deutsch, trotzdem mein Standpunkt bleibt.)
I love all languages great and small, natural and formal and so I'm conflicted on subjects like this. I find young German speakers to be generally both good at English and pragmatic about choice of language and I'm glad to see that they haven't ceded the ground entirely.
On the other hand you might consider a language as a network whose utility grows with number of nodes. Or you believe in the inevitability of Gresham's Law driving out good currency with bad. I have sympathy for this point, and in an emergency in a mixed nationality group would certainly shout "fire" in English first.
As an example I'll be interested to watch this one about data protection for age verification: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/talk/S... but feel it would be a shame if the reach was limited by the choice of language. AFAIR they don't do multilingual restreams (automated or otherwise) like some other online events.
(Übrigens kann ich doch Deutsch, trotzdem mein Standpunkt bleibt.)
I live in Hamburg/Germany, where the CCC is hosted. It would feel strange to go to a German hacker congress in a German city and people would expect that everything is in English, first. It's organized by volunteers from various CCC groups from all over Germany and not by a commercial congress provider. The result may look like a "professional" congress, but that's the result by countless hours of volunteers enabling it. Generally there is much more to the congress, then the talks you can see online. It's a large gathering (> 14k participants with >2500k volunteer organizers) of people from all kinds of German grassroots hacker domains... with a lot of groups meeting there and presenting themselves. The Hamburg congress center, where it takes place, is not the largest location possible, but it currently seems to be the best mix of a congress center in the middle of a large German city with lots of rooms and space for all the groups.
Having CCC talks translated to and from English/... is fine, as it's actually done.
https://events.ccc.de/en/2024/11/26/call-for-interpreters-tr...
says:
> We interpret ALL talks in the three main halls and the two community stages live and in real-time. German talks are interpreted into English, and vice versa. Our work is transmitted live in the lecture halls, streamed to the Internet, and recordings are published on CCC sites and YouTube. We have another channel where we interpret into more languages, this is transmitted and published in the same way.
Having CCC talks translated to and from English/... is fine, as it's actually done.
https://events.ccc.de/en/2024/11/26/call-for-interpreters-tr...
says:
> We interpret ALL talks in the three main halls and the two community stages live and in real-time. German talks are interpreted into English, and vice versa. Our work is transmitted live in the lecture halls, streamed to the Internet, and recordings are published on CCC sites and YouTube. We have another channel where we interpret into more languages, this is transmitted and published in the same way.
> AFAIR they don't do multilingual restreams (automated or otherwise) like some other online events.
They do. There's a team of interpreters at CCC who translate most talks between English and German, and to some other languages. As with most things CCC, it's all volunteer-driven and done on a best-effort basis, but it's there.
When interpretation is available, I prefer talks that are given in whichever language the presenter is most comfortable in. Presenting in front of a large audience is stressful enough as it is, so IMO it makes a ton of sense _not_ to worry about doing that in a second/third language, and delegating that part of the presentation to someone else instead.
They do. There's a team of interpreters at CCC who translate most talks between English and German, and to some other languages. As with most things CCC, it's all volunteer-driven and done on a best-effort basis, but it's there.
When interpretation is available, I prefer talks that are given in whichever language the presenter is most comfortable in. Presenting in front of a large audience is stressful enough as it is, so IMO it makes a ton of sense _not_ to worry about doing that in a second/third language, and delegating that part of the presentation to someone else instead.
I think it's great. I've good passable German, not enough to really follow the details of a fast-paced, complicated talk, so I'm practically shut off from German media (at this level, anyway). But still, diversity is good, and the American-Anglification of all things cultural and linguistical is not necessarily a net positive.
As in, I'm aware there's good points to it, but it's not an entirely clear picture, and some alternative things existing is probably good. How many 12-year old Germans who dislike English for one reason or another found CCC and had major positive changes occur in their lives, ya know.
As in, I'm aware there's good points to it, but it's not an entirely clear picture, and some alternative things existing is probably good. How many 12-year old Germans who dislike English for one reason or another found CCC and had major positive changes occur in their lives, ya know.
Some thoughts are too complex for English. Three genders means they are always one step ahead of the French. Shunning Latin root words means you can be more efficient.
German persists for good reasons.
German persists for good reasons.
Can you give an example of a thought that cannot be expressed in English? That sounds like quite the claim without anything backing it up. I speak fluent German for what it's worth.
the only i can think of is sentence with comatas. In german you can have as many „hauptsätze“ in one sentence as long they are separated by a comma. for example what thomas berndhard does is crazy. its one sentence per page. i think in german you can be more precise in one sentence. but that will be a hell of a sentence.
Can't you just use a semicolon to do the same in English? And even if not, just because an idea is split over several sentences doesn't mean you can't communicate it. That's what paragraphs are for.
You can, and probably should. Texts like Kant are borderline incomprehensible even to native Germans and seem to only serve the author's need for displaying their intelligence. The ideas they are conveying are not that complex. Relativistic quantum theory or string theory can be expressed in English (plus math, while it's not like math wouldn't be needed in German) just fine, so I really don't understand where these supposed limitations of English are.
It's not that English can't express some things at all, but that there are words in German that aren't neatly translated to a English word. Schadenfreude is one German word that's been brought over by a certain writer. It's the joy of seeing someone else's misfortune. That's six-words to express what German can do in one, and for a poet or a wordsmith, that just won't do. If you're dubbing a German TV show, how're you going to fit those six words when the a character yells that one word. Smush it in and hope for the best? So it's still translatable into English, it's just clumsy. As are all translations, really. So German isn't special in that regard, plenty of languages share that quality. And no, the Inuit don not have 37 words for snow.
Torschlusspanik is the fear that time is running out for eg a career change. Weltschmerz is a deep melancholic sadness about the state of the world or life. Hopefully someone who actually speaks German can give greater nuance to those definitions and maybe some other examples.
Torschlusspanik is the fear that time is running out for eg a career change. Weltschmerz is a deep melancholic sadness about the state of the world or life. Hopefully someone who actually speaks German can give greater nuance to those definitions and maybe some other examples.
I think english has the blueprint to do the same. Worldpain
damagejoyness
careerangst
etc
In german there are those wordwords but those are mostly already there and germans are not using this feature regularly to make up new words to describe things. But yes can be fun if one is doing it. The Fun of doing it ->i have fundoing
as someone pointed out, there are words that describe certain things way better in english then in german. anxiety and hypocrite is one of those that pop in my mind. There are translation for those but they arent used in the german day to day vocabulary
In german there are those wordwords but those are mostly already there and germans are not using this feature regularly to make up new words to describe things. But yes can be fun if one is doing it. The Fun of doing it ->i have fundoing
as someone pointed out, there are words that describe certain things way better in english then in german. anxiety and hypocrite is one of those that pop in my mind. There are translation for those but they arent used in the german day to day vocabulary
Actually, Schadenfreude can be neatly translated into a single English word: schadenfreude. English just adopts words that it lacks and (from a German perspective) it's not really special in that regard: We, too, have adopted words, like photography (spelled Fotographie in German) or folklore (original spelling retained) from English.
That's not the argument that was made in the original post that I replied to. You explained those words in english just fine.
yeah i am with you. Sometimes they overdoe it for no reason. I also prefer english to learn sth. Only because it is more straightforward and simpler to communicate. I love it
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For what it's worth, I only have an example for the other way around:
Accuracy vs precision. It's "Genauigkeit". But there is a subtle difference in meaning in English that is lost in German without additional explanation.
you can translate many english „complicated“ words one to one in german because german has a anglo saxon in it. for example
accuracy is akkurat
precission is prezision
hypocrite is hypokrit
etc
german has a crazy big vocabulary but most words arent used and in generell the language is simplified in everyday use. for example everyone has angst but noone has bange anymore. btw good word for anxious in german.
i once also had the impression that many nuances are lost in translation but then i had to realize germans are not using all the words of the vocabulary.
german has a crazy big vocabulary but most words arent used and in generell the language is simplified in everyday use. for example everyone has angst but noone has bange anymore. btw good word for anxious in german.
i once also had the impression that many nuances are lost in translation but then i had to realize germans are not using all the words of the vocabulary.
We have akkurat, which is only an adjective, there is not really a Noun version. But in any case, we would not give it the same meaning shift as you have in English, at least how it's used in physics.
Learning German is hard in the beginning, because of the more challenging grammar and "Donaudampfschifffahrtskapitaensmuetzenfabrikantengattin" but then becomes easier, as there a lot less word plays and figures of speech. It's quite regular. English is easy to get into, but to master it, you have to know them all. And the random pronunciation, of course.
Ja, Bange is uncommon. Really only used in "Da wird mir Angst und Bange!". and "Bange machen". It is still amazing to me that "Giving up the ghost" is a figure of speech in both English and German.
Learning German is hard in the beginning, because of the more challenging grammar and "Donaudampfschifffahrtskapitaensmuetzenfabrikantengattin" but then becomes easier, as there a lot less word plays and figures of speech. It's quite regular. English is easy to get into, but to master it, you have to know them all. And the random pronunciation, of course.
Ja, Bange is uncommon. Really only used in "Da wird mir Angst und Bange!". and "Bange machen". It is still amazing to me that "Giving up the ghost" is a figure of speech in both English and German.
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> Some thoughts are too complex for English.
English just adopts all the good German words. Every time I, a native German speaker, have struggled to express something in English it was either because my personal vocabulary was lacking or because of societal differences, never because English is somehow inferior.
English just adopts all the good German words. Every time I, a native German speaker, have struggled to express something in English it was either because my personal vocabulary was lacking or because of societal differences, never because English is somehow inferior.
And German has adopted all the good English words.
Like Handy (cell phone), Beamer (projector), and body bag (fanny bag).
Oh wait....
Like Handy (cell phone), Beamer (projector), and body bag (fanny bag).
Oh wait....
Bodybag is more like a messenger bag.
I've never heard a fanny pack called a body bag in German. It's a Bauchtasche in my family.
Might have been a regional thing. But I think there was an ad on tv... Didn't live long, was too embarrassing :)
Of course Handy is Schwaebisch: Ai handy kai Schnurr?
Of course Handy is Schwaebisch: Ai handy kai Schnurr?
This is satire?
As a native German speaker living in the US, I have mixed feelings:
- Talks in German feel slightly less, hmm, professional? Maybe it's the field I grow up in (physics). Like, ok, in your studies you speak German, but when you grow up and go to big-boy conferences, it's English. The Congress should be big-boy league.
- Also, realistically, many technical terms are English, so the a German talk might have to make hard choices. CPU, not "zentrale Recheneinheit"
- At the same time, I like that it lowers the barriers for entry. Speakers and visitors who are not fluent in English can participate.
- Personally, though, I prefer a good fluent German presentation from a cringy English one. As a German native speaker, typical German mistakes in English irritate me more than others, I think, so I found some talks given in English hard to follow. Pet peeve: Technology. I think that's a better Shibboleth than Flash-Thunder-Welcome.
- Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon, and important, and as English is the current lingua franca (hah), I think they should encourage English presentations, or at least English slides. (Because they provide translated audio in the recordings!)
- Lastly, I can only encourage everyone to learn more languages, at a young age. I kick myself I didn't. But even in languages which are relatively close, like English and German (compared to, say, Japanese), I found that one language has concepts the other one doesn't, and that changes how you think about things. For example, English has accuracy and precision, with, at least in physics, different meanings. In German, it's both "Genauigkeit".
(Edited: Formatting)
- Talks in German feel slightly less, hmm, professional? Maybe it's the field I grow up in (physics). Like, ok, in your studies you speak German, but when you grow up and go to big-boy conferences, it's English. The Congress should be big-boy league.
- Also, realistically, many technical terms are English, so the a German talk might have to make hard choices. CPU, not "zentrale Recheneinheit"
- At the same time, I like that it lowers the barriers for entry. Speakers and visitors who are not fluent in English can participate.
- Personally, though, I prefer a good fluent German presentation from a cringy English one. As a German native speaker, typical German mistakes in English irritate me more than others, I think, so I found some talks given in English hard to follow. Pet peeve: Technology. I think that's a better Shibboleth than Flash-Thunder-Welcome.
- Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon, and important, and as English is the current lingua franca (hah), I think they should encourage English presentations, or at least English slides. (Because they provide translated audio in the recordings!)
- Lastly, I can only encourage everyone to learn more languages, at a young age. I kick myself I didn't. But even in languages which are relatively close, like English and German (compared to, say, Japanese), I found that one language has concepts the other one doesn't, and that changes how you think about things. For example, English has accuracy and precision, with, at least in physics, different meanings. In German, it's both "Genauigkeit".
(Edited: Formatting)
> "Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon"
Actually it is an open meeting of the German members of the CCC. What you see online is an important part of the congress, but it is only a part of the whole thing. Much more it is a gathering of activists. Thus its from the CCC for CCC. Guests are welcome. Since the talks maybe interesting to a larger audience they are streamed and translated in real-time.
Visit the congress in Hamburg and you are beamed to an alternate reality for four days and nights, meeting all kinds of interesting people in person. That experience is a bit more mind-blowing than seeing translated talks online. ;-) People from outside Germany are visiting the congress.
Actually it is an open meeting of the German members of the CCC. What you see online is an important part of the congress, but it is only a part of the whole thing. Much more it is a gathering of activists. Thus its from the CCC for CCC. Guests are welcome. Since the talks maybe interesting to a larger audience they are streamed and translated in real-time.
Visit the congress in Hamburg and you are beamed to an alternate reality for four days and nights, meeting all kinds of interesting people in person. That experience is a bit more mind-blowing than seeing translated talks online. ;-) People from outside Germany are visiting the congress.
Coming to my first congress (36c3) was special in this regard: Congress was all about talks for me before, but I only went to 2 talks. Last year I went to none. This year I plan to go to none too.
Congress is a gathering ground for likeminded people from all sorts of interests. Talks can be watched at home (except for ones that are not recorded at the request of the talk-givers), but being in the room with likeminded people, talking with them, learning from them is IMO irreplaceable.
Congress is a gathering ground for likeminded people from all sorts of interests. Talks can be watched at home (except for ones that are not recorded at the request of the talk-givers), but being in the room with likeminded people, talking with them, learning from them is IMO irreplaceable.
>> "Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon"
>People from outside Germany are visiting the congress.
My point exactly! International people want to take part, best in-person, and they are more able to take part if as much as possible is available in the common-denominator language. I applaud CCC for all the effort they put in to make it such an awesome and accessible event! Maybe they do this already: I'd ask all presenters to prepare slides in English, either as primary, or as a backup. So that the English stream could show the English slides. Hey, I'd even volunteer to help translate!
I may be too used to physics conferences. The German physics society (btw the largest physicists society in the world) has a yearly conference (well, multiple, split by topic), and they tend to be attended by many non-Germans. So many of the talks are in English, especially the main ones. But there are many many parallel session filled with short talks. Many of these are "my first talk at a conference" type of talks, and are in German. That's perfectly OK. That's part of the role of that conference: Every student submission is accepted. Some are good, most are not great, both from content (because you don't present world changing news in a short talk in a parallel session) and style (because giving good talks requires experience). That's all OK, and important. And it's important to lower the stress level by not also requiring English. Of course, as a "grown up", you go there to support your students, to chat and meet colleagues, and it's great for that. But I am also a lot at "higher level" conferences, with a more robust vetting of talks or even only invite only talks. The talk quality is much better. They are 100% in English. So in my brain, I connect "talk is in German" with "everybody can give a talk", and "my-first-talk-ever", but not with "guaranteed super high quality talks".
But CCC has to sort out many talks, AFAIU, so "everybody can give a talk" isn't true.
My point exactly! International people want to take part, best in-person, and they are more able to take part if as much as possible is available in the common-denominator language. I applaud CCC for all the effort they put in to make it such an awesome and accessible event! Maybe they do this already: I'd ask all presenters to prepare slides in English, either as primary, or as a backup. So that the English stream could show the English slides. Hey, I'd even volunteer to help translate!
I may be too used to physics conferences. The German physics society (btw the largest physicists society in the world) has a yearly conference (well, multiple, split by topic), and they tend to be attended by many non-Germans. So many of the talks are in English, especially the main ones. But there are many many parallel session filled with short talks. Many of these are "my first talk at a conference" type of talks, and are in German. That's perfectly OK. That's part of the role of that conference: Every student submission is accepted. Some are good, most are not great, both from content (because you don't present world changing news in a short talk in a parallel session) and style (because giving good talks requires experience). That's all OK, and important. And it's important to lower the stress level by not also requiring English. Of course, as a "grown up", you go there to support your students, to chat and meet colleagues, and it's great for that. But I am also a lot at "higher level" conferences, with a more robust vetting of talks or even only invite only talks. The talk quality is much better. They are 100% in English. So in my brain, I connect "talk is in German" with "everybody can give a talk", and "my-first-talk-ever", but not with "guaranteed super high quality talks".
But CCC has to sort out many talks, AFAIU, so "everybody can give a talk" isn't true.
> The Congress should be big-boy league.
I'm not sure how many people actively involved with the community who agrees with this. It's a grassroots movement and I'm fairly sure many (most?) people want it to remain as such.
I'm not sure how many people actively involved with the community who agrees with this. It's a grassroots movement and I'm fairly sure many (most?) people want it to remain as such.
Just because people are good at English doesn't mean their English skills are up to giving a permanently-archived talk to tens of thousands of people at the 1st or 2nd most important hacker con on the planet.
I'm all for giving a presentation in the language you're best at. Let machine translation (or manual translation) pick up the slack, not one person's possibly-mediocre ESL skills.
I also can speak German but I avoid doing so when technical accuracy is paramount, because sometimes, small details really matter.
I'm all for giving a presentation in the language you're best at. Let machine translation (or manual translation) pick up the slack, not one person's possibly-mediocre ESL skills.
I also can speak German but I avoid doing so when technical accuracy is paramount, because sometimes, small details really matter.
I'm a native speaker and I hate how people have been stumbling through their presentations, lacking basic vocabulary, being dragged along by their bullet points. It wasn't even the accent, it was that the language occupied their minds so much that they couldn't think about what they had to say or how they were saying it. Lots of talks felt like watching a ninth grader in front of the classroom.
Now some of these guys weren't amazing presenters in German either, but my point is that they should not have to be. Some people simply are dry explainers and they don't naturally entertain. Nothing wrong with that at all, especially with such nerdy topics. But in those cases, I'd much prefer a lengthy blog article, or maybe a podcast interview with a capable host. Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across.
And with how much is consumed as VOD, I don't think the live talk brings a lot to the table anymore. There could be live Q&A sessions for those who read article or heard the podcast interview.
(I'd argue the same for an academic context by the way - anything above seminar size is either a celebration or a sermon, but not a discussion.)
My best experience at CCC was to literally stumble over bunnie on the side of a hallway where he was sitting against the wall, introducing his own ARM laptop to a dozen of people or two.
And don't tell me this doesn't scale - he has also gotten his message across in ways that scale. But there was finally a natural way of asking questions in a back and forth manner that wasn't in front of a 500 people audience.
Now some of these guys weren't amazing presenters in German either, but my point is that they should not have to be. Some people simply are dry explainers and they don't naturally entertain. Nothing wrong with that at all, especially with such nerdy topics. But in those cases, I'd much prefer a lengthy blog article, or maybe a podcast interview with a capable host. Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across.
And with how much is consumed as VOD, I don't think the live talk brings a lot to the table anymore. There could be live Q&A sessions for those who read article or heard the podcast interview.
(I'd argue the same for an academic context by the way - anything above seminar size is either a celebration or a sermon, but not a discussion.)
My best experience at CCC was to literally stumble over bunnie on the side of a hallway where he was sitting against the wall, introducing his own ARM laptop to a dozen of people or two.
And don't tell me this doesn't scale - he has also gotten his message across in ways that scale. But there was finally a natural way of asking questions in a back and forth manner that wasn't in front of a 500 people audience.
>Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across.
Hmm, maybe this is actually a problem the community can address. For our conferences, people who are new to giving talks normally have a practice run or two at their universities with local people. Then they get feedback how to improve the talk. It doesn't work wonders, but it does help quite a bit. Not only does the feedback help improve the slides, the style of presentation, it also builds confidence.
Maybe CCC/somebody could organize optional "training sessions" where people can give test-runs. I'd volunteer to listen and give feedback. Or maybe a tutorial: "How to give a good congress talk"
Hmm, maybe this is actually a problem the community can address. For our conferences, people who are new to giving talks normally have a practice run or two at their universities with local people. Then they get feedback how to improve the talk. It doesn't work wonders, but it does help quite a bit. Not only does the feedback help improve the slides, the style of presentation, it also builds confidence.
Maybe CCC/somebody could organize optional "training sessions" where people can give test-runs. I'd volunteer to listen and give feedback. Or maybe a tutorial: "How to give a good congress talk"
These sessions would help few imo. It'd eat into people's congress time (few arrive before the event due to christmas), making it less appealing. Many also prepare their slides and talk last minute. Not a whole lot that can be done there.
Yeah, I meant this to be an online thing a week or two in advance. Doesn't help against last minute slides, but from my experience, the people doing presentations for the first time, don't prepare them so late.
> Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across.
The speakers are not selected by the CCC; they have to apply with a synopsis of their talk.
The speakers are not selected by the CCC; they have to apply with a synopsis of their talk.
And then some of the talks they are selected.
This is the conference equivalent of "this meeting could have been an email" - "this talk could have been a blog post".
Perhaps you could do us all the service of making a blog post for each of the CCC talks this year? :D
Perhaps you could do us all the service of making a blog post for each of the CCC talks this year? :D
Sounds like the job for a LLM
It is a German conference. It was started by Germans. It is organized first and foremost by Germans. It happens in Germany.
I find it arrogant to think that presenters should speak a language other than German.
I find it arrogant to think that presenters should speak a language other than German.
Have you been to a German university? Plenty of technical subjects will be taught in English even if the speaker and audience are German.
There surely us a kind of arrogance that demands Germans speak English, but I don't see anyone in this thread expressing that.
(I won't even begin to talk about the variety of dialects and identities contained within the modern German state, except to say that there is plenty of arrogance to be found there for those who seek it.)
There surely us a kind of arrogance that demands Germans speak English, but I don't see anyone in this thread expressing that.
(I won't even begin to talk about the variety of dialects and identities contained within the modern German state, except to say that there is plenty of arrogance to be found there for those who seek it.)
On the one hand, communication is easiest if everybody uses the same language. On the other, the dominance of English is one thing that gives US too much cultural power.
I think I'm happy that there is still content in other languages out there.
I think I'm happy that there is still content in other languages out there.
Communication is not good if everybody speaks the same language at a different level. I have worked in English for close to 30 years and been at many international conferences, presented myself a couple of times. Still I feel handicapped in some presentations/discussions that are dominated by native speakers not using offshore English.
Hmm, not sure, I'm non-native English speaker as well. I have a lot more problems understanding/being understood by non-native English speakers from a different language background than I or they have with a native (American) English speaker. Or do you mean America with offshore?
Pronunciation is only one problem: Personally I find some British and most French natives harder to understand.
But native speakers from any continent can make me feel lost if they start to use a lot of idioms and slang expressions. My boss is an American who has lived abroad for a long time. I have usually no problems to understand what he means. In one phase I noticed him using an increasing amount of idioms I could not understand. When mentioning it to him he said he had had many telcos with US partners recently and that had probably inspired him to revive all kind of colorful idioms.
But native speakers from any continent can make me feel lost if they start to use a lot of idioms and slang expressions. My boss is an American who has lived abroad for a long time. I have usually no problems to understand what he means. In one phase I noticed him using an increasing amount of idioms I could not understand. When mentioning it to him he said he had had many telcos with US partners recently and that had probably inspired him to revive all kind of colorful idioms.
Offshore English is a concept to make the language more understandable to non-native speakers. Avoid rare words and idioms. Avoid everything that wouldn't be taught in foreign schools or common in your field. You won't get a Nobel prize in literature using it, but international colleagues will thank you.
What you say matches my experience. I grew up speaking "local" English, but now my day-to-day language is "international" English. I find it funny when people compliment me on my clear and simple English, because when I talk to my family it's anything but.
In my job I deal with tons of non-native speakers, and in some cases I'll end up "translating" between two speakers who can't understand each other, even though it's all nominally English. This is especially the case when they're from different parts of the world and accent and native language strongly influence their speech.
In my job I deal with tons of non-native speakers, and in some cases I'll end up "translating" between two speakers who can't understand each other, even though it's all nominally English. This is especially the case when they're from different parts of the world and accent and native language strongly influence their speech.
> On the other, the dominance of English is one thing that gives US too much cultural power.
I think you got the causation wrong; the dominance of English is due to the US having cultural power, not the other way around.
If this were true, you'd see Ireland, Canada and Australia also having significant cultural power, and this just isn't the case.
I think you got the causation wrong; the dominance of English is due to the US having cultural power, not the other way around.
If this were true, you'd see Ireland, Canada and Australia also having significant cultural power, and this just isn't the case.
I think the dominance of English comes from the United Kingdom's significant cultural power in the nineteenth century (cf. French's status as the language of diplomacy deriving from France's cultural power in the eighteenth century). The US is just riding on Britain's (England's, really) cultural coattails.
(The US's economic dominance is, at present, unrivalled, however.)
(The US's economic dominance is, at present, unrivalled, however.)
i dont know anyone who speaks English because of that. all my friends and all people i met do it because US culture stuff like tv music articles. also here in europe its because of USA. Noone speaks british english here. With english we mean US english. also the other reason is work and travell and thats also mostly US english. if britain would speak chinese noone would speak chinese. everyone would speeak us English. Its crazy that people still have a britain centric worldview. that ship sailed 100 years ago and then it became the american century.
> Does it bother anyone else that some talks are in German, or does it bother anyone else that they find themselves bothered that the talks are in German?
There’s generally live translation (into English, German, and sometimes French). The translations are also available for download (eg https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3/).
There’s generally live translation (into English, German, and sometimes French). The translations are also available for download (eg https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3/).
They usually do Translation live, so I'd be very surprised if they didn't offer them in the stream as well. They always offer English and I think some talks have been live-transcribed, too, for people with hearing disabilities, but that might be automated by now.
Personally I think it's good you are not forced to present in English. I know enough people who are not comfortable enough with English to present in it. There are also some niche topics that have a focus on Germany. For these sometimes German brings a bit of nuance/local flair that you can't really translate. For these I'm happy that German is available as the original and then the translators will do their best to provide an English second best.
To some degree I find it inevitable that conferences situated in countries that are not native English speaking will have some program points in the local language. As long as they offer help with understanding the content, I don't see an issue with this, regardless of how big/influential they are.
Personally I think it's good you are not forced to present in English. I know enough people who are not comfortable enough with English to present in it. There are also some niche topics that have a focus on Germany. For these sometimes German brings a bit of nuance/local flair that you can't really translate. For these I'm happy that German is available as the original and then the translators will do their best to provide an English second best.
To some degree I find it inevitable that conferences situated in countries that are not native English speaking will have some program points in the local language. As long as they offer help with understanding the content, I don't see an issue with this, regardless of how big/influential they are.
There is a realtime translation team that's available as an audio track in the life streams as. The translation is done be volunteers. The last ~5 years they managed to translate all the German and English slots on the official stages. Some less common language options may be provided later e.g. Spanish, French, Chinese, funni dialects like Plattdeutsch, etc.
Thanks for the info, I don't know how I wasn't aware.
May it serve as a warning, I put myself in mortal danger recently by referring to Plattdeutsch as a dialect (rather than a language). I have no skin in that game but some people feel strongly about it.
I'm general though I'd say that:
> a shprakh iz a dyalekt mit an armey un flot[0]
(Here I've rendered the Yiddish in Latin rather than Hebrew for emphasis.)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
May it serve as a warning, I put myself in mortal danger recently by referring to Plattdeutsch as a dialect (rather than a language). I have no skin in that game but some people feel strongly about it.
I'm general though I'd say that:
> a shprakh iz a dyalekt mit an armey un flot[0]
(Here I've rendered the Yiddish in Latin rather than Hebrew for emphasis.)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
When I was there where was always a group of people sitting in the first row live-translating the talks. That was many years ago so this is probably even better now.
I've been to CCC (and hope to continue doing so again when life ceases to get in the way), and it's never bothered me in the slightest. The Congress is organized by the Chaos Computer Club, founded in Germany and consists primarily of decentralized clubs/associations that themselves are German-speaking. The talks (often) live-dubbed English, and post-talk the talks are translated as well (both the live translation and the post-recording subtitling are done by volunteers, BTW). The majority of congress-goers speak German as a first language, and frankly many of those who don't speak German still attend German talks - thanks to the translators (you can even get a sense of this by watching the talks on the website; there are many instances of English being used for questions and even answers in the Q&A sections of German talks). P
ersonally, I believe the world would be less interesting if everything of interest was in the same language - I think all (major, at least - those with a budget for translators/enough volunteers to translate) conferences should allow the speakers to give their talks in the language they are comfortable in.
Anecdotally, I've never had passable German conversationally, but have studied the language a fair bit, and watching so many German talks with translation (both remotely and in-person) actually passively brought up my understanding of the language that I could understand most of what was being said; to the point that I felt comfortable over the years passively understanding the German language outside of the congress in most situations. Sure, being able to to speak in another language comfortably is ideal, but being able to listen, even just passively, in another language really feels like a superpower.
Anecdotally, I've never had passable German conversationally, but have studied the language a fair bit, and watching so many German talks with translation (both remotely and in-person) actually passively brought up my understanding of the language that I could understand most of what was being said; to the point that I felt comfortable over the years passively understanding the German language outside of the congress in most situations. Sure, being able to to speak in another language comfortably is ideal, but being able to listen, even just passively, in another language really feels like a superpower.
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I have commented about this in the past and got downvoted for it. There is a reason why virtually all international conferences require presentations and talks to be held in English. If this was a German-only event it would be understandable, however as it is written on their website the CCC congress is "the biggest European hacker gathering and has grown into one of the most important conferences on digital transformation."
Another argument put forward is the existence of English dubs for every video. I have found the quality of these dubs varies a lot, since they are run by volunteers and not people experienced in live translation. In some talks there can be segments without any translation, and in one case the translator even "gave up" because the speaker was talking too fast.
Another argument put forward is the existence of English dubs for every video. I have found the quality of these dubs varies a lot, since they are run by volunteers and not people experienced in live translation. In some talks there can be segments without any translation, and in one case the translator even "gave up" because the speaker was talking too fast.
> "the biggest European hacker gathering and has grown into one of the most important conferences on digital transformation."
"biggest European hacker gathering" -> still most participants are from Germany, that's where the Chaos Computer Club is located. The club itself is organized into local groups all over the country (plus some in neighbor countries).
"biggest European hacker gathering" -> still most participants are from Germany, that's where the Chaos Computer Club is located. The club itself is organized into local groups all over the country (plus some in neighbor countries).
It's a balance. Congress aims to be accessible ticket cost-wise to all.
Professional interpreters cost a lot of money, and as such it's done by volunteers. There's little to be done while maintaining the spirit of the event.
Nothing prevents people from redubbing talks either, which may honestly be a good community effort.
Professional interpreters cost a lot of money, and as such it's done by volunteers. There's little to be done while maintaining the spirit of the event.
Nothing prevents people from redubbing talks either, which may honestly be a good community effort.
I just checked; they do in fact upload the live dub audio streams, see this talk from last year which was given in English but this is the German dub: https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12340-37c3_infrastructure_review...
Hi, I'm a long standing CCC interpreter (volunteer of course).
We aim to interpret live 100% of the talks in German (* we do not always interpret things that aren't strictly speaking talks, like poetry readings or performance art, although we try to make these as accessible as we can). We also interpret various talks into other languages - we have a sizeable team working on French and Spanish interpretation, and depending on volunteer availability, we are keen to be target any spoken language. For this talk you are interested in, I'm very confident it will be interpreted into English.
You can find our work on media.ccc.de both on the streams and recorded talks. If you're attending live we have lower latency audio streams available on-site, check out c3lingo.org.
We aim to interpret live 100% of the talks in German (* we do not always interpret things that aren't strictly speaking talks, like poetry readings or performance art, although we try to make these as accessible as we can). We also interpret various talks into other languages - we have a sizeable team working on French and Spanish interpretation, and depending on volunteer availability, we are keen to be target any spoken language. For this talk you are interested in, I'm very confident it will be interpreted into English.
You can find our work on media.ccc.de both on the streams and recorded talks. If you're attending live we have lower latency audio streams available on-site, check out c3lingo.org.
Thank you, I didn't realize this existed.
I have accessibility needs (screen reader user) that make subtitles less fun to use than they would otherwise be, and I speak no German, so those interpreted recordings would be really great for me.
I assume you don't publish on Youtube? That's how I usually consume CCC content, mostly due to YT's recommendation algorithms and excellent cross-device "continue playback" support.
I have accessibility needs (screen reader user) that make subtitles less fun to use than they would otherwise be, and I speak no German, so those interpreted recordings would be really great for me.
I assume you don't publish on Youtube? That's how I usually consume CCC content, mostly due to YT's recommendation algorithms and excellent cross-device "continue playback" support.
I'm glad we can be of service to you! There used to be a live captioning team writing subtitles but I think that effort stopped. I heard people were looking at AI-based captioning but I have not kept up with the plans for this year.
I know in previous years talks were published on YT, I assume this will still be the case this year. Normally the VOC team does miracles to publish incredibly quickly too, so you should be able to have the recorded talks online same-day.
I know in previous years talks were published on YT, I assume this will still be the case this year. Normally the VOC team does miracles to publish incredibly quickly too, so you should be able to have the recorded talks online same-day.
Until very recently YouTube did not support multiple user-choice audio tracks on a video, so they would have needed to be uploaded separately.
Maybe it will change this year, though!
Maybe it will change this year, though!
anton petrov channnel that i follow recently started offering multiple auto dubbed audio track, which confused me as it would auto select the german dub for me. i dont know german ;-)
That's great to hear and I think it's admirable work you are doing. Thanks for correcting my misconception and making this excellent content more accessible.
Can you add Russian, Turkish and Romani languages too (they are the three largest minority languages in Germany)?
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Banger program once again! WOW!
It will be glorious.
I have quite a few recordings I'd like to watch
I have quite a few recordings I'd like to watch
Which talks are you looking forward to watch?
What about the 0-days trading backroom? Still a thing since now you have more special services agents than anything else... or mafia...
Here is the schedule https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/schedu...
Interesting talks e.g.
"Breaking NATO Radio Encryption"
Interesting talks e.g.
"Breaking NATO Radio Encryption"
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bijant(2)
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It looks like Joscha Bach [0] is continuing his "From Computation to Consciousness" series. I've enjoyed some of his older talks so I'll probably check out this new entry as well.
A few of the science talks related to biology also seem really interesting, although it reminds me of how much I'm lacking in understanding and knowledge of the topic. It looks like there's a big focus on mixing generative AI with biology research, and I don't know enough to disambiguate whether there truly innovative work happening or if this is an attempt to ride the AI hype cycle. Does anyone here have experience and knowledge on the topic to suggest whether the talks are worth checking out?
[0] https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/talk/3...