The Logistics of Road War in the Wasteland(acoup.blog)
acoup.blog
The Logistics of Road War in the Wasteland
https://acoup.blog/2025/05/23/collections-the-logistics-of-road-war-in-the-wasteland/
45 comments
The Great Toyota War is interesting to read about. Libya spent billions and lost ~800 tanks to Chad’s Hiluxes and Land Cruisers. Specifically the Battle of Fada was very lopsided with Chad dominating. If you ‘s/Toyota/drones/g’ you get some similar situations in more current battles.
For the lazy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War
You’re leaving out Chad’s use of French-provided Anti-Tank Guided Missiles.
If you like this sort of analysis, read The Angry Staff Officer.[1] That blog is written by a serving Army officer. He and his buddies analyze Star Wars, Game of Thrones, and even Barbie from the perspective of people who do this as their day job.
[1] https://angrystaffofficer.com/
[1] https://angrystaffofficer.com/
Thanks for that recommendation. Though on a different topic, I found the following post particularly interesting:
"Failure Mechanisms in Democratic Regimes – an Army’s Role"
https://angrystaffofficer.com/2025/03/02/failure-mechanisms-...
I submitted it now for discussion on its own:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44084653
"Failure Mechanisms in Democratic Regimes – an Army’s Role"
https://angrystaffofficer.com/2025/03/02/failure-mechanisms-...
I submitted it now for discussion on its own:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44084653
In 2024 russia Wagner in Africa provided another argument pro rag-tag stationary infantry VS glorious fully loaded war-rig convoys.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/01/world/africa/russia-wagne...
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/29/africa/russian-mercenarie...
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/01/world/africa/russia-wagne...
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/29/africa/russian-mercenarie...
> in the modern Fallout games2 the only vehicles of gameplay import are aircraft. The existence of ground vehicles is implied in dialogue, but we never see them, presumably because they’d be too difficult to implement in the engine.
It's more of a game mechanics issue than technical, there is a lot of rubble, obstacles and destroyed roads, specially the highways. Vehicles also make the world smaller. It might be fun anyway.
It's more of a game mechanics issue than technical, there is a lot of rubble, obstacles and destroyed roads, specially the highways. Vehicles also make the world smaller. It might be fun anyway.
I remember infamously in one of the fallouts there is a tram system- this was implemented in game by giving a npc a hat that was a giant bus, putting the npc underground and having him run along a course with only his head visable above ground. If they made vehicles I hope it would be done in the same way
Love my trucks.Though they are customised weapons of work, and play. Currently on.the road os an 11 gm diesel, extended can long box, rear seats and center console removed, the whole back of the cab is a tool box shelf and storage,the shelf is big enough to lay out and sleep (6')
biggest complaint is the rear window which is too small to crawl through, will get a custom window insert, and roof mounted solar, with under deck batteries, inverter, to run tools, hood will get solar, but it's "fancy" and will need a custom replacement for flex solar pannels, hope to get 1kw on board.Last truck had solar and ran with no alternator for years, till I got rear ended.....bad hit......92 dodge cummins 4x4 extended cab.....took.the hit...saved my lif3.....it's war out there, right
As the article's first comment states, and what was my first criticism after seeing Madd Max years ago: Who's refining the gas?
Let's just call it what it is: The whole premise is stupid, and was the biggest detractor from "suspension of disbelief" while watching the movie.
This is the same stupidity that's causing rural residents to shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to adopt electrification.
There is NO other technology that allows the level of technical autonomy, post-apocalyptic or otherwise, that is afforded by electricity.
People with rural acres could be supporting ALL of their own residential and agricultural energy consumption with onsite electrical generation. Instead, due to culture war side taking, they hobble themselves to be ever dependent on the petro-extraction and refinement industries.
Let's just call it what it is: The whole premise is stupid, and was the biggest detractor from "suspension of disbelief" while watching the movie.
This is the same stupidity that's causing rural residents to shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to adopt electrification.
There is NO other technology that allows the level of technical autonomy, post-apocalyptic or otherwise, that is afforded by electricity.
People with rural acres could be supporting ALL of their own residential and agricultural energy consumption with onsite electrical generation. Instead, due to culture war side taking, they hobble themselves to be ever dependent on the petro-extraction and refinement industries.
In every movie except the first one (where society was starting to collapse, it hadn't fallen yet) the question of "where's the gas" is a major plot device
I'm not going to sit here and argue Beyond Thunderdome is high art or anything, but kind of the whole point of the Mad Max films is not just to comment on resource scarcity and control but to make them the call to action for everything in the story. You're asking "who's making all the gas" because that's exactly what George Miller wants you to be thinking about.
I'm not going to sit here and argue Beyond Thunderdome is high art or anything, but kind of the whole point of the Mad Max films is not just to comment on resource scarcity and control but to make them the call to action for everything in the story. You're asking "who's making all the gas" because that's exactly what George Miller wants you to be thinking about.
Beyond Thunderdome was good in my book, because it expanded on the Mad Max world. Methane from pigs, of course!
I really didn't like Fury Road. It just felt like an over-the-top rehash of the end of Mad Max 2, without meaningfully expanding the world. Everything was far too polished, excessive, and wasteful, for no particular purpose.
I really didn't like Fury Road. It just felt like an over-the-top rehash of the end of Mad Max 2, without meaningfully expanding the world. Everything was far too polished, excessive, and wasteful, for no particular purpose.
The Miocene Arrow is an interesting post apocalyptic novel that takes this problem seriously. In it a neofeudal society is oriented around producing surplus grain and processing it into alcohol for small diesel-powered airplanes, maintained in small numbers at vast expense by an aristocratic class as both symbol and means of enforcing their dominance. Entire hereditary craft guilds for all the support and subskills necessary to keep them running etc. Sort of analogous to warhorses in premodern europe I guess. Solid book, the first one in the series is interesting too but based in a different setting.
> Instead, due to culture war side taking, they hobble themselves to be ever dependent on the petro-extraction and refinement industries.
The majority of the content I see in this space is overwhelmingly supportive of rolling your own grid. The point isn’t to reject electrification as a technology, but to reduce or eliminate reliance upon the electrical grid. A lot of homesteaders operate wood boilers for heat simply because it’s cheaper, but the truck-driving redneck you’re envisioning lost faith in industrial society a long time ago.
The majority of the content I see in this space is overwhelmingly supportive of rolling your own grid. The point isn’t to reject electrification as a technology, but to reduce or eliminate reliance upon the electrical grid. A lot of homesteaders operate wood boilers for heat simply because it’s cheaper, but the truck-driving redneck you’re envisioning lost faith in industrial society a long time ago.
It's a funny position to have lost faith in the industrial society and drive a truck that depends on it heavily for spare parts and daily fuel. I bet they also watch TV a lot.
A horse-drawn buggy would be a consistent (and sustainable) choice, instead of a truck. Preppers and rednecks are quite distinct though.
A horse-drawn buggy would be a consistent (and sustainable) choice, instead of a truck. Preppers and rednecks are quite distinct though.
There don't seem to be any contradictions there. If someone expects industrial society to collapse then as far as the truck is concerned it just means they need to prepare a contingency plan for if/when it stops working. They can still use the truck while spare parts and petrol is available.
The gas was being refined from crude oil in Gas Town. This was explained explicitly in both modern Mad Max movies, but in fairness I haven’t seen the old ones.
The old ones are great, Mel Gibson is a treasure. Watch Apocalypto as well, one of the best action movies ever made
Mel Gibsons acting had treasured moments perhaps.
Mel Gibson the man, not so much
Mel Gibson the man, not so much
Just a heads up that almost certainly in every major Hollywood production of note, there has been a rapist or a racist, or a scumbag heavily involved in the project, either acting, directing, producing, etc
[deleted]
I simply don’t care about the personal lives of artists. Put a spotlight on any of us and the reality is painful
Water world at least had some tanker to explain where all the gasoline were coming from.
Mad Max was a dystopian movie in a dysfunctional state. I don't know how the exaggerated view of it became the franchise.
Mad Max was a dystopian movie in a dysfunctional state. I don't know how the exaggerated view of it became the franchise.
Because it looks cool.
There's a scene in Fury Road where a muscle car type vehicle blows up in such a way that it's propelled high up into the air, and then blows up again in mid-air. The physics to make this possible exist only in Hollywood, but hey, this way you get two pretty explosions.
There's a scene in Fury Road where a muscle car type vehicle blows up in such a way that it's propelled high up into the air, and then blows up again in mid-air. The physics to make this possible exist only in Hollywood, but hey, this way you get two pretty explosions.
I go to the movies for physics-defying aesthetically overwhelming explosions. For all-too-physics bound and far scarier crashes, I drive the Garden State Parkway.
As always truth is stranger than fiction; https://youtu.be/H3NB5_EqYQw
Somewhat atypical truth in that the vehicle launched by anti tank mine was loaded with explosives pre rigged to detonate ..
SVBIED (Suicide Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device)I guess an anti-tank mine would have to be pretty punchy, but holy crap, are we sure that's real footage?
Shits so fun is why
Sure making high quality gasoline is difficult, but making shitty gasoline or fuels that can take the place of gasoline with a bit less power is not some crazy technology. Gasoline engines, if tuned to do so, will run off naptha and ethanol mixtures. And if you are creating it fresh, like from the existence of a place called gas town, it will allow you to use more volatile but higher octane fuels mixed to make decent octane gasoline, it just won't last sitting around for very long. And methanol is fairly easy to produce from heating up nearly any organic matter up in a dry still. Diesel engines will run off nearly any oil that will burn.
I mean sure, fuel refining knowledge isn't super common, but plenty of people still know enough about it and chemistry to less efficiently produce fuels as long as they have a source material, be it an actual oil well or enough organic materials, with some basic tooling. Tooling which we would already know exists by the fact that people are maintaining a fleet of vehicles. And you also have to remember that Max himself was alive and working in world pre-collapse, it isn't a world 10+ generations into an apocalypse, only like 2 maybe bordering on 3 generations of apocalypse with some people still remembering the old world, albeit in a decaying state.
There are hippies that process wood into usable liquid fuels you can find on youtube. If we wanted to be more realistic, they would be driving less, and have a far higher percentage of diesel vehicles because diesel is so much easier to make and the engines are easier to run on even garbage fuels. But Mad Max isn't like 200 years post-apocalypse.
I mean sure, fuel refining knowledge isn't super common, but plenty of people still know enough about it and chemistry to less efficiently produce fuels as long as they have a source material, be it an actual oil well or enough organic materials, with some basic tooling. Tooling which we would already know exists by the fact that people are maintaining a fleet of vehicles. And you also have to remember that Max himself was alive and working in world pre-collapse, it isn't a world 10+ generations into an apocalypse, only like 2 maybe bordering on 3 generations of apocalypse with some people still remembering the old world, albeit in a decaying state.
There are hippies that process wood into usable liquid fuels you can find on youtube. If we wanted to be more realistic, they would be driving less, and have a far higher percentage of diesel vehicles because diesel is so much easier to make and the engines are easier to run on even garbage fuels. But Mad Max isn't like 200 years post-apocalypse.
>Instead, due to culture war side taking, they hobble themselves to be ever dependent on the petro-extraction and refinement industries.
it's a little more complicated than that. check out the map of which states use gas stoves vs electric.
https://www.statista.com/chart/29082/most-common-type-of-sto...
it's a little more complicated than that. check out the map of which states use gas stoves vs electric.
https://www.statista.com/chart/29082/most-common-type-of-sto...
Once again everyone has underestimated the cunning Toyota Prius, especially the new plug-in model, the Prius Prime.
Your gas went bad a year after the hammer fell? The Prius Prime can drive highway speed on its battery, and you can charge that with solar and an inverter.
Need to break camp and make yourself scarce in 5 minutes? Toss some fuel tanks in the back and floor it. The Prius Prime has a 600-mile EPA range on gasoline.
Your gas went bad a year after the hammer fell? The Prius Prime can drive highway speed on its battery, and you can charge that with solar and an inverter.
Need to break camp and make yourself scarce in 5 minutes? Toss some fuel tanks in the back and floor it. The Prius Prime has a 600-mile EPA range on gasoline.
You can't believe they just had a large amount of oil left over from the apocalypse that could sustain a few hundred thousand people? It's just a matter of cartelling it and controlling the supply.
If an apocalypse happened, believe it or not, the few remnants of Earth would have all the world's knowledge via an LLM. How could that be? Wasn't everything destroyed? Nope.
If an apocalypse happened, believe it or not, the few remnants of Earth would have all the world's knowledge via an LLM. How could that be? Wasn't everything destroyed? Nope.
Oil? Sure, but you can't burn raw oil for anything more interesting than pure heating.
Refined gasoline, diesel or even propane? That stuff degrades. After a few years it's useless.
Refined gasoline, diesel or even propane? That stuff degrades. After a few years it's useless.
Refining gasoline isn't special. The Syrian civil war caused the construction of thousands of makeshift oil refineries. It's basically just distillation. You won't have an easier time making batteries and semiconductors from scrap metal.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/04/24/dying-to-keep-war...
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/04/24/dying-to-keep-war...
I find it highly likely that some insane natural event - extreme volcano, solar flare, nuclear accident, plague, large meteorite hitting major city, etc. - will befall man within the next 1000 years. Very very extreme event that has fallout for 20+ years. Would be very interesting to see how humans adapt with all of our tech
> this is a good way to also think about why militaries (of various description) use the vehicles they use, from a logistics standpoint
Militaries often make very stupid decisions. A friend was in Defence Materials figuring out what tanks Australia should buy. The M1 Abrams had a support crew of something like 30 vehicles following it everywhere it went (each tank!) and required a full engine rebuild insanely often, something like every 1000 hours.
They are HORRIFIC for logistics.
Australia bought them.
Militaries often make very stupid decisions. A friend was in Defence Materials figuring out what tanks Australia should buy. The M1 Abrams had a support crew of something like 30 vehicles following it everywhere it went (each tank!) and required a full engine rebuild insanely often, something like every 1000 hours.
They are HORRIFIC for logistics.
Australia bought them.
Is that really the wrong decision for a technologically advanced and industrialized nation like Australia, though? If you can logistically afford to field an M1 Abrams you are going to win against an opponent who can’t field a similar tank, even if they can afford more of them. Additionally I imagine there are other benefits such as integrating with allies who use the same tank.
> integrating with allies who use the same tank.
Ultimately that is the reason they bought them. The Aussie ones will never leave Australia, but can be used for training.
If the big one ever comes, those trained aussies can fly wherever in the world the US has brought a stack a M1s and be good to go.
Ultimately that is the reason they bought them. The Aussie ones will never leave Australia, but can be used for training.
If the big one ever comes, those trained aussies can fly wherever in the world the US has brought a stack a M1s and be good to go.
>The Aussie ones will never leave Australia
Narrator: The Aussie ones are in fact leaving Australia https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/the-australian-m1a1-t...
Narrator: The Aussie ones are in fact leaving Australia https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/the-australian-m1a1-t...
From a different comment in the thread - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War.
I guess they should have known better.
I guess they should have known better.
I am curious what other factors were at play in those battles. It seems like first, Libya had no air support as western allies grounded Libya’s Air Force, second Libya did not have the logistics necessary to deploy their tanks so far from home, and third Libyan morale and training was low.
I think Russia’s war in Ukraine has taught us that’s just not true on the modern battlefield.
But Australia made the buy decision before the war.
But Australia made the buy decision before the war.
> "required a full engine rebuild insanely often, something like every 1000 hours."
If that is true it is delightfully ironic. I have heard that the main reason the M1 has a turbine is that the army saw the dramatic improvement in reliability that turbines brought to their helicopters and said "that, we want that in a tank"
If that is true it is delightfully ironic. I have heard that the main reason the M1 has a turbine is that the army saw the dramatic improvement in reliability that turbines brought to their helicopters and said "that, we want that in a tank"
The chain of dogs from Malazan would be a good one to analyze in desert warfare road war fiction