Danish Ministry Replaces Windows and Microsoft Office with Linux and LibreOffice(heise.de)
heise.de
Danish Ministry Replaces Windows and Microsoft Office with Linux and LibreOffice
https://www.heise.de/en/news/From-Word-and-Excel-to-LibreOffice-Danish-ministry-says-goodbye-to-Microsoft-10438942.html
238 comments
I'm currently working at a large public institution in Norway.
Half the team runs Linux, and the only real constraint is using Edge for SSO. (Firefox works too - you just have to actually log in like it's 2008.)
Honestly, everything else runs smoother than what my Windows-using teammates are dealing with.
Half the team runs Linux, and the only real constraint is using Edge for SSO. (Firefox works too - you just have to actually log in like it's 2008.)
Honestly, everything else runs smoother than what my Windows-using teammates are dealing with.
That is probably just a setting missing from your Firefox profile that allows your company Kerberos realm/domain. If your institution hasn't locked down your Firefox config, you can fix this yourself: https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_...
I suspect nowadays it's more likely a matter of integrating with Microsoft's "identity broker", part of Intune, aka "Company Portal".
You use Intune to log in and register your device against your Microsoft account, and microsoft-identity-broker is a DBus service that hands out tokens that can be passed to login.microsoft.com (either as a cookie or a special header) which identifies you (skipping the username/password login) and allows you to pass the company device test.
I was able to put together a working ad-hoc extension for Firefox to make the DBus call and pass the header, though I've since come across this extension (haven't tried it myself) which looks like it achieves the same thing (with a lot more features, based on the code size?):
https://github.com/siemens/linux-entra-sso
Edge on Linux seems to have this built in, so if you open any page on login.microsoft.com, you'll see it passing some "x-something" header with a token that it receieved from the identity broker (generated on each page load).
You use Intune to log in and register your device against your Microsoft account, and microsoft-identity-broker is a DBus service that hands out tokens that can be passed to login.microsoft.com (either as a cookie or a special header) which identifies you (skipping the username/password login) and allows you to pass the company device test.
I was able to put together a working ad-hoc extension for Firefox to make the DBus call and pass the header, though I've since come across this extension (haven't tried it myself) which looks like it achieves the same thing (with a lot more features, based on the code size?):
https://github.com/siemens/linux-entra-sso
Edge on Linux seems to have this built in, so if you open any page on login.microsoft.com, you'll see it passing some "x-something" header with a token that it receieved from the identity broker (generated on each page load).
How does this work if the conditional access policies require compliance with Microsoft's "security baseline" which involves e.g. checking that the latest Windows updates are installed?
Presumably the Microsoft software running on the Linux machine will report it as non-compliant and prevent you from logging in?
Presumably the Microsoft software running on the Linux machine will report it as non-compliant and prevent you from logging in?
Microsoft Intune is officially available for Linux. This mechanism doesn't involve making a Linux system pretend it's Windows. It's just about making non-Edge browsers able to authenticate as Edge does.
Microsoft is aware that the authentication is coming from a Linux system, so presumably there are different policies involved.
I don't know how these things are administrated, but the Linux Intune software has a notion of "Compliance" that might involve periodically running some program decided by the company. If Intune decides the system is non-compliant, authentication still works, but Microsoft login knows the compliance status, so it might prevent you from accessing certain applications, depending on what the company has configured.
Also in my experience ability to sign in from Linux can be limited to certain groups, so regular Windows users can't just run Linux without some company approval.
Microsoft is aware that the authentication is coming from a Linux system, so presumably there are different policies involved.
I don't know how these things are administrated, but the Linux Intune software has a notion of "Compliance" that might involve periodically running some program decided by the company. If Intune decides the system is non-compliant, authentication still works, but Microsoft login knows the compliance status, so it might prevent you from accessing certain applications, depending on what the company has configured.
Also in my experience ability to sign in from Linux can be limited to certain groups, so regular Windows users can't just run Linux without some company approval.
It’s really not. Edge bundles a number of authentication libraries with the Linux version that enable things like remote passkey support.
What is "remote passkey support"? I am familiar with passkeys (both resident and non-resident). But I haven't heard of remote passkeys yet.
I guess maybe passkeys over some kind of USB/RDP redirection. But searching the internet doesn't yield any useful results. Or maybe something new and proprietary like all those incompatible passkey implementations out there...
Bluetooth binding to your mobile device, which then handles MFA with biometrics.
You can't use KeepassXC + Firefox? Might need to downgrade the KeepassXC browser plugin (because of a bug)
Nope. Not even close to the same functionality here.
I feel reasonably confident that if the focus is on open tooling and sovereignty and not saving money then a shift to Linux can 100% work even at large and complex organizations.
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This sounds really interesting. Are you able to share more about this (even in private) for inclusion in https://eu-os.eu/use-cases ?
>Half the team runs Linux, and the only real constraint is using Edge for SSO. (Firefox works too - you just have to actually log in like it's 2008.)
So everything in the backend is still MS? Office 365, Intune, the full stack? That is the point of the comment you are rerplying to.
The "terminals" dont matter that much if the goal is to get rid of MS dependancy and they run Office 365... whats the point.
So everything in the backend is still MS? Office 365, Intune, the full stack? That is the point of the comment you are rerplying to.
The "terminals" dont matter that much if the goal is to get rid of MS dependancy and they run Office 365... whats the point.
Windows licensing cost. They are a pretty penny at large scale.
Sometimes, the goal isn’t actually to switch - it’s to have a credible threat of switching. That alone can bring Microsoft to the table with a whole new attitude toward pricing.
Munich pulled off a version of this around 2010: announce a bold move to Linux and open source, let Microsoft panic, enjoy the sudden price cuts, and quietly stay put.
Personally, I think cost is just one part of the equation. The real value is being in a position where you’re not locked in—and where Microsoft knows it. That leverage is worth more than any licensing discount.
Munich pulled off a version of this around 2010: announce a bold move to Linux and open source, let Microsoft panic, enjoy the sudden price cuts, and quietly stay put.
Personally, I think cost is just one part of the equation. The real value is being in a position where you’re not locked in—and where Microsoft knows it. That leverage is worth more than any licensing discount.
For workstation or laptops?? Non-factor for a business.
It is included in Office 365 E3/E5 that also does Intune device management, apps, Defender, the whole shebang. Nobody cares about individual licence costs.
Windows Server? Yea, that costs for sure, but that's not running on laptops.
It is included in Office 365 E3/E5 that also does Intune device management, apps, Defender, the whole shebang. Nobody cares about individual licence costs.
Windows Server? Yea, that costs for sure, but that's not running on laptops.
> using Edge for SSO
May I ask what that SSO solution is? Because it sounds like it might be a Microsoft product.
May I ask what that SSO solution is? Because it sounds like it might be a Microsoft product.
Yeah, probably is. I see the same HTTP Auth login when accessing my employers intranet (Sharepoint) from Firefox.
Honestly, I’m not entirely sure.
I’ve seen the name Forgerock pop up occasionally, but I don’t know if that’s just tied to the login component on the web pages. Also, they recommend Mac users stick with Safari, which is puzzling. I mean: if it was a Microsoft product, you’d think they’d lock it down to Edge on Mac too—so that makes me wonder.
Just my thoughts—could be totally off base.
I’ve seen the name Forgerock pop up occasionally, but I don’t know if that’s just tied to the login component on the web pages. Also, they recommend Mac users stick with Safari, which is puzzling. I mean: if it was a Microsoft product, you’d think they’d lock it down to Edge on Mac too—so that makes me wonder.
Just my thoughts—could be totally off base.
kerberos is sort of magic when/if you finally get it working
I hope all employees will use their experience to make a success of this project. Switching to Linux and ditching Micro$oft should be priority of each European country.
I hope so too, but I fear that the implementation is rushed and won't yield the positive results it could have.
That's what the EU OS project is also about! https://eu-os.eu
Curious why it's based on Distros primarily backed by US-based companies and not something like SUSE?
I could get behind this and contribute if it didn't use a US corporate distro as a base.
Ideally it should be something like Nix: non-profit foundation headquartered in the Netherlands. SUSE could work too.
As many, many in your issue tracker have commented, you should not be building on Fedora as a base.
I have a related experience. Our project was moving from Office 365 to Google Workspace. Lot's of Windows PCs replaced with Chromebooks.
Over a year after completion, many users still have Excel and we do lots more app virtualization. I will say the biggest hurdle that still remains today, users accepting and adjusting to change. The migration also exposed lots of unknown user-created processes that no longer worked as usual, making it difficult for them to transition.
Overall, most users made the necessary adjustments, did the training provided, and are excelling. There's always that subset that can't, or maybe won't.
Over a year after completion, many users still have Excel and we do lots more app virtualization. I will say the biggest hurdle that still remains today, users accepting and adjusting to change. The migration also exposed lots of unknown user-created processes that no longer worked as usual, making it difficult for them to transition.
Overall, most users made the necessary adjustments, did the training provided, and are excelling. There's always that subset that can't, or maybe won't.
If those users have to work with large spreadsheets then Google Workspace is simply nonfunctional. I've tried to use Google Sheets but it hangs and never finishes recalculations that Excel completes in seconds.
Absolutely have run into that. In those instances they keep excel, or we move that data to a different platform for consumption.
Entra (prev AAD) can be replaced by literally any other OAuth provider for SSO - shibboleth is an on-prem option.
Traditional AD is harder to replace, but OpenShift’s IdP has an AD server mode that is capable of many use-cases; the cases it doesn’t do are GPO, Windows Update forcing, and other stuff no longer relevant on linux.
Are they moving away from Exchange Server? I’d hope so, MTAs are a dime a dozen in linux land. There’s a dozen homegrown alternatives for calendar + mail, from ProtonMail to running Exim + caldav.
The rentier companies may have “extended” the open source backing, but you’re not missing much except marketing.
Traditional AD is harder to replace, but OpenShift’s IdP has an AD server mode that is capable of many use-cases; the cases it doesn’t do are GPO, Windows Update forcing, and other stuff no longer relevant on linux.
Are they moving away from Exchange Server? I’d hope so, MTAs are a dime a dozen in linux land. There’s a dozen homegrown alternatives for calendar + mail, from ProtonMail to running Exim + caldav.
The rentier companies may have “extended” the open source backing, but you’re not missing much except marketing.
Or maybe Microsoft is terrified that it will work? Then Bill Gates would not be able to do his 345th pledge of "I will give away all my money..."
https://www.freeipa.org/
"Manage Linux users and client hosts in your realm from one central location with CLI, Web UI or RPC access. Enable Single Sign On authentication for all your systems, services and applications."
https://www.keycloak.org/
"Open Source Identity and Access Management"
https://www.freeipa.org/
"Manage Linux users and client hosts in your realm from one central location with CLI, Web UI or RPC access. Enable Single Sign On authentication for all your systems, services and applications."
https://www.keycloak.org/
"Open Source Identity and Access Management"
FYI Bill Gates stepped down as CEO in 2000.
"Bill Gates never left" - https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-still-pulling-str...
"...In fact, Business Insider has learned, Gates has been quietly orchestrating much of Microsoft's AI revolution from behind the scenes. Current and former executives say Gates remains intimately involved in the company's operations — advising on strategy, reviewing products, recruiting high-level executives, and nurturing Microsoft's crucial relationship with Sam Altman, the cofounder and CEO of OpenAI..."
"...In fact, Business Insider has learned, Gates has been quietly orchestrating much of Microsoft's AI revolution from behind the scenes. Current and former executives say Gates remains intimately involved in the company's operations — advising on strategy, reviewing products, recruiting high-level executives, and nurturing Microsoft's crucial relationship with Sam Altman, the cofounder and CEO of OpenAI..."
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> Are these Linux machines going to authenticate against the Azure Active Directory... Are they using Intune, if so what's the replacement strategy where?
This comes up all the time when we talk about Linux in corporate deployment. As I have only experience in MS word regarding governance, let me ask this:
- Is there really no tools for Linux world that allows managing loads of Linux machines in an easy manner as it is in MS word (applying GPO policies)? A tool that can be easily set up and managed and doesn't have to always resort to scripting?
- If there is, why people are not using them?
I'm kind of aware some things are that allow managing Linux machines via Windows AD GPO, but that depends on MS domain there.
Seems like a ripe for a startup to provide open source tool(s) with, say, paid support for the enterprises.
This comes up all the time when we talk about Linux in corporate deployment. As I have only experience in MS word regarding governance, let me ask this:
- Is there really no tools for Linux world that allows managing loads of Linux machines in an easy manner as it is in MS word (applying GPO policies)? A tool that can be easily set up and managed and doesn't have to always resort to scripting?
- If there is, why people are not using them?
I'm kind of aware some things are that allow managing Linux machines via Windows AD GPO, but that depends on MS domain there.
Seems like a ripe for a startup to provide open source tool(s) with, say, paid support for the enterprises.
That's depends what you want to do. If you want an all-in-one solution you'd go with the solution of your distribution vendor, e.g. Red Hat IPA/Satellite, SUSE Manager, or Ubuntu Landscape. Linux just plays nicer with ADS than MS Windows with any Linux solution, so most fall back to ADS in mixed environments.
If you only want Identity, Policies and Audit trails over several different Linux distributions, FreeIPA is your weapon of choice. It is clicky and requires no scripting. Just like ADS it is a bit of a pain to get into, but easier to run than OpenLDAP ;) If you want OpenID, too, connect FreeIPA and Keycloak, but you will need to dive onto the CLI. For configuration management connect Saltstack, here you have to edit rules files.
If you only want Identity, Policies and Audit trails over several different Linux distributions, FreeIPA is your weapon of choice. It is clicky and requires no scripting. Just like ADS it is a bit of a pain to get into, but easier to run than OpenLDAP ;) If you want OpenID, too, connect FreeIPA and Keycloak, but you will need to dive onto the CLI. For configuration management connect Saltstack, here you have to edit rules files.
> Is there really no tools for Linux world that allows managing loads of Linux machines in an easy manner as it is in MS word
You can create fedora-based container images with your specific programs and configs included in the rootfs. The newly created container image will then be used as the rootfs for machines when they upgrade.
See https://universal-blue.org/
You can create fedora-based container images with your specific programs and configs included in the rootfs. The newly created container image will then be used as the rootfs for machines when they upgrade.
See https://universal-blue.org/
Funny thing is that Ubuntu, Suse, and RedHat support gpos now: https://ubuntu.com/blog/new-active-directory-integration-fea...
and then most of the places I know happily allow employees admin access for "just that piece of software they need" and simultaneously push for "zero-trust". There's no point in it at all and you can just as well use saltstack to rollout apparmor-policies on your locked-down linux (and suddenly the same people wanting GPOs tell you that linux is untenable because of usage restrictions)
As someone who's career has involved managing large numbers of deployed Linux and BSD machines: what's wrong with scripting? It's expressive, debugable, repeatable, easy to communicate about verbally and on wikis. If you want something that's more constrained there are tools like puppet and ansible.
I guess this is another one of those "smalltalk people" vs "unix people" talking past eachother because they have shared vocabulary with different implications kind of situations.
I guess this is another one of those "smalltalk people" vs "unix people" talking past eachother because they have shared vocabulary with different implications kind of situations.
Scripting is error prone and requires more skilled admins.
Not so great if one wants to deploy Linux as a Desktop OS.
I’ve done it with Puppet, mostly dropping config files around the place.
Everything was more work than it would’ve been under Windows, from endpoint configuration enforcement through to things like authentication and PKI.
Everything was more work than it would’ve been under Windows, from endpoint configuration enforcement through to things like authentication and PKI.
> - Is there really no tools for Linux world that allows managing loads of Linux machines in an easy manner as it is in MS word (applying GPO policies)? A tool that can be easily set up and managed and doesn't have to always resort to scripting?
Nope, there's no unification in configuration formats (yml, ini etc), locations (/var, /etc, /usr, /opt/etc) or registries (dconf, gconf).
Yes, standards exist, but they are rarely followed to the letter.
Nope, there's no unification in configuration formats (yml, ini etc), locations (/var, /etc, /usr, /opt/etc) or registries (dconf, gconf).
Yes, standards exist, but they are rarely followed to the letter.
If it exists, I expect it would be in Red Hat Enterprise Linux or Ubuntu. Most of us don't use those, though, so I don't expect the knowledge is common.
well for server is nix, but not sure about desktop.
I'd say using Nix is bordering on using scripting. Someone still has to write the method that extracts your Nix configuration into a file.
I see this as a win. It will hopefully prune the incompetent managers/leaders and all the other incompetent tech workers that don't understand there is a world outside of the Microsoft/Google ecosystem.
I want to believe that it is not actual incompetence (and nobody will get pruned) but rather laziness/habit/lack of motivation. I have been in a big org where any issues related to how non-windows systems were integrated were, frustratingly, ignored, even if those systems were supposed to be supported and offered as choices (and indeed chosen by many employees). The IT people working on the servers did not care because in windows everything was working fine, and other departments did not have the actual tools to solve anything. They were asking us if we had any spare computer around they could borrow to test things ffs. I hope such changes bring at least the necessary motivation to engage with such issues seriously.
What required software will be rendered rendered incompatible after switching to Linux and Libre Office? Perhaps the crisis will be a shot across the bow at how IT systems almost-universally make computing a bad experience. Technical software like SolidWorks sometimes has OS-restrictions, but most of what I can think of that would be useful for school is, or should be OS-agnostic.
I suspect that some of the software devs here, especially at small companies, may be insulated from the horror that is government and enterprise computer networks. If that stuff breaks, this will be an improvement for users as long as they can get internet.
I suspect I am looking at this through a mix of optimism and naivite. Or colored by my own experiences.
I suspect that some of the software devs here, especially at small companies, may be insulated from the horror that is government and enterprise computer networks. If that stuff breaks, this will be an improvement for users as long as they can get internet.
I suspect I am looking at this through a mix of optimism and naivite. Or colored by my own experiences.
>I suspect I am looking at this through a mix of optimism and naivite.
For sure.
For sure.
I agree that the planning does not consider a lot of aspects, but this is not the reason to surrender for big tech. We need more experts and a more sensible plan indeed, that considers the infrastructure, authentication, and so on.
> They are setting themselves up for complete failure.
Maybe, but as the article states, they already acknowledge the possibility and have a backup plan in place, and, frankly, someone needs to be first.
You could argue that this should not happen on the taxpayers' watch at this department. Yes, maybe some national or EU-level body should actually do the R&D to solve the structural issues around large scale Linux usage so that everyone can benefit. But for now this seems like a reasonable approach for a pretty small organization and a good learning step.
Maybe, but as the article states, they already acknowledge the possibility and have a backup plan in place, and, frankly, someone needs to be first.
You could argue that this should not happen on the taxpayers' watch at this department. Yes, maybe some national or EU-level body should actually do the R&D to solve the structural issues around large scale Linux usage so that everyone can benefit. But for now this seems like a reasonable approach for a pretty small organization and a good learning step.
yesterday: I saw the weird CVE for M365 which "exploits" some LLM through messaging embedded in emails.
today: got a very long email, wanted to search for our department in it. Outlook: "Search is a deprecated feature".
Despite all the "but you can't extrapolate to a large org from personal experiences"-FUD around, I think for most orgs (especially governments which are generally far behind on processes) it would be easy to switch from a feature-perspective. The problem is the army of employees and contractors who are very happy to defend Microsoft for keeping their non-automated thiefdoms (such is non-cloud AD administration at most places I extrapolate ....). There is hardly anyone there to implement the necessary processes and rather than to send out their underlings to FOSDEM, leadership is happy to get an invite by Microsoft (or a cloud-provider...) to an "innovation-summit" instead.
today: got a very long email, wanted to search for our department in it. Outlook: "Search is a deprecated feature".
Despite all the "but you can't extrapolate to a large org from personal experiences"-FUD around, I think for most orgs (especially governments which are generally far behind on processes) it would be easy to switch from a feature-perspective. The problem is the army of employees and contractors who are very happy to defend Microsoft for keeping their non-automated thiefdoms (such is non-cloud AD administration at most places I extrapolate ....). There is hardly anyone there to implement the necessary processes and rather than to send out their underlings to FOSDEM, leadership is happy to get an invite by Microsoft (or a cloud-provider...) to an "innovation-summit" instead.
I was watching my wife navigate Outlook the other day, I can't believe how bad it's got since I last used it. It was completely unresponsive on brand new hardware. The UI was awful.
Outlook used to be one of the best email clients available. Now it’s essentially the worst imaginable.
We just renewed our 365 licenses at my company for one more year. I’ve been mentally sketching out an exit strategy. I inventoried what we use in 365 and Azure, and there’s not a single thing we can’t replace with an alternative we run or a different provider that’s a bit less hostile to third party ecosystems/standards/etc.
We just renewed our 365 licenses at my company for one more year. I’ve been mentally sketching out an exit strategy. I inventoried what we use in 365 and Azure, and there’s not a single thing we can’t replace with an alternative we run or a different provider that’s a bit less hostile to third party ecosystems/standards/etc.
Have you worked out the cost differences?
I briefly used MS word recently, and the UI is so different. I found it quite hard to find things.
Heh, I fired up Libre Office a while back. Built up a home machine that does run Windows 10 (some embedded dev tools I want to run with low hassle), but all software on it is either OSS, or free beer type software.
No 365, lol and the Win 10 pro license was $5 (electronicsfirst.com)
Libre Office is GREAT. I have not used it in a while. In a couple hours, I had my styles, fonts and goodies all setup.
Making docs and a fairly detailed presentation were a pleasure.
Office is degrading rapidly right now!
No 365, lol and the Win 10 pro license was $5 (electronicsfirst.com)
Libre Office is GREAT. I have not used it in a while. In a couple hours, I had my styles, fonts and goodies all setup.
Making docs and a fairly detailed presentation were a pleasure.
Office is degrading rapidly right now!
Outlook has gotten so terrible that the web version is better these days...
Search is a deprecated feature?
I think they may have triggered a wrong search. Smart Lookup in Office is indeed deprecated and labeled Search. So right click on a word in a text, select Search and that will no longer work, but that wasn't searching in your text, but rather online.
that might indeed be the problem. I however did not find any other suitably marked element and CTRL+F apparently is too simple for outlook. Maybe you can select a single mail in the search bar...
This. Didn't Denmark try this before and fail? Didn't some German town do this and went back?
It's also file compatibility.
But yes, the big thing is AD. AD has been out since 2000 and was/is the standard. If you have/had AD and Group policy you move to AAD and Intune for cloud. There is no competitor to this. Zero.
It's also file compatibility.
But yes, the big thing is AD. AD has been out since 2000 and was/is the standard. If you have/had AD and Group policy you move to AAD and Intune for cloud. There is no competitor to this. Zero.
Munich tried this, then MS moved its German office to Munich.
Why not rework auth?
Why are you stuck on azure AD?
Why are you stuck on azure AD?
> They'll just force the students out of the relatively protected Google Workspace for Students, into the "real" Google/Gmail ecosystems where they are less protected against data mining
What? This sounds like there is an observable way of telling that there's different levels of data mining going on in these two spaces, mind sharing the evidence?
What? This sounds like there is an observable way of telling that there's different levels of data mining going on in these two spaces, mind sharing the evidence?
There is no data mining/profiling in Googles educational offering (also no ads, which there is in regular Gmail):
> Google Workspace for Education Core Services (like Gmail, Google Calendar, Classroom, and more) have no ads, and student information in Core Services is never used to create profiles for ad targeting, or sold to third parties.[1]
1) https://edu.google.com/intl/ALL_us/our-values/privacy-securi...
> Google Workspace for Education Core Services (like Gmail, Google Calendar, Classroom, and more) have no ads, and student information in Core Services is never used to create profiles for ad targeting, or sold to third parties.[1]
1) https://edu.google.com/intl/ALL_us/our-values/privacy-securi...
Makes sense. Get them used to using Google services, or else someone else will step in and do it.
Same reason Microsoft used to give all sorts of free licenses to students.
Same reason Microsoft used to give all sorts of free licenses to students.
There are so many better ways to do this right. But they don't make big news.
Why Linux at all in this case if it’s just like RDS?
Honestly just use Azure Virtual Desktops.
Honestly just use Azure Virtual Desktops.
Linux desktop has terrible security model. Unless they intend to spend significant amount of time hardening the base distro, which also comes with it's own caveats. Windows, for all it's problems, is still a better choice for an enterprise environment
The companies falling to malware and extortion/ransomware would seem to indicate otherwise
What? That is really stupid way to think you're better off using Linux Desktop. Plenty of modern malware versions target pretty much every OS, from windows to mac
It's also just absurd in general since no one who has used LibreOffice can seriously think it is a viable replacement. It can do in a pinch but I imagine the file format incompatibility issues between ms and libre are going to cost more in lost productivity than your number above.
This is a particular brand of take strikes me as lazy. In general, each type of product is going to have some core features that almost everyone needs. And then there's going to be a long tail of features that fewer and fewer users need to make use of the tool effectively. Office tools like LibreOffice and Google Sheets strike a sort of 80/20, where they can build perhaps less than half the features of the totally complete product, but still serve a huge percentage of the market's needs (maybe 95%+, since most users aren't power users).
So when I see critiques of GIMP versus Photoshop, or Linux versus Windows, or LibreOffice versus Microsoft Office, saying "oh, it has fewer features and therefore nobody can take it seriously" it's just reductive, and provides zero useful insight. It's all about the particular needs of the person or organization and how those intersect with the features of the product they're thinking of adopting.
So when I see critiques of GIMP versus Photoshop, or Linux versus Windows, or LibreOffice versus Microsoft Office, saying "oh, it has fewer features and therefore nobody can take it seriously" it's just reductive, and provides zero useful insight. It's all about the particular needs of the person or organization and how those intersect with the features of the product they're thinking of adopting.
I would go further and say that MS products have completely backwards priorities that lead to an overinflated feature count. What good is fancy formatting in excel if it chokes and crashes once the file hits about 20 MB? Yet despite all this emphasis on form over function over multiple decades of being a flagship product for a multibillion dollar software empire, it still produces plots that are unacceptable for publication and instill bad habits in students.
I'm convinced the people who insist on "features" in these products don't actually use them, because if they did they would realize they suck and are a distraction from a poor core product. It's like people in the US who live in downtown apartments and insist on driving massive overpriced pickup trucks to commute to work and get groceries, never hauling or towing or leaving the pavement. They would be better served by commuter vehicles, but all they've ever driven is show trucks and learning new things is scary. If they did attempt to do real work, they would quickly realize the bed can't hold a standard sheet of plywood.
The important thing is that they FEEL like they have capability at their fingertips, even if this is obviously an illusion to people who actually use those capabilities.
I'm convinced the people who insist on "features" in these products don't actually use them, because if they did they would realize they suck and are a distraction from a poor core product. It's like people in the US who live in downtown apartments and insist on driving massive overpriced pickup trucks to commute to work and get groceries, never hauling or towing or leaving the pavement. They would be better served by commuter vehicles, but all they've ever driven is show trucks and learning new things is scary. If they did attempt to do real work, they would quickly realize the bed can't hold a standard sheet of plywood.
The important thing is that they FEEL like they have capability at their fingertips, even if this is obviously an illusion to people who actually use those capabilities.
It's possible you found a bug in Excel somewhere but I guarantee that when working with large files it's generally faster and more reliable than the competition. I have successfully worked with files way larger than 20 MB which make competing products such as Apple Numbers or Google Sheets completely choke.
Compare with gnumeric, that's the only spreadsheet I can recommend. I have files with hundreds of plots, non-trivial fits, and logic. 100% of everything works always and it's much faster.
I have a direct comparison because the exact same computations were previously implemented in excel and libre office. Both dropped plots from files, had straight-up reference bugs once things got large, and would regularly crash attempting to render dozens of tiled plots in 4k. The idea of using Google sheets for this is laughable.
I have a direct comparison because the exact same computations were previously implemented in excel and libre office. Both dropped plots from files, had straight-up reference bugs once things got large, and would regularly crash attempting to render dozens of tiled plots in 4k. The idea of using Google sheets for this is laughable.
In my past life, we had a mix of Linux users using LibreOffice and MS Windows using Office. It was indeed at times painful, especially when LO content had to be merged into a Word doc.
But too often I think people just think of Word vs Writer but we're talking the Office experience here. Calc is a poor man's version of Excel: I've found it slow with many rows of data and crash-prone (Office is surprisingly solid). Then there is Visio vs Draw. Use Draw for anything complex and you're going to have a really bad time. Us Engineering folk would put together Visio documents all the time and embed them in lengthy technical documents and proposals. Trying to do this in LO is a road to ruin. The Linux folks would either draw diagrams with sticks and boxes or get somebody in Windows to make something decent in Visio.
What we ended up doing was giving a Windows VM with Office on it for those Linux users that needed to produce documents and the like.
But too often I think people just think of Word vs Writer but we're talking the Office experience here. Calc is a poor man's version of Excel: I've found it slow with many rows of data and crash-prone (Office is surprisingly solid). Then there is Visio vs Draw. Use Draw for anything complex and you're going to have a really bad time. Us Engineering folk would put together Visio documents all the time and embed them in lengthy technical documents and proposals. Trying to do this in LO is a road to ruin. The Linux folks would either draw diagrams with sticks and boxes or get somebody in Windows to make something decent in Visio.
What we ended up doing was giving a Windows VM with Office on it for those Linux users that needed to produce documents and the like.
>What we ended up doing was giving a Windows VM with Office on it for those Linux users that needed to produce documents and the like.
and at that point, you might as well just use windows, you aren't getting any advantage out of linux and are spending a bunch of overhead managing it.
and at that point, you might as well just use windows, you aren't getting any advantage out of linux and are spending a bunch of overhead managing it.
The 80/20 rule doesn't apply here because it turns out the "20" is different for everyone. If you take away one critical piece of user or organization's workflow then it doesn't really matter that everything else still works.
For LibreOffice there is still a huge functionality gap in VBA support. This is mission critical in a lot of places.
For LibreOffice there is still a huge functionality gap in VBA support. This is mission critical in a lot of places.
I'm just saying 80% of spreadsheet users' needs are covered by 20% of excel's features. We can adjust those percentages, but I do think the principal holds that some features are used by a broader population of others, and Calc tends to focus on those features.
The only problem I ever had with LibreOffice is that (at the time) there seemed to be some inconsistency when showing some PowerPoint-generated slideshows. I suspect the standard is incomplete and the issue is just a matter of matching the expectations of whatever software was used by the person who generated the slides. So, if the officials switch, it is fine.
Anyway, if the government is generating files that require MS office to open, they are essentially creating an undocumented tax, to be paid to a foreign company. This seems… legally questionable (depending on your local laws of course), and wildly stupid.
Anyway, if the government is generating files that require MS office to open, they are essentially creating an undocumented tax, to be paid to a foreign company. This seems… legally questionable (depending on your local laws of course), and wildly stupid.
Denmark does have a policy of being able to use either docx or odf, but LibreOffice is also known for being able to open older doc files that modern Word struggle with.
I'm not to worried about the LibreOffice part.
I'm not to worried about the LibreOffice part.
LibreOffice is great, but not supporting multiple users simultaneously editing the same document is a serious limitation compared to proprietary solutions such as MS Office and Google Workspace.
Also, replacing Windows by Linux and MS Office by LibreOffice is only the surface of the problem. What about replacing Entra (identity and access management), Intune (endpoint management), file sharing (OneDrive), email and calendar (Exchange Online)?
Russia, China, and India have invested a lot in developing their equivalent of 365 and Google Workspace (mainly via Yandex, Alibaba, and Zoho). Europe needs to accelerate on this.
Edit: There is some progress on LibreOffice real-time collaboration:
https://zetaoffice.net/
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/13/libreoffice_wasm_zeta...
Also, replacing Windows by Linux and MS Office by LibreOffice is only the surface of the problem. What about replacing Entra (identity and access management), Intune (endpoint management), file sharing (OneDrive), email and calendar (Exchange Online)?
Russia, China, and India have invested a lot in developing their equivalent of 365 and Google Workspace (mainly via Yandex, Alibaba, and Zoho). Europe needs to accelerate on this.
Edit: There is some progress on LibreOffice real-time collaboration:
https://zetaoffice.net/
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/13/libreoffice_wasm_zeta...
Live collaboration is not an MS Office native functionality either (needs OneDrive / SharePoint as a backend). If your org uses traditional file shares or some cloud storage/sync tool that is not MS, you're out of luck.
There are tools like Collabora (built on LibreOffice) that work very similar to what you would get from MS. Collabora, for example, can also be integraded with Nextcloud and Owncloud.
There are tools like Collabora (built on LibreOffice) that work very similar to what you would get from MS. Collabora, for example, can also be integraded with Nextcloud and Owncloud.
Is simultaneous editing really that important? Especially in a government context? My experience with older office workers is that all of them use ancient, offline versions of Word anyway...
Not all office workers are old. Some are young and want to use modern collaboration tools. Even government workers. I think real-time collaborative editing is a chicken-and-egg. You don't know you need it until you start using it. I'm using this often in meetings where the participants all work on the same document, usually some notes/memo or spreadsheet. But I agree that for the note taking use case, a full-blown word processor is not necessary.
Lack of features is not an excuse for a government to adopt proprietary software.
Surely, the Danish government can figure out how to support real-time collaboration in LibreOffice.
Surely, the Danish government can figure out how to support real-time collaboration in LibreOffice.
It doesn't need an excuse; it's a fully valid reason. Using proprietary software is a perfectly valid choice to make.
Chosing to pay millions when it is not necessary is definitely not a valid choice. It is at best stupidity, at worse corruption.
In my experience in the public sector in France, I have seen these decisions taken to advance someone's career.
For example, a first year free means a purchase person will get their promotion on incredible YoY progress.
In my experience in the public sector in France, I have seen these decisions taken to advance someone's career.
For example, a first year free means a purchase person will get their promotion on incredible YoY progress.
Deploying a free tool that doesn't solve an organizations problems isn't a valid choice. I'm tired of open source advocates hand-waving away the reasons people choose other software. For most organizations, software is not a big cost, labor is. It often makes sense to throw a million dollars at a piece of software to make people's job easier, because that can translate to tens of millions in labor.
That is stretching the subject beyond reasonable. Proprietary software as a general endeavor is not an invalid business and nobody is saying that here.
LibreOffice is close enough to Microsoft's offering that surely it makes sense accross the many EU states to stop spending millions on it, and spend a few to close the gap, saving even more millions in the future.
LibreOffice is close enough to Microsoft's offering that surely it makes sense accross the many EU states to stop spending millions on it, and spend a few to close the gap, saving even more millions in the future.
Respectfully, I think it's a bit of a Dunning–Kruger effect for random internet commenters to presume they know what is "close enough" to meet the requirements for the many thousands of different day jobs that people have across the different governments of dozens of different countries.
Certainly the people buying software know best what their requirements are.
Certainly the people buying software know best what their requirements are.
> Certainly the people buying software know best what their requirements are.
I doubt it. The people who are going to use the software are the ones who know what the requirements are. The people buying it should be asking the users, but rarely do.
I doubt it. The people who are going to use the software are the ones who know what the requirements are. The people buying it should be asking the users, but rarely do.
For a large software deployment, you should be getting part of your requirements from discussions with users, but there will often be a lot of requirements from non-user stakeholders. For government deployments, even more so.
Have you ever actually worked in a large org or government IT department? :D
Commendable ideas, but they do not translate to reality. Even taking the OSS discussion out of the equation: Understanding and integrating user requirements in development processes is a hard problem in general. It gets worse when we are talking about resource-constrained contexts (like government IT)
Commendable ideas, but they do not translate to reality. Even taking the OSS discussion out of the equation: Understanding and integrating user requirements in development processes is a hard problem in general. It gets worse when we are talking about resource-constrained contexts (like government IT)
I didn’t say it wasn’t hard. Regardless it is extremely routine for multiple stakeholders groups to be involved in software purchases, at least over my 20 years of experience.
Ideally yes, but do you realistically think that happens?
Let's be real... Tons of governments employ people just to boost employment numbers. Government staff are almost always simply a cost, governments don't need to be profitable. They extract taxes and then spend it. And I think a lot of countries would prefer to spend more on salaries than on software licenses going to a different country...
In English the word "free" is apparently another difficulty. The technical Four Freedoms are not at all about the money. Money can be exchanged between willing partners of course. That includes government. The means and methods of closed source, and the means and methods of "corruption" are real.
I believe the Danish gov is roughly spending 50M EUR/year to MS, certainly you can get the features needed paying for dev time for an open source project with some of that spend.
Not that it is insurmountable -- but the difficulty with adopting open source more broadly often isn't a financial issue, but organizational. A successful enterprise software deployment consists of a lot more than simply paying developers. You need the correct management in place to ensure the developers are building the right features, to ensure they meet your organizations needs in terms of compliance, deployment, support, ensure your users understand how to use the product, etc. Organizations that are familiar with software development can often do this, but these types of projects are sometimes beyond the reach of the expertise of other organizations.
Absolutely, management and maturity are key to success in this regard.
Can we talk about the LibreOffice UI/UX? It's shit. It doesn't feel like MS Office, but like some Frankenstein's version of it. I would much rather prefer if OnlyOffice were pushed as the open source standard for office apps instead of Libre. OnlyOffice mirrors everything that MS Office offers, the only difference being the lack of VBA coding (instead replaced by JS coding).
> What about replacing Entra (identity and access management), Intune (endpoint management), file sharing (OneDrive), email and calendar (Exchange Online)?
Simple, switch when they find something that fits their need. They don't have to switch everything at the same time. And it's not just about switching technologies, it's probably also about fighting against pushbacks ("lobbying", etc), dealing with training, and other unforseen (at least to the layman) things that happens when a huge entity starts pulling away from microsoft. I don't think there are degooglify/demicrosoftify-yourself manuals at the state level.
Simple, switch when they find something that fits their need. They don't have to switch everything at the same time. And it's not just about switching technologies, it's probably also about fighting against pushbacks ("lobbying", etc), dealing with training, and other unforseen (at least to the layman) things that happens when a huge entity starts pulling away from microsoft. I don't think there are degooglify/demicrosoftify-yourself manuals at the state level.
The Austrian Federal Ministry of Justice has been on LibreOffice for many years now, with the Austrian Federal Computing Center developing extensions specifically for their use-cases.
This is a great trend. I wonder how long until Microsoft's Ballmer-type people fly into Munich again to commit corruption / lobbying.
This is a great trend. I wonder how long until Microsoft's Ballmer-type people fly into Munich again to commit corruption / lobbying.
License fees for a few thousand workplaces of Microsoft can pay for a lot of development on FOSS alternatives instead. There is very little overhead there.
Some things take a lot of work, but many changes that would be useful are pretty easy to make. Crash and bug and (some) performance fixes, time-saving automations and integrations with rough and / or minimal user interfaces and so on.
Some things take a lot of work, but many changes that would be useful are pretty easy to make. Crash and bug and (some) performance fixes, time-saving automations and integrations with rough and / or minimal user interfaces and so on.
Something this article doesn't mention is that this only pertains to the ministry itself, which has like 80 employees, and not its much larger subsidiaries (Digitaliseringsstyrelsen and Danmarks Statistik).
Aarhus and Copenhagen municipalities are planning to do the same, and have around 80000 employees, that's a much bigger deal in my opinion.
Aarhus and Copenhagen municipalities are planning to do the same, and have around 80000 employees, that's a much bigger deal in my opinion.
I was recently wondering why something of this nature hasn't happened long ago. Governments have to be spending so much money on licensing fees.
It seems like you could throw a fraction of that money at open source software, actually make it good and then not be beholden to corporations like Microsoft or Google. Combine this sort push between multiple governments and the world gets good (at least relatively) software for all of the major office and design concerns.
CAD software is the same. I tried freecad recently after a long hiatus and came back to immediately crashing after trying to make a cube from a sketch and also finding out that there's no midpoint constraint (wtf) if I remember correctly.
It seems like you could throw a fraction of that money at open source software, actually make it good and then not be beholden to corporations like Microsoft or Google. Combine this sort push between multiple governments and the world gets good (at least relatively) software for all of the major office and design concerns.
CAD software is the same. I tried freecad recently after a long hiatus and came back to immediately crashing after trying to make a cube from a sketch and also finding out that there's no midpoint constraint (wtf) if I remember correctly.
>> It seems like you could throw a fraction of that money at open source software, actually make it good
As much as I love OSS I don't think throwing money at it is what's going to make it rival large closed-source software projects. You need clear direction and goals which won't happen when building by committee.
As much as I love OSS I don't think throwing money at it is what's going to make it rival large closed-source software projects. You need clear direction and goals which won't happen when building by committee.
That's a fair point, but I think it primarily depends on the nature of the committee. I could be wrong because I don't operate in oss spaces, so I'm not sure about their structure.
The first acknowledgement is that ui and design is just as important as technical functionality because a good idea that no one can use is a bad idea.
If we can have a technical team collaborate to design oss code, why can't we have a design team as well that's focused purely on themes, UX, and design philosophy?
Of course this is all prefaced on the idea that the money is there to support such a team. I suspect good designers are less likely to be on the "working for free" bandwagon.
Financial support can bring in better talent, then the oss teams need to structure them selves properly so intransigence doesn't set in.
The first acknowledgement is that ui and design is just as important as technical functionality because a good idea that no one can use is a bad idea.
If we can have a technical team collaborate to design oss code, why can't we have a design team as well that's focused purely on themes, UX, and design philosophy?
Of course this is all prefaced on the idea that the money is there to support such a team. I suspect good designers are less likely to be on the "working for free" bandwagon.
Financial support can bring in better talent, then the oss teams need to structure them selves properly so intransigence doesn't set in.
If you're a government, it makes more sense to throw the money at creating your own infrastructure than paying to make a foreign company control everything you're running.
Everything is alright until the country with the highest obesity rate in the world chooses not to honor your patent for ozempic for example and makes it for a lot cheaper back home, then you escalate, then they escalate, something something your software stops getting updates or gets locked down.
I obviously don't think this is a likely scenario to happen, but so is getting nuked, yet every government has some sort of bunker command center, but everyone just seems ok with trusting those US companies with everything.
And today you don't even have to recreate the wheel, there are some open source alternatives for almost everything, and as a government if you put in the money you could improve on those, other governments can get inspired and improve on them as well, etc.
Everything is alright until the country with the highest obesity rate in the world chooses not to honor your patent for ozempic for example and makes it for a lot cheaper back home, then you escalate, then they escalate, something something your software stops getting updates or gets locked down.
I obviously don't think this is a likely scenario to happen, but so is getting nuked, yet every government has some sort of bunker command center, but everyone just seems ok with trusting those US companies with everything.
And today you don't even have to recreate the wheel, there are some open source alternatives for almost everything, and as a government if you put in the money you could improve on those, other governments can get inspired and improve on them as well, etc.
If the US sanctions you, it'll be much much harder for American companies like microsoft to send updates legally...
So it's on the escalation ladder for sure.
So it's on the escalation ladder for sure.
The midpoint constraint you seek in the symmetry constraint that looks like this: ><
Somebody tell the Danish legal team that Tritium (https://tritium.legal) runs on Linux :).
I said it on the prior thread, and I think it's worth reiterating: Politics aside, Microsoft has such a strangle hold on so many industries it's insane. That reach is just extending with copilot + OpenAI and Azure. The next few years could be bleak if it plays the way MSFT is trying to push it. Good for Denmark.
I said it on the prior thread, and I think it's worth reiterating: Politics aside, Microsoft has such a strangle hold on so many industries it's insane. That reach is just extending with copilot + OpenAI and Azure. The next few years could be bleak if it plays the way MSFT is trying to push it. Good for Denmark.
The companies and Government offices in Denmark are heavily entrenched in Microsoft ecosystem as I remember from a few years ago. The amount of money they would be spending in license costs!
It is 2025, couldn’t we get away with using cheaper/even free(and or open source) online versions of office software?
I don’t even have MS Office installed on my personal computer. When I need to deal with .docs or .xlsx files, I either use Google docs or Libre Office if it is too complicated for Google Docs.
It is 2025, couldn’t we get away with using cheaper/even free(and or open source) online versions of office software?
I don’t even have MS Office installed on my personal computer. When I need to deal with .docs or .xlsx files, I either use Google docs or Libre Office if it is too complicated for Google Docs.
Check https://www.onlyoffice.com/ honestly it's pretty good, open source, multiplatform and it opens everything I've thrown at it so far.
I like libre in general but one too many times it just didn't play ball with some random docx documents.
I like libre in general but one too many times it just didn't play ball with some random docx documents.
It is not as open. Try building the desktop editors yourself. Some parts of the build system are not documented / not included in the repo.
Moreover it is a rebranding of Russian P7 Office. The company didn't cut ties with Russia and they still sell to the military. The owner created multiple shell companies in Latvia and Singapore to obscure this. I don't think this is something that EU governments trust, unless a deep inspection of the entire source is done and the repo is forked under an EU entity.
https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/serious-claims-made-agai...
Moreover it is a rebranding of Russian P7 Office. The company didn't cut ties with Russia and they still sell to the military. The owner created multiple shell companies in Latvia and Singapore to obscure this. I don't think this is something that EU governments trust, unless a deep inspection of the entire source is done and the repo is forked under an EU entity.
https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/serious-claims-made-agai...
Awwww fuck, thanks for the heads up.
I don't have ms office installed in my work macbook (it was not pre-installed, they just told me I should install it but I never did). Only once I actually needed access to a computer with ms office installed, because of some horrible word template that should not have existed in the first place. Most of the time microsoft's online suite works just fine, if I cannot do it in pages/numbers. The times I had to use teams (my group hates it and doesn't use it, so only when have to talk with outsiders) running it from the browser worked too.
My colleagues have more problems than me anyway with reading those csv files in excel in a locale that uses "," for decimals. A side effect of avoiding excel is that it is much easier to read csv files for me.
I understand others may make heavier use of more word-excel specific stuff and have more issues, but I never had actual issues with avoiding to install ms office at work, even though everybody here uses it all the time and I have to work together on documents with them.
My colleagues have more problems than me anyway with reading those csv files in excel in a locale that uses "," for decimals. A side effect of avoiding excel is that it is much easier to read csv files for me.
I understand others may make heavier use of more word-excel specific stuff and have more issues, but I never had actual issues with avoiding to install ms office at work, even though everybody here uses it all the time and I have to work together on documents with them.
It is 2025, couldn’t we get away with using cheaper/even free(and or open source) online versions of office software?
Online?! There should be no usage of anything online to store or work with government data.
Online?! There should be no usage of anything online to store or work with government data.
as I said previously there will be an inflection point and then MS is basically history in the whole country,
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44238752
that's the way Denmark works
which I am personally looking forward to, not because I think MS is so much worse than Linux, Mac etc. (although haven't really used for some years so I may be wrong) I personally think of OS's as being commodified, and I do like the ability that MS gives you to do globaly hotkeys and hotstrings that you really can't replicate easily, if at all, in other OS's (which security wise is probably a plus, if you can catch keystrokes easily enough you can make keyloggers), nope I have a personal beef here.
Some years ago I was working for the Danish Governmental department of IT and Telephony, later changed to Digitization Department (a department or "styrelse" being a big government agency subsidiary to a ministry) running a project to provide overarching data standardization for the government - mainly providing and hosting XML schemas for data interchange, providing some services etc.
The data interchange repository we were on was provided by Microsoft, which was built on top of some MS product the name of which I can't recall that they were thinking was good for this kind of thing, a glorified file server with some lousy search etc. It was extremely sub-par, so we had a meeting with some MS guys, Jean Paoli etc. where basically they got mad at us for their sub par product and said they couldn't be associated with it, this came about a month after Bill Gates had a meeting the prime minister and talked shit about how Denmark needed MS but MS didn't need Denmark.
So anyway, personally, my spiteful little heart will sing when Denmark no longer "needs" MS.
which I am personally looking forward to, not because I think MS is so much worse than Linux, Mac etc. (although haven't really used for some years so I may be wrong) I personally think of OS's as being commodified, and I do like the ability that MS gives you to do globaly hotkeys and hotstrings that you really can't replicate easily, if at all, in other OS's (which security wise is probably a plus, if you can catch keystrokes easily enough you can make keyloggers), nope I have a personal beef here.
Some years ago I was working for the Danish Governmental department of IT and Telephony, later changed to Digitization Department (a department or "styrelse" being a big government agency subsidiary to a ministry) running a project to provide overarching data standardization for the government - mainly providing and hosting XML schemas for data interchange, providing some services etc.
The data interchange repository we were on was provided by Microsoft, which was built on top of some MS product the name of which I can't recall that they were thinking was good for this kind of thing, a glorified file server with some lousy search etc. It was extremely sub-par, so we had a meeting with some MS guys, Jean Paoli etc. where basically they got mad at us for their sub par product and said they couldn't be associated with it, this came about a month after Bill Gates had a meeting the prime minister and talked shit about how Denmark needed MS but MS didn't need Denmark.
So anyway, personally, my spiteful little heart will sing when Denmark no longer "needs" MS.
Governments should fund more open source projects. Apparently there's a model of governance here that could work. Enough people like writing software. The innate motivation is there. With funding, there could be more of it.
There might be some iffy issues. For example, if a state backs certain open source software too hard, then I'm afraid you get "state backed vaporware" in some cases. I can definitely see where it'll be like "Denmark has start open source initiative xyz" but because it's so externally pushed, from a motivation standpoint, it becomes half baked.
So I'm more advocating for a gentle monetary nudge.
There might be some iffy issues. For example, if a state backs certain open source software too hard, then I'm afraid you get "state backed vaporware" in some cases. I can definitely see where it'll be like "Denmark has start open source initiative xyz" but because it's so externally pushed, from a motivation standpoint, it becomes half baked.
So I'm more advocating for a gentle monetary nudge.
They're planning the whole migration in less than 6 months. As they say (or at least google translate says), "Held og lykke". A lot of these migration plans strike me as being basically a negotiating tactic with Microsoft.
LibreOffice is terrible. I cannot believe how anyone can do anything with it. I cannot stand Word but it's just impossible to find a true replacement for it. OnlyOffice should get more recognition. It is the closest you can get for Word replacement
> I cannot stand Word but it's just impossible to find a true replacement for it.
As someone who's never used Word: what do you use Word for that it's hard to find a replacement?
(For me, the "light" things I want to note down and version, I use one of the lightweight markup languages. The "heavy" things, I either use TeX or something to convert my lightweight markup into a pdf or whatever people want. What am I missing?)
As someone who's never used Word: what do you use Word for that it's hard to find a replacement?
(For me, the "light" things I want to note down and version, I use one of the lightweight markup languages. The "heavy" things, I either use TeX or something to convert my lightweight markup into a pdf or whatever people want. What am I missing?)
>what do you use Word for that it's hard to find a replacement?
Opening files created by other organizations and expecting them to load correctly and accurately, and then editing them and expecting them to load correctly and accurately when I send them back.
Opening files created by other organizations and expecting them to load correctly and accurately, and then editing them and expecting them to load correctly and accurately when I send them back.
How is it terrible? I keep hearing people say this, but I've never actually experienced any shortcomings personally. Granted, I don't really use word processors much. But when I did, I never had any.
Fit and finish aren't there, and have barely improved. It just looks bad. And it starts slowly (but so does Microsoft Office). Having to decide which fork to use is a problem.
Otherwise, I haven't had major issues. Sometime it doesn't work well with complex excel sheets, or complex word docs; create doc in X, edit in Y, view in X is likely to be disappointing if formatting is critical, but I've seen people use a publish to PDF, edit by change requests flow for that instead.
Other than multiplayer support, it's still much nicer than Google Docs, which can look better but likes to get into weird partially loaded states or runs simple spreadsheet tasks very slowly due to mandatory interaction with a server.
Otherwise, I haven't had major issues. Sometime it doesn't work well with complex excel sheets, or complex word docs; create doc in X, edit in Y, view in X is likely to be disappointing if formatting is critical, but I've seen people use a publish to PDF, edit by change requests flow for that instead.
Other than multiplayer support, it's still much nicer than Google Docs, which can look better but likes to get into weird partially loaded states or runs simple spreadsheet tasks very slowly due to mandatory interaction with a server.
LibreOffice does everything I need it to...
Most people only use a small percentage of functionality in any app.
Most people only use a small percentage of functionality in any app.
Individually, sure. But in an organization, the larger it is, the more probability that all of the features are being used approaches 1. Then you don't have a software issue anymore, you have a business workflow, retraining, or retooling issue.
Most admin staff don't do anything complex aside from writing letters. They don't create complex docs with table of contents and images and so on.
I have worked for companies prior who gave basic online office 365 to 99% of staff and then more expensive subscriptions on a as needed basis.
I have worked for companies prior who gave basic online office 365 to 99% of staff and then more expensive subscriptions on a as needed basis.
Using multiple tiers of the same application is a good strategy.
And using partial MS Office and partial LibreOffice is also certainly an option, but whether it will be successful depends on an organization's workflow, because that introduces an additional interoperability risk which isn't an issue if everyone uses the same tool.
And using partial MS Office and partial LibreOffice is also certainly an option, but whether it will be successful depends on an organization's workflow, because that introduces an additional interoperability risk which isn't an issue if everyone uses the same tool.
Yeah I tried so hard to use LibreOffice. OnlyOffice is great
Americans do not realize how much damage Trump has done to the trust in American services. Europeans used to consider America as an ally the same as other European countries, now it is more like an unreliable trade partner.
Microsoft tried to reassure the Europeans [1] but not even a month later they were forced to disable the email account of ICC Chief Prosecutor Karim Khan [2] due to sanctions from Trump voiding their reassurance completely. What happens when Trump gets mad at Denmark for not giving him Greenland and forces Microsoft to turn off Danish services?
Every large European company and all of the governments are now considering how to move away from US services. They may not be able to do it quickly but it is a part of the conversation. Customers specifically request that new systems should be independent from US service providers.
In my view the damage has been done and will not go away even after Trump. The Europeans have realized that their only true allies, that they can trust in terms of critical infrastructure, are other European nations. It used to include America, it no longer does.
[1] https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2025/04/30/europea...
[2] https://nltimes.nl/2025/05/20/microsofts-icc-email-block-tri...
Every large European company and all of the governments are now considering how to move away from US services. They may not be able to do it quickly but it is a part of the conversation. Customers specifically request that new systems should be independent from US service providers.
In my view the damage has been done and will not go away even after Trump. The Europeans have realized that their only true allies, that they can trust in terms of critical infrastructure, are other European nations. It used to include America, it no longer does.
[1] https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2025/04/30/europea...
[2] https://nltimes.nl/2025/05/20/microsofts-icc-email-block-tri...
"We cannot leave the security of Europe in the hands of voters in Wisconsin every 4 years" - French Minister Delegate for European Affairs.
Which is what Trump seems to want. A Europe not totally dependent on the American taxpayers for their own self defense and their own global power projection agendas. Many countries like Germany are quite far from that. France is more of a leader in that regard.
Although abandoning commercial American software wholesale would likely degrade their own security and GDPs even further than it already is.
Although abandoning commercial American software wholesale would likely degrade their own security and GDPs even further than it already is.
Defence and power projection is extremely expensive and tech is incredibly work demanding. Is the average EU citizen ready for 15 days PTO and 50-60 hour work weeks?
I don't mean this as a slight, but I genuinely do not think the average European worker, who has at this point spent most of their career in a pretty cushy worker friendly environment, is going to be up for American style death-race productivity. Or the European style death-race productivity of centuries past for that matter.
The average American worker works 500 more hours a year than their German counterpart. That is 62.5 more work days annually. Trying to close that gap will have people rioting. Never mind the cuts to social programs and bumping retirement age to boost defense spending. Double never mind avoiding Russian energy. Europe would need a wholesale societal rewrite, not just a few more bonds issued.
Its much less resistance to stick out 4 years and hope the US gets it's sanity back.
I don't mean this as a slight, but I genuinely do not think the average European worker, who has at this point spent most of their career in a pretty cushy worker friendly environment, is going to be up for American style death-race productivity. Or the European style death-race productivity of centuries past for that matter.
The average American worker works 500 more hours a year than their German counterpart. That is 62.5 more work days annually. Trying to close that gap will have people rioting. Never mind the cuts to social programs and bumping retirement age to boost defense spending. Double never mind avoiding Russian energy. Europe would need a wholesale societal rewrite, not just a few more bonds issued.
Its much less resistance to stick out 4 years and hope the US gets it's sanity back.
Both the Biden and Trump administrations have generally opposed European efforts to reduce reliance on foreign arms - The "Buy European" strategy.
The Trump administration seems to be pursuing a dual strategy: publicly demanding Europe be more self-sufficient while simultaneously trying to ensure U.S. economic and strategic interests are not sidelined in the process. Basically "Pay us more for less". Let's see how the NATO summit goes at the end of this month.
The Trump administration seems to be pursuing a dual strategy: publicly demanding Europe be more self-sufficient while simultaneously trying to ensure U.S. economic and strategic interests are not sidelined in the process. Basically "Pay us more for less". Let's see how the NATO summit goes at the end of this month.
I really don't think Trump has run that line with the US weapons manufacturers.
He got the goal of increasing the EU weapons expenses, and entirely monkey-pawed it.
He got the goal of increasing the EU weapons expenses, and entirely monkey-pawed it.
> Which is what Trump seems to want. A Europe not totally dependent on the American taxpayers for their own self defense and their own global power projection agendas.
If so, good because that's what I want. I want to have "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" as Jefferson said. I consider it a great betrayal of the American people that past governments put us in a position where other nations are depending on us for security. Untangling us from that should be done as gently as possible, but IMO it should be done.
If so, good because that's what I want. I want to have "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" as Jefferson said. I consider it a great betrayal of the American people that past governments put us in a position where other nations are depending on us for security. Untangling us from that should be done as gently as possible, but IMO it should be done.
Maybe of interest to some people given the discussions in this thread: https://sciebo.de is an example of a successful "let's roll our own collaboration infrastructure" project at scale (aimed at about half a million users) based on Nextcloud with Collabora Office (= live document collaboration) and more integrated applications (calendars, contacts, tasks, forms, those kinds of things).
All hosted and maintained at German universities, with federation between them, with support for guest users and whatnot.
Quite nice and back when it started, it was very important for us because it enabled us to get a huge chunk of sensitive data back from Dropbox, Google Drive and the other cloud providers.
There's not too much English documentation around but https://wwuit-sys.zivgitlabpages.uni-muenster.de/sciebo/docs... is good.
All hosted and maintained at German universities, with federation between them, with support for guest users and whatnot.
Quite nice and back when it started, it was very important for us because it enabled us to get a huge chunk of sensitive data back from Dropbox, Google Drive and the other cloud providers.
There's not too much English documentation around but https://wwuit-sys.zivgitlabpages.uni-muenster.de/sciebo/docs... is good.
I am struggling with increasing number of daily (sometimes hourly) annoyances of Windows during my work, distracting me considerably by now, so this news fills me with envy. I have an increasing urge fuelled by this - but not only by this - to switch job/profession.
Some from the top of my head: randomly forcing me to put the window I am moving to the numbered sections of 1-2-3 without the chance of cancel, forcing me to size and position choices mandated; 'update and shut down' actually works as 'update and restart' finding my computer on in the middle of night or in the morning; hibernating while update is available turns on the computer during the night; renaming of OneDrive files clears the name sometimes typing; switching wifi (between previously used ones) on its own, while being in a perfectly working remote desktop connection, breaking it randonly; taskbar buttons loose icons after resuming from hibernation; yes/no message box is transparent through remote desktop; ... some from the past few (less than 4) days.
Some from the top of my head: randomly forcing me to put the window I am moving to the numbered sections of 1-2-3 without the chance of cancel, forcing me to size and position choices mandated; 'update and shut down' actually works as 'update and restart' finding my computer on in the middle of night or in the morning; hibernating while update is available turns on the computer during the night; renaming of OneDrive files clears the name sometimes typing; switching wifi (between previously used ones) on its own, while being in a perfectly working remote desktop connection, breaking it randonly; taskbar buttons loose icons after resuming from hibernation; yes/no message box is transparent through remote desktop; ... some from the past few (less than 4) days.
Please note that only approx 79 employees are affected by this.
The nearby german country Schleswig-Holstein also announced the very same plan. https://www.schleswig-holstein.de/DE/landesregierung/themen/...
Other German countries were long advised to stop using illegal propriety cloud providers, such as Microsoft, also, but continue with it. Despite the privacy violations, risk and cost.
Other German countries were long advised to stop using illegal propriety cloud providers, such as Microsoft, also, but continue with it. Despite the privacy violations, risk and cost.
Does anyone remember Munich Linux project and how Microsoft eventually bribed Munich to drop it?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
Pepperidge Farm erinnert sich
Previous post from 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44234552
As much as I applaud the move away from proprietary software, when it comes to Office, particularly Excel, there are going to be a LOT of custom macros dotted around that will be difficult to replace, particularly when they integrate with other applications via COM. These are usually written with the best intentions by people wanting to be more productive.
LET'S GO DENMARK!!!! LET'S GO!
Have to see it before I believe it. There is already danish laws, from back in the early 00s, stating that open source software should be used or developed in all cases where it is possible. The public IT provider and supporter Statens IT are so bad at their job that I cannot see how they would carry this out.
Might be worth sending them back to college for upgrading.
Until they switch back 3 years from now. And the circus continues.
I hope they do the same in Germany and then invest some into maintenance and features based on the saved licencing fees.
You can only do that if you are able to commit to a plan for more than one legislation.
You can only do that if you are able to commit to a plan for more than one legislation.
The German sovereign tech fund gave gnome 1m Euro a year or so ago, so they do seem to be doingsomething.
How does Linux fit into the eco system that surrounds it?
I have no idea what systems the Danish government uses, but
being a "Microsoft shop" with Exchange, Active directory, Teams etc
is not uncommon.
I hope they will address and fix or have work arounds for all of them.
I feel sorry for the people who work there havin to nmove to LibreOffice. IT is free, and it works, but if you have spent 20 years or more using Microsoft Office, it will feel quite foreign and it is missing a large set of features.
The ministry will slow down considerably for some time while the employees learn how to use LibreOffice in all the ways they are used to.
My experience from a few large companies and government institutions is that a lot of employees do not want to change, or learn a whole different system. Forcing this change upon all is guarateed to create friction.
Much more important than that the change
I hope they will address and fix or have work arounds for all of them.
I feel sorry for the people who work there havin to nmove to LibreOffice. IT is free, and it works, but if you have spent 20 years or more using Microsoft Office, it will feel quite foreign and it is missing a large set of features.
The ministry will slow down considerably for some time while the employees learn how to use LibreOffice in all the ways they are used to.
My experience from a few large companies and government institutions is that a lot of employees do not want to change, or learn a whole different system. Forcing this change upon all is guarateed to create friction.
Much more important than that the change
> if you have spent 20 years or more using Microsoft Office, it will feel quite foreign
I am using MS Office for 30 years, and the current MS Office products feel offensively alien. Slown down in workflow.
Meanwhile, in the past 20 years or so, I was affiliated with organizations (plural) having mixed composition of Win/Mac/Linux support throughout.
I am using MS Office for 30 years, and the current MS Office products feel offensively alien. Slown down in workflow.
Meanwhile, in the past 20 years or so, I was affiliated with organizations (plural) having mixed composition of Win/Mac/Linux support throughout.
This is normally a strategy to negotiate lower prices with microsoft. After awhile things go back to normal.
I think the best way to go about these types of efforts is to:
(1) build a coalition with agreed upon goals, governance, etc.
(2) define the desired systems and architecture for it
(3) define the file formats and wire protocols to support the features/functionality
(4) start building it
There would need to be conferences every 6 or 12 months. There would also need to be lots of documentation, training, videos, podcasts, etc.
It would be a huge effort but possibly also extremely rewarding.
There would need to be conferences every 6 or 12 months. There would also need to be lots of documentation, training, videos, podcasts, etc.
It would be a huge effort but possibly also extremely rewarding.
Many comments here point out the difficulties in replacing the digital infrastructure of a large organisation, but according to the ministry’s website, the ministry is only ten months old: “As a result of the formation of a new government 29th of August 2024 the Ministry of Digital Affairs has been established”.
There probably isn’t any huge or complex infrastructure to replace.
There probably isn’t any huge or complex infrastructure to replace.
As far as I can tell, the announcement was only about replacing Microsoft Office 365 with LibreOffice, not about replacing Windows with Linux.
Hopefully they're using Collabora or similar, so they can get support and to help fund the development.
[deleted]
Honestly, if they manage to make the transition without major problems, it will greatly improve Denmark's sovereignty.
My concern is mostly about the government depending on open source software without contributing in some way. I really hope they fund and/or contribute to both projects.
Another interesting question to consider is whether the likelihood of attacks on these projects will increase. Knowing that government(s) use LibreOffice makes it a much more valuable target for attackers willing to pull of something like xz-utils. Likewise, increasing adoption of Linux for desktop usage could result in more vulnerabilities being discovered and more malware targeting Linux desktops.
I think there's a lot to see in the near future...
My concern is mostly about the government depending on open source software without contributing in some way. I really hope they fund and/or contribute to both projects.
Another interesting question to consider is whether the likelihood of attacks on these projects will increase. Knowing that government(s) use LibreOffice makes it a much more valuable target for attackers willing to pull of something like xz-utils. Likewise, increasing adoption of Linux for desktop usage could result in more vulnerabilities being discovered and more malware targeting Linux desktops.
I think there's a lot to see in the near future...
I like cryptpad for shared documents... but it bugs with big files.
Does the Danish govt fund these open source projects at all?
They're surely going to be using SuSe, right?
Gosh. Is Linux now ready for the desktop?
KDE + any rolling distro is miles ahead of Windows. So, as a user of both, I read your question with a smirk.
If you would ask if LibreOffice is ready, I would say: yes and no. The UX of LO is worse than MS Office. LO is more feature rich in certain areas but it lacks the UX if you want to get a well-looking document with a minimum amount of work. Case in point: lack of acceptable Impress templates (they look from the year 1994), lack of document themes in Writer, lack of quick table style in Calc.
The UX/UI is in dire need for attention.
If you would ask if LibreOffice is ready, I would say: yes and no. The UX of LO is worse than MS Office. LO is more feature rich in certain areas but it lacks the UX if you want to get a well-looking document with a minimum amount of work. Case in point: lack of acceptable Impress templates (they look from the year 1994), lack of document themes in Writer, lack of quick table style in Calc.
The UX/UI is in dire need for attention.
I've stopped recommending LibreOffice to anyone after I found out about OnlyOffice, its UI/UX is much better and I've personally been using it without running into any issues or limitations. I'm not a super big power user so I don't know if it lacks features that professionals need, but it's been perfect in my case
I've been using KDE for years now, I've recently put CachyOS with KDE on the new personal machine I just built and I've not been so impressed with a distro in ages. It's rock solid, minimal faff, very fast, and having got back into PC gaming after a long hiatus the playability of Windows games on Linux is amazing now. Even has a really good looking system theme (in my opinion).
I definitely agree LO and particularly its terribly dated UI is a greater barrier to desktop Linux adoption than the desktop environment itself.
I definitely agree LO and particularly its terribly dated UI is a greater barrier to desktop Linux adoption than the desktop environment itself.
Have you tried any of the alternate UIs LibreOffice has such as the ribbon?
I agree that the UI/UX of libreofice is not the prettiest...but its fine for what i need it for: regular work-related document management, word processing sorts of tasks. But my partner? They LOVE libreoffice specifically BECAUSE its looks like older versions of MS Word! Their needs are basic and are easily met with the functionality of libreoffice and onlyoffice...but they prefer libreoffice especially for the look-and-feel. Caveat: we are of a particularly advanced age, hence we recall many decades of the different versions of MS Office and its app offerings. ;-)
I'd say Writer is miles ahead from Word. To start with, it works and won't mangle your entire document because you added a line-break some place it didn't like.
But also, office suites are becoming anachronistic very quickly. Every time you use one nowadays, it's a symptom of some organization failure. (Ok, there are a few reasonable use cases for spreadsheets.) So the entire question is kinda of moot.
But also, office suites are becoming anachronistic very quickly. Every time you use one nowadays, it's a symptom of some organization failure. (Ok, there are a few reasonable use cases for spreadsheets.) So the entire question is kinda of moot.
> office suites are becoming anachronistic very quickly.
I hope you did not mean online offerings as an alternative?
In the tech world we are used to compile documents from plain text. But outside I don't see that. I see legal deeply entrenched into Word, with a bunch of macros. It looks masochistic to me, but I guess that is a matter of being entrenched.
I hope you did not mean online offerings as an alternative?
In the tech world we are used to compile documents from plain text. But outside I don't see that. I see legal deeply entrenched into Word, with a bunch of macros. It looks masochistic to me, but I guess that is a matter of being entrenched.
Online office suites are office suites.
If legal is deeply entrenched into Word, it means your company has a problem with legal. Complex rich text is really not an adequate format for legal documents, they should really be generating HTML through some system.
(When legal is deep into Word, there is almost always somebody that takes their results and turn them into HTML or PDF. The later group has 2 problems.)
If legal is deeply entrenched into Word, it means your company has a problem with legal. Complex rich text is really not an adequate format for legal documents, they should really be generating HTML through some system.
(When legal is deep into Word, there is almost always somebody that takes their results and turn them into HTML or PDF. The later group has 2 problems.)
Changing infrastructure and software packages should not fail due to a missing or bad office template. Surely this can be made from scratch to suit the gov org and current standards/legislation within one work month by any skilled consultant.
There are challenges yes, an office template should not be on the top list.
Maybe I'm totally wrong...
Step in the shoes of an average user. You have to create a good looking document. As usual, there is time pressure. You would have no idea where to look online for templates, let alone create it from scratch (master page, huh, what?). In powerpoint or word, just pick one template or theme and it looks slick.
Even when you import a template in Impress, you will find some weird bugs, like a slide insisting that it won't show the slide number. I found such random weird behavior that I wouldn't even know how to file a bug report for it, because they are impossible to reproduce.
----------------------------------------------
I know the stuff is built on top of some very ancient code. Sometimes I wish they would throw it all away and start from scratch in a modern managed, type safe language. It would be feasible if you forego backwards compatibility as I suppose a lot of the bugs have to do with trying to support the MS Office bugs. A consistent finding is that LO supports older office documents better than MS office itself.
Even when you import a template in Impress, you will find some weird bugs, like a slide insisting that it won't show the slide number. I found such random weird behavior that I wouldn't even know how to file a bug report for it, because they are impossible to reproduce.
----------------------------------------------
I know the stuff is built on top of some very ancient code. Sometimes I wish they would throw it all away and start from scratch in a modern managed, type safe language. It would be feasible if you forego backwards compatibility as I suppose a lot of the bugs have to do with trying to support the MS Office bugs. A consistent finding is that LO supports older office documents better than MS office itself.
> You have to create a good looking document.
Then any office product is horrible. I'm using emacs with markdown, and convert them to tex, pdf, blog posts automatically.
Tables look better. Images look better. Everything's looks better. And it's 10x easier to work with.
Then any office product is horrible. I'm using emacs with markdown, and convert them to tex, pdf, blog posts automatically.
Tables look better. Images look better. Everything's looks better. And it's 10x easier to work with.
Hey, you don't have to kill the average user!
I am sure your latex or custom pipeline produces better quality indeed. There has always been a gap between word processors and typesetting applications like Scribus and Indesign.
I am sure your latex or custom pipeline produces better quality indeed. There has always been a gap between word processors and typesetting applications like Scribus and Indesign.
…unless you work all day in Excel, which many do.
There is no reasonable substitute or replacement for Excel.
There should be, but there isn’t.
There is no reasonable substitute or replacement for Excel.
There should be, but there isn’t.
Probably true if you’re an advanced user using a machine with American language pack.
Personally, I stick with LibreOffice. The biggest win? It doesn’t aggressively mangle my data by assuming everything is a U.S. date that needs “fixing.”
And don’t get me started on how Excel insists that, just because my employer gave me a Norwegian-language Mac, every formula should now be written in some half-baked, poorly documented pseudo-Norwegian formula language.
The one tool I do miss? Outlook.
Personally, I stick with LibreOffice. The biggest win? It doesn’t aggressively mangle my data by assuming everything is a U.S. date that needs “fixing.”
And don’t get me started on how Excel insists that, just because my employer gave me a Norwegian-language Mac, every formula should now be written in some half-baked, poorly documented pseudo-Norwegian formula language.
The one tool I do miss? Outlook.
Just set your preferred UI language to English in System Settings - Language and Region and Excel will honor that
There's probably some similar system setting for the date format
There's probably some similar system setting for the date format
> Just set your preferred UI language to English in System Settings – Language and Region and Excel will honor that
That might work - assuming IT policies don’t block it - but it could easily break a bunch of other things on my machine.
> There's probably a similar system setting for the date format
Maybe. But I’ve been a power user for 30 years (counting from my first full Windows restore), and I taught my first IT course in the late ’90s - so if there is an easy fix, I’m honestly kind of impressed with my own ability to miss it.
That might work - assuming IT policies don’t block it - but it could easily break a bunch of other things on my machine.
> There's probably a similar system setting for the date format
Maybe. But I’ve been a power user for 30 years (counting from my first full Windows restore), and I taught my first IT course in the late ’90s - so if there is an easy fix, I’m honestly kind of impressed with my own ability to miss it.
I commented elsewhere on the thread about this, and while I agree with the way you're framing this, I think there is a reasonable substitute for Excel for the vast majority of users. But I think there are power users that use the long tail of features, and for them, there is going to be no replacement. But I use spreadsheets as part of my job and personal life, and I've been using Google Sheets and Libre/OnlyOffice for years and years, and haven't touched Excel in more than 20 years.
But you gated your comment to those that work all day in Excel, and of course for those users, they're going to be needing Excel.
But you gated your comment to those that work all day in Excel, and of course for those users, they're going to be needing Excel.
Agree, LibreOffice at minimum need to implement the same alt-key ribbon shortcuts.
As those are not available in macOS Excel without 3rd party hacks, LO would actually beat MSO at something :)
As those are not available in macOS Excel without 3rd party hacks, LO would actually beat MSO at something :)
I saw KDE a couple of years ago and it was not much better than KDE in 2005. It was visually more impressive, sure.
But what has really happened in the last 2-4 years to make it miles ahead of Windows?
But what has really happened in the last 2-4 years to make it miles ahead of Windows?
Windows is only getting worse because of all the bloat like ads, telemetry, react ui, frequent updates (needs to restart like every other day), recall and so on. Software from 20 years ago feels snappier, even though they didn't add anything new.
Windows got worse
Windows jumped back multiple miles.
I went through university only using Ubuntu like 15 years ago... It's been ready a very long time.
You're probably joking but it has been for a long time.
I switched from a Macbook Pro M2 Max to a Fedora Silverblue-based Framework 16 and have been very happy with it for development & sysadmin work.
Wayland is also in quite a good place compared to just a few years ago. Stuff like HDR, VRR, High-Refresh Rates, DisplayPort 2.1 and so on just works.
Flatpak is also great and works really well with many apps when they support XDG Portals properly.
Wayland is also in quite a good place compared to just a few years ago. Stuff like HDR, VRR, High-Refresh Rates, DisplayPort 2.1 and so on just works.
Flatpak is also great and works really well with many apps when they support XDG Portals properly.
Linux is better than windows nowadays as an OS to work on (also for non programming stuff), imo. Even the enterprise versions of windows are full of crap. For non-enterprise versions (home and pro) I really don't understand how people can put up with MS's total crap like installing candy crash and a ton of bloatware after each major update.
The problem with Linux is the software ecosystem around it, esp security software, office suits, and tons of various specialised software that often target only windows, or at best also macos. But there has been a lot of improvement to that direction last years. I really hope linux takes over work desktop environments, the degree of slop that MS puts into windows is getting more and more over the years. In linux it is infinitely easier to get a machine do what you want once you get to understand some basics wrt how to configure stuff (and now with llms is much less steep curve to get relevant info). In windows you have to constantly dance around whatever horrible UX each version brings upon you.
The problem with Linux is the software ecosystem around it, esp security software, office suits, and tons of various specialised software that often target only windows, or at best also macos. But there has been a lot of improvement to that direction last years. I really hope linux takes over work desktop environments, the degree of slop that MS puts into windows is getting more and more over the years. In linux it is infinitely easier to get a machine do what you want once you get to understand some basics wrt how to configure stuff (and now with llms is much less steep curve to get relevant info). In windows you have to constantly dance around whatever horrible UX each version brings upon you.
Has Linux... won?
Any year now...
lots of the comments on here focus on the, A isn't as good as B or the cost will be too great, the primary reason at least imo this has come is due to Trump and his focus on Greenland(https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/07/greenland-sp...). The supermarkets here have stars on items to show they are not from the USA(https://www.fastcompany.com/91296407/danish-grocery-stores-h...), their is a concerted effort to detangle Denmark from the USA and I see this as a growing trend across EU.
<yawn> Kitchen-sink office suites are dinosaurs. It's like switching from riding an ankylosaurus to riding a glyptodont. Personal computing was and is a tarpit. It was and is used to automate and complicate paper-style processes. Every time I have to fill out a PDF form, I want to scream! <grimace>. Big fat slow 90's-style document-oriented processes have got to go!
What, again?
I'm honestly jealous.
[deleted]
[deleted]
For any of their finance or planning people using Excel as a daily driver, the productivity lost will far outweigh any financial or ethical gains.
We’re also at the cusp of AI getting added throughout MS Office and Windows which will be the next driver of productivity and collaboration, and it’ll be at least a decade before Libreoffice catches up.
Saying this as a believer in open source and with no great love for M$. It’s just not 1997 any more.
We’re also at the cusp of AI getting added throughout MS Office and Windows which will be the next driver of productivity and collaboration, and it’ll be at least a decade before Libreoffice catches up.
Saying this as a believer in open source and with no great love for M$. It’s just not 1997 any more.
Are these Linux machines going to authenticate against the Azure Active Directory, maybe just a local Active Directory, or are the IT department going to run a separate service in parallel? Are they moving away from Exchange Server... probably not, given that it's half of the staff. Are they using Intune, if so what's the replacement strategy where?
My guess is that many of these staff members are going to use webmail and run Windows programs in remote desktop. The investments in the infrastructure isn't high enough, nor have they addressed any of the hard problems and the time frame is rather short. I doubt any significant money and time has been set aside for training.
It is going to end in complete failure, the employees are going to complain about lost productivity and a frustrating work environment. They are setting themselves up for complete failure.
The same is happening in a number of schools, where Linux and LibreOffice is set to replace ChromeBooks for some students. The expectation is that the cost is going to be €2.25M per year, for the next two years, then there will be a cost saving of €4-5M. Again no plans for handling authentication, email, file sharing or provisioning. They'll just force the students out of the relatively protected Google Workspace for Students, into the "real" Google/Gmail ecosystems where they are less protected against data mining.
This will all end badly and it will be because of poor planning. Then the next US president steps in, calms things down and we forget the whole thing in 2 years.