Let Kids Be Loud(afterbabel.com)
afterbabel.com
Let Kids Be Loud
https://www.afterbabel.com/p/let-kids-be-loud
194 comments
I agree, but with a caveat about ice cream trucks specifically. If they park in one spot and play the same jingle very loudly for hours on end (say, three to four hours in one location outside of your home), it is in fact insanely maddening.
The UK has rules about this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-practice-...
Among other things, playing the jingle in the same place repeatedly is prohibited.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-practice-...
Among other things, playing the jingle in the same place repeatedly is prohibited.
Have you heard the ice cream trucks with a random "Hello?" thrown into songs? I don't understand the purpose. Googling brought up some people saying it goes back to the 90s, or that it's specifically a Southern California thing. Strangely enough the movie A Different Man (2024) played that exact sound during an emotional scene. That movie takes place in NYC.
Definitely a thing in NYC—had an ice cream truck that would sit down the block from my place playing music all day long and many years later that "hello" is like nails on a chalkboard.
I wonder what the copyright licensing is on Frank Mills Music Box Dancer which is quite common on the icecream trucks here
Based on the images and knock-off ice cream bars I've seen, ice cream trucks seem to treat copyright as a suggestion
I hear the Hello from our local ice cream trucks in Illinois, so not just a California thing.
It's for vibes basically. I thought it was hilarious when I was younger
I may be more sound sensitive than most, but if I could hear it loudly for even 5-10 minutes I'd be annoyed. 3-4 hours? While I'm at home? Absolutely no way; I'd complain too.
In the UK stationary ice cream trucks don't play music, only those travelling around, so you hear it for a couple of minutes at most as it winds around the neighborhood. I'd also be complaining if it was going on for hours :-)
At my old house, we had the best ice cream truck. Rather than playing music, it just had like a train bell. Sounded like the ice cream engine was rolling through. Ding.... ding .... ding ....
That is a vast improvement.
for the entire time the ice cream truck is stopped, it's engine is still running and generating toxic fumes. Had one parking strategically right next to a playground.
TBH a lot of it is also a cultural shift toward being selfish. You notice it here in the comments as well.
Combined with "karen" culture, people are more empowered than ever to complain about things. They forget that when they were kids, they'd be loud, play in their neighborhood, and get up to no good :)
It's a real shame, this mentality is what's moved us away from a feeling of community.
Combined with "karen" culture, people are more empowered than ever to complain about things. They forget that when they were kids, they'd be loud, play in their neighborhood, and get up to no good :)
It's a real shame, this mentality is what's moved us away from a feeling of community.
Complaining about an ice cream truck you can hear in the back of your house while wearing noise cancelling headphones isn’t Karen culture.
It absolutely is. Gettin an ice cream truck banned from your neighborhood because you heard it drive by is the epitome of Karen behavior.
Blasting sound out of your vehicle into a residential area for hours just because you want to sell something is selfish.
So is defending the behavior and imposing it on everyone around you just because it's sometimes convenient for you to walk 10 meters for some ice cream once a month.
Like TFA says, we have to decide as a society what kind of noise we think is worthwhile. The sound of kids playing seems essential for a culture to stay friendly to family development.
But broadcasting an advertisement jingle to neighborhoods because you want to make money, perhaps not.
So is defending the behavior and imposing it on everyone around you just because it's sometimes convenient for you to walk 10 meters for some ice cream once a month.
Like TFA says, we have to decide as a society what kind of noise we think is worthwhile. The sound of kids playing seems essential for a culture to stay friendly to family development.
But broadcasting an advertisement jingle to neighborhoods because you want to make money, perhaps not.
You are focusing on the driver, but what about the patrons. Is one selfish person listening to sound for a minute enough to to prevent 10 kids from being happy? 100? 1000?
So what about the sound of your car going by my house every morning? That's really the irony, everyone is complaining about all sorts of noise, but the worst noise in urban environments, the constant traffic & car noise, is somehow sacrosanct.
No, doing so is the equivalent of using Adblocker.
Isolating yourself from the sound via one of various available methods would be analogous to using Adblock.
Parent is perfectly right.
> cultural shift toward being selfish
I enjoy ice cream so damn all other opinions :)
> cultural shift toward being selfish
I enjoy ice cream so damn all other opinions :)
It completely is. If you're talking about one parked for dozens of minutes or hours, sure, worth getting annoyed, but if you, living in an urban environment, can't handle a few minutes of some random noise from someone just trying to get their economic sustenance while making a few of your neighbor's kids happy for a bit, you're the problem. The funny thing is how many people try to justify their specific unreasonable intolerance as something completely okay to impose on others with complaints.
Yes it is. No Karen thinks she deserves the title... even tho she does.
Sometimes it's also just the individuals.
We have a small playground here and for a number of years there were exactly 3 people being loud and obnoxious. One mom and her two sons. None of the other kids ever bothered me. :P
We have a small playground here and for a number of years there were exactly 3 people being loud and obnoxious. One mom and her two sons. None of the other kids ever bothered me. :P
I'm not sure about this being a new thing. I also think we've gone too far with the anti-karen whiplash and think everything before that was trendy was perfect. When I was a kid that got up to no good or was just being annoyingly loud, I would hear about it. There's always been an acceptable loud, like kids running around and playfully being loud at a park or playground. Going to the same playground with a loud stereo is not the same thing. You're clearly up to no good as a teen smoking and hanging with your friends. You make it sound like kinds "back in the day" never got into trouble. I can assure you, I, er we, absolutely got in trouble for getting up to no good.
There's a difference between the neighbor (whom you've almost certainly met) stepping out and saying "hey stop that" or "keep it down", and karen calling the cops. That's the new thing - this insane insistence that children must be kept hidden, and that the authorities must be involved if they are playing in designated play areas, or walking around the block unsupervised, or (heaven forbid) being loud during reasonable daylight hours.
Certainly, there were plenty of "dude, really?" moments when kids would go over on limits. It is hard not to think we haven't pushed the limits down to zero, though.
Granted, using smoking as an example is hilarious to me. I confess near zero sympathy for that going away. If anything, I'm pretty sure I'm more dumbfounded that people still smoke in any real numbers.
Granted, using smoking as an example is hilarious to me. I confess near zero sympathy for that going away. If anything, I'm pretty sure I'm more dumbfounded that people still smoke in any real numbers.
Former/recovering smoker. I hear this sentiment a lot (“Why would anyone ever smoke? It’s just dumbfounding”). I can tell you the reason people smoke is because it feels fucking great. It’s a terrible, terrible habit and the number of smokers of any drug should be zero, but I’m not going to lie to you and tell you it wasn’t relaxing and enjoyable.
Oh, I know that that must be the case for a lot of folks. The movie Trainspotting did a pretty good job communicating some of that.
The surprise on my end is usually that new people smoke. Anyone that had already developed the habit, I am not surprised still does it. In that regard, it is not unlike any other drug.
I also realize I should count myself incredibly lucky that smoking does not impact me at all. I literally feel nothing when I try a smoke or cigar. Can barely even taste it. Reminds me of my grandfather who used to smoke to be social. When he found out they were bad for you, he just stopped. Had no withdrawal at all. Yay genetics. :D
The surprise on my end is usually that new people smoke. Anyone that had already developed the habit, I am not surprised still does it. In that regard, it is not unlike any other drug.
I also realize I should count myself incredibly lucky that smoking does not impact me at all. I literally feel nothing when I try a smoke or cigar. Can barely even taste it. Reminds me of my grandfather who used to smoke to be social. When he found out they were bad for you, he just stopped. Had no withdrawal at all. Yay genetics. :D
Second this. It's not like us smokers, or at least most of us, are sitting there hating every minute and aspect of having a smoke but unable to stop. We maybe can't stop, sure, but it's also just wonderful while we're doing it.
I've found that I wanted to smoke long after I stopped enjoying smoking.
Dealing with the worst (or is it maybe best?) of both worlds still. I both want to smoke and enjoy it too damn much, even though a little background alarm in my inner brain blares for much of the day reminding me that this is a potential death sentence I just keep playing with so much..
What do you like about smoking? My favorite part was getting to stand outside alone for 5 fucking minutes.
Check out Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking, if you're interested. It helped me think a lot more about what I was doing and feeling, and turned out to be useful in a bunch of other areas in my life. I found the audiobook ripped from cassettes as a torrent.
Check out Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking, if you're interested. It helped me think a lot more about what I was doing and feeling, and turned out to be useful in a bunch of other areas in my life. I found the audiobook ripped from cassettes as a torrent.
It's the same thing as why would any shoot a spike into their veins to get high on heroin. The lack of empathy for an addict is telling. The indignity of a righteous ex is insufferable. How someone became an addict is not necessarily relevant, but once they're hooked quitting is not so simple as those unable to empathize while on high horses want to think.
It is however annoying when the addict does their thing in public with zero fucks to give for anyone else around them.
It is however annoying when the addict does their thing in public with zero fucks to give for anyone else around them.
Ice cream trucks are specifically obnoxious especially in a neighborhood or a park. I would also complain. They would fit in fine at a carnival or similar.
I've always found it odd that most people would complain if someone sprayed water all over them, but are surprised when people complain the same way about obnoxious noise.
I do live next to an elementary school and enjoy listening to the children playing. Like the article says, that's a natural, even joyful, sound.
I've always found it odd that most people would complain if someone sprayed water all over them, but are surprised when people complain the same way about obnoxious noise.
I do live next to an elementary school and enjoy listening to the children playing. Like the article says, that's a natural, even joyful, sound.
I agree; I wondered how HN would manage to make the article controversial, and this was the answer, equating the sound of playing children with the sound of intrusive commercial marketing aimed at children.
Ice cream trucks are a weaponized guilty trip against parents. The kids whine and complain about wanting ice cream and I'm already having a hard enough time modeling good food habits for them. If it were once a month I wouldn't mind, but it's been every day for the last month. Like, dude, nobody needs ice cream that much. Please stop starting an argument in my house.
Incidentally, we just replaced all the windows in our house, and now the kids can't hear the ice cream truck coming, so chalk up one disproportionately expensive W, please.
Incidentally, we just replaced all the windows in our house, and now the kids can't hear the ice cream truck coming, so chalk up one disproportionately expensive W, please.
100% this. I tell the kids it's a trick and they seem to like it and point out when the trick-truck is back. Works great at checkout as well with the trick shelves.
I love this and will be stealing it to use with my kids
What? If you can't tell your kids no without feeling guilty, it actually sounds like you need more places to tell your kids no? If they are whining about it, set the expectation that whining and not accepting a no is, itself, unacceptable?
This one is an odd area where I would think budgeting would be a good lesson. Set a budget aside for how much they can spend per day and per month on ice cream. If they have the funds, they can get it. If not, make it clear on when they exhausted their budget. In this regard, it should not be an open question on whether or not they can get something. And any "no" will be a direct result of something they have control over.
This one is an odd area where I would think budgeting would be a good lesson. Set a budget aside for how much they can spend per day and per month on ice cream. If they have the funds, they can get it. If not, make it clear on when they exhausted their budget. In this regard, it should not be an open question on whether or not they can get something. And any "no" will be a direct result of something they have control over.
There are a huge number of parents who just don't want to parent their children at all. You see it on HN constantly. "We have to ban cell phones for all kids because I don't want to tell little Johnny he can't have one when his friends all do! That's hard!"
Instead, how about you just not assume you can tell what is going on in someone's house based off of your obviously limited experience with children and one post on an internet message board.
I really don't appreciate your reply. It comes off as assuming that I'm basically an idiot. "Oh, just tell the children no!" Yeah, that doesn't really work when you have highly intelligent children you've been raising to be rational, thinking agents. They may not be developed enough to value long-term health issues over short-term pleasure gains yet, but they certainly are skeptical enough to call out fiat answers as bullshit. I'm actually rather proud my children argue with me so much, despite how exhausting it can be.
Hence me targeting my ire at the damn ice cream truck. It's not my children's fault they want ice cream (they are children) or that they are elementary school lawyers (I have certainly encouraged it, much to my in-laws' ire). It is the ice cream truck operator's fault for employing marketing tactics aimed directly at children. I keep my children off of cable TV and pay for streaming subscriptions to keep them away from completely unadulterated junk until they have brains developed enough to see through it, but this guy injects it out of my control.
I really don't appreciate your reply. It comes off as assuming that I'm basically an idiot. "Oh, just tell the children no!" Yeah, that doesn't really work when you have highly intelligent children you've been raising to be rational, thinking agents. They may not be developed enough to value long-term health issues over short-term pleasure gains yet, but they certainly are skeptical enough to call out fiat answers as bullshit. I'm actually rather proud my children argue with me so much, despite how exhausting it can be.
Hence me targeting my ire at the damn ice cream truck. It's not my children's fault they want ice cream (they are children) or that they are elementary school lawyers (I have certainly encouraged it, much to my in-laws' ire). It is the ice cream truck operator's fault for employing marketing tactics aimed directly at children. I keep my children off of cable TV and pay for streaming subscriptions to keep them away from completely unadulterated junk until they have brains developed enough to see through it, but this guy injects it out of my control.
I'm sympathetic. Apologetic, even. I can sadly see an easy way to read the tone of my reply as overly condescending. But, to counter with the assumption that I have limited experience with kids is not helping the discourse.
It was specifically the use of the words "guilty" and "whining" that struck me as wrong there. I could see wanting to avoid seeing disappointment. But I don't consider that guilt. And I'm pretty strict on my kids when they start whining.
It was specifically the use of the words "guilty" and "whining" that struck me as wrong there. I could see wanting to avoid seeing disappointment. But I don't consider that guilt. And I'm pretty strict on my kids when they start whining.
Oh man, I've got young kids and there are so many battles. I don't need more battles, please. Especially artificial battles purposefully created by intrusive marketing jerks.
Don't make it a battle, is my point? Give them something they can control, if that helps. But, if they can't take a "no" then that is a problem. And not one to be fixed by just avoiding it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for avoiding unnecessary conflict. And a lot of conflict avoidance with kids is to not let them turn it into a conflict. You said no, you didn't start a fight.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for avoiding unnecessary conflict. And a lot of conflict avoidance with kids is to not let them turn it into a conflict. You said no, you didn't start a fight.
Call it a battle, call it just saying no. Either way, it's a jerk blasting music in a place they shouldn't. Disturbing peace and quiet, and forcing parents deal with yet another thing when they just want to take their kids to the park.
My kids are 2,3, and 4. No works just fine for now, and we are laying the foundations for budgeting.
My kids are 2,3, and 4. No works just fine for now, and we are laying the foundations for budgeting.
It's not even good music.
Not even Doom music!
Not even Doom music!
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Presumably, the problem was the truck music, not the ice cream sales. There's a market opening for a travelling ice cream seller who doesn't play loud, obloxously noise on loop after 7pm.
Our local ice cream truck plays a very annoying jingle, coupled with a woman's voice saying "Hello?" in an obnoxious way. I haven't complained, because I'm not that kind of asshole, but something about that voice clip feels like stubbing my toe over and over again.
If it were a regular jingle, I'd have no problem. Perhaps one that could be turned down so you don't hear it from halfway across town.
If it were a regular jingle, I'd have no problem. Perhaps one that could be turned down so you don't hear it from halfway across town.
Was it this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_BF88VYRvE
The "hello" is bizarre. It's like something a weapon AI from Metal Gear Solid would do to flush out its enemy.
The tune is also weird. It's not a recognizable folk or children's tune, and it sounds vaguely Japanese, like background music from a Sega Pico game.
If I heard an ice cream truck playing this come down my street, I'd think I was in an episode of Black Mirror, or some sort of analog-horror scenario. I'd do my best to find a good hiding place and avoid being seen. (Maybe crouch in a cardboard box?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_BF88VYRvE
The "hello" is bizarre. It's like something a weapon AI from Metal Gear Solid would do to flush out its enemy.
The tune is also weird. It's not a recognizable folk or children's tune, and it sounds vaguely Japanese, like background music from a Sega Pico game.
If I heard an ice cream truck playing this come down my street, I'd think I was in an episode of Black Mirror, or some sort of analog-horror scenario. I'd do my best to find a good hiding place and avoid being seen. (Maybe crouch in a cardboard box?)
I found the tune I linked to. It is, in fact, Japanese in origin: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KpT9mHF7xfE
Fuck me, that's it.
Someone else involved in the conversation suggested they could announce their times and locations on Facebook, which I thought was a good idea, but I guess it conflicts with their preference to not have a fixed schedule. They just drive round till they make enough money and then go home when they're bored.
Or just play the jingle on the half hour like church bells
Can we trade? I live near a park and many days I hear the truck driving around the block literally for hours, and they just play one song.
I'm all for kid noises because it's good for them but ice cream truck, church bells... should definitely be gone.
Funny, we have the opposite problem. Ice cream trucks in my area have become way too aggressive. I would give anything to ban them from our neighborhood, as they come through within the first hour after school getting out, causing daily arguments in houses with children. Sometimes more than once a day.
Look, even if I wanted to give my kids ice cream every day after school, I am at home and would just get it from the freezer. Even if I say yes to ice cream today, it’s another exhausting round of “why can’t we get ice cream” tomorrow.
At the park yesterday, two trucks were making the rounds. Meaning every 15 minutes, there was an argument. I overheard multiple exhausted parents saying things like “because I already got you ice cream!”
> church bells, kids playing football, carol singers, or ice cream trucks
One of these things is not like the other. Some people like carol singers. Who likes Turkey In The Straw blared through a cheap speaker on loop?
Look, even if I wanted to give my kids ice cream every day after school, I am at home and would just get it from the freezer. Even if I say yes to ice cream today, it’s another exhausting round of “why can’t we get ice cream” tomorrow.
At the park yesterday, two trucks were making the rounds. Meaning every 15 minutes, there was an argument. I overheard multiple exhausted parents saying things like “because I already got you ice cream!”
> church bells, kids playing football, carol singers, or ice cream trucks
One of these things is not like the other. Some people like carol singers. Who likes Turkey In The Straw blared through a cheap speaker on loop?
Or these parents could, you know, learn to create limits and rules for their kids and teach them to respect those, instead of blaming the ice cream truck that spends a few minutes outside at a good time for sales because the parents can't get a grip on something so minor. That guy is trying to make a living, and the inconvenience is tiny for any one area where he spends barely any time.
A lot of the so-called Karen culture is like this I think: people who can't manage their own internal issues trying to outsource the solution to them by imposing demands on others just trying to live their own lives..
A lot of the so-called Karen culture is like this I think: people who can't manage their own internal issues trying to outsource the solution to them by imposing demands on others just trying to live their own lives..
Spoken like someone who either doesn’t have kids, or at least has easier ones than mine. You think you’re just going to explain to a four year old the rules about ice cream and they’ll just be like “you’re right daddy. I forgot we had ice cream from the truck yesterday. I’ll grab some carrot sticks instead”?
It’s not really ethical to market that aggressively to kids, because kids just want. All the time they want. Most people here were children themselves once, or at least know people who have been children. If kids had the credit card, they’d spend everything on Pokémon cards and candy.
Here’s a better question before you call me a Karen: given that most people have freezers, who exactly benefits from daily ice cream truck visits? Not the parents, for reasons above. The kids find it frustrating too. The fact that they had ice cream yesterday usually doesn’t ease their disappointment.
It’s not really ethical to market that aggressively to kids, because kids just want. All the time they want. Most people here were children themselves once, or at least know people who have been children. If kids had the credit card, they’d spend everything on Pokémon cards and candy.
Here’s a better question before you call me a Karen: given that most people have freezers, who exactly benefits from daily ice cream truck visits? Not the parents, for reasons above. The kids find it frustrating too. The fact that they had ice cream yesterday usually doesn’t ease their disappointment.
> You think you’re just going to explain to a four year old the rules about ice cream and they’ll just be like “you’re right daddy. I forgot we had ice cream from the truck yesterday. I’ll grab some carrot sticks instead”?
If provided with consistency, yes that's exactly what happens. I've raised three kids who have not had repeated meltdowns over hearing an ice cream truck.
If provided with consistency, yes that's exactly what happens. I've raised three kids who have not had repeated meltdowns over hearing an ice cream truck.
> I've raised three kids who have not had repeated meltdowns
Mazel tov. Unfortunately for parents who aren't you, the act of providing the "consistency" you're advocating for, often DOES require dealing with repeated meltdowns, or even just maddeningly repetitive questions of "why not". Children are born wild animals (not yours, of course), and raising them is the act of civilizing them.
If there's one thing that annoys me about other parents, its seeing or hearing about someone dealing with a difficulty that your kids didn't have, and then patting yourself on the back for being a better parent. Every time you explain something to your kids, they just got it and stopped bothering you about it? Trust me when I say, you are in the minority.
> meltdowns over hearing an ice cream truck
I know for a fact, it just wasn't an issue when I was a kid, or even in our neighborhood until this year, when the trucks started parking on our street after school. For many children, that is a time of the day when they are exhausted and unlikely to be reasoned with. Maybe it's a sign their parents are "inconsistent" or whatever, but I maintain that there is a difference between a truck stopping by once every hour or 4-5 times per hour, and also a difference between an ice cream truck at the park vs stopping on residential streets one by one every day. There's no other business that works this way, it's not like they have some fundamental right, and that's not even talking about the noise pollution aspect.
Mazel tov. Unfortunately for parents who aren't you, the act of providing the "consistency" you're advocating for, often DOES require dealing with repeated meltdowns, or even just maddeningly repetitive questions of "why not". Children are born wild animals (not yours, of course), and raising them is the act of civilizing them.
If there's one thing that annoys me about other parents, its seeing or hearing about someone dealing with a difficulty that your kids didn't have, and then patting yourself on the back for being a better parent. Every time you explain something to your kids, they just got it and stopped bothering you about it? Trust me when I say, you are in the minority.
> meltdowns over hearing an ice cream truck
I know for a fact, it just wasn't an issue when I was a kid, or even in our neighborhood until this year, when the trucks started parking on our street after school. For many children, that is a time of the day when they are exhausted and unlikely to be reasoned with. Maybe it's a sign their parents are "inconsistent" or whatever, but I maintain that there is a difference between a truck stopping by once every hour or 4-5 times per hour, and also a difference between an ice cream truck at the park vs stopping on residential streets one by one every day. There's no other business that works this way, it's not like they have some fundamental right, and that's not even talking about the noise pollution aspect.
These "maddeningly repetitive questions" are exactly the internal issues that are being talked about. If they ask "why not" just let them ask.
It's not your job as a parent to 1) make sure your children are happy all the time 2) defend your decisions against all attacks.
I found that when children say "why not" repeatedly, they are actually saying "I am unhappy and want to find an argument to reconsider your stance". If you signal them that this is actually something to argue about, e.g. by repeatedly answering these questions, they will just play the game you are offering them.
I found that it's actually a good approach to only directly answer "why not" the first time, and to just answer it the second time by "I understand that you are unhappy about my decision. I have already explained it and will not explain it again. If you need help dealing with your unhappiness I will be there for you."
A lot of the maddening part of these questions is most often the parent not being able to deal with the unhappiness of the child. Once you accept that unhappiness is a natural part of life 1) this will be easier for you 2) you will model much better for your child how to deal with unhappiness.
It's not your job as a parent to 1) make sure your children are happy all the time 2) defend your decisions against all attacks.
I found that when children say "why not" repeatedly, they are actually saying "I am unhappy and want to find an argument to reconsider your stance". If you signal them that this is actually something to argue about, e.g. by repeatedly answering these questions, they will just play the game you are offering them.
I found that it's actually a good approach to only directly answer "why not" the first time, and to just answer it the second time by "I understand that you are unhappy about my decision. I have already explained it and will not explain it again. If you need help dealing with your unhappiness I will be there for you."
A lot of the maddening part of these questions is most often the parent not being able to deal with the unhappiness of the child. Once you accept that unhappiness is a natural part of life 1) this will be easier for you 2) you will model much better for your child how to deal with unhappiness.
>Spoken like someone who either doesn’t have kids, or at least has easier ones than mine.
I do actually and in particular a little one with autism, making part of the process for educating on certain things more difficult than average, but despite being far from parent of the year, I manage and there are things that work.
>You think you’re just going to explain to a four year old the rules about ice cream and they’ll just be like “you’re right daddy. I forgot we had ice cream from the truck yesterday. I’ll grab some carrot sticks instead”?
Well, yeah. That's what parenting is partly about. Establish limits or conduct through repeated insistence on certain rules and lessons to be learned learned, instead of trying to make complaints against others causing a minor inconvenience with their own source of making a living or food choices you don't seem to like.
Parenting isn't easy and each case is different, but if something as minor as a few minutes of ice cream truck marketing is too much to handle with your kids, blaming others isn't your solution to that problem.
And please, the whole ethics thing you describe is just absurd in this context. A jingling ice cream truck, which kids love and which hardly sells something terrible or deceptive, is far from the kind of manipulative marketing you're contriving here. It's just a basic and basically harmless reality: Kids love ice cream, and there's nothing wrong with someone selling a bit of it to them. You're creating an ethical knot that doesn't have any good reason for existing in a normal world.
Example: Every time I take mine home from school, we pass by a Dairy Queen that's on the route home. Oops, and guess what gets asked for each day that this happens? Some days I say sure, and we go get a cone or blizzard. Other days, it's a firm no, and that's that. Repeat insistence made this work out okay. And I don't blame the DQ for anything, even though this particular branch happens to also use music to market its very visible presence.
>Here’s a better question before you call me a Karen: given that most people have freezers, who exactly benefits from daily ice cream truck visits? Not the parents, for reasons above. The kids find it frustrating too. The fact that they had ice cream yesterday usually doesn’t ease their disappointment.
Totally subjective opinions of your own, and in no way justifying getting so annoyed that you want to ban these things, as you seem to. Again, how about not converting your personal dislikes of minor things into trying to shut those things down.
I do actually and in particular a little one with autism, making part of the process for educating on certain things more difficult than average, but despite being far from parent of the year, I manage and there are things that work.
>You think you’re just going to explain to a four year old the rules about ice cream and they’ll just be like “you’re right daddy. I forgot we had ice cream from the truck yesterday. I’ll grab some carrot sticks instead”?
Well, yeah. That's what parenting is partly about. Establish limits or conduct through repeated insistence on certain rules and lessons to be learned learned, instead of trying to make complaints against others causing a minor inconvenience with their own source of making a living or food choices you don't seem to like.
Parenting isn't easy and each case is different, but if something as minor as a few minutes of ice cream truck marketing is too much to handle with your kids, blaming others isn't your solution to that problem.
And please, the whole ethics thing you describe is just absurd in this context. A jingling ice cream truck, which kids love and which hardly sells something terrible or deceptive, is far from the kind of manipulative marketing you're contriving here. It's just a basic and basically harmless reality: Kids love ice cream, and there's nothing wrong with someone selling a bit of it to them. You're creating an ethical knot that doesn't have any good reason for existing in a normal world.
Example: Every time I take mine home from school, we pass by a Dairy Queen that's on the route home. Oops, and guess what gets asked for each day that this happens? Some days I say sure, and we go get a cone or blizzard. Other days, it's a firm no, and that's that. Repeat insistence made this work out okay. And I don't blame the DQ for anything, even though this particular branch happens to also use music to market its very visible presence.
>Here’s a better question before you call me a Karen: given that most people have freezers, who exactly benefits from daily ice cream truck visits? Not the parents, for reasons above. The kids find it frustrating too. The fact that they had ice cream yesterday usually doesn’t ease their disappointment.
Totally subjective opinions of your own, and in no way justifying getting so annoyed that you want to ban these things, as you seem to. Again, how about not converting your personal dislikes of minor things into trying to shut those things down.
It's amazing how much power one person can have if we let them. I would organize people to talk to the people who made the ban and let them know you are unhappy. People pay so little attention to local politics that even an issue like this can result in someone being elected or not being reelected.
It really is crazy in the USA how much of an overreaction a single, loud, entitled, nosey, complaining neighbor can get with local government: whether it's complaining about kids making noise, complaining about kids playing alone, complaining about traffic, complaining about suspicious black people in their neighborhood, complaining about the length of their neighbor's grass or a car parked in front of their house. You read all these stories about how one complaint resulted in the police being deployed, fines being assessed, innocent people getting in trouble, roads getting speed bumps and 5 all-way stop signs, and other crazy shit happening because some one person couldn't manage to mind their own business.
I think part of this is because people often don't appeal to local government unless they've got an axe to grind. Nobody goes to the city council meeting to comment on how everything is great and things are fine the way they are. So when someone shows up to complain about ice cream truck music, the people who are pleased, or at least indifferent about it, don't show up to oppose the complainer, and the signal the council members get is that it's a problem and a city ordinance or whatever is required. There are typically opportunities in the local law-making process to allow someone to oppose the complainer, and it does happen, but few will match the complainer's level of effort. Then if a law makes it on the books, local LEOs become the complainer-class's customer service representatives, and you get what you're describing.
Ultimately, local civic engagement is often what matters most to your day-to-day life, which is good. I think effective and durable self-governance must start at the local level. But we get blasted by media related to national politics at every time and season, to the point that the thought of trying to stay dialed into local government is a non-starter for many. If all the attention we can bear to allocate to politics is monopolized by the national wedge issues of the day, who will muster the volition to save the ice cream truck music?
Ultimately, local civic engagement is often what matters most to your day-to-day life, which is good. I think effective and durable self-governance must start at the local level. But we get blasted by media related to national politics at every time and season, to the point that the thought of trying to stay dialed into local government is a non-starter for many. If all the attention we can bear to allocate to politics is monopolized by the national wedge issues of the day, who will muster the volition to save the ice cream truck music?
Now imagine a determined AI agent empowered by a nefarious and disgruntled AI researcher.
When it comes to government reps that field calls like this, there's some variation of a formula saying for every one phone call translates to X number of people that feel the same way but do not make the call. It used to be different weightings for someone calling vs writing a letter. Either way, it was more a statistics reaction. Not sure if this comes into play or not.
It could also be that the single person that did complain happens to be a close friend or even related to someone else powerful, or is just influential in the area in other ways. That tilts the weighting as well.
It could also be that the single person that did complain happens to be a close friend or even related to someone else powerful, or is just influential in the area in other ways. That tilts the weighting as well.
I’ve grown up in a Hollywood Hillbilly-esque family, one that made it but kept to the original values. That is to say the e’ve “made it” and live in a highly regarded vacation destination area. Except I grew up learning to stand up to bullies, ne’er-do-wells, and miscreants, if that meant coming to fisticuffs, so be it.
From a young age I learned a fascinating lesson, socially speaking, is that some non trivial percent of the population does not at all mind the proverbial “Karen” causing a ruckus for the community. However, the second you stand up and tell them you don’t agree, somehow, you are the one held responsible as the troublemaker.
It’s not the initial ruckus causer that matters, it’s the conflict causer that does. Too many don’t care about change in any way, they care about “the peace.”
From a young age I learned a fascinating lesson, socially speaking, is that some non trivial percent of the population does not at all mind the proverbial “Karen” causing a ruckus for the community. However, the second you stand up and tell them you don’t agree, somehow, you are the one held responsible as the troublemaker.
It’s not the initial ruckus causer that matters, it’s the conflict causer that does. Too many don’t care about change in any way, they care about “the peace.”
It is downright depressing seeing all of the people pile on regarding the food truck. I can almost understand setting a volume limit on it, if there are some that are going overboard. After all, I'll gripe to my kids for yelling while in the same room with me. But banning or justifying a ban!?
And, I'm fine that we disallow extreme things such as sonic booms. Yes, that should remain banned. For really good reasons. No, that does not extend to sounds of life.
Does it somewhat suck to live near a ball field during playoff season? I guess? Isn't exactly a hidden part of life, though. It also somewhat sucks when the chickens are upset about something out back. Or, heaven help you if you have frogs nearby.
Reminds me of the hilarity of people that want to point out how horrible fireworks are for pets. You aren't wrong, but fireworks are nothing compared to a standard storm in many places. So, maybe tone down the bitching about it a bit?
Edit: Amusingly, I'm currently working from basically under an airport at the moment. Also a very loud place.
And, I'm fine that we disallow extreme things such as sonic booms. Yes, that should remain banned. For really good reasons. No, that does not extend to sounds of life.
Does it somewhat suck to live near a ball field during playoff season? I guess? Isn't exactly a hidden part of life, though. It also somewhat sucks when the chickens are upset about something out back. Or, heaven help you if you have frogs nearby.
Reminds me of the hilarity of people that want to point out how horrible fireworks are for pets. You aren't wrong, but fireworks are nothing compared to a standard storm in many places. So, maybe tone down the bitching about it a bit?
Edit: Amusingly, I'm currently working from basically under an airport at the moment. Also a very loud place.
It's just that annoying. If your city aren't so car dependent maybe kids can get their snack from real vendors in commercial area instead lol
Trust me, it isn't that annoying. Having sea lions that won't stop barking all day is annoying. Coyotes in mating season is obnoxious. A rooster that has decided to not be quiet is annoying.
So sure, kids doing kid things can be loud and obnoxious. But it is not really any more annoying than anything else. The ice cream truck playing a jingle is just not that big of a deal.
Now, I do suspect some folks have obnoxious trucks that play far far louder than they need to? In this vein, it is a lot like cars going down the street. At a base level, it makes noise and it doesn't really make sense to complain about it. That said, it is extra obnoxious to have people trick out cars and motorcycles to be loud on purpose. And those I have no sympathy for getting banned.
So sure, kids doing kid things can be loud and obnoxious. But it is not really any more annoying than anything else. The ice cream truck playing a jingle is just not that big of a deal.
Now, I do suspect some folks have obnoxious trucks that play far far louder than they need to? In this vein, it is a lot like cars going down the street. At a base level, it makes noise and it doesn't really make sense to complain about it. That said, it is extra obnoxious to have people trick out cars and motorcycles to be loud on purpose. And those I have no sympathy for getting banned.
Meanwhile, nobody does anything about all the crotch rockets and douche canoes with exhaust systems deliberately modified to be obnoxiously loud at any hour of the day.
> is a slippery slope to nowhere positive.
Both you and the author are rankly speculating.
Worse, the author is outright misleading:
> Trying to suppress that energy by demanding silence or defaulting to screens is damaging.
The word "damaging" links to an article by Haidt with evidence of damage from defaulting to screens, but decidedly not evidence of damage from demanding silence.
They make the same bait and switch with screen time in a separate paragraph, again with a link to a Haidt article.
I have to say I resent both you and the author for forcing me into having to side with boomers! But you have zero evidence that forcing kids to play sardines instead of tag is detrimental. Given that, I must begrudgingly respect the boomers' grudge and side with your local council's ban (or at least say that it appears innocuous). :(
Both you and the author are rankly speculating.
Worse, the author is outright misleading:
> Trying to suppress that energy by demanding silence or defaulting to screens is damaging.
The word "damaging" links to an article by Haidt with evidence of damage from defaulting to screens, but decidedly not evidence of damage from demanding silence.
They make the same bait and switch with screen time in a separate paragraph, again with a link to a Haidt article.
I have to say I resent both you and the author for forcing me into having to side with boomers! But you have zero evidence that forcing kids to play sardines instead of tag is detrimental. Given that, I must begrudgingly respect the boomers' grudge and side with your local council's ban (or at least say that it appears innocuous). :(
Kids playing is great, but I think this article glosses over some important wrinkles.
A big one I see is that some parents seem incapable of distinguishing between "there are times when it is okay for my child to play noisily" and "my child's activities and/or noise level should never be restricted". Playing in a park is great --- that's what parks are for! Playing in your yard, or an apartment courtyard or the like, great. Playing on the sidewalk is fine. . . but remember that sidewalks are also for people to walk on, so if someone comes by the kid needs to realize that they should let them pass. But then we have parents who come into stores and let their kids grab things from shelves and play with them in the middle of the floor, and so on.
Part of accepting and embracing play is understanding that not every moment is playtime, and that even within playtime there can be subcategories with different expectations.
This article frames it in terms of noise, but in my experience a lot of the issues people have with noise are really issues about parents not understanding how to set boundaries for their kids, and teach their kids that behavior --- not just noise, but everything --- has to be adjusted for different situations.
A big one I see is that some parents seem incapable of distinguishing between "there are times when it is okay for my child to play noisily" and "my child's activities and/or noise level should never be restricted". Playing in a park is great --- that's what parks are for! Playing in your yard, or an apartment courtyard or the like, great. Playing on the sidewalk is fine. . . but remember that sidewalks are also for people to walk on, so if someone comes by the kid needs to realize that they should let them pass. But then we have parents who come into stores and let their kids grab things from shelves and play with them in the middle of the floor, and so on.
Part of accepting and embracing play is understanding that not every moment is playtime, and that even within playtime there can be subcategories with different expectations.
This article frames it in terms of noise, but in my experience a lot of the issues people have with noise are really issues about parents not understanding how to set boundaries for their kids, and teach their kids that behavior --- not just noise, but everything --- has to be adjusted for different situations.
> parents not understanding how to set boundaries for their kids
Absolutely.
Kids being loud when playing football or at the beach is fine and even expected.
Letting your kids run around the theater is not fine. You're ruining the experience for everyone.
Absolutely.
Kids being loud when playing football or at the beach is fine and even expected.
Letting your kids run around the theater is not fine. You're ruining the experience for everyone.
I agree there are some kids and parents who are just unreasonably and/or obnoxious loud in unreasonable moments; I don't think anyone really denies this. I've seen kids race on scooters in supermarkets while the parents were right there. Ugh.
But at least some of these complains have been about really quite reasonable and limited noise levels. For example at my last apartment some kids played out in the courtyard during summer. It really wasn't that often or all that loud. There were a few people who complained as if the kids were out of control, but that wasn't the case at all.
But at least some of these complains have been about really quite reasonable and limited noise levels. For example at my last apartment some kids played out in the courtyard during summer. It really wasn't that often or all that loud. There were a few people who complained as if the kids were out of control, but that wasn't the case at all.
I live next door to a summer camp. The kind that has kids from the nearby city come for 2 weeks, sleep in bunks, play outside all day, hike, etc.
A few months ago we had a carpenter doing some work on the house, and he was asking me about the camp and living so near to it. Eventually he asked "Are they loud when they play? That must be so annoying. I'd hate that."
I replied "Nah, it's healthy and fun, and it doesn't travel as far as you'd think. The real annoying sounds are all the lawnmowers, weed whackers, and gasoline powered tools that people keep using throughout the summer". He immediately went quiet and sour. Guess I hit a nerve.
A few months ago we had a carpenter doing some work on the house, and he was asking me about the camp and living so near to it. Eventually he asked "Are they loud when they play? That must be so annoying. I'd hate that."
I replied "Nah, it's healthy and fun, and it doesn't travel as far as you'd think. The real annoying sounds are all the lawnmowers, weed whackers, and gasoline powered tools that people keep using throughout the summer". He immediately went quiet and sour. Guess I hit a nerve.
Maybe because he was trying to make small talk and you insulted his profession?
OP mentioned "lawnmowers, weed whackers, and gasoline powered tools".
That has nothing to do with standard carpentry.
That has nothing to do with standard carpentry.
The carpenter may have thought the same sentiment is being applied to loud power tools such as table saw, jointer, router, …
Certainly, which is why the social interaction OP described makes sense.
But OP was specific in the loud things they mentioned, and that list very much does not directly imply carpentry. So to then make it about OP's lack of tact by explicitly calling out the OP for focusing on their profession? It strains credulity as a good faith reading of OP's story.
But OP was specific in the loud things they mentioned, and that list very much does not directly imply carpentry. So to then make it about OP's lack of tact by explicitly calling out the OP for focusing on their profession? It strains credulity as a good faith reading of OP's story.
In other words: GP hit a nerve.
You don't think carpentry falls into the category of "professions that make loud noise outdoors"?
Sure, and if OP had said that, perhaps we'd be having a different conversation. Or none at all?
EDIT: Ah, maybe you're responding to my remark of it having "nothing to do"? If so, yeah, that's hyperbole. There are similarities if you want to look for them. But I don't think they're meaningful connections for the point of the story and OP's reaction, in my opinion.
EDIT: Ah, maybe you're responding to my remark of it having "nothing to do"? If so, yeah, that's hyperbole. There are similarities if you want to look for them. But I don't think they're meaningful connections for the point of the story and OP's reaction, in my opinion.
The point of the story is that someone tried to strike up a conversation with OP and he responded by effectively saying "your job is loud and obnoxious", and it's presented as if it's a win. It doesn't really seem like one to me.
The comment was not aimed at the carpenter. Nothing he was doing was loud, and nothing I've experienced with carpenters gives me the impression that they are loud or obnoxious. He was doing a great job. If he took what I said as a dig at his profession, that was his connection, not mine.
My take away, after the fact, was that he may have been someone who enjoyed landscaping his own yard and owned several tools that I listed. Nothing to do with his career and services, and nothing that's a reflection of our interaction.
The story wasn't meant to be a win or a competition. It was a reflection on how some people associate some loud sounds, such as motors, as being perfectly fine and other loud sounds, like children at play, being a nuisance.
My take away, after the fact, was that he may have been someone who enjoyed landscaping his own yard and owned several tools that I listed. Nothing to do with his career and services, and nothing that's a reflection of our interaction.
The story wasn't meant to be a win or a competition. It was a reflection on how some people associate some loud sounds, such as motors, as being perfectly fine and other loud sounds, like children at play, being a nuisance.
That's fair enough. But don't you think carpentry could be considered a loud profession, like the other ones you listed? I imagine carpenters as banging nails with hammers all day. :P
Hammering can get loud. But not louder than any motorized tool. And hammering being limited by the energy capacity of flesh and blood doesn't last for long bursts, maybe a few minutes at a time. In contrast, motorized tools let out an egregious, sharp hum that can last for an hour or two without pause. Both might draw someone's attention and frustration, but when comparing them objectively, one is clearly worse than the other.
On top of that, carpentry is done on site and isn't mobile. Someone doing carpentry as a hobby will likely be in a garage or some enclosed space that absorbs and muffles the sound. Carpentry being done professionally is temporary and will stop once the construction is finished. Landscaping, though, is everywhere and without end
On top of that, carpentry is done on site and isn't mobile. Someone doing carpentry as a hobby will likely be in a garage or some enclosed space that absorbs and muffles the sound. Carpentry being done professionally is temporary and will stop once the construction is finished. Landscaping, though, is everywhere and without end
I believe you that it was unintentional (and I'm sorry for implying that it was!), but I still think the carpenter was upset because you implicated him. Just to prove I'm not crazy here, I asked GPT as a neutral third party, which agrees:
https://chatgpt.com/share/686ff4e8-b7f0-800c-9bbf-bdc1e59500...
https://chatgpt.com/share/686ff4e8-b7f0-800c-9bbf-bdc1e59500...
Gasoline powered generators and air compressors that the carpenter might use to power tools can be quite noisy.
I cannot wait for these to be banned, please, I hope.
It would cost so little comparative money for construction sites to go battery powered. There's some exemptions that need to be made (welders), but man, I doubt the average construction worker uses 1kWh a week. Battery power that shit, you brutes, and spare the world!
Switching these folks to battery would be such an enormous relief for cities. The cheapest shittiest 2 stroke generators raging from 7am to 4pm is an infernal senseless ceaseless din.
It would cost so little comparative money for construction sites to go battery powered. There's some exemptions that need to be made (welders), but man, I doubt the average construction worker uses 1kWh a week. Battery power that shit, you brutes, and spare the world!
Switching these folks to battery would be such an enormous relief for cities. The cheapest shittiest 2 stroke generators raging from 7am to 4pm is an infernal senseless ceaseless din.
Of course. But we already established that OP struck a nerve. OP themselves said that. And nobody was confused about why they struck a nerve with the carpenter.
But this isn't a conversation about whether or not it was possible to connect from what OP said to "loud noises". We all seem to agree on that. Specifically it's a question of whether OP was targeting the carpenters profession. I can't see how OP did that.
I'm kind of surprised I'm still here arguing this. But hey, it's a slow day and I guess it struck a nerve with me for some reason. Hope you're having a good day too!
But this isn't a conversation about whether or not it was possible to connect from what OP said to "loud noises". We all seem to agree on that. Specifically it's a question of whether OP was targeting the carpenters profession. I can't see how OP did that.
I'm kind of surprised I'm still here arguing this. But hey, it's a slow day and I guess it struck a nerve with me for some reason. Hope you're having a good day too!
I've never seen a carpenter use a lawnmower on the job. Seems unwieldy to drag up a ladder.
On a more serious note, most carpentry tools aren't that bad in terms of noise. They can get loud, but they tend to be momentary, getting a cut done, and back to silence. It's the landscaping companies that are running powered tools right up next to people's houses for 30-40 minutes at a time that are the problem. And by the time one company is done, another arrives and revs their own engines.
As for me ruining his attempt at small talk and insulting his profession... Eh. If someone's idea of small talk is trying to make children appear disrupters of the peace for having fun at camp for 6 weeks out of the year, as children ought to do, I'm not too concerned about making a comment expressing a common and often relatable sentiment that makes that person feel bad about their own disruptions of the peace. To the extent that I "insulted his profession", that was him setting himself up. Don't serve a dish you wouldn't want to eat. He could have made small talk in a hundred different ways or found a way to show appreciation instead of annoyance, but he said what he said, and he set the tone.
On a more serious note, most carpentry tools aren't that bad in terms of noise. They can get loud, but they tend to be momentary, getting a cut done, and back to silence. It's the landscaping companies that are running powered tools right up next to people's houses for 30-40 minutes at a time that are the problem. And by the time one company is done, another arrives and revs their own engines.
As for me ruining his attempt at small talk and insulting his profession... Eh. If someone's idea of small talk is trying to make children appear disrupters of the peace for having fun at camp for 6 weeks out of the year, as children ought to do, I'm not too concerned about making a comment expressing a common and often relatable sentiment that makes that person feel bad about their own disruptions of the peace. To the extent that I "insulted his profession", that was him setting himself up. Don't serve a dish you wouldn't want to eat. He could have made small talk in a hundred different ways or found a way to show appreciation instead of annoyance, but he said what he said, and he set the tone.
>Don't serve a dish you wouldn't want to eat.
BRB, off to the tattoo shop
BRB, off to the tattoo shop
social skills of hn on display
Carpenters don't use many gasoline-powered tools...
Guess we had the same thought, I posted a similar comment. It genuinely threw me for a loop cause I was trying to figure out how OP actually said anything about carpentry...
Making furniture with chainsaws is a thing. Funnily enough they used to call this hacking, rather than carpentry.
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This is even funnier.
i can't tell how much of a point you're trying to make, but if complaining about children playing is small talk, the less of it the better.
Definitely this. A total lack of awareness and tact demonstrated by OP.
The point of the story is that OP is absolutely aware of their lack of tact.
Also the camp was probably there when you moved in! So if you complain about normal camp noise you just didn't do your due diligence.
People buy cheap[er] houses near airports and then try to get airport ops changed/restricted all the time. (I agree with you, but it’s obviously a thing that people have no problem doing.)
IANAL, but there's established precedent about this, under the heading of "Coming to the nuisance."
Yeah, I hate lawnmowers. I live next to a church/religious school and an apartment building both with a large yard. I don't mind the daily church bells at 6/12/7 but the constant lawn mowing is the worst.
Donate a tax deductible electric lawn mowing system that quietly cuts 24/7.
Very based. All the people who try to claim that this is bad social skills apparently just take it from folks in the often scummy trades (i.e. mechanics, dentists, etc when I say scummy) who treat us like shit and make snide comments and backhanded compliments with impunity about us lazy computer users. This is triply true in the post AI era. They hate us cus they aint us.
You hit a nerve here too.
You hit a nerve here too.
i think you might be picking up on a level of disdain from others based on your attitude that might not be related to your profession.
we are all extremely lucky to have been born at the right time with the right set of resources to have found work in the information trade. we are not better than mechanics or dentists, and we're often compensated to ridiculous degrees when compared to arguably vital roles like teachers, social workers, therapists, custodial staff, conservation workers, public defenders, farm laborers, and so many other professions.
we are all extremely lucky to have been born at the right time with the right set of resources to have found work in the information trade. we are not better than mechanics or dentists, and we're often compensated to ridiculous degrees when compared to arguably vital roles like teachers, social workers, therapists, custodial staff, conservation workers, public defenders, farm laborers, and so many other professions.
> i think you might be picking up on a level of disdain from others based on your attitude that might not be related to your profession.
Bravo
Bravo
I always have a hard time interpreting these stories. Is this really a trend? Or is it an example of someone collecting anecdotes from all around the world and presenting it as a trend?
The internet makes it easier than ever to search for anecdotes around the world that support an idea, but a collection of global anecdotes does not indicate a trend. There are billions of people in the world and some of them are cranky and intolerant.
If we're sharing anecdotes: I've had nothing but positive responses to my kids playing, even loudly. Obviously I'm not taking them to a library, school, or other dedicated quiet place to play, but the overwhelming majority of people in my area smile and laugh when they see kids playing, loudly or not.
The internet makes it easier than ever to search for anecdotes around the world that support an idea, but a collection of global anecdotes does not indicate a trend. There are billions of people in the world and some of them are cranky and intolerant.
If we're sharing anecdotes: I've had nothing but positive responses to my kids playing, even loudly. Obviously I'm not taking them to a library, school, or other dedicated quiet place to play, but the overwhelming majority of people in my area smile and laugh when they see kids playing, loudly or not.
I'll add to it. My neighbor and I were just recently chitchatting how we love the new family that moved into the neighborhood a few years ago. We love the vibe and color their family adds and it's a large part because they're very visible and audible.
General "kid mayhem" happening all over their yard. It often spills into the street. More than once I have to slow down and wait for the children wailing on their friends with boxing gloves to clear out of the street so I can drive through. It's wonderful. They're close to the entrance of our neighborhood too, which means everybody coming through there is primed to go slow and watch out for kids. It has such a great, calming effect on the overall neighborhood.
General "kid mayhem" happening all over their yard. It often spills into the street. More than once I have to slow down and wait for the children wailing on their friends with boxing gloves to clear out of the street so I can drive through. It's wonderful. They're close to the entrance of our neighborhood too, which means everybody coming through there is primed to go slow and watch out for kids. It has such a great, calming effect on the overall neighborhood.
People complaining about being disturbed by kids playing is at least as old as I am, and probably has existed since about 5 minutes after the first kid was born.
If it was real, they author would have shown some data to support that. So yea, it's just random anecdotes to make it look like there's something for people to be outraged about.
Kids are mildly annoying but generally there's a time and a place.
I have kids. I love a loud house with quiet time.
Loud children above age 2ish in the movie theater or restaurant are to be behaved because of the proximity of others.
Babies on airplanes get a pass because iykyk
I have kids. I love a loud house with quiet time.
Loud children above age 2ish in the movie theater or restaurant are to be behaved because of the proximity of others.
Babies on airplanes get a pass because iykyk
> Babies on airplanes get a pass because iykyk
I think broadly if you’re doing something you just need to do, then a kid being a kid (particularly babies) is fine. Even if it’s annoying, that’s just life. Beyond that you need to pick your place - I’m happy taking my young kids to dinner where there’s other kids and noise, I’d not take them to a quiet tasting menu place.
Having said that, someone with an upset baby is probably having a worse time than I am and I can usually just sympathise, sometimes things are more out of someone’s control than you think.
I think broadly if you’re doing something you just need to do, then a kid being a kid (particularly babies) is fine. Even if it’s annoying, that’s just life. Beyond that you need to pick your place - I’m happy taking my young kids to dinner where there’s other kids and noise, I’d not take them to a quiet tasting menu place.
Having said that, someone with an upset baby is probably having a worse time than I am and I can usually just sympathise, sometimes things are more out of someone’s control than you think.
I generally understand dealing with an upset kid in public is hard and I sympathize. But I once had a red-eye flight where the kid was screaming for its daddy, who we later determined was on the flight just in a different row. We saw no indication the mother was actually trying to soothe the child, nor did she go get the father. We were not happy to start a vacation with such little sleep...
I avoid red eyes. They just aren't worth it.
What?
due to others and lack of space sleeping is not easy. i rather work, relax on the trek while being awake.
One of my favorite stories is a flight with a mom and a few kids. Her oldest started shrieking at some point, likely due to the air pressure change. The mom said something like (calmly) "there's nothing anymore can do about it, so what do you want to happen?" And the kid shut up
Planes are horrible without noise cancelling headphones for me, which incidentally solves the screaming kid problem too.
Indeed I never realized how high the level of the background white noise inside a pressurized cabin really is until I started wearing ANC cup headphones in a plane.
Removing them after a few minutes to talk to someone always feels like I am getting assaulted with noise.
Removing them after a few minutes to talk to someone always feels like I am getting assaulted with noise.
ear plugs + over-ear n/c headphones + white noise or jazz music playing works great
I got some earplugs designed for people who deal with sensory issues and they have completely transformed being on a flight from actively annoying to passively acceptable.
Fell asleep for the first time on a plane and I'm never going back.
Fell asleep for the first time on a plane and I'm never going back.
Earplugs are a godsend on flights. I've found one more trick. No caffeine on days when I fly. That way, I fall asleep easily all day long.
This. My child can shriek at what really feels like ear-piercing frequencies and decibels.
Thankfully boys grow out of it but girls can hit that frequency that cuts the skin.
The general rule is no screaming without a good reason.
As for those without parenting experience there isn't anything you can do short of killing the infant to get it quiet. They go from struggling to inconsolable which is literally a place where they have to exhaust themselves before they calm down. If the parent could quiet the kid they would.
I've experienced it a few times and despite all my experience and skills the child couldn't be soothed until tired enough to respond positively. In most cases it's less than 90 minutes unless there's a physical reason. Then it can be 8 hours. Bless the parents with children with damaged biology.
The general rule is no screaming without a good reason.
As for those without parenting experience there isn't anything you can do short of killing the infant to get it quiet. They go from struggling to inconsolable which is literally a place where they have to exhaust themselves before they calm down. If the parent could quiet the kid they would.
I've experienced it a few times and despite all my experience and skills the child couldn't be soothed until tired enough to respond positively. In most cases it's less than 90 minutes unless there's a physical reason. Then it can be 8 hours. Bless the parents with children with damaged biology.
As we’re in tech, loud or noise are very implicit and can really range.
Reading this on Amsterdam, I know many others countries where there won’t be such a discussion at all about a soccer field outside a building.
I come from a place where children and the population is noisy due to many factors. every time we went as family on a holiday (With dutch people as an example), I saw my children become less and less vocal only to become loud as they were once we were back home.
Recently, we’ve relocated to Spain. It’s only a few months but still, I thought my children would get become less noisy similar to what we saw on holidays after a while…
But nothing changed, and also hearing other children here, they’re in the same “noisy” levels as my kids.
So there’s also a cultural aspect that needs to be considered about what is loud or how children are expected to behave, add immigration to that and cultural differences and you got so many factors.
Reading this on Amsterdam, I know many others countries where there won’t be such a discussion at all about a soccer field outside a building.
I come from a place where children and the population is noisy due to many factors. every time we went as family on a holiday (With dutch people as an example), I saw my children become less and less vocal only to become loud as they were once we were back home.
Recently, we’ve relocated to Spain. It’s only a few months but still, I thought my children would get become less noisy similar to what we saw on holidays after a while…
But nothing changed, and also hearing other children here, they’re in the same “noisy” levels as my kids.
So there’s also a cultural aspect that needs to be considered about what is loud or how children are expected to behave, add immigration to that and cultural differences and you got so many factors.
i think this started happening before the "iPad generation" we all love to bemoan, but it seems like practically overnight, kids were no longer expected to play outside (for all the reasons we've heard ad nauseum, especially those that fly in the face of declining violent crime statistics and increased communication media)... and rather than reflect on that, latently-cranky adults adapted immediately to the disappearance of children from public life. what a shame. i grew up one of those kids playing in parking lots and riding bikes through apartment complexes in my neighborhood looking for jumps, cool free piles and generally just places to be a kid.
i hope (not much, but somewhat) that with this increased recognition of the less-desirable effects of throwing kids in front of a screen, indoors, apart from each other, that we'll start to see kids reintegrate into the fabric of society. it's so important for kids to interact with people as they learn about the world, and it seems equally important for adults to realize that they're a part of the same community as parents and children.
i hope (not much, but somewhat) that with this increased recognition of the less-desirable effects of throwing kids in front of a screen, indoors, apart from each other, that we'll start to see kids reintegrate into the fabric of society. it's so important for kids to interact with people as they learn about the world, and it seems equally important for adults to realize that they're a part of the same community as parents and children.
I wonder how much there is an increased concern about injury, I have three kids and by the time I was their age I had spent more time in the emergency room than all three of them put together. I go to my kids' school from time to time and I don't think I've ever seen a kid in a cast.
I'm noticing a reversal of social deference:
-Then: Older generations had the cultural authority, and children were expected to conform.
-Now: There’s increasing tolerance—and even privilege—granted to children (and parents), sometimes at the expense of quiet, order, or adult comfort.
Hypothesis:
-Then: Older generations had the cultural authority, and children were expected to conform.
-Now: There’s increasing tolerance—and even privilege—granted to children (and parents), sometimes at the expense of quiet, order, or adult comfort.
Hypothesis:
This shift reflects a society aware of its declining birthrate, where children are becoming scarcer and more symbolically valuable, so institutions (like courts) may reflexively protect or favor youth-centered activity.I think it is quite the opposite: what is novel is that this has come before the court at all. Nobody would have dreamed of expecting children to stay inside and be quiet all day during my childhood, nor that of my parents, nor their parents; rather, we were often made to go play outside.
Sometimes there are properties about generations that get carried "alternatively" as cycles.
The generation that got too much authority will give the next generation more space (louder generation). Then the loud generation will create louder generation and authority will come back, etc.
It's just an example and I don't think the loudness is part of those properties but the abstract mechanism has been observed along few generation (I think this mechanism had a proper name but I cannot find it again).
The generation that got too much authority will give the next generation more space (louder generation). Then the loud generation will create louder generation and authority will come back, etc.
It's just an example and I don't think the loudness is part of those properties but the abstract mechanism has been observed along few generation (I think this mechanism had a proper name but I cannot find it again).
> (I think this mechanism had a proper name but I cannot find it again).
Are you referring to the Strauss–Howe generational theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theo...
Are you referring to the Strauss–Howe generational theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theo...
> This shift reflects a society aware of its declining birthrate, where children are becoming scarcer and more symbolically valuable, so institutions (like courts) may reflexively protect or favor youth-centered activity.
Pretty sure no one is valuing kids more because they are "scarce".
Pretty sure no one is valuing kids more because they are "scarce".
I have 2 young kids, but I also had my first when I was 38 so I have a lot of experience as an adult with no kids.
I’ve only ever been seriously annoyed by loud kids a handful of times in my entire life. Each time it was always travel sports teams at hotels.
And I’m the kind of person who gets really annoyed at loud sounds like leaf blowers, and loud car stereos.
Kids can be noisy, but I have never had dinner “ruined” by an uncontrolled kid. I’ve never had a movie ruined by loud kids (I have had movies nearly ruined by loud adults and older teenagers). I’ve never been seated near a baby crying on a plane that I couldn’t tune out—especially with headphones (that is until I flew with my own baby on a plane—can’t tune that out because you’re just desperate to get him to stop so you don’t annoy anyone else).
I think people are just being overly sensitive.
I’ve only ever been seriously annoyed by loud kids a handful of times in my entire life. Each time it was always travel sports teams at hotels.
And I’m the kind of person who gets really annoyed at loud sounds like leaf blowers, and loud car stereos.
Kids can be noisy, but I have never had dinner “ruined” by an uncontrolled kid. I’ve never had a movie ruined by loud kids (I have had movies nearly ruined by loud adults and older teenagers). I’ve never been seated near a baby crying on a plane that I couldn’t tune out—especially with headphones (that is until I flew with my own baby on a plane—can’t tune that out because you’re just desperate to get him to stop so you don’t annoy anyone else).
I think people are just being overly sensitive.
Your tolerance to noise levels says nothing about other people’s tolerance for it. Do not use your baseline to determine what is normal and what is not when it comes to sensorial experiences.
We have kids of various ages playing outside all the time when the weather is good and, yes, they are loud. At least, sometimes they're loud, but they aren't always, and you get used to it. I think it's good for kids to get outside.
So generally it's not an issue and we just sort of tune it out and get on with our days but there is this one kid who only communicates by screaming at the top of their lungs at very high pitch constantly all day. Literally morning til night.
That gets pretty annoying although, fortunately, the particular kid is not always around. If I knew who the parents were I'd probably have had a polite word with them already because it's just so unnecessary even by the standards of excited and energetic children.
So generally it's not an issue and we just sort of tune it out and get on with our days but there is this one kid who only communicates by screaming at the top of their lungs at very high pitch constantly all day. Literally morning til night.
That gets pretty annoying although, fortunately, the particular kid is not always around. If I knew who the parents were I'd probably have had a polite word with them already because it's just so unnecessary even by the standards of excited and energetic children.
I recommend you not comment on this kids screaming. These parents might be extremely self conscious of their kids screaming. They might have constant anxiety about it. Your "polite" word could hurt far more than you imagine, and I doubt the screaming is something fixable with a little elbow grease from the parents.
Are you serious about this advice? Parents cannot be politely approached by a neighbor, because their kids, who they chose to have, are disturbing others regularly?
Yeah, I mean, I didn't type it out longform, but step 1 is obviously to find out what's going on. There might be some very strong underlying cause for the behaviour that means it's going to be difficult or impossible to change... but you can't find that out if you don't talk to the parents. Knowledge promotes understanding, etc.
Yeah I'm serious. I tread carefully giving parenting advice to even my best friends. It's a hugely sensitive topic.
There's kids being noisy, which in itself isn't much of a problem, and then there's _Dutch kids_ being noisy, with the latter sounding more like a bunch of roosters at a heavy metal concert.
That’s my experience too. I wonder why. Too much freedom given to the kids here?
Kind of interested for someone to look into if hearing children noise is healthy, I could imagine it actually affecting one's hormonal response and such, but also maybe not.
No. I thought it was widely known that kindergarten employees suffer from earing loss due to repeated exposure to high sound level from the screaming kids.
Anecdotally, children making "children noises" is calming for me.
It was not until after I was a parent myself though. Like many things in life, once I had the connection in my own personal life, it is now very easy and automatic for me to empathize and support other children. It feels deep, like more an automatic response.
It was not until after I was a parent myself though. Like many things in life, once I had the connection in my own personal life, it is now very easy and automatic for me to empathize and support other children. It feels deep, like more an automatic response.
Our dorm was next to a playground in college. It was impossible to sleep in. They were literally just screaming at the top of their lungs for hours at a time. I guess it's different when it's someone else's day you're ruining.
There's a difference between being loud in public vs privately. As a kid, I was never allowed to be loud in a restaurant, unless it was a restaurant for kids—and even then up to a reasonable limit
Thankfully this is not a problem in Spain (I think this is either a southern European thing or Spanish thing). Kids share adult spaces all the time being it restaurants, bar, plazas or other spaces. I would not trade this for the world. In general the country is a very welcoming one for children in public spaces including active children.
I live across the street from an elementary school and during recess it gets quite noisy. I don't particularly mind, with one big exception: some kids scream a lot. I normally associate that screaming sound with "there is an emergency, check for trouble", but it's just kids playing (and I hear the teachers telling them to stop). Even during the off season, there is noise; for example, the people doing construction work sometimes trip the fire alarm, which rings for hours because the site staff isn't around.
I'd love to explain the idea of alarm fatigue, but from experience, people just think you're a jerk if you say "You should stop that alarm from turning on when there isn't a fire, because I will stop paying attention"
I'd love to explain the idea of alarm fatigue, but from experience, people just think you're a jerk if you say "You should stop that alarm from turning on when there isn't a fire, because I will stop paying attention"
A few months back, my wife and I had our windows open and heard some neighbors' kids playing drums and guitar in their garage. They were TERRIBLE.
We're sad we haven't heard them again recently. I was hoping to follow along as they got better.
We're sad we haven't heard them again recently. I was hoping to follow along as they got better.
Ok but my neighborhood children have started using electric leaf blowers as jet propulsion on skateboards. I have insisted they use hearing protection, but the rest of us are shit out of luck…
Hm. I think I am encountering cultural differences here, again. Personally, I have a point from my grandma in my head: "If your ears are ringing from happy, playing children, that's future in your ears. That's good". For sure, within reason, but a huge ruckus in the shared backyard or playground between 08:00 or 20:00 due to kids?
That's what kids to.
I rather get worried if they abruptly stop, or start yelling differently. I don't even have kids, but I'll still take a look wether a kid of a neighbour mananged to add a temporary third joint to their arm, is bleeding a worrying amount or something like that.
That's what kids to.
I rather get worried if they abruptly stop, or start yelling differently. I don't even have kids, but I'll still take a look wether a kid of a neighbour mananged to add a temporary third joint to their arm, is bleeding a worrying amount or something like that.
I don't really see any need to take parental advice from a blog.
Not going to give advice either as we all have our own methods, but it's more or less the opposite of what this person is saying.
Doesn't mean letting them sit mindlessly in front of screens, but screen time is okay as long as they are creating, not consuming.
That has nothing to do with their noise levels though. There's a time and place. Outside with friends, yeah sure be loud within reason. In public around strangers? You better shut the hell up.
Not going to give advice either as we all have our own methods, but it's more or less the opposite of what this person is saying.
Doesn't mean letting them sit mindlessly in front of screens, but screen time is okay as long as they are creating, not consuming.
That has nothing to do with their noise levels though. There's a time and place. Outside with friends, yeah sure be loud within reason. In public around strangers? You better shut the hell up.
The issue I see is not with kids themselves but rather the parents, dumping them anywhere with no supervision because they need to "disconnect" doomscrolling on instagram.
I played in the courtyard with neighboring kids all my infancy and as soon as the volume raised above a certain level, we were scolded immediately
I played in the courtyard with neighboring kids all my infancy and as soon as the volume raised above a certain level, we were scolded immediately
Free noise cancelling airpods for all. I don’t hear anything anymore.
WHAT!? ;)
We seem less tolerant of kids these days, and more tolerant of dogs.
The other day an unleashed dog ran into my yard from the adjacent park and the woman escorting it informed me that I should build a fence!
Yeah I like dogs, but growing up we treated them as a home and backyard pet only, having them run around in neighborhood or bringing to stores or restaurants(!) would have been unthinkable. I really don't get it.
I didn't even have a problem with the dog being there. The lady was put out that she had to fight through some brambles to come over and retrieve it.
guywithahat(3)
No.
I was just writing two days ago about how ADHD is overdiagnosed and our system is just set up to try to coerce kids to be convenient for the system: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44490274
There I put forward some proposals at the end
There I put forward some proposals at the end
I have under-diagnosed ADHD because my father was a Fox News disciple, science-hating, arrogant bigot who believed ADHD was a "conspiracy" of anti-male leftists.
I don't know about your particular situation, but I'm speaking systemically, and about large trends and socio-economic realities that affect people.
But having said that, I'd be very interested to hear what you think the consequences of the under-diagnosis were, realistically.
As far as anti-science, I think people on the left and right of the political spectrum are anti-science, at least to the same degree that term is thrown around.
But having said that, I'd be very interested to hear what you think the consequences of the under-diagnosis were, realistically.
As far as anti-science, I think people on the left and right of the political spectrum are anti-science, at least to the same degree that term is thrown around.
> I don't know about your particular situation, but I'm speaking systemically, and about large trends and socio-economic realities that affect people.
You're minimizing and trivializing my situation and opinion as invalid.
> But having said that, I'd be very interested to hear what you think the consequences of the under-diagnosis were, realistically.
Well, being called "weird" and routinely dissed and dismissed as some sort of innate character flaw.
> As far as anti-science, I think people on the left and right of the political spectrum are anti-science, at least to the same degree that term is thrown around.
I'm not familiar with many or hardly anyone (except crazies) on the left being anti-science. What's your evidence for this?
You're minimizing and trivializing my situation and opinion as invalid.
> But having said that, I'd be very interested to hear what you think the consequences of the under-diagnosis were, realistically.
Well, being called "weird" and routinely dissed and dismissed as some sort of innate character flaw.
> As far as anti-science, I think people on the left and right of the political spectrum are anti-science, at least to the same degree that term is thrown around.
I'm not familiar with many or hardly anyone (except crazies) on the left being anti-science. What's your evidence for this?
I saw one of the trucks at a school fete and asked about it. The guy said one person had complained about the noise so the local council banned them after 7pm! With most of their sales falling between 6-9pm, they decided it wasn't worth it for one hour and moved on to other local towns.
So not exactly "kids", but I think banning the normal, everyday noises involved in a local culture, whether that's church bells, kids playing football, carol singers, or ice cream trucks, is a slippery slope to nowhere positive.