Dating Men in the Bay Area(astralcodexten.com)
astralcodexten.com
Dating Men in the Bay Area
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-review-dating-men-in-the-bay
14 comments
Yes! Most of the first part and the archetypes seemed a little sour and dissppointed, even demanding, which apalled me from the author. I feel pretty whole, but i have my days - and so do you!
I really liked the suggestions at the end of the article, though. Really wholesome and a good direction.
I really liked the suggestions at the end of the article, though. Really wholesome and a good direction.
This has quite a few issues with framing bias. It sets up this dichotomy between “polite society’s” vague, restrictive rules for men and the "manosphere’s" toxic but concrete guidance. Then she talks about only the men she has dated and kind of ignores the rest of male dating experience. All in all it just reads like a emotional attempt to persuade us to.. something.. but no real evidence. I don't think we can generalize men of the bay area, or men in general around these experience of one person.
Just find someone you usually enjoy being around and can ultimately start a family with, and who would be loyal. Too many people are over-thinking this stuff.
Another perspective if I may: People are used to the dating apps now which require just a few milliseconds of consideration before swiping yes, or no. That focus on essentially "hot or not" eliminates entire swaths of the dating pool to just those someone finds attractive. The worrisome part is that they take that mentality of "only swiping on ~10" that they've transferred it to the real world. Why bother talking to that man, or that women, when the app gives you thousands and thousands of infinite choice. Why settle when there's so many better ones to choose from?
That's one boring ass way to look at life
> Just find someone ... who would be loyal
That's much harder than you realize.
Something close to half of all marriages fail. Significant numbers of men and women cheat. Roughly 30% of children given paternity tests or even those who use ancestry services discover their assumed fathers... aren't. Significant numbers of men and women are abusive, both physically and emotionally.
People suck.
And, the rugged individualism (bordering on objectivism) cultivated so strongly within the US doesn't help things.
You may as well be telling someone not to be poor.
That's much harder than you realize.
Something close to half of all marriages fail. Significant numbers of men and women cheat. Roughly 30% of children given paternity tests or even those who use ancestry services discover their assumed fathers... aren't. Significant numbers of men and women are abusive, both physically and emotionally.
People suck.
And, the rugged individualism (bordering on objectivism) cultivated so strongly within the US doesn't help things.
You may as well be telling someone not to be poor.
>Roughly 30% of children given paternity tests or even those who use ancestry services discover their assumed fathers... aren't.
Not true in modern contexts. Misattribution of paternity is much closer to 1-2%: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34288189/, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237633127_How_Well_...
The 30% figure comes from men who already doubt paternity...obviously some strong selection effects there.
In addition, there are very strong cohort effects for divorce. For example, if you have a bachelors the divorce rate is more like 25%.
Not true in modern contexts. Misattribution of paternity is much closer to 1-2%: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34288189/, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237633127_How_Well_...
The 30% figure comes from men who already doubt paternity...obviously some strong selection effects there.
In addition, there are very strong cohort effects for divorce. For example, if you have a bachelors the divorce rate is more like 25%.
Lost in in the discourse of of toxic masculinity and deconstruction of male gender identies is the truth that there are traditionally masculine traits that women are biologically hard wired to find attractive.
Women across all cultures are drawn to status and, for lack of a more precise term, stoicism.
Status can take many forms in different societies or even sub cultures, but striving for status of some sort seems to be a universally attractive trait for males.
Women verbalize they want men who are emotionally available, but I've been compared to Spock in demeanor quite frequently and it seems to be quite popular with women.
Women across all cultures are drawn to status and, for lack of a more precise term, stoicism.
Status can take many forms in different societies or even sub cultures, but striving for status of some sort seems to be a universally attractive trait for males.
Women verbalize they want men who are emotionally available, but I've been compared to Spock in demeanor quite frequently and it seems to be quite popular with women.
The prescriptive feminist talking points about what makes a man are poorly justified, and as such more likely to be taken as political agenda than well-meaning advice for self-actualization. But I don’t think this post deserves to be flagged, it’s bringing up a discussion relevant to the current political landscape.
Human populations independently progressed so much culturally and otherwise beyond being hunter-gatherers, and the fact that the discourse neglects all those lines of human cultural evolution when it talks about “monkey brain”, “brain made for eating berries in a cave”, or “you gather, me hunt” is both thoughtless and incomplete.
Let’s consider this first point in particular,
> Your authentic self should not be: dominant, highly interested in sex, competitive, emotionally reserved, prone to risk-taking, bad at reading emotions, stoic, or interested in power.
Coupled with the rest of the points, it appears to be describing the mental state of a Eunuch, which goes against the advice to not be stoic, so I find that inconsistent. Secondly, I don’t think it’s fair to demand that one shouldn’t expect good behavior from others—that’s the very basis of social contracts. But let’s stay on point.
There are many inventions which have created cultural paradigm shifts, and I think the invention of guns/drones are similar in that they have equalized men and women in terms of strength and capability. FFS, please don’t read this as me inciting any kind of hatred against one type of people or another. Instead note that physical strength is not the differentiating factor that it once used to be.
I think it’s necessary now to think of the potential that that cultural shift presents. To me, I think there’s an opportunity here to truly design a gender-neutral cultural framework because what matters now is what’s in your mind, that is your character, desires, and personal expression.
Instead I offer this version of what it takes to be a man or woman or as-you-wish: think of mirroring God (note: I am not religious, but I think of god as a philosophical framework).
So women, men and whoever: as God’s mirror, you’re a creator, you’re magnanimous, you’re wise, you’re just, you wield your wrath in a just manner, etc. etc. You are the embodiment of noblesse oblige. But you are mortal. So you must take care to protect yourself, both physically and mentally from people with parasitic or narcissistic traits. Encourage self-reliance and independent thinking, the basis of exercising free will.
The above isn’t exactly completely thought out on my part, so I am sure there are gaps to be addressed. But I don’t think that kind of philosophical framework precludes sex or relationships, or demands heteronormativity. You could have multiple partners, but that just means do it in some gracious and respectful manner, for example. I don’t know, it depends. A lot of people with money don’t have class.
I also don’t think it’s fair to expect men to do all the hard work of trying to fix these cultural issues by programming themselves to be one thing or another, but not expect that of everyone else. Everyone is terrible, in their own unique and special way.
But most of all, everyone needs to realize that there are huge capability gaps between themselves and other people, and one may never be able to close such gaps for any number of reasons. The best you can do is educate and move on.
Human populations independently progressed so much culturally and otherwise beyond being hunter-gatherers, and the fact that the discourse neglects all those lines of human cultural evolution when it talks about “monkey brain”, “brain made for eating berries in a cave”, or “you gather, me hunt” is both thoughtless and incomplete.
Let’s consider this first point in particular,
> Your authentic self should not be: dominant, highly interested in sex, competitive, emotionally reserved, prone to risk-taking, bad at reading emotions, stoic, or interested in power.
Coupled with the rest of the points, it appears to be describing the mental state of a Eunuch, which goes against the advice to not be stoic, so I find that inconsistent. Secondly, I don’t think it’s fair to demand that one shouldn’t expect good behavior from others—that’s the very basis of social contracts. But let’s stay on point.
There are many inventions which have created cultural paradigm shifts, and I think the invention of guns/drones are similar in that they have equalized men and women in terms of strength and capability. FFS, please don’t read this as me inciting any kind of hatred against one type of people or another. Instead note that physical strength is not the differentiating factor that it once used to be.
I think it’s necessary now to think of the potential that that cultural shift presents. To me, I think there’s an opportunity here to truly design a gender-neutral cultural framework because what matters now is what’s in your mind, that is your character, desires, and personal expression.
Instead I offer this version of what it takes to be a man or woman or as-you-wish: think of mirroring God (note: I am not religious, but I think of god as a philosophical framework).
So women, men and whoever: as God’s mirror, you’re a creator, you’re magnanimous, you’re wise, you’re just, you wield your wrath in a just manner, etc. etc. You are the embodiment of noblesse oblige. But you are mortal. So you must take care to protect yourself, both physically and mentally from people with parasitic or narcissistic traits. Encourage self-reliance and independent thinking, the basis of exercising free will.
The above isn’t exactly completely thought out on my part, so I am sure there are gaps to be addressed. But I don’t think that kind of philosophical framework precludes sex or relationships, or demands heteronormativity. You could have multiple partners, but that just means do it in some gracious and respectful manner, for example. I don’t know, it depends. A lot of people with money don’t have class.
I also don’t think it’s fair to expect men to do all the hard work of trying to fix these cultural issues by programming themselves to be one thing or another, but not expect that of everyone else. Everyone is terrible, in their own unique and special way.
But most of all, everyone needs to realize that there are huge capability gaps between themselves and other people, and one may never be able to close such gaps for any number of reasons. The best you can do is educate and move on.
Did you miss that the author is criticizing these talking points?
> This is the new guidance we’re tossing at young men. It’s the equivalent of taking away GPS from a driver and handing them a map scrawled by a half-blind cartographer tripping on acid.
> The obvious result is getting disastrously lost; the only question is which type of lostness will impact a man.
> This is the new guidance we’re tossing at young men. It’s the equivalent of taking away GPS from a driver and handing them a map scrawled by a half-blind cartographer tripping on acid.
> The obvious result is getting disastrously lost; the only question is which type of lostness will impact a man.
Oops, you’re right, I admit I got tired reading it half way through and didn’t finish. Sadly I can’t edit my post now.
I direct my OP at whoever gives that kind of guidance to anyone, and not the author’s post, then.
I direct my OP at whoever gives that kind of guidance to anyone, and not the author’s post, then.
I think it does boil down to "try things a lot," especially creating real connections with other people, even though you will painfully fail many times. Drive yourself to have real conversations. Protect your health and keep yourself strong physically and mentally. That's a powerful base to be standing on. Then go find a blend of interest, purpose and duty - building a sense of dharma helps you wake up in the morning and move through the world feeling a little less "lost."