Canada's immigration website crashes on election night(ctvnews.ca)
ctvnews.ca
Canada's immigration website crashes on election night
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-immigration-website-crashes-on-election-night-1.3152231?hootPostID=14d10ea891a36bd74ea02d19ec7cf954
552 comments
> I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly
I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.
I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.
While taking a deep breath to avoid hyperbole about Trump, it might be worth pointing out that the 9th of November is the anniversary for the Kristallnacht:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
Now, I honestly don't think Trump will be as bad as Mussolini, Franco or Hitler - but we do have some fairly horrifying recent precedent for what might happen when a right-wing populist gains power during an economic crisis.
I don't think the fact that the US have spent years getting ready for, in the words of Edward Snowden(?): "turn key totalitarianism", along with a radical militarization of the police force makes much of an improvement.
That said:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/trump-victory-clinton-san...
"Politics Is the Solution
We can’t move to Canada or hide under the bed. This is a moment to embrace democratic politics, not repudiate them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
Now, I honestly don't think Trump will be as bad as Mussolini, Franco or Hitler - but we do have some fairly horrifying recent precedent for what might happen when a right-wing populist gains power during an economic crisis.
I don't think the fact that the US have spent years getting ready for, in the words of Edward Snowden(?): "turn key totalitarianism", along with a radical militarization of the police force makes much of an improvement.
That said:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/trump-victory-clinton-san...
"Politics Is the Solution
We can’t move to Canada or hide under the bed. This is a moment to embrace democratic politics, not repudiate them."
there were people in the early 30's in Germany and across the world that, at that time, did not think that Hitler would go full-blown Hitler. because it was unthinkable madness
yet he did
and he told everybody in advance what he wanted to do. in Mein Kampf, at the very least
yet he did
and he told everybody in advance what he wanted to do. in Mein Kampf, at the very least
This.
And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.
That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".
And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.
And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.
That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".
And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.
>And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people
Hillary wasn't threatening groups of people. Muslims, gays, transgender people, and more are actually in for a worse time in this country. It's not always about just being disgruntled.
Hillary wasn't threatening groups of people. Muslims, gays, transgender people, and more are actually in for a worse time in this country. It's not always about just being disgruntled.
SixSigma(2)
While Trump says he will introduce a temporary ban Muslims from problematic places, I don't think I heard him speak against LGBTQ issues --if anything this is one of the things which made "conservative" republicans nervous about him --that in that regard he's pretty open minded (You'd imagine if he had Thiel speak at his convention, that kind of tips his hand). Also saying he didn't care what restroom Caitlin Jenner chose to use at his properties.
Sure, but it's not just Trump, his VP and political senior is a man that advocates openly for conversion therapy. That's where their very legitimate fear comes from.
Have you seen our new Vice President? He supports literal torture of gay people. That's not even hyperbole.The only "pro-LGBT" thing Trump has ever done was use the Orlando shooting as a way to attack Muslims.
> You'd imagine if he had Thiel speak at his convention, that kind of tips his hand
He also had Ben Carson speak, but the KKK didn't seem to be dissuaded by that.
He also had Ben Carson speak, but the KKK didn't seem to be dissuaded by that.
Do you think no KKK-er voted for Hillary? I'm sure it's a small Venn diagram but I'm sure there were. Just because people will identify with a candidate does not mean the candidate represents their views. We also saw more black voters vote for Trump than voted for Romney...
I imagine probably a handful of random KKK members voted for Hillary (there will always be a couple of outliers in any large group), but I don't see what difference that makes. Trump was literally endorsed by the Klan's official newspaper as well as by David Duke himself. This wasn't some random Klansmen voting their conscience — the Klan officially supported Trump and didn't mind having Carson as an ally (why would they? It allows them to say stuff like "How can we be so bad for black people if this black guy is on our side?").
> having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money
Slightly off topic:
I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.
Slightly off topic:
I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.
You have a point, I think the costs probably depend on a lot of factors, and I suppose a "lot of money" is relative. I expressed some of my frustrations in this rather long comment here [0]. I went through CEC, and in order to get points I had to pass language exams in English and in French, even though I have certified Education in both languages, had to certify my degree, get background checks for a number of countries, etc. It all added up very quickly for me, but that likely varies from person to person. That said, I'm aware that I'm luckier than most.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11879503
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11879503
Compare it to US immigration also, where I got 6 years and easily over $20,000 in employer-paid costs in, and didn't even get to the green card stage.
[EDIT] Overstated cost, ran the numbers it's $20-25K.
[EDIT] Overstated cost, ran the numbers it's $20-25K.
That's ridiculous.
I moved to Germany from Canada a few years ago when I was in my mid-20s. Nothing wrong with Canada, I was just bored.
I came to Germany on a tourist visa and found a job by sending my CV to random German technology companies I found via LinkedIn.
The Blue Card (EU equivalent of a Green Card) cost all of 135 EUR and is valid for four years. The processing time for the Blue Card is around 6 weeks after application, but I think that's pretty standard for bureaucracy in any country.
Getting my Canadian Bachelor of Engineering recognized as a German equivalent degree cost 200 EUR and took 3 months.
You'll also need one biometric (passport) photo, which if you use a machine at any of the train stations will cost around 6 EUR. You can use the remaining 5 photos for things like getting a German driver's license, health card, etc.
I paid ADAC around 40 EUR to "translate" my Canadian driver's license into German, and then around 50 EUR to exchange it for a German Führerschein.
Total visa/admin cost for a comparable life in Germany: 450 EUR
Now, I have spent around 3000 EUR for language courses over the past several years, but I'm getting pretty fluent in German, so I'd consider it money well spent. If you were more self-motivated I'm sure you could study the language by just getting the textbooks and watching YouTube videos.
I moved to Germany from Canada a few years ago when I was in my mid-20s. Nothing wrong with Canada, I was just bored.
I came to Germany on a tourist visa and found a job by sending my CV to random German technology companies I found via LinkedIn.
The Blue Card (EU equivalent of a Green Card) cost all of 135 EUR and is valid for four years. The processing time for the Blue Card is around 6 weeks after application, but I think that's pretty standard for bureaucracy in any country.
Getting my Canadian Bachelor of Engineering recognized as a German equivalent degree cost 200 EUR and took 3 months.
You'll also need one biometric (passport) photo, which if you use a machine at any of the train stations will cost around 6 EUR. You can use the remaining 5 photos for things like getting a German driver's license, health card, etc.
I paid ADAC around 40 EUR to "translate" my Canadian driver's license into German, and then around 50 EUR to exchange it for a German Führerschein.
Total visa/admin cost for a comparable life in Germany: 450 EUR
Now, I have spent around 3000 EUR for language courses over the past several years, but I'm getting pretty fluent in German, so I'd consider it money well spent. If you were more self-motivated I'm sure you could study the language by just getting the textbooks and watching YouTube videos.
FWIW the breakdown looks like this (for me):
Initially entered on a TN, a lawyer will charge approximately $2,000 to prepare the letter. Luckily the filing fee here is $50.
Converted to an H-1B, for which filing fees are $3050 (including premium processing of course). This carries with it a legal cost of up to $3000 for preparing the paperwork and shepherding it through, so $6050.
Moved my H-1B to a new employer, that's another $6050 for the new employer.
That gets us close to the $15,000 mark.
Next, a PERM petition was prepared which costs approximately $3000 in legal fees, in addition to advertising a job for at least 6 months including 2 Sundays in the local newspaper, and interviewing each candidate that shows up.
And six years.
So I guess I was off, but it definitely didn't cost less than $20,000 -- probably closer to $25,000 if you take into account the employer burden of PERM interviews.
Initially entered on a TN, a lawyer will charge approximately $2,000 to prepare the letter. Luckily the filing fee here is $50.
Converted to an H-1B, for which filing fees are $3050 (including premium processing of course). This carries with it a legal cost of up to $3000 for preparing the paperwork and shepherding it through, so $6050.
Moved my H-1B to a new employer, that's another $6050 for the new employer.
That gets us close to the $15,000 mark.
Next, a PERM petition was prepared which costs approximately $3000 in legal fees, in addition to advertising a job for at least 6 months including 2 Sundays in the local newspaper, and interviewing each candidate that shows up.
And six years.
So I guess I was off, but it definitely didn't cost less than $20,000 -- probably closer to $25,000 if you take into account the employer burden of PERM interviews.
I wouldn't worry about it. Threatening to move to Canada after a political loss is a time-honored American tradition, and not one which produces much in the way of concrete results.
Assuming it's not crashed by the minorities who are likely to feel the brunt of the policy changes... I'm having a lot of very sober conversations with my immigrant friends.
Please keep in mind that many people currently living in the US may feel that they are in "very real danger", or may be soon.
We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).
You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.
Congratulations on your residence status.
We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).
You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.
Congratulations on your residence status.
I think we're safer from nuclear war now, at least in the short-term. Hillary was going to continue the hard-line against Russia. Trump will likely come to a civilized agreement with them that deescalates the situation. There's no secret that he's Putin's favorite candidate (while the rest of Europe is in shock right now.)
More concerning is his policy with regard to Iran, but the current treaty covers our butts in the short term, while giving the Iranians a sure shot at nuclear capability down the road. Once they get nukes, the Saudis will want them too and the world will be a few minutes closer to midnight. It remains to be seen if Trump will make the situation better or worse.
More concerning is his policy with regard to Iran, but the current treaty covers our butts in the short term, while giving the Iranians a sure shot at nuclear capability down the road. Once they get nukes, the Saudis will want them too and the world will be a few minutes closer to midnight. It remains to be seen if Trump will make the situation better or worse.
It's his personality, not his policy, that worries most people.
They're not leaving the country. Their country left them.
That's ironic, considering that's how most Trump voters feel.
> - I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...
Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?
What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.
This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.
To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.
Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?
What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.
This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.
To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.
Canada seems appealing to Americans until you realize you could be earning more in the U.S. while spending less on a bunch of other things.
Don't get me wrong, I love living in Canada and I mostly don't miss living in Bay Area, but most of my friends lament the fact that their salary and career opportunities are a joke compared to what they could have in the U.S. (even adjusting for cost of living).
Don't get me wrong, I love living in Canada and I mostly don't miss living in Bay Area, but most of my friends lament the fact that their salary and career opportunities are a joke compared to what they could have in the U.S. (even adjusting for cost of living).
Canada would be an odd choice for many reasons, but is probably attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities. For me, I've been looking at Ireland, Denmark, or the Netherlands for a while, and I'd say they're looking far more attractive today than yesterday.
Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.
Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.
If you didn't read the newspaper, how many of the negative things you mentioned would actually impact your life? Would you even know who was president for the last 4 (or the next 4) based on the impacts to your life? I'd guess not.
Just live your life and be happy, vote when you can but don't let what you don't control make you sad.
Just live your life and be happy, vote when you can but don't let what you don't control make you sad.
I grew up and lived most of my life in America, then emigrated to a country with universal healthcare (the UK). When I developed a life-threatening condition which my US insurance would never have covered, the National Health Service saved my life.
These things don't matter until they really, really, really do. Having seen the grass on both sides of the fence, I can attest that it really can be meaningfully greener.
These things don't matter until they really, really, really do. Having seen the grass on both sides of the fence, I can attest that it really can be meaningfully greener.
The nhs is great. A model for the rest of the world to follow yet the tories are fighting tooth and nail to dismantle it.
They are and we aren't fighting back tooth and nail to stop them.
We just let them do it because we (collective we) have grown so used to having it we can't remember what it was like before, people dying from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford it, average life expectancy been a whole decade lower (or more) etc.
We (again collective) won't realise what we had until it's gone.
We just let them do it because we (collective we) have grown so used to having it we can't remember what it was like before, people dying from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford it, average life expectancy been a whole decade lower (or more) etc.
We (again collective) won't realise what we had until it's gone.
My filthy tories voting friends do actually agree that police, nhs, fire services, etc are worth spending money on. I think the Tories have lost sight of what is important to their supporters.
Yep, they spend £600m a year on management consultants to tell them things they already know. Enough to run 8-9 large hospitals.
That's public money going to the private sector for no real benefit.
That's public money going to the private sector for no real benefit.
I've gotten a pavlovian response to "good things", where I start imagining it already breaking down.
Like Obamas presidency. For every good he's done or tried to do, all the shit in the world that affects the US (and even things that are not real apparently) gets pinned on him, regardless of cause.
And sure, Obamacare probably has a lot of faults, but is that because of its concept, because of congressional gridlock, or compromises?
I won't argue either way, but it's always sad when something gets dismantled or at least scolded for reasons outside of its grasp.
I don't know enough about NHS to say, but spending £600M/year on management consultants doesn't sound like a healthcare problem.
I'm not religious, but it's the same with Islam being lumped together with extremists, Christianity being lumped in with crusades and westboro baptists and other lunatics, and both republicans and liberals being categorized by a few vocal idiots.
Sometimes you have to try to look objectively at something and the faults alongside it, and try to determine if they are one and the same. Sometimes it's worth fighting to improve something instead of just burning it to the ground, because there's a good chance the new foundation being built is worse than what you destroyed.
Like Obamas presidency. For every good he's done or tried to do, all the shit in the world that affects the US (and even things that are not real apparently) gets pinned on him, regardless of cause.
And sure, Obamacare probably has a lot of faults, but is that because of its concept, because of congressional gridlock, or compromises?
I won't argue either way, but it's always sad when something gets dismantled or at least scolded for reasons outside of its grasp.
I don't know enough about NHS to say, but spending £600M/year on management consultants doesn't sound like a healthcare problem.
I'm not religious, but it's the same with Islam being lumped together with extremists, Christianity being lumped in with crusades and westboro baptists and other lunatics, and both republicans and liberals being categorized by a few vocal idiots.
Sometimes you have to try to look objectively at something and the faults alongside it, and try to determine if they are one and the same. Sometimes it's worth fighting to improve something instead of just burning it to the ground, because there's a good chance the new foundation being built is worse than what you destroyed.
What life threatening condition did you have that isn't covered by insurance?
Long-term back pain that counted as a pre-existing condition for every insurance package I had, on the rare occasions when I could afford to be insured. That eventually degenerated into a couple of prolapsed disc that cut off the nerves to may legs, resulting in constant pain (the kind that leaves you screaming and writhing without a constant morphine drip) and making it impossible to walk, sit up, or go to the bathroom unaided. While not technically a life-threatening condition, my quality of life was low enough that I certainly would have committed suicide had it persisted indefinitely.
In the US, as I say, this would not have been covered by my insurance, and would have cost around $50,000 to fix. Completely infeasible for me to find that amount of money. The NHS did an excellent job of fixing it for free.
In the US, as I say, this would not have been covered by my insurance, and would have cost around $50,000 to fix. Completely infeasible for me to find that amount of money. The NHS did an excellent job of fixing it for free.
Organ transplant, edit: most likely
> "life-threatening condition which my US insurance would never have covered"
I wonder how is that possible? Insurance plans these days have to cover you even if you have a pre-existing condition, even the cheapest plans cover everything after a deductible, unless I am missing something
I wonder how is that possible? Insurance plans these days have to cover you even if you have a pre-existing condition, even the cheapest plans cover everything after a deductible, unless I am missing something
Thank Obamacare for that, and that only kicked in on 2011. Prior to that, insurance recission was a real and pervasive issue for those with preexisting conditions.
You have to wonder how long 'Obamacare' is going to last now with a Republican president, congress and senate...
> You have to wonder how long 'Obamacare' is going to last now with a Republican president, congress and senate...
I don't think the Republicans have enough people in the Senate to block filibusters. So I assume the Democrats will use the filibuster to block repeals of the healthcare law.
I don't think the Republicans have enough people in the Senate to block filibusters. So I assume the Democrats will use the filibuster to block repeals of the healthcare law.
NYTimes has an article describing how they can effectively dismantle large portions of Obamacare:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/upshot/the-future-of-obama...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/upshot/the-future-of-obama...
Why in the world would the GOP ever leave the filibuster in place? Mitch will remove it at the beginning of the 115th Congress.
Boom. Now Obamacare can be repealed with simple majority. I bet you dollars to donuts that insurance prices, however, will not go back down to pre-Obamacare prices. Because profits.
Boom. Now Obamacare can be repealed with simple majority. I bet you dollars to donuts that insurance prices, however, will not go back down to pre-Obamacare prices. Because profits.
The fact that prices went up at all shows there is a huge problem. We're already paying more than anyone else in the world, why can't we get something for our money instead of having to pay even more?
Because politicians don't represent you, they represent the people paying their bills.
Sounds simplistic but if you look at the system as a whole, ask who its benefitting the most, doesnt seem to be the electorate.
We have the same problem in the UK, it got us Brexit and you folks Trump.
As Michael Moore said when he predicted a trump win, "It's the biggest fuck you they can send".
Sounds simplistic but if you look at the system as a whole, ask who its benefitting the most, doesnt seem to be the electorate.
We have the same problem in the UK, it got us Brexit and you folks Trump.
As Michael Moore said when he predicted a trump win, "It's the biggest fuck you they can send".
To give you an example - my dad had to take 2 boxes of Glivec per month to keep him alive(he was predicted to survive 3-6 months, thanks to Glivec he lived another 8 years). Glivec, last time I checked, is currently 12 thousand dollars a box in US. And sure, most health insurance in US would cover most of that. But if you have to take two $12k boxes per month, and insurer says they will cover $10k per box, you suddenly have to find $4k per month just to buy your life saving medicine. In effect sure, you have insurance, but unless you are rich, you are fucked. The whole idea of deductible on health insurance is pretty much a US-only invention, and it literally kills people who are in theory "covered".
As a fairly young US citizen I'm curious, I thought that most health care plans have an out of pocket maximum that is usually in the low to mid thousands per year. Would this situation not be one that limits the yearly cost that way?
I think the ACA also introduced the out-of-pocket limits.
No the older plans mostly had out-of-pocket limits, too.
At least the standard employment sponsored plans.
At least the standard employment sponsored plans.
Hmmm...perhaps the ACA changed the limits or something.
I thought my first (awful) plan had a benefit limit, as in you're getting a maximum of $1.25M from us, regardless of what happens.
I thought my first (awful) plan had a benefit limit, as in you're getting a maximum of $1.25M from us, regardless of what happens.
US median individual wage is $39K/yr for males and $26.5K/yr for females [1]. That amounts to an after-total-tax (for a California resident) of $28K/yr for males and $19K/yr for females.
Average rent ranges from $500-$3600/mth though for illustrative purposes (taking into account people in expensive places share) let's use $1K/mth for our hypothetical person. [3]
That leaves you with $16K/yr (male) and $7K/yr (female) for food, transportation and incidental expenses.
Obamacare backed health plans have a maximum out-of-pocket of $7K/yr for individuals.
Yeah, I'd say the median American is pretty much SOL if they get sick even if they have insurance. And those figures don't take into account the price of the insurance itself if your employer elects not to provide it to you.
In the UK your NHS annual out-of-pocket maximum is $0.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
[2] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
[3] http://mentalfloss.com/article/81296/average-cost-one-bedroo...
[4] https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-li...
Average rent ranges from $500-$3600/mth though for illustrative purposes (taking into account people in expensive places share) let's use $1K/mth for our hypothetical person. [3]
That leaves you with $16K/yr (male) and $7K/yr (female) for food, transportation and incidental expenses.
Obamacare backed health plans have a maximum out-of-pocket of $7K/yr for individuals.
Yeah, I'd say the median American is pretty much SOL if they get sick even if they have insurance. And those figures don't take into account the price of the insurance itself if your employer elects not to provide it to you.
In the UK your NHS annual out-of-pocket maximum is $0.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
[2] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
[3] http://mentalfloss.com/article/81296/average-cost-one-bedroo...
[4] https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-li...
> website crashes on election n...
US median individual wage is $39K/yr for males and $26.5K/yr for females [1]. That amounts to an after-total-tax (for a California resident) of $28K/yr for males and $19K/yr for females.
The tax calculator you reference includes estimates of sales, property, and fuel taxes (which make up much of the tax total at the incomes here), which are actually rolled into rent, transportation, and general purchases, so you are double counting some expenses.
US median individual wage is $39K/yr for males and $26.5K/yr for females [1]. That amounts to an after-total-tax (for a California resident) of $28K/yr for males and $19K/yr for females.
The tax calculator you reference includes estimates of sales, property, and fuel taxes (which make up much of the tax total at the incomes here), which are actually rolled into rent, transportation, and general purchases, so you are double counting some expenses.
Ah good catch. Probably still not wildly off for illustrative purposes.
But with such a low income you will receive either a Medi-Cal which is almost free or a substantial government subsidy to pay for your health plan.
Yes under 40k or so income insurance is free with no copay. Varies state by state etc.
Obamacare required all plans to have an out-of-pocket maximum. That may well go away now.
Obamacare added three provisions in particular that affected my family. Annual and lifetime caps on coverage were banned, dropping sick policyholders was banned, and all plans were required to set maximum out-of-pocket costs.
My family has easily hit the pre-Obamacare lifetime coverage limits and fairly frequently would've hit the annual ones. Our $4k out-of-pocket cap saves us from 10-50k in coinsurance/copays depending on the year. As a result, they'd drop us in a heartbeat if they could.
Soon, it looks like they'll be able to.
My family has easily hit the pre-Obamacare lifetime coverage limits and fairly frequently would've hit the annual ones. Our $4k out-of-pocket cap saves us from 10-50k in coinsurance/copays depending on the year. As a result, they'd drop us in a heartbeat if they could.
Soon, it looks like they'll be able to.
> "Soon, it looks like they'll be able to."
Based on what? You are just speculating now
Based on what? You are just speculating now
Based on Republican control of House, Senate, and White House, their having explicitly stated they'd repeal Obamacare, and the ability to do a lot of damage to the law without risking a filibuster (which they can do away with entirely, incidentally). http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/upshot/the-future-of-obama...
[deleted]
After two or three conservative justices are appointed the court your life will be mega affected. Are you gay? Kiss gay marriage goodbye. Right to privacy ? Gone. Wanna buy or own a sex toy? Those were illegal in many states until a progressive court put an end to it. A conservative court will absolutely reverse that.
This is a huge deal.
This is a huge deal.
Can you point to some supreme court cases? One that comes to mind is Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down the "sodomy law" by a largely republican court (I think only one or two justices were democratic at the time)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_County_v._Holder - aka gutting of Voter Rights Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC - aka "Companies are people and money is free speech"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC - aka "Companies are people and money is free speech"
That's a gross misstatement of Citizens United. People do not give up their right to free speech by forming a voluntary organization (aka a corporation). We know this is true because we allow corporations and organizations like the New York Times, the ACLU, and the Teamsters unions to have a right to free speech.
As for money being free speech, the equivalence is that in general it costs money to publicize views. The FEC has limits on what you can do with the money (you're not supposed to buy jewelry or fancy vacations) and where it can come from.
As for money being free speech, the equivalence is that in general it costs money to publicize views. The FEC has limits on what you can do with the money (you're not supposed to buy jewelry or fancy vacations) and where it can come from.
Gay marriage is here to stay because of a massive shift in public opinion on the issue which has been taking place over decades. None of that is going away.
I have a hard time believing you after Trump said that he would get someone to repeal Roe V Wade and now he has the house and senate to do it.
Trump said a lot of things. Often things that directly contradicted other things he said. What he really thinks is anyone's guess.
History is pretty consistent that candidates actually do try to enact what they say during campaigns... Anyone expecting a suddenly different President Trump vs. Candidate Trump will likely be in for a surprise.
It's funny how people think Trump lies about everything, except the promises they hate.
Trump has said many things that contradict reality. These are clearly lies. Trump has said many things that contradict other things that he has said. These indicate more lies. Trump has made many promises regarding policy. There is no reason to believe these to be lies. I am hopeful that they are, but it is just a hope.
Come on, be realistic. The guy would say anything to get votes. He is just like my Swedish politicians [0]. So what will the US and the rest of the world get? I don't know. You don't know. I'm not even certain that Trump knows.
I hope, as an European, Trump will be pro NATO enough to keep Putin from invading more countries...
Let's hope that Trump will look at who buys US stuff and who doesn't. And Russia is too badly managed to have a good economy and be a good partner for trade.
Nothing positive about Clinton implied, either.
[0] The Swedish ex communists have declared themselves a feminist party -- but stamp it as "racist" when immigrant women have problems with oppression in the immigrant areas... :-) They are courting the intolerant immigrant votes. I would dare anyone to find any more hypocritical political example anywhere, but... sadly, there certainly are.
I hope, as an European, Trump will be pro NATO enough to keep Putin from invading more countries...
Let's hope that Trump will look at who buys US stuff and who doesn't. And Russia is too badly managed to have a good economy and be a good partner for trade.
Nothing positive about Clinton implied, either.
[0] The Swedish ex communists have declared themselves a feminist party -- but stamp it as "racist" when immigrant women have problems with oppression in the immigrant areas... :-) They are courting the intolerant immigrant votes. I would dare anyone to find any more hypocritical political example anywhere, but... sadly, there certainly are.
He said a lot of things which appealed to certain voters but pretty clearly aren't going to happen. His style is to overstate. People on the other side taking his words literally has led to a lot of fear.
I hope you are right, I really do, but with the house, senate, presidency and SCOTUS tiebreaker slot, these are not impossibilities.
Congress, and 3 Supreme Court justices... it's going to be a bloodbath on civil liberties.
It depends which civil liberties, gun rights will hopefully be less threatened than with liberal SCOTUS.
You can already own and operate a fucking arsenal, what more do you want?
Well most of the state and city bans to limit the 2nd amendment were struck down by the courts.
So the left has been pushing 'back-door' laws that would do the same thing, effectively: huge taxes on ammo, letting manufactures be legally liable crimes committed with their sold weapons, etc.
Regardless of your views on guns, it is the 2nd Amendment - if the left wants to change it, there is a method to change the Constitution. Executive decisions and other nefarious schemas shouldn't be accepted.
So the left has been pushing 'back-door' laws that would do the same thing, effectively: huge taxes on ammo, letting manufactures be legally liable crimes committed with their sold weapons, etc.
Regardless of your views on guns, it is the 2nd Amendment - if the left wants to change it, there is a method to change the Constitution. Executive decisions and other nefarious schemas shouldn't be accepted.
Have you read Roe v Wade (or even the Constitution, for that matter) at all? Again, describe the mechanism by which this could happen.
Do you really not believe that these people will follow through with their campaign promises when they have the house, senate, and presidency? All it takes is a SCOTUS nominee, a new law defunding planned parenthood and/or banning abortion, and a challenge to the law to get struck down in the Supreme Court, all of which are now in their grasp.
I am talking about civil liberties in general. The mechanism for gay marriage would be similar.
As a footnote, yes, I have read the decision and I have read my constitution. Furthermore I don't think this is the right place for those kinds of ad-hominem attacks.
I am talking about civil liberties in general. The mechanism for gay marriage would be similar.
As a footnote, yes, I have read the decision and I have read my constitution. Furthermore I don't think this is the right place for those kinds of ad-hominem attacks.
"... a new law defunding planned parenthood and/or banning abortion"
Not giving Federal taxpayer money to PP doesn't stop them from doing abortions (they officially claim they use no taxpayer funds for abortion anyway), and you can't ban abortion via statute due to Roe v Wade having supremacy. (BTW, PP does a minority of abortions in the USA.)
Even if the USSC wanted to replace Roe v Wade, they can't just do that by decree. A relevant case that would give them that nexus would have to navigate itself all the way up the chain from Federal court through the corresponding Court of Appeals (assuming they even hear the case), winning all the way in courts laden with Obama appointees, to even get on the USSC's radar.
You didn't understand what you claim to have read.
Not giving Federal taxpayer money to PP doesn't stop them from doing abortions (they officially claim they use no taxpayer funds for abortion anyway), and you can't ban abortion via statute due to Roe v Wade having supremacy. (BTW, PP does a minority of abortions in the USA.)
Even if the USSC wanted to replace Roe v Wade, they can't just do that by decree. A relevant case that would give them that nexus would have to navigate itself all the way up the chain from Federal court through the corresponding Court of Appeals (assuming they even hear the case), winning all the way in courts laden with Obama appointees, to even get on the USSC's radar.
You didn't understand what you claim to have read.
I'm not sure I follow. Can't Congress just pass a law outlawing abortion, Trump signs, then it's the law? For the Supreme Court to overturn, there would have to a lawsuit to stop it.
No, for a variety of reasons. First of all, it wouldn't pass, because Democrats would vote 95% against and Republicans at most 75% for.
But even if it DID pass the House, the Senate would just filibuster it.
And even if by some miracle one was passed and signed, it would hit an immediate injunction from the Federal court of the abortion-backers' choice, using Roe as a precedent.
The concept makes for a good scare tactic to raise contributions and volunteers, but it goes nowhere in the real world.
But even if it DID pass the House, the Senate would just filibuster it.
And even if by some miracle one was passed and signed, it would hit an immediate injunction from the Federal court of the abortion-backers' choice, using Roe as a precedent.
The concept makes for a good scare tactic to raise contributions and volunteers, but it goes nowhere in the real world.
Oh that's cute, you think the filibuster rule is going to survive the first week of this congress?
> No, for a variety of reasons. First of all, it wouldn't pass, because Democrats would vote 95% against and Republicans at most 75% for.
Why do you believe this? On a night when the traditional polling and data mechanisms we have come to rely on have proven totally fallible, I have a hard time trusting ANY proposed split.
Why do you believe this? On a night when the traditional polling and data mechanisms we have come to rely on have proven totally fallible, I have a hard time trusting ANY proposed split.
Actually they can replace Roe V Wade because it's a ruling on the interpretation of laws that are amendable by the legislative branch.
I hope you are right about the courts laden with Obama appointees across the entire nation.
No, they can't. If you have any friends who went to law school, perhaps they could explain it to your satisfaction. Marbury v. Madison laid out these mechanisms over 210 years ago.
An an actual repeal of Roe v. Wade (or Casey v. Planned Parenthood) is unlikely. It's mainly red meat for the base. To actually do it would be political suicide of the type we saw when an unpopular ACA was passed.
So you mean political suicide like being elected for 4 more years?
All it will take is a reversion to "let the states decide", which may also be what we see with issues such as abortion. What scares me though, are the decisions like Citizens United, issues with privacy and regulatory oversight, and that kind of thing.
However, as long as you are not directly affected by any of those, e.g. you are not LBGTQ, you might consider staying to defend LGBTQ rights and thereby have a more meaningful impact. Even if you're not a politician, voting, educating your children and talking to friends and coworkers can have a significant impact.
Serious question from a non-American: What are the checks and balances on Trump? He has the presidency, House, Senate, and can tilt the supreme court. He's got a mandate to take action against the media and free speech on the internet. What's left?
If Clinton won, the republicans would probably have held one or both houses, which seems like significant checks on power even if she could have a more friendly supreme court than Obama.
If Clinton won, the republicans would probably have held one or both houses, which seems like significant checks on power even if she could have a more friendly supreme court than Obama.
The check and balance is that he has to get all those people to agree with him. Certainly on major issues where he aligns with Republican philosophy that might happen. But he's not a dictator that can do as he will tomorrow. If he decided he wants to transfer the entire U.S. treasury into his personal bank account he wouldn't be able to.
Certainly I doubt our founders thought an entire political party would control every single branch of government. But even if it does the only things that can be accomplished need to be agreed upon by that large group of people. If the will of the people is to elect a group of people into those positions that all hold the same philosophy and values, then that's just democracy. It's what we voted for. I don't know if any party has controlled all three branches of government at once, but it's not like that negates the principle of checks and balances
Certainly I doubt our founders thought an entire political party would control every single branch of government. But even if it does the only things that can be accomplished need to be agreed upon by that large group of people. If the will of the people is to elect a group of people into those positions that all hold the same philosophy and values, then that's just democracy. It's what we voted for. I don't know if any party has controlled all three branches of government at once, but it's not like that negates the principle of checks and balances
You mean where republican philosophy aligns with him. If you've followed the primaries he has ripped the republican playbook to shreds. They never wanted him as their candidate and now they can't hide from him. And for a lot of politicians their success is directly tied to his support.
I think we are closer to uncharted territory than a lot of people assume.
I think we are closer to uncharted territory than a lot of people assume.
I'm not sure that they put a lot of thought into the concept of political parties back then. To a large extent, modern democratic systems have been designed as a mechanism for free men to make collective decisions based upon their individual knowledge and conscience.
Political parties are just another application which happens to run well on top of the same OS.
Political parties are just another application which happens to run well on top of the same OS.
He's been reading Kurt Goedel's writings on the constitution, ... so he found there are none ;)
I don't know why you believe that, if anything his partisans were more pro-free speech than Clinton's ones.
Yes. I have two sisters that could lose access to birth control and planned parenthood. One of them dates a black man and already gets racial slurs thrown at them in public. These results are only going to embolden that behavior. America has voted for a mysogynistic sexist at its highest ceremonial office, you don't think that affects what is acceptable discourse? You don't think the SCOTUS is changed for a generation now?
"Yes. I have two sisters that could lose access to birth control and planned parenthood."
By what specific mechanism could a Trump presidency cause them to lose access to birth control or abortion?
By what specific mechanism could a Trump presidency cause them to lose access to birth control or abortion?
It's not just a trump presidency, it's a trump presidency rubber stamping a republican house and senate, which will follow through on their stated intention to install judges to repeal Roe V Wade, and to establish a more conservative, evangelical agenda.
That's a big oft-overlooked point: Trump seems to have much more moderate views on social issues than the Republican Party (and he didn't win on a very Republican platform), but the problem is that he also will likely not be in a position to contradict or overrule the party on those issues (or terribly inclined to do so in the first place).
The trend in the House and Senate and many state governments since 2008 is far more concerning to me than Trump's election.
The trend in the House and Senate and many state governments since 2008 is far more concerning to me than Trump's election.
> Trump seems to have much more moderate views on social issues than the Republican Party
Trump also doesn't seem to have much of a view at all, during campaign he expressed one thing and its opposite multiple times, he craves attention and acceptance and if the GOP does that (and lets him enact the petty revenges he's know for) I don't expect he'll have any issue enacting evangelical policies. Hell, he explicitly stated he'd leave the presidential busywork to his VP.
Trump also doesn't seem to have much of a view at all, during campaign he expressed one thing and its opposite multiple times, he craves attention and acceptance and if the GOP does that (and lets him enact the petty revenges he's know for) I don't expect he'll have any issue enacting evangelical policies. Hell, he explicitly stated he'd leave the presidential busywork to his VP.
<The trend in the House and Senate and many state governments since 2008 is far more concerning to me than Trump's election.>
Did you forget that the Democrats controlled the House and Senate until 2011? In fact, the Democrats had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate until February of 2010.
Did you forget that the Democrats controlled the House and Senate until 2011? In fact, the Democrats had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate until February of 2010.
Yes, they controlled it and then lost it. As opposed to controlling and maintaining. Doesn't that speak to a growing disconnect between them and the people voting on those seats (phrased as such to acknowledge both political changes and redistricting ones)?
Yes, it's the combo that I am worried about.
e.g., the nomination and appointment of a Justice:
See Currier:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/currier-v-jackson...
- https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/01/mississippi-abortion-cli...
Also see Whole Woman's Health:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/whole-womans-heal...
- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/supreme-court-texas-abo...
See Currier:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/currier-v-jackson...
- https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/01/mississippi-abortion-cli...
Also see Whole Woman's Health:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/whole-womans-heal...
- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/supreme-court-texas-abo...
The Republican party of Trump is not the Republican party pre-Trump.
That depends a LOT on which state you live in.
Live somewhere like CA? Hard to see the state government or Supreme Court rolling things back too terribly. Health insurance if you don't have a good job would be a big question mark, would be nice to see the state pick that up.
Live in a state where the legislature is inclined to pass laws against your sexuality, religion, etc? That's a much more vulnerable position.
IMO a much larger problem than Trump is the structural favoritism in the American political system towards less-populated areas. This has a lot to do with how Obama's last term was largely sabotaged as well, after all.
Live somewhere like CA? Hard to see the state government or Supreme Court rolling things back too terribly. Health insurance if you don't have a good job would be a big question mark, would be nice to see the state pick that up.
Live in a state where the legislature is inclined to pass laws against your sexuality, religion, etc? That's a much more vulnerable position.
IMO a much larger problem than Trump is the structural favoritism in the American political system towards less-populated areas. This has a lot to do with how Obama's last term was largely sabotaged as well, after all.
That "structural favouritism towards less populated areas" is a very old design feature of American democracy. Without it, everywhere but a small band in each coast would become politically irrelevant, much like it's already ignored by the media.
Nonsense.
Clinton's projected by the NY Times to win the popular vote by 1.2% right now. That's hardly a huge mandate for a singular agenda. It's a margin that would still be at massive risk if people continued ignoring those non-coastal populations feeling economically left behind.
Instead, despite that 1.2% lead for the Democratic presidential candidate, that party will be the minority party in every branch of government? That's a better, fairer system?
Structurally separating everyone into groups drifting further and further apart for everyone is a recipe for a system that can't get much useful stuff done.
(And the media ate up the Trump campaign despite it being incredibly unappealing to those small coastal bands. Nobody build an unassailable media monopoly by ignoring something like 48% of the population.)
Clinton's projected by the NY Times to win the popular vote by 1.2% right now. That's hardly a huge mandate for a singular agenda. It's a margin that would still be at massive risk if people continued ignoring those non-coastal populations feeling economically left behind.
Instead, despite that 1.2% lead for the Democratic presidential candidate, that party will be the minority party in every branch of government? That's a better, fairer system?
Structurally separating everyone into groups drifting further and further apart for everyone is a recipe for a system that can't get much useful stuff done.
(And the media ate up the Trump campaign despite it being incredibly unappealing to those small coastal bands. Nobody build an unassailable media monopoly by ignoring something like 48% of the population.)
She campaigned for the electoral vote, not for the popular vote.
You can't be sure that if, instead, the popular vote were used that she would have taken a different platform that was soundly rejected by most states but secured her a much larger popular vote margin.
You can't be sure that if, instead, the popular vote were used that she would have taken a different platform that was soundly rejected by most states but secured her a much larger popular vote margin.
"Clinton's projected by the NY Times to win the popular vote by 1.2% right now."
So much for any of their projections. The actual popular vote difference is 202,340 -- less than 0.17% of votes cast.
So much for any of their projections. The actual popular vote difference is 202,340 -- less than 0.17% of votes cast.
That sounds awful, until you realize just how many people live in those "small bands".
"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
Yeah, he also owned slaves, and fucked them. It's not as though everything that came out of his mouth was gospel truth.
That's absurdly naive, given the impact just one SCOTUS judge can have.
I mean, unless you're incredibly wealthy, and don't care about anyone else at all.
I mean, unless you're incredibly wealthy, and don't care about anyone else at all.
Climate change is real. The most important country electing a climate denier is more than just slighty depressing. It's a threat to zhe planet.
It's true, but at the end of the day you can already see that we're not going to do a damned meaningful thing about it whoever gets elected. The kinds of changes needed are not going to come about in a timely fashion, and when we start to move, it will be far too late (if it isn't already). On that point at least, our fate is sealed.
LGBT people, of which there are many here, have every reason to be afraid. Mike Pence has been vocal about his feelings w.r.t. how these people should be "treated".
And with the ability to set a Justice and a party dominated House and Senate, it does not look very good for "checks and balances" over the next 4 years.
And that of course assumes you're not subject to deportation for whatever reason. If Trump keeps any of his campaign promises we will be seeing many people forced out of the country. No idea what the extent of that will be, and at least some people here are first generation and claim to be anchors.
And with the ability to set a Justice and a party dominated House and Senate, it does not look very good for "checks and balances" over the next 4 years.
And that of course assumes you're not subject to deportation for whatever reason. If Trump keeps any of his campaign promises we will be seeing many people forced out of the country. No idea what the extent of that will be, and at least some people here are first generation and claim to be anchors.
This might be a surprise but I don't necessarily vote based on what I get out of it.
My wife is an American and we live together here in Denmark.
If you move, please reach out. We'll be glad to welcome you!
If you move, please reach out. We'll be glad to welcome you!
How did you handle permanent residency requirements for your wife?
I'm a Danish citizen, with the fiancé being a US citizen - and my understanding is that it wouldn't be easy for us to live in Denmark due to us having an unreasonable burden in demonstrating attachment to Denmark vs the US (https://www.information.dk/indland/2016/07/nye-regler-famili...) --- and with the president-elect having talked about pausing legal immigration for 1-2 years it makes for pretty scary times as my employer currently is applying for PERM status for me (meaning things could be paused randomly by the president - and with no where for us to go but maybe Canada/other European countries)
I'm a Danish citizen, with the fiancé being a US citizen - and my understanding is that it wouldn't be easy for us to live in Denmark due to us having an unreasonable burden in demonstrating attachment to Denmark vs the US (https://www.information.dk/indland/2016/07/nye-regler-famili...) --- and with the president-elect having talked about pausing legal immigration for 1-2 years it makes for pretty scary times as my employer currently is applying for PERM status for me (meaning things could be paused randomly by the president - and with no where for us to go but maybe Canada/other European countries)
She's doesn't hold a permanent visa yet. It needs renewal every year, and after 5 years, she just needs to apply for a permanent one. We were lucky, since I have 3 kids from a previous relationship, so my attachment to Denmark is nonnegotiable. It took 5 months for our family reunification visa to go through.
In regards to your visa in the US, I think you should just wait it out. I doubt it'll get paused overnight, since the business impacts would be too great.
In regards to your visa in the US, I think you should just wait it out. I doubt it'll get paused overnight, since the business impacts would be too great.
Generally speaking how is Denmark for Americans in terms of culture, job opportunities, cost of living, etc.?
I think the biggest obstacle was for my wife to connect with other Danish women. Basically how to find friends, since social norms and culture is different.
That lasted 6 months, and she now has a big group of friends consisting of expats/danes.
Job opportunities are very good, especially if you work within healthcare, engineering or similar fields. There's a shortage in the workforce for highly qualified workers.
That lasted 6 months, and she now has a big group of friends consisting of expats/danes.
Job opportunities are very good, especially if you work within healthcare, engineering or similar fields. There's a shortage in the workforce for highly qualified workers.
Pretty good. Lot's of opportunity for an American. Cost of living and taxes are very high, but then there is of course public healthcare, schools and education paid by taxes.
If that's OK with you, then go for it.
If that's OK with you, then go for it.
For Americans coming from NYC or SF, is the cost of living really that much higher?
I can only speak for myself having lived in Copenhagen/Boston/NYC; cost of living is lower in Copenhagen, but so are salaries, expect a huge cut in pay as well as on your ability to live a comfortable life on a tech salary.
In NYC I can do a normal sit down lunch at $40 multiple times a week, without really batting an eye - whereas that would be painful in Denmark - on the plus side you usually have catered lunch which quality, choice and taste wise is not nearly as good, but significantly cheaper and with it being better for team work within the company.
For health care you should expect longer lines and significant delays in case you have a non-urgent issue; whereas that in NYC is something you can handle easily by setting up an appointment on Zocdoc so that you can see a specialist the next day - with it being covered by your health insurance.
On a NYC tech salary I tend to buy gadgets / items as often as I want, if the cost is below maybe $200, in Denmark that threshold is more like $60.
Vacation policies are generally substantially better in Denmark; and workload also being significantly lower.
Pros and cons
In NYC I can do a normal sit down lunch at $40 multiple times a week, without really batting an eye - whereas that would be painful in Denmark - on the plus side you usually have catered lunch which quality, choice and taste wise is not nearly as good, but significantly cheaper and with it being better for team work within the company.
For health care you should expect longer lines and significant delays in case you have a non-urgent issue; whereas that in NYC is something you can handle easily by setting up an appointment on Zocdoc so that you can see a specialist the next day - with it being covered by your health insurance.
On a NYC tech salary I tend to buy gadgets / items as often as I want, if the cost is below maybe $200, in Denmark that threshold is more like $60.
Vacation policies are generally substantially better in Denmark; and workload also being significantly lower.
Pros and cons
Healthcare in Denmark is just fine in my opinion. We also hold a private insurance through work.
What is it you feel you need to wait for?
Also, in regards to salary: Yes, it's lower overall. But it's still high, especially in the tech sector. I get paid roughly the same as my US counterparts (we have offices in Copenhagen and New York).
What is it you feel you need to wait for?
Also, in regards to salary: Yes, it's lower overall. But it's still high, especially in the tech sector. I get paid roughly the same as my US counterparts (we have offices in Copenhagen and New York).
What is overall work/life balance like over there? And is it very different if you are not an in-demand engineer?
It's tough for me to say - I've generally been doing 40-70 hours a week in NYC, and average in Copenhagen is more like 35 (defacto); In NYC I'm expected - more or less - to be available 24/7 incase of outage / stability issues, wrt my company, whereas it in Denmark is more about the client/company adjusting to your work schedule, and them living with potential outages.
Here are some numbers you may or may not choose to trust: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
High cost of living, fantastic culture, job opportunities really depend on you.
Would Muslim Americans be welcome, given current trends?
Here is what a quick google search throws:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151220/05391733140/denma...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bi...
Suffice to say not exactly a paragon of liberty and freedom for all. But it might work for white techno elites for whom being not in US/UK and writing web apps is all they want.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151220/05391733140/denma...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bi...
Suffice to say not exactly a paragon of liberty and freedom for all. But it might work for white techno elites for whom being not in US/UK and writing web apps is all they want.
That law hasn't been used once.
It's also the same if you get government benefits. If your wealth exceeds 10.000 DKK, you will have to use your own money to get by, until you run out.
It's also the same if you get government benefits. If your wealth exceeds 10.000 DKK, you will have to use your own money to get by, until you run out.
I don't see why not?
Thing is you can move to pretty much any western state or large city and not have to deal with most of that. Portland, Seattle, SF, LA, LV, etc.
[deleted]
If you're in tech, Sweden is a more attractive opportunity. It's pretty similar to the Netherlands culture wise, but with a much bigger and faster moving tech scene.
That said, any in that line up will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US.
Source: I'm Dutch and moved to Sweden
That said, any in that line up will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US.
Source: I'm Dutch and moved to Sweden
Agreed on the culture-shock. None of it will be too bad, probably, but there are enough little differences that it'll take a while to adjust, and not all people can/will manage it.
Source: Scottish, moved to Finland.
(Biggest pain-points for me: the Finnish language, and the brutal winters.)
Source: Scottish, moved to Finland.
(Biggest pain-points for me: the Finnish language, and the brutal winters.)
If I'm programmer/developer looking for job in Sweden where can I find offers? How do you feel about taxes in Sweden? Aren't they very high in nordic countries?
I'm in Norway. And yes, taxes are high, but then again, they really aren't.
I think when I did the math, the taxes weren't really all that much higher than the taxes + health insurance costs in the states. It feels more like I'm paying a tax instead of outright fees for some things. Some I don't notice as much - such as the 25% VAT, mostly because it is included in the listed price.
Cost of living is high here, but Sweden is supposedly cheaper. Enough that there is a bus that goes over the border for Norwegians to shop.
I think when I did the math, the taxes weren't really all that much higher than the taxes + health insurance costs in the states. It feels more like I'm paying a tax instead of outright fees for some things. Some I don't notice as much - such as the 25% VAT, mostly because it is included in the listed price.
Cost of living is high here, but Sweden is supposedly cheaper. Enough that there is a bus that goes over the border for Norwegians to shop.
Here is a common job aggregator site for Sweden:
https://www.jobbsafari.se/jobb/it/systemutveckling
Most of the ads are in swedish, but google translate does a decent job of translating.
Don't be afraid to apply in english, majority of IT companies does not mind hiring english-only speakers.
Not sure about the rules on getting a work-visa in Sweden.
https://www.jobbsafari.se/jobb/it/systemutveckling
Most of the ads are in swedish, but google translate does a decent job of translating.
Don't be afraid to apply in english, majority of IT companies does not mind hiring english-only speakers.
Not sure about the rules on getting a work-visa in Sweden.
[deleted]
Looking at Reykjavik, Taipei, Lisbon, Santiago de Chile and Valencia (Spain). In addition to well-known places like Sydney, Copenhagen, Amsterdam.
Reykjavik is amazing, but I would get depressed by dealing with 21 hours of darkness in the winter.
Was in Reykjavik in June one year. It was cold, light and stunk. The cost of food was high.
But 21 hours of light in summer. :)
Also northern lights should be spectacular.
Also northern lights should be spectacular.
That does not offset it at all. Unless you've got a ridiculously strong character, or a group of friends that will force you to do something with them, I wouldn't recommend it. Or at least have a backup plan if you start going crazy by November.
(Source: own experience)
(Source: own experience)
IIRC it's actually the extended light which drives people to suicide there.
Copenhagen and Amsterdam are incredible places to live, and Amsterdam in particular has the benefit of a population which overwhelmingly speaks English, and is... a little less depressive than the Danish.
That said, god I love Denmark.
That said, god I love Denmark.
From a happy brit expat escaping brexit: give Lisbon a whirl! Moved here earlier in the year and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Glad you like it, I think it's a fantastic city to be in if you have a good job. Of course, you won't make insane amounts of money like in London or the US but since you're European I guess you already have a similar mindset.
This is what I like over here:
- Big city but you can walk almost everywhere - Weather is great - Airport is 20min subway from city centre - People are friendly, most speak some sort of english - Tech scene is getting better every year - No gentrification yet
There are advantages on being on central or northern europe instead, but if I was in my 20s I would definitely come to Lisbon.
This is what I like over here:
- Big city but you can walk almost everywhere - Weather is great - Airport is 20min subway from city centre - People are friendly, most speak some sort of english - Tech scene is getting better every year - No gentrification yet
There are advantages on being on central or northern europe instead, but if I was in my 20s I would definitely come to Lisbon.
Very true. I run my own business and so get the best of both worlds (UK salary, Lisbon cost of living) but it would be a harder choice if I was in my twenties and earning locally. I sincerely hope that will change for the better over the next few years as the Lisbon tech scene continues to mature.
I'm Portuguese and live near Lisbon (and used to work for a startup in Lisbon). If you're looking for high paying jobs, look elsewhere, as developer jobs here are around 1500€-1800€ / month (* 14 months, after taxes), way below what people are getting paid in other countries.
However, if you decide to live outside of Lisbon where rents are very high, that amount of money is enough for you to live well and even save some money if you're somewhat frugal. Also, the weather is usually quite nice here, and if you're into that kind of things, there's a booming tech scene is Lisbon (web summit is here for this week).
Unfortunately, most of the jobs people take here are on outsourcing companies, but there is an increasing number of jobs available on local startups. If you're planning to move here, check jobs in http://landing.jobs/ (mostly startups).
However, if you decide to live outside of Lisbon where rents are very high, that amount of money is enough for you to live well and even save some money if you're somewhat frugal. Also, the weather is usually quite nice here, and if you're into that kind of things, there's a booming tech scene is Lisbon (web summit is here for this week).
Unfortunately, most of the jobs people take here are on outsourcing companies, but there is an increasing number of jobs available on local startups. If you're planning to move here, check jobs in http://landing.jobs/ (mostly startups).
Haven't been to the other cities on your lists but Valencia is AMAZING!
Haha good luck on Taipei
Wait till you find out about Ireland's abortion laws! Trump is incredibly liberal on abortion when compared to Ireland's law!
>bitter uneducated whites
Why throw in 'whites' like it's some derogatory adjective? Are bitter uneducated blacks or hispanics preferable? Besides that, people without a college degree are not necessarily stupid or not allowed to have a voice.
Why throw in 'whites' like it's some derogatory adjective? Are bitter uneducated blacks or hispanics preferable? Besides that, people without a college degree are not necessarily stupid or not allowed to have a voice.
I'm not throwing anything in, I'm just describing the relevant demographic that's been unable to accept that Obama wasn't a "secret muslim" or "not really american" or some similar horseshit.
"attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities... There is something to be said for not having to deal with the ... insane levels of violence too."
If you just take the above elements of your reasoning, you've just described White flight.
If you just take the above elements of your reasoning, you've just described White flight.
I mean, if there was a State in the US where guns were realistically outlawed I'd move there too. Implying that is "white" flight is implying that white people are not major perpetrators of gun violence in America, which simply isn't true.
Gun violence in the US is a major problem and our gun ownership and sales policies are at the heart of it. I've considered moving my family away from it long before this horrifying outcome.
Gun violence in the US is a major problem and our gun ownership and sales policies are at the heart of it. I've considered moving my family away from it long before this horrifying outcome.
See https://www.statista.com/chart/3848/the-us-murder-rate-compa...
The murder rate for whites in the US (i.e. the rate at which whites are murdered) is 2.5 per 100,000 much lower than the overall murder rate of 5.2 per 100,000. This is still higher than most of the West, e.g. 70% higher than Canada. But not the "extreme levels" you referred to earlier.
And you didn't mention guns before, I'm assuming you don't really only care about violence that comes out of the barrel of a gun, and you're just adding this now to avoid discussing the link between race and crime.
The murder rate for whites in the US (i.e. the rate at which whites are murdered) is 2.5 per 100,000 much lower than the overall murder rate of 5.2 per 100,000. This is still higher than most of the West, e.g. 70% higher than Canada. But not the "extreme levels" you referred to earlier.
And you didn't mention guns before, I'm assuming you don't really only care about violence that comes out of the barrel of a gun, and you're just adding this now to avoid discussing the link between race and crime.
I'm not saying from it, although I think that it's not difficult to demonstrate that a disenfranchised group with poor economic prospects tends to self-radicalize.
I don't view a ton of difference between extremist terrorist conscription and, say, gang violence.
I think many of the same triggers are exploited. And you see those same triggers at play in traditionally white "militia" folks as well.
I don't view a ton of difference between extremist terrorist conscription and, say, gang violence.
I think many of the same triggers are exploited. And you see those same triggers at play in traditionally white "militia" folks as well.
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"There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites..."
This is exactly the sentiment that has brought us to this point. Either you are tolerant, inclusive or you are not. Try respecting the thoughts and options of others instead of leveling insults. Equality demands that people that differ from you still get a voice.
This is exactly the sentiment that has brought us to this point. Either you are tolerant, inclusive or you are not. Try respecting the thoughts and options of others instead of leveling insults. Equality demands that people that differ from you still get a voice.
Just forget Europe. It's ridden with socialists and laws slowing business to a halt. Add a failing currency to that cocktail and you have a failing economy. Of the whole of Europe, only Switzerland is somewhat attractive.
That's an odd way to put it. To counterbalance, europe in general is far less litigious and you get public healthcare. Come to to northern europe and you get a stable, very non-corrupt governance and a highly educated workforce.
US has huge internal markets - I would see this as the main benefit. Otherwise than that, if you make an actual good product, know marketing and are not terribly dependent on US VC money (which is hardly the only source of capital) I fail to to see the problem.
Sure, there are laws for holidays and such but that does not limit business, IMO, only the amount of arbitrary power employers have over their employees. It does not limit global market opportunities in any way.
It would be harder to launch a service like Uber though that tries to take on entrenched incumbent local players. Target global b2b or consumer markets and the problem goes away.
All of this is my personal understanding, and I might be wrong. If so, then please educate me with countering facts.
US has huge internal markets - I would see this as the main benefit. Otherwise than that, if you make an actual good product, know marketing and are not terribly dependent on US VC money (which is hardly the only source of capital) I fail to to see the problem.
Sure, there are laws for holidays and such but that does not limit business, IMO, only the amount of arbitrary power employers have over their employees. It does not limit global market opportunities in any way.
It would be harder to launch a service like Uber though that tries to take on entrenched incumbent local players. Target global b2b or consumer markets and the problem goes away.
All of this is my personal understanding, and I might be wrong. If so, then please educate me with countering facts.
Canada has public healthcare as well, although it's probably worse than US paid for healtchcare. Public healthcare usually means long queues and substandard health services. It's okay if you're poor, but that's why in Europre we also paying for private health insurance when we can afford it. In the US you have the option not to pay for health insurance, in Europe you have to pay for it regardless of what you get in return. France is probably different, but Franch healthcare is going broke so it will only get worse if they don't do something about it soon enough.
Most of the big business in Europe is either 1. American 2. state owned or 3. companies founded before before WW1. It's almost impossible to launch a company with a growth rate compared to that of Uber in Europe. You would get kocked down by taxes and regulations before you know it.
Most of the big business in Europe is either 1. American 2. state owned or 3. companies founded before before WW1. It's almost impossible to launch a company with a growth rate compared to that of Uber in Europe. You would get kocked down by taxes and regulations before you know it.
All healthcare systems have their faults. It isn't like folks never wait for care in the US: Some folks wait months for a neurologist, for example, mostly becasue they are booked up.
I'm in Norway. There is public health care. Sometimes there is a wait, sometimes not. You have the option to pay for private care, if you want. But I'm never going to have to worry about not being able to afford care. This alone makes a huge lifestyle change. Not just for me: But for children and lots of other folks as well.
In addition, some caveats of care are much better here. You can choose the cheaper but better outcomed care option. For example, they send a nurse out to someone's house up to 6 times a day before someone is eligible for a nursing home. Even if you live in a secluded spot on a mountain or island. Why? It is cheaper and folks tend to live longer this way.
I'm in Norway. There is public health care. Sometimes there is a wait, sometimes not. You have the option to pay for private care, if you want. But I'm never going to have to worry about not being able to afford care. This alone makes a huge lifestyle change. Not just for me: But for children and lots of other folks as well.
In addition, some caveats of care are much better here. You can choose the cheaper but better outcomed care option. For example, they send a nurse out to someone's house up to 6 times a day before someone is eligible for a nursing home. Even if you live in a secluded spot on a mountain or island. Why? It is cheaper and folks tend to live longer this way.
Home health is a significant practice in the US. I can't give a pithy summary of it, but Medicare pays for it in many situations where a nursing home is not medically necessary.
https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/home-health-services.html
https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/home-health-services.html
from the link:
You're not eligible for the home health benefit if you need more than part-time or "intermittent" skilled nursing care.
Now, the mouse over says that 'part time or intermittent' means less than 7 days each week or less than 8 hours each day over a period of 21 days or less - unless you have special circumstances. In other words, sure, as long as it is temporary.In addition, you have to be homebound, only leaving for short, infrequent things for medical care, religious services, and the like.
I'm not even sure most folks know that stuff exists judging by how many people take care of their elderly parents. Perhaps it is much like disability and they turn down a lot of people?
Here it isn't a short term situation. You get a nurse for up to 6 visits a day, even if you need all 6 visits every day for 10 years. In fact, you aren't eligible for a nursing home unless your needs exceed this. It isn't so much if you are homebound, but that you need the medical care (though you might be mostly homebound with that).
You're not eligible for the home health benefit if you need more than part-time or "intermittent" skilled nursing care.
Now, the mouse over says that 'part time or intermittent' means less than 7 days each week or less than 8 hours each day over a period of 21 days or less - unless you have special circumstances. In other words, sure, as long as it is temporary.In addition, you have to be homebound, only leaving for short, infrequent things for medical care, religious services, and the like.
I'm not even sure most folks know that stuff exists judging by how many people take care of their elderly parents. Perhaps it is much like disability and they turn down a lot of people?
Here it isn't a short term situation. You get a nurse for up to 6 visits a day, even if you need all 6 visits every day for 10 years. In fact, you aren't eligible for a nursing home unless your needs exceed this. It isn't so much if you are homebound, but that you need the medical care (though you might be mostly homebound with that).
Perhaps it is much like disability and they turn down a lot of people?
Reimbursement for a stay in a nursing home would also be subject to a doctor deeming it necessary (and also whatever rules Medicare has about it), home care is just a lower level of care in that sense.
I wasn't really trying to compare the programs, I just saw the possibility in your comment that were not very aware of it in the US.
Reimbursement for a stay in a nursing home would also be subject to a doctor deeming it necessary (and also whatever rules Medicare has about it), home care is just a lower level of care in that sense.
I wasn't really trying to compare the programs, I just saw the possibility in your comment that were not very aware of it in the US.
I probably compare out of habit. I'm American and am immigrant here in Norway - I note differences, and the stuff that is similar isn't so noteworthy. Neither system is perfect.
Reimbursement for the nursing homes... admittedly, most of what I know about payment for american nursing homes is probably rumor, "friend of a friend lost had to sell the house for the nursing home payment" sort of thing. Didn't pay much attention, then was taught the cost in class here in Norway.
Reimbursement for the nursing homes... admittedly, most of what I know about payment for american nursing homes is probably rumor, "friend of a friend lost had to sell the house for the nursing home payment" sort of thing. Didn't pay much attention, then was taught the cost in class here in Norway.
Yeah, coverage is limited. There are a wide variety of long term care options that can easily run into thousands per month, so someone with a fixed income that won't cover that will end up selling assets until they qualify for Medicaid.
" It's almost impossible to launch a company with a growth rate compared to that of Uber in Europe. "
I'm pretty sure the market is filled with unregulated niches that don't require you to shift the balance of the universe to be successful.
Yes, US seems to be winning in terms of environment which facilitates the rapid growth of paradigm shifting companies. I did not claim otherwise - I merely countered the proposal that it would be counterproductive to try to do business in Europe altogether. Not as inducive to growth is a different thing from disabling profitable companies altogether.
I'm hard pressed to quantify the quality of public healthcare. Patient outcomes are a different thing than what the service feels like. I agree, it's sometimes painstakingly hard to find good healthcare but in my experience that applies to both public and private as equally - the more rare the condition, the harder it is to find a helpful diagnosis and a plan to proceed.
The professional capability of the tending doctor is the most critical factor. I've met outstanding professionals in the public space and private clinic doctors who have been sloppy and unattentive - and vise versa.
Of course, if budgets strain, the quality of care decreases.
I'm pretty sure the market is filled with unregulated niches that don't require you to shift the balance of the universe to be successful.
Yes, US seems to be winning in terms of environment which facilitates the rapid growth of paradigm shifting companies. I did not claim otherwise - I merely countered the proposal that it would be counterproductive to try to do business in Europe altogether. Not as inducive to growth is a different thing from disabling profitable companies altogether.
I'm hard pressed to quantify the quality of public healthcare. Patient outcomes are a different thing than what the service feels like. I agree, it's sometimes painstakingly hard to find good healthcare but in my experience that applies to both public and private as equally - the more rare the condition, the harder it is to find a helpful diagnosis and a plan to proceed.
The professional capability of the tending doctor is the most critical factor. I've met outstanding professionals in the public space and private clinic doctors who have been sloppy and unattentive - and vise versa.
Of course, if budgets strain, the quality of care decreases.
Not everyone considers incubating their Shttr app to be the be all and end all.
Good luck with being an immigrant in Switzerland.
Yeah, I can't think of many places with steeper hurdles to citizenship, although Japan laps them in that race.
Only if you speak German and are able to deal with their not very welcoming nature, you might stand a chance. I know a couple of expats who had everything in their favor (language, skills, local connections) and after 5-10 years still decided to move to Austria and Germany.
That must have been exceedingly difficult, after so much time invested in Switzerland!
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> Just forget Europe.
It is hard to take somebody serious who lumps together all countries from Europe. May I ask in which one you live?
It is hard to take somebody serious who lumps together all countries from Europe. May I ask in which one you live?
Correct me if I'm wrong but lots of people here seem to think that Europe is some kind of progressive booming social-democratic economy/society with free health/education and all. The trend here IMHO is exactly the same trend that put Trump in office - only in Europe (having some more historic experience with such things) we do things a bit more hardcore. Extreme right wings (fascists) are getting more and more power, nationalistic views abound in all states, welfare state is being dismantled, etc. Our 'Mexicans' equivalent are people fleeing from war zones (Syria, Afganistan, etc) that get dumped in buffer Southern states (mainly Italy/Greece). Economy is in shambles for most countries (add in the terrible lock-ins caused by common currency). Each state is mostly looking after its own interests when there are big issues (war) at EU periphery.
...
Do I need to go on?
Fleeing USA for EU is like jumping a flaming ship for a ship that is half-sunk.
My 2 cents.
My 2 cents.
It did happen with Vietnam draft evaders. There is an entire generation of former Americans born in Australia and Canada: like Mel Gibson and Stewart Butterfield of Flickr/Slack.
Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those.
I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.
Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those.
I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.
And somehow I have little sympathy for people who want to leave the US for political reasons but have a problem with countries where wealth is distributed more evenly.
If you're a software engineer working in Canada, you can get a 50% pay bump just by crossing the border.
My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.
My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.
By the way, if you want to be 300% ahead of your peers, get that remote job, sell your house, close your bank accounts in Canada, and seek non-resident status. Travel the world and bank that extra $70000 a year that would have gone to taxes. Ten years doing that and you can probably retire.
Speaking as someone who did that, and is amazed that it doesn't occur to more people. It's not for everyone, probably most people can't just up and move, their spouse likely can't get a job elsewhere that easily, and there is the question of what to do for the kid's education. If you're single though, you're crazy to stay.
Speaking as someone who did that, and is amazed that it doesn't occur to more people. It's not for everyone, probably most people can't just up and move, their spouse likely can't get a job elsewhere that easily, and there is the question of what to do for the kid's education. If you're single though, you're crazy to stay.
> After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers
Not for long -- America just out brexited the U.K.
Not for long -- America just out brexited the U.K.
The effect that will have on the Canadian dollar remains to be seen. I don't expect it to strengthen anytime soon. It fell in reaction to the news.
There are three major things that hinder Canadian startups:
- Small internal market
- Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude
- Lack of money (see point above)
If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play.
That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.
- Small internal market
- Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude
- Lack of money (see point above)
If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play.
That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.
Canada is not about to be run by a bullying sex pest and his running mate, the man who thinks the way to cure gay people is electroshock therapy. There is literally no comparison. Refugees do not care about whether they could earn more.
I traveled around Europe and South America for five months recently (digital nomad)... The common question was "...why do you think the US has the technology and opportunities that it does...". My honest answer... Less regulation and an attitude of do what it takes to be successful in the early days. The hustle.
That sounds a lot like it. It seems impossible to get filthy rich in Canada and even less in Germany where I currently live.
You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?
> You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?
This does not apply only to high-income Americans. In fact, the downsides of a reduced salary are much worse for people with average and low incomes.
It's become pretty obvious since the 2008 recession that people of low incomes, or even average incomes, have few means to control the circumstances of their lives. They are at the mercy of economic and political forces beyond their control. Another recession would victimize them again, and they would be powerless to improve their circumstances.
Americans moving to Canada, whether or not they are high-paid tech workers, will almost certainly take a lower salary in Canada than the one they have in the US, for doing the same job. The safety net in Canada isn't that much better than the one in the US, aside from the obvious exception of free health care. So, a lower salary would be a pretty big sacrifice to make, because it would worsen the problems I mentioned above.
This does not apply only to high-income Americans. In fact, the downsides of a reduced salary are much worse for people with average and low incomes.
It's become pretty obvious since the 2008 recession that people of low incomes, or even average incomes, have few means to control the circumstances of their lives. They are at the mercy of economic and political forces beyond their control. Another recession would victimize them again, and they would be powerless to improve their circumstances.
Americans moving to Canada, whether or not they are high-paid tech workers, will almost certainly take a lower salary in Canada than the one they have in the US, for doing the same job. The safety net in Canada isn't that much better than the one in the US, aside from the obvious exception of free health care. So, a lower salary would be a pretty big sacrifice to make, because it would worsen the problems I mentioned above.
To paraphrase: A society with less internal division seems appealing until you realise is has redistributive taxes that give people the chance to say no to explotative wages.
I would say that the US is pretty much unique in this respect, and you would experience the same tradeoffs in most (all ?) of Western countries outside of it.
Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes.
Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.
Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes.
Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.
That's very true. Not for any political reasons, but I've always wanted to work in the EU (I lived there several times but was working) but everytime I look at salaries in Berlin or the NL or similar, it occurs to me that'd it be a better idea to just work here and save for a few more years, and then go there without the need to get a job.
I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).
I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).
The situation for devs in Canada is so much worse than in an American tech hub. It's actually pretty ridiculous. Everyone I know in Canada is intent on eventually relocating to NYC/SF/Seattle/LA because the jump in QOL is so huge.
If one believes that parts of the global economy, especially the US and UK ones, are going to tank, does it even matter?
Life is not all about money, if it was, most people on this site who live in US will be heading to Silicon Valley.
Notably, the Canadians in my various social media feeds were not talking about moving back.
Canada seems appealing to Americans until they show up and realize other than healthcare, it's pretty much exactly the same place.
Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto.
The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.
Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto.
The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.
Albertan here: Your redneck stereotyping is way off.
Montreal startups hiring:
-Transit (transitapp.com)
-Unsplash (unsplash.com)
-Hopper (hopper.com)
-Breather (breather.com)
-Sonder (sonder.com)
-Busbud (busbud.com)
-AmpMe (ampme.com)
-Fuzzy AI (fuzzy.ai)
-Frank & Oak (frankandoak.com)
You can get a pretty nice 1 BR apartment in Montreal for ~$600 US/mo. Incredible bars, beautiful people, great schools, bike paths, and lots of outdoor rinks to play hockey in the winter :-)
FYI: Montreal startups operate in English!
-Transit (transitapp.com)
-Unsplash (unsplash.com)
-Hopper (hopper.com)
-Breather (breather.com)
-Sonder (sonder.com)
-Busbud (busbud.com)
-AmpMe (ampme.com)
-Fuzzy AI (fuzzy.ai)
-Frank & Oak (frankandoak.com)
You can get a pretty nice 1 BR apartment in Montreal for ~$600 US/mo. Incredible bars, beautiful people, great schools, bike paths, and lots of outdoor rinks to play hockey in the winter :-)
FYI: Montreal startups operate in English!
Also : immigrating to Canada is time-consuming and exhausting (typically 1 year and lots of paper work) but going to Canada with a work visa is quick and painless. Most of the time, startups are taking care of the paperwork and can even help of the relocation. And if you really like the place, after a few months, you can then apply for immigration.
Is there an age limit?
Busbud (busbud.com) is as well.
but a crazy provincial government and high taxes.
crazy is relative ;)
The OQLF (aka "Quebec language police") is relatively in the Trump class.
(No personal experience, but this is what my French-speaking relatives in Quebec say, and the occasional news seem to match it.)
(No personal experience, but this is what my French-speaking relatives in Quebec say, and the occasional news seem to match it.)
It's really not that bad. It's mainly there to make sure companies don't alienate Quebec's native french speaker. You can do fine in the Qc tech industry even if you barely understand french (Source: personal experience)
As a Canadian in Germany, you seen nuthin'
The German tax ROI seems much better to me, but I miss my $575 Montreal rent.
The German tax ROI seems much better to me, but I miss my $575 Montreal rent.
But no bikeshare in the winter :(
Unlike SF, we have great public transit! Most startups are a 5 minute walk from a subway stop, and it's cleaner/less crowded. Few people own cars here. (But granted, the snow is no joke!)
As a New Zealander who is unable to move anywhere else due to immigration laws. I am happy for you, but the Jealousy is real.
Working Holiday Visa depending on your age will get you 2 years in Canada.
Just ShovelShare(tm) :)
People are not going to move. After every single election in France people say they will move to the US, or to germany, or to... I've never seen anyone moved anywhere.
ps: parts of my family moved out of Hong Kong when it became Chinese again. But that was quite a different situation.
ps: parts of my family moved out of Hong Kong when it became Chinese again. But that was quite a different situation.
Things mostly have not become bad enough to move. I think Trump will be more Berlusconi than Mussolini. I hope so at least. I also wonder what it'd take to make us grab what we can and get out. If things start heading that way, it's a decision you really, really don't want to put off too long.
I can't believe this is the first time I've seen anyone compare Trump to Berlusconi. It's spot on.
I hope so. Berlusconi "only" contributed to Italy's economy stagnating for 20 years and loss of standing in the eyes of the world. He wasn't really a fascist, much as some on the left tried to label him one.
I can't believe this is the first time I've seen someone NOT compare Trump to Hitler.
I have always felt that Mussolini was a more apt comparison. For one thing, nobody's ever heard of Trump shout himself hoarse about Lebensraum. (And without Hitler's aggression, it's highly doubtful that Mussolini would have gotten himself involved in a European war.)
“Yes, he rejects modernism, appeals to a selective populism, and espouses a cult of machismo.”
http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/the-important-thing
http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/the-important-thing
For what it's worth I find the Mussolinian architecture extremely modernist and quite interesting (https://www.google.ro/search?q=architettura+fascista+italia&...). Whenever I visit Italy I always find some interesting building or public-works structure from the Mussolini era which I photograph.
> I can't believe this is the first time I've seen someone NOT compare Trump to Hitler.
What those two have in common is they fit the definition of the word 'demagogue' 100%, point by point. Along with many, many others (numerous political figures in Europe in the '30s, Huey Long, senator McCarthy, etc).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
Hitler, however, was far more effective than everyone on that list.
Well, at least so far. But even so, Hitler's charisma and ability to emotionally be a puppet master to enormous masses while spewing bullshit appears to be unparalleled in history.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Berlusconi comparison seems best. Knock on wood.
What those two have in common is they fit the definition of the word 'demagogue' 100%, point by point. Along with many, many others (numerous political figures in Europe in the '30s, Huey Long, senator McCarthy, etc).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
Hitler, however, was far more effective than everyone on that list.
Well, at least so far. But even so, Hitler's charisma and ability to emotionally be a puppet master to enormous masses while spewing bullshit appears to be unparalleled in history.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Berlusconi comparison seems best. Knock on wood.
> Hitler's charisma and ability to emotionally be a puppet master to enormous masses while spewing bullshit appears to be unparalleled in history.
This seems a bit broad.
This seems a bit broad.
Well, the metric I was using was the effects on the whole world. Perhaps there are better metrics than that, I don't know.
I moved to Canada from the US because of the G.W. Bush presidency. I'm not claiming it's statistically important, but my family moved. I'm lucky enough to be employable wherever I choose to live, so I exercised that power. Maybe you can too.
Are you glad to have moved? Any recommendations on cities to look at?
I live in Vancouver. Cost of living looks bad. Quality of life is good. I look out of the window of the window of my smallish condo at the beautiful mountains and all seems well.
It's tough to live in this town on the median local income. Get a very good job before you move here. There are much more affordable Canadian cities with the same social deal and without the Vancouver housing crisis. But if you can make it work, this is a nice place.
It's tough to live in this town on the median local income. Get a very good job before you move here. There are much more affordable Canadian cities with the same social deal and without the Vancouver housing crisis. But if you can make it work, this is a nice place.
I'd add "don't plan on living in Vancouver itself". Vancouver is like San Francisco: A relatively small and frequently dysfunctional city surrounded by a much superior metropolitan area. I'd suggest Burnaby or Coquitlam as places with a better lifestyle at a lower cost.
I'm from the Coquitlam/Burnaby area (Burquitlam they call it). It's where you go when you want to live close to vancouver but also have a detached house, although in recent years that has also become unattainable.
It's a suburban area though, which is great if you're into that. If you want an urban car-free experience there's only a very tiny part of downtown, yaletown and maybe olympic village that will accomodate that.
It's a suburban area though, which is great if you're into that. If you want an urban car-free experience there's only a very tiny part of downtown, yaletown and maybe olympic village that will accomodate that.
Living next to a sky train station gives me a pretty urban experience. I have a car, but I only use it quite rarely.
Stay away from Vancouver. Between the cost of living, low wages, and (What passes in Canada as an) extreme right-wing provincial government, it's a horror show.
To give you another data point, I love Vancouver. It's simply beautiful.
Agreed. You have to deal with unbelievable weather much of the year. Then there's those oppressive mountains just to the north and the incredible skiing within an hours drive. Next you have to deal with the all the beautiful scenery, awesome hiking and biking. It's just horrible. Don't move to Vancouver.
Not sure about wages. I feel I'm paid a fair salary.
Not sure about wages. I feel I'm paid a fair salary.
> You have to deal with unbelievable weather much of the year.
As the saying goes - "It rains only once, but for seven months (October through April)."
> oppressive mountains
Actually, said mountains limit traveling northbound (there's a single road that goes to Whistler), there's an ocean to the west, farmlands to the east and the US border with few hour wait crossing times to the south. So you are basically stuck in the city. It is a big city and lots to do, granted, but after a while it gets stale.
> incredible skiing, biking, hiking
... which don't move a needle unless you are a hardcore outdoorsman.
Not to forget the real estate chokeful of Chinese money and priced out of reach. School system that is focused on producing tolerant citizens rather than someone how knows what an integral is, etc.
On the plus side - a mild climate, very good restaurant scene, nice people and nearly free medicine (which is too not without its headaches).
To each his own, basically.
As the saying goes - "It rains only once, but for seven months (October through April)."
> oppressive mountains
Actually, said mountains limit traveling northbound (there's a single road that goes to Whistler), there's an ocean to the west, farmlands to the east and the US border with few hour wait crossing times to the south. So you are basically stuck in the city. It is a big city and lots to do, granted, but after a while it gets stale.
> incredible skiing, biking, hiking
... which don't move a needle unless you are a hardcore outdoorsman.
Not to forget the real estate chokeful of Chinese money and priced out of reach. School system that is focused on producing tolerant citizens rather than someone how knows what an integral is, etc.
On the plus side - a mild climate, very good restaurant scene, nice people and nearly free medicine (which is too not without its headaches).
To each his own, basically.
It's the same climate as Seattle.
Also, the Chinese real estate situation is the same as here in SV.
Also, the Chinese real estate situation is the same as here in SV.
I was out walking around in shorts and a t-shirt yesterday, comfortably. High of 17 degrees. I've never done that in Canada, and I used to be much less of a wuss about the cold. The climate in Vancouver really is hard to beat in Canada.
incredible skiing within an hours drive
Hey, be fair. You have to drive 1.5 hours to get to the best ski resort in the world.
Hey, be fair. You have to drive 1.5 hours to get to the best ski resort in the world.
Yes. Be wary. I lived in Vancouver for 3 years, 2012-2015. Those mountains sucked. As did the ocean. And the ability to walk everywhere downtown. Total pain being able to walk to work, shop, dine, etc.
kidding aside ... Yes ... I earned less $ ... But was ok with it.
Out of curiosity, what was the specific reason?
That's kind of funny. French people is the single biggest source of expats (if we ignore domestic helpers) in Hong Kong. Seems to be very common for French people to emigrate.
I remember seeing some article about French brain drain being extremely systematic now, especially among the better schools. Get free schooling in France, then leave.
Obviously I'm in a bit of a bubble (having done this myself) but a lot of my college friends left the country too.
Obviously I'm in a bit of a bubble (having done this myself) but a lot of my college friends left the country too.
Schooling in France is definitely not free. Public schools (the ones that are free) represent very little amount of the Masters Degree. Most are private schools and cost ~7-10k euros per year.
> Public schools (the ones that are free) represent very little amount of the Masters Degree
I think you're talking about business schools. Almost all reputable engineering schools are virtually free, as well as all universities.
I think you're talking about business schools. Almost all reputable engineering schools are virtually free, as well as all universities.
To add to this:
"Virtually free" can mean somewhere around 2000 Euros a year. A lot of people get aid (I didn't have to pay for my last year thanks to this). Plus most engineering schools don't really use textbooks, so you don't have much in extra expenses apart from a laptop.
Yes, taxes pay for this, but that was my out-of-pocket for schooling.
"Virtually free" can mean somewhere around 2000 Euros a year. A lot of people get aid (I didn't have to pay for my last year thanks to this). Plus most engineering schools don't really use textbooks, so you don't have much in extra expenses apart from a laptop.
Yes, taxes pay for this, but that was my out-of-pocket for schooling.
Nope. Most are free.
You do have to pay for some business schools, but what people say on that: you pay for your diploma.
I have friends who went to some private schools for computer science and it seems like it's a good path for some of them (around 8k euro/year)
You do have to pay for some business schools, but what people say on that: you pay for your diploma.
I have friends who went to some private schools for computer science and it seems like it's a good path for some of them (around 8k euro/year)
Seems unlikely that migrating from France to Hong Kong would be motivated by political reasons (unless you want less democracy). I'm guessing financial motivations dominate.
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French tourists are very common in Japan, although I think it might be because of exposure to pop culture rather than emigration. They have an unfortunate habit of strip-mining retro video game stores and reselling everything at ten times the price back home.
I think that's incredibly naive. For one thing, moving from France to Germany is a huge cultural and linguistic leap. Moving from the US to Canada is really not.
I did not think about that, it's true that it's relatively easy for an American to move to Canada.
I recently moved from France to Germany, and the biggest cultural gap so far is that people in here respect traffic lights and using a qwerty keyboard. Otherwise, most people speak English and the lifestyle is similar.
You did not look close enough. French and German culture are very different. How work is done, how meetings are held, being on time, eating, restaurants in general and the food and the drink. Also how friendships work. I'd say french and german culture is one of the most distant in all of (western?) europe.
You have more english speakers in Germany, and the lifestyle is similar, but the lifestyle is similar in all of Europe and even in Europe and USA. But that does not make the culture the same.
You have more english speakers in Germany, and the lifestyle is similar, but the lifestyle is similar in all of Europe and even in Europe and USA. But that does not make the culture the same.
> How work is done, how meetings are held, being on time, eating, restaurants in general and the food and the drink. Also how friendships work. I'd say french and german culture is one of the most distant in all of (western?) europe.
Would love to know more. I like to think I know a little about French culture (or could make a guess at it) but I've never been to Germany.
Would love to know more. I like to think I know a little about French culture (or could make a guess at it) but I've never been to Germany.
When talking about culture like this, it is always easy to venture into the ordinary, meaningless differences. But I will provide some examples. Together they maybe form a picture.
Germans have that klischee about being punctual and organized, no? Well, it is true, and it is very different in France. Meetings don't start on time, even in the workplace. But also when you meet up with friends, you don't have to be there on time, and it is seldom expected. It is not as crazy as in Africa or latin america, but if you meet in a bar at 7pm people will arrive 7:15 or 7:30. That was difficult in the beginning. Of course, also happens in Germany, but to a lesser extent.
This translates to other things: I was the first PhD student of my french professor who actually finished his thesis before the deadline. We made a plan, I sticked to it. She fully expected we would run late and was quite surprised. Also, in the international project I was working on, our french colleagues had the tendency to not fully respect the deadlines. That was actually a positive thing, because the deadlines were crazy and instead work was always done when needed, not when the plan saw it fit, leading to a better work distribution.
Food. The coffee is different in France. Meals take longer, also the lunch break does. Entrée, main course, dessert – way more common to have it all. There is a whole restaurant culture in France that is way different than in Germany, with people of the middle class eating in restaurants every week at least once, and with many many more restaurant than in an equally sized german town.
There is also a difference in how people dress. Depends on the place and setting of course, and you can't easily compare Berlin and Paris anyway. But still, it is noticeable also in other cities. There is another standard.
The thing with friends is hard to describe and it also changes anyway depending on age and setting, no matter where you are probably. And I won't go into the topic of women. Something else then: You have in France these really friendly french men who really talk a lot. Very easy to talk to, as they will just start the conversation and help you along, which is quite nice when you meet new colleagues. But in Germany that would mean that someone is really interested in becoming a friend. Here it is just the default for some, it means nothing special.
Germans have that klischee about being punctual and organized, no? Well, it is true, and it is very different in France. Meetings don't start on time, even in the workplace. But also when you meet up with friends, you don't have to be there on time, and it is seldom expected. It is not as crazy as in Africa or latin america, but if you meet in a bar at 7pm people will arrive 7:15 or 7:30. That was difficult in the beginning. Of course, also happens in Germany, but to a lesser extent.
This translates to other things: I was the first PhD student of my french professor who actually finished his thesis before the deadline. We made a plan, I sticked to it. She fully expected we would run late and was quite surprised. Also, in the international project I was working on, our french colleagues had the tendency to not fully respect the deadlines. That was actually a positive thing, because the deadlines were crazy and instead work was always done when needed, not when the plan saw it fit, leading to a better work distribution.
Food. The coffee is different in France. Meals take longer, also the lunch break does. Entrée, main course, dessert – way more common to have it all. There is a whole restaurant culture in France that is way different than in Germany, with people of the middle class eating in restaurants every week at least once, and with many many more restaurant than in an equally sized german town.
There is also a difference in how people dress. Depends on the place and setting of course, and you can't easily compare Berlin and Paris anyway. But still, it is noticeable also in other cities. There is another standard.
The thing with friends is hard to describe and it also changes anyway depending on age and setting, no matter where you are probably. And I won't go into the topic of women. Something else then: You have in France these really friendly french men who really talk a lot. Very easy to talk to, as they will just start the conversation and help you along, which is quite nice when you meet new colleagues. But in Germany that would mean that someone is really interested in becoming a friend. Here it is just the default for some, it means nothing special.
For having moved to quite a bunch of places in my life (and also had a german girlfriend), France and Germany have a pretty similar culture. There is a lot of influence between the two countries.
Don't they use QWERTZ keyboards?
Yes. And France is AZERT and UK is almost like the US one but with minor differences
But I just set it to US-Intl (wherever the place) and be done with it. I don't look at what's drawn on the keyboard
But I just set it to US-Intl (wherever the place) and be done with it. I don't look at what's drawn on the keyboard
It's fairly easy to order a US or British keyboard in most of Europe, for no additional cost.
We'll buy whatever layout new staff want, but we keep spares of these two around.
(British gives the European physical layout with the additional key and double height enter key.)
We'll buy whatever layout new staff want, but we keep spares of these two around.
(British gives the European physical layout with the additional key and double height enter key.)
Yes :)
Having lived in France I'd say switching from the French keyboard to most other western layouts is especially brutal (or making the switch in the other direction). Took me a good while to readjust to the numbers being on shift and the special characters being the default. Very brutal for passwords :D
Having lived in France I'd say switching from the French keyboard to most other western layouts is especially brutal (or making the switch in the other direction). Took me a good while to readjust to the numbers being on shift and the special characters being the default. Very brutal for passwords :D
Yes, we use QWERTZ in Germany, but it's muuuch closer to QWERTY than France's AZERTY (needs shift for numbers!). The difference between QWERT{Y,Z} is those two keys (Y and Z are swapped), the shape of the enter key (necessitated by an additional key), and basically all of the special keys. Many of those moves are due to ä/ö/ü/ß. Meanwhile, AZERTY is very different, and even typing alphanumerical things requires paying serious attention to key placement if not used to it.
Moving from France to Belgium (in Wallonia where they speak Franch) is not a huge cultural or linguistic leap. As both countries are in the EU, it's very easy to emigrate; no visa needed. But as far as I know, there was no sudden emigration to Belgium after elections in France.
Wait until after the Presidential election this spring... it is looking like it will be Sarkozy vs Le Pen or Juppe vs Le Pen in the run-off round.
No, it isn't, and people learn the language
I think you're underestimating just how trying a process that can be, and how alienating it is to adapt to a new culture, new food, new everything.
You're talking about two neighbouring countries, apart from language there are no major issues
Besides, I've moved to Germany, from a more distant culture than French
Besides, I've moved to Germany, from a more distant culture than French
Right, they're practically identical... except for the language. And the culture. And the food, politics, etc... etc...
The difference in culture may be there, but it is as big and sometimes much bigger between citys and countryside, regions and social classes. It may be a factor but the as I think main reason most people do not move is not any barrier in the different style of life but more so the fact of moving, getting a way from your sorroundings, friends, family etc. altogether
If you're lacking in historical knowledge then I can't help you
Besides, most of the differences are non issues
Besides, most of the differences are non issues
To you? Maybe.
Are you going to starve because in France they have Quiche and in Germany they have Schnitzel?
But yes, I'm good at adapting
But yes, I'm good at adapting
I believe that you are, and in being so, have lost sight of just how bad most people are at it.
It all depends on individuum. I moved two countries to-date that couldn't be more culturaly and language different. I did learn languages before I moved though. Both me and my wife adapted within a week.
I know of a family (2A+3C) who were unhappy with the direction the UK were taking, and so moved to Sweden.
Obviously it's more said than done, but it happens and I admire those who follow through.
Obviously it's more said than done, but it happens and I admire those who follow through.
I moved UK->DK a year ago, ahead of the rush. I said I would, if UKIP got too many votes in the European election.
Since then, two friends have moved from London to Berlin, two others are planning to move to Frankfurt, two others have job offers in Stockholm or Malmø. (This is three couples.) Another friend has applied for a position in Lund.
Only 3/7 of these people are British, so the other 4 have already made a similar move.
Since then, two friends have moved from London to Berlin, two others are planning to move to Frankfurt, two others have job offers in Stockholm or Malmø. (This is three couples.) Another friend has applied for a position in Lund.
Only 3/7 of these people are British, so the other 4 have already made a similar move.
I also did this, London -> Malmo, just after the Tories came to power outside of a coalition (and for that reason), then brexit.. no regrets so far.
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It entirely depends on how bad a Trump presidency turns out to be.
If you hold him to his campaign promises, at least 11 million Americans will leave.
If you hold him to his campaign promises, at least 11 million Americans will leave.
Campaign promises are made to get elected, not to be kept. Given Trump's tendency to speak, shall we say, "freely", he is likely to be a much more moderate president than his campaign promises would suggest. Not that that is saying very much, but I think much of the panic and disbelief surrounding a Trump win arises from taking his words too seriously and too literally.
All I can say is that if your hope for a politician hinges on him not doing what he's expressly said he plans to do many times, that's a terrifying situation to be in.
It will be interesting to see if people leave specially if announcements were made on FB/Twitter. The convenience of online medium and harshness of offline life can't be beat.
They'll try, but I don't think very many countries will be interested in taking them.
If Le Pen manage to be president in May 2017, I'll seriously consider moving from the country. But to go where? Maybe Luxembourg, they've got a shit ton of work in my field (web dev), they pay way more than in France but life is a bit more expensive and foreign workers aren't apprecieted in the whole country.
With Trump elected today, the right wings movement in France will get bigger :(
I will leave France too if Le Pen get elected, as a foreigner in France, there will be no chance to stay here.
I moved from France to Germany already. If you work in software and don't like the direction France is taking, it's a no brainer.
Most don't, some do.
I myself moved from Switzerland to Colombia. Among other reasons because I wanted a break from the Swiss cultural and political climate.
But for me, emigrating isn't a definite thing. At least as long as I don't have children. Maybe I'll stay, maybe go back, maybe move somewhere else after a while.
I myself moved from Switzerland to Colombia. Among other reasons because I wanted a break from the Swiss cultural and political climate.
But for me, emigrating isn't a definite thing. At least as long as I don't have children. Maybe I'll stay, maybe go back, maybe move somewhere else after a while.
As someone who spent ten years in Panama and working for a Swiss company, that must have been a culture shock after Switzerland. Did you speak Spanish before you moved?
Added up, I have spent almost two years in Latin America prior to moving here. Just traveling the first time and traveling plus working remotely the second time. So I already spoke the language quite well and roughly knew what to expect. I didn't expect the grass to be greener. Just greener in some parts, browner in others.
Also I like being culture shocked – it tends to widen my horizon :)
Also I like being culture shocked – it tends to widen my horizon :)
Yeah definitely greener in some places and browner in other, I couldn't agree more. But it was a good experience for me too, I married a Panamanian. Plus no income or property tax was just an incredible benefit, I miss that a lot! I'll go back there when I can, just for the taxes.
Those who have not lived outside of the US (or NA) don't realize how hard life is for the rest of the world; most will just move right back within months.
Been there myself. Life ain't easy out there.
Edit - A little bit of context here: I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in a developing country rife with racial and political problems. My point is, a lot of people who are yelling about immigrating due to the election result are overly naive with their outlook. It takes an incredible amount of effort to adjust to a new environment, not to speak of giving up the connections and comfort they have in the US. It's not as easy as just "moving to another country".
Been there myself. Life ain't easy out there.
Edit - A little bit of context here: I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in a developing country rife with racial and political problems. My point is, a lot of people who are yelling about immigrating due to the election result are overly naive with their outlook. It takes an incredible amount of effort to adjust to a new environment, not to speak of giving up the connections and comfort they have in the US. It's not as easy as just "moving to another country".
Canada and the US are virtually equivalent in most respect for jobs, standard of living etc... I'm from Canada, and now live in the US, I lived in north Florida and have seen people struggle incredibly compared to anyone I can think of in Canada. Even the poorest in Canada can at least see a doctor when they really need it. I know many people who are about to lose their only option to healthcare if ACA is repelled. They'd be better off in Canada.
> I know many people who are about to lose their only option to healthcare if ACA is repelled. They'd be better off in Canada.
Canada doesn't accept immigrants with expensive pre-existing conditions though. Much like insurance companies pre-ACA.
Canada doesn't accept immigrants with expensive pre-existing conditions though. Much like insurance companies pre-ACA.
Have you ever been to a reserve in Canada?
Reserves in the US aren't any better.
On the other hand, life as a lower class non-native person in Canada is far better then that of a lower class non-native person in the US.
On the other hand, life as a lower class non-native person in Canada is far better then that of a lower class non-native person in the US.
Some of them are truly shocking. My mind is consistently blown when I go because I don't get that remote more than a few times a year but they are unbelievable.
It's bad I know, but as other pointed out it's no worse then some of the poorest areas of the US.
Huh? How is life hard outside the US unless you're in a really undesirable part of the world?
Are you kidding? I've lived in Ireland, Kuwait, Holland, Greece... and only Greece was "hard" in any meaningful way.
Added an explanation to my comment.
A friend of mine moved from California to Madrid last month.
Because of politics? Or other reasons?
I'm not 100% sure: here's a quote –
'I didn't "flee" America. What I fled are tribalistic homo-apes who have reverted back to simply responding to their instincts. Just a bunch of reactionary emotions without rational thought.'
'I didn't "flee" America. What I fled are tribalistic homo-apes who have reverted back to simply responding to their instincts. Just a bunch of reactionary emotions without rational thought.'
More rain, different money but might not be that difficult
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Yeah, because it turns out you can't just waltz over the border to Canada and expect to be greeted with open arms as we do in the US.
I assume you're American and have had no experience with the US immigration system? Because they definitely do not do that in the US.
"Waltz over the border" implies illegal immigration. Which we kinda have a soft spot for in US.
I would wager it's easier to waltz over the US-Canada border than the US-Mexico border if you were so inclined.
Getting across the border is the easy part - getting healthcare, a drivers license, a job etc would be the hard part. Those are much easier to pull off sneaking in to the US than Canada.
You can do it accidentally in a few towns and I've crossed the US-CA border into the states before where we had to wake up the border guard.
There are many places in Washington state where one can walk (or dance) into Canada. Rather un-guarded border.
TN-1 NAFTA visas pretty much work that way... for as long as NAFTA exists...
As a TN-1 holder, I'm terrified.
As a Canadian who moved away, I must warn you that Canada has a form of dutch disease. Resource extraction investments have a much better risk/return ratio, so the pay doesn't even approach US levels. Thus software doesn't approach the levels of investment you have in the USA. And you thought SF was bad, wait until you see what has gone wrong with the housing markets in Toronto and Vancouver.
I liked Canada and it's sad that I have to live away from my family, but I would be a fool to stay otherwise.
I liked Canada and it's sad that I have to live away from my family, but I would be a fool to stay otherwise.
I moved to Toronto from the UK, received a solid 25% increase in salary and cut my rent expenditure in half.
Houses are expensive here but still cheaper than London or SF.
Canada isn't all doom and gloom.
Houses are expensive here but still cheaper than London or SF.
Canada isn't all doom and gloom.
This. Canadian salaries are low, compared to the US. They're much better than Europe.
The "dutch disease" went away with falling oil prices. I agree that the housing markets in Vancouver and Toronto are nuts, but until today it looked like they were cooling down.
Unfortunately, we might see another spike in foreign investment in Canadian housing thanks to this election...
Unfortunately, we might see another spike in foreign investment in Canadian housing thanks to this election...
Rent in Toronto is way, way cheaper than in San Francisco.
And the pay much less.
Real estate is much more reasonable in Montreal or in Calgary. And there are startups hiring also in those cities
Could you expand on the reasons why you'd be a fool to stay? Thanks.
When I was interviewing in vancouver and seattle, the seattle offer was about double. Housing and everything else cost less and the income tax rate was lower. Back then the currencies were even. Now they are not, so its an even better idea to work in the USA. You pay off student loans and save money that much faster.
Soon after I moved to the bay area because the companies there were more interesting, but the pay was probably about even compared to seattle.
That is why it would of been foolish to stay.
Soon after I moved to the bay area because the companies there were more interesting, but the pay was probably about even compared to seattle.
That is why it would of been foolish to stay.
What would have happened if Rob Ford had been elected PM?
you can just read this to get a pretty good idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Harper#Prime_Minister_...
I don't really get the mindset of "if Trump wins I'm moving to X country." The citizens in all of those countries are much more scared of a Trump presidency than Americans seem to be. It stands to reason that the best place to weather a Trump administration is from within the U.S.
I mean, when your guy is threatening to disband NATO, tear up NAFTA (and rejects free trade as a whole), reinstate torture as official policy, etc...would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?
I mean, when your guy is threatening to disband NATO, tear up NAFTA (and rejects free trade as a whole), reinstate torture as official policy, etc...would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?
As someone from a country which strongly depends on NATO (Lithuania, former Soviet state, shared border with heavily militarized Russian territory Kaliningrad), you are spot on.
Lithuania, another NATO country which contributes about half of what they're supposed to to the collective defense.
Sorry :(
Do you think Twitter/FB commenters are dead serious about moving? To me it is at same level as today's lunch photos: just grab attention and likes by whatever means.
> would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?
I guess it depends on whether you're a minority or not, doesn't it?
I guess it depends on whether you're a minority or not, doesn't it?
Democratic voters always say something similar to some degree when a republican president (and only president) gets voted in.
I would advice anyone considering moving to a different country to spend some time studying FATCA. Even if you move out of the U.S you will still be responsible for filing taxes every single year unless you renounce your citizenship which is not easy by any means. Foreign banks are required by FATCA law to pass all your financial information to the I.R.S and in some countries they will downright refuse opening a bank account for american citizens to avoid this nuissance.
It's annoying and maybe a little invasive, but it's not impossible. The FBAR takes about 10 minutes to fill out and submit, and the bank may want a few extra forms if you earn a lot of interest.
Taxes are annoying, but between treaties and the foreign income exclusion or credit, you probably won't be double-taxed.
Taxes are annoying, but between treaties and the foreign income exclusion or credit, you probably won't be double-taxed.
The US has tax treaties with just about anywhere good want to go, so no double-taxation. (And no, paying income tax in two countries is not double-taxation.)
Unlike just about any other country in the world, the US will tax you even if you don't live or derive your income there.
Furthermore, also unlike every other country in the world, the US will only deduct the paxes you paid in the other country from the taxes it thinks you owe it on income you earn+spend while living abroad. Every other country considers your tax obligations fulfilled.
Furthermore, also unlike every other country in the world, the US will only deduct the paxes you paid in the other country from the taxes it thinks you owe it on income you earn+spend while living abroad. Every other country considers your tax obligations fulfilled.
However, you can either
1) Exclude the first ~$100k from your US taxes altogether, or
2) Receive a credit for taxes paid to the other jurisdiction.
Most places, particularly those where you'd earn a high salary, have higher tax rates (particularly if taxes cover what would be health insurance in the US), so the credit often completely cancels your US taxes.
In many places with lower taxes, it's fairly difficult to earn $100K to begin with, so you're covered there too.
The two situations which are tricky are 1) Earning a lot in a low-tax location (maybe oil workers?) 2) Having income from a mix of US and non-US sources (renting out your American apartment?) since your US income gets "bumped up" to the tax bracket associated with your worldwide income.
Most places, particularly those where you'd earn a high salary, have higher tax rates (particularly if taxes cover what would be health insurance in the US), so the credit often completely cancels your US taxes.
In many places with lower taxes, it's fairly difficult to earn $100K to begin with, so you're covered there too.
The two situations which are tricky are 1) Earning a lot in a low-tax location (maybe oil workers?) 2) Having income from a mix of US and non-US sources (renting out your American apartment?) since your US income gets "bumped up" to the tax bracket associated with your worldwide income.
Yes. And because of the tax treaty you get a tax credit for the foreign income tax paid, hence it's not double-taxation.
If you need to leave the U.S. consider moving to Australia. (I did) The cost of living here is high, but the salaries are very high for professionals. If you are a talented thrifty person - you can save a lot of money fast. Good surfing too.
For startups. you get about ~50c back on the dollar from the gov't annually. You don't need to make a single dollar in profit to get that, it is based on the invested capital.
Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.
For startups. you get about ~50c back on the dollar from the gov't annually. You don't need to make a single dollar in profit to get that, it is based on the invested capital.
Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.
Hi grizzles,
as a european currently vliving in Austria I am quite interested in relcoating to Australia for the weather and the people but I'm not sure how the tech scene is over there for EE jobs like Embedded Software/Firmware Engineer.
I had a quick look on indeed but I wasn't very lucky.
Try seek.com.au. It's the biggest job site here by a big margin. Also I know someone that is looking for an EE, so you can send me your cv (email in profile) too if you wish.
I don't even know how to respond to this. People die trying to make it into the U.S. I'm not a flag-waving jingoist, but the the United States is a f'ing great place to live.
That depends on what you compare it to. Plenty of first world countries are ahead of the US in many important aspects. But if you're setting the bar on the level of Russia or some third world countries, then yeah, it's pretty great.
The US is ahead of plenty of first world countries in many important aspects.
- Unemployment rate and job openings
- Economic growth
- Disposable income
- Household income
- Low middle class tax rates
- GDP per capita
- Economic productivity
- Wealth creation opportunities
- Access to capital and investment
- Diversity (most competing first world nations are very homogeneous)
- Scale and variety of industry, the US is the #2 manufacturing nation for example
- Freedom of speech and ease of movement
- Tech infrastructure
- Best universities on earth
- By far the highest research & scientific output of any nation
- Leadership positions in: pharma, biotech, genetech, aerospace, software, Internet tech broadly, cloud, ecommerce, mobile, artificial intelligence, virtual reality, space / space tech, defense / military, agriculture, electric vehicles, nuclear and other energy fields, one of the leaders in solar, and numerous other fields
- America's median standard of living is still among the top dozen nations on earth
- Unemployment rate and job openings
- Economic growth
- Disposable income
- Household income
- Low middle class tax rates
- GDP per capita
- Economic productivity
- Wealth creation opportunities
- Access to capital and investment
- Diversity (most competing first world nations are very homogeneous)
- Scale and variety of industry, the US is the #2 manufacturing nation for example
- Freedom of speech and ease of movement
- Tech infrastructure
- Best universities on earth
- By far the highest research & scientific output of any nation
- Leadership positions in: pharma, biotech, genetech, aerospace, software, Internet tech broadly, cloud, ecommerce, mobile, artificial intelligence, virtual reality, space / space tech, defense / military, agriculture, electric vehicles, nuclear and other energy fields, one of the leaders in solar, and numerous other fields
- America's median standard of living is still among the top dozen nations on earth
Sure, it is a rich and developed country after all. It's not horrible. It's just not really special if you're looking out for your own quality of life as opposed to how prominent the country is.
This is doubly so if you don't associate with the stereotypical American lifestyle of working 50 hours a week, 10 days vacation per year, and sending out work emails while holding your newborn baby.
Listing specific things is pointless – all these ratings are online anyway, but just to name a few:
- fucked up health care system
- gun violence rate higher than in most third world countries
- homicide rate worse than any other developed country, and worse than countries like Niger, Laos, India, or Iran
- those best universities will put you in a $200K+ debt hole that you'll spend a lifetime getting out of, and the mediocre universities are not cheap either (compared to almost free education in many developed countries)
This is doubly so if you don't associate with the stereotypical American lifestyle of working 50 hours a week, 10 days vacation per year, and sending out work emails while holding your newborn baby.
Listing specific things is pointless – all these ratings are online anyway, but just to name a few:
- fucked up health care system
- gun violence rate higher than in most third world countries
- homicide rate worse than any other developed country, and worse than countries like Niger, Laos, India, or Iran
- those best universities will put you in a $200K+ debt hole that you'll spend a lifetime getting out of, and the mediocre universities are not cheap either (compared to almost free education in many developed countries)
Yeah, it's pretty good.
Will Trump keep it that way?
Will Trump keep it that way?
Those same people that would die trying to make it into the US are now going to be turned away if they do make it. The America that prides itself being a destination of salvation for immigrants is not the America that Trump wants to create.
It is. It won't be next year.
My original plan was to move and telecommute, but that's kind of fucked because the dollar is crashing.
My original plan was to move and telecommute, but that's kind of fucked because the dollar is crashing.
If you're afraid of the US President, moving abroad isn't helpful. His domestic power is severely limited and checks-n-balanced.
Granted, that only counts for fear of a semi-tyrannical president, not necessarily for economic concerns.
Granted, that only counts for fear of a semi-tyrannical president, not necessarily for economic concerns.
One of the things that could make this the most important presidential election in history is that there could be an unprecendented number of Supreme Court nominations in the next 4-8 years. That, to me, is what makes this such an important election since the SC has, in my opinion, been stepping beyond its power in the last 10 years so the utility of nomination becomes even more important.
Other than that, you're right, House and Senate control is far more important. But don't underestimate these god-awful presidential signing statements that have become so popular. Appointed cabinet positions can make quite a difference depending on the domain. There are other ways to side-step the separation of powers.
Other than that, you're right, House and Senate control is far more important. But don't underestimate these god-awful presidential signing statements that have become so popular. Appointed cabinet positions can make quite a difference depending on the domain. There are other ways to side-step the separation of powers.
This is breathtakingly naive. The man has coasted to power on a wave of vicious prejudice. Go back and look at the highlights of the GOP convention to get an idea of how he intends to govern.
Republicans won the House and Senate too, and he gets to appoint probably 3 justices to the Supreme Court.
So it'll be a more unified government than you've seen in a long time, which makes Trump able to get a lot of his platform through.
It's a great time to live in America.
So it'll be a more unified government than you've seen in a long time, which makes Trump able to get a lot of his platform through.
It's a great time to live in America.
What's that anyway, besides 'building a wall and make Mexico pay for it'?
Well, there's putting the brakes on globalization, fewer foreign wars, lower government spending (and probably some progress on reducing the national debt, which has increased more in the last eight years more than all of the 232 years prior to that, combined), among other things.
You do realize that the US is relevant only because of globalization?
Relevant to whom? While international friendship is great, we don't have to bomb anyone to be happy ourselves. Arguably, less international aggression would make the world in general happier as well.
Relevant at science, technology, economy, everything related.
I do not mean military relevance and some nebulous definition of being a superpower.
Trump's tax plan involves adding significantly to the debt:
https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/budgetary-impac...
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-trai...
It's the same sort of thing as a lot of left wing policitians favour. Incur a lot of debt, and then that's going to cause so much growth that you'll come out smelling of roses.
https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/budgetary-impac...
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-trai...
It's the same sort of thing as a lot of left wing policitians favour. Incur a lot of debt, and then that's going to cause so much growth that you'll come out smelling of roses.
Left wing politicians tend to do things that are actually useful with that money though. Trump just gives himself tax breaks.
He has his 'contract with the American voter' on his site:
https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/_landings/contract/O-TRU-102...
The big ones are term limits for Congress and lower taxes.
https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/_landings/contract/O-TRU-102...
The big ones are term limits for Congress and lower taxes.
The big one is the climate change issues.
And the Supreme Court ouch.
Also health care.
On the dooms day clock of climate change, the time is past midnight. This is not good.
On the dooms day clock of climate change, the time is past midnight. This is not good.
Mexico will be paying in Pesos, because US$ just got 12% more expensive for them in the last 8 hours.
Not any more. Bush and Obama really pushed the boundaries of what's possible with executive actions. He's also going to have the most invasive surveillance state in human history at his fingertips, and he's surrounded himself with people who love to settle scores.
[deleted]
I stick to George Carlin's advice: I'm in the front seat and I want the best entertainment. And Trump will deliver the best entertainment of all candidates! I'm staying to watch this circus, pass the pop corn!
Corp tax in Ontario is 15% and free health care. Dev pay also comparable.
Come over :)
Come over :)
Comparable to where? Not the Bay Area. I interviewed for a remote position with a Canadian company a while back, and they weren't able to pay me anywhere near a market rate Bay Area salary.
Cool, how welcoming are they to non Western immigrants? And also recent graduates?
My wife is a non-Western immigrant (English is her third language). She says she's never faced any discrimination and many people assumes she was born here (in Toronto). Non-white people are very common and very accepted in Toronto.
Toronto is really diverse, and a very welcoming city.
60% of Toronto is foreign born.
Very welcoming. I was born in Brazil, being here over a decade.
What's the average tech salary for a 5 years+ experienced programmer (ruby, golang, etc)?
80-90k, my first job out of school was ~75k.
60k CAD
It is definitely not 60K. I made more than that way back when I was a new grad.
Congratulations.
[deleted]
I'm Canadian. Dev pay is not comparable unless your margin of error is literally tens of thousands of dollars.
Cost of living in Toronto is roughly 30% cheaper than SF:
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-fra...?
So a 15-20% salary reduction probably puts you ahead.
So a 15-20% salary reduction probably puts you ahead.
Every good dev I know makes 100K+, some make 150K+ and cost of living is much less.
Every good dev I know makes 100K+ and cost of living is much less.
Every good dev I know makes 100K+
It seems like it would be more useful for Silicon Valley to just put their money where their mouth is and declare war. Fund education like crazy, pour a ton of money into environmental causes and just go nuts. Create a useful America.
Despite the caring face that most startups put up they all have to make money to survive. Only when they grow really big can they even think of pursuing social goals and even then they will have opposition from the shareholders.
There actually are more options than just the Canadian cities and there's a site for figuring out your best options: http://teleport.org
My girlfriend and I (Both software devs) would gladly move to Canada with the help of a company employing us. Almost immediately. We have little to no attachment to our current city of Portland.
You may want to come check out Toronto before moving here. A great event to see what the City's tech scene is like is HackerNest. It's once a month. You could probably also line up some interviews for your trip.
Research TN-1 visas. No labour market assessment required. Need to have a degree or other significant experience though.
TN-1 is because of NAFTA. (Source: http://www.canadiansinusa.com/Working-in-the-US/tn-visa.html).
Trump is well-known for being extremely against NAFTA.
Trump is well-known for being extremely against NAFTA.
What is considered significant experience?
Re-reading it, it looks like it's "Individuals may be eligible for one of the TN visa categories that only require a 2 year post-secondary diploma and 3 years of experience".
There's lots of minefields. I've never done it, just familiar with it.
There's lots of minefields. I've never done it, just familiar with it.
The major tech centers in Canada have major housing price issues. The housing to salary ratio in Vancouver and Toronto are terrifying.
Montreal's housing is comically affordable compared to most cities on the east and west coasts.
Everything is on par with or cheaper, East of Montreal.
What? There's not much of anything east of Montreal. IBM did (does?) have some offices in the Eastern Townships, but that's not very far from Montreal.
Looking at a map, I see Sherbrooke, Quebec City, Fredricton, then Moncton, and Halifax. Quebec City is probably the largest at about ~500k people, and has some tech industry. Dalhousie University in Halifax has some decent science programs too. After that, the next biggest tech center is probably London.
Looking at a map, I see Sherbrooke, Quebec City, Fredricton, then Moncton, and Halifax. Quebec City is probably the largest at about ~500k people, and has some tech industry. Dalhousie University in Halifax has some decent science programs too. After that, the next biggest tech center is probably London.
An exception is Waterloo.
But Waterloo isn't a great city to live in. Especially for young professionals, Waterloo is not nearly as exciting as Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.
I think Kitchener-Waterloo (~300k people) punches above its weight. It definitely feels like a small city, but there are still things to do. Plus Toronto is 1.5 hours away on a Greyhound bus for about $15. ;)
Waterloo demographically compares to Raleigh. I make no judgement about relative merits of living there, but just in size it's small.
[edit] just Raleigh mind you, The Triangle is much bigger than that.
[edit] just Raleigh mind you, The Triangle is much bigger than that.
If any of you have seen an Ottawa winter, you'll understand that the one guy on the night-shift there is too busy trying to figure out how fast he can get to Australia.
In 20 years Ottawa will be sub tropical thanks to global warming ;)
I totally agree - the problem is that for every degree of warming Trudeau will raise the carbon tax 5%.
No surprises. It runs on Windows with IIS as the web server [0].
[0] http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.cic.g...
[0] http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.cic.g...
Leaving the country over an election like this seems pretty childish IMO. Why wouldn't you wait until there was, you know, some kind of policy change before making that kind of massive life decision?
Because, frankly? A country that is down with electing somebody who overtly panders to white supremacists is not a country I really want to be in. A country that elects somebody who thinks electrocuting teenagers to cure homosexuality is not a country I really want to be in. I don't need to see what they will do to know what they have done.
I don't intend to move stupidly, and I don't intend to unless I can better my situation--but I wasn't even considering it yesterday, and I am now.
I don't intend to move stupidly, and I don't intend to unless I can better my situation--but I wasn't even considering it yesterday, and I am now.
You are so brave for quitting the moment your political ideals are challenged. /s
The people that voted in trump represent about 1/5th of the population. How about sticking around and fucking participating rather than expecting a political free ride?
The people that voted in trump represent about 1/5th of the population. How about sticking around and fucking participating rather than expecting a political free ride?
I have lived extensively in NL and Denmark. Would give an arm and a leg to move there again. Need to find a job for myself and wife there
What is it like for an American making the move? What were the best and worst parts?
First paying the heavy Dutch taxes, then having to pay US taxes because you're still a citizen.
If you actually did that, you're either making tons of money regardless or doing your taxes wrong.
The US has a tax treaty with the Netherlands, so there is no double-taxation.
What happened or didn't happen to the people running the site between 2004 and now when GWB was re-elected? You'd think that you should be shoring up the website seeing spikes for a while, and it's been over 10 years since that site crash and populations haven't gotten an order of magnitude higher exactly.
If it happens once every 8 years I can understand that the wouldn't care much. Do you expect them to employ expensive services that would cost them a lot of money to stop that just for one day? It's government, they just live with it.
I've worked in government before and understand bureaucracy but there's a certain level of quality even they have standards for. Most government sites aren't massive volume transactions but primarily static brochure type sites that may need some occasional updates making them suitable for many commercial CMSes that are well known and easy to optimize. Adding caching for documents that are almost never updated and adding a CDN layer for the application are inexpensive compared to writing and even hosting the CMS itself (usually on rather expensive TCO on-premise infrastructure). Furthermore, this kind of upgrade helps fulfill use cases of access and availability to government-provided services that is the spirit of the law in many developed countries, especially as citizens increasingly reach to online services for their interaction with governments.
This site is done separately. Your entire application, from initial contact to permanent residency or citizenship, is handled through this website, entirely through submission of electronic forms. While it's basically a form-and-image-and-pdf-and-docx-grabbing site, that's still a step or two above brochure-and-static.
[deleted]
Let's get real. No one is going to Canada. This is just grist and posturing for the social media mill. But it's still fun.
Trump does not take himself seriously, so why should you. The trump presidency is going to be a clusterfuck, gaffes galore, pure comedy but hopefully eventually harmless and the bigger risk is people overreacting.
Seriously nothing can be worse than the sinister and duplicitious behind the scenes status quo represented by Hilary Clinton and her ilk. This is 4 years for the entrenched frauds and clowns in politics and media to reassess their ruling strategies as it appears nearly everyone can now see through their bullshit and crave honesty and sincerity even if its ugly.
Trump does not take himself seriously, so why should you. The trump presidency is going to be a clusterfuck, gaffes galore, pure comedy but hopefully eventually harmless and the bigger risk is people overreacting.
Seriously nothing can be worse than the sinister and duplicitious behind the scenes status quo represented by Hilary Clinton and her ilk. This is 4 years for the entrenched frauds and clowns in politics and media to reassess their ruling strategies as it appears nearly everyone can now see through their bullshit and crave honesty and sincerity even if its ugly.
Is it good or bad news that the Australian immigration website is still up [1]?
1. https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/457-
1. https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/457-
We already voted in our version of Trump, so we probably won't let you in.
But the Yanks don't have a means to oust him like Turnbull did...
I am already here :)
As long as you don’t come by boat you should be fine.
As long as you don’t come by boat you should be fine.
This probably has more to do with Patch Tuesday than the extra 500 page loads it got.
There's more to it than just sour grapes, there are minorities legitimately concerned about what their future in America looks like, would not be surprised if they made up a decent chunk of the visitors to that site.
Canada is not bad if you feel comfortable in that weather.
There are some cultural differences, but at a professional level it is very similar to the US.
They do seem friendlier though. Much friendlier.
There are some cultural differences, but at a professional level it is very similar to the US.
They do seem friendlier though. Much friendlier.
Well, https://teleport.org is still up, for searching 200+ other cities you could move to...
I wonder how this might affect startups in Canada? Will it be easier to hire American programmers? Will more investors come up north?
Maybe not Americans, but Mexicans, since the visa requirements are expected to be lifted[1].
[1] http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/06/28/canada-lift-visa-req...
[1] http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/06/28/canada-lift-visa-req...
As it stands now, I doubt that many American programmers would be willing to take the pay cut they'd have to accept if they came to work here.
I like it here, and I'm happy with what I make, but when you factor in the exchange rate, a typical US developer would take a huge salary haircut working here; probably 40-50%.
I like it here, and I'm happy with what I make, but when you factor in the exchange rate, a typical US developer would take a huge salary haircut working here; probably 40-50%.
That is true. But there are also a number of perks such as universal health care. So maybe just a certain type of developer would move - one motivated by values rather than money. Perhaps similar to the draft dodgers who came up in the late 60s.
That's definitely true. And don't get me wrong, salaries aren't terrible, all things considered. If you're a dev with a few years experience here, you're likely making significantly more money on your own that they average Canadian family earns.
Sure, but (depending on the area, at least) you can live very comfortably on 50% of what a west-coast US developer makes. Techies tend to forget that our pay rates are way above the national average.
Yeah, I mentioned in another comment that a typical dev salary here is significantly higher than the average family income.
You're spot on w.r.t. most living expenses, too. I've got a big apartment in a part of Toronto that I really like for $1200 a month. Buying a house in this city is another story, though. On my grandfather's street, smallish 3 bedroom detached homes are selling for $1.5 million+.
You're spot on w.r.t. most living expenses, too. I've got a big apartment in a part of Toronto that I really like for $1200 a month. Buying a house in this city is another story, though. On my grandfather's street, smallish 3 bedroom detached homes are selling for $1.5 million+.
I live in Nelson BC where the powder skiing is legendary. You can get a very nice 3 bedroom house for USD$ 350k. Granted it's a small town but for the right people it's an incredible place with a small srtarrup scene.
Startup scene? I live not far off, relatively speaking, in fact I went across the border and visited Grand Forks just a few days ago. I've always loved Nelson. I'd move to Canada in a heartbeat but without a job offer in hand you can't "just move there" as an American. One of these winters I've got to make it up to Red Mountain, it's tough to find good powder in E. WA.
Software professionals might get to Canada, see the smaller paycheck and run back home!
The pay may be a lot less here but real estate is way cheaper. For the price of a 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco you could buy a 4 bedroom house in Waterloo. We have a nice startup scene here that's really expected to take off when the LRT opens up in 2018.
I am a student of the university of Waterloo and I have lived in San Francisco on two separate occasions in both San Francisco / Mountain View.
Are you seriously comparing SF living to Waterloo living? There's a reason it's 1/4 the price. It's a running joke between every single undergraduate student with significant experience in SF that we want to get out of Waterloo.
LRT opening up? That's a joke. How exactly is the LRT going to help the startup scene?
Are you seriously comparing SF living to Waterloo living? There's a reason it's 1/4 the price. It's a running joke between every single undergraduate student with significant experience in SF that we want to get out of Waterloo.
LRT opening up? That's a joke. How exactly is the LRT going to help the startup scene?
For the price if a 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco you could buy a 4 bedroom house in northern California. (3+ hr drive north of SF)
Who wants a 3 hour commute? If you worked at a startup in Waterloo you'd have a 5 minute commute from your 4 bedroom to the office. You could walk to work, just as people do from their really expensive apartments in SF.
Who wants to live in Waterloo? People who enjoy living in expensive apartments in SF probably wouldn't enjoy living in a city that small. They're willing to pay high rents for a reason.
How long does it take for paper work to be completed? 1-2 years? And than what? Trump will almost certainly mess up enough (which Dem have warned about) to be out of office after just 1 term. And will they go through the paper work to return to US?
I got my postdoc work permit in about...ten minutes?
You show up at the border with your passport, the fee, and few documents from your employer. They do some stuff on the computer and then awkwardly disappear for a few minutes. You pay the cashier and the guard reappears with your completed work permit. Done.
As far as I know, there's also not much paperwork for returning to the US, though you're supposed to inventory all of the stuff you bring back with you.
You show up at the border with your passport, the fee, and few documents from your employer. They do some stuff on the computer and then awkwardly disappear for a few minutes. You pay the cashier and the guard reappears with your completed work permit. Done.
As far as I know, there's also not much paperwork for returning to the US, though you're supposed to inventory all of the stuff you bring back with you.
If you can get your paperwork for a TN-1 visa, you just show up at the border with your application and it's approved on-the-spot. It's not a permanent visa, but it gives you time.
I think highly skilled and paid jobs are expedited. Above CAD $85k I believe.
I was making $70k as a newgrad in Waterloo back in 2012.
Before we know it, politicians in Canada will be promising their citizens they're going to build a wall of their own ;)
No one mentioned Tel-Aviv. We have excellent weather, food and beach. Google and Facebook have engineering offices in Tel-Aviv, and there are lots of start-ups here.
I'm not sure what's the process of getting a visa though. Jewish people can get citizenship relatively easy (Jewish state yada yada yada).
Disclaimer: I work at Facebook Tel-Aviv
I'm not sure what's the process of getting a visa though. Jewish people can get citizenship relatively easy (Jewish state yada yada yada).
Disclaimer: I work at Facebook Tel-Aviv
> No one mentioned Tel-Aviv
People that fear Trumpist racism are very much the same people that understand Israel as a racist country.
People that fear Trumpist racism are very much the same people that understand Israel as a racist country.
I'm not going to get into this discussion. You're welcome to have your opinion, but I don't think all Trump's objectors are against Israel.
The folks over at anonymous were bombarding the site according to some of the shadier 4chan boards.
I haven't heard any of Trump's opponents threaten to move to Mexico... ;-)
Well, some of them will be, but not by choice.
I'm moving to Mexico in a few months :)
Smart - having spent time in both places, I'd hole up in Baja over Lake Ontario any day.
Coming to Canada? We can help, www.vanhack.com, our focus is helping international tech talent get jobs in Canada.
Check out our jobs board: app.vanhack.com/jobboard and shoot me an email with any questions: [email protected]
Check out our jobs board: app.vanhack.com/jobboard and shoot me an email with any questions: [email protected]
What poor risk analysis on behalf of voters.
Same happened at Brexit. Businesses suddenly reacting to what had happened rather than being prepared for something they had known was a possibility for months if not years.
Same happened at Brexit. Businesses suddenly reacting to what had happened rather than being prepared for something they had known was a possibility for months if not years.
As a Canadian, I want to say that the great country that is the United States absolutely needs democrat voters more than ever. So PLEASE stay home for the democracy in your country.
I'm seriously considering switching citizenship now - I've lived in Norway long enough that I can, although I'm not sure how long the process will take or cost.
The snarky reply to the "moving to Canada" thing is: why don't all these California liberals want move to Mexico? It's closer, isn't it?
It's pretty clear what you are insinuating, but Canada is more culturally similar to the US, and not Mexico. Also not to forget I have to learn Spanish.
I say we Canadians build a wall and make America pay for it.
[deleted]
Guys, take me to the first world. I want to suffer, too.
You also get a few more Canadian cents per US$ since the markets closed today, so your money goes further.
And vacations to Mexico just got 10% cheaper.
And vacations to Mexico just got 10% cheaper.
[deleted]
I believe it takes like 5 yrs for citizenship anyway, I remember hearing something like that back in 2005
Is this really feasible for Americans? Is it hard to get citizenship? Would double taxation kill you?
[deleted]
I've lived in LA, SF, Boston, Toronto, and Vancouver.
I liked SF and Boston. Things moved a lot quicker. The cities were more populated, people were more educated (I was near Harvard / MIT / UC Berkeley ) and unassuming.
I went to college near Toronto, and almost all my professors were American. They liked Canada for all the reasons I didn't like it. Things seemed to progress slower than their American counterparts, and people were less wound up. The downside is that the service quality in the private sector is not comparable that of the US.
I currently reside in Vancouver. It's beautiful here, but you get lots of rain during winter seasons. People are friendly. It's expensive if you live near the city, but where isn't?
Pay is definitely not as good if you're an engineer... Maybe 70 cents on the dollar. If you're trying to build a software startup, definitely consider moving your HQ to Canada (or outside of SF!), and keeping a corporate office in SV for fundraising. There's less competition for engineers, and you'll make 30% more progress per dollar invested.
Technology-wise, I'd suggest Waterloo. Silicon Valley hires graduates from U of Waterloo only second to UC Berkeley. Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics chaired by Stephen Hawkings is also there. The city is also home to Institute of Quantum Computing, started by the founder of Blackberry.
D-Wave, one of the major players in quantum computing is based in British Columbia.
In terms of AI, Canada is a bit of a talent drain. Most of the lead researchers and professors have been lured to Oxford or Google or wherever.
Venture Capital presence is limited here. Vancouver has only got a handful of major venture firms. Though, I met a couple of investors from Silicon Valley investors trying to start something up near UBC. I can't say much about Toronto.
Quality of living is pretty good here. I can go out for walks during midnight and not have to worry about getting robbed - something I was never able to do in LA. Many parks.
Overall, you'd like Canada if you're willing to trade slower pace, liberal views, colder weather for population size, and American imperialism.
Every American I've met in Canada really enjoyed being here, just as every Canadian in America I've met really enjoyed being there.
I'm no exception. There's something I love about the narrow Cobblestone streets in Cambridge, the golden hills in SF Bay Area, the weather in LA. And oddly enough, I've found that people I've met in the US are more personable than those in Canada. I suppose that comes with the more unified sense of national identity that is in someways a fascade.
I liked SF and Boston. Things moved a lot quicker. The cities were more populated, people were more educated (I was near Harvard / MIT / UC Berkeley ) and unassuming.
I went to college near Toronto, and almost all my professors were American. They liked Canada for all the reasons I didn't like it. Things seemed to progress slower than their American counterparts, and people were less wound up. The downside is that the service quality in the private sector is not comparable that of the US.
I currently reside in Vancouver. It's beautiful here, but you get lots of rain during winter seasons. People are friendly. It's expensive if you live near the city, but where isn't?
Pay is definitely not as good if you're an engineer... Maybe 70 cents on the dollar. If you're trying to build a software startup, definitely consider moving your HQ to Canada (or outside of SF!), and keeping a corporate office in SV for fundraising. There's less competition for engineers, and you'll make 30% more progress per dollar invested.
Technology-wise, I'd suggest Waterloo. Silicon Valley hires graduates from U of Waterloo only second to UC Berkeley. Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics chaired by Stephen Hawkings is also there. The city is also home to Institute of Quantum Computing, started by the founder of Blackberry.
D-Wave, one of the major players in quantum computing is based in British Columbia.
In terms of AI, Canada is a bit of a talent drain. Most of the lead researchers and professors have been lured to Oxford or Google or wherever.
Venture Capital presence is limited here. Vancouver has only got a handful of major venture firms. Though, I met a couple of investors from Silicon Valley investors trying to start something up near UBC. I can't say much about Toronto.
Quality of living is pretty good here. I can go out for walks during midnight and not have to worry about getting robbed - something I was never able to do in LA. Many parks.
Overall, you'd like Canada if you're willing to trade slower pace, liberal views, colder weather for population size, and American imperialism.
Every American I've met in Canada really enjoyed being here, just as every Canadian in America I've met really enjoyed being there.
I'm no exception. There's something I love about the narrow Cobblestone streets in Cambridge, the golden hills in SF Bay Area, the weather in LA. And oddly enough, I've found that people I've met in the US are more personable than those in Canada. I suppose that comes with the more unified sense of national identity that is in someways a fascade.
Now they get to find out what labour laws are like for aliens :o)
[deleted]
Here is a helpful tool I made for anyone considering moving to Canada!
https://www.canadiantechjobsforamericans.com/
https://www.canadiantechjobsforamericans.com/
As if Canada is far enough away. Good luck.
China, Welcome you. :-)
Do you really want to move to a country whose government can't even keep a mostly-static-webpage site up?
The same website handles actual processing of citizenship and permanent residency applications, such as form submissions, qualification questions, and so on. It runs a very light client so all of the validation is server-side. Far cry from "mostly static".
Like affordable healthcare .gov?
Well, clearly the country can benefit from American talent.
Serious question - why doesn't anyone talk about moving to Mexico? It's a lot warmer...
I've heard a lot of people say, in the U.S, that if this or that happens then "I'm moving to Canada". It's as if they think Canada would welcome them with open arms. Think again.
For what it's worth, I doubt the infrastructure was that good to begin with. Sites put up by my country's government are only set up to handle normal load.
chinese_dan(1)
chinese_dan(1)
- I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...
- as a friend of mine pointed out, Canada is not a consolation prize for disgruntled americans, it's a real country, with its own real people and its own real problems
- having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money, it was a harrowing process. Clogging the already dysfunctional immigration system en masse as a whim is not just stupid, it's insulting to people currently going through immigration, and downright threatening to people who are in very real danger
If you're a disgruntled US citizen, I can understand your frustration, but please don't take this lightly.