Startup Puts Everything You Need for a Two-Acre Farm in a Shipping Container(smithsonianmag.com)
smithsonianmag.com
Startup Puts Everything You Need for a Two-Acre Farm in a Shipping Container
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/san-francisco-startup-puts-everything-you-need-two-acre-farm-shipping-container-180961567/?no-ist
264 comments
I think this is targeting a different part of the "supply chain". Not the people that will directly use it (African farmer) but rather the people that will donate it to the endusers (NGOs).
So this is basically enterprise sales. "Turnkey solution". Sure it could be assembled cheaper but it's also a lot easier to fundraise for such a turnkey solution because it's easier to imagine a shipping container that turns into a farm. Your donation will go to one of these boxes which we'll set up in this African neighborhood...etc.
So this is basically enterprise sales. "Turnkey solution". Sure it could be assembled cheaper but it's also a lot easier to fundraise for such a turnkey solution because it's easier to imagine a shipping container that turns into a farm. Your donation will go to one of these boxes which we'll set up in this African neighborhood...etc.
$60,000 is way more expensive than the 2 acre land it serves in most parts of India
... or USA :)
I worked on a project to create affordable, electric vegetable graters for rural farmers in Ghana [1]. For comparison, the price point of our grater was $150USD and was still seen as too expensive by a substantial portion of our customers, some of whom opted to purchase the graters on an installment basis (3 x $50 every 6 months as our group traveled to Ghana bi-annually).
The main problems our rural customers faced were much more basic in nature and cannot be solved by a $60k farming kit: uncontrollable and sometimes devastating wet/dry seasonal cycles that could decimate an entire crop, making financial planning very difficult. Subsequently many of our customers lived day-to-day off whatever they sold their produce for at the market, making securing loans/financing to invest in capital (more land, equipment, livestock) impossible.
At one of the farms we visited, I noticed a half-built brick house next to the main family house. The farm owner explained that they were building a second home, but that they had to do it literally "brick-by-brick", purchasing a few bricks with extra income when they could afford to buy them. He explained this investment in bricks was their form of saving for the future: the small amounts of extra money would get spent otherwise on food or other necessities rather than put into a bank account or stashed under a mattress.
Other basic problems included a relatively high marginal cost of transporting goods to market and little access to market price data. No agricultural education info. Communal access to heavy farming machinery (graters, plows, etc.) with no accountability for these devices (they end up breaking and nobody wants to pay to fix them). Unreliable electric grid, and no chance the cellular service would be reliable/affordable enough to get an IoT system up and running on a small farm, even if the farmers did have time left over after planting, harvesting, and processing their crops, and looking after their families. Everything is harder and more manual when you lack scale, and you can't order a replacement solar panel/battery/raspberry pi off amazon.
Since the goal of our project was to get the grater into the hands of as many cassava-grating women as possible, at marginally-above-cost, we decided to sell into restaurants and explore other cash-rich markets to cross-subsidize sales to small acreage farmers. We also wanted to sell direct, or close-to-direct (at least in the beginning) to build a relationship with our customers, get to know them, get feedback on the products, and spread news of the product thru word of mouth.
That said, maybe we should have looked to sell our graters to governments/NGOs so we could have scaled up faster.
[1] http://www.olin.edu/academics/experience/engineering-capston...
The main problems our rural customers faced were much more basic in nature and cannot be solved by a $60k farming kit: uncontrollable and sometimes devastating wet/dry seasonal cycles that could decimate an entire crop, making financial planning very difficult. Subsequently many of our customers lived day-to-day off whatever they sold their produce for at the market, making securing loans/financing to invest in capital (more land, equipment, livestock) impossible.
At one of the farms we visited, I noticed a half-built brick house next to the main family house. The farm owner explained that they were building a second home, but that they had to do it literally "brick-by-brick", purchasing a few bricks with extra income when they could afford to buy them. He explained this investment in bricks was their form of saving for the future: the small amounts of extra money would get spent otherwise on food or other necessities rather than put into a bank account or stashed under a mattress.
Other basic problems included a relatively high marginal cost of transporting goods to market and little access to market price data. No agricultural education info. Communal access to heavy farming machinery (graters, plows, etc.) with no accountability for these devices (they end up breaking and nobody wants to pay to fix them). Unreliable electric grid, and no chance the cellular service would be reliable/affordable enough to get an IoT system up and running on a small farm, even if the farmers did have time left over after planting, harvesting, and processing their crops, and looking after their families. Everything is harder and more manual when you lack scale, and you can't order a replacement solar panel/battery/raspberry pi off amazon.
Since the goal of our project was to get the grater into the hands of as many cassava-grating women as possible, at marginally-above-cost, we decided to sell into restaurants and explore other cash-rich markets to cross-subsidize sales to small acreage farmers. We also wanted to sell direct, or close-to-direct (at least in the beginning) to build a relationship with our customers, get to know them, get feedback on the products, and spread news of the product thru word of mouth.
That said, maybe we should have looked to sell our graters to governments/NGOs so we could have scaled up faster.
[1] http://www.olin.edu/academics/experience/engineering-capston...
I've seen brick by brick construction before in peruvian shantytowns, but they lived in the houses the entire time.
They would start with bamboo stakes, woven bamboo mats and sheets of black PVC plastic to construct temporary walls and and claim squatting rights on the land. Then they would slowly buy bricks and stack them up to supplement the walls.
Eventually they would buy cement to construct proper walls and proper roofing materials (the black PVC sheeting was used as a roof until then)
In the long term, they might repeat the process and start on a second story.
They would start with bamboo stakes, woven bamboo mats and sheets of black PVC plastic to construct temporary walls and and claim squatting rights on the land. Then they would slowly buy bricks and stack them up to supplement the walls.
Eventually they would buy cement to construct proper walls and proper roofing materials (the black PVC sheeting was used as a roof until then)
In the long term, they might repeat the process and start on a second story.
Based on what you have said here I feel like technology such as iPhones and IoT networks is not what these people need. Would it help to provide some kind of farming manual with instructions on how to build and maintain farm equipment, how to create a co-op to sell locally, etc? Has it been done? What about providing a printing press to publish pricing data on a daily/weekly basis to try and make that information available to more people? These seem like problems that must have existed in the US in the last 100-150 years, what did we do?
There was this phone-based software created by a research team.
https://hci.stanford.edu/research/voice4all/
"In places such as rural India, small-scale farmers struggle to meet the challenges of fierce global competition, increasing costs of farm inputs, water shortages, and new diseases and pests brought on by a changing climate. To deal with these challenges, information has become a critical input to farming operations: faced with rapidly changing conditions, farmers need market information, timely technical advice, and alerts on new and improved techniques. There are currently few sources for reliable, timely knowledge. Television and radio have achieved remarkable penetration in rural areas and stand as an effective means of information dissemination. However, without a platform to discuss, debate, and relate personal experience, information is not actionable.
Social media - email, blogs, wikis, forums, and social networks - has revolutionized how people learn and share expertise on the web, but the Internet and its associated access technologies (broadband connectivity, PCs) are out of reach for much of rural India. Even if Internet-connected PCs were available, widespread usage is constrained by language and literacy barriers. But while computers are unaffordable or unfamiliar to rural communities, mobile phones are not.
Avaaj Otalo is a service for farmers to access relevant and timely agricultural information over the phone. This service was designed in the summer of 2008 as a collaboration between UC Berkeley School of Information, Stanford HCI Group, IBM India Research Laboratory and Development Support Center (DSC), an NGO in Gujarat, India.
By dialing a phone number and navigating through simple audio prompts, farmers can record, browse, and respond to agriculturual questions and answers. In addition to the Q&A forum, the service includes an announcements board of headline-like snippets updated regularly by DSC staff, and a radio archive to listen to past episodes of DSC's popular weekly radio program."
Avaaj Otalo led to the founding of Awaaz.De (literally, "give voice"), a company in India that provides a hosted solution for deploying voice-based social media.
"In places such as rural India, small-scale farmers struggle to meet the challenges of fierce global competition, increasing costs of farm inputs, water shortages, and new diseases and pests brought on by a changing climate. To deal with these challenges, information has become a critical input to farming operations: faced with rapidly changing conditions, farmers need market information, timely technical advice, and alerts on new and improved techniques. There are currently few sources for reliable, timely knowledge. Television and radio have achieved remarkable penetration in rural areas and stand as an effective means of information dissemination. However, without a platform to discuss, debate, and relate personal experience, information is not actionable.
Social media - email, blogs, wikis, forums, and social networks - has revolutionized how people learn and share expertise on the web, but the Internet and its associated access technologies (broadband connectivity, PCs) are out of reach for much of rural India. Even if Internet-connected PCs were available, widespread usage is constrained by language and literacy barriers. But while computers are unaffordable or unfamiliar to rural communities, mobile phones are not.
Avaaj Otalo is a service for farmers to access relevant and timely agricultural information over the phone. This service was designed in the summer of 2008 as a collaboration between UC Berkeley School of Information, Stanford HCI Group, IBM India Research Laboratory and Development Support Center (DSC), an NGO in Gujarat, India.
By dialing a phone number and navigating through simple audio prompts, farmers can record, browse, and respond to agriculturual questions and answers. In addition to the Q&A forum, the service includes an announcements board of headline-like snippets updated regularly by DSC staff, and a radio archive to listen to past episodes of DSC's popular weekly radio program."
Avaaj Otalo led to the founding of Awaaz.De (literally, "give voice"), a company in India that provides a hosted solution for deploying voice-based social media.
To go one level deeper than the unpredictable weather and poor economics of the small-time farm, I think much of the "problem" of subsistence farming is cultural/societal and there's not much the rural farmers or the NGOs/charities can do to help other than one-off projects like the cassava grater that address specific, painful parts of the process, such as manual grating, but not the entire subsistence farming process/system as a whole.
We spent some time with the best and the brightest Ghanaian college students at Ashesi University [1], many of whom were middle/upper class and set on entering business and politics after graduation. Some discussed practical solutions to the problem, such as farmer co-ops. But all were fed up with the corruption and unstable governance of the country - which is actually extremely stable compared to Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad (Boko Haram). I heard that word 20 times during the half a day we spent with them - corruption this, corruption that. I left with the feeling that the current government and previous generations had let these students down, but that they were determined not to repeat those mistakes.
We also met the CEO and founder of the University, Patrick Awuah, who studied at Swarthmore in 1985 on a full scholarship and went on to work at Microsoft for 8 years as a software engineer and manager. He firmly believes in instilling ethics and self-reliance through education is the way forward for the country, and indeed the entire continent: "If you come back in 30 years, universities will be competing for the best and brightest students. I hope that universities will also be competing on things such as whose students are the most ethical. If that happens, it will change the continent."
I used to believe that religion was a crucial and effective way of passing an ethical code from one generation to the next. But every Ghanaian I met was either Christian or Muslim, and some even expressed concern for my soul when I said I wasn't religious. All taxi drivers would say a prayer and touch their jesus piece hanging from the rear view mirror before every journey (very disconcerting). I also spent some time in Afghanistan, where during the month of Ramadan, I and the other expats had to drink water out of sight in the bathroom at work when we were thirsty so as not to offend practicing muslims, and the entire country shut down after 2pm every day.
Yet despite hugely religious populations, both of these countries experience high levels of corruption, which I think isn't worse than the corruption that occurs in the US, it's just more visible - there's not enough to go around so favor currying/bribes/tribalism is more apparent than it is in wealthier nations where we've developed discrete ways of channeling and accumulating wealth. Corruption in poorer countries is very "in your face" - bribes to the police or politicians, kidnapping, torture, murder.
I'm not sure how it happened, but we were able to build better infrastructure in the US over the past 150 years - both physical (power, water, transportation, internet) and social (checks and balances, constitution, BOR, legal system, decently-managed welfare system). There was a lot of prosperity to go around, after WWII ended the great depression at least.
I suspect it had a lot to do with our financial successes following WWII and the unprecedented technological progress over the past century that allowed the majority of people in the US to prosper. I think our strong capitalist roots also helped, as we moved from an agriculture -> industrial -> services based economy (not a value judgment), while much of Africa was subjected to colonization and many of its resources, both material and human capital, were sent elsewhere. We corporatized and scaled up our agricultural sector, which has its pros (less back breaking labor, a lot more food) and cons (blander, genetically-weaker crops, danger of oligopoly). I think Mr. Awuah's comment is interesting because in 30 years, the best and the brightest Ghanaians may feel compelled to return home and improve life for their fellow Ghanaians, the same way he did after studying and working abroad.
In summary I believe more forward-thinking universities like Ashesi and more leaders like Patrick Awuah need to step forward to help instill a love for ethics, altruism, and the feeling of eating hard-earned bread after a long day of work in bright young students. This will address the core of the problem of the back-breaking labor needed for subsistence farming, but will take a long time. Until then we can chip away at edge problems, like cassava grating, and as another commenter pointed out, information access through smart phones.
This is all conjecture though, and I'm not big on either African or US history, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
[1] In 2012, the university was ranked by PwC as the seventh most respected organisation in Ghana, becoming the first university to make the list. Ashesi's President, Dr. Patrick Awuah, was also ranked the 4th Most Respected CEO in Ghana. In 2015, Africa.com again named Ashesi among its list of top 10 African Universities (excluding South Africa). (From > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashesi_University)
We spent some time with the best and the brightest Ghanaian college students at Ashesi University [1], many of whom were middle/upper class and set on entering business and politics after graduation. Some discussed practical solutions to the problem, such as farmer co-ops. But all were fed up with the corruption and unstable governance of the country - which is actually extremely stable compared to Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad (Boko Haram). I heard that word 20 times during the half a day we spent with them - corruption this, corruption that. I left with the feeling that the current government and previous generations had let these students down, but that they were determined not to repeat those mistakes.
We also met the CEO and founder of the University, Patrick Awuah, who studied at Swarthmore in 1985 on a full scholarship and went on to work at Microsoft for 8 years as a software engineer and manager. He firmly believes in instilling ethics and self-reliance through education is the way forward for the country, and indeed the entire continent: "If you come back in 30 years, universities will be competing for the best and brightest students. I hope that universities will also be competing on things such as whose students are the most ethical. If that happens, it will change the continent."
I used to believe that religion was a crucial and effective way of passing an ethical code from one generation to the next. But every Ghanaian I met was either Christian or Muslim, and some even expressed concern for my soul when I said I wasn't religious. All taxi drivers would say a prayer and touch their jesus piece hanging from the rear view mirror before every journey (very disconcerting). I also spent some time in Afghanistan, where during the month of Ramadan, I and the other expats had to drink water out of sight in the bathroom at work when we were thirsty so as not to offend practicing muslims, and the entire country shut down after 2pm every day.
Yet despite hugely religious populations, both of these countries experience high levels of corruption, which I think isn't worse than the corruption that occurs in the US, it's just more visible - there's not enough to go around so favor currying/bribes/tribalism is more apparent than it is in wealthier nations where we've developed discrete ways of channeling and accumulating wealth. Corruption in poorer countries is very "in your face" - bribes to the police or politicians, kidnapping, torture, murder.
I'm not sure how it happened, but we were able to build better infrastructure in the US over the past 150 years - both physical (power, water, transportation, internet) and social (checks and balances, constitution, BOR, legal system, decently-managed welfare system). There was a lot of prosperity to go around, after WWII ended the great depression at least.
I suspect it had a lot to do with our financial successes following WWII and the unprecedented technological progress over the past century that allowed the majority of people in the US to prosper. I think our strong capitalist roots also helped, as we moved from an agriculture -> industrial -> services based economy (not a value judgment), while much of Africa was subjected to colonization and many of its resources, both material and human capital, were sent elsewhere. We corporatized and scaled up our agricultural sector, which has its pros (less back breaking labor, a lot more food) and cons (blander, genetically-weaker crops, danger of oligopoly). I think Mr. Awuah's comment is interesting because in 30 years, the best and the brightest Ghanaians may feel compelled to return home and improve life for their fellow Ghanaians, the same way he did after studying and working abroad.
In summary I believe more forward-thinking universities like Ashesi and more leaders like Patrick Awuah need to step forward to help instill a love for ethics, altruism, and the feeling of eating hard-earned bread after a long day of work in bright young students. This will address the core of the problem of the back-breaking labor needed for subsistence farming, but will take a long time. Until then we can chip away at edge problems, like cassava grating, and as another commenter pointed out, information access through smart phones.
This is all conjecture though, and I'm not big on either African or US history, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
[1] In 2012, the university was ranked by PwC as the seventh most respected organisation in Ghana, becoming the first university to make the list. Ashesi's President, Dr. Patrick Awuah, was also ranked the 4th Most Respected CEO in Ghana. In 2015, Africa.com again named Ashesi among its list of top 10 African Universities (excluding South Africa). (From > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashesi_University)
> Yet despite hugely religious populations, both of these countries experience high levels of corruption, which I think isn't worse than the corruption that occurs in the US, it's just more visible.
Can you explain yourself more? In your opinion: Is the US succeeding despite the corruption or is it the difference in the type of corruption that is holding Ghana back?
Also thank you for your comment, very interesting and refreshing!
Can you explain yourself more? In your opinion: Is the US succeeding despite the corruption or is it the difference in the type of corruption that is holding Ghana back?
Also thank you for your comment, very interesting and refreshing!
> I used to believe that religion was a crucial and effective way of passing an ethical code from one generation to the next. But every Ghanaian I met was either Christian or Muslim, and some even expressed concern for my soul when I said I wasn't religious.
I suspect what you might be seeing is moral licensing. I was first introduced to this as a discrete concept in Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Revisionist History (episode 1). Interestingly, he predicted that because of it Hillary Clinton would suffer quite harsh criticism if she were to be elected (prior to the election). Listening to it for the first time after the election I couldn't help but think he was right in general but quite off about how it would be expressed. We had just elected the first black president, after all...
I suspect what you might be seeing is moral licensing. I was first introduced to this as a discrete concept in Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Revisionist History (episode 1). Interestingly, he predicted that because of it Hillary Clinton would suffer quite harsh criticism if she were to be elected (prior to the election). Listening to it for the first time after the election I couldn't help but think he was right in general but quite off about how it would be expressed. We had just elected the first black president, after all...
As i read it the longterm water supply is the main problem? Is there a way to cheaply build synthetic cysterns, that can be fixed with existing such as clay?
I thought about freeze/heat fracturing?
You mentioned communal access to capital equipment - what was the organizational structure that acquired/owned this equipment? And how was this organisation run and to whom was it accountable?
Not OP, but thought this link to Hungary's attempts at collective farming might be relevant [1]. Being Hungarian, I've heard many anecdotal stories lamenting the abolishment of that system, to the detriment of small land owners. (In general, in the post-socialist economy, nothing seems to have taken its place, leading to obvious problems of scale and access to equipment.)
The last sentence in the article is quite shocking, though unattributed:
> By 1989, Hungary's total annual agricultural output was larger than that of France.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_Hungary
The last sentence in the article is quite shocking, though unattributed:
> By 1989, Hungary's total annual agricultural output was larger than that of France.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_Hungary
Oh yeah - I'm Israeli, so I know what a well-known run agricultural collective can do (in the kibbutz as well as the "lite" version, the moshava). I'm more curious to know what the equivalent structure is in Ghana, and why it has such trouble managing equipment. This has been done before, they're just not doing it well.
Have you guys tried indoor farming?
They are building a house a few bricks at a time using discretionary income after necessities to buy those bricks. Indoor farming would be far too expensive.
Indoor farming requires does to be in.
What, no dirt? It's pretty much just the irrigation system? And lights for you I hope.
It should come with some tarps and compost at least. It appears to have a nursery, so potting soil and nursery containers hopefully come with it too. I mean all this stuff is cheap, but if they're going to deploy a shipping container, might as well put some of the obvious stuff in it.
It should come with some tarps and compost at least. It appears to have a nursery, so potting soil and nursery containers hopefully come with it too. I mean all this stuff is cheap, but if they're going to deploy a shipping container, might as well put some of the obvious stuff in it.
For fun, I was looking at cheap (compared to San Francisco) land with no infrastructure in Wyoming. 1 acre of land, $10K USD. Drilling a water well that might work, $5K to $30K.
Wyoming?! That's our backyard. Drop by our office sometime! [1] Our CEO ran a CSA for a few years here in Wyoming. Places like Wyoming have cheap land, but there are some tricks to doing farming up here.
1: https://brightagrotech.com/
1: https://brightagrotech.com/
I'm in Colorado and the soil here is terrible trying to start a small garden behind my house. Even with purchased good quality dirt and fertilizer, it's still very very hard solid.
Back in college, I took a soil science class. The professor said the Laramie valley has (used to at least) pretty good soil – fairly light and decent nutrient profile. There was a big western farm boom in the 1910's during a wet period that lasted 10-20 years. I'm not overly familiar with all the soil types in Colorado.
We have one farmer who uses some of our equipment, but he has also had good luck with soil in Fort Collins, CO [1]. He's on a hill though near a lake which might help. He said drainage was important for him.
Vertical farming is a great way to get around issues with soil quality. Especially for winter growing and also reducing the labor associated with planting, weeding, and harvesting. Seriously though, schedule a time to drop by if you're ever up in Laramie. We have a lot of knowledgeable people here who love talking growing! One of my coworkers has also done some good work on the economics or vertical farming (using our equipment mainly, as – well – that's what we know!) [2]. Much of the economics should be comparable on other vertical systems (though, probably less efficient you know ;) ).
Are you a software dev or tech person? Always fun to talk about the combo of farm and tech!
1: http://bayberryfresh.com/ 2: https://youtu.be/u-aFueGWSFU?t=6m1s
We have one farmer who uses some of our equipment, but he has also had good luck with soil in Fort Collins, CO [1]. He's on a hill though near a lake which might help. He said drainage was important for him.
Vertical farming is a great way to get around issues with soil quality. Especially for winter growing and also reducing the labor associated with planting, weeding, and harvesting. Seriously though, schedule a time to drop by if you're ever up in Laramie. We have a lot of knowledgeable people here who love talking growing! One of my coworkers has also done some good work on the economics or vertical farming (using our equipment mainly, as – well – that's what we know!) [2]. Much of the economics should be comparable on other vertical systems (though, probably less efficient you know ;) ).
Are you a software dev or tech person? Always fun to talk about the combo of farm and tech!
1: http://bayberryfresh.com/ 2: https://youtu.be/u-aFueGWSFU?t=6m1s
Thank you! Indeed, I may need to take a drive up and take a peek :)
Small-house gardening, wherever you go in the world, is all about the compost. Get your compost working, and you can grow a house garden pretty much anywhere. Seriously! Composts are the key to all successful house gardens in rugged territory. (Disclaimer: It takes a couple years to boot up a good compost that'll fix yer soils..)
http://eartheasy.com/grow_compost.html
http://eartheasy.com/grow_compost.html
Have you considered double-digging? Works pretty well here in New Mexico.
double digging a garden:
http://aces.nmsu.edu/ces/yard/2007/020307.htmlFor me doing that is somewhere between an escapist fantasy and a backup retirement plan. I've been looking at Idaho properties for some time now because it seemed to have favorable acreage vs price ratios.
Last year a random 40-acre hilltop plot at Indian Creek was listed for 30k and finally sold for 15k, which is amazing. Its neighboring 40-acre lot with a view of Bear Lake is currently being sold for 30k. Lots of variances in prices and terrain, including mountain tops. Or at least tall hills, whatever they officially are.
One of the weirdest incentives for me to keep looking is that certain counties in ID don't have building codes: you're on your own. That flexibility cuts both ways, but it means you could make a mud and straw house if you felt like it, without interference. Of course, cabin kits are probably safer and more practical.
Last year a random 40-acre hilltop plot at Indian Creek was listed for 30k and finally sold for 15k, which is amazing. Its neighboring 40-acre lot with a view of Bear Lake is currently being sold for 30k. Lots of variances in prices and terrain, including mountain tops. Or at least tall hills, whatever they officially are.
One of the weirdest incentives for me to keep looking is that certain counties in ID don't have building codes: you're on your own. That flexibility cuts both ways, but it means you could make a mud and straw house if you felt like it, without interference. Of course, cabin kits are probably safer and more practical.
I can find you some property in Maine that is closer to 2K/acre as long as you're okay being off grid. Well drilling would only be $3-5K depending on the site, and you might even get lucky and have a natural spring on the property somewhere.
We got a whole lotta land up here, and most of it is stuck in the post-lumber slump.
We got a whole lotta land up here, and most of it is stuck in the post-lumber slump.
The soil here (in much of the state) is fairly good, but the growing season is pathetically short. Assuming you're on the plains and get a full day of sun. (If not, it's even shorter). But, on the plains, then you've got more wind than you want to deal with.
So - why Wyoming? Why don't you go some place with milder weather that isn't a desert like Kansas or Arkansas?
So - why Wyoming? Why don't you go some place with milder weather that isn't a desert like Kansas or Arkansas?
I was just poking around the Internet for the cheapest land I could find. I didn't look for a super long time. I think land below a certain price doesn't stand out because there's little incentive to promote it, so you have to hunt for better prices.
You can go way cheaper than 10k per acre
I wonder if the cost isn't mostly due to manufacturing labor. A good look-over by someone experienced in Lean production might help them map their value streams and get the cost way down.
I suspect part of the reason they're going high-tech with all the IoT devices is so that they can sell a lot of these domestically for profit, and thereby subsidize the ones they send overseas. Not necessarily a bad idea. And if they can get the owners/users to form an online community and capture some learning, the more the better!
I suspect part of the reason they're going high-tech with all the IoT devices is so that they can sell a lot of these domestically for profit, and thereby subsidize the ones they send overseas. Not necessarily a bad idea. And if they can get the owners/users to form an online community and capture some learning, the more the better!
They need that meat in their profit margin to accelerate the Sell Out and Bro Down steps of their business plan.
A little OT, but I'm wanting to put together a drip system in our yard. Any resources you'd recommend/found very helpful?
I live in the Pacific Northwest, so am thinking about installing a cistern/rain water collection center, then putting together a drip system for planter beds that we'll be installing.
Thank you!
I live in the Pacific Northwest, so am thinking about installing a cistern/rain water collection center, then putting together a drip system for planter beds that we'll be installing.
Thank you!
I drip irrigated my entire yard (only about a quarter of an acre, so, quite small). I just used the drip irrigation stuff at home depot. Its fairly inexpensive and once you start working with it you figure out pretty quickly how it all the parts work together. I just looked at the companies website to figure out what I needed to get started.
Doesn't limescale eventually kill drip irrigation system?
Our water is as soft as a baby's bottom - so no limescale here. I'm not aware of how a drip irrigation system is affected in areas with hard water.
Could you throw a calgon into it? :)
The thing is I am not a professional farmer or have had worked in farms in any capacity. I have a technical background so doing things on my own in DIY way out of sheer curiosity drives me. Plus, I wanted to introduce myself to organic farming in my backyard. I can share with you things I bought and how I have used them, pretty straightforward stuff.
I thought about putting an irrigation system where water would be driven with gravity and into drip system. But unlike you I don’t have an advantage of rainwater. So I still kept water reservoir (instead of a continuous tap/faucet as a source) and instead used an electronic water pump and a Wi-Fi outlet that I can schedule as I please or even remote control it if I am traveling abroad (I learned hard way that which certain plants required less or more water and in this way I was able to adjust water flow/resistance in my drip system)
Here’s a pseudo-schematic that I just chalked down:
http://imgur.com/a/0exTv
These are the parts I have bought off of Amazon. If you can buy these parts from a single seller than I am sure you can save even more.
Listed prices are the prices I have paid. Currently, they could be more or less on Amazon. Some parts were bought at a Lowe's local store.
Koram Drip Irrigation 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing Drip Watering Hose 50' Roll $8.99 1 $8.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013WJYKZQ/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Raindrip 381025B Heavy Duty Support Stakes, 6-Inch, 25 Per Bag $7.51 2 $15.02 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BOAKKK/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Rain Bird T22-50 Drip Irrigation 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing, 50' Roll $6.69 1 $6.69 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FJX5DU/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Fastening Tape 0.75-inch Hook & Loop Fastening Tape 5 yard/roll - Black $5.31 1 $5.31 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AF9II6/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Koram 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing Irrigation Gardener's Greenhouse Plant Watering Drip Kit Accessories IR-D $25.99 2 $51.98 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013JPIJG4/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Prime Wire & Cable EC502608 8-Foot 16/3 SJTW Indoor and Outdoor Extension Cord, Black $6.58 1 $6.58 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006G6A2KA/ref=oh_aui_deta...
EcoPlus 728492 Eco 100 Submersible Pump, 100GPH $11.95 1 $11.95 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007KIIQF6/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Samar 5/16-in x 20-ft PVC Clear Vinyl Tubing 1ft $2 1 $2.00 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Samar-5-16-in-x-20-ft-PVC-Clear-Vin...
Murray 2-Pack 1/4-in to 5/8-in dia Stainless Steel Full Clamps $0.71 1 $0.71 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Murray-2-Pack-1-4-in-to-5-8-in-dia-...
BrassCraft 1/2-in x 3/8-in Threaded Adapter Bushing Fitting $3.98 1 $3.98 https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-1-2-in-x-3-8-in-Threaded...
BrassCraft 3/8-in x 3/8-in Barbed Barb x MIP Adapter Fitting $3.78 1 $3.78 https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-3-8-in-x-3-8-in-Barbed-B...
TP-LINK Wi-Fi Smart Plug, Works with Amazon Echo, Turn On/Off Your Electronics From Anywhere (HS100) $29.99 1 $29.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0178IC734/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Aquarium 8Way Air Flow Splitter Lever Control Valve 3/8 Inch Tube Dia $11.76 1 $11.76 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W136G8E/ref=oh_aui_deta...
MoonCity 3-in-1 Soil Moisture, Light and pH / acidity Meter Plant Tester,Good for Gardener or planter both indoor and outdoors (No Battery needed) $12.99 1 $12.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017GQ9VVY/ref=od_aui_deta...
30 gallons plastic container from home depot $20 1 $20.00
Total $191.73
Here’s a pseudo-schematic that I just chalked down:
http://imgur.com/a/0exTv
These are the parts I have bought off of Amazon. If you can buy these parts from a single seller than I am sure you can save even more.
Listed prices are the prices I have paid. Currently, they could be more or less on Amazon. Some parts were bought at a Lowe's local store.
Koram Drip Irrigation 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing Drip Watering Hose 50' Roll $8.99 1 $8.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013WJYKZQ/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Raindrip 381025B Heavy Duty Support Stakes, 6-Inch, 25 Per Bag $7.51 2 $15.02 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BOAKKK/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Rain Bird T22-50 Drip Irrigation 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing, 50' Roll $6.69 1 $6.69 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FJX5DU/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Fastening Tape 0.75-inch Hook & Loop Fastening Tape 5 yard/roll - Black $5.31 1 $5.31 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AF9II6/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Koram 1/4" Blank Distribution Tubing Irrigation Gardener's Greenhouse Plant Watering Drip Kit Accessories IR-D $25.99 2 $51.98 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013JPIJG4/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Prime Wire & Cable EC502608 8-Foot 16/3 SJTW Indoor and Outdoor Extension Cord, Black $6.58 1 $6.58 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006G6A2KA/ref=oh_aui_deta...
EcoPlus 728492 Eco 100 Submersible Pump, 100GPH $11.95 1 $11.95 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007KIIQF6/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Samar 5/16-in x 20-ft PVC Clear Vinyl Tubing 1ft $2 1 $2.00 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Samar-5-16-in-x-20-ft-PVC-Clear-Vin...
Murray 2-Pack 1/4-in to 5/8-in dia Stainless Steel Full Clamps $0.71 1 $0.71 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Murray-2-Pack-1-4-in-to-5-8-in-dia-...
BrassCraft 1/2-in x 3/8-in Threaded Adapter Bushing Fitting $3.98 1 $3.98 https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-1-2-in-x-3-8-in-Threaded...
BrassCraft 3/8-in x 3/8-in Barbed Barb x MIP Adapter Fitting $3.78 1 $3.78 https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-3-8-in-x-3-8-in-Barbed-B...
TP-LINK Wi-Fi Smart Plug, Works with Amazon Echo, Turn On/Off Your Electronics From Anywhere (HS100) $29.99 1 $29.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0178IC734/ref=oh_aui_deta...
Aquarium 8Way Air Flow Splitter Lever Control Valve 3/8 Inch Tube Dia $11.76 1 $11.76 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W136G8E/ref=oh_aui_deta...
MoonCity 3-in-1 Soil Moisture, Light and pH / acidity Meter Plant Tester,Good for Gardener or planter both indoor and outdoors (No Battery needed) $12.99 1 $12.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017GQ9VVY/ref=od_aui_deta...
30 gallons plastic container from home depot $20 1 $20.00
Total $191.73
DripWorks has a great catalog and good prices.
Let me reply to your post by EOD. I will be able to provide better details then.
You also get the container too, which they say expands in size.
That's about $2k for a good one. Say $4k for the expanding one.
> All of those things affect the ultimate price of the box, and that’s why we have a range from about $50,000 to $60,000. If you were to a la carte all the different components that we put into this kit, it would end up costing you more than what we’re charging.
I seriously doubt that. $50k for what appears to basically be 2 acres of irrigation equipment and a solar-powered raspberry pi is absurd.
It also looks like they've so far deployed exactly 1 of these setups in the real world and haven't even really started producing units for sale. Right now this venture is a complete pipe dream and feels awfully out of touch.
I seriously doubt that. $50k for what appears to basically be 2 acres of irrigation equipment and a solar-powered raspberry pi is absurd.
It also looks like they've so far deployed exactly 1 of these setups in the real world and haven't even really started producing units for sale. Right now this venture is a complete pipe dream and feels awfully out of touch.
The 2 founders literally have no agricultural expertise. One's last job was at a no-name business school accelerator and another worked in an administrative role in the non-profit world. There is a conspicuous absence of any kind of agronomy experience here.
As someone who has some perspective on the conditions of the purported customer for this they are so out of touch it is ridiculous and.
As someone who has some perspective on the conditions of the purported customer for this they are so out of touch it is ridiculous and.
I don't know what is the thing with startups and containers :-)
There were the very same kind of guys proposing the aquaponic version of a farm container for 20k€. I made a 2-minute napkin calculation, keeping the ridiculously high advertised yield for the whole duration, assuming no other starting cost (which is not true), assuming not any running cost (which is of course far from true), assuming not incident at all, assuming no opportunity cost, assuming a relatively high equivalent price of the vegetables.
So with all those positive assumptions, it would take 13 years to just break even. If you factor in that not everything is going to be so perfect and that, perfect or not, there are needed running costs, you can easily push that date back to, I don't know, 20 or 30 years.
All this point, your original installation isn't worth a penny any more and you can re-new it.
You haven't saved a penny. And what you have been eating for 20 years: indoor off-ground vegetables that taste no better than the industrially produced vegetables.
But yeah, it was two 25-year old city-dweller ex-business-school-students who claim they know things coz granpda was a farmer and they once went to his farm when they were 12, and they have an uncle they visit a week a year who has a garden.
There were the very same kind of guys proposing the aquaponic version of a farm container for 20k€. I made a 2-minute napkin calculation, keeping the ridiculously high advertised yield for the whole duration, assuming no other starting cost (which is not true), assuming not any running cost (which is of course far from true), assuming not incident at all, assuming no opportunity cost, assuming a relatively high equivalent price of the vegetables.
So with all those positive assumptions, it would take 13 years to just break even. If you factor in that not everything is going to be so perfect and that, perfect or not, there are needed running costs, you can easily push that date back to, I don't know, 20 or 30 years.
All this point, your original installation isn't worth a penny any more and you can re-new it.
You haven't saved a penny. And what you have been eating for 20 years: indoor off-ground vegetables that taste no better than the industrially produced vegetables.
But yeah, it was two 25-year old city-dweller ex-business-school-students who claim they know things coz granpda was a farmer and they once went to his farm when they were 12, and they have an uncle they visit a week a year who has a garden.
To be fair... you could've said the same thing about solar 15 years ago: 20-30 year unsubsidized payback, with energy that is the same as industrially-produced energy.
> It also looks like they've so far deployed exactly 1 of these setups in the real world and haven't even really started producing units for sale. Right now this venture is a complete pipe dream and feels awfully out of touch.
So what you're saying is they posted it to the right forum? Not making fun of hacker news, but it is literally a forum for not-yet-validated startup ideas.
So what you're saying is they posted it to the right forum? Not making fun of hacker news, but it is literally a forum for not-yet-validated startup ideas.
You forgot it also being a forum for ideas that have no concept of how they're going to generate revenue in the first place. This would probably get a positive outlook if it were made free and planned on monetizing by selling solar to the grid after it blew through five years of VC funding or something.
My scam senses were tingling before I got to the comments. Most likely this is a routine NGO/EDU/Gov scam backed by an aggressive and shiny sales approach.
> Most likely this is a routine NGO/EDU/Gov scam backed by an aggressive and shiny sales approach.
And this is why I don't like those Gov (capital G intentional) programs. The scamsters are the best at exploiting them.
That's how you end up with things like this: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/free-golf-cart-but-call-it-a-low...
And this is why I don't like those Gov (capital G intentional) programs. The scamsters are the best at exploiting them.
That's how you end up with things like this: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/free-golf-cart-but-call-it-a-low...
This reminds of the massive deductions the govt have for commercial trucks. They weren't very specific about what the usage was so everyone bought an expensive H2 Hummer and slapped a business sticker on the back gate. Usually realtors, appraisers, or some mobile DJs.
New Zealand has something similar.
We have a fringe benefits tax, which applies if you drive company vehicles for personal use (since you are gaining something by not having to use your own vehicle).
This tax doesn't apply to pickup trucks with business markings of a certain size (and I think they have to be on the side?) that are permanently affixed (so no magnetic stickers).
The result is that there's quite a few companies with Toyota Hiluxes and other trucks that don't actually need trucks at all, since they're a service company that has literally nothing to haul.
I think that pickup trucks depreciate differently as well, with tax benefits to using them over a sedan.
We have a fringe benefits tax, which applies if you drive company vehicles for personal use (since you are gaining something by not having to use your own vehicle).
This tax doesn't apply to pickup trucks with business markings of a certain size (and I think they have to be on the side?) that are permanently affixed (so no magnetic stickers).
The result is that there's quite a few companies with Toyota Hiluxes and other trucks that don't actually need trucks at all, since they're a service company that has literally nothing to haul.
I think that pickup trucks depreciate differently as well, with tax benefits to using them over a sedan.
What's an NGO/EDU/Gov scam?
It probably takes many different forms, but the ones I know about go something like this:
1) Government identifies some area that needs focus, usually so they can say they're doing something.
2) A fund is created with whatever the government thinks is enough to sound like they're doing something.
3) Request for proposals on how to spend the money within said area is sent out.
4) Interested parties figure out how to get their hands on the money in the fund.
Examples of who will apply:
a) Existing companies who try to spin something they already have into something that can give them free money for whatever they were already doing.
b) Scammers who have no intention of doing anything of value and simply try to do the minimum to say they tried (like some Kickstarter scams).
In best cases the winners are picked based on superficial evaluation of who lives up the criteria and who can bullshit most on paperwork. In worst case winners are picked based on who can provide the best kickbacks, ranging from just professional relations or dinners to actual kickbacks.
1) Government identifies some area that needs focus, usually so they can say they're doing something.
2) A fund is created with whatever the government thinks is enough to sound like they're doing something.
3) Request for proposals on how to spend the money within said area is sent out.
4) Interested parties figure out how to get their hands on the money in the fund.
Examples of who will apply:
a) Existing companies who try to spin something they already have into something that can give them free money for whatever they were already doing.
b) Scammers who have no intention of doing anything of value and simply try to do the minimum to say they tried (like some Kickstarter scams).
In best cases the winners are picked based on superficial evaluation of who lives up the criteria and who can bullshit most on paperwork. In worst case winners are picked based on who can provide the best kickbacks, ranging from just professional relations or dinners to actual kickbacks.
There is also the well meaning scam where they try to do something good, but have very little ability to actually execute and/or are trying to solve a problem without running the numbers (eg: gravity lights). They can end up going full scam when they refuse to pivot to techniques that would work better when the numbers come in and say their idea doesn't work.
These guys don't seem to qualify for this and fall into standard NGO scam, as the wifi/computers/etc in a farm that is destined for the 3rd world just seems to be there to generate buzz and justify their outrageous price tag. It seems like another box of stuff that will break in a year that gets dumped on the third world.
These guys don't seem to qualify for this and fall into standard NGO scam, as the wifi/computers/etc in a farm that is destined for the 3rd world just seems to be there to generate buzz and justify their outrageous price tag. It seems like another box of stuff that will break in a year that gets dumped on the third world.
You don't need to be so cynical.
In every one of those steps, people usually have good intentions.
But the same thing happens anyhow.
There is money, managed by people who don't know how to create value.
In every one of those steps, people usually have good intentions.
But the same thing happens anyhow.
There is money, managed by people who don't know how to create value.
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In my experience, Raspberry Pis are nice hobbyist toys but tend to corrupt data on their SD cards at random and generally are unreliable. For 50k you could at least send them a somewhat rugged fanless PC with a SSD raid for added reliability.
Off-topic, but I've become something of an unintentional expert on making Pis reliable.
First, consider using f2fs instead of ext4 with a nice big card (and get a good one).
Next, attempt to disable all of the unnecessary logging and writes to the SD. Either send them to a server, write them to a ramdisk or even consider mounting the partition in read-only mode. This will drastically increase your duty cycle.
Finally, follow proper system shutdown procedures.
Do all of that (bonus points for putting heatsinks on your chips) and the Pi becomes rock-solid or something like it. Hint: it's not the Pi that fails, it's the SD card.
First, consider using f2fs instead of ext4 with a nice big card (and get a good one).
Next, attempt to disable all of the unnecessary logging and writes to the SD. Either send them to a server, write them to a ramdisk or even consider mounting the partition in read-only mode. This will drastically increase your duty cycle.
Finally, follow proper system shutdown procedures.
Do all of that (bonus points for putting heatsinks on your chips) and the Pi becomes rock-solid or something like it. Hint: it's not the Pi that fails, it's the SD card.
I will also comment on the SD card quality issue: STOP BUYING SHITTY LOW GRADE SD CARDS AND EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO WRITE TO THEM FREQUENTLY.
Just stop. There is a reason why companies like GoPro (which abusively write cards to death) bless only certain products (the top of their list being modern generations of Sandisk Extreme and Extreme Plus, Samsung Pro and Pro Plus, and Lexar Pro).
In this case, they also make industrial SDs that survive unusually high and low temperatures, which given the nature of this specific context, is worth looking into (although expensive and of low capacity).
Just stop. There is a reason why companies like GoPro (which abusively write cards to death) bless only certain products (the top of their list being modern generations of Sandisk Extreme and Extreme Plus, Samsung Pro and Pro Plus, and Lexar Pro).
In this case, they also make industrial SDs that survive unusually high and low temperatures, which given the nature of this specific context, is worth looking into (although expensive and of low capacity).
I was just recently talking to someone who was very upset that their super cheap 32 GB card wasn't 32 GB and overwrote everything on the card when it ran out of actual space, wiping a whole heap of awesome GoPro footage and photos.
I've had a couple of cards like that before, but after reading an article about fake SD cards a while ago, I test every new SD card and flash drive I get to make sure it's to advertised capacity so I haven't been stung.
I've had a couple of cards like that before, but after reading an article about fake SD cards a while ago, I test every new SD card and flash drive I get to make sure it's to advertised capacity so I haven't been stung.
So, that's a Pi + a rugged fanless PC with a SSD raid :-)
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Better yet, get them a big stack of these:
https://fieldnotesbrand.com/products/expedition
They are pocket sized, "plastic paper" water and dirt proof field notebooks. And a stack of pencils to go with them.
Because really, someone running a two-acre farm in some developing country has enough time to make manual adjustments to the irrigation system, manual notes of minutiae etc. They will be manually going through the fields to pick weeds, inspect crops etc. anyway.
https://fieldnotesbrand.com/products/expedition
They are pocket sized, "plastic paper" water and dirt proof field notebooks. And a stack of pencils to go with them.
Because really, someone running a two-acre farm in some developing country has enough time to make manual adjustments to the irrigation system, manual notes of minutiae etc. They will be manually going through the fields to pick weeds, inspect crops etc. anyway.
Nice product! This kind of waterproof notebooks are also used for technical scuba diving: http://eshop.daretodive.eu/produkt/wetnotes-complete-black-/
Counter point; I have 3 RPis (an original B, a B+, and a 2) and in 4 years have never had any data corruption. I use the 2 every day running OSMC as my media center and the B+ sees very frequent use in a variety of projects.
I think that's a very expensive computer for $50,000
As I've said in other threads re high-tech farming ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13063841 ), most of these websites and startups and schemes are completely inane.
I'd bet that this one is in that category too.
I'd bet that this one is in that category too.
I was about to post another submission[1] regarding DIY farm tools that someone had commented on saying they thought it was another case of it being crap, but were pleasantly surprised that it had some good ideas, and in making sure it wasn't already mentioned came upon your comment. Turns out, you're the comment in the other submission saying it was actually not bad, so I suspect you'll appreciate this link. :)
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13063541
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13063541
I was shocked by that too. From what I gleaned from the article, you get a shipping container, some solar panels (and, presumably, batteries), a system on a chip and a drip irrigation system.
It's not even clear you actually get a shipping container, just that everything could fit in one (and how could it not? It's just a bunch of hoses, a pump, and some electronics). The shipping container itself would probably be the most valuable part of the package.
I agree that skepticism is warranted especially since its not clear what is included but I think the idea could have merit. The key value it could provide is time savings on getting the farm up and running. The time between putting money down on land and equipment and getting revenue flowing is crucial for any business, with farming being more unforgiving than most. If this product allows a farmer to cut the time to acquire and integrate most of the pieces they need then that's quite valuable.
From the article...
> We have a three-part training program that comes with the box. One: Covering sustainable farming, making sure everyone knows a little bit in terms of crop rotation, and composting, and intercropping. Two: Covering technology use and maintenance, making sure that the individuals know how to maintain and troubleshoot all of the components of the farm. Three: Farming as an enterprise, making sure that there is a market-based approach to farming.
It's not just 2 acres of irrigation equipment and a solar-powered raspberry pi. There's at least initial support to help improve odds of success.
Not saying that bumps to $50,000 in value in material terms. Just pointing out you don't just get a box dropped off on your driveway.
> We have a three-part training program that comes with the box. One: Covering sustainable farming, making sure everyone knows a little bit in terms of crop rotation, and composting, and intercropping. Two: Covering technology use and maintenance, making sure that the individuals know how to maintain and troubleshoot all of the components of the farm. Three: Farming as an enterprise, making sure that there is a market-based approach to farming.
It's not just 2 acres of irrigation equipment and a solar-powered raspberry pi. There's at least initial support to help improve odds of success.
Not saying that bumps to $50,000 in value in material terms. Just pointing out you don't just get a box dropped off on your driveway.
So you get some American boffin telling you how you should run your farm in Africa?
Sounds like a great use of money to me...
Sounds like a great use of money to me...
It comes with WiFi, but not a tractor. Or even some small powered push-type tiller. Do they assume the farmer has an ox or a pair of mules? For $50K, they should at least throw in a decent garden tractor with a 3-point hitch and some basic attachments. Priorities.
For comparison, see this article in Modern Farmer.[1] This guy has revenue of about $100K per acre and has books and tools on how to replicate his farming techniques. He's working on a turnkey small farming package, and has a track record of making small farms work.
[1] http://modernfarmer.com/2016/10/jm-fortier/
For comparison, see this article in Modern Farmer.[1] This guy has revenue of about $100K per acre and has books and tools on how to replicate his farming techniques. He's working on a turnkey small farming package, and has a track record of making small farms work.
[1] http://modernfarmer.com/2016/10/jm-fortier/
I assumed for the price that would be the first thing in the box. Seriously, a man can do quite a lot with a PTO and some hydraulics. Add to that the ability to move this power around the field and you can really get some work done.
Based on some experiences in rural Mexico, I think folks in the rich world underestimate how daunting power tools are to many people in the poor world. The majority of craftspeople I met and worked a touch with were extremely reluctant to try to use a circular saw, etc. These are folks that can use a machete with the precision of a surgeon. If you didn't grow up around powered equipment, it's a significant hurdle to get over, even when there are tremendous benefits.
And if it was diesel, they can make their own fuel eventually too. "Early experimenters on vegetable oil fuels included the French government and Dr. Diesel himself, who envisioned that pure vegetable oils could power early diesel engines for agriculture in remote areas of the world, where petroleum was not available at the time."
You don't need a tractor. Tilling the land will kill off beneficial organisms like earthworms. A better strategy would be to cover the land in tarps until the existing plant life dies, then add 6 inches of compost to areas you're going to sow plants.
This takes a lot of waiting for the plants to die and a lot of money for the compost, but it should produce better results in the long run.
This takes a lot of waiting for the plants to die and a lot of money for the compost, but it should produce better results in the long run.
Maybe not to till the land every year (agreed about your comment of the beneficial organisms), but to do miscellaneous tasks, they are incredibly handy. For instance, in my area, the land is famous for "growing rocks". If you had an acre or two you were going to do any long term farming, the first thing to do is clear all the fist to breadbox size rocks. This is sooooo much easier with a tractor and pull behind trailer, or front end loader. Digging holes, moving dirt, and carting finished produce are also things that a small tractor is very useful for. Is it absolutely necessary? No, but unless farming is the full time occupation, it is very nice for a small 1-2 person operation to have.
But clearing the field in the most fun part of starting a new game of Harvest Moon! (:P)
Yeah I can imagine at least having a truck to cart away all those rocks would be pretty handy. But once you're established you won't have to do it again, right? Could just rent it when you need it.
Yeah I can imagine at least having a truck to cart away all those rocks would be pretty handy. But once you're established you won't have to do it again, right? Could just rent it when you need it.
And he only uses a walk-behind.
Curtis Stone also has a "do what I do and you can be successful" book: http://theurbanfarmer.co/
Curtis Stone also has a "do what I do and you can be successful" book: http://theurbanfarmer.co/
He has been interviewed once or twice on Wisconsin Public Radio in their typical, excellent 45 minute or 1 hour format.
It was a fascinating interview -- very eloquent and practical. I hope to take a longer look, myself.
P.S. http://www.wpr.org/people/jean-martin-fortier
It was a fascinating interview -- very eloquent and practical. I hope to take a longer look, myself.
P.S. http://www.wpr.org/people/jean-martin-fortier
Pretty light on details, even the website of this company itself. The claim of being able to feed 150 people off 2 acres (about 1 hectare, for those of us who like to think in units that make sense) is a pretty wild one. Maybe you could grow potatoes with [150 x 1700 x 365] calories in them in a climate where you can grow year round, but that's surely not what they're insinuating in their marketing pictures.
I have troubles in computing the BOM (Bill Of Materials) of such a thing.
1) a container
2) a tin shed leaning on it on one side
3) a small plastic? nursery/seeding house on the other side
4) a 3 Kwh solar plant (including batteries, etc.)
5) a bunch of pumps (and I presume pipes) for drip irrigation
6) web connectivity
7) possibly a bunch of hand farming tools
do not sum up to costs that justify the US$ 50,000/60,000 sell price, maybe I am missing something very relevant?
And - though admittedly I am not an agriculture expert - the 150 people feeding out of 1 hectare sounds like an extremely tall story to me, I would think more at around 10/15 people per acre (in a proper, fertile piece of land with good climate).
1) a container
2) a tin shed leaning on it on one side
3) a small plastic? nursery/seeding house on the other side
4) a 3 Kwh solar plant (including batteries, etc.)
5) a bunch of pumps (and I presume pipes) for drip irrigation
6) web connectivity
7) possibly a bunch of hand farming tools
do not sum up to costs that justify the US$ 50,000/60,000 sell price, maybe I am missing something very relevant?
And - though admittedly I am not an agriculture expert - the 150 people feeding out of 1 hectare sounds like an extremely tall story to me, I would think more at around 10/15 people per acre (in a proper, fertile piece of land with good climate).
I was trying to do the math here too. Here's what I came up with.
1) Shipping Container - ~$2,000
2) Tin Shed - Maybe another ~$1,000
3) Hoop Greenhouse - ~$400 [1]
4) 3Kwh Solar Plant with Batteries - ~$8,500 [2]
5) 2 Acre Drip Irrigation System - ~$3,000 [3]
6) WiFi Access - $1,000 (I have no idea what hardware/capabilities they're delivering here, but it seems like that's a safe number)
7) A Bunch of Hand Farming Tools - $1,000 (Another guesstimate)
8) A 1,000 gallon water storage tank - ~$700 [4]
So that takes us to about $17,600. Let's add another $5,000 for preparation, packaging, research and educational materials. Let's add another $5,000 for stuff that's more expensive than my guesstimates, and remove nothing for the article's claimed efficiencies that makes this so much more cost-effective than buying a la carte.
That still only puts us at $28,000, so either there's something I'm totally missing here, or this is total BS.
[1] http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/16-foot-wide-cold... [2] http://www.bimblesolar.com/3kwcomplete-sunny-island [3] https://www.berryhilldrip.com/Kit-Pro-2-This-Complete-Kit-wi... [4] http://www.plastic-mart.com/category/9/plastic-water-tanks
1) Shipping Container - ~$2,000
2) Tin Shed - Maybe another ~$1,000
3) Hoop Greenhouse - ~$400 [1]
4) 3Kwh Solar Plant with Batteries - ~$8,500 [2]
5) 2 Acre Drip Irrigation System - ~$3,000 [3]
6) WiFi Access - $1,000 (I have no idea what hardware/capabilities they're delivering here, but it seems like that's a safe number)
7) A Bunch of Hand Farming Tools - $1,000 (Another guesstimate)
8) A 1,000 gallon water storage tank - ~$700 [4]
So that takes us to about $17,600. Let's add another $5,000 for preparation, packaging, research and educational materials. Let's add another $5,000 for stuff that's more expensive than my guesstimates, and remove nothing for the article's claimed efficiencies that makes this so much more cost-effective than buying a la carte.
That still only puts us at $28,000, so either there's something I'm totally missing here, or this is total BS.
[1] http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/16-foot-wide-cold... [2] http://www.bimblesolar.com/3kwcomplete-sunny-island [3] https://www.berryhilldrip.com/Kit-Pro-2-This-Complete-Kit-wi... [4] http://www.plastic-mart.com/category/9/plastic-water-tanks
3) is underestimated. A typical shipping container is 40 feet long, so I think they ship a 32' not a 24' one. Also, 4' centers are necessary in most parts of the world: 6' will collapse under snow load in half the US. That's $600, not $400. The benches shown are at least another $400. Finally, the most expensive part of a greenhouse is the endwall and the plastic; probably +$500, making it $1500.
(I am a small farmer with a side job in tech.)
(I am a small farmer with a side job in tech.)
>That still only puts us at $28,000, so either there's something I'm totally missing here, or this is total BS.
Excellent, I roughly computed 26,000 US$ (actually 25,000 Euros), I was lower on the connectivity and on the solar plant and missed the water tank, but I will gladly accept a 10% increase, let's call it rounding.
Still we are around 100% margin, which should mean that the "manual" and "lessons" must be overpriced.
Excellent, I roughly computed 26,000 US$ (actually 25,000 Euros), I was lower on the connectivity and on the solar plant and missed the water tank, but I will gladly accept a 10% increase, let's call it rounding.
Still we are around 100% margin, which should mean that the "manual" and "lessons" must be overpriced.
where are you getting WWT containers for $2k? Last one I was involved in was about $8k for WWT + shipping and picking, which was about another $2k with some minimal site prep (pea gravel and railroad ties). Prices were slightly lower to buy them in Seattle instead of the closest port, but the lower purchase price was offset by the much larger shipping costs
I imagine theyre cheaper away from the coasts. Here in Memphis, TN you can get CWO for cheaper than that, including delivery https://westerncontainersales.com/shipping-container-prices/...
Interesting. An 8x45 WWT is indeed ~$2k on that site, and CWO is only marginally more. Thanks. Guess I should have looked for prices in SLC - $6k would pay for a lot of shipping
Don't forget the refrigeration system, which can easily cost $10-20k if they are getting a walk in one like the ones used by restaurants.
And they are doing this in San Francisco, which would greatly up the costs of everything vs doing it pretty much anywhere else. If they aren't careful with shipping everything to them that can easily eat $5k or more (a shipping container can cost more to move than the cost of the container itself).
And they are doing this in San Francisco, which would greatly up the costs of everything vs doing it pretty much anywhere else. If they aren't careful with shipping everything to them that can easily eat $5k or more (a shipping container can cost more to move than the cost of the container itself).
>Don't forget the refrigeration system ...
WHICH refrigeration system?
I cannot find any mention of it: "Every unit comes equipped with a renewable power system, internet connectivity, basic farm tools, micro-drip irrigation system and water pump that can be adapted to fit either a groundwell or municipal water supply.
Every Farm from a Box unit can be customized with optional components including sensors, water purification units, and even remote monitioring technology."
And it would IMHO have merited an icon in the picture here:
http://www.farmfromabox.com/about
WHICH refrigeration system?
I cannot find any mention of it: "Every unit comes equipped with a renewable power system, internet connectivity, basic farm tools, micro-drip irrigation system and water pump that can be adapted to fit either a groundwell or municipal water supply.
Every Farm from a Box unit can be customized with optional components including sensors, water purification units, and even remote monitioring technology."
And it would IMHO have merited an icon in the picture here:
http://www.farmfromabox.com/about
"A new thing that we’re deploying now is an internal cold storage system to make sure that we’re able to keep the crops fresher, longer, post harvest, before the crops actually get to market."
Yep, but then there wil be a "new price" corresponding to the "new thing".
AFAICU the US$ 50,000/60,000 is for the "current" thing, not for the "new" one.
AFAICU the US$ 50,000/60,000 is for the "current" thing, not for the "new" one.
Aka. an $800 fridge that they'll add in for another $5k.
Profits: $22,000.
I see a Davis Instruments weather station there, too. Another $600.
I have 4 acres. The last thing I need to grow vegetables is a weather station, wifi and a storage container. For $50K I'd want a backhoe/tractor - that would allow me to do some real work.
Also, where'd would I get the water for that water tank?
Also, where'd would I get the water for that water tank?
Or this one for $139: http://www.costco.com/AcuRite-Pro-5-in-1-Weather-Station-wit...
Actually, they do mention "sensors" - I wonder if that includes anything beyond the weather station?
Actually, they do mention "sensors" - I wonder if that includes anything beyond the weather station?
I think there is a thread above this one that nails the discrepancy: the target market here isn't poor Ethiopian villages. Rather, the target market is NGOs and governments who have funding to buy overpriced but cool stuff that looks like it will Make A Difference.
So you make something that's ostensibly targeted at poor rural villagers, and sell it to some deep-pocketed do-gooder entity at a huge markup.
So you make something that's ostensibly targeted at poor rural villagers, and sell it to some deep-pocketed do-gooder entity at a huge markup.
I would say corn, then potato. But you're right, the startup isn't being all that forthcoming with details and it's likely their claims are (greatly) exaggerated, or perhaps, from a purely "well, technically..." point-of-view.
There's an excellent article that champions the calories-per-acre metric by WP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-defense-of-...
In the calorie department, corn is king [..] corn averages roughly 15 million calories per acre [..] wheat comes in at about 4 million calories per acre, soy at 6 million. Rice is also very high-yielding, at 11 million, and potatoes are one of the few crops that can rival corn: They also yield about 15 million [..] Broccoli yields about 2.5 million calories per acre, and spinach is under 2 million
There's an excellent article that champions the calories-per-acre metric by WP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-defense-of-...
In the calorie department, corn is king [..] corn averages roughly 15 million calories per acre [..] wheat comes in at about 4 million calories per acre, soy at 6 million. Rice is also very high-yielding, at 11 million, and potatoes are one of the few crops that can rival corn: They also yield about 15 million [..] Broccoli yields about 2.5 million calories per acre, and spinach is under 2 million
If I was designing a two-acre farm to feed my family, I wouldn't devote much space to corn. Corn is a very useful crop but mostly once it's processed and you need a lot of it.
Here's what I think I'd grow:
Potatoes - Incredibly easy to grow. Produces a ton of food. Can be grown in trash cans on otherwise unusable land. Very versatile and useful in so many cuisines. If I had to place my bets on one staple crop, it's potatoes.
Green beans (Blue Lake variety or similar) - Also very easy to grow. You trellis them and they don't take up a lot of ground space. Incredibly bountiful crop--you'll have trash bags full from 50 sq ft of beans. Puts nutrients back in the soil--very good crop to rotate.
Kale - Nutritious, versatile crop. Easy to grow.
Tomatoes - Nutritious and so easy to grow. Can be grown vertically in raised pots for more space efficiency.
Tomatillos - Tasty, good for sauces. These grow as voraciously as the green beans.
Pumpkins, squashes, etc. - These are wandering vines so you can plant them in good soil on the edge of unusable land and let them grow out over the areas that you couldn't plant in.
Various lettuces - Not easy to grow--they're susceptible to pests and they bolt as soon as the weather gets too warm--but they grow fast and if your family likes salad, you'll eat a lot of them.
Here's what I think I'd grow:
Potatoes - Incredibly easy to grow. Produces a ton of food. Can be grown in trash cans on otherwise unusable land. Very versatile and useful in so many cuisines. If I had to place my bets on one staple crop, it's potatoes.
Green beans (Blue Lake variety or similar) - Also very easy to grow. You trellis them and they don't take up a lot of ground space. Incredibly bountiful crop--you'll have trash bags full from 50 sq ft of beans. Puts nutrients back in the soil--very good crop to rotate.
Kale - Nutritious, versatile crop. Easy to grow.
Tomatoes - Nutritious and so easy to grow. Can be grown vertically in raised pots for more space efficiency.
Tomatillos - Tasty, good for sauces. These grow as voraciously as the green beans.
Pumpkins, squashes, etc. - These are wandering vines so you can plant them in good soil on the edge of unusable land and let them grow out over the areas that you couldn't plant in.
Various lettuces - Not easy to grow--they're susceptible to pests and they bolt as soon as the weather gets too warm--but they grow fast and if your family likes salad, you'll eat a lot of them.
Seconding this. My dad's been trying to grow a bit of corn on our land in Texas for years, probably decades at this point. All we have to show for it is a once-a-year small ear of corn on Thanksgiving.
The potatoes, on the other hand, he grows by the bucket in piles of hay thrown into old, bald tires. I suspect the damned things will grow in anything that's been near a nutrient.
The potatoes, on the other hand, he grows by the bucket in piles of hay thrown into old, bald tires. I suspect the damned things will grow in anything that's been near a nutrient.
Yup. Something that I can recommend if you have children: just buy a large flower pot (15" diameter), put it on your balcony, and stick 2 potatoes in it.
Your children will see potatoes grow live, and you can eat them with them. Fun thing to do, very easy, and works so well.
For soil, just some normal soil you can dig out anywhere is enough, but you can also buy pre-fertilized soil if you wish (as said, the potatoes would even grow in garbage cans)
Your children will see potatoes grow live, and you can eat them with them. Fun thing to do, very easy, and works so well.
For soil, just some normal soil you can dig out anywhere is enough, but you can also buy pre-fertilized soil if you wish (as said, the potatoes would even grow in garbage cans)
Most important thing I would add to that is cabbage, which I believe you can grow together with the potatoes. Entire countries survived WW2 on cabbage and potato soup, it's very nutritious.
If you're after some flavour, I'd also add onions and celery, which I guess go in normal soil with the cabbage and potatoes, and also carrots, which will want sandy soil. There's a good reason these three veggies together form the basis of lots of French and Italian cooking.
If you're after some flavour, I'd also add onions and celery, which I guess go in normal soil with the cabbage and potatoes, and also carrots, which will want sandy soil. There's a good reason these three veggies together form the basis of lots of French and Italian cooking.
> Potatoes - Incredibly easy to grow.
I lost my entire crop to the Colorado Potato Beetle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_potato_beetle in 2016.
Note: "However, many chemicals are often unsuccessful when used against this pest because of the beetle's ability to rapidly develop insecticide resistance."
If that was my staple crop, I'd be dead of starvation right about now.
I lost my entire crop to the Colorado Potato Beetle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_potato_beetle in 2016.
Note: "However, many chemicals are often unsuccessful when used against this pest because of the beetle's ability to rapidly develop insecticide resistance."
If that was my staple crop, I'd be dead of starvation right about now.
The target market for this container seems to be Africa, which does not seem to have the Colorado potato beetle.
It would be wise to consider that until 1840, the potato blight was a non-issue in Ireland, too.
Of course the idea is not to hate on potato as a crop but rather to stress the importance of genetic diversity in one's food supply.
Of course the idea is not to hate on potato as a crop but rather to stress the importance of genetic diversity in one's food supply.
Agreed with you list. Corn can be interesting to feed chickens, though. (I mean maize when I say corn, do you guys mean maize or wheat?) BTW, you can grow beans in the corn, it grows over it.
I would add a bit of barley/oat but that's more work than the rest.
I would add a bit of barley/oat but that's more work than the rest.
Americans pretty universally mean maize when they say 'corn', fwiw.
And usually they mean dent corn specifically. Sweet corn, popcorn, etc. are typically said by their more detailed classification.
These are 1st year or 2nd year numbers. The output per-acre will steadily decline afterwards unless you know to set some land aside to be fallow and grow something that will return nitrogen to the soil.
And like was mentioned by dghughes, rotation is important. From about the middle ages to the early 20th century, European farmers practiced the three-crop rotation scheme. Winter wheat or rye in one field, peas, lentils or beans in a second, and the third would be "resting". It got replaced in Britain and Belgium with the four-crop rotation plan, which produced more calories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation
And like was mentioned by dghughes, rotation is important. From about the middle ages to the early 20th century, European farmers practiced the three-crop rotation scheme. Winter wheat or rye in one field, peas, lentils or beans in a second, and the third would be "resting". It got replaced in Britain and Belgium with the four-crop rotation plan, which produced more calories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation
The very optimistic 150 * 1700 * 365 metric above means that you need 93 Million / 15 Million = ~6.2 acres.
Jean-Martin Fortier, in Quebec (not known for its balmy climate), successfully runs a 200-family CSA on 1.5 acres, which is an even higher level of intensive cropping than this box proposes. No, not everything can be grown on 2 acres for 150 people, but you can grow all the vegetables needed.
A CSA with 200 customers != 'feed 200 people'. Yes with intensive agriculture methods you can grow enough to harvest 150 or 200 boxes of vegetables a week during most part of the year; that's still only - what? 10, 20% at most of the calorie intake of those people? And most of those calories are carbs, too - there's going to be very little protein and fat in those boxes. And not year round, either. Again, yes you can grow lots of potatoes (potatoes are better than e.g. corn for this purpose because they keep better than corn with only slightly lower caloric yield per area unit. Yes you can process corn e.g. into flour but that then has to be calculated into the total energy input, and it requires much more preparation afterwards to turn it back into edible food; again with high energy inputs) for a few years (need to rotate crops, especially nightshade family crops) to close the gap over the winter season; but fill your boxes with potatoes and a pumpkin here or there for 3 months once and watch your subscriptions plummet next spring.
People don't generally believe me when I say this, but I've made this point often: for self-sufficiency and/or small scale farming like the GP is proposing, you need a hectare (2 acres) to feed a family year-round. The reason people don't want to believe this is because it shows that it's impossible to do this sort of farming at scale, because there simply isn't enough land to feed everybody this way. So we need industrial scale farming today to produce the food people want in the quantities we need it.
I say this as someone with a 1 hectare experimental alternative agriculture plot; it's not that I don't want better, more sustainable agriculture systems. It's just that the 'solutions' being proposed are wildly insufficient, and I'm not talking double digit percentages, but orders of magnitude. How do we fix it - I don't know. But I do (by now) recognize snake oil and sophistry when I see it.
People don't generally believe me when I say this, but I've made this point often: for self-sufficiency and/or small scale farming like the GP is proposing, you need a hectare (2 acres) to feed a family year-round. The reason people don't want to believe this is because it shows that it's impossible to do this sort of farming at scale, because there simply isn't enough land to feed everybody this way. So we need industrial scale farming today to produce the food people want in the quantities we need it.
I say this as someone with a 1 hectare experimental alternative agriculture plot; it's not that I don't want better, more sustainable agriculture systems. It's just that the 'solutions' being proposed are wildly insufficient, and I'm not talking double digit percentages, but orders of magnitude. How do we fix it - I don't know. But I do (by now) recognize snake oil and sophistry when I see it.
"Rise of the High-Profit Micro Farm" appears to cover the topic in depth:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13310038
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13310038
Yeah farming is by far one of the hardest businesses in developed economy. It's a good idea for schools and the like, you know just to get the community spirit going and get in touch with nature, and other hippie stuff like that. But the reality is this is going to make not an iota of difference in the world. What is needed are better policies and laws on ethical farming, and holding up corporate conglomerates up to those laws.
There's a gardeners society here (Les Jardiniers de France) which sells a set of packets of seeds which are said to be able to grow on 200m2 and feed a family of 4 people.
They probably say 'grow vegetables for a family of 4'. On 200m2, you'd have an abundance of vegetables, yes; at least in warm climates like in southern France. But not enough to be self-sufficient, and a 200m2 traditional vegetable garden is a lot of work, too (one day a week, averaged over the year, probably?).
Takes a bit more then that to make a 200m2 plot thrive. My experience has been that it would roughly equate to 3-4 days of 4-6hrs. That is assuming you are keeping on top of all of the tasks and not using any serious tooling. If you do that and have good conditions/knowledge, you'll see a density that is enough to provide for 4 and generate a small surplus.
Does it pack a tractor in? Who's gonna till the soil? Very click-baity.
I can pack in all the required farming equipment needed for a 2 acre land in under $20,000 in India (including a good tractor!). And I get to chose what I want.
$50,000-$60,000 is a STEEP price tag to suggest to African farmers I assume! And then there would be a maintenance costs.
These are just two of the field tested equipments that work (with spare parts available throught the Indian market at least) and are available with many options - https://www.mahindratractor.com/ http://www.jains.com/irrigation/drip%20irrigation%20system.h...
I can pack in all the required farming equipment needed for a 2 acre land in under $20,000 in India (including a good tractor!). And I get to chose what I want.
$50,000-$60,000 is a STEEP price tag to suggest to African farmers I assume! And then there would be a maintenance costs.
These are just two of the field tested equipments that work (with spare parts available throught the Indian market at least) and are available with many options - https://www.mahindratractor.com/ http://www.jains.com/irrigation/drip%20irrigation%20system.h...
Also farms usually have a store room attached to keep the equipment. It's also cool in there cause it's made in a traditional way - thatched roof, wood, mud, thick walls etc. So it makes for a nice resting place when it's hot.
Why would anyone want to lose a piece of their farm land to keep a container and also pay for it!
Why would anyone want to lose a piece of their farm land to keep a container and also pay for it!
One reason why you may want a container is because it is a movable structure. That means that you do not need a building permit. Acquiring a building permit requires at least a class 5 road. This is the case for New Hampshire. I don't know how representative it is though. Also this not uncommon when for larger lots, but I'm not really sure if there are differences from lots as small as 2 acres.
If that were indeed a hard requirement, it seems like it would prevent a farmer building any structure within his property that's not adjoining a public (i.e. Class V) road.
And indeed the planning board can make an exception:
A private road, but as with Class VI roads, only if the governing body, after consulting with the planning board has adopted a policy allowing building on that particular private road, or portion thereof, and then only if the owner has recorded a notice in the registry of deeds acknowledging that the town is not liable for maintenance...
So I would think that a farmer that wants to build a storage shed on the far side of his field would be able to get a permit as long as it's accessible by some private road (even a class VI dirt road)
And indeed the planning board can make an exception:
A private road, but as with Class VI roads, only if the governing body, after consulting with the planning board has adopted a policy allowing building on that particular private road, or portion thereof, and then only if the owner has recorded a notice in the registry of deeds acknowledging that the town is not liable for maintenance...
So I would think that a farmer that wants to build a storage shed on the far side of his field would be able to get a permit as long as it's accessible by some private road (even a class VI dirt road)
Right, the governing body can make an exception for a particular private road. And in that case, you would be able to apply for a building permit. There are also provisions for exceptions in RSA 674:41 that would cause excessive hardship or practical difficulties. So it seems that the law has been made so that a local governing body has the discretion to made a pragmatic decision. However, this all assumes that the local governing body would indeed grant such an exception and that the land owner believes it is worth to effort. In the case of your hypothetical farmer, it is probably worth the effort. However, if you have a 2 acre lot and want to put a farm in a box on it, you might be happy to simply avoid dealing with the governing body and just plant your farm in a box on your lot and get to work.
Why are you guys talking about building policies in US, when this project is supposedly for under-developed countries?
Because if you read the article and their website they are focusing on USA first, with a couple of overseas experiments.
I guess the first reason is that I was providing an answer to question about why would you want to use a container. My answer comes from personal experience in New Hampshire. I mention New Hampshire specifically because I do not know how general that situation for the rest of the US or other countries. However, it seems reasonable that they may be equivalent restrictions in other place, thus providing a reason for why a container may be desirable.
Secondly, the project is not being marketed for specifically for under-developed countries. In the linked article they do mention their experience in Kenya and that one of their target markets are governments to support development projects or refugee camps. But they also state that they are targeting individuals in the US. Also their website makes it clear that under-developed countries are not the major focus.
Secondly, the project is not being marketed for specifically for under-developed countries. In the linked article they do mention their experience in Kenya and that one of their target markets are governments to support development projects or refugee camps. But they also state that they are targeting individuals in the US. Also their website makes it clear that under-developed countries are not the major focus.
Africa.
"need a building permit"
This is Africa, dude.
This is Africa, dude.
I live on a 2 acre hobby farm. Here are some obvious pieces missing from the box:
Tractor Backhoe Rototiller Auger Fencing
First necessity: water. Where will you get it from? They include a pump. That's nice. How will you dig the hole to get down to the water in order to pump it?
How will you dig the holes for your fence posts? Yes you can use a manual post-hole digger. That's what I did. I don't recommend it. Does the box include posts and wire?
How will you compost? I have several animals that generate a lot of manure. The easiest way to turn it is with a rototiller--preferrably connected to the PTO on the tractor because the manure pile is very large. It would take a day to turn it with a walk-behind tiller. It would take one day a week to collect the new manure by hand without a box scraper on a tractor.
Ever have to bury livestock? You need a deep hole. Anything too shallow attracts predators. I've buried a few by hand. I don't recommend it.
So, a little 25 hp tractor with a 3-pt PTO and accessories including auger, tiller, box scraper, backhoe, and front-end bucket is almost mandatory unless you have a lot of free labor. And this is supposed to be sustainable off-grid, so that needs to be electric. See the Global Village Construction Set (http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/).
Tractor Backhoe Rototiller Auger Fencing
First necessity: water. Where will you get it from? They include a pump. That's nice. How will you dig the hole to get down to the water in order to pump it?
How will you dig the holes for your fence posts? Yes you can use a manual post-hole digger. That's what I did. I don't recommend it. Does the box include posts and wire?
How will you compost? I have several animals that generate a lot of manure. The easiest way to turn it is with a rototiller--preferrably connected to the PTO on the tractor because the manure pile is very large. It would take a day to turn it with a walk-behind tiller. It would take one day a week to collect the new manure by hand without a box scraper on a tractor.
Ever have to bury livestock? You need a deep hole. Anything too shallow attracts predators. I've buried a few by hand. I don't recommend it.
So, a little 25 hp tractor with a 3-pt PTO and accessories including auger, tiller, box scraper, backhoe, and front-end bucket is almost mandatory unless you have a lot of free labor. And this is supposed to be sustainable off-grid, so that needs to be electric. See the Global Village Construction Set (http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/).
So...we have a director in business and another in marketing that live in San Francisco who thought it would be a good idea to sell farmers a bunch of junk they don't need...or is there market American's who extra money to throw around? I don't get the need...
1. Most people in undeveloped countries know how to farm, but just lack specific necessities.
2. Unless you have knowledge of these electronic components, how would you ever fix them if they broke? That isn't very sustainable..
3. What is the point if you have Amazon? Instead of a large container, FedEx drop's it off.
in other word's, they are attempting to create a business where there is no need.
1. Most people in undeveloped countries know how to farm, but just lack specific necessities.
2. Unless you have knowledge of these electronic components, how would you ever fix them if they broke? That isn't very sustainable..
3. What is the point if you have Amazon? Instead of a large container, FedEx drop's it off.
in other word's, they are attempting to create a business where there is no need.
> they are attempting to create a business where there is no need.
As 99% of startups :-)
As 99% of startups :-)
This reminds me (somewhat unfortunately) of the Playpump[1] which I saw referenced again in some product reading about really understanding customer and user needs in building new product. The Playpump was a playground toy that pumped water - got great PR and raised lots of money. Unfortunately it was also less efficient than existing pumps, required training, was more expensive and was not field repairable.
[1] http://unitedexplanations.org/english/2012/03/22/the-story-o...
[1] http://unitedexplanations.org/english/2012/03/22/the-story-o...
I used to work with a company that modified shipping containers for a whole slew of uses, including hydroponic growing of vegetables. Shipping containers present a great solution to food production but sadly many of the companies I've seen attempt to do this sort of thing get bogged down in the details of implementing them to various clients (such as the article's mention of testing in Ethiopia). One company, however, that has seemed to get it all right is http://www.freightfarms.com/ I'm very curious to see where they go. No affiliation, I just know a few happy customers of theirs.
Thought this was FreightFarms from the description. I haven't seen the important details on either side, but it seems a lot easier to guarantee yields and more automated / automate-able by FF than by DIY farm-in-a-box.
Why would you want to keep the sunlight out?
"a test plot [in Ethiopia] for Farm From a Box had to be cancelled, due to ethnic protests there"
There's a sentence that asks more questions than it answers.
There's a sentence that asks more questions than it answers.
Not specifically related to the farm. Ethiopia is a very non-free country, as is nearby Eritrea. We just don't hear much about it because journalism is impossible and the government is pro-west.
Can you explain "pro-west"? I suspect it means somebody who says "I like West. West will help us", not a liberal mind.
Liberal philosophy roughly means freedom and same rights to everyone, including very bad persons, in exchange to strict execution of written laws. So to be truly pro-west, person must advocate same right to everyone, including e.g. gays, and strong independent court for everyone, including e.g. top leaders and officials, which will adhere to written laws religiously. He also must fight to death with bribes and bribers.
Are you sure you labeling correct person with "pro-west" label?
PS.
It's looks like offtopic here. Should I delete this message?
Liberal philosophy roughly means freedom and same rights to everyone, including very bad persons, in exchange to strict execution of written laws. So to be truly pro-west, person must advocate same right to everyone, including e.g. gays, and strong independent court for everyone, including e.g. top leaders and officials, which will adhere to written laws religiously. He also must fight to death with bribes and bribers.
Are you sure you labeling correct person with "pro-west" label?
PS.
It's looks like offtopic here. Should I delete this message?
It's a tricky turn of phrase, as a UK English user I'd use "pro-West" to mean that a government was complicit with Western _governments_ requests. So things like allowing USA to have an airbase. Pro-West is along way off "sharing Western liberal ideals" which appears to be how you interpreted it. As the parent responded many Westerners don't do that.
For you, pro-west means what you are said. For me, if a politic is elected by us, I will expect that "pro-west" will serve us by standards of West, not serve West government requests at expense of us. It's relative term. It's why I'm trying to clarify.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, yes, "pro-west" is usually used to mean "compliant with US foreign policy", not "liberal". Regardless of whether this is a good thing by other standards.
By your metric, even large parts of the "west" and United States aren't "pro-west". Sadly.
By your metric, even large parts of the "west" and United States aren't "pro-west". Sadly.
I'm having a difficult time finding what is included in the box from the official website. "Sensor Technology", "Basic Tools", these trigger alarm bells in my head. The biggest cost component seems to be for the solar power, which I believe is used to power the irrigation system. Overall this sounds costly, has few details about the components need for farming, and shows off bells and whistles like "solar power, micro-drip irrigation, wi-fi and cloud, and data mapping".
I love the idea, but as a fairly well-off hobby farmer myself, there is no way I would spend that much on this product.
I bought 1 mile of drip tape for $150 off of https://www.berryhilldrip.com
Solar panels are a cheap commodity. There are charge controllers which will only turn on the DC if you're over a certain voltage for the pump.
Again, I love the idea, but its way off on execution at this point.
I bought 1 mile of drip tape for $150 off of https://www.berryhilldrip.com
Solar panels are a cheap commodity. There are charge controllers which will only turn on the DC if you're over a certain voltage for the pump.
Again, I love the idea, but its way off on execution at this point.
Even if the parts were very optimized price/performance wise, would it still be a good idea? I would imagine that each place has a specific biome that is suitable for specific crops, each person has a different amount of acrerage, etc.
You're right that situations are individual - but actually the water distribution side of things can be fairly generic.
But note that drip tape is incompatible with tractor-based agriculture and will only be used with perennial or labor intensive annual crops.
But note that drip tape is incompatible with tractor-based agriculture and will only be used with perennial or labor intensive annual crops.
Drip tape sometimes is used in tractor based agriculture.
They have a reel mount that lays the tape (usually when plastic is applied to the bed).
Then they throw the tape away at the end of the season.
Commercial strawberry growers use this quite often.
But yes, to your point, high dollar crops.
Then they throw the tape away at the end of the season.
Commercial strawberry growers use this quite often.
But yes, to your point, high dollar crops.
I had a similar idea years ago, the goal was to build a kit that someone from the developed world could use to go somewhere lacking in modern farming equipment, set themselves up as a sultan by buying cheap land, farming it effectively with hired labor, with the eventual goal of building yourself a palace.
I called it Sultanomics... it was a fairly juvenile daydream, that also included acquiring a Harem...
But, the base idea was that a rising tide lifts all ships, and that by increasing efficiency you could help to kickstart the economic development in an area that otherwise would remain stagnant.
But, the base idea was that a rising tide lifts all ships, and that by increasing efficiency you could help to kickstart the economic development in an area that otherwise would remain stagnant.
It's gotten more expensive since I first read about this back in 2015.
http://www.ecowatch.com/solar-powered-farm-from-a-box-everyt...
So in two years, they're still just at a single prototype installation? This almost sounds like it's just a back end for the founder's other ambitions, whatever they might be. A quick search of the name shows her as a speaker at some women's forums, (with the typical theme of "empowering others" and other social buzzwords) SXSW, and pics of her at Burning Man.
I think the concept is nice, but totally unaffordable for the third world nations that they say they want to serve. It's also not that people in the middle east/etc don't know how to farm. They often times just lack modern farming equipment. Not sure if a 'farm in a box' solution is what they actually need.
http://www.ecowatch.com/solar-powered-farm-from-a-box-everyt...
So in two years, they're still just at a single prototype installation? This almost sounds like it's just a back end for the founder's other ambitions, whatever they might be. A quick search of the name shows her as a speaker at some women's forums, (with the typical theme of "empowering others" and other social buzzwords) SXSW, and pics of her at Burning Man.
I think the concept is nice, but totally unaffordable for the third world nations that they say they want to serve. It's also not that people in the middle east/etc don't know how to farm. They often times just lack modern farming equipment. Not sure if a 'farm in a box' solution is what they actually need.
I dont see the point of this. If I were to start a farm I'd buy some farming books on amazon, do my research, and buy the best equipment part per part. I dont see why anyone would want to spend 50k on some random farming kit.
The ROI on this for the customer seems pretty terrible. Farms aren't known for their high margins. And in places like Oklahoma, the minimum viable commercial farm is about 640 acres. I'm having a hard time seeing how spending $50k on this farm kit is going to produce a commercial return. I could see how it might enable subsistence farming, maybe, but if you're at that level, you don't have $50k to spend.
There really are different 'cliques' on HN, depending on which subject is posted. And this one seems to be the 'not so positive' clique.
If framework is bench marked, or if people create a great CSS suite and animations, you get (mostly) constructive criticism.
A company is actually doing something about bigger issues which could positively affect the lives of many people in a sustainable way ... and we get this.
I'm not saying to turn off our skepticism and critical thinking, but at least recognize the effort and the potential of such an idea. It might introduce people who never though of farming to a whole new way of life.
It's not VR, or a new JS framework, but it has a lot of potential.(BTW I am a developer, and am not affiliated in any way with them).
If framework is bench marked, or if people create a great CSS suite and animations, you get (mostly) constructive criticism.
A company is actually doing something about bigger issues which could positively affect the lives of many people in a sustainable way ... and we get this.
I'm not saying to turn off our skepticism and critical thinking, but at least recognize the effort and the potential of such an idea. It might introduce people who never though of farming to a whole new way of life.
It's not VR, or a new JS framework, but it has a lot of potential.(BTW I am a developer, and am not affiliated in any way with them).
There are quite a few of us here with some farm experience that simply don't think this product ads up. Its like posting an article about a $50k Linux distro aimed at coffee shops.
I understand this, and maybe it's an opportunity for you to find out more about them considering your expertise.
Following your fact finding quest you could then post a detailed blog about your analysis for other HN'ers to read. I would be glad to read such a review with facts and figures explaining objectively what is wrong (or right!) about the proposed product.
Keep us posted!
Following your fact finding quest you could then post a detailed blog about your analysis for other HN'ers to read. I would be glad to read such a review with facts and figures explaining objectively what is wrong (or right!) about the proposed product.
Keep us posted!
One side of my family comes from a farming background, and I've been around working farms half my life, the impoverished near-subsistence type.
This product wouldn't be all that useful. The hard part of running a farm is knowing the local growing conditions, crops which work in these conditions, and then, the harrowing amount of work involved in getting the thing productive.
Drip irrigation is cool once set up, but it's not durable and you need to replace it frequently as it gets damaged, breaks down due to weather, some animal chews it, whatever. Their solar driven pump is indeed a labor saving device, but it's a low power low volume pump useful for drip irrigation. I can guarantee you that nobody's going to be supplying affordable drip irrigation gear in a poor area. However, given a well, a powerful irrigation pump would be a huge help, particularly if it can move enough volume to fill traditional irrigation ditches for the times drip tubing is unattainable.
The IoT metrics stuff isn't very useful. The sort of person who farms in the places targeted by this isn't very tech savvy, and what's more important than temperature and water delivery statistics is walking the field and inspecting for weeds and pests.
The shipping container could make a usable shed, but so would a traditional shed, usually made from scrounged, cheap, local materials.
If you want to help poor farmers, I would suggest the following - A powerful irrigation pump, after helping to drill a well, solar driven is cool. - A small ride-on type tractor built to be dead simple to fix and reliable with plowing, seeding, and harvesting attachments. This is the major work of running a farm. Bonus points if this thing doesn't require gasoline, but that would be prohibitively expensive in terms of solar and batteries, since duty cycle would be very high. - Some kind of good, watertight and pest resistant grain storage containers, enough to store a few tons. - A bunch of lessons in the local language teaching people how to maximize food production from minimal resources in a given part of the world. What crops, how to plant, weed, and harvest them, how to store the harvest. - A bunch of fertilizer and pesticide. This will run out one day, so perhaps lessons on how to farm without it, but that drops production to like 1/4 of what's possible for a given unit of land. Modern high density farming requires a permanent supply of modern chemicals.
Now, A farm in a box is a cool idea, and the market may be affluent hobbyists, but this won't fix food shortage problems because the gear in it isn't particularly useful to a small farm, but also because food shortage problems are primarily political.
This product wouldn't be all that useful. The hard part of running a farm is knowing the local growing conditions, crops which work in these conditions, and then, the harrowing amount of work involved in getting the thing productive.
Drip irrigation is cool once set up, but it's not durable and you need to replace it frequently as it gets damaged, breaks down due to weather, some animal chews it, whatever. Their solar driven pump is indeed a labor saving device, but it's a low power low volume pump useful for drip irrigation. I can guarantee you that nobody's going to be supplying affordable drip irrigation gear in a poor area. However, given a well, a powerful irrigation pump would be a huge help, particularly if it can move enough volume to fill traditional irrigation ditches for the times drip tubing is unattainable.
The IoT metrics stuff isn't very useful. The sort of person who farms in the places targeted by this isn't very tech savvy, and what's more important than temperature and water delivery statistics is walking the field and inspecting for weeds and pests.
The shipping container could make a usable shed, but so would a traditional shed, usually made from scrounged, cheap, local materials.
If you want to help poor farmers, I would suggest the following - A powerful irrigation pump, after helping to drill a well, solar driven is cool. - A small ride-on type tractor built to be dead simple to fix and reliable with plowing, seeding, and harvesting attachments. This is the major work of running a farm. Bonus points if this thing doesn't require gasoline, but that would be prohibitively expensive in terms of solar and batteries, since duty cycle would be very high. - Some kind of good, watertight and pest resistant grain storage containers, enough to store a few tons. - A bunch of lessons in the local language teaching people how to maximize food production from minimal resources in a given part of the world. What crops, how to plant, weed, and harvest them, how to store the harvest. - A bunch of fertilizer and pesticide. This will run out one day, so perhaps lessons on how to farm without it, but that drops production to like 1/4 of what's possible for a given unit of land. Modern high density farming requires a permanent supply of modern chemicals.
Now, A farm in a box is a cool idea, and the market may be affluent hobbyists, but this won't fix food shortage problems because the gear in it isn't particularly useful to a small farm, but also because food shortage problems are primarily political.
So far the criticism seems convincing and grounded in reality. You don't have to be a farmer to evaluate the comments regarding the overly high price for whats inside the container, absence of tractor. I would also trust the comments of the people who claim to have farming experience. Is there something you particularly disagree with?
>A company is actually doing something about bigger issues which could positively affect the lives of many people in a sustainable way ... and we get this.
Except, they're not, and some basic knowledge means their claims don't pass the sniff test. Hence the nalegativity, which seems warranted.
Except, they're not, and some basic knowledge means their claims don't pass the sniff test. Hence the nalegativity, which seems warranted.
> It might introduce people who never though of farming
Who hasn't thought of farming at some point? As a farmer myself, all I see is people falling over each other for a chance to do it.
The problem is that by the properties of supply and demand, that intense interest results in high costs and small profits, so in the end only a relative few can make it work.
Who hasn't thought of farming at some point? As a farmer myself, all I see is people falling over each other for a chance to do it.
The problem is that by the properties of supply and demand, that intense interest results in high costs and small profits, so in the end only a relative few can make it work.
HN is full of developers. It makes sense that developer-oriented products receive constructive feedback while posts for products in completely unrelated fields don't.
Talking about farming on a developer website is like demoing salon tools to a group of plumbers. You may get opinions, but they probably won't be the most informed or helpful.
Talking about farming on a developer website is like demoing salon tools to a group of plumbers. You may get opinions, but they probably won't be the most informed or helpful.
Why would you put it in a container? Containers are very hard to transport, you can't just throw it on the back of an ox cart, or pack mules. You need specialized - and expensive - transportation, as well as a special crane to unload it.
Not to mention that you kill the local suppliers of agricultural equipment.
And the price tag? Agricultural land is VERY cheap. You can buy an acre of the most expensive prime Corn Belt land for under $6000 [Edit: in some states this number is actually around $10k], while in emerging markets good land can go for as low as as few hundred dollars per acre.
So a single container that can be used to farm two acres of land, could be used to buy 10 acres of the best land in the US, or 200 acres of land (or more) in emerging markets. Or you could hire 20 farm workers for 4 years in India.
It is clear that the target is well-intended governments, who will write big checks, and leave the units rotting in some depot somewhere as they figure out what to do with it, draining resources which could be used in actual development (roads, infrastructure, rural insurance & credit).
San Francisco & Silicon Valley, please go back to solving First World problems.
Not to mention that you kill the local suppliers of agricultural equipment.
And the price tag? Agricultural land is VERY cheap. You can buy an acre of the most expensive prime Corn Belt land for under $6000 [Edit: in some states this number is actually around $10k], while in emerging markets good land can go for as low as as few hundred dollars per acre.
So a single container that can be used to farm two acres of land, could be used to buy 10 acres of the best land in the US, or 200 acres of land (or more) in emerging markets. Or you could hire 20 farm workers for 4 years in India.
It is clear that the target is well-intended governments, who will write big checks, and leave the units rotting in some depot somewhere as they figure out what to do with it, draining resources which could be used in actual development (roads, infrastructure, rural insurance & credit).
San Francisco & Silicon Valley, please go back to solving First World problems.
Not to diminish your larger point, but your figures for expensive farm land in the cornbelt appears outdated to me. Farmland in southern Indiana (corn/soybeans/wheat) is selling above $10k per acre, with some specific plots around $15k (though this is not strictly because of farming potential so much as location and natural resources). There have been some great increases in value the past few years.
Thanks for the info, I added a note!
It seems very unlikely that anyone wishing to start a farm would spend 50k on an all in one kit but instead carefully select individual components
I could see their idea of a parts kit working better for specific tasks than for "farming in general".
In my limited experience with mushrooms I almost instantly went from too much wood and sawdust to know what to do with to the opposite. Even in the field of mushrooms there are the wood varieties and the animal waste compost varieties. And I suppose the psychedelic varieties. I grew my own shiitake with some modest success. The people who burn their scrap woodworking wood are on to something in that a fire turns scrap into heat with 100% success which is a much higher success rate than I experienced with mushrooms.
Surely a veg garden kit would look wildly different than a grain farm kit. Ditto orchards and berries. Then you get into cash crops, I can't live off peppers directly but I can certainly grow a lot of them, and I can trade.
There is an aspect of specialization that I've fooled around with most of the above or have a family member who did, but my green thumb is container-style-garden pepper production and given a marginally functional economic system I'd be better off maxing out my pepper production, selling almost all of it, and buying a nice balanced diet, than trying to grow my own "everything".
In a grid-up normalcy situation my mint production is economically worthless, but in grid-down crash situation I suspect my mint would be quite valuable for flavoring. Grid down in USA is unlikely but has Ethiopia been grid up at any time since the 60s? Perhaps now? If so good, for them. But the point remains that not all of the world is booted up in the world economy and for areas that are not, some weird stuff like sunflower oil probably would sell pretty well until the world economy boots up again in that country. It might not matter if you can't get a shipping crate delivered intact to a down-grid situation country.
In my limited experience with mushrooms I almost instantly went from too much wood and sawdust to know what to do with to the opposite. Even in the field of mushrooms there are the wood varieties and the animal waste compost varieties. And I suppose the psychedelic varieties. I grew my own shiitake with some modest success. The people who burn their scrap woodworking wood are on to something in that a fire turns scrap into heat with 100% success which is a much higher success rate than I experienced with mushrooms.
Surely a veg garden kit would look wildly different than a grain farm kit. Ditto orchards and berries. Then you get into cash crops, I can't live off peppers directly but I can certainly grow a lot of them, and I can trade.
There is an aspect of specialization that I've fooled around with most of the above or have a family member who did, but my green thumb is container-style-garden pepper production and given a marginally functional economic system I'd be better off maxing out my pepper production, selling almost all of it, and buying a nice balanced diet, than trying to grow my own "everything".
In a grid-up normalcy situation my mint production is economically worthless, but in grid-down crash situation I suspect my mint would be quite valuable for flavoring. Grid down in USA is unlikely but has Ethiopia been grid up at any time since the 60s? Perhaps now? If so good, for them. But the point remains that not all of the world is booted up in the world economy and for areas that are not, some weird stuff like sunflower oil probably would sell pretty well until the world economy boots up again in that country. It might not matter if you can't get a shipping crate delivered intact to a down-grid situation country.
>...and even individuals who want to start a farm.
As a person who lives in a farming area this seems like putting a computer and a box of red bull in a box and labeling it "computer programmer kit".
I'm not a farmer but things like crop rotation, regulations, WHIMIS (pesticides/herbicides), dangers such as the PTO on the tractor and other farm dangers all needed training. You see at least once per year some farm hand injured by crushing or falling there are so many dangers.
As a person who lives in a farming area this seems like putting a computer and a box of red bull in a box and labeling it "computer programmer kit".
I'm not a farmer but things like crop rotation, regulations, WHIMIS (pesticides/herbicides), dangers such as the PTO on the tractor and other farm dangers all needed training. You see at least once per year some farm hand injured by crushing or falling there are so many dangers.
>We have a three-part training program that comes with the box. One: Covering sustainable farming, making sure everyone knows a little bit in terms of crop rotation, and composting, and intercropping. Two: Covering technology use and maintenance, making sure that the individuals know how to maintain and troubleshoot all of the components of the farm. Three: Farming as an enterprise, making sure that there is a market-based approach to farming.
So it's more like they give you a computer, a box of redbull, and a couple books on putting together a MEAN stack. I think it's a good start for someone who wants to get their feet wet.
So it's more like they give you a computer, a box of redbull, and a couple books on putting together a MEAN stack. I think it's a good start for someone who wants to get their feet wet.
That's a lot of investment for someone getting their feet wet. I've been growing food for my family at home for the last four years and while I don't have two acres to farm, I can tell you that equipment has been the least of my problems.
Learning to grow food has been a gradual process for me, learning what works for my soil and my climate. I can't imagine trying to start with a Conex full of equipment and two acres to farm, unless you have a local farmer there to help you along. It's so much easier to start small, a few hundred square feet, and to get the advice of a local gardening club or garden store when it comes to choosing what to plant.
Learning to grow food has been a gradual process for me, learning what works for my soil and my climate. I can't imagine trying to start with a Conex full of equipment and two acres to farm, unless you have a local farmer there to help you along. It's so much easier to start small, a few hundred square feet, and to get the advice of a local gardening club or garden store when it comes to choosing what to plant.
There was some internet co-op type company whose name escapes me right now, but they basically did this kind of work for farmers (and would be very helpful for newcomers). The idea was that every farmer who is a member will put in their crop yields along with location, soil quality, exact seed and source, how much fertilizer, etc. All of that data is then available to the other members.
So I could sign up, go on there and decide what to plant and how to do it from that kind of site. Maybe I heard of this on a This Week In Startups podcast?
Edit: I've found it. It's called Farmer's Business Network [1] and I did indeed hear about it on a This Week in Startups podcast [2].
[1] https://www.farmersbusinessnetwork.com/ [2] http://thisweekinstartups.com/amol-deshpande-fbn/
So I could sign up, go on there and decide what to plant and how to do it from that kind of site. Maybe I heard of this on a This Week In Startups podcast?
Edit: I've found it. It's called Farmer's Business Network [1] and I did indeed hear about it on a This Week in Startups podcast [2].
[1] https://www.farmersbusinessnetwork.com/ [2] http://thisweekinstartups.com/amol-deshpande-fbn/
Every state has a university extension system that provides free information for farmers and the general public.
For example, here's Oregon State University's page for small farms: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/sorec/farms
For example, here's Oregon State University's page for small farms: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/sorec/farms
... and will usually host free instructional talks, visits by researchers, etc. And in some cases will come out to your property at no charge to offer advice.
Not everyone has the luxury or desire for a "gradual process", but may have at least a sensible starting fund and the motivation to make it work. Sometimes the window of opportunity is small, and diving in fast is important (say, realize you have to grow your own food and spring is progressing - if you don't plant ASAP you're not getting to harvest).
I've long considered a similar "in a [shipping container] box" for fast-start retail establishments. Have access to retail space? have just days/hours to put up a fast-food shop? won't be perfect, but the box contains what you need to get a functioning restaurant delivered & running in hours. Likewise I can appreciate an "in a box" for a farm; get some cheap land and get what you need to reach harvest before snowfall.
I've long considered a similar "in a [shipping container] box" for fast-start retail establishments. Have access to retail space? have just days/hours to put up a fast-food shop? won't be perfect, but the box contains what you need to get a functioning restaurant delivered & running in hours. Likewise I can appreciate an "in a box" for a farm; get some cheap land and get what you need to reach harvest before snowfall.
I think if you have $50,000 you probably aren't really worried about what you will be eating in 5 months.
Supply chain and employment aren't guaranteed. Dependents need be fed. For some of us, self-sufficiency is axiomatic and dropping $50k for a starter box might seem sensible.
So the trucks will reliably deliver the $50,000 of valuable agricultural equipment but not $5000 of pasta?
I understand the idea of becoming self sufficient. It's the idea of spending $50,000 to make it happen because it suddenly became urgent that I think is not very realistic.
(of course 10 man-years of pasta is not an exciting nutritional adventure. I'd argue it's far more pragmatic than hoping you figure out how to farm in 8 weeks...)
I understand the idea of becoming self sufficient. It's the idea of spending $50,000 to make it happen because it suddenly became urgent that I think is not very realistic.
(of course 10 man-years of pasta is not an exciting nutritional adventure. I'd argue it's far more pragmatic than hoping you figure out how to farm in 8 weeks...)
If you're more than self sufficient you're of inherent value to your self sufficient rural neighbors and can expect a long happy life.
If you have $5K of easily movable commodity dollars, gold, pasta, in your basement, you're of value in another way, and you're probably not going to like that outcome.
If you have $5K of easily movable commodity dollars, gold, pasta, in your basement, you're of value in another way, and you're probably not going to like that outcome.
So hard. If we end up in a world where neighbors are shooting neighbors for pasta I hope someone gets me quick. I guess I'll make at least 1 tasty meal, even for a big band of brigands.
The post I initially responded to wasn't about self sufficiency, it was about buying it in a box and making it work in 1 season. I replied about the making it work in 1 season not being a particularly likely thing. Hence buying an easily movable commodity probably being a better use of the money, even if you aren't a cold blooded crack shot.
The post I initially responded to wasn't about self sufficiency, it was about buying it in a box and making it work in 1 season. I replied about the making it work in 1 season not being a particularly likely thing. Hence buying an easily movable commodity probably being a better use of the money, even if you aren't a cold blooded crack shot.
I guess I was looking at it from a long term community perspective rather than just brutality.
If in the long run you're a net positive to the neighbors you'll be "in" and life will be very good. Everyone loves the village blacksmith or brewer or fellow farmer or whatever.
On the other hand if you don't bring something to the table or just have a shopping bag of temporary loot then life will be much harder without the community.
If in the long run you're a net positive to the neighbors you'll be "in" and life will be very good. Everyone loves the village blacksmith or brewer or fellow farmer or whatever.
On the other hand if you don't bring something to the table or just have a shopping bag of temporary loot then life will be much harder without the community.
You think the $50,000 kit is relevant in that perspective?
Or is it something like 10 years of practice that is relevant?
Or is it something like 10 years of practice that is relevant?
A 50K box isn't going to make you self sufficient, especially without a supply chain for the farming supplies. If you want to be self sufficient, you're going to end up being a farmer first, and whatever else you are later.
Speaking as a restaurant owner, the constraint with setting up and running a restaurant is rarely with equipment. I can pretty much just order exactly what I want from Costco/Sysco/US Foods/local restaurant suppliers complete with design consultations and same-day delivery and installation - the limit is the hit that my wallet can take. What would a shipping container change for the audience that most likely has access to much of the same that I do? (Read: pretty much anywhere in first world countries, the difference is likely just a couple more days tacked on for delivery. Beyond that you're probably gonna hit the money wall very quickly - as if it wasn't difficult enough for me to fund restaurant upgrades, forcing me to rely on business credit lines.)
This seems like it's aimed at rural farmers in Africa and other developing nations who may have the know-how, but not the equipment or the means to get it. Presumably, the goal is for these things to be subsidized and then shipped out to establish self-sustaining farming.
In other words, it's probably not for when I get pissed off at my job and decide to move into my parents' house and work their two acres in Texas with no idea of what I'm doing.
In other words, it's probably not for when I get pissed off at my job and decide to move into my parents' house and work their two acres in Texas with no idea of what I'm doing.
I agree, it a good idea if a struggling farmer in a third world country need the help and the kit is available.
I didn't mean to sound dismissive but I pictured some random person ordering a farm kit off Amazon.
We all need to eat but I think farming is seen as a nothing job by many people in urban areas.
I didn't mean to sound dismissive but I pictured some random person ordering a farm kit off Amazon.
We all need to eat but I think farming is seen as a nothing job by many people in urban areas.
Just gonna get my feet wet with a small two-acre farm, which is supposedly able to feed 150 people.
Anyone remember Sun's "blackbox?"
https://www.engadget.com/2006/10/18/suns-project-blackbox-da...
I can't find the original stuff anymore, the "martian picture" was actually in Sun's collateral on their website though. You can't make stuff like that up. There is a certain magic when a corporation with real money produces that kind of marketing buzz. I vaguely remember a picture of a Katrina-like situation with a black box too, cause you need processing power when the city floods and people are dying, I can't remember if that was part of the official messaging or not, maybe I just dreamed it up..
There is absolutely some appeal to full turn-key looking solutions for things that pretty clearly don't have them. It strikes me a perfect "inside the echochamber" thinking to dream up a farm in a box like this. I'd bet not everyone on the design team even has a home garden. Sometimes they day dream up a new paradigm and a lot of times it's just pretty marketing buzz. 2 acre open field farming doesn't seem like a good fit, I could see some success if this was scaled in to modular green house farming or something like that, maybe more on the gardening scale than the farming one.
https://www.engadget.com/2006/10/18/suns-project-blackbox-da...
I can't find the original stuff anymore, the "martian picture" was actually in Sun's collateral on their website though. You can't make stuff like that up. There is a certain magic when a corporation with real money produces that kind of marketing buzz. I vaguely remember a picture of a Katrina-like situation with a black box too, cause you need processing power when the city floods and people are dying, I can't remember if that was part of the official messaging or not, maybe I just dreamed it up..
There is absolutely some appeal to full turn-key looking solutions for things that pretty clearly don't have them. It strikes me a perfect "inside the echochamber" thinking to dream up a farm in a box like this. I'd bet not everyone on the design team even has a home garden. Sometimes they day dream up a new paradigm and a lot of times it's just pretty marketing buzz. 2 acre open field farming doesn't seem like a good fit, I could see some success if this was scaled in to modular green house farming or something like that, maybe more on the gardening scale than the farming one.
The equipment needed depends a lot on the soil. There is no one size fits all solution, especially if you're optimizing for crop yield.
Which is why they mention in the article that they've built it to be modularisable, so it'll be adjusted for whatever is appropriate for your area.
It's a lot more like putting an iPad and MacBook pre-loaded with Xcode, git, other handy software, iTunes U courses, and a list of primary research & resource URLs with step-by-step directions for signing up to free & prepaid services.
While such "in-a-box" products are obviously limited & biased, they are a tremendously useful starting point for people who want to begin an endeavor but don't know where to start, don't want to get bogged down in selecting basic tools/services they don't yet understand, and don't yet know even the "well anyone who knows anything about XYZ knows you need at least a ABC and a PDQ" stuff.
Of course the contents are imperfect. BUT IT'S A START. Give someone what they need for a sensible starting point, then they can soon learn what they need to head in the direction they decide to go (after they know enough to understand what the options really are).
While such "in-a-box" products are obviously limited & biased, they are a tremendously useful starting point for people who want to begin an endeavor but don't know where to start, don't want to get bogged down in selecting basic tools/services they don't yet understand, and don't yet know even the "well anyone who knows anything about XYZ knows you need at least a ABC and a PDQ" stuff.
Of course the contents are imperfect. BUT IT'S A START. Give someone what they need for a sensible starting point, then they can soon learn what they need to head in the direction they decide to go (after they know enough to understand what the options really are).
$50,000 is pretty expensive for "a start". That is the price of a decent farmhand in the Midwest (for a year, maybe two if you don't like him so much) and probably a huge plot of land and a few employees in poor countries.
I probably spent $50k in my first two years on my farm.
* 30 HP tractor - $14k
* brushhog, back blade, cone spreader, log splitter - $3k
* 1,000 ft^2 greenhouse - $5k
* water to greenhouse - $5k
* haying equipment (baler, tedder, disk mower, rake) - $5.5k
* buckets, pails, tubs, lights, etc for livestock - $1k
* hoses, hand tools, etc. - $1k
* drip irrigation, raised beds, soil tests, etc. - $1k
* fencing materials - $5k
I could keep going down the list, but even just barely starting, I'm sure that the $50k number is correct.
Obviously, this package doesn't include haying equipment or chicken egg incubators or chicken feather removal machine, but I can easily imagine how you could spend $50k.
* 30 HP tractor - $14k
* brushhog, back blade, cone spreader, log splitter - $3k
* 1,000 ft^2 greenhouse - $5k
* water to greenhouse - $5k
* haying equipment (baler, tedder, disk mower, rake) - $5.5k
* buckets, pails, tubs, lights, etc for livestock - $1k
* hoses, hand tools, etc. - $1k
* drip irrigation, raised beds, soil tests, etc. - $1k
* fencing materials - $5k
I could keep going down the list, but even just barely starting, I'm sure that the $50k number is correct.
Obviously, this package doesn't include haying equipment or chicken egg incubators or chicken feather removal machine, but I can easily imagine how you could spend $50k.
The kit is for 2 acres. Probably no brush hog, log splitter, hay equipment or tractor.
I have 2 acres, crops, fowl, livestock. No log splitter. I borrow the hay equipment. The tractor is practically a must. It's easy to own 2 acres. Making it useful requires equipment or many persons of manual labor. a 25-30 hp tractor is very reasonable.
Yeah, I've hand tilled a tiny patch of ground. It's a lot of work. I think my next step would have been begging one of the neighbors to come in with their hobby tractor though.
I'm always sort of resistant to this type of thinking. You're not wrong, but if people are defeated because this kit tries to simplify some aspects of a difficult and experience driven process, then that's sad.
New things are hard. People should still try them. Also when I was a kid my dad basically did give me a box of computer parts, sans red bull, and said have it - and I broke it. I bent pins, I had to format, when I finally got it running I upgraded it and broke it again. Eventually I figured it out and here I am.
New things are hard. People should still try them. Also when I was a kid my dad basically did give me a box of computer parts, sans red bull, and said have it - and I broke it. I bent pins, I had to format, when I finally got it running I upgraded it and broke it again. Eventually I figured it out and here I am.
The problem is this isn't a PC and a can of Red Bull; it's an entire data center and a case of Red Bull.
That was my read on this, so thanks for confirming it. It seems like the most valuable part of this kit won't be in the box, and that's access to someone who knows the basics (and not so basics) of farming to guide the new box owners. I suppose there's the argument of "no one taught our ancestors to farm and they figured it out," but then how effective is this kit at all if you're winging it?
From the article it sounds like the idea is to distribute these through schools, NGOs, aid groups and the like. Those organizations would presumably provide the guidance on how to use all the stuff in the kit.
I could see that being pretty efficient, since the trainers would know exactly what tools and materials trainees will have on hand to work with, which should make it possible to create generalized training systems rather than having to build up a new curriculum for each trainee they work with.
I could see that being pretty efficient, since the trainers would know exactly what tools and materials trainees will have on hand to work with, which should make it possible to create generalized training systems rather than having to build up a new curriculum for each trainee they work with.
> all needed training
Absolutely true. I do think though that such a box would be coming with a big manual/e-learning/video course to complete the hardware.
Absolutely true. I do think though that such a box would be coming with a big manual/e-learning/video course to complete the hardware.
> this seems like putting a computer and a box of red bull in a box and labeling it "computer programmer kit".
Computer programmer kits like this exist and are called "bootcamps."
Computer programmer kits like this exist and are called "bootcamps."
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I could see one peace corp worker supporting two of these in a village. Ideally though he'd have to support two full crop years before there would be a chance that this would be self supporting. Even then a key part would break and the villagers would be unable to fund its replacement.
Also wouldn't the economics of that be pretty sticky? They'd be competing with local farmers.
>dangers such as the PTO on the tractor
Never mind the PTO , watch out for the hydraulics on the tractor...
Never mind the PTO , watch out for the hydraulics on the tractor...
Sounds like Garden of Eden Creation Kit (G.E.C.K.).
I think I like the farmbot.io idea a little bit better as it seems far more practical. After all I'm not looking to grow all my food but mainly the dirty dozen vegetables/fruits (as well as seasonal ones I like).
One of the main reasons I want to grow food though is some vegetables are not carried by my local grocery stores (I have to go to a farmer market or expensive grocery store). For example many grocery stores do not sell Japanese yams, Yuca, various peppers, or plantains (I suppose plantains would be difficult to grow).
I also would like to do it all inside as well (because I live in New England and have more inside space than outside and various other reasons). Basically a refrigerator size farming appliance that you plugin with plumbing and electricity.
One of the main reasons I want to grow food though is some vegetables are not carried by my local grocery stores (I have to go to a farmer market or expensive grocery store). For example many grocery stores do not sell Japanese yams, Yuca, various peppers, or plantains (I suppose plantains would be difficult to grow).
I also would like to do it all inside as well (because I live in New England and have more inside space than outside and various other reasons). Basically a refrigerator size farming appliance that you plugin with plumbing and electricity.
Unless they put the farmbot on wheels, you're talking about too small of a square footage to generate any interesting yields. You'll spend WAY more time maintaining the bot than you would just planting and mulching.
The farmbot development is important, but won't be commercially viable with the current fixed rail system.
The farmbot development is important, but won't be commercially viable with the current fixed rail system.
Well that is what I'm wondering. One of the big issues is real estate. I wonder if it would be more viable instead of just going 2D to make a more 3D system (ie stack plants ala hydroponics).
Obviously the sun is way more efficient and preferred but if you live in an area where the sun isn't exactly available that much of the year it might be worth it for some automated easy to use large indoor like closet system or cabinet particularly in more urban areas.
Obviously the sun is way more efficient and preferred but if you live in an area where the sun isn't exactly available that much of the year it might be worth it for some automated easy to use large indoor like closet system or cabinet particularly in more urban areas.
As much as it's fun to think about, food doesn't need to be grown in urban areas with expensive real estate.
Green houses and hydroponics are great, but they can just as well be done on cheap land.
The biggest difficulty in food production isn't land, water, and sunlight - its management at scale.
This is why the vast majority of everyone's calories comes from large tractor managed commodity crops.
As a metaphor, the easy part of IT is ordering the servers, switches, etc. The setup takes some labor, but the real difficulty is the ongoing management.
Green houses and hydroponics are great, but they can just as well be done on cheap land.
The biggest difficulty in food production isn't land, water, and sunlight - its management at scale.
This is why the vast majority of everyone's calories comes from large tractor managed commodity crops.
As a metaphor, the easy part of IT is ordering the servers, switches, etc. The setup takes some labor, but the real difficulty is the ongoing management.
> food doesn't need to be grown in urban areas with expensive real estate.
It doesn't need to. But there's an increasing push towards looking for ways to cut the environmental effects of farming, and there transport is part of the challenge. There's also an increasing push for cutting time to market, despite traditional farms being further and further away from most consumers.
Hydroponics in urban areas is likely to converge on the mass market from two directions: Environmentalists looking for options that cut land use and transport, and up-market foodies willing to pay extra for products that are "straight from the farm two doors down" in the middle of a city.
Whether it eventually will get cost effective enough to supplant normal farms is another matter.
It doesn't need to. But there's an increasing push towards looking for ways to cut the environmental effects of farming, and there transport is part of the challenge. There's also an increasing push for cutting time to market, despite traditional farms being further and further away from most consumers.
Hydroponics in urban areas is likely to converge on the mass market from two directions: Environmentalists looking for options that cut land use and transport, and up-market foodies willing to pay extra for products that are "straight from the farm two doors down" in the middle of a city.
Whether it eventually will get cost effective enough to supplant normal farms is another matter.
I so sympathize with this view. I used to hold it.
After experimenting with the hydroponics, vertical growing, etc. I've come to realize the best way to cut the environmental effects of farming is to make traditional boring broad acre farming restorative and regenerative. Moving farms into cities simply won't produce enough calories profitably enough to make any meaningful positive environmental impact.
Amazingly enough, there are a large number of well-educated farmers out there that are moving to no-till, alley cropping, key line design for water retention, and perennial crops.
One of the best voices for this new generation of farmers is Mark Shepard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnoeb1x-XVA
After experimenting with the hydroponics, vertical growing, etc. I've come to realize the best way to cut the environmental effects of farming is to make traditional boring broad acre farming restorative and regenerative. Moving farms into cities simply won't produce enough calories profitably enough to make any meaningful positive environmental impact.
Amazingly enough, there are a large number of well-educated farmers out there that are moving to no-till, alley cropping, key line design for water retention, and perennial crops.
One of the best voices for this new generation of farmers is Mark Shepard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnoeb1x-XVA
yet
Maybe it never will, but we won't know without trying.
> I've come to realize the best way to cut the environmental effects of farming is to make traditional boring broad acre farming restorative and regenerative.
But none of that can fully counter the massive land use, nor does it address the increasing effects of transport necessary to handle increasingly urban populations and increasing expectations of short delivery times.
Maybe it never will, but we won't know without trying.
> I've come to realize the best way to cut the environmental effects of farming is to make traditional boring broad acre farming restorative and regenerative.
But none of that can fully counter the massive land use, nor does it address the increasing effects of transport necessary to handle increasingly urban populations and increasing expectations of short delivery times.
What if you put the FarmBot plotter on wheels or rails and let it move up and down rows of boxes?
I haven't looked a ton at its performance characteristics but I would imagine it spends a lot of time sitting idle with the current plot they're maintaining.
But a similar bot that could maintain 4'x8' boxes and then roll on to the next one could be interesting. Or even one that could manage continuous line of plots of a given width, e.g. 4' wide
I haven't looked a ton at its performance characteristics but I would imagine it spends a lot of time sitting idle with the current plot they're maintaining.
But a similar bot that could maintain 4'x8' boxes and then roll on to the next one could be interesting. Or even one that could manage continuous line of plots of a given width, e.g. 4' wide
You should be able to grow all those indoors. I had a friend who grew bananas and lemons in containers in a Minnesota climate; he moved the plants indoors when it got too cold.
Since the jury is in, this is bad idea / vaporware I do find it interesting it's currently at 380 points on HN.
I' like to think it was up voted as an example of a bad idea, but I suspect not.
I' like to think it was up voted as an example of a bad idea, but I suspect not.
These people don't actually make anything, they just buy a bunch of items and resell them as a package, it has to be overpriced for them to make any money. It seems like a really dumb idea for a business, anyone with any sense would just do their own research and buy what they need themselves. Notice they specifically want to work with governments, which typically means creating elaborate lying games in order to get access to stolen money.
There is an agricultural startup also using containers, first for strawberries, but they literally want to grow fruits or vegetables in a container, while aiming at a better taste: http://www.agricool.co/
The idea seems to target cities, to decrease the time to market, so that they can optimize the fruits or vegetables for taste and not for conservation.
The idea seems to target cities, to decrease the time to market, so that they can optimize the fruits or vegetables for taste and not for conservation.
Kind of weird that they use a 40 foot container in most of their illustrations when it clearly states that they will be developing a 20 foot version first.
This Brandi DiCarli?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro4Mn7i7hQ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro4Mn7i7hQ8
Yup, seems like it. hahaha
> Every box also comes with its own renewable energy system. Everything is solar. We’ve got three kilowatts of solar energy pre-installed on the actual kit.
What do they mean by this? Kilowatt is not a unit of energy, but a unit of power. Does that mean they provide equipment that is rated to produce three kilowatts? I'm no farmer but that sounds like awfully little power for power-hungry farm equipment.
What do they mean by this? Kilowatt is not a unit of energy, but a unit of power. Does that mean they provide equipment that is rated to produce three kilowatts? I'm no farmer but that sounds like awfully little power for power-hungry farm equipment.
I think the problem here is going to be with the agricultural industry. If major industry leaders perceive these as a threat to their operations, it's likely that they will lobby congress to either regulate these our of existence, or somehow just make them flat out illegal.
I had less capital tied up in my >100 acre farm for many years than this small box costs. I'm not quite sure who is going to buy it at all, let alone it reaching a point of it becoming some kind of threat.
My first thought was "How can they fit two acres of topsoil in a shipping container?"
no, it's filled to the brim with 100% bullshit. taking the VC game to the next level.
The average income in Africa is below $1000 / year. You aren't going to sell a $60,000 container to a subsistence farmer, even if the whole town pitches in.
From the title I was hoping to see a farm in a box (shipping container converted to a microfarm/greenhouse with solar panels or something).
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http://www.agricool.co/ does this better
We'll look back on this article and it will sum up dysfunctional optimism around the idea of a 'startup'
surprised no one has mentioned farmbot yet. for those with much less space than 2 acres, or just want to start smaller: https://www.farmbot.io
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If anyone hasn't read it, check out The One Straw Revolution, and compare to this approach.
Love the profit margins!
It seems odd to me that this is a for-profit company.
Well, someone has to profit from the non-profits, right? The "team" page looks very unlike what you would expect from a company that tries to sell to actual end users. Altruism-as-a-service? My impression is that their plan is to sell shippable pumps not to those who will use them but to whoever wants to ship them. First season Claire Underwood would be their perfect customer (and would hold a massive stake).
Or not sell at all: if you draw a line between for-profit and for-investment, they might not even be the former.
Or not sell at all: if you draw a line between for-profit and for-investment, they might not even be the former.
Profits are the things that allow valuable products to scale.
Its odd to me that Venezuela thought that getting rid of profits for producers would help society.
Its odd to me that Venezuela thought that getting rid of profits for producers would help society.
Non-profit doesn't mean the company can't make a profit on what it sells or even pay employees a fair salary. It does mean that profits go back into the company, rather than having profits siphoned off by investors and shareholders. Non-profit is pro-reinvestment and therefore pro-scaleup.
>It does mean that profits go back into the company, rather than having profits siphoned off by investors and shareholders.
Why is money going back into the company "good", but investors get the negative connotation of "siphoning" money? What is with the disdain for the people who own the company making money from it?
Why is money going back into the company "good", but investors get the negative connotation of "siphoning" money? What is with the disdain for the people who own the company making money from it?
> Why is money going back into the company "good", but investors get the negative connotation of "siphoning" money?
Because that is exactly what's happening?
If the company produces just enough to break even, the money is distributed fairly.
But if more money is earnt, this entire surplus goes to the investors (or, in recent years, also to management).
This means that while the wages of the workers stagnate with increasing productivity, the profits of the investors go up. The worker is producing an additional vakue, but all of that goes to the capitalist.
— paraphrased from Das Kapital, by Karl Marx.
Because that is exactly what's happening?
If the company produces just enough to break even, the money is distributed fairly.
But if more money is earnt, this entire surplus goes to the investors (or, in recent years, also to management).
This means that while the wages of the workers stagnate with increasing productivity, the profits of the investors go up. The worker is producing an additional vakue, but all of that goes to the capitalist.
— paraphrased from Das Kapital, by Karl Marx.
I didn't say it was good or bad. Siphoning of money is what happens with investment, that's why people invest -- so they can get some of the profit/growth back for themselves!
Like witty_username pointed out. With a non-profit there are no investors or shareholders. Not only that they will not want to, but investors are not allowed. It doesn't mean the company can't make profits, it just means no one will be taking profits from investment.
It's not good or bad, but it does mean that most of the profit goes back into the company, which is good for growth. It also means there aren't investors which are the primary source of growth for most startups. Non-profits that make profit have to do so directly though sales or donations. And profit made is mostly reinvested.
There was no good or bad judgement there, it is just a different model and some aspects of that model mean more growth and some mean less.
It also means the founders likely won't become billionaires (because the founders don't own a stake), but the company could still be worth billions -- in terms of how much money they have on hand or take in. That profit is supposed to be locked into the company for the purpose of performing the mission of the company. Which can include paying salaries to further the mission.
These are the reasons most "benefit companies" are non-profit. Trying to do good in the world so all donation (rather than investment) and profit goes toward the goal rather than investors and why I was surprised that this company is not.
Like witty_username pointed out. With a non-profit there are no investors or shareholders. Not only that they will not want to, but investors are not allowed. It doesn't mean the company can't make profits, it just means no one will be taking profits from investment.
It's not good or bad, but it does mean that most of the profit goes back into the company, which is good for growth. It also means there aren't investors which are the primary source of growth for most startups. Non-profits that make profit have to do so directly though sales or donations. And profit made is mostly reinvested.
There was no good or bad judgement there, it is just a different model and some aspects of that model mean more growth and some mean less.
It also means the founders likely won't become billionaires (because the founders don't own a stake), but the company could still be worth billions -- in terms of how much money they have on hand or take in. That profit is supposed to be locked into the company for the purpose of performing the mission of the company. Which can include paying salaries to further the mission.
These are the reasons most "benefit companies" are non-profit. Trying to do good in the world so all donation (rather than investment) and profit goes toward the goal rather than investors and why I was surprised that this company is not.
Without profits investors and shareholders won't invest.
Indeed, you could consider investors and shareholders in a similar manner to workers and lenders; investors provide money and in exchange the company gives them profits.
Indeed, you could consider investors and shareholders in a similar manner to workers and lenders; investors provide money and in exchange the company gives them profits.
> Indeed, you could consider investors and shareholders in a similar manner to workers and lenders; investors provide money and in exchange the company gives them profits.
To clarify:
Investors provide money once and in exchange the company gives them (or whomever they transfer the stock to) profits forever.
Is there any model which allows a structure for stocks to expire after a reasonable period (10-20 years but it would vary by industry).
To clarify:
Investors provide money once and in exchange the company gives them (or whomever they transfer the stock to) profits forever.
Is there any model which allows a structure for stocks to expire after a reasonable period (10-20 years but it would vary by industry).
I guess the model for that is an interest-bearing loan.
Many. Loans. Or a lot of infrastructure development has been funded through leases where the leaseholder under contract develops or funds development of the infrastructure in return for the right to extract value from it for a predefined time. E.g. a lot of hydro development in Norway happened by offering investors a multi-decades lease on the commercial exploitation of a given waterfall, on the condition that they covered the cost of developing a damn and power plant.
The problem is the level of risk. With something well understood like a waterfall, there was still plenty of risk (dry years etc.; fluctuations in demand and cost; natural disasters), but it is risk that is reasonably easy to quantify within sufficient levels to insurance against part of it, and cover the rest by asking for sufficiently beneficial leasing terms to make it attractive without a permanent share.
But with a startup with a new model, the risk is extremely hard to quantify other than assuming it is high. That'll make investors demand a lot more.
Plenty of companies are funded through bank loans or other forms or debts or leases or have the financial power to demand buy-back clauses, but they're usually "boring" companies where returns are stable-ish or at least very well understood.
(that said, I did once work at a company where we partnered with a German tech company that had been built on the back of bank loans; it took an extreme level of financial discipline - the bank paid out in monthly tranches on the basis evidence they'd stuck to their very detailed plans; basically they'd put in a massive effort to de-risk a business that would normally be too risky for most banks)
The problem is the level of risk. With something well understood like a waterfall, there was still plenty of risk (dry years etc.; fluctuations in demand and cost; natural disasters), but it is risk that is reasonably easy to quantify within sufficient levels to insurance against part of it, and cover the rest by asking for sufficiently beneficial leasing terms to make it attractive without a permanent share.
But with a startup with a new model, the risk is extremely hard to quantify other than assuming it is high. That'll make investors demand a lot more.
Plenty of companies are funded through bank loans or other forms or debts or leases or have the financial power to demand buy-back clauses, but they're usually "boring" companies where returns are stable-ish or at least very well understood.
(that said, I did once work at a company where we partnered with a German tech company that had been built on the back of bank loans; it took an extreme level of financial discipline - the bank paid out in monthly tranches on the basis evidence they'd stuck to their very detailed plans; basically they'd put in a massive effort to de-risk a business that would normally be too risky for most banks)
Water.
I went to their funding page and read more about what's inside the "box" https://republic.co/farm-from-a-box
1: micro-drip irrigation system
2: 3kW solar power
3: Pumping System
4: IOT setup
5: Energy management
6: Basic farm tools
As of 2016, average cost of solar power is approximately $3.00 per watt so ~ $9K. I have installed a decent sized drip water irrigation system in my backyard purchased with stuff off of Amazon for a total of $200 max. IOT is unnecessary here. I mean would "poor" people require to purchase Iphones and Macbooks too to see data collected from the IOT setup? A manual water pump like this (http://www.top-pumps.com/pro/20090613195613.jpg )or even an electric one does not go north of $1k-1.5k. Most solar panels and reserve battery system come with a built-in energy management feature. This box does not even contain a variety of seeds, soil, fertilizer and other mandatory things required for proper farming. Think outside the box.