Launch HN: SharpestMinds (YC W18) – Online Community for AI Devs
72 comments
I recruit in this area and wish you all the best. One piece of advice: change your name. In my experience the sharpest minds are intellectually honest to a fault, and would rarely describe themselves that way.
I'd go further and say: The current name is outright cringeworthy.
Agreed. The name seems like an advertisement that you think everyone outside your company or community is less intelligent. IMO that crosses the line separating puffery / self-promotion from outright insult.
Definitely not intended that way. We'll put some thought into changing it based on everyone's feedback.
Thanks for the feedback! We're open to a change. Let me know if you have any thoughts.
The Neural Network
how about "the ai folks". Emphasis on 'the'
or as Sean Parker would say: Drop the "The", just "ai folks".
cogs
It’s like asking Bill Gates to join a community ‘filthyRich’ it correctly correlates with his wealth. But we also know, he would instantly hit the spam button on such a pitch.
Funny, had the very same thought.
After I cringed at the name, I thought you must mean the people who develop the sharpest AI minds. If so, that would be clever.
But yeah, a different name would be better.
But yeah, a different name would be better.
> However, you don't need a degree at all (a few of our users are self-taught high school dropouts), and anyone who knows the material is welcome.
> To qualify for joining, you do an online deep learning quiz (here: https://www.sharpestminds.com/members/apply), followed by a technical interview.
> Once you join you get access to a job board with exclusive (i.e., not scraped) internship and full-time opportunities on it.
These three constraints don't reconcile with each other.
Yes, new ML/AI resources like TensorFlow and MOOCs have made AI more accessible, and that having a degree is no longer required to implement ML/AI. I agree it's unnecessary gatekeeping to require a degree to be able to play with ML/AI.
But what showy YouTube videos and Medium thought pieces don't teach is implementing ML/AI in practice to solve business problems. The stereotypical quiz + technical interview for the ability to join the service won't account for that.
When I was looking for jobs last year, 100% of the job openings for ML/AI (as opposed to Data Analyst/Data Scientist) required a Masters/PhD. In that case, I can't blame them, since there is a certain amount of experience and knowledge required to define problems and work up statistically sound solutions that can't be done by simply adding layers to a neural network or ensembling XGBoost models.
> To qualify for joining, you do an online deep learning quiz (here: https://www.sharpestminds.com/members/apply), followed by a technical interview.
> Once you join you get access to a job board with exclusive (i.e., not scraped) internship and full-time opportunities on it.
These three constraints don't reconcile with each other.
Yes, new ML/AI resources like TensorFlow and MOOCs have made AI more accessible, and that having a degree is no longer required to implement ML/AI. I agree it's unnecessary gatekeeping to require a degree to be able to play with ML/AI.
But what showy YouTube videos and Medium thought pieces don't teach is implementing ML/AI in practice to solve business problems. The stereotypical quiz + technical interview for the ability to join the service won't account for that.
When I was looking for jobs last year, 100% of the job openings for ML/AI (as opposed to Data Analyst/Data Scientist) required a Masters/PhD. In that case, I can't blame them, since there is a certain amount of experience and knowledge required to define problems and work up statistically sound solutions that can't be done by simply adding layers to a neural network or ensembling XGBoost models.
You're right, but this is the same catch-22 for getting started in any nontrivial field. How do I get experience if getting a job requires experience?
Having an MSc / PhD in the field doesn't resolve this. HR departments use grad degrees as first-pass filters, and thereby miss self-taught people who are genuinely competent.
We try to solve for this by easing people into jobs with internships and work terms first. The community is a key part of that since it supports them if they get stuck on an implementation problem. And of course we're incentivized to make sure members perform well in the internship phase, since we make money when they're hired full time.
Having an MSc / PhD in the field doesn't resolve this. HR departments use grad degrees as first-pass filters, and thereby miss self-taught people who are genuinely competent.
We try to solve for this by easing people into jobs with internships and work terms first. The community is a key part of that since it supports them if they get stuck on an implementation problem. And of course we're incentivized to make sure members perform well in the internship phase, since we make money when they're hired full time.
In this case there is no catch-22, you get experience by getting a Masters or a PhD. The truth is that there are enough people graduating with PhDs, and even more with Masters, that no one really needs to bother with people without a high school degree. The signal to noise ratio even for people with "just an undergraduate degree" is so high that I can't imagine even going to that level.
I completely agree. Machine Learning is on the way to become a field like Web Development. There is a huge supply/demand gap that will only get wider.
With the caveat that holding a PhD is positively correlated with success in ML, and negatively correlated with success in web dev.
(I'm guessing.)
(I'm guessing.)
Having done both with varying success, I definitely agree that your brain needs to be wired differently for each.
In web dev, experimentation is cheap, so you make changes fast and see what happens. In many ML applications, trying stuff is expensive in time and/or money. So the best strategy is often to think hard about what could be going wrong, and make and test explicit hypotheses.
The difference definitely came as a surprise to me when I was making the transition.
In web dev, experimentation is cheap, so you make changes fast and see what happens. In many ML applications, trying stuff is expensive in time and/or money. So the best strategy is often to think hard about what could be going wrong, and make and test explicit hypotheses.
The difference definitely came as a surprise to me when I was making the transition.
Yeah, web dev seems to favor the bold, whereas DL or other highly brainy endeavors seem to favor the thorough / careful developer.
For a long time as a non-web dev, I reckoned that I was smarter than 99% of the web devs. Then a web-dev friend of mine made his first few million $, and I reached some humbling conclusions.
For a long time as a non-web dev, I reckoned that I was smarter than 99% of the web devs. Then a web-dev friend of mine made his first few million $, and I reached some humbling conclusions.
Sounds like I should start moving towards ML...
I always felt it was the other way around - using MOOCs or online tutorials makes applying machine learning to business problems in practice a whole lot easier. But in terms of inventing new algorithms, deeply understanding the theory and origin of things, and doing active ML/AI research, that still seems to be in the realm of requiring a PhD (i.e. the difference between a "data scientist" and an ML/AI researcher).
That's true: the reason I started looking into AI is to broaden my knowledge on how it can be used to solve problems in ways traditional ML/traditional modeling can't. I did have a strong statistical/data background in college beforehand which helped validate which approaches were good/bad/wrong, though.
The YouTube/Medium posts however advocate "Learn Machine Learning from scratch in 3 Months!" which is a problem.
The YouTube/Medium posts however advocate "Learn Machine Learning from scratch in 3 Months!" which is a problem.
How long does it take to 'learn machine learning'? I'm pretty sure I know some about it. I can certainly apply some basic algorithms and there's no shortage of info about lots of variations on the basics I do already know. So what am I missing? How much would I have to learn to be able to claim, per your unstated standard, that I've 'learned machine learning'?
Some feedback on the quiz:
- a few of the questions were very good, and either spoke to key high level concepts, or were specific while being language agnostic. (e.g which one of these layers wouldn't you need, why wouldn't this type of classifier work on this data).
- too many of the questions were hyper-focused on the minutiae of word embeddings, tensor flow syntax, SQL queries, and recommender schemes.
- many of the questions were constructed vaguely enough that "I don't know" would be the technically correct answer even though I don't think that was what you were going for.
metadata: recent PhD with serious grad courses in ML and working in DL/CV for the past year using a non-tensorflow framework (PyTorch).
- a few of the questions were very good, and either spoke to key high level concepts, or were specific while being language agnostic. (e.g which one of these layers wouldn't you need, why wouldn't this type of classifier work on this data).
- too many of the questions were hyper-focused on the minutiae of word embeddings, tensor flow syntax, SQL queries, and recommender schemes.
- many of the questions were constructed vaguely enough that "I don't know" would be the technically correct answer even though I don't think that was what you were going for.
metadata: recent PhD with serious grad courses in ML and working in DL/CV for the past year using a non-tensorflow framework (PyTorch).
This is great feedback. Thanks!
We're constantly iterating on the quiz and it would be great to get more detailed thoughts on it.
If you'd like to do that, please get in touch! (Email in my profile)
We're constantly iterating on the quiz and it would be great to get more detailed thoughts on it.
If you'd like to do that, please get in touch! (Email in my profile)
would be happy to, but I don't see your email there -- mine's in my profile (I think!) if you'd like to get in touch
Sorry, realized it wasn't public. Just updated, should be there now!
Took the quiz and completely agree. Most questions were either overly concerned with detail or too vague.
High-level I don't think a quiz is necessarily the right tool either. Reminds me too much of taking the SAT or GRE.
High-level I don't think a quiz is necessarily the right tool either. Reminds me too much of taking the SAT or GRE.
Yeah we definitely aren't convinced that a quiz is the optimal format for this evaluation.
Statistically, it does an OK job at being an initial filter. My biggest concern at the moment is that it's too coarse of a tool and it might be mistakenly turning away competent people.
Definitely a work in progress. If you have ideas on alternative formats or better questions, please email me. (Email in my profile.)
Statistically, it does an OK job at being an initial filter. My biggest concern at the moment is that it's too coarse of a tool and it might be mistakenly turning away competent people.
Definitely a work in progress. If you have ideas on alternative formats or better questions, please email me. (Email in my profile.)
First thing my sharp mind noticed is that the page sends data to connect.facebook.net
Why does Facebook have to know what I am doing jobwise?
Why does Facebook have to know what I am doing jobwise?
Good catch, this is a leftover facebook pixel from back when we were experimenting with FB ads. Just created a GitHub issue to rip it out
Why not create a tiered community. Beginner. Learning. Expert.
Beginner - Anyone with an interest similar HN. Maybe resource to get into the Learning Area.
Learning - Place to find others learning the material. Maybe find other people study with. or collaborate/reproduce projects.
Experts - people actively looking for employment(what you already have planned).
Beginner - Anyone with an interest similar HN. Maybe resource to get into the Learning Area.
Learning - Place to find others learning the material. Maybe find other people study with. or collaborate/reproduce projects.
Experts - people actively looking for employment(what you already have planned).
Great idea! We're actually in the process of doing this. Pilot version is 1 week away.
We're starting with 2 tiers instead of 3, but the goal is similar.
We're starting with 2 tiers instead of 3, but the goal is similar.
Not to sound rude or anything, but the name is kinda douchey and outputting.
SharpestMindsAmongstAllNonDouchebags.com ?
Fair enough. Any suggestions?
Not a clue, I'm bad at names lol. Sharp Minds would probably be fine, just Sharpest Minds makes it sound like you're talking down to anyone who isn't involved in AI (which is like 99.99999999% of people).
Or if it was a clever reference to something in AI that made you sound smart but because it was a clever reference comes off more funny than rude.
Or if it was a clever reference to something in AI that made you sound smart but because it was a clever reference comes off more funny than rude.
I actually took it as people who were building the sharpest minds, not necessarily those who had them.
How about "Mind Makers". I think many people will have a natural resistance to joining a community named after how smart the members are. Imagine wearing a button that says "I'm the smartest".
A couple bits of feedback:
1. At least in the title of this post it is called an "Online Community" but it really feels like a job board. Is it really a community at all? I expect to feel disappointed.
2. Wait... is it a job board, or an internship matching system?
3. I got about 5 duplicate questions.
4. The timed questions with a big code block and multiple choice were stressful, in that there was some dense code to read and I couldn't decide whether to understand the code first or read the questions first.
5. It wasn't clear to me that the timer was actually a limit, and not just a suggestion (i.e., something to pace yourself to do all the questions in the time limit)
6. The SQL questions felt like very normal SQL questions. They seemed easy enough (assuming I got them right!) simply given past experience with database driven websites.
1. At least in the title of this post it is called an "Online Community" but it really feels like a job board. Is it really a community at all? I expect to feel disappointed.
2. Wait... is it a job board, or an internship matching system?
3. I got about 5 duplicate questions.
4. The timed questions with a big code block and multiple choice were stressful, in that there was some dense code to read and I couldn't decide whether to understand the code first or read the questions first.
5. It wasn't clear to me that the timer was actually a limit, and not just a suggestion (i.e., something to pace yourself to do all the questions in the time limit)
6. The SQL questions felt like very normal SQL questions. They seemed easy enough (assuming I got them right!) simply given past experience with database driven websites.
Thanks for the feedback here. Much appreciated.
1 & 2. It's.. both. From the inside it feels like Slack + job board + GitHub-like profiles
3. Investigating this issue now, thanks for flagging
4-6. Noted, we'll keep updating the UI & question bank. Knowing this about how the timer feels is especially useful
1 & 2. It's.. both. From the inside it feels like Slack + job board + GitHub-like profiles
3. Investigating this issue now, thanks for flagging
4-6. Noted, we'll keep updating the UI & question bank. Knowing this about how the timer feels is especially useful
I have been out of college and working fulltime in software for two years. I have been spending a large amount of my free time learning DL through fastai. I really want to move to a job that involves deep learning, and I would like to use your system, but I don't feel like I can responsibly switch to part time or internship work given the stability and pay of my current job. Do you have any option for people who want to go direct to fulltime?
Yes.
You can either (1) keep going with your current job and do this on the side assuming your employment contract allows it, or (2) apply to a company that wants to do full time right away without a work term.
There may be other options depending on your situation, so email me if you want to discuss further. Email address in my profile.
You can either (1) keep going with your current job and do this on the side assuming your employment contract allows it, or (2) apply to a company that wants to do full time right away without a work term.
There may be other options depending on your situation, so email me if you want to discuss further. Email address in my profile.
I had made a job board for machine learning jobs as well https://mljobslist.com/
I like the idea! Very much actually. It's a real problem - the discrepancy between actual skills and how your CV looks.
In that it reminded me of the way that Basecamp hires - which is that in the "final rounds" they actually hire the candidates to do some small project that is actually needed at Basecamp - just another way of getting at the bottom of what a person can actually do rather than how they look on paper.
In that it reminded me of the way that Basecamp hires - which is that in the "final rounds" they actually hire the candidates to do some small project that is actually needed at Basecamp - just another way of getting at the bottom of what a person can actually do rather than how they look on paper.
You're right, this approach grew out of how we hire people ourselves. Give them a chance to prove themselves on a real project.
Wasn't aware that Basecamp did this too. Thanks for sharing!
Wasn't aware that Basecamp did this too. Thanks for sharing!
I may have misread this, but would OP agree that ML/AI is not composed of just DL. Currently, the quiz is perhaps too focused.
Would agree.
Yep, quiz might still be a bit too focused. Trying to strike a balance between breadth / depth / time spent answering questions, but still some fine tuning to do
Yep, quiz might still be a bit too focused. Trying to strike a balance between breadth / depth / time spent answering questions, but still some fine tuning to do
>Submit a deep learning project. If your application isn't accepted at this stage, we'll tell you why.
Why only 'Deep Learning'? When you call yourself an 'Online Community for AI Devs', you need to consider projects from any domain in AI.
Deep Learning is just a sub-part of ML, to be precise, neural nets.
Please stop throwing keywords
Why only 'Deep Learning'? When you call yourself an 'Online Community for AI Devs', you need to consider projects from any domain in AI.
Deep Learning is just a sub-part of ML, to be precise, neural nets.
Please stop throwing keywords
Very interested in this, however I would prefer if it was more than just a jobs board. Something like github+reddit in addition to a jobs board would make this very cool (haven't tried it yet so this may already be the case and I am wrong!).
It's more like Slack + jobs board + GitHub-like profiles.
For such an exciting title, I was a bit disappointed to find another job board in here. Should I apply if I’m not looking for a job but want to participate in a professional community?
Yes. While we make money by placing people, most of the day-to-day activity involves sharing papers, open source collaboration, etc. (plus job-related things like sharing interview tips)
I'm sure I am making an incorrect inference, but I'm probably not alone. Average work term payment = $5K, average work term = 8 weeks = Below minimum wage.
Thanks for flagging! Embarrassingly I reread this stat and realized that (1) it's way out of date and the true number is higher, and (2) it refers to part-time work (20 hrs / week) but we don't actually say that anywhere.
We've never had a work term work out to less than $25 / hour, except possibly in geographies like India where cost of living in USD is very low. This is below market, but it's only for the work term before getting hired.
Will update this with the most recent stats and clarify part-time status. Thanks again for catching this!
We've never had a work term work out to less than $25 / hour, except possibly in geographies like India where cost of living in USD is very low. This is below market, but it's only for the work term before getting hired.
Will update this with the most recent stats and clarify part-time status. Thanks again for catching this!
This is great. Is it US only or available in India too?
This website doesn't work on my computer.
Thanks for flagging. Do you mind sharing your OS / browser versions?
Ubuntu / Firefox
My Firefox doesn't run JS though, so there's that.
My Firefox doesn't run JS though, so there's that.
Mine isn’t working either. I also use Ubuntu / Firefox and also the computer isn’t plugged in, so there’s that.
I recommend you plug it in then. Common mistake.
We're ML developers from non traditional backgrounds. Ed did a PhD in biological physics, and Jeremie studied quantum optics before dropping out of grad school to work on SharpestMinds. We started looking for ML jobs after school, thinking it shouldn't be too hard to get one. We found to our naive surprise that we fell short on a number of skills that are needed to do good work in industry. You just don't learn much devops in grad school.
As a result we decided to build something that would make it easier for ML devs to develop (and discover!) skills they might be missing, and then get their first jobs or internships. From the outset we also wanted to build a community around the process, since looking for your first job is usually a pretty lonely experience. Because we monetize directly through hiring, we can afford to create a space for discussion without ads or algorithmic distractions :)
Our typical users so far have been grad students who know ML material well, but don't yet have much, or any, practical experience. However, you don't need a degree at all (a few of our users are self-taught high school dropouts), and anyone who knows the material is welcome. In fact, that's one of the advantages of our system: we test directly for knowledge, so it doesn't matter how you got that knowledge or how long it took you to get it. One of our goals is that by the time we present you as a candidate, things that would otherwise be holes in your resumé don't matter so much, and we can make that case to companies that are hiring.
To qualify for joining, you do an online deep learning quiz (here: https://www.sharpestminds.com/members/apply), followed by a technical interview. If you pass both, we invite you aboard. It's possible to retake the quiz a month later if you don't pass it, and we'll send you tips on what to study in the meantime.
Once you join you get access to a job board with exclusive (i.e., not scraped) internship and full-time opportunities on it. We've created an application system where your profile gets customized to the job you're applying for, to maximize the odds that you'll get an interview. We also have lists of common interview questions, mentors that you can practice interviewing with, and periodic AMAs with ML hiring managers from companies like Skydio and Airbnb.
The hardest part about building this has been figuring out the best way to present our users to employers. Early on we found that hiring managers were passing on qualified people, because their eyes would glaze over from reading too many CVs. We ended up building application profiles that let our users display their most relevant personal projects prominently in their application. The interview rate has increased significantly as a result.
If our approach works for the ML/AI field, we'd like to build communities like this for other fields too.
We're looking forward to getting feedback and hearing ideas from HN! We know there are lots of ML devs / enthusiasts on here, and we'd also be very interested in hearing about your own experiences making the transition, or similar programs you might know about. We'd also be interested in hearing about what, in your experience, are the most important programming skills needed by someone with a good knowledge base but little practical experience to be a strong contributor at their first job or internship.