Google has been testing a replacement for third-party cookies(axios.com)
axios.com
Google has been testing a replacement for third-party cookies
https://www.axios.com/google-privacy-friendly-substitute-cookies-test-05c2c28e-77f1-4921-9a99-1ef0c009b064.html
304 comments
From the Github page:
>Browsers would need a way to form clusters that are both useful and private
>The browser uses machine learning algorithms to develop a cohort based on the sites that an individual visits.
To me it sound like just another layer of indirection with google right in the center of it. Even if this method works well enough from an advertising perspective, i expect there will soon be adverserial models to deanonymize.
To me it sound like just another layer of indirection with google right in the center of it. Even if this method works well enough from an advertising perspective, i expect there will soon be adverserial models to deanonymize.
Rather than giving the advertiser a list of my interests, it'd be nice if the advertiser gave me a list of keywords for the ads it might show next and my browser requests the ad for me. A default browser could then be configured to learn with a thumbs up / thumbs down / never show me again type of Bayesian training. Or a non-mainstream browser could request random ads.
But most people would never up/down the ad, which means the ad would be targeted more randomly, which means it wouldn't be as effective, which means the website/content owner wouldn't get as much money for displaying it.
I don't think that solution works in the current environment, unfortunately.
I don't think that solution works in the current environment, unfortunately.
If I clicked the ad, thumbs up, if not thumbs down. With appropriate weights this can work.
But.. Ad networks will never implement this, cause priority there :
1) ad network 2) advertiser 3) publisher 4) user
This bumps user from 4th place to 1st place
But.. Ad networks will never implement this, cause priority there :
1) ad network 2) advertiser 3) publisher 4) user
This bumps user from 4th place to 1st place
As of today, some ads pay per click (CPC), but most ad spots pay per 1000 views (CPM). Ads can influence behavior after they are viewed, regardless of whether the user decides to interact with the ad. I'm sure Google has put tons of effort into trying to tie ad views to purchases, both online and offline (I bet GMail and Google Pay are leveraged for this).
I am not claiming this is good or bad, but clicks are not a good enough signal of efficacy for the vast majority of ads shown on the internet.
I am not claiming this is good or bad, but clicks are not a good enough signal of efficacy for the vast majority of ads shown on the internet.
A good ad network's JS should be able to tell how long the ad was in the viewing portal, or for a video interstitial how long it played before the viewer skipped the end. That sort of signal could be useful, especially the way many sites use horizontal ad banners like horizontal rules in the pages.
Ad networks are in business based on ad performance, which is driven by the user. Even though there's quite a lot of terrible UX with online ads (for lots of reasons), the user does matter more than you think.
They would never implement it because there is no valid signal here. The vast majority of users would just thumbs down every ad they see because they believe that will result in less ads.
Go check out the messaging around Ad Choices and how poorly it ended up working.
Go check out the messaging around Ad Choices and how poorly it ended up working.
Ad Choices also intentionally obscured the access into by making it small and appear to be ad branding rather than a button.
> The vast majority of users would just thumbs down every ad they see because they believe that will result in less ads.
This... just doesn't apply to the scheme described:
>> If I clicked the ad, thumbs up, if not thumbs down. With appropriate weights this can work.
This... just doesn't apply to the scheme described:
>> If I clicked the ad, thumbs up, if not thumbs down. With appropriate weights this can work.
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If the advertiser is able to try a large amount of keywords they might still be able to infer the client's interest list based on what it requests.
That's for sure, and more fringe interests would still be more informative than more mainstream interests, too. It wouldn't be as direct and therefore provides a bit of a barrier.
There is another issue of potential/actual misuse that few are discussing.
That is, the (mis)use of experiments on browser users. "Field trials." This is enabled by the use of "updates". When users agree to updates they agree to let a corporation silently install and run new code on their computer at will, at any time.
This permits the company to create a situation where person A's browser is not quite the same program as person B's, there will be differences. Thus the corporation can run an "experiment". Both person A and person B might believe "I am using XYZ browser". The two users believe it is the same program. However there are differences. The differences can be added and removed through "automatic updates".
How do users maintain privacy in that situtation. The company behind XYZ browser can easily isolate groups of users with similar/different traits by conducting such experiments and observing user behaviour. "Cohorts". While the company may argue it is only testing software, there is an argument that it can also be testing users.
The words in parentheticals above can be defined and redfined any way you like. What is important is what the corporation is actually doing, not the label/name/terminology they assign to it.
That is, the (mis)use of experiments on browser users. "Field trials." This is enabled by the use of "updates". When users agree to updates they agree to let a corporation silently install and run new code on their computer at will, at any time.
This permits the company to create a situation where person A's browser is not quite the same program as person B's, there will be differences. Thus the corporation can run an "experiment". Both person A and person B might believe "I am using XYZ browser". The two users believe it is the same program. However there are differences. The differences can be added and removed through "automatic updates".
How do users maintain privacy in that situtation. The company behind XYZ browser can easily isolate groups of users with similar/different traits by conducting such experiments and observing user behaviour. "Cohorts". While the company may argue it is only testing software, there is an argument that it can also be testing users.
The words in parentheticals above can be defined and redfined any way you like. What is important is what the corporation is actually doing, not the label/name/terminology they assign to it.
I think what you’re saying is “despite this potential change, A/B testing by user attributes will still exist”. Is that right?
Plus, if each cohort is a “group of [merely] thousands of people [any the worldwide internet population]”, the advertiser could probably narrow your identity pretty well using passive fingerprinting of cohort(s) + IP address + Chrome version + OS + OS version and maybe HTTP headers for languages locale and time zone, though those are probably strongly correlated with the client IP address.
Combining those would definitely be a problem. https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-privacy/privacy-sandb... describes removing/limiting those fingerprinting vectors, including IP.
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself.)
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself.)
> Browsers would need a way to form clusters that are both useful and private >The browser uses machine learning algorithms to develop a cohort based on the sites that an individual visits.
How would FLoC audience targeting work in non-chrome browsers? DV360 users deliver ads on all browsers, no?
How would FLoC audience targeting work in non-chrome browsers? DV360 users deliver ads on all browsers, no?
FLoC is a proposal for a web standard, which other browsers could implement.
Today, in browsers where third party cookies were removed without replacement, companies like Google that aren't willing to fingerprint have pretty limited user targeting capabilities.
Today, in browsers where third party cookies were removed without replacement, companies like Google that aren't willing to fingerprint have pretty limited user targeting capabilities.
Does that mean advertisers using DV360 will have the option to target using known identifiers or FloC? Chrome market share in the US is 50%. FloC covers 50% of the total US market. Advertisers want all the scale. https://www.statista.com/statistics/276738/worldwide-and-us-...
Having an option to target by FLoC would make a lot of sense, yes!
(Not sure what you mean by "using known identifiers")
(Not sure what you mean by "using known identifiers")
Doesn't DV360 default to using IDs or cookies etc for targeting today? Those are user known identifiers. I am trying to wrap my head on how FloC would be used by advertisers since the world is not all FloC enabled and cookies are still around.
I think users using the search engine, email, maps etc in other browsers is hardly a "limited" amount of data for ad targeting.
Sorry, you're right, advertising on Google's own properties is mostly unaffected by browsers removing support for third-party cookies. I was thinking about AdManager and AdSense; ads shown on publisher sites.
According to the specs, the requests are made without user agent headers, leaving only IP address. Targeting ads based on IP address isn't particularly valuable to ad networks if they can't correlate it with anything other than the sandboxed cohort data.
If you give me a demographic group (age, sex, income, etc) of a thousand people, and give me the IP address I can uniquely identify the individual within that group using outside data sources like Experian.
> and give me the IP address
The Chrome proposal is that it won't: https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness
The Chrome proposal is that it won't: https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness
What insane ramblings is this? Every site will be forced to use an approved CDN? Adding forced MitM to every connection is the opposite of what we should be trying to implement.
If you want to prevent fingerprinting, you need to look at where the identifying bits are coming from. (ex: https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/) The IP address provides enough bits to uniquely identify many users, and when combined with just a few more bits, to identify almost anyone.
TOR is one solution here, which you could potentially also describe as "adding forced MitM to every connection". The proposals in https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness/blob/master/near_pa... and https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness/blob/master/willful... have different tradeoffs than TOR, with the "TOR is painfully slow" problem being a big one.
If you have better ideas, though, I would be very interested in reading them!
TOR is one solution here, which you could potentially also describe as "adding forced MitM to every connection". The proposals in https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness/blob/master/near_pa... and https://github.com/bslassey/ip-blindness/blob/master/willful... have different tradeoffs than TOR, with the "TOR is painfully slow" problem being a big one.
If you have better ideas, though, I would be very interested in reading them!
> if you have 1000 categories and some meta information (region based on IP address etc.), you will be able to track down individual users with pretty good accuracy.
Looking at the corresponding TURTLEDOVE proposal, it's sending only a handful of the known categories to any given ad network at any given time. Floc also claims that:
> The collection of cohorts will be analyzed to ensure that cohorts are of sufficient size
Looking at the corresponding TURTLEDOVE proposal, it's sending only a handful of the known categories to any given ad network at any given time. Floc also claims that:
> The collection of cohorts will be analyzed to ensure that cohorts are of sufficient size
Browser fingerprinting is already pretty good if you can run arbitrary JS on a site. Add access to a FLOC, even a FLOC with 10k people, and you're basically at a place that's worse than third-party cookies were, because at least third-party cookies could be blocked. Ad networks are already using fingerprinting and this will be seen as a blessing to them.
If browsers would stop some edge case extensions such as rendering to canvas and reading the data back, it would be much more difficult. Browser JS envs just expose way way too much entropy from the user system
You'd have to get rid of a ton of modern features and somehow backfill / update all browsers to a set of constants
- audio waveform generation - access to gpu/webgl info - have to somehow dramatically change or remove ICE/webrtc - standardize 'feature flags' e.g. somehow backfill old browser so they all show support for new JS objects - access to only a small set of fonts - somehow make rendering completely the same across browsers or remove measurement/rendering to like 5px increments or something. e.g. bounding rect of (747744.888some two character specific font or some svgcss transform etc) - testing for a ton of css extensions - supported mime types - a bunch of SVG things (i dont think this has been explored much i have a hunch there are some good targets) - a bunch of latency hacks and more...
- audio waveform generation - access to gpu/webgl info - have to somehow dramatically change or remove ICE/webrtc - standardize 'feature flags' e.g. somehow backfill old browser so they all show support for new JS objects - access to only a small set of fonts - somehow make rendering completely the same across browsers or remove measurement/rendering to like 5px increments or something. e.g. bounding rect of (747744.888some two character specific font or some svgcss transform etc) - testing for a ton of css extensions - supported mime types - a bunch of SVG things (i dont think this has been explored much i have a hunch there are some good targets) - a bunch of latency hacks and more...
Things like string measurement is indeed tricky. Audio generation or reading back raster data simply shouldn’t be possible by default. I’d be happy to enable that on a per site basis like pop ups.
Its a classic battle of intent and misdirection to the tools. The problem isn’t the tools it’s the intent.
When cookies first appeared, my first response to someone pushing them was: you want to save data for your purposes? Save it on your own damned machine, I don't want it on mine. Of course they're 'abused', that was the whole intent.
FLoC is an engineering solution to a political problem.
The problem with targeted advertising isn't the use of cookies, the problem with targeted advertising is the targeting. It doesn't matter if you're using fancy machine-learning and on-device targeting to avoid technically collecting targeting data. People don't like seeing their web history funnel into their advertising.
The problem with targeted advertising isn't the use of cookies, the problem with targeted advertising is the targeting. It doesn't matter if you're using fancy machine-learning and on-device targeting to avoid technically collecting targeting data. People don't like seeing their web history funnel into their advertising.
> FLoC is an engineering solution to a political problem.
Yes.
> the problem with targeted advertising is the targeting
Is it? The problem with advertisement is the advertisement. I don't like to see ads at all, but one thing I know for sure, I'd take targeted ads at all time over random ads.
> People don't like seeing their web history funnel into their advertising.
No. This is the problem YOU have with it. Most of the non-tech people I know have no idea what you are even talking about.
Yes.
> the problem with targeted advertising is the targeting
Is it? The problem with advertisement is the advertisement. I don't like to see ads at all, but one thing I know for sure, I'd take targeted ads at all time over random ads.
> People don't like seeing their web history funnel into their advertising.
No. This is the problem YOU have with it. Most of the non-tech people I know have no idea what you are even talking about.
I don't think the choice is between personally targeted ads and random ads though. There are middle options.
For example, if I search for "how to do a Subaru oil change" it's the perfect opportunity for the search engine to show me ads related to motor oil, Subarus, car maintenance videos, etc... If I opt in to sharing my location with the search engine they could also show me ads from local repair shops and car dealers.
Later on when I'm reading an article about dog training, I don't want to see ads about fixing my car, show me ads related to dogs. Use the context of the page for targeting.
For example, if I search for "how to do a Subaru oil change" it's the perfect opportunity for the search engine to show me ads related to motor oil, Subarus, car maintenance videos, etc... If I opt in to sharing my location with the search engine they could also show me ads from local repair shops and car dealers.
Later on when I'm reading an article about dog training, I don't want to see ads about fixing my car, show me ads related to dogs. Use the context of the page for targeting.
Sure, search does really well for contextual because there is lots of intent. But most other contextual is not like that: people aren't looking to buy something.
Your normal usage isn't dog training or subaru oil changes. It's idle nonsense like whether Kim Kardashian is angry with Courtney Cox or whatever. There's not enough to sell you that's contextual. People have an idealized vision of what they spend time on. It's nothing like this productive stuff you're talking about.
Your normal usage isn't dog training or subaru oil changes. It's idle nonsense like whether Kim Kardashian is angry with Courtney Cox or whatever. There's not enough to sell you that's contextual. People have an idealized vision of what they spend time on. It's nothing like this productive stuff you're talking about.
> There's not enough to sell you that's contextual.
Next time you are in a waiting room flip through the magazines that are sitting there. The ads are targeted to the likely readers of those magazines.
Next time you are in a waiting room flip through the magazines that are sitting there. The ads are targeted to the likely readers of those magazines.
No volume. Hard for small guy to use.
Online targeted ads are way better.
Not to be annoying, but advertising is serious money. If you think you can do good contextual advertising you will become rich very easily. Anyone will. It's hard for me to believe that no one is doing this supposedly easy and effective thing well since all the incentives are there.
Online targeted ads are way better.
Not to be annoying, but advertising is serious money. If you think you can do good contextual advertising you will become rich very easily. Anyone will. It's hard for me to believe that no one is doing this supposedly easy and effective thing well since all the incentives are there.
> Online targeted ads are way better.
Sure, but there are a lot of ethical problems with them.
Imagine starting a service that paired individual shoppers with a passive handler to follow them around a shopping mall to build dossiers including:
Sure, but there are a lot of ethical problems with them.
Imagine starting a service that paired individual shoppers with a passive handler to follow them around a shopping mall to build dossiers including:
* everything they pick up and look at
* what they eat in the food court
* the clothing styles and sizes they try on
* what their transportation to the mall was
* their race, gender, age, and apparent ethnicity
* etc...
Can we really be sure that current user-targetet advertising is better than contextual advertising? It seems to me that nobody wants to step out of the safe model of targeted advertising, since it does work well enough, and so there haven't been big enough attempts at contextual advertising to really say one approach is better.
As an anecdotal test, I went to cnx-software.com and disabled my adblocker. The site has roughly 13 ads, 3 served by Google, the rest custom. Google tried to sell me toothpaste, while the custom ads are for things I'm actually tangentially interested in, like SoMs, embedded devices and assembly services. This kind of advertising obviously has a large overhead for the site admins right now, but I could definitely imagine an AdSense-like service that would distribute ads based on processing the site's contents.
Yes we can be sure, especially because user-targeting includes contextual signals. Google and Facebook are two of the most valuable companies on the planet because they have the science of ad targeting completely figured out.
That's like arguing heading to Alaska to prospect for gold in 1899 was a great idea because the companies selling picks and shovels in Seattle were making bank.
No. Those companies were making bank selling picks and shovels because picks and shovels are great for digging for gold, regardless of whether you actually find any.
Tired analogies and ridiculous strawman arguments aside, Facebook and Google are valuable because they have a valuable product in their advertising technology. What and how you use it is an entirely different issue.
Tired analogies and ridiculous strawman arguments aside, Facebook and Google are valuable because they have a valuable product in their advertising technology. What and how you use it is an entirely different issue.
Sometimes…sometimes not. I'm sure you've seen the blogspam articles that tell you how to fix whatever problem you're having with your computer and the first step is to download their product to do a "scan".
Sure, but what about showing you ads for WhatsApp when you’re searching for Signal?
Where does contextual advertising/influencing switch from being helpful to being gaslighting?
Where does contextual advertising/influencing switch from being helpful to being gaslighting?
Aren't ads always about giving one competitor an advantage regardless of any objective benefits for the consumer? (With the exception of PSAs and the like.)
You must have no shame.
My wife buys diapers online, then ads for diapers show up on my computer.
I go shopping for underwear on one device, and then when reading a technical forum with co-workers on a different device, there's ads with people just wearing underwear.
The tracking is extremely excessive.
My wife buys diapers online, then ads for diapers show up on my computer.
I go shopping for underwear on one device, and then when reading a technical forum with co-workers on a different device, there's ads with people just wearing underwear.
The tracking is extremely excessive.
uBlock is free
That’s just the algorithm telling you to be more involved in childcare.
I assume it's already been written but I've said and I'll say again that the 1984 of the future will be set in or around some kind of algorithmic dystopia. I'm specifically thinking a corporate one although China...
Maybe I should be the change and write it myself
Maybe I should be the change and write it myself
But the problem is we are not getting targeted ads. We are getting semi-targeted ads.
If someone is paying 10 usd for conversion and you have chance to convert 1%, another one has 90% chance to convert but paying lets say 0.10 usd, even if you have 90 times better ad, ad network will show you the 1% one.
If someone is paying 10 usd for conversion and you have chance to convert 1%, another one has 90% chance to convert but paying lets say 0.10 usd, even if you have 90 times better ad, ad network will show you the 1% one.
Privacy advocates need an excuse to advocate for privacy and impose more regulations for the Common Good.
Then we end up with crap like the cookie banner - which completely ruined the internet for me.
There is not a day I don't have to close one of those and browser extensions to block them are nowhere as good as blocking ads. Not to mention, accepting all the cookies is one click, while rejecting them either require 1 minute of thinking or browsing through popups and menus.
The fact that 99% of the people don't care is over their head. If people cared they would be using duckduckgo.
Funnily enough, I use duckduckgo and I think it's a great Google replacement - but I don't care about being tracked, I just appreciate the features (especially code snippets in search)
Then we end up with crap like the cookie banner - which completely ruined the internet for me.
There is not a day I don't have to close one of those and browser extensions to block them are nowhere as good as blocking ads. Not to mention, accepting all the cookies is one click, while rejecting them either require 1 minute of thinking or browsing through popups and menus.
The fact that 99% of the people don't care is over their head. If people cared they would be using duckduckgo.
Funnily enough, I use duckduckgo and I think it's a great Google replacement - but I don't care about being tracked, I just appreciate the features (especially code snippets in search)
>I'd take targeted ads at all time over random ads.
Why?
It's not the content you want and the fundamental idea behind targeted ads is precise manipulation of people's behavior which is an extremely dangerous thing to have at scale.
Why?
It's not the content you want and the fundamental idea behind targeted ads is precise manipulation of people's behavior which is an extremely dangerous thing to have at scale.
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The problem is that most ads are for shitty products you don't need and those crowd out the ads for the few non-shitty products that makes your life better.
seems almost as if there is a relationship between the shittines of the product and the ammount of advertising </s>
In my view users should be able to browse ads by subscribing to interests and tastes. Instagram is close to this, but voluntary discovery would really make users feel more comfortable...
I agree that it sounds crazy and counter intuitive, but if everyone could post geolocalized ads, it would feel better.
I agree that it sounds crazy and counter intuitive, but if everyone could post geolocalized ads, it would feel better.
What this means is not that google has found a privacy-friendly alternative.
It means that Google has found out that among 1000 people, your browsing criteria with HTTP headers alone is unique enough to identify you with 95% accuracy, which is actually even more frightening.
It means that Google has found out that among 1000 people, your browsing criteria with HTTP headers alone is unique enough to identify you with 95% accuracy, which is actually even more frightening.
This has been known for years though. There have been a few sites out there over the years which would tell you how identify-able you are based entirely on what headers your browser sends.
Maybe Google was already using these methods but did make it public until cookies got a bad enough reputation.
Interesting: could you point me to one of those sites?
Can Google tell me who these people are so we can start hanging out? These dudes sound sick
If you want to protect yourself against that, use FireFox with most of the recommendations from here: https://www.privacytools.io/browsers/#about_config
This seems to work pretty well for me (Google got really confused, thinks I am on Windows now - I am not).
Just don't turn off media.gmp-widevinecdm if you want to keep watching DRM-protected content (e.g. Netflix)!
This seems to work pretty well for me (Google got really confused, thinks I am on Windows now - I am not).
Just don't turn off media.gmp-widevinecdm if you want to keep watching DRM-protected content (e.g. Netflix)!
This is wrong advice. Firefox's unique handling of asset loading, including how ETag and Accept headers are processed (e.g. loading a png as a <script src> and as an <img src>) make Firefox always uniquely identifiable.
Are you saying that you can identify Firefox among a group of different browsers, or me among a group of different users?
If it is the latter, please file a bug against Firefox to get it fixed.
If it is the latter, please file a bug against Firefox to get it fixed.
Would an extension that sets random headers be a solution to blurring identity?
> Would an extension that sets random headers be a solution to blurring identity?
Nope, because the order a Browser Engine loads assets is different in Chrome vs. Firefox vs. Edgium, too. Combine that with Firefox's messed up Accept header and you'll have them TOR Browser users, for sure. "@supports" in CSS is additionally a very unblockable way to track users, as it varies uniquely per-Browser-version as features of CSS get implemented and/or get fixed.
Usually traffic analysis for a client (with a specific ETag header) is enough to uniquely find out whether it's the exact same machine, hence that's what the header is made for.
The approach behind my browser tries to actively modify the contents of said malicious HTTP headers and to rewrite the HTML, CSS and other assets in order to force-cache everything and by laying off as much traffic as possible to surrounding peers. [1] But it's far from production-ready.
There's also a frightening amount of CSS features that can be used to track users very easily. @supports, @media, and a combination of <link media=""> and "srcset" attributes in a quick prototype was enough to track every client with around 98.3% accuracy, and I decided to not release the fingerprint.css project due to concerns how it might be abused in the wild.
Especially with unicode behaviour inside the CSS files themselves. CSS ident-tokens [2] are specified as "non-ASCII" so they can be emojis, too. And those have varying support across all Browser versions due to the ICU library being embedded in them (and being absolutely unique in every single subminor release I've tested so far).
[1] https://github.com/tholian-network/stealth
[2] https://www.w3.org/TR/css-syntax-3/#tokenization
Nope, because the order a Browser Engine loads assets is different in Chrome vs. Firefox vs. Edgium, too. Combine that with Firefox's messed up Accept header and you'll have them TOR Browser users, for sure. "@supports" in CSS is additionally a very unblockable way to track users, as it varies uniquely per-Browser-version as features of CSS get implemented and/or get fixed.
Usually traffic analysis for a client (with a specific ETag header) is enough to uniquely find out whether it's the exact same machine, hence that's what the header is made for.
The approach behind my browser tries to actively modify the contents of said malicious HTTP headers and to rewrite the HTML, CSS and other assets in order to force-cache everything and by laying off as much traffic as possible to surrounding peers. [1] But it's far from production-ready.
There's also a frightening amount of CSS features that can be used to track users very easily. @supports, @media, and a combination of <link media=""> and "srcset" attributes in a quick prototype was enough to track every client with around 98.3% accuracy, and I decided to not release the fingerprint.css project due to concerns how it might be abused in the wild.
Especially with unicode behaviour inside the CSS files themselves. CSS ident-tokens [2] are specified as "non-ASCII" so they can be emojis, too. And those have varying support across all Browser versions due to the ICU library being embedded in them (and being absolutely unique in every single subminor release I've tested so far).
[1] https://github.com/tholian-network/stealth
[2] https://www.w3.org/TR/css-syntax-3/#tokenization
I am not a web expert but these all sound like things that can uniquely identify a particular browser version only? That doesn't seem like such a big issue - if all that can be determined is that I'm using the latest stable Chrome/Firefox, that doesn't sound so bad. Does it matter that the TOR Browser is identifiable if everyone is using the same version? I thought their goal is to make every user of their browser look the same? Where does the 98.3% accuracy come from?
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That is a great question and no, mixing in noise makes it harder but doesn't make it impossible.
Mixing in noise feels like a solution because it is hard for a layperson to see how a signal can be extracted, proof by "difficulty to me". If you mix in noise that changes averages then you are removing signal. If you add in random noise, each individual measurement deviates, but the limit of the average will be the same value pre-mixing.
Mixing in noise feels like a solution because it is hard for a layperson to see how a signal can be extracted, proof by "difficulty to me". If you mix in noise that changes averages then you are removing signal. If you add in random noise, each individual measurement deviates, but the limit of the average will be the same value pre-mixing.
BTW this is the same trap that folks fall into when they design random number generators off the cuff.
Random would be even more unique. The solution (to this particular problem) is for a majority of users to set the exact same headers, regardless of the reality
Some browser vendors have started to remove the specific version from the User Agent string, for instance. Tor browser window is an actual square specifically to make that value (browser width & height) the same across all its users and improve their privacy (by making that value useless in finding uniqueness)
Hope that makes sense, sorry if I mis-explained some things
Some browser vendors have started to remove the specific version from the User Agent string, for instance. Tor browser window is an actual square specifically to make that value (browser width & height) the same across all its users and improve their privacy (by making that value useless in finding uniqueness)
Hope that makes sense, sorry if I mis-explained some things
Yes, random values would be more unique, but if those values are changed on each request, wouldn't that make me harder to track?
For example suppose my user agent string (and canvas fingerprint, accept header, etc) was different on every request. Would this be enough to stop ad networks from correlating each of my very-unique requests, and prevent them from tracking me across different pages?
For example suppose my user agent string (and canvas fingerprint, accept header, etc) was different on every request. Would this be enough to stop ad networks from correlating each of my very-unique requests, and prevent them from tracking me across different pages?
It might just be some easy to ignore noise.
Worst thing is, unless this is used by a very large chunk of the population, it would even be another tool to identify you.
Worst thing is, unless this is used by a very large chunk of the population, it would even be another tool to identify you.
> it would even be another tool to identify you
How exactly? It seems like a difficult problem for a website to me.
How exactly? It seems like a difficult problem for a website to me.
They can use "headers include random things" as a filter like they do with other headers presence/absence/value already. I don't think defining "random things" would be too hard for them.
1. Noise that looks like valid signal is the most difficult kind to remove.
2. They would have to track the noise over page requests to know that it was noise. The saving of and correlation of the saved state would be a pain.
2. They would have to track the noise over page requests to know that it was noise. The saving of and correlation of the saved state would be a pain.
This proposal coupled with phasing out third-party cookies inconveniences competitors, while allowing Google to continue gobbling up user data without disruption, because their tracking capabilities are way past needing any cookies, or this new cohort API.
I think that's a good observation. That they don't need cookies or this proposal. So, anything that performs less well than cookies hurts them less than their competitors.
The article is about a non-tracking capability to collect less user data.
Inconveniencing trackers is good for privacy, not bad.
Anyway, mods, here's a much better article that has more than one line of vague content: https://github.com/WICG/floc
Inconveniencing trackers is good for privacy, not bad.
Anyway, mods, here's a much better article that has more than one line of vague content: https://github.com/WICG/floc
Google only cares about privacy, when it disproportionately hurts the competition. Meanwhile they are using their leverage to infect web standards with a tracking proposal, and they market it as a privacy win.
Features used exclusively for tracking have no place among web standards, cohort-based or otherwise.
Features used exclusively for tracking have no place among web standards, cohort-based or otherwise.
This looks to me as a way for Google to drastically increase their reach and track even more data about their "users".
They want the browser to "discover" the users interests automatically during browsing. For a page to be excluded from this, the page author would have to set a new policy header.
And then your browser reports these interest to whatever tracker (for example Google) asks for the information.
Suddently Google can learn about what you're browsing even if GA is blocked.
They want the browser to "discover" the users interests automatically during browsing. For a page to be excluded from this, the page author would have to set a new policy header.
And then your browser reports these interest to whatever tracker (for example Google) asks for the information.
Suddently Google can learn about what you're browsing even if GA is blocked.
honestly the thing that bugs me the most about the article is cookies == tracking.
Sure, cookies are used for tracking, but they are also used for authentication, which is something that nearly every webapp needs to do.
I just think that, due to articles like this, cookies end up being viewed as nothing but bad, when they are an important tool for the web when used properly.
More on-topic of the article:
this doesn't look like it really changes anything, to me. Like, so instead of cookies being used to track your data, they use a _browser extension_?? that is potentially even _more_ invasive. Sure, if it does what they say it will do, it kind of obfuscates your personal data. Really, what people want is just....less ads. Less targetted ads. This doesn't achieve that.
Sure, cookies are used for tracking, but they are also used for authentication, which is something that nearly every webapp needs to do.
I just think that, due to articles like this, cookies end up being viewed as nothing but bad, when they are an important tool for the web when used properly.
More on-topic of the article:
this doesn't look like it really changes anything, to me. Like, so instead of cookies being used to track your data, they use a _browser extension_?? that is potentially even _more_ invasive. Sure, if it does what they say it will do, it kind of obfuscates your personal data. Really, what people want is just....less ads. Less targetted ads. This doesn't achieve that.
For basically everyone cookies == tracking. That is pretty much their only user-visible purpose. I think the best way forward would be to heavily restrict the persistent data that websites (that aren't installed as apps) can store in the browser to basically just an authentication token that is only sent by the browser and not accessible to JS.
It's kinda silly that we can't manage our website logins via the browser without clearing all the cookies for a site.
It's kinda silly that we can't manage our website logins via the browser without clearing all the cookies for a site.
> Sure, cookies are used for tracking, but they are also used for authentication, which is something that nearly every webapp needs to do.
What if we could move authentication or more specifically the state held in the client for authentication to some other mechanism? Could we pitch cookies? Could we make this switch without making it somehow possible for advertisers to switch to the new mechanism?
What if we could move authentication or more specifically the state held in the client for authentication to some other mechanism? Could we pitch cookies? Could we make this switch without making it somehow possible for advertisers to switch to the new mechanism?
It could be done, but first-party cookies aren't really the issue. Most browsers have the option to disable third-party cookies, but many ad-supported sites throw a fit if you browse them that way. I think the goal is to introduce some alternative, then switch blocking third-party cookies to a default. Finally cookies could be a first-party only solution.
IMO one step of tracking is to authenticate the tracked, so whatever the authentication method is, it'll be used as tracking method.
Already exists. Custom HTTP Header with a JWT token for example. Also in the body of a post request can be the auth data. In the URL would also be possible but is a security risk due to e.g. browser history.
You have to attach that "JWT token" (heh) with e.g JS which makes it vulnerable to XSS, doesn't it?
With xss you can also inject the code. So no cookie extraction needed imho.
advertisment still works, because the site can just execute a js and make a post request to the advertisment company.
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Most session providers use a session cookie and store all the required values on the server. Moving that to the client will require a lot of additional javascript. And will also make sure that browsing without javascript is definitely impossible. Not to think about the amount of additional security holes that would open.
There's no reason to if you specifically block third-party cookies, which is what is being suggested (and what Axios muddies considerably by using "cookie" and "third-party cookie" interchangably).
Unless you're going to throw out local storage and custom request headers, getting rid of cookies isn't really going to do anything except make the same thing less secure (since you won't be able to benefit from the HttpOnly flag).
Unless you're going to throw out local storage and custom request headers, getting rid of cookies isn't really going to do anything except make the same thing less secure (since you won't be able to benefit from the HttpOnly flag).
Authentication, notably OAuth, from all of the large major providers comes from a domain other than the site content domain. Blocking third party cookies indiscriminately will render you unable to log into facebook, google, twitter, or any microsoft service, or anything that uses those tokens.
No it doesn't.
The user clicks 'log in with google', their browser gets forwarded to whatever.google.com, the (now first party) cookie gets checked, then the user gets forwarded back to your site with the access token as a parameter in the GET request.
No third party cookies needed.
The user clicks 'log in with google', their browser gets forwarded to whatever.google.com, the (now first party) cookie gets checked, then the user gets forwarded back to your site with the access token as a parameter in the GET request.
No third party cookies needed.
> Blocking third party cookies indiscriminately will render you unable to log into facebook, google, twitter, or any microsoft service, or anything that uses those tokens.
I block third party cookies indiscriminately, and I never had issues logging into Facebook, Google, Twitter, or any Microsoft service except for Microsoft Teams. This includes logging into third-party services using the Google login.
I block third party cookies indiscriminately, and I never had issues logging into Facebook, Google, Twitter, or any Microsoft service except for Microsoft Teams. This includes logging into third-party services using the Google login.
3rd-party cookies aren't actually intrinsic to OIDC auth flows. They might be used by some implementations under some flows, but they're not core to the spec.
Typically the user agent will redirect to a Google/etc login page where it'll have access to first-party cookies. Then will redirect back to the site which requested authentication, passing state in the query params. It's only when you get into using stuff like Okta as a delegated authentication service do you run into trouble with 3rd party cookies.
Edit: As an example, I just logged into Stackoverflow using Google as the authenticator, with umatrix blocking 3rd-party cookies. Worked without a hitch.
Typically the user agent will redirect to a Google/etc login page where it'll have access to first-party cookies. Then will redirect back to the site which requested authentication, passing state in the query params. It's only when you get into using stuff like Okta as a delegated authentication service do you run into trouble with 3rd party cookies.
Edit: As an example, I just logged into Stackoverflow using Google as the authenticator, with umatrix blocking 3rd-party cookies. Worked without a hitch.
The extent to which my browser configuration breaks the websites on your list is my yardstick for success.
what if we remove the JS, and just had the web browser echo a defined string back to the server? if this token uniquely identified the session, we could safely store the data server-side, with minimal leakage to other sites and no need for code execution at all!
I can't tell if you're joking or not but this clearly already exists via HTTP headers.
Yes, including the echo, this is literally cookies.
Install client SSL certificates for the websites that needs would be a start, or cookies die within 60 seconds unless a password has been entered on the site.
Tracking and authentication aren't quite the same, but they aren't independent either. If you are logged in all the time (like many of us are for Hacker News), then your actions can be tracked pretty well.
That's kind of the point of being logged in, to let the website know who you are.
That's kind of the point of being logged in, to let the website know who you are.
Just the same stairs but now with only one giant step and Google is the one with giant legs.
Also there's no "privacy-friendly" tracking technology, it's an oxymoron an slick marketing/corporate strategy ( that works ).
Also there's no "privacy-friendly" tracking technology, it's an oxymoron an slick marketing/corporate strategy ( that works ).
Read this explainer: https://github.com/WICG/floc
This is what EFF says about this scheme:
"A flock name would essentially be a behavioral credit score: a tattoo on your digital forehead that gives a succinct summary of who you are, what you like, where you go, what you buy, and with whom you associate."
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/dont-play-googles-priv...
BTW, Chrome users have been part of this system for nearly a year now.
"A flock name would essentially be a behavioral credit score: a tattoo on your digital forehead that gives a succinct summary of who you are, what you like, where you go, what you buy, and with whom you associate."
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/dont-play-googles-priv...
BTW, Chrome users have been part of this system for nearly a year now.
EFF tends to... sensationalize things more than I'm comfortable with.
I wonder why that is cause I feel like they didn’t used to be as hyperbolic or dramatic
I suspect part of that might be a reaction to us (as in the population in general) getting used to privacy violations. It takes a bit more drama to get our attention in a world where we are all willing to voluntarily carry a personal tracking device 24/7...
I’ve always chalked it up to fundraising strategy, but I admit my opinion is reactive, I haven’t done any research.
EFF has been taken over by privacy zealots. They used to be more focused on what their name says: freedom. That is, fighting censorship and regulation of the internet.
And the privacy folks love their hyperbole
And the privacy folks love their hyperbole
It’s hardly a new idea to count privacy as part of freedom.
Yeah, but privacy used to be a part of the mission, with the understanding that privacy was a good thing but not the only thing. It seems like over the years the focus has shifted to privacy being the ultimate goal, and every other aspect of the mission happens in the name of privacy. And there's no acceptance of the idea that some well-informed people are willing to make a decision to sacrifice some privacy in exchange for convenience or cost, anybody who considers sacrificing some of their own privacy is treated as a moron who needs to be protected from themselves.
They’ve definitely zeroed in on it. I think it is understandable, though, from their position—privacy seems most acutely at-risk, at least stateside, and the vast majority of people affected aren’t among those well-informed.
> what their name says: freedom.
Not necessarily disagreeing with your actual point, but neither of the F's in EFF stands for "freedom".
Not necessarily disagreeing with your actual point, but neither of the F's in EFF stands for "freedom".
EFF tends to be far more timid than what I am comfortable with.
The EFF needs to get to the point that politicians seriously consider fighting them. Its the only real way to effect change in the US. As we have seen multiple times, the other folks keep introducing bills over and over again. That needs to be a hard stop and the only way to get there is fear because logic just doesn't work for tech.
And the only way to get politicians to seriously consider fighting for you is:
- give them money
- offer them a political advantage over their opponents
- build up enough grassroots support among their constituents that not supporting your positions would be effectively career suicide
The best organizations utilize all three.
- give them money
- offer them a political advantage over their opponents
- build up enough grassroots support among their constituents that not supporting your positions would be effectively career suicide
The best organizations utilize all three.
I completely agree with you, but...
> because logic just doesn't work for tech
is more than a little ironic to me. I suppose it's like people saying you can't 'out-logic' a judge through a technicality, or that the law does not mean they are Perfect Laws of Logic; they're designed to be interpreted by judges.
I admire the EFF though, and I support what they advocate for. I was going to say I'd like them to be more pragmatic, but I suppose their hardline opinions are most of the reason they exist as an advocacy organization.
> because logic just doesn't work for tech
is more than a little ironic to me. I suppose it's like people saying you can't 'out-logic' a judge through a technicality, or that the law does not mean they are Perfect Laws of Logic; they're designed to be interpreted by judges.
I admire the EFF though, and I support what they advocate for. I was going to say I'd like them to be more pragmatic, but I suppose their hardline opinions are most of the reason they exist as an advocacy organization.
Logic is fine for technical folks and a lot of general public, it doesn't work very well in the political arena where waving the bloody shirt is the norm. Logic is a poor weapon in an emotional debate and doesn't work worth a damn.
True. I just found that quote ironic is all.
To your actual point, though, I think you've totally nailed it. I'm not sure if emotion and politics are permanently inextricable, but from my limited, unfortunate experience, it seems as though any kind of logical argument doesn't or can't (!) sway anyone (myself, of course, included!)
To your actual point, though, I think you've totally nailed it. I'm not sure if emotion and politics are permanently inextricable, but from my limited, unfortunate experience, it seems as though any kind of logical argument doesn't or can't (!) sway anyone (myself, of course, included!)
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So you give the EFF what kind of TameAntelope score? 0.3 ?
I love the EFF! I just don't like this one specific aspect of the articles I see written from them.
It's hardly a big deal, I almost regret commenting about it.
It's hardly a big deal, I almost regret commenting about it.
I donate money to the EFF regularly, but their click-baity hysteria annoys me too.
I give you a 0.9 sitkack score (quite good actually) for the honest response. :)
Is a sitkack score a thing or am I missing out on a joke?
Google openly choose the collective noun for sheep as the name of a technology for labelling humans; I don't think the EFF's response should be the primary source of discomfort here.
This made me laugh, and you're not wrong exactly, but I will note that "flock" is also used for birds, and birds are frequently used as a metaphor for freedom just as much as sheep are used as a metaphor for mindless group-following behaviour.
Either way, I wouldn't read too much into it.
Either way, I wouldn't read too much into it.
These proposals have generally been named after bird things:
https://github.com/michaelkleber/pigin https://github.com/WICG/turtledove https://github.com/WICG/sparrow https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/master/TERN.md https://github.com/prebid/identity-gatekeeper/blob/master/pr...
I believe "FLoC" comes from the phrase "birds of a feather flock together", which is a decent metaphor for how the proposal works
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
https://github.com/michaelkleber/pigin https://github.com/WICG/turtledove https://github.com/WICG/sparrow https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/master/TERN.md https://github.com/prebid/identity-gatekeeper/blob/master/pr...
I believe "FLoC" comes from the phrase "birds of a feather flock together", which is a decent metaphor for how the proposal works
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
You should really investigate your biases if the first thought that comes to your mind is that Google chose flock because it thinks customers are sheep.
My first thought was birds, so perhaps I might turn that around and recommend a reciprocal investigation. Because only on further reflection did I see the darker side, and realise the likes of Google do not get to make the “oh-we-didn’t-realise-that” argument.
The nice thing about this new Google technology is that it makes it easier to fleece a flock of users, while making the users think they have privacy.
Of course Google does not think its customers are sheep. Google thinks its users are sheep. Chrome users are not the customers.
They're not quite as aggressive as Greenpeace, but they have the same mainstream credibility problem.
This sounds like the YouTube-algorithm applied to the advertising web.
One false click and you're damned for weeks.
One false click and you're damned for weeks.
You can use YouTube logged out. I have an RSS reader for all my favourite channels.
But you can't use Youtube premium logged out.
Although the RSS feed is very basic. No description or thumbnails. Also premiers show up before the are available and other inconveniences.
You can use the web logged out but you can’t escape Google trying to convince me I’m from India.
I must not be the only one who watches YouTube in private browsing mode, so one wrong video won’t totally ruin your recommends
Just click Not Interested a couple times and the faulty recommendations go away, right?
> BTW, Chrome users have been part of this system for nearly a year now.
The OP says "The API exists as a browser extension within Google Chrome," which made me think it was a separate browser extension that I would not have if I had not chosen to install.
Are you saying it's built into Chrome instead? Cite? And if so is there any way to disable it?
The OP says "The API exists as a browser extension within Google Chrome," which made me think it was a separate browser extension that I would not have if I had not chosen to install.
Are you saying it's built into Chrome instead? Cite? And if so is there any way to disable it?
While on the topic of third-party cookies - is there any legitimate use for those at all (outside of semi-covert user tracking)?
I understand how first-party cookies are useful - you take a stateless protocol (HTTP) and make it aware of "sessions". And those in turn are a nifty block to build upon - login/authentication, "shopping cart", whatever...
But having one website to be able to save state that is only accessible to a chosen different site - what's the use for that?
I understand how first-party cookies are useful - you take a stateless protocol (HTTP) and make it aware of "sessions". And those in turn are a nifty block to build upon - login/authentication, "shopping cart", whatever...
But having one website to be able to save state that is only accessible to a chosen different site - what's the use for that?
Things like single-sign on or social networking where you toss some JavaScript from api.example.com on your page and it does things like automatically log you in or display messages you might have.
I see this is as a tragedy of the commons problem: it's kind of nice to have, say, a counter of unread Disqus messages but the relative value of that compared to the use by tracking companies is hard to ignore.
I see this is as a tragedy of the commons problem: it's kind of nice to have, say, a counter of unread Disqus messages but the relative value of that compared to the use by tracking companies is hard to ignore.
Oauth and SAML use callbacks, not cookies.
That's if you're implementing SSO on your own, which most folks don't do. Most SaaS using SSO in their apps will use Auth0 or Okta. Dropping third-party cookies has implications for these integrations:
https://support.okta.com/help/s/article/FAQ-How-Blocking-Thi...
https://support.okta.com/help/s/article/FAQ-How-Blocking-Thi...
I didn't specify those protocols for a reason. While that's technically true at the API level, I was referring to things like the “Sign-On with <service>” widgets – you can make a completely static version of that which doesn't use cookies but there is a nice UI improvement if the button can load and say things like “Login as @tootie” or “@tootie, you have 5 DMs” anywhere you see it.
Instead, I think we're going to recognize that this is too broad to be secured and either come up with ways to scope it down (e.g. requiring the third-party to have some sort of opt-in prompt) or that entire market category replaced with browser-controlled alternatives, which isn't great for companies other than Apple, Google, and maybe Microsoft but does have the appeal of not trusting an entity which the user isn't already trusting.
Instead, I think we're going to recognize that this is too broad to be secured and either come up with ways to scope it down (e.g. requiring the third-party to have some sort of opt-in prompt) or that entire market category replaced with browser-controlled alternatives, which isn't great for companies other than Apple, Google, and maybe Microsoft but does have the appeal of not trusting an entity which the user isn't already trusting.
It's not clear to me why we need third-party cookies to be a technology that browsers support. Just axe them. No replacement.
Yeah. I don't understand why it's taking so much time and effort and debate when all it would really take is literally a single line of code to change the default value of the setting that blocks or allows third-party cookies. I'd bet most users won't even notice the difference.
The original RFC that introduced cookies specifically said that third-party cookies aren't permitted. Then Netscape broke it. Then everyone else did. It's about time browsers become spec-compliant.
The original RFC that introduced cookies specifically said that third-party cookies aren't permitted. Then Netscape broke it. Then everyone else did. It's about time browsers become spec-compliant.
Because Google makes billions on selling ads on other sites through their DV360 / Google AdX products. Those ads need third-party cookies for targeting, otherwise the price drops by a factor 5.
Google also happens to make the browser with by far the largest market share. So they're not going to axe third-party cookies as long as it drops their revenue 5x.
Google also happens to make the browser with by far the largest market share. So they're not going to axe third-party cookies as long as it drops their revenue 5x.
This just sounds like Google is building an API for browser fingerprinting. Advertisers send Google data, and get back a fingerprint of a user.
This is only "privacy friendly" because Google limits the accuracy of the fingerprint provided to advertisers by bucketing users into cohort groups. These groups are supposed to be large enough to prevent advertisers to identify individual users.
Google would still retain the ability to uniquely identify individual users.
This is only "privacy friendly" because Google limits the accuracy of the fingerprint provided to advertisers by bucketing users into cohort groups. These groups are supposed to be large enough to prevent advertisers to identify individual users.
Google would still retain the ability to uniquely identify individual users.
Chrome’s “Privacy Sandbox” mentioned in the article will limit JavaScript’s access to APIs that expose fingerprinting entropy. Thus publishers will feel pressure to use Google’s advertising services and Chrome’s FLoC because other ad networks won’t monetize as well since they can’t use third-party cookies or fingerprinting in Chrome.
I doubt it. Safari already blocks 3rd party cookies, so this situation already exists. Every ad network will implement FLoC, it's an open standard - they'd be crazy not to.
Great point. This would give Google's advertising services an unfair advantage over its competitors.
This really only seems beneficial to Google, not to other advertisers, or to end-users.
This really only seems beneficial to Google, not to other advertisers, or to end-users.
> Google would still retain the ability to uniquely identify individual users.
In the proposal, the non-clustered data does not leave the user's device: https://github.com/WICG/floc
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
In the proposal, the non-clustered data does not leave the user's device: https://github.com/WICG/floc
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
This requires browser integration. What concerns me is this doesn't talk about how Google plans to track non-Chrome users. Because you know Google isn't going to just stop tracking the other 40% or so of web users.
The other big thing that concerns me about this is how it still allows for some of the worst abuses. They are still going to possess entirely too much information about people and will continue to sell advertising that takes advantages of that information.
The other big thing that concerns me about this is how it still allows for some of the worst abuses. They are still going to possess entirely too much information about people and will continue to sell advertising that takes advantages of that information.
I think independent groups would be much better advocates for privacy technology than Google which has a huge conflict of interest
In 1997, I had a meeting with Netscape executives about a similar technology I had created out of concern for the privacy implications of cookies. I called it LAD (local advertising decision). The server would send a script down to the browser saying “if the user meets X criteria, show this ad, else show Y” and so on. It could use browser history, installed software, and other factors for targeting.
At the time I was laughed out of the room. Turns out I was just 24 years too early.
At the time I was laughed out of the room. Turns out I was just 24 years too early.
In addition to the whole fox guarding the henhouse issue, this doesn't address the primary harms of user tracking: That it's just bad for society that people are targeted and advertised to on this level, as it fosters filter bubbles and encourages unhealthy behaviors.
Tracking a group of 1,000 people to cater bad political ads isn't meaningfully better than targeting 1,000 individuals with bad political ads.
Targeted advertising needs to be treated like unfair gambling practices. Banned across the board, and the industry that remains needs to be heavily regulated and forced to be completely transparent about the process.
Tracking a group of 1,000 people to cater bad political ads isn't meaningfully better than targeting 1,000 individuals with bad political ads.
Targeted advertising needs to be treated like unfair gambling practices. Banned across the board, and the industry that remains needs to be heavily regulated and forced to be completely transparent about the process.
> Targeted advertising needs to be [...] banned across the board
You say that like an absolute that is enforceable. Advertising has been targeted since advertising exists. Advertisers have been choosing radio or billboard-slots for well over 100 years (well, radio for 100, print and billboards probably for centuries), using data or educated guesses to reach a target demographic. As advertisers now choose on which sites (or not) their ads should appear, in order to reach their target demographic. Of course, they can choose by a few more criteria now. How ubiquitous should a specific ad be, so that it would not be "targeted" advertisement?
I think we need legislation, but it's not black and white. There's a huge grey line that spans all of advertising history.
Edit: just to be clear, choosing whether to advertise in a newspaper (and which) on radio (and which channel), or on facebook, is already targeting for a desired audience.
You say that like an absolute that is enforceable. Advertising has been targeted since advertising exists. Advertisers have been choosing radio or billboard-slots for well over 100 years (well, radio for 100, print and billboards probably for centuries), using data or educated guesses to reach a target demographic. As advertisers now choose on which sites (or not) their ads should appear, in order to reach their target demographic. Of course, they can choose by a few more criteria now. How ubiquitous should a specific ad be, so that it would not be "targeted" advertisement?
I think we need legislation, but it's not black and white. There's a huge grey line that spans all of advertising history.
Edit: just to be clear, choosing whether to advertise in a newspaper (and which) on radio (and which channel), or on facebook, is already targeting for a desired audience.
I suppose I should clarify: User targeting should be banned across the board. Content targeting should not: Feel free to put ads next to particular news articles, sites, or TV shows.
It's no so cut and dry though. If you've ever watched golf on TV you will notice that the most prominent advertising is for insurance companies (User) not golf equipment (Content). They are advertising to the cohort of users that watch golf on tv (rich business people).
It's all user targeting.
It's all user targeting.
That's still content targeting: They're basing the ads they place next to content based on the expected audience for that content. Everyone watching that content sees that ad, no problem.
We get into issues when we're dealing with ads being placed based on who is viewing the content.
We get into issues when we're dealing with ads being placed based on who is viewing the content.
> You say that like an absolute that is enforceable.
It is possible to make it technically impossible. Not allowing third-party cookies is one way. This alone would only allow targeting by the coarse location derived from the IP and by the user agent string.
It is possible to make it technically impossible. Not allowing third-party cookies is one way. This alone would only allow targeting by the coarse location derived from the IP and by the user agent string.
I have no issues with targeted advertising as long as the ad's topic is deduced from the context of the page I'm visiting.
Cookies aren't required for that.
If I buy a MTB magazine, I do expect to see some ads from this or that bike-producing company (even though I'd prefer them not to be there).
Cookies aren't required for that.
If I buy a MTB magazine, I do expect to see some ads from this or that bike-producing company (even though I'd prefer them not to be there).
Besides usual privacy concerns:
Dear advertisers, I do not want to be herded in a bubble (designed by you or anyone else), I actually like to know the world around me.
(And this is even more valid for the things I'm not that familiar with anyway. How would I learn about those segments of reality, if not from your adverisment that you would prefer to rather not show me?)
Dear advertisers, I do not want to be herded in a bubble (designed by you or anyone else), I actually like to know the world around me.
(And this is even more valid for the things I'm not that familiar with anyway. How would I learn about those segments of reality, if not from your adverisment that you would prefer to rather not show me?)
Let's dispense with this fiction, once and for all, that "targeted" or "customized" advertisements were ever for the users' benefit. They are, and always have been, for the benefit of Google and the advertisers. Google wants you to believe that advertisements are an inevitable, unavoidable feature of the web, despite the fact that they didn't want to be in this business when they started the company. They even go so far as to tug at your heart strings to and say how "hard" they work to make sure their product is "safe, unobtrusive, and as relevant as possible," implying that capturing your attention to part you from your money effectively is the ideal outcome. [0]
This is gaslighting. Interest-based advertising on the web is not an immutable feature, a naturally occurring phenomenon. It's a scourge invented to further surveillance capitalism and it must be abolished.
All this is to say, I'd change your letter to say:
Dear Advertisers:
Stop tracking me or I'll block you entirely at every turn. Your business model does not concern me. My attention is not for sale. Change, or be regulated out of business.
[0]https://policies.google.com/technologies/ads?hl=en-US
This is gaslighting. Interest-based advertising on the web is not an immutable feature, a naturally occurring phenomenon. It's a scourge invented to further surveillance capitalism and it must be abolished.
All this is to say, I'd change your letter to say:
Dear Advertisers:
Stop tracking me or I'll block you entirely at every turn. Your business model does not concern me. My attention is not for sale. Change, or be regulated out of business.
[0]https://policies.google.com/technologies/ads?hl=en-US
Whoah, folks like you use free ad supported services but just don't like the ad part and don't want to pay either.
Interest based advertising is simply optimizing ads for conversion rate. Slow down with all the philosophy.
Interest based advertising is simply optimizing ads for conversion rate. Slow down with all the philosophy.
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I'm sorry but I fail to see the point of this. you can choose to disable cookies, will you be able to disable this new thing? if so, what's the big deal about it, other than the same principle with a different name, probably to avoid some EU legislation.
Advertisers and trackers have been doing the same thing this thing is supposed to do for years. And where will they implement it? the only way would be at the application level, so every browser now also has to implement internal tracking services to aggregate all the data in their flocs, to then come back to the user to spice up their request? come on...
I'll keep supporting efforts to make the Internet a more privacy focused place. Advertisers have been buying TV ads for decades and I my TV hasn't asked me what I want to share with it, yet.
Advertisers and trackers have been doing the same thing this thing is supposed to do for years. And where will they implement it? the only way would be at the application level, so every browser now also has to implement internal tracking services to aggregate all the data in their flocs, to then come back to the user to spice up their request? come on...
I'll keep supporting efforts to make the Internet a more privacy focused place. Advertisers have been buying TV ads for decades and I my TV hasn't asked me what I want to share with it, yet.
This is related to my main question about this. What if browsers just... don't implement this?
What makes Google think that Apple or Mozilla are going to add this to their browsers?
What makes Google think that Apple or Mozilla are going to add this to their browsers?
"Serial killer may have found a life-friendly substitute to knives."
No but seriously, does being in a group of "thousands" of people really preserve privacy particularly well? It seems quite likely that with groups that small, membership itself could be considered privacy-compromising, e.g., a group of people that all have some medical condition.
At the most fundamental level, I feel like if you know which advertisments are targetted to me, and those advertisements are well-targeted, then my privacy has been invaded.
It seems to me there is a fundamental conflict between good targetted ads and protection of privacy.
No but seriously, does being in a group of "thousands" of people really preserve privacy particularly well? It seems quite likely that with groups that small, membership itself could be considered privacy-compromising, e.g., a group of people that all have some medical condition.
At the most fundamental level, I feel like if you know which advertisments are targetted to me, and those advertisements are well-targeted, then my privacy has been invaded.
It seems to me there is a fundamental conflict between good targetted ads and protection of privacy.
> It seems to me there is a fundamental conflict between good targeted ads and protection of privacy.
True, but it is too much to ask Google to throw "the baby out with the bath water", as it were. For all their faults, I am encouraged that Android and Chrome, if no other product team at Google, is pioneering Federated Learning [0], Differential Privacy [1], and now are pushing ahead with Privacy Sandbox [2]. I wholeheartedly agree it simply isn't enough, but it is substantially better than what's in-use right now.
Like everyone else though, I am worried for the same reason I dislike AMP (accelerated mobile pages) despite it bringing noticeably better user-experience for many: Google has this nasty tendency to make things seem more "open", "benevolent", and "private" than they really are.
[0] https://federated.withgoogle.com/#learn
[1] https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/rappor
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20767891
True, but it is too much to ask Google to throw "the baby out with the bath water", as it were. For all their faults, I am encouraged that Android and Chrome, if no other product team at Google, is pioneering Federated Learning [0], Differential Privacy [1], and now are pushing ahead with Privacy Sandbox [2]. I wholeheartedly agree it simply isn't enough, but it is substantially better than what's in-use right now.
Like everyone else though, I am worried for the same reason I dislike AMP (accelerated mobile pages) despite it bringing noticeably better user-experience for many: Google has this nasty tendency to make things seem more "open", "benevolent", and "private" than they really are.
[0] https://federated.withgoogle.com/#learn
[1] https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/rappor
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20767891
> True, but it is too much to ask Google to throw "the baby out with the bath water", as it were.
No it isn't, the 'baby' of targetted adverts is a net negative for society. We'd be net better off if most googlers just retired and spent their days digging holes and filling them in again. It is not "too much to ask" that people stop messing up society even if it's making them billions.
No it isn't, the 'baby' of targetted adverts is a net negative for society. We'd be net better off if most googlers just retired and spent their days digging holes and filling them in again. It is not "too much to ask" that people stop messing up society even if it's making them billions.
You mean, you would be better off.
The 3 billion people who can not afford to pay 200$ per month for various software will not be better off.
Google isn't sharing your individual data but they are still collecting it and storing it. This feels like a non-improvement to me.
> The company said Monday that tests of FLoC to reach audiences show that advertisers can expect to see at least 95% of the conversions per dollar spent on ads when compared to cookie-based advertising. FLoC uses machine learning algorithms to analyze user data and then create a group of thousands of people based off of the sites that an individual visits. The data gathered locally from the browser is never shared. Instead, the data from the much wider cohort of thousands of people is shared, and that is then used to target ads.
If I was an advertiser I would have serious doubts about this, especially after the fact that ad spend on popular platforms have had no impact on many firm's bottom line.
I guess this is a response to all the pushbacks and dwindling PPC revenues from an increasingly wary advertisers who have quite possibly been duped into transferring their cash to Google & others over the decade.
If I was an advertiser I would have serious doubts about this, especially after the fact that ad spend on popular platforms have had no impact on many firm's bottom line.
I guess this is a response to all the pushbacks and dwindling PPC revenues from an increasingly wary advertisers who have quite possibly been duped into transferring their cash to Google & others over the decade.
What? No. It's a response to potential bans on same site cookie access. The thing you quote says that this is worse than conventional targeted ads.
This doesn't seem to be at the same technology layer as "cookies", as this seems to be a Chrome-internal (local, which is good, but is this a guarantee?) API that uses your search history and other things to generate a 'cohort' which is an ID of some sort that you can send over as a part of requests to the advertiser URL's.
https://github.com/WICG/floc
https://github.com/WICG/floc
Is this not how brave ads work, with a local profile that fetches ads you profiles says you should be interested in?
I say this every time, but individual targeting should be illegal. The ad industry thrived for thousands of years without ads that follow you everywhere.
Invasive targeting is only 20 years old, a blink in the history of advertising. If it was gone tomorrow these companies would just go back to targeting based on the ad placement rather than unique person viewing it. What we have now is the dystopian sci fi movie where ads shift as different people look at them.
If you don't think it's dystopian, consider that every ad your coworkers see when you're sharing your screen is based on the best targeting data advertisers can find. Your screen is disclosing your interests, wealth, medical history, kinks, etc to anyone looking at it. It's fucked up.
Invasive targeting is only 20 years old, a blink in the history of advertising. If it was gone tomorrow these companies would just go back to targeting based on the ad placement rather than unique person viewing it. What we have now is the dystopian sci fi movie where ads shift as different people look at them.
If you don't think it's dystopian, consider that every ad your coworkers see when you're sharing your screen is based on the best targeting data advertisers can find. Your screen is disclosing your interests, wealth, medical history, kinks, etc to anyone looking at it. It's fucked up.
FYI this was already quietly shoved into Chrome 80
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I don't believe Google because it could have eliminated all the ways to track people without their consent long ago if it wanted. Almost everybody uses Chrome/Blink and agrees to everything they decide. They can define and deprecate almost whatever browser APIs and behaviors they want. But it doesn't because they are the single biggest actor making use of these ways. E.g. it is known Google Captcha doesn't simply tell them you are a human, it tells them which particular human you are.
Can you explain, or provide reference points for the captcha knowing "which particular human" i am?
It's utterly untrue. reCaptcha gives you a score of "humanness", and you can decide to allow or deny an action. There's no way to get an ID from it.
There's no way to get an ID from it for a client. But there apparently is for Google.
They did not find a replacement to cookies. Cookies have become too toxic and are harming them and so they found a way to not store anything on the device and yet be able to target users. This means it will be impossible to stop them from profiling and targeting users as users don’t control anything.
They are using privacy preserving techniques, and even if we assume they are doing it well, it just means that we will never get rid of the profiling and paying to get privacy will not happen with google services
They are using privacy preserving techniques, and even if we assume they are doing it well, it just means that we will never get rid of the profiling and paying to get privacy will not happen with google services
If you read the 4th bullet point in the article you'd see that the data is actually stored on the device. Users will go from seeing only cookies, which are opaque ids, to their full behavioral profiles - basically, the opposite of what you just said.
Honestly, we don't need a _replacement_ for third-party cookies. They're not really necessary for anything.
There's few websites that break without them (e.g.: logging into Atlassian), and that's mostly due to bad design (given that every other login flow out there works fine).
Their main use has been to track people, hence, we don't really need them at all.
There's few websites that break without them (e.g.: logging into Atlassian), and that's mostly due to bad design (given that every other login flow out there works fine).
Their main use has been to track people, hence, we don't really need them at all.
> The Sandbox isn’t about your privacy. It’s about Google’s bottom line. At the end of the day, Google is an advertising company that happens to make a browser.
It's worse than that. Google is an advertising company that makes a browser (63.38% of browsers globally) and mobile operating system (72.48% of phones globally) to vertically integrate, controlling your privacy choices. They're also trying their hand at PC's (ChromeOS, 1.72% globally). They invent technology across the stack, providing software for free or paid, and open sourcing some to commoditise the technology and to starve competition. I'd be interested to see how many people use Gmail.
https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
It's worse than that. Google is an advertising company that makes a browser (63.38% of browsers globally) and mobile operating system (72.48% of phones globally) to vertically integrate, controlling your privacy choices. They're also trying their hand at PC's (ChromeOS, 1.72% globally). They invent technology across the stack, providing software for free or paid, and open sourcing some to commoditise the technology and to starve competition. I'd be interested to see how many people use Gmail.
https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
Axios really needs to bring on some literate technical advisory.
"Cookies are considered third-party data, or user data that's collected indirectly from users via browsers or websites."
This statement seriously requires qualification. This is exactly what contributes to unreasonable regulation and confused users.
"Cookies are considered third-party data, or user data that's collected indirectly from users via browsers or websites."
This statement seriously requires qualification. This is exactly what contributes to unreasonable regulation and confused users.
I don't understand how retargeting would work with this?
Attributions is a big pain too.
Without those two things this simply makes google more valuable while killing everyone else who doesn't have their own browser which tracks everything from your login, analytics on basically every website, and more.
Attributions is a big pain too.
Without those two things this simply makes google more valuable while killing everyone else who doesn't have their own browser which tracks everything from your login, analytics on basically every website, and more.
Part of this is about the middle men. The NY Times cut off ad exchanges in EU and found it didn't kill their ad business [1]. One thing it did do was cut out the middle companies doing the brokering. Google has made A LOT of money just being a middle company. Like a car dealership.
The proposed system deals with large groups and machine learning. It requires a browser ad on or changes to the browser. This is not approachable for startups, small businesses, or those who are independent. It's targeted at Google and further helps solidify their position.
As people want to cut Google off from constantly monitoring them they are looking for ways to work around being cut off to keep the data flowing. Branding and marketing their work to make people want it.
[1] https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut...
The proposed system deals with large groups and machine learning. It requires a browser ad on or changes to the browser. This is not approachable for startups, small businesses, or those who are independent. It's targeted at Google and further helps solidify their position.
As people want to cut Google off from constantly monitoring them they are looking for ways to work around being cut off to keep the data flowing. Branding and marketing their work to make people want it.
[1] https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut...
>Part of this is about the middle men. The NY Times cut off ad exchanges in EU and found it didn't kill their ad business [1]. One thing it did do was cut out the middle companies doing the brokering. Google has made A LOT of money just being a middle company. Like a car dealership.
So NYT rediscovers publishing? Once upon a time, publishers had teams of sales people who had relationships with companies needing to advertise and coordinated theirs ads with the publishing schedule. Publishers then gave that advantage away to sell ads for a fraction of their current price on a per view basis and have been crying ever since.
So NYT rediscovers publishing? Once upon a time, publishers had teams of sales people who had relationships with companies needing to advertise and coordinated theirs ads with the publishing schedule. Publishers then gave that advantage away to sell ads for a fraction of their current price on a per view basis and have been crying ever since.
Publishers have been seeing their ad revenue decrease. This is why they complain.
Companies like Google make billions on ads. A overwhelming majority of Googles income is from ads. It isn't just that Google served new markets or that publishers outsourced the work.
Ad systems use a bidding system. Google controls both sides of the bidding system. The system is setup in a way where Google has benefited more than others.
It reminds me of record labels and producers. They make the lions share of the money on record sales for most albums and music. The artists typically get a small share. Some artists have walk away with a medium income will selling millions of albums and having the label/producers making millions.
The lower income to publishers has caused them to do more shock and awe type articles that aren't good for us. They pay more inexperienced people less so there is less mentoring. Overall it means the quality of the published stuff has gone downhill.
Companies like Google make billions on ads. A overwhelming majority of Googles income is from ads. It isn't just that Google served new markets or that publishers outsourced the work.
Ad systems use a bidding system. Google controls both sides of the bidding system. The system is setup in a way where Google has benefited more than others.
It reminds me of record labels and producers. They make the lions share of the money on record sales for most albums and music. The artists typically get a small share. Some artists have walk away with a medium income will selling millions of albums and having the label/producers making millions.
The lower income to publishers has caused them to do more shock and awe type articles that aren't good for us. They pay more inexperienced people less so there is less mentoring. Overall it means the quality of the published stuff has gone downhill.
I was in the printing industry in the 00’s and watched firsthand how publishers shot themselves in the foot. It’s funny how substack is doing what they should have done previously.
When you are the NY times, you can hire an ad sales team, and charge advertisers enough for non targeted ads to make that profitable. It turns out this is a little harder for "Joe Bloggs anime reviews"
> and would've been paralyzed without the ability to use some sort of anatomized data to target people with ads.
anatomized? Is that a typo for anonymized? Or does this mean something?
anatomized? Is that a typo for anonymized? Or does this mean something?
Recent and related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25813601
This mainly looks like a push to remove even more user control over tracking. The spec says that the browser can return 'random' data, but I suspect that Chrome won't let you do that, or at least not for long.
Instead of the user disabling third-party cookies, every single page author would have to set a new HTTP header to have their page excluded from the machine learning.
It also looks like a massive GDPR pitfall. Say you track conversions to a campaign, and track what "cohorts" a user entered your sales pipeline through. The moment you connect this data to the customer, it's personal data IMHO. If you operate in Europe, the user should be able to retrieve/delete the data, and request it changed if they say it's wrong.
Instead of the user disabling third-party cookies, every single page author would have to set a new HTTP header to have their page excluded from the machine learning.
It also looks like a massive GDPR pitfall. Say you track conversions to a campaign, and track what "cohorts" a user entered your sales pipeline through. The moment you connect this data to the customer, it's personal data IMHO. If you operate in Europe, the user should be able to retrieve/delete the data, and request it changed if they say it's wrong.
Reading this article, which is targeted at advertisers, feels like how I imagine a cow would feel looking in the window of a butcher shop.
Extensions will spring up that will pollute the local storage to help in anonymity, increase the noise and reduce the real value.
Isn't that what Brave browser is doing?
Federated means no "theoretical" access to the data. It doesn't mean no "practical" access.
What if the user opts out at browser-level?
It looks Google business will be very dependent on chrome product.
"Hi early 2000s computer user, let's make a deal:
I get full access to everything you do online, and get to do anything I want with the information. Perhaps I'll use it to maybe target ads slightly better in some cases, and put myself into every value chain you're involved with so I can get a cut at every step.
Oh, and I'll do my best to move all computing online, so that 'everything you do online' equals 'everything you do with a computer'.
In exchange you'll get a web browser that is at times more performant than the others. Hell, I'll even throw in a free email account (where I can gather all the best bits of info)!
It's a pretty good deal, don't you think?"
I get full access to everything you do online, and get to do anything I want with the information. Perhaps I'll use it to maybe target ads slightly better in some cases, and put myself into every value chain you're involved with so I can get a cut at every step.
Oh, and I'll do my best to move all computing online, so that 'everything you do online' equals 'everything you do with a computer'.
In exchange you'll get a web browser that is at times more performant than the others. Hell, I'll even throw in a free email account (where I can gather all the best bits of info)!
It's a pretty good deal, don't you think?"
"if it means I don't have to pay $20/year for more than 2mb of hotmail storage, i'm all for it!"
https://www.pcworld.com/article/116657/article.html#drr-cont... (250mb free increase was suspected to be a response to Gmail)
https://www.pcworld.com/article/116657/article.html#drr-cont... (250mb free increase was suspected to be a response to Gmail)
Additionally cookies are not bad, 3rd party cookies are not even necessarily bad. Tracking people is bad.
While we are discussing this, just wish HN readers to shed more light on a practice which I diligently follow.
Whenever I visit any website, courtesy the GDPR laws, we are asked to request the terms and cookies. I make it a point to disable all cookies (barring the strictly necessary ones), partners and also the "Legitimate Interest" section, where I click "Object all", and then click "Save and exit".
However, on many websites I don't see any option to "reject" or "object" to cookies, partners, vendors and especially legitimate interest. Particularly concerned about Legitimate Interest since the number of vendors there is humongous.A good example of a site where we cannot choose would be the BBC[1]. We get an option only to read their terms and conditions but no option to reject and object.
1) Can anyone please guide how to reject to cookies on such sites where they don't have a reject option present?
Also, in my iOS, in Safari settings, I have chosen "Block all cookies" to yes.
2) How far will blocking all cookies safeguard me from unscrupulous cookies? If my blocking all cookies is enabled in safari settings and suppose I visit some malicious site and accept their cookies, would the owners of malicious site be able to do anything sinister or adversarial to my privacy and integrity? Will the be able to breach my security?
Ref. → [1]https://www.bbc.co.uk/
Whenever I visit any website, courtesy the GDPR laws, we are asked to request the terms and cookies. I make it a point to disable all cookies (barring the strictly necessary ones), partners and also the "Legitimate Interest" section, where I click "Object all", and then click "Save and exit".
However, on many websites I don't see any option to "reject" or "object" to cookies, partners, vendors and especially legitimate interest. Particularly concerned about Legitimate Interest since the number of vendors there is humongous.A good example of a site where we cannot choose would be the BBC[1]. We get an option only to read their terms and conditions but no option to reject and object.
1) Can anyone please guide how to reject to cookies on such sites where they don't have a reject option present?
Also, in my iOS, in Safari settings, I have chosen "Block all cookies" to yes.
2) How far will blocking all cookies safeguard me from unscrupulous cookies? If my blocking all cookies is enabled in safari settings and suppose I visit some malicious site and accept their cookies, would the owners of malicious site be able to do anything sinister or adversarial to my privacy and integrity? Will the be able to breach my security?
Ref. → [1]https://www.bbc.co.uk/
Anything short of uBlockOrigin/uMatrix with JS disabled won't work. Not only you need to block cookies at the uBO level, you need to block JS because it can write cookie-like IDs to persistent storage such as indexeddb.
Thanks for your suggestion.
But wouldn’t blocking JS make all websites dysfunctional for me?
Also, how do I get rid of persistent storage like indexDB as you have highlighted?
Does clearing cache and cookies from browser help?
But wouldn’t blocking JS make all websites dysfunctional for me?
Also, how do I get rid of persistent storage like indexDB as you have highlighted?
Does clearing cache and cookies from browser help?
Well, you'd selectively enable JS if you really need that site.
Clearing the cache and storage should be enough.
Clearing the cache and storage should be enough.
Thanks for this.
I know how to clear cache but may I ask what do you mean by storage?
I don’t know how to delete that.
I know how to clear cache but may I ask what do you mean by storage?
I don’t know how to delete that.
There's a "clear cache and storage" button in the devtools, but the user interface may not have it. Regardless, JS is necessary to access storage, so no JS - no storage.
Already most of our CPU cycles are eaten up by ad-frameworks in our browser.
Now Google want to offload Machine Learning to our browser. That will be bad for battery life, electricity bills, and the environment.
On the other hand I use free software. So I can make a version of their extension that just claims that I am obsessed with Ironing. That will also make it easier for the Ad-blocker to do its filtering.
Now Google want to offload Machine Learning to our browser. That will be bad for battery life, electricity bills, and the environment.
On the other hand I use free software. So I can make a version of their extension that just claims that I am obsessed with Ironing. That will also make it easier for the Ad-blocker to do its filtering.
Good news for google shareholders: looks like google is returning back to its roots creating nightmarish ad tech tools to further their goal of turning the world into a digital panopticon. Bonus points for simultaneously crowding out competitors and further solidifying their ubiquity and monopoly.
Cookies work without any third party business involved. The proposed solution won't work the same way. It will work only when using a third party business servers.
It is not a replacement. It is a proposal how to replace a free, standardized and open world wide web feature with a commercial service.
It is not a replacement. It is a proposal how to replace a free, standardized and open world wide web feature with a commercial service.
So if you just use Firefox or Safari instead this method wont work on you?
But this technology only works if you use Chrome as your browser correct?
It's possible to imagine an alternative system to FLoC that was actually privacy respecting.
Say we had an Open, standardized, human-readable list of categories/groups that people could opt into (rather than a bunch of on-the-fly groupings determined by an AI). We could give users the ability to choose 0-X of those categories that they want to associate with. We could even let them choose on a site-by-site basis, so they could decide how ads would be targeted (or if they would be targeted at all) on parts of the web.
We could build UIs that helped them with that. We could have easy ways to opt into or out of categories. We could allow them to turn on category suggestions, so with their permission if a user visited a site about a specific kind of product, we could show a one-click option in the browser to add themselves to an associated category and see ads for similar products.
We could allow them to group sites together and say things like, "I want news sites that I visit to know that I'm looking to buy a specific brand of car, but I don't want any of the car dealership sites that I'm looking at to know what brand I want."
For users that don't want that level of detail, we could still have a 'smart' system that consumers could run (clientside) that looked at the websites they visited, or even more personal data, and auto-placed them in categories without them needing to think about the system at all. They'd just need to select an option to let the browser handle all of their categories for them.
But importantly, all of this would be based on consent. And instead of offering users a single choice to opt out, they would have an entire spectrum of choices that allowed them to decide how they presented themselves online, what specific data they shared, and who they shared it with.
If users genuinely benefit from targeted ads, then they'll opt into the system and pick categories that are relevant to them and send them to sites. If they think Google's data collection is accurate, then they'll turn on the smart system in Chrome that locally categorizes them. But at any point, for any site, they could choose to turn off the data entirely, or to add themselves to a specific category, or to remove themselves from a specific category. In human-understandable terms, they would know exactly what data they were transmitting to websites.
----
For all that Google says they're working on data privacy, very few of their proposals, even their good proposals, approach privacy from an angle of giving users more control over their identities. Google is still stuck in a world where they think of data collection as something that has to happen without the users knowledge, without the user's ability to easily inspect what's going on, without the user's ability to form multiple identities or even to just opt-into the system at all.
What I want is control over my data. And what Google (and companies like them) keep on saying is, "we'll be somewhat more responsible with your data, but only if we keep control of it."
And this represents a general attitude that comes up in so many modern tech products, from Youtube, to social feeds, to modern UI design, to device security. These companies are like a controlling, overbearing parent. People want agency over their ads/recommendations/feeds/etc, but the companies think the problem is that they're just not good enough at controlling all of that for us. It's a way of thinking about UX/product/process that's divorced from user consent and agency as an ideals that we should strive towards.
Say we had an Open, standardized, human-readable list of categories/groups that people could opt into (rather than a bunch of on-the-fly groupings determined by an AI). We could give users the ability to choose 0-X of those categories that they want to associate with. We could even let them choose on a site-by-site basis, so they could decide how ads would be targeted (or if they would be targeted at all) on parts of the web.
We could build UIs that helped them with that. We could have easy ways to opt into or out of categories. We could allow them to turn on category suggestions, so with their permission if a user visited a site about a specific kind of product, we could show a one-click option in the browser to add themselves to an associated category and see ads for similar products.
We could allow them to group sites together and say things like, "I want news sites that I visit to know that I'm looking to buy a specific brand of car, but I don't want any of the car dealership sites that I'm looking at to know what brand I want."
For users that don't want that level of detail, we could still have a 'smart' system that consumers could run (clientside) that looked at the websites they visited, or even more personal data, and auto-placed them in categories without them needing to think about the system at all. They'd just need to select an option to let the browser handle all of their categories for them.
But importantly, all of this would be based on consent. And instead of offering users a single choice to opt out, they would have an entire spectrum of choices that allowed them to decide how they presented themselves online, what specific data they shared, and who they shared it with.
If users genuinely benefit from targeted ads, then they'll opt into the system and pick categories that are relevant to them and send them to sites. If they think Google's data collection is accurate, then they'll turn on the smart system in Chrome that locally categorizes them. But at any point, for any site, they could choose to turn off the data entirely, or to add themselves to a specific category, or to remove themselves from a specific category. In human-understandable terms, they would know exactly what data they were transmitting to websites.
----
For all that Google says they're working on data privacy, very few of their proposals, even their good proposals, approach privacy from an angle of giving users more control over their identities. Google is still stuck in a world where they think of data collection as something that has to happen without the users knowledge, without the user's ability to easily inspect what's going on, without the user's ability to form multiple identities or even to just opt-into the system at all.
What I want is control over my data. And what Google (and companies like them) keep on saying is, "we'll be somewhat more responsible with your data, but only if we keep control of it."
And this represents a general attitude that comes up in so many modern tech products, from Youtube, to social feeds, to modern UI design, to device security. These companies are like a controlling, overbearing parent. People want agency over their ads/recommendations/feeds/etc, but the companies think the problem is that they're just not good enough at controlling all of that for us. It's a way of thinking about UX/product/process that's divorced from user consent and agency as an ideals that we should strive towards.
> We could allow them to group sites together and say things like, "I want news sites that I visit to know that I'm looking to buy a specific brand of car, but I don't want any of the car dealership sites that I'm looking at to know what brand I want."
But this this isn't how ads work. Most ads are served by an ad network, such as doubleclick, which does realtime bidding on the ad space. The exchange of cookies is between you and the ad network, not you and the publisher hosting the ad or you and the advertiser who placed the ad.
Otherwise you make some great points and it seems that FLoC could well provide such tools for the user, because their profile is now rich and client-side instead of being stored on some tracker server and keyed by an opaque cookie id.
But this this isn't how ads work. Most ads are served by an ad network, such as doubleclick, which does realtime bidding on the ad space. The exchange of cookies is between you and the ad network, not you and the publisher hosting the ad or you and the advertiser who placed the ad.
Otherwise you make some great points and it seems that FLoC could well provide such tools for the user, because their profile is now rich and client-side instead of being stored on some tracker server and keyed by an opaque cookie id.
> The exchange of cookies is between you and the ad network, not you and the publisher hosting the ad or you and the advertiser who placed the ad.
But my browser could be smart enough to only exchange those cookies (or whatever data format we want to use) based on the current origin I'm visiting. There's no rule that requires me to use the same doubleclick session on CNN and Reddit.
If I visit a website that's classified as a news site, at that point doubleclick wants to know information about me so it can hold an auction to show me targeted ads. At that point, the browser could send doubleclick any information -- it could be based on the current origin, it could be based on the time of day, it could be based on what profile/identity I have manually switched on/off.
The point I'm getting at is the model of "you have one persistent identity that doubleclick can hook into anywhere" is already broken. Part of choosing how we present ourselves online includes the freedom to have multiple identities and to choose when/how those identities are revealed.
But my browser could be smart enough to only exchange those cookies (or whatever data format we want to use) based on the current origin I'm visiting. There's no rule that requires me to use the same doubleclick session on CNN and Reddit.
If I visit a website that's classified as a news site, at that point doubleclick wants to know information about me so it can hold an auction to show me targeted ads. At that point, the browser could send doubleclick any information -- it could be based on the current origin, it could be based on the time of day, it could be based on what profile/identity I have manually switched on/off.
The point I'm getting at is the model of "you have one persistent identity that doubleclick can hook into anywhere" is already broken. Part of choosing how we present ourselves online includes the freedom to have multiple identities and to choose when/how those identities are revealed.
We wont solve this issue until we stop viewind advertising and increased consumption as healthy...
We live in the timeline where "Alphabet to replace cookies" is a legit headline.
What is the public understanding/perception of cookies? The past couple of years since the implementation of the GDPR has probably been the biggest and weirdest public education campaign (done entirely through brief pseudo-consent popups).
What is the public understanding/perception of cookies? The past couple of years since the implementation of the GDPR has probably been the biggest and weirdest public education campaign (done entirely through brief pseudo-consent popups).
I'm happy that HN has accepted a change in the article's title, which appears as "Google says it may have found a privacy-friendly substitute to cookies." This terminology -- "found" -- has been used by Google and others to imply that their capture of behavioral "exhaust" is somehow a natural phenomenon, rather than a conscious, deliberate, profit-driven choice. Google didn't "find" a substitute. They are developing it because they are getting pushback from users and companies who object to their tracking methods and they're desperate to find something that convinces users they've Really Changed This Time.
Don't fall for it. Break up with Google. They are abusive.
Don't fall for it. Break up with Google. They are abusive.
I'm very attentive to wording but I think you're reading too much into this one.
In programming and in business you talking about "finding" a solution to a problem all the time. In this case, the problem is how to improve privacy without advertising revenue dropping off a cliff. And it's not like the solution is staring you in the face -- it takes iteration and testing for it to be "found".
So I don't think Google is being disingenuous here. Nothing is being implied as a somehow natural phenomenon. Business in general is about "finding" satisfactory solutions to problems day in and day out. "Find" and "develop" are essentially synonymous and interchangeable here.
In programming and in business you talking about "finding" a solution to a problem all the time. In this case, the problem is how to improve privacy without advertising revenue dropping off a cliff. And it's not like the solution is staring you in the face -- it takes iteration and testing for it to be "found".
So I don't think Google is being disingenuous here. Nothing is being implied as a somehow natural phenomenon. Business in general is about "finding" satisfactory solutions to problems day in and day out. "Find" and "develop" are essentially synonymous and interchangeable here.
> ...without advertising revenue dropping off a cliff.
Ah, the 'ole "right to my business model" attitude. Not blaming you in particular for this, but it's pervasive. Needless to say, I thoroughly and utterly disagree than any business has a right to any business model, particularly one that robs me of my time, attention, and computational resources.
Ah, the 'ole "right to my business model" attitude. Not blaming you in particular for this, but it's pervasive. Needless to say, I thoroughly and utterly disagree than any business has a right to any business model, particularly one that robs me of my time, attention, and computational resources.
Haha! Yes to both. Replies!
I'm not comfortable assuming the best intentions from a $1.2T company whose business model relies on tracking my behavior. They burned that bridge after the war-driving "Wi-Spy" scandal, which went on from 2007-2010. [0].
It's clear that Google sees a threat to their business model, and they'll use any PR-friendly language they can to convince people that they're addressing the user concerns. Just like they did in 2010, when they ascribed their willful malfeasance to a "rogue engineer" who they then put in charge of StreetView.
If I'm "reading too much into it" it's because we collectively haven't been reading enough into it for the past 15 or so years, and in that time our Overton window has shifted too far.
[0]https://www.theregister.com/2019/07/23/google_wispy_payout/
It's clear that Google sees a threat to their business model, and they'll use any PR-friendly language they can to convince people that they're addressing the user concerns. Just like they did in 2010, when they ascribed their willful malfeasance to a "rogue engineer" who they then put in charge of StreetView.
If I'm "reading too much into it" it's because we collectively haven't been reading enough into it for the past 15 or so years, and in that time our Overton window has shifted too far.
[0]https://www.theregister.com/2019/07/23/google_wispy_payout/
this. I'm fine with GP's use of "finding" a solution. Yes, they found one; finding solutions is a central process in software.
But I'm absolutely not fine with the wording. When confronted with the phrase "Google says it may have found a privacy-friendly substitute to cookies", I'd wager most people would think "this improves my privacy in a general way".
It doesn't. What it actually means is: Google will make it more difficult for others to track you, but Google will remain committed to tracking everything about you that it possibly can. Except silently, and without your ability to opt out using ad blockers etc.
Net result: even less control over your privacy, and Google further entrenches its monopoly to boot.
That's not an improvement in privacy.
But I'm absolutely not fine with the wording. When confronted with the phrase "Google says it may have found a privacy-friendly substitute to cookies", I'd wager most people would think "this improves my privacy in a general way".
It doesn't. What it actually means is: Google will make it more difficult for others to track you, but Google will remain committed to tracking everything about you that it possibly can. Except silently, and without your ability to opt out using ad blockers etc.
Net result: even less control over your privacy, and Google further entrenches its monopoly to boot.
That's not an improvement in privacy.
> That's not an improvement in privacy.
Okay, that's obviously not true from your own comment, you also say:
> Google will make it more difficult for others to track you
So if Google can still track me at the same level, but others can no longer track me, that IS an improvement in privacy. Not from Google, but from everyone else.
I get and agree with your point about how it's an advantage for Google because they can make their tracking harder to avoid and lock others out, but I find it hard to sell "This is not an improvement in privacy" as being unequivocally true.
Okay, that's obviously not true from your own comment, you also say:
> Google will make it more difficult for others to track you
So if Google can still track me at the same level, but others can no longer track me, that IS an improvement in privacy. Not from Google, but from everyone else.
I get and agree with your point about how it's an advantage for Google because they can make their tracking harder to avoid and lock others out, but I find it hard to sell "This is not an improvement in privacy" as being unequivocally true.
Google will track you more since adblockers will do nothing against this new practice.
So, again, this is not an improvement for users privacy.
So, again, this is not an improvement for users privacy.
This does not address my point at all, which is that if it locks out OTHER parties that currently abuse third party cookies from tracking, there's a substantial improvement for user privacy from those parties.
Not to mention that while adblockers currently do not do anything against this practice, this does not mean that adblockers can never come up with anything to block this tracking.
Not to mention that while adblockers currently do not do anything against this practice, this does not mean that adblockers can never come up with anything to block this tracking.
OP also says
> but Google will remain committed to tracking everything about you that it possibly can. Except silently, and without your ability to opt out using ad blockers etc.
Also others may no longer track you at the moment but they definitely will do in the future.
So... Google breached a bit deeper in our privacy and paved the way for others to follow them. I can't help seeing them so evil.
Also others may no longer track you at the moment but they definitely will do in the future.
So... Google breached a bit deeper in our privacy and paved the way for others to follow them. I can't help seeing them so evil.
> So if Google can still track me at the same level, but others can no longer track me, that IS an improvement in privacy.
This is only true if Google does not sell the gathered information to others. If they sell the data, the net privacy gain is nil.
This is only true if Google does not sell the gathered information to others. If they sell the data, the net privacy gain is nil.
Google doesn't sell your personal information to anyone. They sell ads that are targeted based on your personal information. Selling your information directly would entirely negate their market advantage in advertising, it would be suicide for Google. Facebook has been known to do this, Google has not.
Not saying you are one such person, or that you are doing so intentionally, but this argument is a clever sleight of hand employed by surveillance capitalists and their apologists to deflect attention away from the real issue: that thousands of well-paid, highly intelligent engineers devote 40+ hours a week to coming up with ways to influence your behavior.
“Selling personal data” — as if your particular affinity for left handed baseball gloves were of special interest to large corporations — is a red herring. Let’s stop perpetuating it.
“Selling personal data” — as if your particular affinity for left handed baseball gloves were of special interest to large corporations — is a red herring. Let’s stop perpetuating it.
But there are companies that sell personal data. Google is not one of them. The phone companies sell your location. There are regular articles about companies buying up chrome extensions to harvest/sell browsing data. Etc
You are reading way too much into that incident.
At the time, "Engineer put in feature not asked for."
Later, "Upon full examination, engineer put description of feature in piece of paper shoved in front of busy manager, and told selected co-workers what he had done." (None of whom, when the shit hit the fan, should be expected to stick their necks out.)
Neither version suggests that the feature was something reflective of corporate policy, or would have had support from higher ups if they knew about it. Also, said engineer turns out to be a very good programmer. Which explains the company's decision to try to keep him and correct his behavior rather than immediately firing him.
At the time, "Engineer put in feature not asked for."
Later, "Upon full examination, engineer put description of feature in piece of paper shoved in front of busy manager, and told selected co-workers what he had done." (None of whom, when the shit hit the fan, should be expected to stick their necks out.)
Neither version suggests that the feature was something reflective of corporate policy, or would have had support from higher ups if they knew about it. Also, said engineer turns out to be a very good programmer. Which explains the company's decision to try to keep him and correct his behavior rather than immediately firing him.
That Google’s management is so unaware of their data collection software that they allowed engineers to drive around spying on people for three years does not inspire trust. Incompetence or malice is besides the point. Google did not take responsibility for the error, and in fact stonewalled Congress for more than a year when it was investigated.
What do you expect them to do? Randomly sample the internal data formats? Or verify that the official outputs look right?
Google specializes in automation at scale, not lovingly handcrafted data.
Google specializes in automation at scale, not lovingly handcrafted data.
I don't have any expectations for how they will address their transgressions. They don't have a right to my personal data, don't have a right to track me, don't have a right to sell my attention to modify my behavior. People who are the target of their data collection -- which includes users and innocent bystanders -- are victims, and we don't expect victims to come up with performance improvement plans for their abusers.
You want rules that run counter to every trend in technology. And believe that it can be done with government fiat.
I emphatically believe the opposite. Data collection, storage, and manipulation is ever becoming easier. The only actual choice is between a society where we're lied to about surveillance, or one where surveillance is generally available. https://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Society-Technology-Betwee... laid out the case for this over 20 years ago.
Here are the realistic choices.
On the one hand, we can create any set of rules we want on paper. We can get governments to officially support it. We can be frustrated as those same governments do it ineffectively. And then watch as the rules meant to curtail monopolies get caught by regulatory capture and are manipulated to support the very organizations that they are theoretically supposed to punish. (Seriously, do you expect any secret service to not take advantage of what is possible? Have you heard of Snowden?)
Or we can choose the path recommended in https://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Society-Technology-Betwee..., accept that surveillance is real. And put the tools in the hands of the masses. This is already happening. See https://asherkaye.medium.com/do-you-know-this-man-7836e54abc... for a story of how a random person in a random photo was tracked down by an internet stranger using reverse image search with facial recognition. And the tools are only getting better and harder to stop over time.
I personally hate both futures. But I hate the first one more. And I see people like you as unwitting pawns who are creating the first of those two futures. And your unwillingness to understand how things actually work, combined with your certainty that you've got the moral high ground, makes you an easily manipulated true believer.
Enjoy your certainty that you're in the right here. I guarantee that you'll have a lot to be upset about in the way that our world is shaping up.
I emphatically believe the opposite. Data collection, storage, and manipulation is ever becoming easier. The only actual choice is between a society where we're lied to about surveillance, or one where surveillance is generally available. https://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Society-Technology-Betwee... laid out the case for this over 20 years ago.
Here are the realistic choices.
On the one hand, we can create any set of rules we want on paper. We can get governments to officially support it. We can be frustrated as those same governments do it ineffectively. And then watch as the rules meant to curtail monopolies get caught by regulatory capture and are manipulated to support the very organizations that they are theoretically supposed to punish. (Seriously, do you expect any secret service to not take advantage of what is possible? Have you heard of Snowden?)
Or we can choose the path recommended in https://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Society-Technology-Betwee..., accept that surveillance is real. And put the tools in the hands of the masses. This is already happening. See https://asherkaye.medium.com/do-you-know-this-man-7836e54abc... for a story of how a random person in a random photo was tracked down by an internet stranger using reverse image search with facial recognition. And the tools are only getting better and harder to stop over time.
I personally hate both futures. But I hate the first one more. And I see people like you as unwitting pawns who are creating the first of those two futures. And your unwillingness to understand how things actually work, combined with your certainty that you've got the moral high ground, makes you an easily manipulated true believer.
Enjoy your certainty that you're in the right here. I guarantee that you'll have a lot to be upset about in the way that our world is shaping up.
Thanks for the recommendation on The Transparent Society. I haven't read it, but certainly will.
The idea that the surveillance tools are "put in the hands of masses" neglects the part where the "masses" includes corporations that do it better, because they have the ability to pay handsomely thousands of people to make it effective. So rather than accept the defeatist position -- "We are powerless to stop technology," even though surveillance capitalism is a choice, and one that we don't have to accept -- we can choose meaningful laws which restrict those actions. We can choose meaningful laws which change the economic imperatives so that corporations don't profit from tracking and shaping human behavior. Will it be perfect? Absolutely not. Is defeat inevitable? Perhaps. But sitting on the sidelines and choosing not to shape that future because of some sense of foregone inevitability.... that cannot be the future, unless we believe that those now with the ability to shape it (and someone will -- Google, Facebook, or someone else) deserve to have that right without being challenged.
I cannot accept that. I will not be gaslit into believing that I'm 'too concerned' or 'reading too much into it'. This does not have to be our future.
The idea that the surveillance tools are "put in the hands of masses" neglects the part where the "masses" includes corporations that do it better, because they have the ability to pay handsomely thousands of people to make it effective. So rather than accept the defeatist position -- "We are powerless to stop technology," even though surveillance capitalism is a choice, and one that we don't have to accept -- we can choose meaningful laws which restrict those actions. We can choose meaningful laws which change the economic imperatives so that corporations don't profit from tracking and shaping human behavior. Will it be perfect? Absolutely not. Is defeat inevitable? Perhaps. But sitting on the sidelines and choosing not to shape that future because of some sense of foregone inevitability.... that cannot be the future, unless we believe that those now with the ability to shape it (and someone will -- Google, Facebook, or someone else) deserve to have that right without being challenged.
I cannot accept that. I will not be gaslit into believing that I'm 'too concerned' or 'reading too much into it'. This does not have to be our future.
You, myself, everyone -- we're jaded. Got it.
Not much concerned with descriptions, so what's your prescription:
What do you believe to be satisfactory wording in this case?
Not much concerned with descriptions, so what's your prescription:
What do you believe to be satisfactory wording in this case?
If you read into the federated technology they've been deploying I'm fairly comfortable saying I agree with their decisions.
Let's take a look at the "Now Playing" architecture available on Pixel devices.
At first glance by a critic you think "You're crazy for giving Google permission to have your microphone always on and listening for songs you're hearing, privacy this privacy that".
If you read into it, you'll be comforted to know they've built a model to generate signatures clientside which are able to be compared on-device to a list of signatures which are similar to it. Then as far as I understand, they are able to take signatures which contain no discernable audio data and use those to discover new audio trends.
> On Pixel 4 and later phones, the counts of songs recognized are aggregated using a privacy-preserving technology called federated analytics. This will be used to improve Now Playing's song database so it will recognize what’s playing more often. Google can never see what songs you listen to, just the most popular songs in different regions.
Privacy-preserving, user-beneficial, and useful for advertising targeting if you haven't opted out of interest based ads.
Let's take a look at the "Now Playing" architecture available on Pixel devices.
At first glance by a critic you think "You're crazy for giving Google permission to have your microphone always on and listening for songs you're hearing, privacy this privacy that".
If you read into it, you'll be comforted to know they've built a model to generate signatures clientside which are able to be compared on-device to a list of signatures which are similar to it. Then as far as I understand, they are able to take signatures which contain no discernable audio data and use those to discover new audio trends.
> On Pixel 4 and later phones, the counts of songs recognized are aggregated using a privacy-preserving technology called federated analytics. This will be used to improve Now Playing's song database so it will recognize what’s playing more often. Google can never see what songs you listen to, just the most popular songs in different regions.
Privacy-preserving, user-beneficial, and useful for advertising targeting if you haven't opted out of interest based ads.
As far as "now playing",what they say the software does may be quite clever in privacy preserving ways.
But once you have given them access to your microphone, you have to trust that their software does what they say it does, without mistakes or bugs (whether in design or implementation) or accidental security vulnerabilities (possibly maliciously introduced by the NSA or who knows).
If you do not give them access to your microphone (assuming the OS access controls are themselves working; but that's a much smaller attack area), you do not need to understand trust anything.
But once you have given them access to your microphone, you have to trust that their software does what they say it does, without mistakes or bugs (whether in design or implementation) or accidental security vulnerabilities (possibly maliciously introduced by the NSA or who knows).
If you do not give them access to your microphone (assuming the OS access controls are themselves working; but that's a much smaller attack area), you do not need to understand trust anything.
And this is from a company that forgot to tell people that the flashy smart thermostat they bought last year has had a mic in it the whole time.
They are a company that will only pay attention to privacy when forced to by an existential threat. It just isn't in their company DNA to care about user privacy. They aren't the customers.
They are a company that will only pay attention to privacy when forced to by an existential threat. It just isn't in their company DNA to care about user privacy. They aren't the customers.
> that the flashy smart thermostat they bought last year has had a mic in it the whole time.
Note to readers: This is false.
EDIT: If you're downvoting, please provide evidence. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and OPs post increases it.
EDIT #2: Here is Rishi Chandra, GM of Nest: "Putting a microphone on a thermostat, I actually don't think makes any sense"
Note to readers: This is false.
EDIT: If you're downvoting, please provide evidence. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and OPs post increases it.
EDIT #2: Here is Rishi Chandra, GM of Nest: "Putting a microphone on a thermostat, I actually don't think makes any sense"
https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-micropho...
It was in their security hub which is perhaps better or worse than the thermostat depending on your view.
It was in their security hub which is perhaps better or worse than the thermostat depending on your view.
My understanding is that security hub announced glass break detection from day 1. And that feature uses a microphone to listen to glass breaks... so I wasn't surprised. But, I guess that's not obvious to everyone, so they could've put it on the box.
And, I just didn't HN readers to think there was a mic on the thermostat, so I was correcting that.
And, I just didn't HN readers to think there was a mic on the thermostat, so I was correcting that.
Having a microphone to detect broken glass is very much not obvious. As someone completely unfamiliar with the problem space, I would have assumed the normal solsolution was something along the lines of: run a current throught the glass and check the voltage "drop".
I could see this if you connected the device to the system that monitored this. But since you never do that in the install process, I am not sure why you'd assume that's how the system would work.
you have to trust
Remember when Google sent hundreds if not thousands of cars all around the world and 'accidentally' hoovered up massive amounts of information?
I'm sure it was all an innocent mistake. Google are certainly worthy of our trust! /s
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...
Remember when Google sent hundreds if not thousands of cars all around the world and 'accidentally' hoovered up massive amounts of information?
I'm sure it was all an innocent mistake. Google are certainly worthy of our trust! /s
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...
> If you read into the federated technology they've been deploying I'm fairly comfortable saying I agree with their decisions.
I don't, not in this case. The only thing that FLoC seems to change is how data is aggregated and how buckets are determined. But fundamentally, the idea of taking users, putting them into a box based on their normal browsing habits behind the scenes, and then broadcasting that box and associated data to every website they visit -- that's just not a private model.
What Google doesn't seem to understand (or chooses not to understand) is that the end result of bucketing users and sharing data about them behind the scenes while they browse is the part that many people object to. So Google keeps on trying to come up with systems that allow them to serve different content to people and to collect demographic info based on variables and processes outside of users' control -- but to somehow do it in a way that is magically not a problem.
But it's like trying to create a 'nice' mugging. It's not just the methods I'm opposed to, it's also the end goal.
FLoC still doesn't give users control over how they present themselves on the web. And part of privacy -- part of the reason I care about privacy in the first place -- is because people should have control over how they present themselves on the web. There are tools Google could build if they wanted to go in that direction, but FLoC remains an opaque system that runs in the background that collects data about you and sends it to every website that you visit. That's not a private system, regardless of how the data is collected. It's not designed to be transparent, it's not designed around user consent.
Honestly, it shouldn't even be an opt-in/opt-out system. Why can't I choose what buckets I belong to? Google isn't thinking deeply about user choice, they're not even being remotely imaginative about how they could give users more power over what ads are shown to them. They're still stuck in a mindset of "this needs to happen behind the scenes outside of your control where you don't know what we think about you. And we'll let you opt out of the entire system purely because we're forced to. But nothing else!"
I don't, not in this case. The only thing that FLoC seems to change is how data is aggregated and how buckets are determined. But fundamentally, the idea of taking users, putting them into a box based on their normal browsing habits behind the scenes, and then broadcasting that box and associated data to every website they visit -- that's just not a private model.
What Google doesn't seem to understand (or chooses not to understand) is that the end result of bucketing users and sharing data about them behind the scenes while they browse is the part that many people object to. So Google keeps on trying to come up with systems that allow them to serve different content to people and to collect demographic info based on variables and processes outside of users' control -- but to somehow do it in a way that is magically not a problem.
But it's like trying to create a 'nice' mugging. It's not just the methods I'm opposed to, it's also the end goal.
FLoC still doesn't give users control over how they present themselves on the web. And part of privacy -- part of the reason I care about privacy in the first place -- is because people should have control over how they present themselves on the web. There are tools Google could build if they wanted to go in that direction, but FLoC remains an opaque system that runs in the background that collects data about you and sends it to every website that you visit. That's not a private system, regardless of how the data is collected. It's not designed to be transparent, it's not designed around user consent.
Honestly, it shouldn't even be an opt-in/opt-out system. Why can't I choose what buckets I belong to? Google isn't thinking deeply about user choice, they're not even being remotely imaginative about how they could give users more power over what ads are shown to them. They're still stuck in a mindset of "this needs to happen behind the scenes outside of your control where you don't know what we think about you. And we'll let you opt out of the entire system purely because we're forced to. But nothing else!"
This is actually a really good point. A lot of privacy-related things people complain about are actually related to how you present yourself, how your identity is seen by the computer system you’re interacting with.
That’s been on my mind a lot lately, so much that I wrote a thing about it: https://kronopath.net/blog/segmented-identity-as-necessary-f...
That’s been on my mind a lot lately, so much that I wrote a thing about it: https://kronopath.net/blog/segmented-identity-as-necessary-f...
This is a great point. What is "found"? Like the point is "I don't want 3rd party websites to be AT ALL AWARE that I visited another site". How can you find an alternative? I don't want an alternative, I want it gone.
If google does this, and other browsers don't, it would mean that just using another browser like Firefox will effectively hide you. Hoping for that.
If google does this, and other browsers don't, it would mean that just using another browser like Firefox will effectively hide you. Hoping for that.
Company: Supports measures that lead to additional privacy because they realize how important it is to their users
HN: Don't be tricked, Google is evil.
Like I understand WHY there's a hate boner for Google. I just don't understand why people think it's bad for them to acknowledge the preferences of their users and make decisions accordingly.
HN: Don't be tricked, Google is evil.
Like I understand WHY there's a hate boner for Google. I just don't understand why people think it's bad for them to acknowledge the preferences of their users and make decisions accordingly.
I may begin to trust Google when they provide a single switch to disable ALL tracking on android phone (or better disable all of them by default). That's what my preference is and it isn't respected.
> I just don't understand why people think it's bad for them to acknowledge the preferences of their users and make decisions accordingly.
Aside from that. Why on earth should we trust Google will limit their collection to this one method? They've lied over and over about what they collect. Been caught multiple times breaking laws to collect information only to say "Oops, it was a rough engineer". They've been caught bypassing the no-tracking flag in browsers. They've been caught abusing location data after users disabled it.
As the saying goes: Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me 750 times, why in the fuck am I still using Google?
Aside from that. Why on earth should we trust Google will limit their collection to this one method? They've lied over and over about what they collect. Been caught multiple times breaking laws to collect information only to say "Oops, it was a rough engineer". They've been caught bypassing the no-tracking flag in browsers. They've been caught abusing location data after users disabled it.
As the saying goes: Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me 750 times, why in the fuck am I still using Google?
Because the preferences of their users would be to stop tracking their users. You don't need a replacement, you just need to get rid of it.
There's a significant amount of gaslighting to claiming that you value user privacy whilst developing new ways to track users.
There's a significant amount of gaslighting to claiming that you value user privacy whilst developing new ways to track users.
Are you sure?
I think there's lots of consumers that find the tradeoff okay - in fact I hear people state as much all the time. Maybe they don't know the extent of the tracking, or they don't care, but the opinion exists and it's not negligible.
If companies could anonymously track users, and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it -- in fact, prefer it.
If companies could anonymously track users, and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it -- in fact, prefer it.
Would they prefer it enough to opt into that tracking and targeting?
If users had to go to a setting to turn on targeted ads, what percentage of them do you think would do it? I suspect it would be pretty low. I wonder if most people would even notice that the setting had been turned off?
We use the opt out model all the time to justify why users don't actually care about tracking -- we say that they'd opt out if they did care. But I feel like we all mostly know that an opt in system would also not see much use (that's the reason why ad networks are so opposed to them), and I don't know why we don't consider that to be evidence that consumers probably don't value targeted ads very much at all.
If users had to go to a setting to turn on targeted ads, what percentage of them do you think would do it? I suspect it would be pretty low. I wonder if most people would even notice that the setting had been turned off?
We use the opt out model all the time to justify why users don't actually care about tracking -- we say that they'd opt out if they did care. But I feel like we all mostly know that an opt in system would also not see much use (that's the reason why ad networks are so opposed to them), and I don't know why we don't consider that to be evidence that consumers probably don't value targeted ads very much at all.
> Would they prefer it enough to opt into that tracking and targeting?
I believe a a sizable portion would. They like the targeted offers and ads. Maybe because they enjoy the feel of something being catered to them, maybe because they are addicted to shopping/consumerists. IDK.
> If users had to go to a setting to turn on targeted ads, what percentage of them do you think would do it? I suspect it would be pretty low. I wonder if most people would even notice that the setting had been turned off?
I think this is a really good question. The power of opt-in vs. opt-out, as you noted.
However, I don't know if we can conclude whether they value it or not solely from their willingness to opt-in. We really have to account for how the ability to opt-in is exposed. If we showed it on every size (akin to the cookie accept craze of today), we'd see a lot of people opt-in. If it were hidden in a chrome settings, far less just because that's mentally off limits for many, and easily forgettable.
I totally agree with you on somewhat sinister motivation of opt-out over opt-out patterns.
I believe a a sizable portion would. They like the targeted offers and ads. Maybe because they enjoy the feel of something being catered to them, maybe because they are addicted to shopping/consumerists. IDK.
> If users had to go to a setting to turn on targeted ads, what percentage of them do you think would do it? I suspect it would be pretty low. I wonder if most people would even notice that the setting had been turned off?
I think this is a really good question. The power of opt-in vs. opt-out, as you noted.
However, I don't know if we can conclude whether they value it or not solely from their willingness to opt-in. We really have to account for how the ability to opt-in is exposed. If we showed it on every size (akin to the cookie accept craze of today), we'd see a lot of people opt-in. If it were hidden in a chrome settings, far less just because that's mentally off limits for many, and easily forgettable.
I totally agree with you on somewhat sinister motivation of opt-out over opt-out patterns.
> Are you sure?
If users are given the option in clear terms, most users will turn off tracking. Facebook knows this, it's why they are so pissed off at Apple and have taken such an aggressive public stance against Apple. Google knows it, it's why they haven't published an update to any of the iPhone apps since Apple started requiring their apps report what end user data they collect.
Google and Facebook are sure... not sure anyone else is more qualified on this.
> If companies could anonymously track users, and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it -- in fact, prefer it.
If this were true, why doesn't Google, Facebook, and others give us straight-forward ways to opt out? If people would prefer it, why exactly is Facebook trying so damned hard to prevent Apple from giving people a simple opt out?
If users are given the option in clear terms, most users will turn off tracking. Facebook knows this, it's why they are so pissed off at Apple and have taken such an aggressive public stance against Apple. Google knows it, it's why they haven't published an update to any of the iPhone apps since Apple started requiring their apps report what end user data they collect.
Google and Facebook are sure... not sure anyone else is more qualified on this.
> If companies could anonymously track users, and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it -- in fact, prefer it.
If this were true, why doesn't Google, Facebook, and others give us straight-forward ways to opt out? If people would prefer it, why exactly is Facebook trying so damned hard to prevent Apple from giving people a simple opt out?
> If this were true, why doesn't Google, Facebook, and others give us straight-forward ways to opt out?
I don't think anyone expected them to just flip the switch and do that without a reasonable (maybe to just them?) alternative I can say, the idea of using 'cohorts' as discussed by this FLOC approach, from what I can tell, is positive progress. Is it far enough? Perhaps not.
> why exactly is Facebook trying so damned hard to prevent Apple from giving people a simple opt out?
Good question. I am not aware of that issue.
I also Question Apple as they take payment from Google to the tune of billions of dollars for search, pushing 'beacons' etc, while promoting themselves a bastion of privacy and security. None of it is as simple as it seems.
I don't think anyone expected them to just flip the switch and do that without a reasonable (maybe to just them?) alternative I can say, the idea of using 'cohorts' as discussed by this FLOC approach, from what I can tell, is positive progress. Is it far enough? Perhaps not.
> why exactly is Facebook trying so damned hard to prevent Apple from giving people a simple opt out?
Good question. I am not aware of that issue.
I also Question Apple as they take payment from Google to the tune of billions of dollars for search, pushing 'beacons' etc, while promoting themselves a bastion of privacy and security. None of it is as simple as it seems.
> I don't think anyone expected them to just flip the switch and do that without a reasonable (maybe to just them?)
No more than anyone expects a heroin addict to stop cold turkey. The problem is Google isn't stopping or giving people the option to opt out, they are just changing tactics slightly.
This also doesn't really talk about how this data gets integrated into the rest of the profile Google has built and will continue to build on users (without their permission) based on their search history, mapping, email, etc.
Google isn't
No more than anyone expects a heroin addict to stop cold turkey. The problem is Google isn't stopping or giving people the option to opt out, they are just changing tactics slightly.
This also doesn't really talk about how this data gets integrated into the rest of the profile Google has built and will continue to build on users (without their permission) based on their search history, mapping, email, etc.
Google isn't
> "Google isn't"
Did you accidently clip the rest of your message?
Did you accidently clip the rest of your message?
I think I started a paragraph then started it again and forgot to crop the dead end.
> I think there's lots of consumers that find the tradeoff okay
How often do consumers even get asked? My webmail provider seems to have no issues providing both paid and ad supported. Other services just pulled the paid plan from under my feet. Whats App with its new terms and conditions once had a small yearly fee, Facebook dropped it. User choice? certainly not mine.
> If companies could anonymously track users
That is like trying to identify a suspect using a smiley face. If they track you it isn't anonymous.
> and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it
Why do we need targeted ads? Websites usually have topics they are focused on, is it wrong to show car ads on a page for car enthusiasts? On a news story showing a newly released car?
How often do consumers even get asked? My webmail provider seems to have no issues providing both paid and ad supported. Other services just pulled the paid plan from under my feet. Whats App with its new terms and conditions once had a small yearly fee, Facebook dropped it. User choice? certainly not mine.
> If companies could anonymously track users
That is like trying to identify a suspect using a smiley face. If they track you it isn't anonymous.
> and still maintain the marketing backbone of the internet I think most people would be fine with it
Why do we need targeted ads? Websites usually have topics they are focused on, is it wrong to show car ads on a page for car enthusiasts? On a news story showing a newly released car?
> How often do consumers even get asked?
Purely anecdotal that I am drawing from -- I've had this discussion with quite a few non-tech folks over the last few years privacy/tracking has hit the zeitgeist.
Many dismissively state something like, "I know. Don't care. Means stuffs free right?", or "I'm not doing anything wrong, I don't care".
> That is like trying to identify a suspect using a smiley face. If they track you it isn't anonymous
By that I mean regulations around what they track, identifiable data, not being able to explicitly say User2021 === Josefx on the system. I think this is why Google is going with the 'cohorts' in their FloC approach.
> Why do we need targeted ads?
Good question. "Need", probably not. But if I am on facebook, and ads are going to happen, do I want highest bidder ads like "Find Hot Milks in your Area Now" interspersed between my feed's family baby photos or an add for "World's best Uncle" T-Shirts? There's a happy medium somewhere.
Purely anecdotal that I am drawing from -- I've had this discussion with quite a few non-tech folks over the last few years privacy/tracking has hit the zeitgeist.
Many dismissively state something like, "I know. Don't care. Means stuffs free right?", or "I'm not doing anything wrong, I don't care".
> That is like trying to identify a suspect using a smiley face. If they track you it isn't anonymous
By that I mean regulations around what they track, identifiable data, not being able to explicitly say User2021 === Josefx on the system. I think this is why Google is going with the 'cohorts' in their FloC approach.
> Why do we need targeted ads?
Good question. "Need", probably not. But if I am on facebook, and ads are going to happen, do I want highest bidder ads like "Find Hot Milks in your Area Now" interspersed between my feed's family baby photos or an add for "World's best Uncle" T-Shirts? There's a happy medium somewhere.
Don't you need at least some tracking to avoid fraudulent clicks?
I'm as pro-privacy as they come, but until someone comes with the incentive or dedication to build an alternate payment ecosystem out of nowhere, ads are what the web is built on.
I'm as pro-privacy as they come, but until someone comes with the incentive or dedication to build an alternate payment ecosystem out of nowhere, ads are what the web is built on.
Agreed. When I saw this title and read the article, the first thing I thought was "Ok, how to I block this/opt-out". It sounds like this is only in Chrome though, for now. One hopes that FF will continue to be privacy focused and not add anything like this.
You said "they are desperate to find something".
They said they "found" something. I see similarities.
They said they "found" something. I see similarities.
sudo apt install chromium-browser
So they are now rebranding the fact that they are trying to monopolize the ad space?
Google has already lost the trust of being a company that remotely respects anybody's privacy, if any at all. I would rather spend time on some other privacy proposals.
Netscape should have them "herpes" instead of "cookies".
"In a landmark decision, Google has decided to continue keeping the "Don't be evil" principal off of their Company Principles list"
EDIT: The official description [https://github.com/WICG/floc], does a better job in explaining the point. They try to cluster (="cohort") users interests and exchange that with the ad-service. This could maybe help to increase transparency and authority over your data as it's saved locally. But I don't see a way to limit the access to the users cohorts (they even say that themself, see link above). Everybody could access my interests - not just Google and other ad services. And of course, if you have 1000 categories and some meta information (region based on IP address etc.), you will be able to track down individual users with pretty good accuracy.