Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing
255 comments
I made a (much less fancy) rowing machine program in 1984 (for the original Concept II).
It was written in 6502 assembly language for the Apple II.
It had a really nice display:
- 2 boats, with oars moving timed to your pulls - scrolling scenery - stroke power graphs - odometers that rolled over like mechanical odometers.
I had a piece of tinfoil taped to the wheel on the concept II. There was an aluminum box divided in two with a flashlight bulb on one side and a photocell on the other. When the tinfoil passed under the alumium box the photocell resistance would change, which would be available to the program via a wirewrapped expansion board (that also gave the Apple II 60hz interrupts - a native Apple II has no timer or interrupt controller). I later saw a Cateye magnetic bicyle wheel sensor and felt like such an idiot.
It also had an integrated breakout game that was controlled by the difference in power between the two rowers. Because of how one wrote games in that day (often directly using screen memory as data), if the ball ever escaped the brickout playfield it would start colliding with (and corrupting) other things on the screen, and if it ever left the screen, with random bits of executable code.
When you got a high score on a 20 min row, I had an army surplus air raid siren that would spin up. The idea was that after you completely killed youself on the erg, you would then have to run like crazy to avoid getting deafened by an air raid siren in a small room (thankfully this last part never worked well). A very high school idea.
It was written in 6502 assembly language for the Apple II.
It had a really nice display:
- 2 boats, with oars moving timed to your pulls - scrolling scenery - stroke power graphs - odometers that rolled over like mechanical odometers.
I had a piece of tinfoil taped to the wheel on the concept II. There was an aluminum box divided in two with a flashlight bulb on one side and a photocell on the other. When the tinfoil passed under the alumium box the photocell resistance would change, which would be available to the program via a wirewrapped expansion board (that also gave the Apple II 60hz interrupts - a native Apple II has no timer or interrupt controller). I later saw a Cateye magnetic bicyle wheel sensor and felt like such an idiot.
It also had an integrated breakout game that was controlled by the difference in power between the two rowers. Because of how one wrote games in that day (often directly using screen memory as data), if the ball ever escaped the brickout playfield it would start colliding with (and corrupting) other things on the screen, and if it ever left the screen, with random bits of executable code.
When you got a high score on a 20 min row, I had an army surplus air raid siren that would spin up. The idea was that after you completely killed youself on the erg, you would then have to run like crazy to avoid getting deafened by an air raid siren in a small room (thankfully this last part never worked well). A very high school idea.
That is the most impressive thing I've heard all day. I wish the air raid siren worked haha.
I would really like to see photos/videos of this
Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).
I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often former rowers). So HIT is probably the right way to go.
The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.
All the best, I hope you succeed!
I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often former rowers). So HIT is probably the right way to go.
The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.
All the best, I hope you succeed!
Thanks for the feedback! So far customers are happy and we haven't had many issues. Its a big challenge for sure, but someone had to try and do something different :)
The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.
Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best. Unlike all the cheap brands, Concept2 have very accurately measured the moment of inertia of their flywheel and have an exacting manufacturing process that ensures it stays true.
As a result, the power data you see on the screen is an accurate measure of the work you're doing.
Most (not all) machines guesstimate it in comparison. You can just go with HR if you want, but don't pretend you can compare any other figures sensibly with a C2.
Point of note: the "distance" figure on a C2 is based on what a coxless four would have covered under the same power.
Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best. Unlike all the cheap brands, Concept2 have very accurately measured the moment of inertia of their flywheel and have an exacting manufacturing process that ensures it stays true.
As a result, the power data you see on the screen is an accurate measure of the work you're doing.
Most (not all) machines guesstimate it in comparison. You can just go with HR if you want, but don't pretend you can compare any other figures sensibly with a C2.
Point of note: the "distance" figure on a C2 is based on what a coxless four would have covered under the same power.
You might be surprised to hear that regardless of what the damper is set to, the metrics do not change on the display if you were to maintain the same SPM and stroke length.
Not sure what you're claiming, but SPM and stroke length isn't a measure of how much work you are doing. For instance, you could have the exact same SPM, stroke length, and damper settings, and row either a 3:00 or a 2:00 500m time.
I'm aware of that. I would say that's the main reason why they are popular with all the rowers, but I doubt it's why they are popular with gyms for example.
Note of interest, when I was a junior the concepts started to become popular. I was training mainly on the model B, which sounded like a jetplane, incredibly loud! It was such a change when they brought out the model C. I have never seen a model A in real life, but they sure look like made in a garage.
model B: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-rowers/model-b
model A: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-rowers/model-a
Note of interest, when I was a junior the concepts started to become popular. I was training mainly on the model B, which sounded like a jetplane, incredibly loud! It was such a change when they brought out the model C. I have never seen a model A in real life, but they sure look like made in a garage.
model B: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-rowers/model-b
model A: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-rowers/model-a
The other reason they are popular with gyms (and boat clubs) is twofold; they are virtually indestructible, and whenever do need to replace worn parts, their product support is ace - details manualed, schematics, and parts, even for that forty year old model A.
This support extends right across their lineup - at big regattas, they will be there doing for free oar repairs.
If you want, you can retrofit the latest PM5 monitor on every model, even including the A, and use it on Zwift and friends.
(I have a C2 from '96, and it still goes just like the new one in the gym)
This support extends right across their lineup - at big regattas, they will be there doing for free oar repairs.
If you want, you can retrofit the latest PM5 monitor on every model, even including the A, and use it on Zwift and friends.
(I have a C2 from '96, and it still goes just like the new one in the gym)
Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship, built like tanks and I've spent a few hundreds hours on these machines (blaming the weather gods and the winter season).
1) The PM2 units (the old LCD ones, stock on Model C ergs) were particularly bad, suffering from some well known "issues". The sensors in them had not a high enough sample rate + high hysteresis in the sensors. That means that "pulling hard" at the catch (for non-on-the-water rowers: the beginning of a stroke cycle, when your hands are closest to the flywheel) and then backing off the handle force rewards you with higher measured power than actual.
2) This became a lot better with the PM4 generation (stock on Model D and up). However they still have another issue. The force exerted by the suspension cord that pulls the chain back into the housing is not subtracted from the measurement. The sensor only measures effective force/rpm on the flywheel. This is the reason why virtual regattas (serious competitions anyway) are always staged on brand new ergs where the suspension cords have not different levels of fatigue. The ergs are typically sold off after the events (which is of course a marketing/logistics trick just as well).
"Proper" testing on a C2 thus involves measuring handle force directly. This can be done by linking a strain gauge between handle and chain.
3) Speaking of racing events, it's pretty interesting how C2 has enabled virtual/digital racing long before "digitalising" things was a big trend. The interface that the PM4s use for regattas is based on RS485 over RJ45 (you can also use USB but that's not the recommended way for large scale > 16 seats races). The PM3 were wired using telephone/RJ11 and I think it was RS232 IIRC.
4) The single most important "calibration" on a Concept rower is the Drag Factor (the displays can show it in an advanced menu). The drag factor is essentially how fast the flywheel slows down, i.e. how much drag it has. Different ergs have different amounts of dust in them and wear on the bearings, which is why the "flap setting" really shouldn't be used as an absolute/comparable measure between machines.
Racing with a higher/lower drag factor is purely a matter of preference of the athlete and where their personal optimum for performing mechanical work lies. You can think of it like a gearing to increase resistance. In "on the water" rowing we can change gearing using inner/outer handle length of the oar on the gate to achieve a similar effect. This is very important since speed vs. the water varies a lot between boat classes from about ~4m/s in a single (1x) to ~6m/s in a 8+/4x. Our testing protocols recommended 125-140 (female-male).
5) While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power. Since ergs don't float, their mechanics are a lot simpler than a real rowing boat. Work on an erg is handle force x distance, i.e. you integrate the force-distance curve of the handle. That means long strokes are better - the most common beginner mistake is to waste stroke length.
6) Related to 1) and 5) there's a special "erg technique" of pulling the chord up the chest as you move angle your back backwards at the end. This gains you extra stroke length and "stealing" a bit more mechanical work due to sensor hysteresis. This works on a PM4 and up too. You can only get away with this on an erg. On the water pulling off this sort of trick at race speeds will most likely eject you from the boat. It may look like a funny catapult but ejecting from the boat can 100% kill you if your head hits a rigger or blade. See [0] for a close encounter.
7a) "Ergs don't float" is a saying for another important reason. They fail to simulate the impulse exchange between rower and boat mass. This is very important for real world rowing performance because minimizing boat shell velocity fluctuations means less mechanical work required to travel the same distance [1]. This is also the reason why it's preferable to have a "front-loaded" force curve profile. Coincidentally the sensor hysteresis of the concept ergs rewards that... maybe it's engineered intentionally? :-)
7b) Anyways, Avoiding vertical shell movement is of similar importance as wetted surface (and thus drag) increases massively if you push the boat down into the water. Athletes thus have a to maintain very delicate balance between stretcher and handle forces not to offset the systems center of mass during the stroke cycle. None of that matters on an erg.
7c) And most important: Ergs don't simulate the interaction of impulse exchanges between a whole crew of rowers that can never be perfectly in sync. Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging. From my coaching experience I can also recommend it especially to beginners. It may sound counterintuitive, but it's much less forgiving to errors in your motion sequence/force application and will thus make you a better (and more healthier!) rower much quicker.
8) Rowers are an incredible bunch of creative and resourceful people. There's so many tinkerers in the community... a shout to a couple of things in the erg space:
- Waterrower hit big thanks to House of Cards. This plus cross-fit certainly made rowing much more popular as a sport. Waterrowers are not used in serious capacity in competitive training though as far as I'm aware.
- Augletics are a bunch of former competitive rowers building an erg using a electromagnetic brake (that can support more realistic force profiles/dynamics). And you don't get that "wooooosh" sound ringing in your ears that won't go away for hours after a 90min C2 erg session...
- Biorower simulates proper sculling technique, boat rotation and uses mechanical gears instead of a flywheel
Anyhow - great to see more innovation like Aviron in the space even if it's "just" targeted at recreational/fitness use case. It's a fabulous sport and I applaud you for making it more accessible. Hope it gets people to dip their toes so they may one day decide to get their feet wet and hit their local rowing club.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2k_026KrY [1] https://www.rowinginmotion.com/drag-efficiency-rowing/
1) The PM2 units (the old LCD ones, stock on Model C ergs) were particularly bad, suffering from some well known "issues". The sensors in them had not a high enough sample rate + high hysteresis in the sensors. That means that "pulling hard" at the catch (for non-on-the-water rowers: the beginning of a stroke cycle, when your hands are closest to the flywheel) and then backing off the handle force rewards you with higher measured power than actual.
2) This became a lot better with the PM4 generation (stock on Model D and up). However they still have another issue. The force exerted by the suspension cord that pulls the chain back into the housing is not subtracted from the measurement. The sensor only measures effective force/rpm on the flywheel. This is the reason why virtual regattas (serious competitions anyway) are always staged on brand new ergs where the suspension cords have not different levels of fatigue. The ergs are typically sold off after the events (which is of course a marketing/logistics trick just as well).
"Proper" testing on a C2 thus involves measuring handle force directly. This can be done by linking a strain gauge between handle and chain.
3) Speaking of racing events, it's pretty interesting how C2 has enabled virtual/digital racing long before "digitalising" things was a big trend. The interface that the PM4s use for regattas is based on RS485 over RJ45 (you can also use USB but that's not the recommended way for large scale > 16 seats races). The PM3 were wired using telephone/RJ11 and I think it was RS232 IIRC.
4) The single most important "calibration" on a Concept rower is the Drag Factor (the displays can show it in an advanced menu). The drag factor is essentially how fast the flywheel slows down, i.e. how much drag it has. Different ergs have different amounts of dust in them and wear on the bearings, which is why the "flap setting" really shouldn't be used as an absolute/comparable measure between machines.
Racing with a higher/lower drag factor is purely a matter of preference of the athlete and where their personal optimum for performing mechanical work lies. You can think of it like a gearing to increase resistance. In "on the water" rowing we can change gearing using inner/outer handle length of the oar on the gate to achieve a similar effect. This is very important since speed vs. the water varies a lot between boat classes from about ~4m/s in a single (1x) to ~6m/s in a 8+/4x. Our testing protocols recommended 125-140 (female-male).
5) While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power. Since ergs don't float, their mechanics are a lot simpler than a real rowing boat. Work on an erg is handle force x distance, i.e. you integrate the force-distance curve of the handle. That means long strokes are better - the most common beginner mistake is to waste stroke length.
6) Related to 1) and 5) there's a special "erg technique" of pulling the chord up the chest as you move angle your back backwards at the end. This gains you extra stroke length and "stealing" a bit more mechanical work due to sensor hysteresis. This works on a PM4 and up too. You can only get away with this on an erg. On the water pulling off this sort of trick at race speeds will most likely eject you from the boat. It may look like a funny catapult but ejecting from the boat can 100% kill you if your head hits a rigger or blade. See [0] for a close encounter.
7a) "Ergs don't float" is a saying for another important reason. They fail to simulate the impulse exchange between rower and boat mass. This is very important for real world rowing performance because minimizing boat shell velocity fluctuations means less mechanical work required to travel the same distance [1]. This is also the reason why it's preferable to have a "front-loaded" force curve profile. Coincidentally the sensor hysteresis of the concept ergs rewards that... maybe it's engineered intentionally? :-)
7b) Anyways, Avoiding vertical shell movement is of similar importance as wetted surface (and thus drag) increases massively if you push the boat down into the water. Athletes thus have a to maintain very delicate balance between stretcher and handle forces not to offset the systems center of mass during the stroke cycle. None of that matters on an erg.
7c) And most important: Ergs don't simulate the interaction of impulse exchanges between a whole crew of rowers that can never be perfectly in sync. Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging. From my coaching experience I can also recommend it especially to beginners. It may sound counterintuitive, but it's much less forgiving to errors in your motion sequence/force application and will thus make you a better (and more healthier!) rower much quicker.
8) Rowers are an incredible bunch of creative and resourceful people. There's so many tinkerers in the community... a shout to a couple of things in the erg space:
- Waterrower hit big thanks to House of Cards. This plus cross-fit certainly made rowing much more popular as a sport. Waterrowers are not used in serious capacity in competitive training though as far as I'm aware.
- Augletics are a bunch of former competitive rowers building an erg using a electromagnetic brake (that can support more realistic force profiles/dynamics). And you don't get that "wooooosh" sound ringing in your ears that won't go away for hours after a 90min C2 erg session...
- Biorower simulates proper sculling technique, boat rotation and uses mechanical gears instead of a flywheel
Anyhow - great to see more innovation like Aviron in the space even if it's "just" targeted at recreational/fitness use case. It's a fabulous sport and I applaud you for making it more accessible. Hope it gets people to dip their toes so they may one day decide to get their feet wet and hit their local rowing club.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2k_026KrY [1] https://www.rowinginmotion.com/drag-efficiency-rowing/
Thanks for taking the time to educate myself and the community. Like you said, I hope we are able to introduce more people to this awesome exercise and sport + help people achieve their fitness goals.
Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always explained away as better technique. I’d be interested to know at a level where everyone has great technique if ergo/boat performance is more consistent.
I only have an anecdote, but when I was rowing competitively ergo competitions just started to become a thing. I know that some of them were won by nonrowers even against olympians. IIRC this was particularly true in the lightwave class, because they tend to be less genetic "freaks".
Ergs don’t float :-) The most important factor before converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg doesn’t consider any of that.
In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated anymore but there should be a published paper about this somewhere [0].
The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights that also did well where usually close to the lightweights. That’s just anecdotal though.
There are tons more differences. The next important factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My guess is the next biggest contribution to performance difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able to burry the blade in the water and apply force without losing precious stroke length. This requires precise timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip angle. The erg is much less picky about that.
I already mentioned some other points in my previous post, I bet there is tons more.
[0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev are great starting points when it comes to rowing research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.
In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated anymore but there should be a published paper about this somewhere [0].
The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights that also did well where usually close to the lightweights. That’s just anecdotal though.
There are tons more differences. The next important factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My guess is the next biggest contribution to performance difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able to burry the blade in the water and apply force without losing precious stroke length. This requires precise timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip angle. The erg is much less picky about that.
I already mentioned some other points in my previous post, I bet there is tons more.
[0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev are great starting points when it comes to rowing research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.
Of course! Thank you. My rowing days are long behind me but when everything comes together there truly is no sport like it!
My impression as a rower who spent a lot of time with people rowing in the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is that the mix is not wildly different. The same rules seem to roughly apply as at lower levels where in an 8 you have people who are more powerful but with less technique in the middle of the boat, while the ends have the people with better technique.
One other point is that it's not just about technique but ability to maintain it. What impresses me about Olympic rowing is how perfect their technique continues to be at the end of the race. Having good technique is one thing, but keeping that technique as your muscles tire is very difficult.
One other point is that it's not just about technique but ability to maintain it. What impresses me about Olympic rowing is how perfect their technique continues to be at the end of the race. Having good technique is one thing, but keeping that technique as your muscles tire is very difficult.
I fully take all your (excellent) points about the differences between the erg and the boat, but I was really talking about power measurement at the flywheel.
One point of yours though:
While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power
You are correct, but just for one stroke. The thing slowing down a boat or spinning flywheel is drag, which is a power dissipator. => Generating more power means you overcome more drag == go faster.
cf. when you take the rate up by reducing the time on the recovery while keeping work/stroke the same. Your speed increases as your rate of (the same) work increases.
edit: Also, forgot to mention this
Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging.
I made my own! https://youtu.be/0BvX8leh1_c
One point of yours though:
While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power
You are correct, but just for one stroke. The thing slowing down a boat or spinning flywheel is drag, which is a power dissipator. => Generating more power means you overcome more drag == go faster.
cf. when you take the rate up by reducing the time on the recovery while keeping work/stroke the same. Your speed increases as your rate of (the same) work increases.
edit: Also, forgot to mention this
Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging.
I made my own! https://youtu.be/0BvX8leh1_c
Huh I love C2s but have always felt that each rower s values were different. I'd feel the same level of exhaustion in one machine on a 3 compared to a ten on a different machine. Assumed some tolerance was off!
are you aware of the drag factor? Afaik, that is the exact measurement of resistance, not the damper on the side. The damper setting and friction will differ greatly from machine to machine, especially older, worn out machines.
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-gen...
https://www.concept2.com/news/damper-and-drag-olympians
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-gen...
https://www.concept2.com/news/damper-and-drag-olympians
Yes, like other commenter said - check the drag factor when you hop on each machine.
We appreciate that. So far the machines have held up in commercial facilities as well as homes and you're right we did our best to make sure they hold up for the long haul!
Why is it hard or off as a beginner? I had the same issue at first but now I can ease off and do a straight 30 minutes. I assumed it was mental but it sounds like it's technique.
Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it's very solidly built.
On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one place and it's mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely simulates rowing on the water, so some elite rowing teams use them.
I don't know about all that but I have a knee that gives me trouble sometimes, and with the Oartec I can put that foot on the ground and row with the other leg.
https://oartec.com/
https://www.rp3rowing.com/products/
Concept2 makes one now too:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/dynamic
(I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a nice big screen like OP's project.)
Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it's very solidly built.
On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one place and it's mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely simulates rowing on the water, so some elite rowing teams use them.
I don't know about all that but I have a knee that gives me trouble sometimes, and with the Oartec I can put that foot on the ground and row with the other leg.
https://oartec.com/
https://www.rp3rowing.com/products/
Concept2 makes one now too:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/dynamic
(I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a nice big screen like OP's project.)
> I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a nice big screen like OP's project.
I don't see why not. My RP3 uses any Android tablet. I have like a 7-8" tablet in there, but there is no reason I couldn't put a much larger tablet like an 18.4" Galaxy View.
I don't see why not. My RP3 uses any Android tablet. I have like a 7-8" tablet in there, but there is no reason I couldn't put a much larger tablet like an 18.4" Galaxy View.
How do you like the RP3 in general? I thought seriously about that before getting the Oartec, mainly because it was cheaper and I didn't have a strong need for portability.
I never tried the Oartec so I can't compare to it, but I'm really happy with it. There's also now the RP3 Model T that was released a few months after I got the regular RP3. I'm in the PNW, so I was able to save on shipping by picking up the RP3 in person from the US distributor.
I'm really quite happy with it and far prefer it to a C2. The software is pretty decent too and the force curve in particular is quite useful to help you figure out how to connect all three motions smoothly for mostly consistent even power.
Family and friends that have used it have struggled with getting started with it but mainly because they've learned such bad form from static machines like the C2. But near as I can tell that will happen with anyone used to a static rower that's never been on the water or coached on proper form.
I'm really quite happy with it and far prefer it to a C2. The software is pretty decent too and the force curve in particular is quite useful to help you figure out how to connect all three motions smoothly for mostly consistent even power.
Family and friends that have used it have struggled with getting started with it but mainly because they've learned such bad form from static machines like the C2. But near as I can tell that will happen with anyone used to a static rower that's never been on the water or coached on proper form.
Cool, thanks. Didn't know about the new one.
Do you feel like the RP3 teaches proper form, for someone who hasn't had coaching or been on the water?
A drawback of the Oartec is that the display is rudimentary. It'll show you speed/distance, watts, or cal/hr, and that's it.
Do you feel like the RP3 teaches proper form, for someone who hasn't had coaching or been on the water?
A drawback of the Oartec is that the display is rudimentary. It'll show you speed/distance, watts, or cal/hr, and that's it.
I wouldn't say it teaches proper form, but it does encourage it. If you're not using at least somewhat proper form, the seat really isn't going to go back to the neutral position and you're going to occasionally be bouncing off the bumpers at the front or rear of the rower.
While I don't know how to make a machine that promote the following without putting telemetry in the handle, I also coach people using my machine to row with a D-shaped motion that mimics taking the blade out of the water and almost scraping the top of your knees on the return. The goal is to force people to mostly return the handles with their forearms and torso before collapsing their knees.
The RP3 display is definitely something worth trying out. It's not perfect, but I really like it. Contact the US distributor and he might be able to put you in contact with someone local to you that has one.
While I don't know how to make a machine that promote the following without putting telemetry in the handle, I also coach people using my machine to row with a D-shaped motion that mimics taking the blade out of the water and almost scraping the top of your knees on the return. The goal is to force people to mostly return the handles with their forearms and torso before collapsing their knees.
The RP3 display is definitely something worth trying out. It's not perfect, but I really like it. Contact the US distributor and he might be able to put you in contact with someone local to you that has one.
I have not seen any quantitative data on this, so just going of my own anecdotal evidence. I think there is a couple of aspects to this. One, beginners tend pull way too much with their arms and that tends to tire you out very quickly (your arms are pretty small muscles compared to your legs). It also requires some experience on the ergo to learn that you can make hard or soft pulls at the same stroke rate (again this is difficult if you pull mainly with the arms), so beginners tend to just adjust stroke rate.
The other aspect is that rowing produces lactate in pretty high rates because of so many muscles being involved. That takes a bit of getting used to.
Ah, interesting. My back has gotten significantly stronger and that has also taken a lot of load off my arms. I've been working on "legs then back then arms" and keeping my back straight, and with a good pull from my back, my arms can almost coast. I've also been working on getting good speed with low stroke rate.
Completely disagree about all other machines being crap. The RP3 is way better than even a C2 with dynamic slides.
The C2 is popular because it's the best available at the ~$1k price point and can be purchased locally in most markets.
The C2 is popular because it's the best available at the ~$1k price point and can be purchased locally in most markets.
C2 really is the monster in the room. The rowing machine market is less diverse than exercise bikes, and C2 sits atop the mountain. Anyone who rows seriously (and many who don't) have used a C2 at some point.
The Aviron Impact Series (an odd name for a low-impact exercise machine) rower is $2149, while a C2 Model D is $900.
The Model D has been in gyms for decades. Literally, your local gym may have one that's decades old and still in perfect shape. Olympic rowers train on them. A significant portion of people who row already have one and aren't going to need a replacement any time soon.
The video on Aviron's website focuses heavily on the software, but the rower itself does not look like it should cost twice what a C2 does. The belt is plastic. The rail's finish looks like it will wear off. The rear support looks less sturdy and stable than that of a C2. The ramrod straight handle looks blister-inducing. The whole thing looks very plastic. Note that I'm not saying the rower isn't worth the money. The build quality and ergonomics might be excellent. It just doesn't look like a rower that's worth 2.39 C2's.
The display is a big improvement over anything C2 sells, but $1249 can buy a pretty nice display and a basic computer to run it, or a big ol' tablet and a mount.
Peloton probably had an easier time entering the exercise bike market because there wasn't any one competitor as dominant as C2 is. However, they do now offer an app that lets people use their software and classes without buying a Peloton bike.
The question for Aviron is, can they sell their rower without their software being exclusive to it? They would undoubtedly find more users if they supported other rowers, C2 specifically, but would the extra monthly memberships bring in more than sales from their rower if the software remained exclusive to it?
The Aviron Impact Series (an odd name for a low-impact exercise machine) rower is $2149, while a C2 Model D is $900.
The Model D has been in gyms for decades. Literally, your local gym may have one that's decades old and still in perfect shape. Olympic rowers train on them. A significant portion of people who row already have one and aren't going to need a replacement any time soon.
The video on Aviron's website focuses heavily on the software, but the rower itself does not look like it should cost twice what a C2 does. The belt is plastic. The rail's finish looks like it will wear off. The rear support looks less sturdy and stable than that of a C2. The ramrod straight handle looks blister-inducing. The whole thing looks very plastic. Note that I'm not saying the rower isn't worth the money. The build quality and ergonomics might be excellent. It just doesn't look like a rower that's worth 2.39 C2's.
The display is a big improvement over anything C2 sells, but $1249 can buy a pretty nice display and a basic computer to run it, or a big ol' tablet and a mount.
Peloton probably had an easier time entering the exercise bike market because there wasn't any one competitor as dominant as C2 is. However, they do now offer an app that lets people use their software and classes without buying a Peloton bike.
The question for Aviron is, can they sell their rower without their software being exclusive to it? They would undoubtedly find more users if they supported other rowers, C2 specifically, but would the extra monthly memberships bring in more than sales from their rower if the software remained exclusive to it?
Let me start off by saying the C2 is an amazing rower, but we thought we could improve on its design for the regular user who cares most about a fun and engaging experience. For example, the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic), the same material as seat belts. The main benefit to this is it makes the rower quieter and feels smoother. The rail is aluminum and legs and frame are made from steel, which makes it stable and is why the Aviron rower weights twice as much as the C2. Finally, it is selling for $1999 with taxes, shipping, and the screen included.
Am I missing something? Your site says $2149, not $1999. And it has a $29/mo membership.
After staying on the site for some time, a pop-up form asking for your email in return for an additional $150 off will appear.
And yes, the membership is $29/mo or $25/mo if a year is paid up front.
And yes, the membership is $29/mo or $25/mo if a year is paid up front.
Sorry for sounding negative but that's half a gym membership right there. Except for a gym membership I can go 24/7 down the block (5 min walk) get access to 8 C2 rowers, a bunch of barbells, dumbbells, treadmills and spinning bikes as needed, as well as a sauna and space to train in many different ways with friends. Covid will blow over, blowing 300 bucks on a subscription for such a narrow training gear will just not feel like the right tradeoff.
(Former competitive rower here, so YMMV.)
Alright, off to the gym. :)
(Former competitive rower here, so YMMV.)
Alright, off to the gym. :)
That is an appropriate argument, but afaik it's along the lines of Peloton's subscription pricing. Peloton's shown there's a clearly established market that will pay that sort of price for a home fitness service.
But isn't Peloton fairly unique? Like Crossfit, it somehow has gained a huge following that is not directly related to the actual product, it's much more about marketing nous.
That is much harder to reproduce than simply building a solid physical product.
That is much harder to reproduce than simply building a solid physical product.
+1000 to this.
You dont buy a peleton because you need economical exercise. You buy a peleton as a form of conspicuous consumption and "exclusive" group membership (I'm a spin _athelete_!) .
The marketing hyperbole gets eaten up in our IG/social media obsessed environment.
You dont buy a peleton because you need economical exercise. You buy a peleton as a form of conspicuous consumption and "exclusive" group membership (I'm a spin _athelete_!) .
The marketing hyperbole gets eaten up in our IG/social media obsessed environment.
I agree. But a lot of people split the cost of the machine and membership with multiple people in a household.
And a lot of people value the convenience of being able to have a fun and engaging workout any time, in the comfort of home.
And a lot of people value the convenience of being able to have a fun and engaging workout any time, in the comfort of home.
> the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic)
Last I checked, nylon was still a thermoplastic.
Last I checked, nylon was still a thermoplastic.
True. Just sounded cheap calling it plastic. My mistake!
As someone who has a Model D in my basement, this seems wildly off-base. The cheap water rowers with plastic belts I've used in hotel gyms felt way worse than the metal belt. The noise is almost exclusively from the flywheel and not the chain anyways. And stability has never been an issue - I love that the C2 is relatively light and easy to move. I've never used a C2 that felt anything but rock solid, even the ancient ones at my old gym.
I feel like a cool business model would be to make a replacement color screen for the C2s that can do more stuff. Their built-in games and programs are fun but very limited. I would love to have a Peloton experience on a 500 dollar screen I could add to my existing rower.
I feel like a cool business model would be to make a replacement color screen for the C2s that can do more stuff. Their built-in games and programs are fun but very limited. I would love to have a Peloton experience on a 500 dollar screen I could add to my existing rower.
I’m surprised your claiming the belt is smoother than the C2 chain. Every belt rower I’ve used skips when you pull hard. The C2 never skips.
> I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life.
Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is that how you're thinking about positioning?
Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is that how you're thinking about positioning?
Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts.
1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here.
2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the best as it doesn't change felt resistance with time, though it can be somewhat noisy, maybe 70dB. Water heats up as all the energy is dumped into it without anywhere else for it to go, so the viscosity changes very noticeably over a long workout. These also tend to have a nylon strap instead of a chain which stretches and can cause an odd sensation. Finally the worst, hydraulic piston, which has the smallest mass to dump energy into, will change resistance dramatically in a short time, and have been known to fail with experienced rowers, sometimes explosively.
There is room for an electrical resistance variant in this lineup, as has been shown with cycling, though it's important to note that thermodynamics specifies the energy has to go somewhere, and you may end up with a dangerously hot resistor bank somewhere on the machine.
It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and have them go at it for an hour straight.
1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here.
2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the best as it doesn't change felt resistance with time, though it can be somewhat noisy, maybe 70dB. Water heats up as all the energy is dumped into it without anywhere else for it to go, so the viscosity changes very noticeably over a long workout. These also tend to have a nylon strap instead of a chain which stretches and can cause an odd sensation. Finally the worst, hydraulic piston, which has the smallest mass to dump energy into, will change resistance dramatically in a short time, and have been known to fail with experienced rowers, sometimes explosively.
There is room for an electrical resistance variant in this lineup, as has been shown with cycling, though it's important to note that thermodynamics specifies the energy has to go somewhere, and you may end up with a dangerously hot resistor bank somewhere on the machine.
It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and have them go at it for an hour straight.
> maybe 70dB
Decidedly more than 70dB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8
Water rowers peak at nearly 80.
The Concept 2 clears 100dB
edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others. The last in their video hit approx 90dB
Decidedly more than 70dB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8
Water rowers peak at nearly 80.
The Concept 2 clears 100dB
edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others. The last in their video hit approx 90dB
Depends on where you measure from but yea, 70 might be low. You can talk over two dozen heavies pulling 2ks on air rowers which definitely places it under 100dB.
When you're looking for a rowing machine for your apartment, these numbers become much more important.
I ended up with a low-price water rower. I can watch TV while rowing and can still hear the TV at a mostly reasonable volume.
I ended up with a low-price water rower. I can watch TV while rowing and can still hear the TV at a mostly reasonable volume.
Thanks for the context.
We have a few Olympic rowers as part of "Pros vs Joes" on our rower. So far, the rower is still working :)
> It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and have them go at it for an hour straight.
Another reason why Concept2 is the standard is they sell reasonably priced spare parts for all of their machines going back to the first one they released in 1981 [1]
[1] https://shop.concept2.com/55-model-a
Another reason why Concept2 is the standard is they sell reasonably priced spare parts for all of their machines going back to the first one they released in 1981 [1]
[1] https://shop.concept2.com/55-model-a
I don't think I've ever seen a model A in the wild but I've seen plenty of B's still working. I have a 20yo model C that I upgraded with a new monitor and handle and it still works like it was unboxed yesterday.
Couldn't the electric variant convert the energy into electricty? With the guys in the club we many times wondered why we can't use the 8x 250W that are pulled saturday morning to power a microwave oven and everybody gets heated lunch right after the workout? Or use it to drive an AC on a hot summer day.
Exactly. I really should have stated this above. You explained it perfectly.
I'm not OP but I suspect I'm in their target demographic. Orangetheory Fitness doesn't use the Concept2 and no one cares. I've never once heard anyone at Orangetheory complain that the machine wasn't a Concept2.
I don't think the former rowers in this thread complaining about the machine are at all reflective of the public at large.
I don't think the former rowers in this thread complaining about the machine are at all reflective of the public at large.
lol you're paying $20 for a 45 min class at Orange Theory... if you're shelling out $2500 for a new piece of gym equipment, you're going to care a little bit more.
Our customers justify the high price when you consider multiple family members would use the machine. Plus, convenience has been a major factor. Not having to book a class time, find parking, etc. they rather pay more than deal with that.
I'm an OrangeTheory user and complain to my rower friends that OT doesn't use Concept2's. But it's not like I have any hope of getting OT to adopt a different product, and it's a relatively small part of an OT workout.
C2 owner here, and an ADHD sufferer as well. I've always utterly hated working out throughout my life as sitting on a machine or out running without a goal other than "work out to maintain health" bores me out of my mind. I keep it bearable right now by catching up on TV (the little bit of time I have to actually watch anything these days), but gamification I think would get me even more into it.
I'd probably be interested in this product if it were able to be tied into my machine. That said, I don't think I'd actually be interested in the part that seems to be your impetus to make your own hardware platform (the variable resistance/strength training).
I primarily use my machine for cardio, and to keep weight off, and to that end I do indeed follow an interval training approach. However, I don't play with the resistance. I simply increase my strokes per minute for certain intervals throughout the workout. I think its a bit too much of a sacrifice to throw out the quality and results of a proven platform just to implement that one set of functionality (which I personally would probably not even use).
I'd rather see the capital raised put into making the software and user experience the best it possibly could be rather than being split between the software and an actual rowing machine.
I'd probably be interested in this product if it were able to be tied into my machine. That said, I don't think I'd actually be interested in the part that seems to be your impetus to make your own hardware platform (the variable resistance/strength training).
I primarily use my machine for cardio, and to keep weight off, and to that end I do indeed follow an interval training approach. However, I don't play with the resistance. I simply increase my strokes per minute for certain intervals throughout the workout. I think its a bit too much of a sacrifice to throw out the quality and results of a proven platform just to implement that one set of functionality (which I personally would probably not even use).
I'd rather see the capital raised put into making the software and user experience the best it possibly could be rather than being split between the software and an actual rowing machine.
Thanks for the feedback and good points. The good thing is the hardware is done and we're focused exclusively on the content. We try to pump out 10-20 new workout options every 4-6 weeks.
I struggle with this too. A bit of a sidebar but hiking is by far my favorite form of cardio. Constant stimulation, changing scenery.
Strong +1 to every part of this... except that I don't even have ADHD and still find exercise mind-numbingly boring. :)
Like you, Andy, and many others, I am not a "rower" but I do use a rower at home to stay in shape with minimal time spent doing so.
I also use a C2 and am hesitant to move off of it. I use a few connected rowing apps, mostly Asensei and Kinomap. They don't deliver a Peloton level of experience but they are good enough to stay motivated and there is no vendor lock-in on the hardware side, which is important to me as this is a nascent industry and I don't believe that all entrants will be winners.
While I have no interest whatsoever in buying another hardware platform, I would gladly pay $40/mo for an amazing software platform for the C2.
Like you, Andy, and many others, I am not a "rower" but I do use a rower at home to stay in shape with minimal time spent doing so.
I also use a C2 and am hesitant to move off of it. I use a few connected rowing apps, mostly Asensei and Kinomap. They don't deliver a Peloton level of experience but they are good enough to stay motivated and there is no vendor lock-in on the hardware side, which is important to me as this is a nascent industry and I don't believe that all entrants will be winners.
While I have no interest whatsoever in buying another hardware platform, I would gladly pay $40/mo for an amazing software platform for the C2.
Have you tried connected it to something like Kinomap?
Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface?
For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
Edit: reading further, the 'moat' here appears to be electrically controlled 100lb high resistance settings. Be VERY careful with this. It's well established that most non-trained athletes will hurt themselves with this feature as it's a common trope on C2 machines. The rowing posture can be rather dangerous for high weight if misused.
For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
Edit: reading further, the 'moat' here appears to be electrically controlled 100lb high resistance settings. Be VERY careful with this. It's well established that most non-trained athletes will hurt themselves with this feature as it's a common trope on C2 machines. The rowing posture can be rather dangerous for high weight if misused.
This was my query - it’s almost impossible to replace the concept 2, as it’s the de facto standard for splits and 2k times etc.
Add to that, I recall us racing the ergs on a virtual lake on a tv as far back as 2000 or so - made doing 2ks way more interesting, as you could compete with the rest of the crew directly.
Add to that, I recall us racing the ergs on a virtual lake on a tv as far back as 2000 or so - made doing 2ks way more interesting, as you could compete with the rest of the crew directly.
also a former rower - I don't think we're the target market. If you've never touched an erg, it might not really matter whether you start on a C2 or not. And I'd guess controlling the hardware also gives them more control over the entire user experience + their own costs.
I see this as an insanely dangerous game. IME most non-rowers won't touch an erg without significant instruction/encouragement as they're technique dependent. Any that do will quickly figure out from anyone who has rowed that C2 is the standard and everything else on the market is flaming garbage.
Add to this that I could recreate this business using the C2 API in a couple weeks and suddenly have a market of everyone who owns a C2 (all the people in this thread complaining that it doesn't support their machine) along with a literal potential customer list available through C2.
Add to this that I could recreate this business using the C2 API in a couple weeks and suddenly have a market of everyone who owns a C2 (all the people in this thread complaining that it doesn't support their machine) along with a literal potential customer list available through C2.
You make a good point re: the C2 market. I mentioned up top that a huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower. Thanks for the feedback.
Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2 machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
> Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
The people who do that normally only row for a few minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to consistently develop back problems from rowing machines are people who train on them for hours a day in high school and never lift weights.
All the other back injuries in rowing are usually from either sweep rowing or from lifting.
The people who do that normally only row for a few minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to consistently develop back problems from rowing machines are people who train on them for hours a day in high school and never lift weights.
All the other back injuries in rowing are usually from either sweep rowing or from lifting.
The standard rowing machines (sit on sliding seat, feet stationary) can actually be pretty abusive to the spine, worse than scull or sweep. I've seen inexperienced people actually hurt themselves. It's mostly an issue of shock at the catch and finish. Dynamic machines such as those made by C2, Row perfect, etc are a bit better in this regard and might be a better fit for this market.
Good point. We do our best to educate users with intro rowing videos that can be found on the touchscreen. Any any time the resistance is at a high level, we use little animations that show proper form and technique.
This is a kind of thing that needs a lot of direct coaching to achieve...
There are two major rowing postures you'll find people tend to use, hips rotated forward and hips back (spine slightly arched forward/convex). Neither is really wrong but for high resistance you need to be in the hips forward position (back slightly concave) as is the technique for weight lifting in the seated row. IME most people don't actually comprehend which position they're in but using the wrong one can be catastrophic. You typically have to spend a few hours with someone ensuring they stay in the correct orientation before they really get it.
There are two major rowing postures you'll find people tend to use, hips rotated forward and hips back (spine slightly arched forward/convex). Neither is really wrong but for high resistance you need to be in the hips forward position (back slightly concave) as is the technique for weight lifting in the seated row. IME most people don't actually comprehend which position they're in but using the wrong one can be catastrophic. You typically have to spend a few hours with someone ensuring they stay in the correct orientation before they really get it.
I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182. Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new and pro users alike that's different from what's already been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience with fitness. Plus, I saw that they have instruction videos on how to row, and just like any product, they've recommended starting on the easy levels and working your way up. Anyone that tosses themselves into the most difficult setting on anything without warming up is asking for an injury, and this goes beyond rowing.
Did you create this account for this purpose?
I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear that they are the standard that this will be measured against and that they are said standard for a reason. Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with suspicion, particularly for safety critical products.
All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but those opportunities mainly exist in the software space. Focusing on hardware solely to create a moat isn't innovation, it's making landfill fodder.
Finally, I have significant experience in this area, both as an athlete and a coach. Enough that I would unmask myself very quickly if I mentioned any details. I don't coach anymore and don't have any financial interest in that either. Teaching people to use these devices safely isn't an "instructional videos" and "warm up" ordeal. This will sound silly but people generally don't know what their body is doing without tight feedback loops and their perception breaks down under stress/over the duration of a workout. We frequently had people row in front of mirrors to get things to click (another business opportunity in the computer vision space). It's painfully obvious when you go anywhere that has mixed classically trained and self trained rowers who is who.
I only raise questions because the move-fast-break-things approach is dangerous when you're breaking people. I couldn't care less about the VCs getting fleeced by this.
I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear that they are the standard that this will be measured against and that they are said standard for a reason. Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with suspicion, particularly for safety critical products.
All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but those opportunities mainly exist in the software space. Focusing on hardware solely to create a moat isn't innovation, it's making landfill fodder.
Finally, I have significant experience in this area, both as an athlete and a coach. Enough that I would unmask myself very quickly if I mentioned any details. I don't coach anymore and don't have any financial interest in that either. Teaching people to use these devices safely isn't an "instructional videos" and "warm up" ordeal. This will sound silly but people generally don't know what their body is doing without tight feedback loops and their perception breaks down under stress/over the duration of a workout. We frequently had people row in front of mirrors to get things to click (another business opportunity in the computer vision space). It's painfully obvious when you go anywhere that has mixed classically trained and self trained rowers who is who.
I only raise questions because the move-fast-break-things approach is dangerous when you're breaking people. I couldn't care less about the VCs getting fleeced by this.
> Did you create this account for this purpose?
That breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you to (1) assume good faith, and (2) not to post insinuations of astroturfing or shilling but rather to email [email protected] if you're worried about abuse. You can easily make your substantive points while sticking to these rules.
Most new users are legit and it's the wrong cultural tradeoff for this place to allow established users to harass them. I certainly appreciate your wish to protect the integrity of the threads but it needs to be done while remaining an open, welcoming community. That last thing we want is to incentivize legit new users to leave just as soon as they arrive here, and we put up with a lot of downside in order not to punish the innocent.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it's also pretty nasty to say that VCs are "getting fleeced by this" in a launch thread where you're personally interacting with the founder. It's clear that you're an expert on rowing—that's fabulous! It's fine that you have a safety critique to make about this product—you've repeated it half a dozen times now. But it's not in keeping with the spirit of this site to accuse someone of outright corruption.
If you had strong evidence of ill intent or something, it would maybe be different, but all you've got is a difference of opinion. Your opinion is an informed one, but not the only one, and please let's not do the internet slide-down where differences of opinion turn into accusations of malfeasance. That leads to the hell we're trying to avoid on this site. Users who are posting here owe the community better than that, no matter how well informed they are.
That breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you to (1) assume good faith, and (2) not to post insinuations of astroturfing or shilling but rather to email [email protected] if you're worried about abuse. You can easily make your substantive points while sticking to these rules.
Most new users are legit and it's the wrong cultural tradeoff for this place to allow established users to harass them. I certainly appreciate your wish to protect the integrity of the threads but it needs to be done while remaining an open, welcoming community. That last thing we want is to incentivize legit new users to leave just as soon as they arrive here, and we put up with a lot of downside in order not to punish the innocent.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it's also pretty nasty to say that VCs are "getting fleeced by this" in a launch thread where you're personally interacting with the founder. It's clear that you're an expert on rowing—that's fabulous! It's fine that you have a safety critique to make about this product—you've repeated it half a dozen times now. But it's not in keeping with the spirit of this site to accuse someone of outright corruption.
If you had strong evidence of ill intent or something, it would maybe be different, but all you've got is a difference of opinion. Your opinion is an informed one, but not the only one, and please let's not do the internet slide-down where differences of opinion turn into accusations of malfeasance. That leads to the hell we're trying to avoid on this site. Users who are posting here owe the community better than that, no matter how well informed they are.
I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I believe this is not an issue.
I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a machine or outside).
I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a machine or outside).
This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury at one point or another. Most women, particularly the lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain across the core and most of the guys had lower back issues at one point or another.
I'm not saying these things are death machines or anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping discs.
I'm not saying these things are death machines or anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping discs.
Most high-level rowers develop back problems, but these aren't primarily from the rowing machine, and your chances of developing the same kinds of problems while casually working out to meet your daily fitness goals are basically zero.
E.g. almost all high-level swimmers have shoulder problems, but no one who just goes for a swim a few times a week is going to injure their shoulders. Almost all baseball players have ankle problems, but no one who plays baseball with friends after work is at risk of this.
The reason rowers get back problems is basically a combination of overuse, the asymmetric load-bearing motion of sweep, and underdeveloped antagonistic muscles. Given the device and the target market, none of these issues are really at play here.
E.g. almost all high-level swimmers have shoulder problems, but no one who just goes for a swim a few times a week is going to injure their shoulders. Almost all baseball players have ankle problems, but no one who plays baseball with friends after work is at risk of this.
The reason rowers get back problems is basically a combination of overuse, the asymmetric load-bearing motion of sweep, and underdeveloped antagonistic muscles. Given the device and the target market, none of these issues are really at play here.
Interesting I rowed more than 13 years on national level up to u21 and never had any back problems until I hit a car cycling and fracturing my t6. I also don't know of any of my former friends who developed back pain. I actually always put this done to having very good core strength from rowing.
In contrast or my cycling friends (which I took up after) have back problems, in particular the ones who started when young.
Mind you this was more than 20 years ago so maybe the training regime has changed.
In contrast or my cycling friends (which I took up after) have back problems, in particular the ones who started when young.
Mind you this was more than 20 years ago so maybe the training regime has changed.
That makes sense, the issues I saw were mostly at the post collegiate/open level. There were some issues in U23s but that was somewhat rare, at least compared to alcohol inflicted injuries :)
I tend to agree, everyone knows how to ride a bike and learning to row without injuring yourself, even on a machine, takes time. I wonder what % of people with rowing machines at home, c2 or otherwise, are current/former rowers vs crossfit, regular gym goers, etc
This. As a former rower I'm biased, but also I have a C2 that sits around unused, mainly because as I've gotten older, I care less about the competitive/fitness optimization aspect of working out and more about fun.
Having tried several of the third party apps for C2, they've all suffered from 2 problems: pretty sub-par development/bugginess & wrong (or bad) content for the mass market. So much training oriented content and little on the fun/gamification side. I would pay $ for the right app, but not for a new rower. Ergatta is cool but again I wouldn't go out and buy one. When you think about the hundreds of thousands of C2s, it is a nice opportunity.
Having tried several of the third party apps for C2, they've all suffered from 2 problems: pretty sub-par development/bugginess & wrong (or bad) content for the mass market. So much training oriented content and little on the fun/gamification side. I would pay $ for the right app, but not for a new rower. Ergatta is cool but again I wouldn't go out and buy one. When you think about the hundreds of thousands of C2s, it is a nice opportunity.
fwiw i'm actually not a former rower and I just purchased a C2 after some very light research. It's the industry standard, it's relatively cheap, and ALL of the apps are specifically designed or have have seamless integration with the C2.
It is a great machine - I have one too :)
sweet. If you develop an app that integrates with the C2, I will be your first paying user to try it.
You won't be our first paying user (there are thousands of them) but we'd love you to download asensei which connect seamlessly with your Concept2 and lets you follow programs and workouts from 4x Olympians to Studio Rowing instructors.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/asensei/id1335539383
You can try a free trial with Eric Murray (one half of the famous KiwiPair) before committing to a purchase.
If anyone wants to purchase an annual membership, the code HN20 is good for 20% off until the end of the weekend.
And when you're ready to get coaching on your form/technique, or mix in strength, TRX and mobility training alongside your rowing, our new smart (app)arel coaching will give you real-time feedback on your technique and form as you're guided through structured training programs.
Our personal coaching program opened last week here: https://asensei.com/products/personal-coaching-apparel
And you can see what the coaching experience will be in the video at the foot of this page here: https://coaching.asensei.com/
Good luck to the team at Aviron with the launch. When you're ready to bring form and technique coaching to the product to ensure people are rowing safely and correctly, feel free to reach out to me to understand how you can incorporate asensei Connected Coaching in your product for your customers!
Best,
Steven CEO, asensei
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/asensei/id1335539383
You can try a free trial with Eric Murray (one half of the famous KiwiPair) before committing to a purchase.
If anyone wants to purchase an annual membership, the code HN20 is good for 20% off until the end of the weekend.
And when you're ready to get coaching on your form/technique, or mix in strength, TRX and mobility training alongside your rowing, our new smart (app)arel coaching will give you real-time feedback on your technique and form as you're guided through structured training programs.
Our personal coaching program opened last week here: https://asensei.com/products/personal-coaching-apparel
And you can see what the coaching experience will be in the video at the foot of this page here: https://coaching.asensei.com/
Good luck to the team at Aviron with the launch. When you're ready to bring form and technique coaching to the product to ensure people are rowing safely and correctly, feel free to reach out to me to understand how you can incorporate asensei Connected Coaching in your product for your customers!
Best,
Steven CEO, asensei
> C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowig for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
Most colleges also have a few Gamuts around. I actually think it would be really fun to do quarter mile sprints against real people on a Gamut-type erg with these kind of screens.
Most colleges also have a few Gamuts around. I actually think it would be really fun to do quarter mile sprints against real people on a Gamut-type erg with these kind of screens.
Hey Alex, you are right, most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2. But there are a ton of people who see the benefits of rowing but aren't interested in the C2 for various reasons. We feel we have a great alternative for those people.
Great question and ADominic answered it well.
The C2 is an amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance depending on the workout and your goals.
Why vary resistance? Most athletes learn to handle one resistance setting, the National Team standard being IIRC DF120, though anything between 100 and 120 is fine. Changing it tends to throw people for a loop.
good question. Aviron's resistance settings are used to enable high intensity interval training (HIIT) and workout variety for the average person/ fitness enthusiast. For example we have strength programs that guide you through bicep curls using the bar (with an animation that shows feet firmly planted on the ground and a low and steady motion, if you're moving too quickly Aviron will sense it and tell you to slow down your movement)
I rowed in college and have countless hours on concept 2 rowers. Outside of very specific drills I picked one weight setting and stuck with it. If I wanted to vary the difficulty I just rowed faster.
I don't think varying the weight is good for your form and it could be dangerous for your back if your form is bad. After all, you can't vary the resistance of water in a real boat (I suppose you could pour gelatin in a lake). Intensity could be varied just by changing the stroke rate.
I don't think varying the weight is good for your form and it could be dangerous for your back if your form is bad. After all, you can't vary the resistance of water in a real boat (I suppose you could pour gelatin in a lake). Intensity could be varied just by changing the stroke rate.
>> We don't target the hard core rower.
Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of the platform is that it allows one to compete against professional athletes and Olympians.
Which is it?
Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of the platform is that it allows one to compete against professional athletes and Olympians.
Which is it?
I've always wanted to see what it is like racing against some of the best athletes like Olympic boxers or MMA champions, but it doesn't mean I'm a hard core rower :)
I've seen numerous ads for Peleton; I have no idea what Concept 2 is, much less some ad on YC for yet another YC product I'm not going to buy.
In addition, I've seen at least one New York Times article (each) wringing their hands about Biden riding a Peleton and wearing a Rolex, like it's surprising that US Presidents are inordinately rich.
Anyway, I'm gonna get my fat ass back on the hydraulic rowing machine I have stored in my basement before I buy anything else from anyone.
In addition, I've seen at least one New York Times article (each) wringing their hands about Biden riding a Peleton and wearing a Rolex, like it's surprising that US Presidents are inordinately rich.
Anyway, I'm gonna get my fat ass back on the hydraulic rowing machine I have stored in my basement before I buy anything else from anyone.
Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner)
I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-)
In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist but an open version would be great (also the ones I found seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR headsets too..!
Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app would be supremely interesting to consider...
Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth: https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...
Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/
The Bluetooth communications spec from C2! https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...
I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-)
In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist but an open version would be great (also the ones I found seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR headsets too..!
Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app would be supremely interesting to consider...
Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth: https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...
Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/
The Bluetooth communications spec from C2! https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...
I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in conjunction with an Apple TV for a non-subscription immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)
You'd still need the monitor (what Concept2 calls the "PM5") to send Bluetooth data to your Apple TV, but you could fold the arm so that the monitor wouldn't be in the way of your tv.
I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive (games/immersive) would be really great.
Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build something for free that everyone can use, and maybe try to sustain this with subscriptions for extra features (competitions, etc.)
Finally, maybe the trick to building this out rapidly is to start with a web version. You'd connect your C2 to your computer via bluetooth, and then you could stream your computer to the Apple TV. A native Apple TV app would be better though, but it's more work. A web/three.js prototype is faster to put together (for me, at least -- a Unity developer might want to do this natively)
Should I try to make a launch page and if I get 1000 emails, go off and do it hah? :-)
---
Actually, an iOS app that would run on iPads (the perfect-ish format for a C2 immersive monitor) is really interesting... Maybe iOS/AppleTV is the way to go after all...
I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive (games/immersive) would be really great.
Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build something for free that everyone can use, and maybe try to sustain this with subscriptions for extra features (competitions, etc.)
Finally, maybe the trick to building this out rapidly is to start with a web version. You'd connect your C2 to your computer via bluetooth, and then you could stream your computer to the Apple TV. A native Apple TV app would be better though, but it's more work. A web/three.js prototype is faster to put together (for me, at least -- a Unity developer might want to do this natively)
Should I try to make a launch page and if I get 1000 emails, go off and do it hah? :-)
---
Actually, an iOS app that would run on iPads (the perfect-ish format for a C2 immersive monitor) is really interesting... Maybe iOS/AppleTV is the way to go after all...
I have my C2 in a room with a big TV on the wall but, yeah, practically speaking something that interfaces with an iPad app probably makes more sense in general. Rigging up an iPad stand for a C2 would be pretty trivial--and may well already exist.
If I were seriously looking at something like this as a business, I'd probably want to do a non-subscription offering that let you row down the Charles and other such rivers in an immersive and somewhat randomized environment but tried to get people to pay for real P2P interactions--which a lot would.
Not an actual interest of mine to do but I think someone could retrofit a much better virtual experience on a C2 than currently exists that people would pay good money for.
If I were seriously looking at something like this as a business, I'd probably want to do a non-subscription offering that let you row down the Charles and other such rivers in an immersive and somewhat randomized environment but tried to get people to pay for real P2P interactions--which a lot would.
Not an actual interest of mine to do but I think someone could retrofit a much better virtual experience on a C2 than currently exists that people would pay good money for.
Btw, Web Bluetooth is not only supported by Chrome, but also by Edge, Samsung Internet and others. More on supported browsers on https://caniuse.com/?search=web%20bluetooth
The source for the PM5 / Bluetooth integration is here: https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/rowing-monitor/
The source for the PM5 / Bluetooth integration is here: https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/rowing-monitor/
C2 is really an engineering masterpiece. Simple, works forever, cheap replaceable parts, anyone can do the maintenance after watching a YouTube vid.
Also super cool that you can upgrade the display/head unit w/o having to get a new rower.
It's also significantly cheaper than this machine and has exceptionally high re-sale value.
Also super cool that you can upgrade the display/head unit w/o having to get a new rower.
It's also significantly cheaper than this machine and has exceptionally high re-sale value.
You are 100% right, the C2 is a tank. I have one too.
But the C2 might not be right for everyone. I think we might be able to get more butts on rowers if we can make the experience more enjoyable for those who aren't motivated by the C2 and its current content.
The C2 is the best machine I've ever purchased. Ive got 3.6 million lifetime meters on mine, and the most I've ever done to maintain it is wipe down the rail/rollers and put some 3-1 oil on the chain.
I am very impressed with what you did, and thank you for sharing the back stories about dealing with manufacturers and the real life pains of troubleshooting customers.
This is real, tough entrepreneurship, and I am very surprised by the number of implied criticisms about how not perfect your product, price, positioning...
The number of issues you solved already, the fact you have a happy installed based is impressive. Further iterations will make it even better, feels like you've done the hardest part.... Congrats.
This is real, tough entrepreneurship, and I am very surprised by the number of implied criticisms about how not perfect your product, price, positioning...
The number of issues you solved already, the fact you have a happy installed based is impressive. Further iterations will make it even better, feels like you've done the hardest part.... Congrats.
Came to say the same thing. Congratulations for persevering in the face of lots of frustrations, and coming out with a winner of a product. I know how much of a PIA getting physical products designed, manufactured and shipped is. Sounds like you have a lot of happy customers for the segment you're targeting.
Many thanks!!! It has been a long and painful journey, but also extremely rewarding.
Thank you!!! I appreciate you taking the time to write this. Tough crowd but they make some valid points I can learn from.
I love the idea and I wish you the best of luck.
I was on crew in college and "form" is always one of the most important things. I feel like a short intro on how to row - at least so as not to hurt yourself - is probably in order. I can't tell you how many times I've been to the gym where there is a concept2 and watch probably 9 out of 10 people just hack away at if its a chainsaw.
NB: After reading this I watched a YouTube video and the ad was for a competitor product. That always weirds me out.
I was on crew in college and "form" is always one of the most important things. I feel like a short intro on how to row - at least so as not to hurt yourself - is probably in order. I can't tell you how many times I've been to the gym where there is a concept2 and watch probably 9 out of 10 people just hack away at if its a chainsaw.
NB: After reading this I watched a YouTube video and the ad was for a competitor product. That always weirds me out.
Agree 100%. I see exactly the same thing. It's a recipe for lower back injury if form isn't good, and you really do need a bit of instruction to do it properly.
I also 100% agree. We have 2 learn how to row videos on the rower and provide live feedback during workout programs to help users workout properly and correct their form. I'm sure there are other things we can do. Thanks for commenting!
Andy - I posted further up the thread and don't want to hijaack yours, but when you're ready to introduce real-time form coaching to your customers, reach out to me at asensei.
Our (app)arel technology and connected coaching platform allows you to provide real-time coaching and correction on technique and form (in any sport) but specifically in rowing.
Good luck with the launch! Founder to founder, it's no small feat bringing a hardware product to market!
Our (app)arel technology and connected coaching platform allows you to provide real-time coaching and correction on technique and form (in any sport) but specifically in rowing.
Good luck with the launch! Founder to founder, it's no small feat bringing a hardware product to market!
Hey Steven!
I'm familiar with you guys and actually recommended you in one of the posts. Love what you are doing. We are both helping more people enjoy the benefits of rowing.
I have a C2 and a Wahoo Kickr.
I think you are targeting the wrong market if you intend to build a machine.
As a cyclist, the market sweet spot to me is the ability to set a wattage on a rower and have the machine automatically adjust the resistance so that I can hit the correct wattage/hour.
On the bike, holding a steady cadence and having the machine adjust the resistance so I can hit whatever % of FTP I'm wanting is the killer feature the C2 is missing.
All the other comments referencing injuries/etc are reflective of the need to make an ERG that allows you to just say "do 25 strokes/min" and if you blow up or cant hold the pace, drop the target wattage. It's harder to hurt yourself if the machine is setting the difficulty based on your pace and putting some sane max limits in.
I think you are targeting the wrong market if you intend to build a machine.
As a cyclist, the market sweet spot to me is the ability to set a wattage on a rower and have the machine automatically adjust the resistance so that I can hit the correct wattage/hour.
On the bike, holding a steady cadence and having the machine adjust the resistance so I can hit whatever % of FTP I'm wanting is the killer feature the C2 is missing.
All the other comments referencing injuries/etc are reflective of the need to make an ERG that allows you to just say "do 25 strokes/min" and if you blow up or cant hold the pace, drop the target wattage. It's harder to hurt yourself if the machine is setting the difficulty based on your pace and putting some sane max limits in.
I have a tacx bike, no rower at the moment, but I get on them every time I'm at the gym.
I think the smart bike and rower are very different in terms of what you'd do with them. In contrast to a smart bike a rower who constantly adjusts is much harder to use. In fact on low resistance rowers are almost impossible to use. It's also much easier than on the bike to row at a specific wattage without ever adjusting the resistance (mind you that requires some technique).
I think the smart bike and rower are very different in terms of what you'd do with them. In contrast to a smart bike a rower who constantly adjusts is much harder to use. In fact on low resistance rowers are almost impossible to use. It's also much easier than on the bike to row at a specific wattage without ever adjusting the resistance (mind you that requires some technique).
Once you get the "feel" doing wattage is pretty easy on a static trainer if you change gears or your pedal stroke rate. That amount of practice and effort to learn when you only want to spend 10-20 minutes working out is beyond a beginner. Aviron's whole website is built around games and varied resistance. Having the rower do all the thinking for the user ala zwift workouts on a tacx is attractive.
I don't understand why pelotons are popular when a tacx/wahoo/etc are lightyears ahead in feel and blunting the peaks of "pain" from beginner mistakes. The more advanced ERGs that adjust are super forgiving and the same would be for rowing, avoiding pulling too much lbf and having your arms hurt for weeks = avoiding the workouts.
People doing HIIT cardio usually blow up if they put out 10% more wattage for a minute or two than their FTP. If a machine makes it so you can workout "forever" and simplifies the interface of games/workouts so users only need to focus on a single metric for game while adjusting all the others, it would be a killer feature.
I don't understand why pelotons are popular when a tacx/wahoo/etc are lightyears ahead in feel and blunting the peaks of "pain" from beginner mistakes. The more advanced ERGs that adjust are super forgiving and the same would be for rowing, avoiding pulling too much lbf and having your arms hurt for weeks = avoiding the workouts.
People doing HIIT cardio usually blow up if they put out 10% more wattage for a minute or two than their FTP. If a machine makes it so you can workout "forever" and simplifies the interface of games/workouts so users only need to focus on a single metric for game while adjusting all the others, it would be a killer feature.
Peleton is popular because it's going for a very different market. Those are people who do spinning classes, which has only a very small overlap with spinning classes.
In particular they don't really look for the same things that someone who buys a smartbike is looking for. Also I would add that in terms of build quality, spinning bikes are much better IMO than tacx or wahoo.
A bit of a tangent, but it's a shame that Kettler bikes never became popular, their hardware is top-notch (proper cycling bar, campagnolo ergopower grips), but they never implemented ANT or bluetoothsmart so were not compatible with Zwift and instead tried to push their own platform.
In particular they don't really look for the same things that someone who buys a smartbike is looking for. Also I would add that in terms of build quality, spinning bikes are much better IMO than tacx or wahoo.
A bit of a tangent, but it's a shame that Kettler bikes never became popular, their hardware is top-notch (proper cycling bar, campagnolo ergopower grips), but they never implemented ANT or bluetoothsmart so were not compatible with Zwift and instead tried to push their own platform.
Thanks for the feedback, that's actually a great idea and something I think we would consider implementing in a future release.
I always felt a large missing aspect was the realism as it relates to water. In particular, on a machine you neither feather nor feel variable resistance due to how vertical your blade is. There are a lot of specific details that the machine doesn't capture that I think make the actual experience on the water much more thoughtful than just pulling as hard and fast as you can.
You are 100% right. We try our best to create an experience that is as similar to rowing on water as possible, but of course it won't be the same. But most people who purchase our rower aren't looking for a realistic experience, they want an amazing workout that's fun more than anything.
With variable electronic resistance and a rotating handle it should be possible, it should be possible in theory. It's definitely not something everyone is going for. I think you could improve form a lot just by helping people make sure their getting full extension and going through the motions in the correct order.
That makes sense. Maybe at some point we can use the camera on the screen to analyze the users form. Thanks for the feedback.
I wish you great success.
That said, be aware that true rowers hate some of this stuff because you can actually hurt people through various kinds of repetitive motion injuries if you don't teach, promote and highlight proper technique. The people you have on video yanking on the handle are a sure-bet formula for getting hurt. Which means you could be looking at one ore more lawsuits in the future.
It's the same with lifting.
Context: Rower for quite some time, currently own and have owned Concept 2 machines for years. Owned a range or rowing shells for years. Also strength training.
That said, be aware that true rowers hate some of this stuff because you can actually hurt people through various kinds of repetitive motion injuries if you don't teach, promote and highlight proper technique. The people you have on video yanking on the handle are a sure-bet formula for getting hurt. Which means you could be looking at one ore more lawsuits in the future.
It's the same with lifting.
Context: Rower for quite some time, currently own and have owned Concept 2 machines for years. Owned a range or rowing shells for years. Also strength training.
Thank you and I completely agree. I gave my parents a rower and making sure they use proper form and technique were critical. We continue to work on ways to prevent injuries.
When I first looked at your website I wondered if you were a spin-off / subsidiary of Peloton. The whole design / feel feels identical to me. How close can the "look and feel" of two websites be nowadays before you get in trouble? (genuine question)
Honestly, I would consider trying to get your own, more independent look+feel, even if you by coincidence ended up with your landing page looking like Peloton.
Honestly, I would consider trying to get your own, more independent look+feel, even if you by coincidence ended up with your landing page looking like Peloton.
As a young fitness company i'll take the comparison to Peloton as a compliment. I see what you mean and to your point branding and differentiating will become a higher priority when we can afford to do so.
They're not comparing your company to Peloton -- they're comparing your website, which appears to be "influenced" by the Peloton site. The color scheme is pretty much identical. I don't think it's meant as a compliment as anyone could hijack some CSS from a competing website.
Makes sense. We do plan on revamping out website in the near future and will keep this in mind.
Awesome and inspiring story.
I personally can't see paying a subscription for an exercise machine though. Why can't I just buy something and own it without needing to provide recurring monthly revenue to the company who sold me the thing? Rowing is boring, but I solved that for myself with a pair of headphones and a podcast. I have a hard time imagining rowing based games being as interesting (though I did like the concept of your pros versus Joe's).
All said, obviously people do pay subscriptions for stuff like this so best of luck to you and congratulations on your success!
I personally can't see paying a subscription for an exercise machine though. Why can't I just buy something and own it without needing to provide recurring monthly revenue to the company who sold me the thing? Rowing is boring, but I solved that for myself with a pair of headphones and a podcast. I have a hard time imagining rowing based games being as interesting (though I did like the concept of your pros versus Joe's).
All said, obviously people do pay subscriptions for stuff like this so best of luck to you and congratulations on your success!
Thank you! Reoccurring revenue is just the name of the game now :)
I subscribe to peloton but can’t see myself subscribing to this.
I subscribe to peloton because I get new content every single day, live rides and even things like T-shirt’s shipped to me when I hit milestones. This feels like a membership but without any particular level of membership benefits.
I’m sure you will find a market though and hope you are hugely successful!
I subscribe to peloton because I get new content every single day, live rides and even things like T-shirt’s shipped to me when I hit milestones. This feels like a membership but without any particular level of membership benefits.
I’m sure you will find a market though and hope you are hugely successful!
I can understand that. When Peloton first came out they were releasing content as often as we are now. Over time I'm sure we will get better. Thank you!
I gotta say, rowing had zero appeal for me until I got into HIIT (F45).
Even though I have been using it for three years, I would still say it is the most punishing/rewarding piece of equipment at my gym, and probably the only one that is still capable of leaving me (literally) breathless.
I've been thinking about getting a rowing machine for home just for some quick two-minute bursts of cardio to break up my sitting, so this might be a worthwhile purchase when I can budget it in. Also my wife has been looking to buy a Peloton so maybe I can convince her to get this instead. :)
Even though I have been using it for three years, I would still say it is the most punishing/rewarding piece of equipment at my gym, and probably the only one that is still capable of leaving me (literally) breathless.
I've been thinking about getting a rowing machine for home just for some quick two-minute bursts of cardio to break up my sitting, so this might be a worthwhile purchase when I can budget it in. Also my wife has been looking to buy a Peloton so maybe I can convince her to get this instead. :)
Your experience really speaks to our target demo :) and you're not wrong - it is definitely punishing (good word to describe it!) which is why we really focused (and continue to focus) on making our content fun and engaging.
Get your stuff working on Concept IIs as well as your own ergometers. Just do it. Seriously. If your subscription business depends on selling your customers your own ergometer first, you'll have a very steep barrier between you and success.
Recent models of the C2 monitor have connectivity features.
There's an opportunity for remote-community features for indoor rowing like what Zwift offers for biking. And you won't have to deal with shipping heavy stuff to every customer before they subscribe.
Recent models of the C2 monitor have connectivity features.
There's an opportunity for remote-community features for indoor rowing like what Zwift offers for biking. And you won't have to deal with shipping heavy stuff to every customer before they subscribe.
A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower instead of just an app or working with any existing machines.
I can see why the ECR piece is a handy input for the games, but having tried every connected rowing app under the sun, I think what is missing in this space is compelling content and compelling software on the same platform. As a fellow tech guy/non-rower who just wants to stay in shape, it's hard for me to see how success here hinges on ECR rather than the software and content. But I also understand you've already made a large bet on this, and I hope it pays off for you.
Thanks! There are a variety of other reasons we decided to make our own rower. So far I'm happy with our decision :)
I'm not part of the target demographic, but I will say this looks compelling to me. If Peloton can do it for cycling, I do not see the reason you cannot do it for rowing.
Although a pain point kind of seems obvious, Peloton is successful because cycling by itself is "approachable". Anyone can hop on a bike and just start cycling, doesn't matter on your gender, weight, or conditioning.
While rowing, eh.. You said it yourself, people avoid it in gyms like the plague. Don't get me wrong, I love rowing for the same reasons you do, rowing is the activity I do the most during the week.
It's just that a lot of people do not like rowing, or/and are scared of it, and the biggest "problem", it is hard, way harder than anything else in the gym.
So it seems that you are naturally blocked with a certain ceiling as to how much you can grow and where. While you are establishing a moat yourself to keep competitors away, the bigger question is how is the customer going to cross the "rowing moat" to even try your product?
Although a pain point kind of seems obvious, Peloton is successful because cycling by itself is "approachable". Anyone can hop on a bike and just start cycling, doesn't matter on your gender, weight, or conditioning.
While rowing, eh.. You said it yourself, people avoid it in gyms like the plague. Don't get me wrong, I love rowing for the same reasons you do, rowing is the activity I do the most during the week.
It's just that a lot of people do not like rowing, or/and are scared of it, and the biggest "problem", it is hard, way harder than anything else in the gym.
So it seems that you are naturally blocked with a certain ceiling as to how much you can grow and where. While you are establishing a moat yourself to keep competitors away, the bigger question is how is the customer going to cross the "rowing moat" to even try your product?
Great point. I feel things are changing. Thanks to CrossFit, Orange Theory, F45, etc. rowing is becoming more popular. 5 years ago there weren't many rowing studio like there are spinning classes. Now you have chains like RowHouse with 300 locations.
I have a Concept 2 -- how can I incorportate your product into my workout?
A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower.
Also concept2 owner. I think it's a miss not having some offering for existing rowers--these are not cheap devices, most people love their current one, and concept2's build quality has created a huge moat for them.
Better to compete on software/integration instead of hardware as it makes your offering a niche player in an already niche market.
Better to compete on software/integration instead of hardware as it makes your offering a niche player in an already niche market.
Good point. I think creating a solution that ties into existing rowers like the C2 isn't out of the question in the future.
I am a rower. Mainly doubles and quads. So, not sweep oar.
Most rowing machines in gyms are set too "hard" water resistance does not mimic the setting most people use.
There is a rotational aspect in two planes no rowing machine i use mimics: the rotation around the oar gate, an arc of about 120 degrees, as you move forward and backwards, and the throttle twist of feathering the oars.
These limit the utility of dry rowing to me.
I've rowed in a static tank and its more "real" because your push is against water (you basically circulate water in a tank) and you get both feathering, and rowlock plane rotations
(In real rowing, your arm sweeps out a circular arc of the radius from the rowlock to your hands)
Most rowing machines in gyms are set too "hard" water resistance does not mimic the setting most people use.
There is a rotational aspect in two planes no rowing machine i use mimics: the rotation around the oar gate, an arc of about 120 degrees, as you move forward and backwards, and the throttle twist of feathering the oars.
These limit the utility of dry rowing to me.
I've rowed in a static tank and its more "real" because your push is against water (you basically circulate water in a tank) and you get both feathering, and rowlock plane rotations
(In real rowing, your arm sweeps out a circular arc of the radius from the rowlock to your hands)
You are 100% right, getting that on the water feel is very hard. For this reason and others, we put a fun and engaging experience + amazing workout > being as realistic as possible.
As former competitive rower, can’t see switching to anything but C2, but I like the idea to expand the market to more. My biggest concern is that it tends to take 4-6 weeks to get comfortable with posture and just sitting on the machine for extended periods (the unfortunate challenge of the machine engaging so many muscles). For novices, this valley of death is where so many give up. For example, coming back in the fall always started with awkwardly slow pieces to get the “feel” again. Figure out how to make this fun, and I am a believer you can spread the sport!
Thanks for the support! Exactly, we aren't going after the hard core crowd. We feel rowing is amazing and we can get more butts of seats by making the experience more enjoyable.
Sounds cool.
Can I sum it up as Aviron is the peloton of the community and Hydrow is the Zwift? The difference being Zwift caters to people who are already vested and more hardcore in some ways where as peloton is the general public who want to try and get a quick good workout?
Also - if you are following the peloton model - how are you going to build out the celebrity following for your athletes? I think that is one of the key components of why people buy in.
Product pricing - are you going lower cost than peloton as you could be considered a substitute product.
Good luck on the journey!
Can I sum it up as Aviron is the peloton of the community and Hydrow is the Zwift? The difference being Zwift caters to people who are already vested and more hardcore in some ways where as peloton is the general public who want to try and get a quick good workout?
Also - if you are following the peloton model - how are you going to build out the celebrity following for your athletes? I think that is one of the key components of why people buy in.
Product pricing - are you going lower cost than peloton as you could be considered a substitute product.
Good luck on the journey!
Also please don't follow pelotons somewhat annoying business model and force people to shell out a lot for the hardware product and continue to force them on high monthlies.
Am interested in your product though - quick high intensity workout.
Am interested in your product though - quick high intensity workout.
I would reverse the two. Hydrow is closer to peloton. They both have instructor led classes. Our content is focused around shorter, intense workouts, in the form of video games, live races, and strength programs. Neither Hydrow or Aviron cater to the avid rower.
Our team is much smaller than you think and so celebrity following isn't on the roadmap yet - but hopefully one day!
We are slightly less expensive than Peloton now, but I wouldn't say we are their substitute. They are best in class when it comes to live instructors. We want to be best in class when it comes to high intensity video games, races, and other similar content.
Our team is much smaller than you think and so celebrity following isn't on the roadmap yet - but hopefully one day!
We are slightly less expensive than Peloton now, but I wouldn't say we are their substitute. They are best in class when it comes to live instructors. We want to be best in class when it comes to high intensity video games, races, and other similar content.
Got it. Zwift it is. I would say zwift is pretty fun but after awhile its the group events that keep me engaged and give me the extra boost.
If you're still building out the roadmap put a little bit of resources (or thought spent) around the ability to add in live instructor classes further on down the line. That way you can bring that market along with you instead of the situation that Peleton and Zwift have that is an either or situation (different hardware considerations there, but annoying you are locked into one option). Different model and capital allocations - but worth considering.
Best of luck!
If you're still building out the roadmap put a little bit of resources (or thought spent) around the ability to add in live instructor classes further on down the line. That way you can bring that market along with you instead of the situation that Peleton and Zwift have that is an either or situation (different hardware considerations there, but annoying you are locked into one option). Different model and capital allocations - but worth considering.
Best of luck!
I’m an older person who used to work out regularly in a gym before Covid. Since lockdown, I have spent a fair amount of money on exercise equipment for my home—dumbbells, elastic bands, and, especially, a cable crossover machine that cost a couple of thousand dollars. Even though I have no experience with rowing or rowing machines, your product is the sort of thing I might have considered buying last spring.
Here’s my initial, superficial reaction. The video on your site shows people using the machine not only for cardio but also for resistance training. But as near as I can tell, the resistance training is possible in only one direction: bicep curls but not tricep extensions, pulling for the back but not pushing for the chest. The shot of the man doing dips is not very convincing, as that move can be done perfectly well without your machine, and it can’t be done while looking at the screen.
I can imagine buying a cardio-only machine that doesn’t try to provide a strength workout. But your video also seems to promote the muscle-building elements while going only halfway. For me, at least, that is a bit of a turnoff.
Here’s my initial, superficial reaction. The video on your site shows people using the machine not only for cardio but also for resistance training. But as near as I can tell, the resistance training is possible in only one direction: bicep curls but not tricep extensions, pulling for the back but not pushing for the chest. The shot of the man doing dips is not very convincing, as that move can be done perfectly well without your machine, and it can’t be done while looking at the screen.
I can imagine buying a cardio-only machine that doesn’t try to provide a strength workout. But your video also seems to promote the muscle-building elements while going only halfway. For me, at least, that is a bit of a turnoff.
Thanks for the feedback! Looks like we have to make improvements in our marketing.
There are a variety of exercises that utilize the rower and are guided by instructions on the screen. Some involve the rower like bicep curls and tricep extensions (requires standing up and bending forward) and some don't like push-ups and dips.
We decided to incorporate some exercises outside of rowing because customers requested it. We are happy we did because the feedback has been great.
There are a variety of exercises that utilize the rower and are guided by instructions on the screen. Some involve the rower like bicep curls and tricep extensions (requires standing up and bending forward) and some don't like push-ups and dips.
We decided to incorporate some exercises outside of rowing because customers requested it. We are happy we did because the feedback has been great.
Given that you're competing with Peloton (or at least in the same general market), how do you plan to respond to the rumored Peloton Rower? https://www.pelobuddy.com/peloton-rower
It's going to be hard to position yourself as the Peloton for Rowing when Peloton actually has a Peloton for Rowing.
It's going to be hard to position yourself as the Peloton for Rowing when Peloton actually has a Peloton for Rowing.
We usually try not to position ourselves as the Peloton for rowing but it made sense here for people to quickly understand what we do.
I think Peloton adding a rower is a great thing, it is going to bring more awareness to the benefits of rowing. We differentiate ourselves from Peloton through out content. While they are best in class at instructor led workouts, we aim to be best in class at high intensity and competitive video games, races, and strength programs. There is certainly going to be some overlap.
I think Peloton adding a rower is a great thing, it is going to bring more awareness to the benefits of rowing. We differentiate ourselves from Peloton through out content. While they are best in class at instructor led workouts, we aim to be best in class at high intensity and competitive video games, races, and strength programs. There is certainly going to be some overlap.
Hi - congrats on your amazing looking product and experience!
I just purchased an Ergatta 2 weeks ago, waiting for delivery. In what circumstances would I want your product instead of the Ergatta?
Background: I'm an avid peloton user for 3 years now, (also just picked up the tempo.fit for guided lifting) and am looking to mix in intense rowing sessions. The Ergatta looks compelling for gamified sessions with competition.
Change my mind?
I just purchased an Ergatta 2 weeks ago, waiting for delivery. In what circumstances would I want your product instead of the Ergatta?
Background: I'm an avid peloton user for 3 years now, (also just picked up the tempo.fit for guided lifting) and am looking to mix in intense rowing sessions. The Ergatta looks compelling for gamified sessions with competition.
Change my mind?
ha ha great question! Ergatta is a great product. They also offer some versions of competitive workouts. Where Aviron differs is our machines are built with dual magnetic and air resistance, this allows our machines to go to much higher resistance levels. For example, our strength programs will guide you through bicep curls and back rows where you are “lifting” 50+ Lbs. with each pull. A water rower on the other hand does not have variable resistance settings.
Aviron also incorporates fully animated video games that include being chased by zombies and throw backs to old school favorites like pong and brick breaker. If you're interested we have a long-ish content video that goes into depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2PVuK73Xg
I have health issues and I try to correlate cause and effect.
I use a rower several times a day, it sits next to my desk. One thing I would love is an API that enables download of key stats like watts, times, etc.
I value raw data over slick apps. I have my own data sources for heart rate, glucose and a few other things. It would be great to integrate this into my home brew system.
Dexcom has a decent API for instance https://developer.dexcom.com
Or start a line of exercise/health equipment that features integrations with fitness watches, indoor air quality monitors(VOC's), blood pressure, glucose, blood oxygen, weather(smog, pollen) etc etc.
It should help answer questions like Does my blood pressure/glucose behave different when: * row for 10 minutes and generate _x_ watts * pollen is high, smog is dense * use a standing desk vs sitting
So far it seems that busting out 10 minutes on a rower seems to have positive effects for at least 24hrs unlike moderate running. I would love to get the actual data on a chart.
I use a rower several times a day, it sits next to my desk. One thing I would love is an API that enables download of key stats like watts, times, etc.
I value raw data over slick apps. I have my own data sources for heart rate, glucose and a few other things. It would be great to integrate this into my home brew system.
Dexcom has a decent API for instance https://developer.dexcom.com
Or start a line of exercise/health equipment that features integrations with fitness watches, indoor air quality monitors(VOC's), blood pressure, glucose, blood oxygen, weather(smog, pollen) etc etc.
It should help answer questions like Does my blood pressure/glucose behave different when: * row for 10 minutes and generate _x_ watts * pollen is high, smog is dense * use a standing desk vs sitting
So far it seems that busting out 10 minutes on a rower seems to have positive effects for at least 24hrs unlike moderate running. I would love to get the actual data on a chart.
I agree. One of the biggest challenges we have is integrating to other apps and products. Even getting the Apple or Garmin watch to integrate is difficult because of their limited/closed ecosystem.
The latest Garmin wearable devices support the ANT+ FE-C profile so if you implement that then it should just work. There's no need to specifically integrate with their closed ecosystem.
hmm. Very true. Thanks for the idea.
I'm really glad to see this product. I'm also more tech than fitness, but I try to get in a quick row or treadmill run every day.
In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine" seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P
I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad and the last few weeks I've been using Apple Fitness+, but the select is really limited. Also, like all Apple Fitness+ programs, there is currently no feedback between what I'm doing and what the program is asking/pushing me to do, which is disappointing.
I probably won't purchase your product in the near future, given that I have a semi-working solution today. But I will encourage other folks to check it out if they are in the market for a rowing machine. And if you decide to go pursue a strictly software/services solution, I absolutely would run your programs on my iPad while I row on my Concept 2 :)
In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine" seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P
I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad and the last few weeks I've been using Apple Fitness+, but the select is really limited. Also, like all Apple Fitness+ programs, there is currently no feedback between what I'm doing and what the program is asking/pushing me to do, which is disappointing.
I probably won't purchase your product in the near future, given that I have a semi-working solution today. But I will encourage other folks to check it out if they are in the market for a rowing machine. And if you decide to go pursue a strictly software/services solution, I absolutely would run your programs on my iPad while I row on my Concept 2 :)
Thanks! I agree that a C2 + Ipad setup might be all that's needed for a lot of people to stay motivated. For me, I needed more.
Oh, to be clear... I don't think my setup is ideal. I just don't think I could justify the additional purchase of your product today... maybe in a few years.
But if you decided to change up your business model and offer the service such that I could run it in my iPad + C2, I am pretty sure you'd have me as a monthly subscriber. The programs you offer are much more inline with what I'm looking for.
Congratulations on the success you've had so far. Good luck!
But if you decided to change up your business model and offer the service such that I could run it in my iPad + C2, I am pretty sure you'd have me as a monthly subscriber. The programs you offer are much more inline with what I'm looking for.
Congratulations on the success you've had so far. Good luck!
Thank you!
NordicTrac RW600 for half the price and no recurring membership.
https://www.nordictrack.com/rowing-machines/rw600
Many people fail to realize it does not have to be expensive to get "fit". (north) Americans have the bad habit of buying expensive equipment long before it's required for their task / sport, opting to spend their way into an image before earning their way by doing.
To paint an analogy, people have bought >$1000 sport bicycles they ride a few times a year, effectively lowering their resistance and making the work out they need ~easier~ (physically) than it otherwise would have been.
Of course, it's not my place to dictate how people choose to spend their money, but marketing is not helping people who think they have to buy an expensive piece of equipment, as a pre-requisitite, to achieve a goal.
https://www.nordictrack.com/rowing-machines/rw600
Many people fail to realize it does not have to be expensive to get "fit". (north) Americans have the bad habit of buying expensive equipment long before it's required for their task / sport, opting to spend their way into an image before earning their way by doing.
To paint an analogy, people have bought >$1000 sport bicycles they ride a few times a year, effectively lowering their resistance and making the work out they need ~easier~ (physically) than it otherwise would have been.
Of course, it's not my place to dictate how people choose to spend their money, but marketing is not helping people who think they have to buy an expensive piece of equipment, as a pre-requisitite, to achieve a goal.
Great point. I will add that RW600 does require a reoccurring membership for $468/yr after the first year.
Cool product, congrats on the early success. My question: If the goal is HIIT or shorter workouts, why a rowing machine? Have you considered a design that incorporates pushing exercises as well like Concept2's Dyno - https://www.concept2.com/service/dyno ?
That's a really interesting looking machine - thanks for sharing. We chose the rower because it is one of the best full body workout machines and is something most people are somewhat familiar with thanks to the Olympics, CrossFit, Orange Theory, etc.
Rowing is my favorite form of excercise, so this is an exciting product. I'm always telling myself I'll get a Concept2 when I can afford one (right now I have a cobbled together combination of two discount machines.) Can you compare your product to C2's offering? Exciting to see innovation in the rowing space-it feels pretty monopolized right now.
Great question. Like many people in the thread have already mentioned the C2 is a great, solid product. Where we feel we are different is the focus on high intensity interval training (HIIT)- our content (fully animated video games, races against olympians or the Aviron community and guided strength programs) works along with the resistance of the machine to provide a solid option for at home HIIT. If you're looking for visuals, competition, and variety Aviron can be a good fit.
I might be the target market for this.
I have a Concept 2 at a house I go to a couple times a year for up to a month each time. My normal cardio is a standard treadmill at the gym, and I bought the C2 because a serious treadmill wouldn’t work at that location.
It has been really hard to get into the rowing thing. I’ve never done crew so there’s no external context for me. I find it’s a great way to get the heart rate up in a short time, but totally lacks the zone-out meditative quality of the treadmill.
If there were a rowing machine that had some built in motivator that would make me go use it every day for more than a few minutes at a time, and it shipped worldwide, I’d seriously consider it for my next country place.
My motivation problems notwithstanding, I will say I think the Concept 2 is a great machine and absolutely feels like it’s worth the price. The fact I’d find the same machine in lots of gyms would be a plus if I could get over the hump. So fitness-center ubiquity should also be a goal I think.
I have a Concept 2 at a house I go to a couple times a year for up to a month each time. My normal cardio is a standard treadmill at the gym, and I bought the C2 because a serious treadmill wouldn’t work at that location.
It has been really hard to get into the rowing thing. I’ve never done crew so there’s no external context for me. I find it’s a great way to get the heart rate up in a short time, but totally lacks the zone-out meditative quality of the treadmill.
If there were a rowing machine that had some built in motivator that would make me go use it every day for more than a few minutes at a time, and it shipped worldwide, I’d seriously consider it for my next country place.
My motivation problems notwithstanding, I will say I think the Concept 2 is a great machine and absolutely feels like it’s worth the price. The fact I’d find the same machine in lots of gyms would be a plus if I could get over the hump. So fitness-center ubiquity should also be a goal I think.
What you're describing really resonates with me - I knew it was a good workout but staying on for any length of time is challenging if you're not a "rower". The experience the content provides is what keeps our customers getting back on the machine every day and why we took the direction we did with Aviron. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Totally get why you built one to meet your needs, but any thoughts on opening the app up? That is where the gap in the market is. I have a Water Rower, so I won't be buying your hardware (sorry), but if you open the app up I would be interested to try. I understand some of your workouts won't work without the resistance control, but there is a market out there for a good app. Since you already have one, might be a reasonable thing to look at. Although if all of the workouts need the resistance, than that could be a non started.
Looks super cool though. And I wish you luck. If I were in the market for a rower, and not already have one mostly collecting dust, it would be something I would definitely look hard at.
Looks super cool though. And I wish you luck. If I were in the market for a rower, and not already have one mostly collecting dust, it would be something I would definitely look hard at.
Apple is currently the only company in the fitness world that can afford to force hardware and software coupling. You are not Apple.
Peloton, which you compare yourself to, allows me to use my Life Fitness bike with their platform, and they even charge me about 70% less than they charge their own bike buyers.
Hopefully this will soon sink in, there is a huge market of people who already invested thousands in their workout gear, and all they need is your platform. Plus its always interesting to hear how usable the hardware is, if I stop paying or if your platform goes offline. Every company handles this a bit differently
Peloton, which you compare yourself to, allows me to use my Life Fitness bike with their platform, and they even charge me about 70% less than they charge their own bike buyers.
Hopefully this will soon sink in, there is a huge market of people who already invested thousands in their workout gear, and all they need is your platform. Plus its always interesting to hear how usable the hardware is, if I stop paying or if your platform goes offline. Every company handles this a bit differently
Was this always the case for Peloton though? They could expand to allow their platform to work on other equipment later but there might be enough early adopters to support hardware sales to start. Also, bikes are far more common first purchases for home exercise equipment so there are probably many more bikes collecting dust at home than rowing machines
You make some good points. A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower instead of just an app or working with any rower.
And yet so many rowers are saying that the electronically-controlled resistance doesn't really make sense in a rower, which should not be changing the resistance all the time.
I think this is a great and fantastic idea; it's something I imagine a lot of Crossfit folks would be very willing to buy, especially in a pandemic. And it's a target market with money and motivation! I definitely prefer this over biking.
Exactly our target. The competitive folks who are lacking HIIT workout options at home.. like you said especially with the pandemic. Thanks!
The C2 is the Toyota Camry of rowers. This seems to me to need an application of Rule 39 of Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design.
39. (alternate formulation) The three keys to keeping a new human space program affordable and on schedule:
1) No new launch vehicles.
2) No new launch vehicles.
3) Whatever you do, don't develop any new launch vehicles.
The same would supposedly apply to Peloton, and yet they're successful beyond belief...
In a WeWork kind of way. They've raised $1B in funding.
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/peloton-interactive/...
But they are profitable, something WeWork will never say.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/peloton-produces-profit-fo...
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/peloton-interactive/...
But they are profitable, something WeWork will never say.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/peloton-produces-profit-fo...
I'm a cyclist who likes to complement cycling's lower-body workout with upper-body workouts in the gym or the pool. But since COVID I've been looking for an alternative I can do independently, either outdoors or at home.
Last spring I bought a barbell and some weights, and that helps. But I'd really like the same kind of interval workout for my upper-body as swimming provides.
I started looking into rowing machines recently and came to same conclusion as you - works most of your muscles, and provides both interval and resistance workouts. Seems perfect for the Corona Era.
Last spring I bought a barbell and some weights, and that helps. But I'd really like the same kind of interval workout for my upper-body as swimming provides.
I started looking into rowing machines recently and came to same conclusion as you - works most of your muscles, and provides both interval and resistance workouts. Seems perfect for the Corona Era.
Another place to look for upper body training that fits nice into HIIT (e.g. if you don't have the space for a rowing machine) is sledgehammer workouts. Not quite as good for cardio, but pretty intense and uses a lot of muscle groups.
Yep! Rowing is a great workout and we hope the trend picks up more in the mainstream as people realize that. Thanks for sharing.
This looks cool but I'd be in the market for a software solution that gave me "games, races, and programs" with a Concept 2 + iPad. If anyone knows of such a product please let me know.
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Check out Asensei for live coaching, or Kinomap for outdoor rows :)
Rowing is coming to Zwift, and you can already connect and row bike routes.
Nice work! I work at [large Utah-based behemoth that sells a full range of connected exercise equipment] and enjoy their interactive rower models. It's always great to see people bring new stuff to market that makes rowing fun, because I've always felt that rowing is one of the best exercises. And since 'connected fitness' is growing so exponentially at the moment, it's probably okay for me to wish you good luck, because I think your product is genuinely exciting.
I can guess which company you work for :)
I'm happy to hear our product in genuinely exciting, thank you!!!
We have a Water Rower. They have a Bluetooth module you can install to get data to other devices (phone, etc).
The programs Aviron offers look cool, but I would never trade out a working rower for a new one just for the workout programs. Families like mine are probably part your target market, but I suspect our current rower will last 10+ years. If you could connect to existing rowing machines and have the programs display on a laptop or tablet, we would definitely give it a serious look!
The programs Aviron offers look cool, but I would never trade out a working rower for a new one just for the workout programs. Families like mine are probably part your target market, but I suspect our current rower will last 10+ years. If you could connect to existing rowing machines and have the programs display on a laptop or tablet, we would definitely give it a serious look!
Water Rower is fantastic - really pretty. Thanks for the feedback. We completely understand :)
Yeah, if you can mount to a water rower I'd love to buy your device & subscription.
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I'm disappointed dynamic rowers don't get more attention and love. I own a RowPerfect 3 and it is far superior in terms of motion and workout compared to any static rower. I've never really seen anyone learn good form that has either not been on the water or used a dynamic rower. Those who only have experience with static rowers really only learn to row poorly and then reinforce that poor form through repetition.
So fish-game on the Concept2 isn't enough for yall?
Hahaha. To each their own.
I wish someone who figure out how to make a paddling machine, it much better for your core, back and overall everything than a rowing machine.
someone probably will.. eventually :)
Question 1: would you be able to use this in a condo without annoying other co-owners? The specs page says the noise level is at 60db. Is this at HIIT level of effort?
Question 2: assuming one buys this and cancel their subscription down the line (subscription fatigue), is the software on the unit useless without it or is there still some basic funcitonnality?
Question 2: assuming one buys this and cancel their subscription down the line (subscription fatigue), is the software on the unit useless without it or is there still some basic funcitonnality?
Great questions!
1: 60db is with moderate rowing. With hard rowing, it doesn't get much louder compared with say the Concept2 thanks to the nylon belt and smaller fan blades.
2: Still some basic functionality including a profile with workout history and controlling resistance. More details here - https://www.avironactive.com/membership/
Thanks for sharing. Isn't it odd though that of the four product photos on the Home Fitness page two focus on the screen (sure - your selling point) and two show non-rowing workouts. None of them really show rowing.
Not everyone can or will watch the video - you're leaving me with the takeaway that this is a rather expensive dip bench.
Not everyone can or will watch the video - you're leaving me with the takeaway that this is a rather expensive dip bench.
Good observation. Thanks for the feedback!
Parler, Aviron: is the new naming trend gonna be using French words?
HIIT workouts are good but doing some cardio helps. And for beginner rowers I think it is a good idea to have learning programs so they don't fuck-up their back by not using their legs to their full potential. A side camera with some live coaching sessions would be tremondously helpful there.
HIIT workouts are good but doing some cardio helps. And for beginner rowers I think it is a good idea to have learning programs so they don't fuck-up their back by not using their legs to their full potential. A side camera with some live coaching sessions would be tremondously helpful there.
You're 100% right - and that's the nice thing about purchasing an Aviron rower for your home, you're able to incorporate cardio, strength and HIIT workouts on one machine. We do have learning programs for beginners that show proper form etc. The machine also senses pace and output and will let the user know if they are moving too fast (for example). Live coaching would be cool - thanks for the suggestion!
A late reply here, but fwiw I want to buy a strength machine with:
* Your electric resistance motors
* Weaker concentric than eccentric movement (forced negatives)
* In a precor chassis
* With no screens or TVs, just an embedded controller with some minimal controls.
* Your electric resistance motors
* Weaker concentric than eccentric movement (forced negatives)
* In a precor chassis
* With no screens or TVs, just an embedded controller with some minimal controls.
Congratulations.
While it's out of my budget , this looks like a great high margin business to be in .
Is their any fear of getting undercut in this space
While it's out of my budget , this looks like a great high margin business to be in .
Is their any fear of getting undercut in this space
Great question. Margins are strong so we do have wiggle room. But there will always be lower cost alternatives and we plan on being best in class for high intensity and competitive workouts. As long as our prices are in line with similar companies and we continue to create user experiences, I feel we should be in a good spot.
Hi,
I have a concept 2 at Home, I use it a lot to stay in shape for my other sports, mountain biking and windsurfing. I love the concept 2, but I love your product more.
Can you use help in Europe? Maybe as a distributor or somebody that looks for events to sponsor? Would love to help.
Can you use help in Europe? Maybe as a distributor or somebody that looks for events to sponsor? Would love to help.
Awesome to hear! We are pretty young so our focus is in North America at this time, but I'll keep you in mind for when we expand.
I feel like how to tap this energy from these exercises as electricity & store them in batteries.
Some fitness equipment do this already. I'd love to see it happen with our rower, but I feel the screen is a bit too hungry.
Have you tried Hydrow? Is it similar?
I think Hydrow is an awesome product. They've built something great, but very different. They focus on longer aerobic (cardio) workouts led by instructors, while we focus on anaerobic workouts that are intense, short, have high resistance, and in the from of video games, live races, and strength programs.
Hello,
I have been rowing since beginning of Covid and I think it is a great exercise for a software developer.
I have been rowing since beginning of Covid and I think it is a great exercise for a software developer.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Rowing is definitely making a comeback and is becoming more popular.
How is this software different than Ergatta (https://ergatta.com/)? Do you offer the ability to connect the tablet to another device like a Concept2 rower?
Ergatta is a great alternative but different. From a hardware standpoint they don't have variable resistance. Our electronically controlled resistance adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower. When it comes to content, Ergatta has gamified workouts, whereas we have actual video games like Brick Breaker, races against Olympic athletes, guided strength programs that automatically adjust the resistance and let you use the rower for more than just rowing; like bicep curls and dips.
I already have a rowing machine, I wish I could simply add the Aviron screen to it.
I get it. This it the most common question we are asked. A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower.
This looks like a pretty mature product. Why did you choose to go through YC?
I think the team has done an amazing job at making it look like we are pretty mature. I can count everyone on two hands.
I really feel your pain on learning the manufacturing landscape, especially the point about manufacturers not being motivated by money. I'm about to launch something much less complicated than yours and I don't know how many times I've yelled 'do these people not like money?' after hanging up the phone.
Yea. No joke. I literally offered $25K on top to push our delivery up 4 weeks (beats flying it all over). They felt so disrespected I was ashamed.
I'm only dealing with European manufacturers, but I think it's the same everywhere. They're more worried about the downside of taking on a bad customer than picking up a little extra business.
On Jason Osborne, Olympic rower and recreational cyclist:
""" “I can do 480 watts for six minutes [on a standard 2km rowing ergometer test]. In cycling I can hold like 470-480 watts for 20 minutes. So yeah, that’s a big gap, obviously,” he said when referring to the differences between power measurement compared between rowing and cycling. One of the factors in the difference between power output is that while cycling requires consistent power throughout the entire duration, the recovery phase of the rowing stroke generates no power, effectively meaning that for a third to a half of the testing duration, zero power is produced. """
This falsifies your claim that rowing burns more calories per minute than cycling.
""" “I can do 480 watts for six minutes [on a standard 2km rowing ergometer test]. In cycling I can hold like 470-480 watts for 20 minutes. So yeah, that’s a big gap, obviously,” he said when referring to the differences between power measurement compared between rowing and cycling. One of the factors in the difference between power output is that while cycling requires consistent power throughout the entire duration, the recovery phase of the rowing stroke generates no power, effectively meaning that for a third to a half of the testing duration, zero power is produced. """
This falsifies your claim that rowing burns more calories per minute than cycling.
Does it?
Rowing could simply be less efficient at turning the calories you're burning into the power output being measured.
Rowing could simply be less efficient at turning the calories you're burning into the power output being measured.
How does it falsify that claim? 480 watts is 480 watts. That's an equivalent unit to calories per minute. In rowing, the recovery phase outputs no power but requires some power input.
Coming from a Body-Building/callisthenics background, But doesn't doing only pulling exercises without doing any pushing create some form of imbalance in a physique?
... then also do push exercises?
I know this, but does the average customer without a fitness background?
We added a variety of guided off the rower programs that include exercises like push-ups. We even do things like use the frame to let the user perform incline and decline push-ups.
Are you aware "aviron" means "airplane" in Hebrew?
it also means "rowing" in french (the intended translation I assume)
Exactly :)
We are a Canadian company.
I've always heard you can hurt yourself badly if your form isn't perfect, esp your back. True? If so, how do you help people maintain good form and not screw up their back?
Like with any workout injuries are always a possibility. We do our best to mitigate this with instructional videos for novice users and automated feedback (for example when the user is going too fast). That being said, stationary rowing machines, found in gyms or homes are not generally associated with a high risk for injuries.
good to know, i always heard the other bit...
Not a rower here. I do however own a concept2 and will never buy a machine in order to try your product. Any way to connect my concept 2?
Peloton sued GPLama for simply using the word ‘Peloton’. Good luck describing yourself as them!
We don't typically describe ourselves as the Peloton for rowing. But we did so here to make it easy for everyone to understand what we built. We appreciate your concern :)
How long are your typical workouts?
While there is a good variety of longer workouts and content, our focus was creating really solid engaging HIIT (high intensity interval training) content. So short and intense programming was key for us. As a result, there are races that are only 30 seconds, games that have 2, 5, and 10 minute options and strength programs that range from 10-20 minutes. Our experience page outlines the workout types and lengths if you'd like to dive in https://www.avironactive.com/experience/
These connected fitness products will need cross-play soon if more start coming out :)
That would be pretty sweet :)
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How do you deal with the seat problem? Anything over 30 min is a pain in the a$$.
Good question. I think its the same with other equipment, like spin bikes. It'll hurt a lot the first few times. But your butt get used to it over time.
Any way to bump HN readers up the shipping queue, perchance.
I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Before Aviron, I worked full time and long hours so I did a lot of my thinking during late night gym sessions. Like many people I avoided the rower because not only did I not enjoy cardio but damn that machine was hard and boring. There was a moment at some point in 2016 when I realized I could do something with this. The connected fitness market in the US at that time was small but growing rapidly.
Aviron is a rowing machine because it’s the most efficient and effective workout you can have in a short amount of time on one machine. The rowing motion is low impact, engages 85% of muscles, is very difficult and as a result can also be boring. This makes the rowing machine an ideal ‘candidate’ to pair with the gaming-inspired, competitive content I began thinking about in 2016.
The research was telling me there was a definite potential market niche I could fill but what I didn't know was that no manufacturer would speak to me. I probably called and emailed 50 manufacturers. I eventually kickstarted a few conversations and finally a relationship, by flying to Taiwan, connecting with a local who could translate, and knocking on doors in person. It sounds reasonable in hindsight but the process to finalizing a production contract start to finish took me a full year. A year of trying to understand the manufacturing landscape, developing relationships and convincing potential suppliers that I would eventually be worth their time.
Ultimately my key takeaway is that Taiwanese manufacturing relationships are just that - relationships. Manufacturers are looking for long-term trusting partnerships and they are much less motivated by money than my initial assumption. I’m reminded of this constantly - this month alone I have received emails re: product delays twice - and I stupidly tried to throw money at the problem, in the process offending the Taiwan team by implying they would work harder if money was on the table.
Finding and building a solid relationship with a production partner was challenging but I would give it a 7/10 relative to the hurdles that came later. The manufacturer had no experience or interest in getting the machine to work along with our custom android touchscreen. As much as I see myself as a “tech guy”, I don’t have an engineering degree. My dad does and so does my brother but I went the business degree route. Long story short, figuring out the details of making these two pieces work together was a nightmare. Again, in hindsight, it’s kind of cool - I understand my machine inside and out; I’m confident I could take it apart down to the screws and put it back together. I can also work comfortably with an oscilloscope and understand how most of the components work on a typical fitness equipment circuit board - there was a lot of circuit board soldering trial and error at one point.
I knew that I was taking on a lot with a software and hardware venture but what nobody tells you is how many miles you’re going to drive and fly when you’re taking on hardware. During our slow tip-toe pivot from B2B to B2C sales, we discovered home customers would find 10x the problems a gym would. There was a week in 2019 I drove to a customer’s home 6 hours away multiple times a week for nearly a month. Each trip I thought we had found the solution; the ride back was crushing. This was one of many problems we faced.
I’m happy to be able to say the bugs are mostly worked out! Our customers navigate a 22” touchscreen to browse 250ish content options - like my favorite and the first game we ever developed - Last Hope, an end-of-the-world inspired game where you’re being chased by zombies. As your row to escape the Ai will benchmark your fitness output and adjust the zombies’ speed to maintain a challenging pace for your fitness level.
The content for Aviron was developed with strength training and High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) in mind. For example, one of our 6 workouts categories is “Pros vs. Joes”, a program that allows you to compete against pre-recorded Olympians and professional athletes in a race.
Our customers are fitness enthusiasts who don’t enjoy long cardio workouts and crave the competitive and challenging pace of activities like CrossFit and F45, at home - especially throughout Covid. HIIT workouts tend to be shorter, have been proven to improve cognitive ability and help slow the aging process via preservation of DNA.
To me, the dual cognitive and physical benefits were really key. I began to work out in my teens, physically I felt better and my self esteem improved. Cognitively, I went from dealing with undiagnosed ADHD and struggling my way through school to slowly noticing an improvement. People told me I was “growing out of” ADHD - which is probably partially true - but something clicked when I was researching fitness programming for Aviron. Learning about HIIT and it’s (data proven) benefits, I started to realize that my commitment to consistent and challenging physical fitness had likely paid a large part in my “growing out it” as well.
Currently, we have bootstrapped Aviron to a good place; we’ve sold nearly a thousand rowers to gyms, hotels, schools and even Nike headquarters as well as homes. Or churn rate is <1% and our customers are telling us they’re happy. And they’re paying their membership every month so we believe them. :)
We are continually working on Aviron to improve the software, content and customer experience so if you have a chance please check us out and let me know what you think. I’m excited to hear from the community. I’ll be hanging out in the comments all day.