Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999(frame.work)
frame.work
Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999
https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-starting-at-999-pre-orders-are
202 comments
Hi Dan, wondering if this thread should be merged in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143545
Congratulations to the founder(s) on the launch. Wishing you nothing but success!
Nice to see a pluggable approach at a time when "repairability" is catching the fancy of the whole world.
If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros have you tested? What are the outcomes?
If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros have you tested? What are the outcomes?
We dogfood regularly on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and we've been working with the team at Fedora (and have provided them a pre-release unit). In general, the only issue we foresee in the near term is that the fingerprint reader likely won't work out of the box in Linux. There is a driver though, and we're working on making that setup as easy as possible until it is in mainline.
We? You helped with this? You guys rock!
Now there's a repairable, upgradable choice, it's going to be hard to get me to do anything else.
Now there's a repairable, upgradable choice, it's going to be hard to get me to do anything else.
Can you please ensure that you support Linux Vendor Firmware Service (LVFS)[1] i.e ensure your vendors support it.
Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when released with first class support for Linux features like LVFS can add more value to the customer.
[1]https://fwupd.org/
Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when released with first class support for Linux features like LVFS can add more value to the customer.
[1]https://fwupd.org/
Definitely! We're set up as a vendor there and will be using it for updates in the future: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/#framework
Yay! Added some more rant about LVFS to my original comment.
Do you plan to sell the prebuilt systems with linux preinstalled (or with no OS)? I have no desire for my money to go to Microsoft, and no desire for Windows, but the prebuilt model is intriguing to me.
Preloading a Linux distro is something we may do in the future. We've made the DIY Edition super easy to set up though for folks who don't want Windows in the meantime.
preinstalled linux is a hard requirement for many users, even if they want to reinstall it themselves. It gives an assurance that CPU throttling, suspension, hibernation, will work correctly. Otherwise it feels like a lottery. Of course a linux install is easy and will always work; but will it work correctly? If you offer preinstalled linuxes we can be sure it does.
> It gives an assurance that CPU throttling, suspension, hibernation, will work correctly.
For what it's worth, I had two XPS 13s in a row and the one that came with Ubuntu pre-installed had _way_ worse hardware compatibility problems.
For what it's worth, I had two XPS 13s in a row and the one that came with Ubuntu pre-installed had _way_ worse hardware compatibility problems.
> If you offer preinstalled linuxes we can be sure it does.
With that one specific preinstalled kernel image.
With that one specific preinstalled kernel image.
I'd buy this in a heartbeat if I could get a guarantee that it would work well with Linux. Having Linux pre-installed is one way to signal confidence that it works well with Linux.
It sounds like they're internally running Linux on these, which also seems like a pretty good sign?
Doesn't mean that all of the peripherals work ideally, or that power management works ideally.
I will be on your wait list for the pro the moment I can order it with Linux preinstalled.
My nitpicking is about its offering only Intel CPUs. Hello? Why do Intel at all, these days? What everybody is desperate for are AMD laptops, which are barely available from the volume makers.
Because Intel is willing to pay ODMs for pushing chips. If you want AMD go and buy ~$700 Acer Swift 3 14 Ryzen 7 4700U 16GB 512GB same 3:2 2K IPS screen.
This is my guess:
1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs with design. Complete speculation but I would not be surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs with design. Complete speculation but I would not be surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
Agreed. Zen3 would’ve been killer and cooler to boot.
I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even after the launch.
How to tease out Intel’s anti-competitive belligerence versus actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
This really deserves an AMD variant.
I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don’t think it publicly is).
I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even after the launch.
How to tease out Intel’s anti-competitive belligerence versus actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
This really deserves an AMD variant.
I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don’t think it publicly is).
I love my HP Omen laptop - the guts are beautifully designed.
I really like the idea of Framework - especially how easily the KB appears to be replaceable.
The keyboards on the Clio made S76 machines I had (gazelles) were completely non-replaceable.
What would be great ultimately is a splash-proof kb on a machine.
I really like the idea of Framework - especially how easily the KB appears to be replaceable.
The keyboards on the Clio made S76 machines I had (gazelles) were completely non-replaceable.
What would be great ultimately is a splash-proof kb on a machine.
And if even the volume makers barely have the stuff available, always sold out immediately, you think they'd have an easier time?
Intel coerces the big guys by gaming their supply chain.
A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel, and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big player could be.
A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel, and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big player could be.
You can see many interesting niche Intel Inside devices from china, like GPD.
Framework founder here. Happy to answer any questions anyone has on the product!
This is a noble effort and you can certainly take the moral high-ground over companies like Apple. However, often the problem is not only whether parts are replaceable but also availability of spares. For example, my 2016 X1 Carbon needs a new battery and it is easily user-replaceable, yet Lenovo no longer make or sell them. How can you make sure that parts are available, especially if your suppliers stop making them?
We're committing to making compatible parts available. Part of how we're doing this is continuing to use this design and architecture going forward for the foreseeable future. This means that as we continue to refresh the specs each year, modules like the battery, display, and others will remain cross-compatible. This makes it easier for us to keep suppliers bought in for the long-haul.
How long is long?
Special shout-out and thanks regarding:
> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering
I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!
These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.
Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.
p.s.
If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.
1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)
2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.
3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.
> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering
I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!
These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.
Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.
p.s.
If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.
1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)
2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.
3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.
Maybe more feedback than questions, although if there are roadmap items that would address these it'd be good to know! I'm really excited about this — besides repairability, I think the USB-C expansion cards are great, and a really neat solution to a tricky problem. I love the idea of never having to carry a USB-C dongle ever again, particularly when travelling.
The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:
1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)
Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:
1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:
1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)
Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:
1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
We're pretty happy with the display. At a little over 200 PPI, it is basically just over the edge of "retina" where pixels aren't visible at normal viewing distance, while being less power-hungry than a 4k panel.
We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.
With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).
We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.
We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.
With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).
We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.
I really appreciate the response. Thanks!
The display is fine, 4k / retina is not practical in any way, it's just marketing.
Do we have to do this on every thread about laptops?
Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
As long as we can also stop claiming that a machine is automatically unusable because it has a slightly lower resolution, sure. People seem oddly convinced that only their preferred resolution / pixel density is valid in both directions.
you realize "2K" is just 1080p, right? it's hard to find a lower resolution than 1080p in 2021 unless you go digging deep in the bargain bin. to my eyes, 1080p is more than enough for a 13" display, but possibly insufficient for 15"+. ymmv, of course.
> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.
> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.
It matters because you want to scale in integer amounts. So 110 dpi is fine. 220 too. Even 330. So it's not just higher number better, but the right number better.
What's the UEFI / secure boot situation like? Say someone's been considering a Purism machine, how does the Framework compare?
Thank you very much for what you build. It's amazing, and will be the perfect replacement for my aging laptop.
The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?
The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?
Thanks! We are developing an Ethernet Expansion Card. Due to the size of the receptacle and magnetics required, it'll bump out rather than being flush like the other cards, but still more convenient than an external dongle.
Same here, I am looking for something that does have rj45.
Some dell latitude laptops have a connector that "packs" itself, making it slim enough to be buit-in, without bumps. Is this an option for you folks?
How much do you think it will bump out? Will the laptop be stable on an even surface?
Some dell latitude laptops have a connector that "packs" itself, making it slim enough to be buit-in, without bumps. Is this an option for you folks?
How much do you think it will bump out? Will the laptop be stable on an even surface?
Is it possible to run the laptop directly off AC power, bypassing the battery?
Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at, say, 60-80%?
Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery health can be managed.
Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at, say, 60-80%?
Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery health can be managed.
It is! You can actually unplug or take out the battery and still be able to run the system. Configurable charge limits is on our firmware roadmap, though unlikely to be available at launch time.
Why go with an intel plastform right now when AMD laptops CPU are lapping intel ones for heavily multithreaded work like compiling? I suspect for developers which probably represent a larger than normal segment of your potential customers, that AMD cpus would have been the better choice for battery life and multithread?
Unlike other market offering by Intel, Tiger Lake is good choice especially for lightweight mobile laptop.
Similar to the question from myself248:
Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
[0] https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
[0] https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
An update for anyone reading: looking at [0], they're planning on moving to an open BIOS, but it's not top priority right now.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27150566
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27150566
Any plans in the future to include a discrete GPU option?
We likely won't within this 13.5" form factor, since even with a discrete GPU there would be some problematic thermal budget tradeoffs with the CPU. GPU modularity is definitely a compelling area though!
When Apple came out with flat keyboards (~2007/2008?) the entire industry copied the trend.
The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.
Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?
The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.
Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?
We put a lot of effort into great keyboard feel on the Framework laptop, both in terms of key travel (1.5mm) and key shape. There are limits to what you can do in a 15.85mm thick machine, but we stack up well compared to most other thin and light notebooks on keyboard quality.
ThinkPad?
coincidentally I was reading this article yesterday:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Lenovo-has-to-...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Lenovo-has-to-...
Hi!
I've got two questions about input:
1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)
2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)
I've got two questions about input:
1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)
2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)
Yes, we have some photos on the website currently showing ANSI and ISO keyboard geometry. As we continue to add more keyboard languages, there will be both ANSI and ISO ones depending on the language (and JIS for Japan).
The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.
The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.
Hi, thanks for hanging around; the idea seems exciting! A few questions (likely FAQs):
1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life comparable?)
2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?
3. Can this run linux without any hitch?
——
PS: Website seems to be down for now.
> Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check back in a few minutes.
1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life comparable?)
2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?
3. Can this run linux without any hitch?
——
PS: Website seems to be down for now.
> Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check back in a few minutes.
The website is back up!
We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.
The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).
We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.
The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).
FYI you probably already know this, but I get a 500 server error attempting to access https://frame.work/products/laptop
its a good problem to have
Hi, thanks for your availability and a cool product.
I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
I recall reading previous HN thread where they said they were / would permit / encourage others to build compatible component.
Yep, that is right. We're releasing reference CAD and documentation under open licenses for some modules like the Expansion Cards to enable community development.
The lack of upgradability of laptops is a huge problem, especially when so many come with 16GB or even a piddling 8GB of RAM - I'm excited to see you guys actually shipping!
Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?
Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?
Yes! We'll be selling directly to consumers in several countries in Europe (and UK) and Asia before the end of the year.
Have you tested the laptop’s materials for offgassing?
I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.
It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.
I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.
It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.
What do you suspect is the chemical that is new and widespread?
I doubt it’s just one chemical, but various kinds of plastics and adhesives, and possibly some electronic components are all likely contributors. For example, on the 8th gen. iPad, the keyboard connector is surprisingly smelly.
Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.
Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.
Why did you choose Intel over AMD?
In what country are the laptops manufactured?
Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?
What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.
Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?
What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.
Any plans for display with at least 99% Adobe RGB (for working with pictures color grading)? Good uniform brightness would also be nice. It doesn't need to be as good as Eizo/Nec, but something on the level of BenQ PhotoVue would be nice.
And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.
And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.
Thank you so much for starting this project and hopefully long-term investment. Incredibly refreshing.
The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?
Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.
The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?
Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.
We offer a pretty standard 1-year limited warranty. Extended warranties are something we are exploring, but are not available yet.
Thank you for the reply. Great to hear it's on Framework's radar.
While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.
While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.
That resolution is so close to 2X! Why not just a little bit denser so that desktops can integer scale instead of 1.8x?
EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
Congratulations on your launch!
How do you track quality during development, production, product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?
Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for product differentiation?
How do you track quality during development, production, product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?
Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for product differentiation?
We have both Quality and Customer Experience teams to span quality from the sub-suppliers and manufacturing through to customers, so that we can close the loop on any field issues.
What was the point of signing up for pre-order emails and following your launch if it was going to be announced everywhere at the same time? Your website is down and it was impossible to complete a pre-order checkout because of all the errors.
Sorry for the go-live shakiness. The website is up and running solidly now. We sent out the email to the mailing list this morning with the intent of letting folks get in and order as the news started to trickle out. In reality though, there was an immediate, massive influx of traffic (in part from HN) that brought down the website. Lessons learned for the future.
Any idea when reviewers will get their hands on it? It'd be nice to have some reviews prior to pre-orders going out.
Definitely! We'll be sending out review units before we start shipping out to customers.
When is the website coming back up
Back up now! We upgraded some infrastructure quickly to handle the massive influx of visitors.
I think it’s down again if you click the configurations. Home page is sometimes up, but that’s also down some of the time.
“ 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”
The hug of death.
“ 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”
The hug of death.
Got all the way to checkout, but couldn't order. I'll keep checking back!
Thanks for your patience! We're upgrading infrastructure further, but the website is very much still struggling under the load. On that note, we're hiring a Backend Engineer if anyone is interested! https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
Wish there was a ATX-like standard for laptops. It wouldn't work for 13-inch laptops with super-tight internals, but for gaming laptops and mobile workstations it'd be awesome. Imagine your laptop is getting a bit old, so you swap out motherboard, CPU and RAM. That's the kind of laptop I want.
We wish there was a standard too! We designed the mainboard in the Framework Laptop to be replaceable and upgradeable to future generations, along with the upgradeability of memory and storage. We've be developing new mainboards ourselves, and we'd love to bring in third party compatible mainboards too.
I would love to make an arm board. Would be cool if you could publish some sort of reference design EDA files with just the board outline and IO connectors populated.
If this goes anywhere let me know - I work on BSPs at Arm
That is doable!
All the sub-3lbs ultrabooks I've owned so far follow a similar design, the bottom of the laptop acts like a tray with the top half taken by the motherboard/heatpipe assembly and the bottom half being filled with battery.
There are differences in where the display/USB ribbon connectors are and speakers are always in strange places. Sometimes the bottom tray is tapered off like a MacBook Air. Some ultrabooks are 9mm thick and others are 11mm thick, but at that point, honestly who cares?
But in general, I don't see any reason why a 13" standard for laptop motherboards+heatpipe can't exist. Out of the XPS, HP, and Asus systems I've upgraded in the last 6ish years, they've all looked more or less the same but with annoying 1-2cm differences in ribbon connectors and screw placements.
If anything, standardization might lead to more efficient use of battery compartments. A lot of laptops seem to have empty air surrounding a commodity battery that could have been 55Wh instead of 42Wh if the space was used better.
There are differences in where the display/USB ribbon connectors are and speakers are always in strange places. Sometimes the bottom tray is tapered off like a MacBook Air. Some ultrabooks are 9mm thick and others are 11mm thick, but at that point, honestly who cares?
But in general, I don't see any reason why a 13" standard for laptop motherboards+heatpipe can't exist. Out of the XPS, HP, and Asus systems I've upgraded in the last 6ish years, they've all looked more or less the same but with annoying 1-2cm differences in ribbon connectors and screw placements.
If anything, standardization might lead to more efficient use of battery compartments. A lot of laptops seem to have empty air surrounding a commodity battery that could have been 55Wh instead of 42Wh if the space was used better.
laptops with discrete GPUs usually have an integrated heatpipe solution that cools the CPU, GPU, and chipset. at least that's been the case with all the ones I've opened up. so you would probably have to replace the GPU also. even without the GPU, the CPU/RAM/mobo is already a pretty big portion of the BOM.
at that point, I have to wonder how much you would actually save by not replacing the screen, chassis, and storage. overall, this concept strikes me as more of a win for repairs than upgrades.
at that point, I have to wonder how much you would actually save by not replacing the screen, chassis, and storage. overall, this concept strikes me as more of a win for repairs than upgrades.
Many popular 'standards' needed someone like an Intel or an IBM to push it into the mainstream by adopting it and making it very popular. For design standards on the physical layout of components, individual component manufacturers stand to benefit the most because they can sell upgrades. The system integrator (HP/Dell/Etc) is unlikely to push for them as they want to just sell you a brand new device.
An excellent idea. I sincerely hope you succeed.
1. Would be good to know more about the UEFI on it¹, in particular:
- Whose implementation will you be using? (AMI? Insyde?)
- Will it expose the all the settings to the user?
- Will it be easily flashable (via software)?
- Is there going to be an easily accesible "alt-disable" mode for ME or, if not, an equivalent solution (e.g. the ability to leave it in manufacturing mode on the ordered unit)?
(2. Here I wanted to ask about Thunderbolt compatibility but this question has been answered already², and the answer is: "maybe.")
3. What do you mean by the pre-order being open to the US only? Specifically, can I pay with a non-US issued credit card as long as I provide a shipping address in the US (forwarder's)?
¹) Also asked here by another person: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143526
²) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143958
1. Would be good to know more about the UEFI on it¹, in particular:
- Whose implementation will you be using? (AMI? Insyde?)
- Will it expose the all the settings to the user?
- Will it be easily flashable (via software)?
- Is there going to be an easily accesible "alt-disable" mode for ME or, if not, an equivalent solution (e.g. the ability to leave it in manufacturing mode on the ordered unit)?
(2. Here I wanted to ask about Thunderbolt compatibility but this question has been answered already², and the answer is: "maybe.")
3. What do you mean by the pre-order being open to the US only? Specifically, can I pay with a non-US issued credit card as long as I provide a shipping address in the US (forwarder's)?
¹) Also asked here by another person: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143526
²) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143958
This looks awesome, hopeful for the future where they have AMD CPU options as well.
The keyboard makes this a no-go for me, though I'm hoping they will be releasing additional versions? And I'm not talking about ANSI/ISO or internationalization (which they will be releasing), I'm talking about the lack of page up/down keys, the arrow keys, the lack of dedicated home/insert/end keys. These all fit comfortably on my X230 (which is smaller), and on my T470 (which is bigger, but has ~4cm to spare).
Yes, that's a valuable observation.
Perhaps, if this laptop can become sustainable they may offer more keyboard options to capture larger market share. If not, competitors will fill the need.
Perhaps, if this laptop can become sustainable they may offer more keyboard options to capture larger market share. If not, competitors will fill the need.
Hey this looks great. Looking forward to Linux compatibility statement.
The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop build page.
The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop build page.
Thanks! On Linux, we dogfood on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and have a pre-release unit with the Fedora team. We'll be publishing more detailed compatibility results soon, but it looks good.
We're definitely having some back end issues under the load! As noted elsewhere, we're hiring in this area (help us, please): https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
We're definitely having some back end issues under the load! As noted elsewhere, we're hiring in this area (help us, please): https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
Can't wait to watch some product reviews. That and full Linux support - until then my Pinebook Pro does almost everything I need. Not the fastest but more devs should use lower spec hardware.
Why should they?
If you design for slow hardware it will sure as hell work well on fast hardware. If things become unbearably slow on your slow hardware however, you're closer to actual user experience and will notice this earlier. Long story short, using slow or bad hardware helps detecting performance and usability issues earlier.
I have a coworker that always preaches testing on bad hardware. Sometimes it catches multi threaded issues, like if you arent locking correctly and use a resource before its generated. Other than that it helps ensure that you are squeezing more performance out of the software rather than relying on fast hardware. I think this sentiment comes after dealing with a ton of chromium apps that can be resource hogs. Presumably they are developed on machines with tons of resources then forced onto my dev machine and still use tons of resource that I need to write my own stuff. Personally I dont care too much, if the software has performance critical requirements, it should be thoroughly tested in some pipeline not my machine.
Re. your last point, I generally agree with the idea that performance testing should be automated, not on an ad-hoc local machine basis.
But I also do think developers live in bit of a "CPU bubble", and we need to break out of it. Most people don't have pricey hardware, and no matter what your reasoning (environmental / e-waste, user experience, simple love of the craft, etc), it is important to write performant software. In using old hardware I've discovered many, many apps are so incredibly frustrating to use for average users --- borderline unusable --- and I suspect their developers aren't even aware.
So, I don't know what the issue is, if it's tech management trends (eg "sales-driven" development), or it's a lack of automated performance testing, or beefy dev boxes, or what. But IMO it's downright embarrassing to the entire industry how bad software has gotten on average.
But I also do think developers live in bit of a "CPU bubble", and we need to break out of it. Most people don't have pricey hardware, and no matter what your reasoning (environmental / e-waste, user experience, simple love of the craft, etc), it is important to write performant software. In using old hardware I've discovered many, many apps are so incredibly frustrating to use for average users --- borderline unusable --- and I suspect their developers aren't even aware.
So, I don't know what the issue is, if it's tech management trends (eg "sales-driven" development), or it's a lack of automated performance testing, or beefy dev boxes, or what. But IMO it's downright embarrassing to the entire industry how bad software has gotten on average.
Fully agree. I have a couple of old C2D/C2Q machines still kicking around and after upgrading their storage to SSDs, running the latest Win10 builds they're still totally viable day-to-day machines… well, until you fire up a notoriously heavy web/electron app, and then they're suddenly on their knees. If the devs working on these apps had to use such machines even a single day per week I'm sure we'd see marked improvements.
Exactly. I know this may give grumpy-old-man vibes, but I find it ridiculous that with a Pentium III with ~0.1GB of RAM we could do similar day-to-day tasks with IRC or AIM or whatever (group chatting, sharing media, etc), but running Slack on a computer that's 10-100x as powerful can get such terrible performance I'm sometimes forced to type in a text editor and copy over.
So that they can pay more attention to performance.
Really exciting and congrats on the launch! I was somewhat hoping there would be “see through” options for the bezel and the keyboard/trackpad frame - maybe a future consideration? I’m likely going to order one in the near future to use as my Linux driver.
Thanks! We actually do have a clear keyboard design (https://youtu.be/XFrJcjCbCA8?t=1005) which we'll be making available later this summer. We've prototyped a transparent bezel too, but aren't happy with the quality on it just yet. That is something we'd love to make available too though.
"Repairable"
>Every module has a QR code on it that you can scan for step-by-step instructions, support information, and a link to order a replacement from the Framework Marketplace
So its a dealer "repair" where you, the dealer, sell me a repair without the labour part in a form of black box to replace.
What about the schematics? the Board files? Firmware?
Who is the ODM? Compal? Pegatron? Quanta? Clevo? Wistron? Inventec? Flextronics?
Did you pay for fully tailor made design? Who else sells a laptop with the exact same design (ignoring form factor)? You dont have a single EE listed on staff. What part of the electrical design do you own? Do you own any part of it at all? This sure looks like tweaked Acer Swift 3 SF313-53, same ODM?
Do you own any part of the firmware that goes into the laptop? Will you be able to patch it?
"Expansion Cards" More like a build-in USB 3.1 dongles :). How much are you planning to sell them for? How many USB-C "Expansion Cards" can I chain in a row for a hilarious meme video? :)
"Great Webcam in a Laptop" Thinkpad X1 tablet 2nd gen uses same OV2740, isnt exactly known for great camera. Optics and ISP tuning are the important bits. Can you post a demonstration video instead of one 1mpix picture of a laptop screen at an angle?
Competition today: "System76 laptop engineer SUPPORTS Right to Repair; interview with Louis Rossmann" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ
>Every module has a QR code on it that you can scan for step-by-step instructions, support information, and a link to order a replacement from the Framework Marketplace
So its a dealer "repair" where you, the dealer, sell me a repair without the labour part in a form of black box to replace.
What about the schematics? the Board files? Firmware?
Who is the ODM? Compal? Pegatron? Quanta? Clevo? Wistron? Inventec? Flextronics?
Did you pay for fully tailor made design? Who else sells a laptop with the exact same design (ignoring form factor)? You dont have a single EE listed on staff. What part of the electrical design do you own? Do you own any part of it at all? This sure looks like tweaked Acer Swift 3 SF313-53, same ODM?
Do you own any part of the firmware that goes into the laptop? Will you be able to patch it?
"Expansion Cards" More like a build-in USB 3.1 dongles :). How much are you planning to sell them for? How many USB-C "Expansion Cards" can I chain in a row for a hilarious meme video? :)
"Great Webcam in a Laptop" Thinkpad X1 tablet 2nd gen uses same OV2740, isnt exactly known for great camera. Optics and ISP tuning are the important bits. Can you post a demonstration video instead of one 1mpix picture of a laptop screen at an angle?
Competition today: "System76 laptop engineer SUPPORTS Right to Repair; interview with Louis Rossmann" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ
Wow these look great! My family has two 2013 Macbook Airs I need to replace soon, and the latest Apple options feel like big compromises. I love that I can get high levels of RAM. Linux support is a hard requirement for me though. And I'd love to see some numbers re battery life.
The price is lower than I expected. I wouldn't listen to the people saying it's too high.
Nice job!
The price is lower than I expected. I wouldn't listen to the people saying it's too high.
Nice job!
Can I get it without Windows please and save the licence fee for something I'll never use?
It's possible, when pre-ordering the DIY one there's a "bring your own" operating system option.
That's too bad they don't talk about this DIY pre-order option that allows to customize a lot of things.
They even say they support Linux, which is a great selling point.
That's too bad they don't talk about this DIY pre-order option that allows to customize a lot of things.
They even say they support Linux, which is a great selling point.
I can't seem to find any information on the BIOS for this machine. I'd like to see something like this come with coreboot.
Actually, I'm curious why coreboot (probably with TianoCore and maybe SeaBIOS payloads) isn't wildly popular; is it just that companies making motherboards (I think?) just tend to do their own think and OEMs just go with that by default so it'd be extra work? Because if every OEM had to go get a firmware implementation for every machine, I'd naively expect coreboot to be super widespread just by virtue of costing nothing and probably having better tooling than the proprietary alternatives.
Is Thunderbolt 3 (for eGPUs) an option? Couldn't find any info on that..
Echoing the other feedback here--I thought it would be cheaper too. The DIY edition where you have to bring your own components is at least double the price of a slightly slower laptop with RAM and storage included. I was expecting the DIY to start at $300-400, the current price point is far too high for unproven build quality.
The price point seems fine to me. These systems are for professionals, so they're competing with MacBook Pro, not budget vendors. The same should apply to Pine64 and Purism, though they might not realize it yet.
They're similarly priced to Thinkpads, and they have similar specs. I'd agree that the price seems fine. The warranty seems pretty limited (1 year!), businesses won't be happy about that. Hell, EU mandates a minimum of 2 year warranty for consumer goods.
I'm overall very impressed with their offering and the progress they've made, but I hope it will be refined in the future.
I'm overall very impressed with their offering and the progress they've made, but I hope it will be refined in the future.
The possibility to upgrade and repair easily must have been quite a bit of engineering upfront.
It's also quite a niche laptop, so I guess there's less saving at scale than the big players in this market.
Also, that screen panel probably wasn't cheap. Its ratio is unusual for consumer products so it's likely a somewhat low-volume part, and its high resolution, wide gamut, and high brightness likely bump its price up as well. Normally in $300-$400 laptops you're getting a low resolution display with a truly horrible TN panel or low-end IPS panel with mediocre color and brightness so low it's difficult to use in even a well-daylight-lit room (200-300 nits).
I'd be OK paying a premium for more modularity. I'm curious what the support for things that I can't upgrade will be like if I want to run Linux.
I made this comment a while ago and got a ton of negative votes:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27053745
They either listened to me or I should be a contestant on "The Price is Right". ;)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27053745
They either listened to me or I should be a contestant on "The Price is Right". ;)
Yeah, it's throwing 500s for me when I try to preorder.
I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace stuff.
I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace stuff.
I wish i could buy it in parts, the customs in my country doesn't allow anything above 200 usd to go throught. I wish i could buy one day the frame, other day yhe motherboard and so on...
[deleted]
What country is that, and why is that?
In Uruguay, anything above 200 usd pays roughtly 100% in taxes, you have to import it. And you have only 3 tax free shippings per year.
>and why is that?
probably import tariffs on tech products, with exceptions if it's below a certain amount.
probably import tariffs on tech products, with exceptions if it's below a certain amount.
A lot of countries have "de minimus" thresholds below which an individual can import duty-free. In the US for reference, it's $800, but other countries have other limits. If you're over that limit, either the product needs to be delivered duty paid (DDP) by the importer or if it is un-paid, the end recipient has to jump through some hoops to pay, with varying complexity in different countries.
Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
Thanks for doing this! It would be very nice to know the list of countries where you will ship this year.
I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs + local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately, when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that happens). I figured out that metal cover should be compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs + local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately, when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that happens). I figured out that metal cover should be compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
Would love to see some kind of follow up with Louis Rossmann as he is currently a strong voice in the right to repair and I know he had a lot of positive things to say about this machine along with some criticisms and questions. I know the first release won't be everyone's utopia view of the perfect open laptop but I really like the concept and execution and have already pre-ordered :)
This is really a great idea. I hope your company succeeds.
I would buy it just for the blank ISO keyboard. I hope you also add shipping from the EU.
BTW. Why does the Enter key look so strange?
I would buy it just for the blank ISO keyboard. I hope you also add shipping from the EU.
BTW. Why does the Enter key look so strange?
> Why does the Enter key look so strange?
It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical) enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the keyboard.
It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical) enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the keyboard.
The odd resolution display (2256x1504) will likely require that your OS have good high DPI / fractional scaling support, making this not really an ideal candidate for running linux :/
(save your Wayland/sway/"works for me" story for somebody who cares. I do have a working high DPI Linux laptop setup and am fully aware of all the tradeoffs that are required from each of the various configurations)
(save your Wayland/sway/"works for me" story for somebody who cares. I do have a working high DPI Linux laptop setup and am fully aware of all the tradeoffs that are required from each of the various configurations)
We've found the display resolution and scaling to work well in Ubuntu 20.04 and Fedora.
[deleted]
My employer offered to buy me a new laptop and it would have been a pre-order for your Framework if the pre-order today was offered in the EU.
We'll be opening up ordering in Europe and Asia before the end of the year. Thanks for your patience (hopefully)!
And Oceania too? I'm in Australia and have been holding off buying a new laptop with one eye on Framework. Happy to wait.
Yes, good question. Australia and New Zealand are on our target list to open before the end of the year.
Excellent, thanks :)
I hope the hinges are of good quality and can be easily replaced, my two last had massive hinge issues, and replacing them is no easy task.
We test to 20,000 hinge cycles, and we also made them easy to replace.
Probably part of planned obsolescence, they any other part would ruin manufacturer reputation, let say if you loose data etc.
Looks like I’m waiting a little longer for Canada preorders. I don’t need a new device but I really want to see this be successful m.
I'm always out of the loop with hardware: how much does an equivalent system from the big ones cost?
And how future proof/upgradable are cpu and gpu? I assume storage, ram, motherboard and usb-c will take you far otherwise.
And I wonder if it's available in Europe.
edit: oh, no dedicated GPU.
And how future proof/upgradable are cpu and gpu? I assume storage, ram, motherboard and usb-c will take you far otherwise.
And I wonder if it's available in Europe.
edit: oh, no dedicated GPU.
We've designed the mainboard (with CPU) to be upgradeable. Since the storage, memory, ports, and WiFi are socketed, that reduces the cost of the mainboard by itself.
Thanks! Still sounds really good :).
Is there a usb-c gpu that would be compatible? (edit: we'll see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27144085 )
I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I now wonder what to get next:
- another laptop with a dedicated gpu
- something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
- or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
Is there a usb-c gpu that would be compatible? (edit: we'll see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27144085 )
I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I now wonder what to get next:
- another laptop with a dedicated gpu
- something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
- or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
> If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than
I hear surprisingly good things about remote options like https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ which would avoid you needing the hardware at all.
I hear surprisingly good things about remote options like https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ which would avoid you needing the hardware at all.
Oh that's right. I had a mostly fun time with google stadia. My internet latency is just good enough, even for shooters. Some days it was playable, others it wasn't.
They do focus on AAA games though, which I don't want to afford as a casual player. I like multiplayer with friends so we usually play not to pricy or free things.
The only "single player" I'm hoping for would be MS flight sim, but even there I'd just sing a few hours, not more.
To me it feels like I should invest in a good machine with a GPU another time because:
- streaming games is just not ripe enough
- I'll keep the machine for >5 years. Good to have one bottleneck less and such long usage is worth some investment.
---
edit: maybe I should look in to https://shadow.tech/
Doing some math: 5 years * 12 month * 12$ or subscription = 720$
If I'm generous and say my gpu only stays up to date 3 years: 430$
So I have 430$ at least to spare for a local GPU and for the first 3 years will have the better performance (lag, compression, internet-dependence) and for the last 2 years I can still think about renting for another 300$.
I'd say if I keep my current computer it's worth it, if I buy a new one anyways I should get one with a gpu.
uh oh, monthly pricing is 15eur
They do focus on AAA games though, which I don't want to afford as a casual player. I like multiplayer with friends so we usually play not to pricy or free things.
The only "single player" I'm hoping for would be MS flight sim, but even there I'd just sing a few hours, not more.
To me it feels like I should invest in a good machine with a GPU another time because:
- streaming games is just not ripe enough
- I'll keep the machine for >5 years. Good to have one bottleneck less and such long usage is worth some investment.
---
edit: maybe I should look in to https://shadow.tech/
Doing some math: 5 years * 12 month * 12$ or subscription = 720$
If I'm generous and say my gpu only stays up to date 3 years: 430$
So I have 430$ at least to spare for a local GPU and for the first 3 years will have the better performance (lag, compression, internet-dependence) and for the last 2 years I can still think about renting for another 300$.
I'd say if I keep my current computer it's worth it, if I buy a new one anyways I should get one with a gpu.
uh oh, monthly pricing is 15eur
The power supply is using gallium nitride [0], very cool! Using GaN shows attention to detail, glad I ordered that as well.
[0]https://frame.work/blog/power-adapter
[0]https://frame.work/blog/power-adapter
How does the DIY edition work? It seems to be cheaper to get that and bring your own parts than it is to get a preconfigured version. Do you just insert the missing parts (memory, ssd, wifi)? Or do you have to assemble the whole thing from scratch?
The relevant blurb seems to be:
> Build it Yourself
> The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light 13.5” notebook.
> Build it Yourself
> The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light 13.5” notebook.
Right but what does the "kit of modules" consist of? Do I have to assemble the motheboard/case/display/keyboard? Or is it just the configurable components (memory, ssd, wifi)?
As a desktop user mainly, this is exciting! I really only use laptops for meetings, but next time I upgrade my laptop, I'm getting one!!
If it works well, I might consider switching back to a laptop for my main workstation...
If it works well, I might consider switching back to a laptop for my main workstation...
A) this is awesome. Great job
B) they seem to be leaving some motherboard longevity on the table by not using an AMD and/or server CPUs, which tend to use the same socket & chipset for longer.
B) they seem to be leaving some motherboard longevity on the table by not using an AMD and/or server CPUs, which tend to use the same socket & chipset for longer.
I can hardly wait for them to be available in the EU/Germany. This is pretty close to my ideal laptop: reasonable aspect ratio, repairability and a competitive price point.
I'm excited to see orders open up. I'm not overly familiar with current computer pricing but I'm pretty happy with what these are selling for.
Love it. Feedback would be that the keyboard must have different options for the pad. It looks like the pad now is too big for me at least.
So make it a an option please.
So make it a an option please.
[deleted]
I just hope they made unbreakable hinges
The hinges are end user replaceable in case they ever wear out!
compelled to buy because of blank keyboard, have been using das keyboard with blank keys for ~8 years.
I am really excited for this and consider buying a second gen next year if they support Linux. But $2000 + tax for a quad core is pretty brutal (i7-1185G7).
I got a 14” notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000€ from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next models.
I got a 14” notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000€ from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next models.
Just a note that the Base configuration that starts at $999 is also a quad core, the i5-1135G7. The i7-1185G7 is really only necessary if you need vPro for enterprise fleet management reasons (we also have a i7-1165G7 SKU for folks who want higher clocks but not vPro).
Are you able to elaborate on why there's no AMD option? I've preordered a DIY one, with the hope that down the line I can put an AMD main board in. (Still undecided on whether I'll want it if that never becomes an option)
We designed our mainboard system to be able upgradeable to future CPU platforms. We have nothing we can share around that today, but it's a core part of the product!
Okay but that does not make it better. A slightly higher boost clock on one hand vs a strong octa-core CPU on the other (and this is last year’s generation).
I want to see the charger plug and the socket. these are the first cause of death for laptops.
The Framework Laptop can charge through any of the four Expansion Card bays using a USB-C Expansion Card. This means that the charging port is replaceable. The power adapter also has separable AC and USB-C cables that can be individually replaced if ever needed.
Love the idea here, but I'm underwhelmed by the CPU. Such a shame.
How long does the battery last with an i7 though?
What’s the catch? Sounds too good to be true
IMO Samsung is taking laptops to 2.0, making them as functional and ergonomic as phones, and after apple follows, this will look like the very best 1.0 laptop.
It all depends on this company surviving
Even if you never get the opportunity to upgrade or replace parts, the price per spec seems really honest.
The chances seem good that some upgrades will be possible to make as a third party too, maybe not a new motherboard - though I wouldn’t be that surprised to see somewhat put an ARM SoC in there - but the ports are based on USB-C and it’s definitely reasonable for someone to design their own.
US only. I am a sad panda...
We're adding Canada in the next few weeks and additional countries before the end of the year.
Ooo, great news, thank you!
This is not a knock on Framework, but it amuses me that a base spec of 8 GB of RAM is acceptable in 2021.
The last time I bought a laptop was 2014. It was a Macbook Pro 15'. Even then, 8 GB was an irritating amount of RAM, so I bumped it up to 16 GB.
7 years later things have hardly improved.
The last time I bought a laptop was 2014. It was a Macbook Pro 15'. Even then, 8 GB was an irritating amount of RAM, so I bumped it up to 16 GB.
7 years later things have hardly improved.
Eh, if I was buying my mom a laptop I'd probably not waste money on more than 8GB, especially given I know I could just add more later.
> This is not a knock on Framework, but it amuses me that a base spec of 8 GB of RAM is acceptable in 2021.
my theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27097103
my theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27097103
Hey, at least here, you can upgrade after the purchase ;)
Agree 100%.
I wish them all the best; this is an exciting, welcome offering in this space.
I wish I could find the use for one, but I'm stuck with Apple's laptops for as long as I work in app development.
I wish I could find the use for one, but I'm stuck with Apple's laptops for as long as I work in app development.
Preparing for Pre-Orders! (Framework modular laptop) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052468 - May 2021 (79 comments)
The Framework Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 - Feb 2021 (991 comments)
There's also Framework’s repairable laptop is up for preorder, starting at $999 - https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/13/frameworks-repairable-lapt...
(via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27142913, but we merged that thread hither)