Ford unveils the F-150 Lightning, its all-electric pickup truck(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Ford unveils the F-150 Lightning, its all-electric pickup truck
https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/19/ford-unveils-the-f-150-lightning-its-all-electric-pickup-truck-that-will-start-under-40000/
98 comments
I was really excited about this truck until I saw they went the Tesla route with the giant touchscreen in the middle of the console. Do they think that this what EV buyers want because Tesla has it?
I want a vehicle with simple tactile controls just like my ICE vehicle, but electric.
Maybe I'm in the minority.
Base model and XLT have a 12" display with the physical A/C controls below it, same as what's in the normal F-150.
That’s still a ludicrously large display. My laptop is 13” and I’d vary rarely want a screen larger, and certainly never in a car.
It's a ludicrously large truck, so it seems mostly proportional.
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/0mRz9/s1/2021-ford-f-150.j...
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/0mRz9/s1/2021-ford-f-150.j...
Thanks, I missed that.
volume and tuning should be dials. I dislike touch screens too.
My tundra has the perfect UI for climate and audio
My tundra has the perfect UI for climate and audio
Tactile controls and an empty double-din slot to allow me to fit in whatever third party media player I choose. I don’t want <car manufacturers> bug ridden “radio” thank you very much.
they also just filed that patent for streaming ads on to that screen. great...
Starts just under $40K. Before federal EV incentive payments. Compares to $30.6K for the 2022 gas version. After incentives, the difference is only about $2.5K.
This is when electric vehicles really start taking over.
This is when electric vehicles really start taking over.
The 40k version isn't available until 5/24 ( 3 years), and it's a commercial variant, not retail.
I think that's the 24th of May, not May in 2024. They were talking about when you can place reservations and the details of each trim level.
Your previous comment was complaining about Tesla FUD. So are you spreading Ford FUD here, and if not, what's the difference? Genuinely curious.
Are incentives even necessary anymore?
Regardless, this just shows how well Ford understands the truck market. This will sell like hot cakes, and they will have trouble keeping up with demand.
Regardless, this just shows how well Ford understands the truck market. This will sell like hot cakes, and they will have trouble keeping up with demand.
EVs are currently 5% of annual sales. They need to be 60% by 2030, and 100% by 2035. Yea, incentives are still necessary, but higher taxes on combustion vehicles as well.
> This is when electric vehicles really start taking over.
Price is one aspect, the other is looks. This looks like a truck and probably drives and handles like a truck.
Truck buyers are already financing $60K trucks, this design being exactly like a body on frame F150 makes the decision easier.
Price is one aspect, the other is looks. This looks like a truck and probably drives and handles like a truck.
Truck buyers are already financing $60K trucks, this design being exactly like a body on frame F150 makes the decision easier.
Unlike a Tesla, your Ford's price isn't going to be the same as the MSRP. Dealers will charge what they think they can sell the vehicle for. If the demand is high, there will be a markup.
If they do, talk to Ford about it. It's worked before:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/39720/ford-wipes-out-10000-dea...
https://www.thedrive.com/news/39720/ford-wipes-out-10000-dea...
Hopefully manufacturers can start selling direct to consumers, versus having to go through a dealer (varies state to state). That would take out the middleman.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/competition-matters/20...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/competition-matters/20...
I don’t think the legacy automakers can. They are in too deep with dealers.
Up to a new wave of automakers to take over.
Up to a new wave of automakers to take over.
In most states it's illegal
I don't think that is true anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes
The contracts that dealerships have with the manufacturers would most likely prevent direct sales. It’s still illegal in some states, but even in the ones where it’s legal, the dealers would sue them for massive damages if they try to invalidate their franchise agreements.
How are going to test drive cars then? You need dealers even when they're run by the manufacturer.
Eh, Tesla was advertising "MSRPs" including thousands in gas savings
Or well, I guess they still are.
Or well, I guess they still are.
It isn't Ford's first electric pickup truck. Ford did an electric Ranger in 1997:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
https://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/ford-ranger-ev-is-a-for...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
https://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/ford-ranger-ev-is-a-for...
Anything less than a 500 mile range makes this a nonstarter compared to ICE models. Although from what I've read elsewhere they are putting nearly a ton (1800 pounds) of batteries in the thing. There are people who use trucks as commuters, but there are also people that are on the road or out in the puckerbrush actually working out of them. Charging infrastructure is not good, and not likely to get better overnight.
I think it would make a lot more sense to build a hybrid diesel to fit in this niche. Particularly if it had enough excess output to run some jobsite equipment. If you don't need to buy a Lincoln generator to run compressors or welders, that would be a tradeoff that would be beneficial.
I think it would make a lot more sense to build a hybrid diesel to fit in this niche. Particularly if it had enough excess output to run some jobsite equipment. If you don't need to buy a Lincoln generator to run compressors or welders, that would be a tradeoff that would be beneficial.
Have a 300 mile range EV. Drive it all over the country. Tesla will sell a million of these things in the next year. We must have missed then 500 mile requirement.
More interesting in the context of an f150 are fleet vehicles that never see anywhere near that requirement before parking for the night. Fleet sales are going to be the dominant variable for this truck.
[deleted]
Diesel already increases cost and weight over gas and are pretty efficient which is why you don't see any hybrids.
Electric motors don't compliment diesel like they do gas which can go Atkinson cycle allowing the gas motor to get diesel like efficiency while making up the loss in torque with electric.
Electric motors don't compliment diesel like they do gas which can go Atkinson cycle allowing the gas motor to get diesel like efficiency while making up the loss in torque with electric.
I love the idea of a hybrid with diesel generator for when I'm out in the bush. But I also want to note I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500 miles on a tank.
There's a tension between maximum capacity and average needs. People average around 40 miles a day. Cruising at 60 mph is said to take about 20 hp.
But if you can't fill up and sometimes need to drive all day, you want a 500 mile capacity. And if you sometimes need maximum acceleration, or tow or go up hills, you want 300 hp or whatever.
The aversion to hybrids by people who think they are just a stepping stone to full electric is illogical in my opinion and will eventually have to change. Because it's the most efficient way to plan for the average and the unusual maximum.
But if you can't fill up and sometimes need to drive all day, you want a 500 mile capacity. And if you sometimes need maximum acceleration, or tow or go up hills, you want 300 hp or whatever.
The aversion to hybrids by people who think they are just a stepping stone to full electric is illogical in my opinion and will eventually have to change. Because it's the most efficient way to plan for the average and the unusual maximum.
Their hybrid models already outputs 7.2kw at 240v for jobsite usage, and the EV model can do up to 9.6kw.
I do think hybrids still have a place (and ford just introduced one). At some point it will flip where the hybrids are the EV base plus a gas/diesel/cng/hydrogen generator for people who do those thousand-mile cross country towing trips.
I do think hybrids still have a place (and ford just introduced one). At some point it will flip where the hybrids are the EV base plus a gas/diesel/cng/hydrogen generator for people who do those thousand-mile cross country towing trips.
The number of Bay Area based Teslas all over Tahoe these days would give credence to a lower sweet spot for travel range.
Statistically nobody is buying a Lightening (or Raptor, or anything similiar) as a work truck.
Lightning is their new EV branding for the F-150. These trucks will come in everything from low-end fleet trim to $90k Lariat versions.
With the equivalent of a generator under the hood that can run a construction site worth of tools for the workday, I think there are a lot of people who will buy this for work.
With the equivalent of a generator under the hood that can run a construction site worth of tools for the workday, I think there are a lot of people who will buy this for work.
The reason we ended up with a Tesla, instead of a Kona electric, or any other EV, is the charging network. Where do you charge this thing and how long does it take?
“You can only charge at home” doesn’t work for everyone. Maybe it does for this market though?
“You can only charge at home” doesn’t work for everyone. Maybe it does for this market though?
Ford has an agreement with Electrify America (built by VW using diesel-gate penalty funds [0]). By most accounts I've read, using it is relatively frictionless with the FordPass app [1]. The annoying part seems to be finding a station that has the right plug.
[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-di...
[1] https://owner.ford.com/fordpass/fordpass-electric-vehicle-fe...
[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-di...
[1] https://owner.ford.com/fordpass/fordpass-electric-vehicle-fe...
Frictionless... is a bit of a stretch here.
https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1131
https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1131
You can charge it at 4,375 CCS charging locations in North America:
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html
New CCS charging sites are being added every week. Electrify America and Petro-Canada both have transcontinental CCS charging networks.
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html
New CCS charging sites are being added every week. Electrify America and Petro-Canada both have transcontinental CCS charging networks.
With the amount of GOOD EV coming to market, I think a lot of places (gas stations, etc) can quickly pivot to support charging stations, assuming incentives align with them. It's naturally for a lot of places with free parking (such as strip malls) to rent out the parking spaces to charging providers for extra cash. Just like cell towers.
I don’t think gas stations are set up for this. Who wants to spend 25 minutes hanging out in a gas station convenience store? Cafes or any other place to relax for 25 minutes seems the fuel station of the future.
There's already a shift to customer experience oriented gas stations on road trip routes. I would happily spend a half hour at a Sheetz, Buckees, Wawa, etc. I'd prefer a proper restaurant but there's room for both.
I would assume gas stations will start adding waiting room space, like you see in tire shops, car washes, etc. Of course they might do even better to add a more coffee shop kind of thing, so they can also sell you a muffin or something while you wait.
In Europe plenty of larger rest-stops along highways are set up for this already, due to servicing truckers and other long-distance travelers.
With EV charging stations, you don't need the expensive environmental cost of having gasoline and cost of operations. You can lease out a few parking spaces in your business (cafe, grocery, bookstores) parking lots and take a part of the profits of charging stations.
yup, i’ve seen a couple grocery stores near me installing electrify america stations, which makes a ton of sense, since most shoppers spend 30+ minutes per trip at a grocery store.
Wawa (gas station chain) has already opened the first store with only charging and no gas in Northern VA. It’s basically a mini-mart with Tesla Superchargers.
Looks like roughly 130kwh battery for 230 miles and 180kwh for 300 miles. Large battery is 1800lbs, about twice the size and weight of a Model 3 battery.
Towing range is always a problem with BEV's, to get good range they they usually focus on aerodynamics and rolling resistance which towing completely destroys. Estimates are it will be under 100 miles range towing its maximum of 10,000lbs with the big battery.
Starting at $40k its easy to see how fast battery prices are falling, being a large part of the cost, it feels a lot like how quickly solar panel prices fell.
Main issue is still energy density, both size and weight, which is going up albeit more slowly than cost is going down and it's being somewhat setback by everyone trying to move away from cobalt.
Other interesting features, all models dual motor 4WD, independent rear suspension with locker, built in scale to measure payload and tongue wieght, 9.6kw of inverter power for running AC loads off battery, optional 240v home charger that can also feed power back to a sub panel with auto switchover to act as power backup.
Towing range is always a problem with BEV's, to get good range they they usually focus on aerodynamics and rolling resistance which towing completely destroys. Estimates are it will be under 100 miles range towing its maximum of 10,000lbs with the big battery.
Starting at $40k its easy to see how fast battery prices are falling, being a large part of the cost, it feels a lot like how quickly solar panel prices fell.
Main issue is still energy density, both size and weight, which is going up albeit more slowly than cost is going down and it's being somewhat setback by everyone trying to move away from cobalt.
Other interesting features, all models dual motor 4WD, independent rear suspension with locker, built in scale to measure payload and tongue wieght, 9.6kw of inverter power for running AC loads off battery, optional 240v home charger that can also feed power back to a sub panel with auto switchover to act as power backup.
The feature list is fantastic, especially since Ford leaned into the EV-ness with powering the home and so many outlets in the bed and frunk.
They came so close to nailing it, but the charge curve is simply not acceptable. 41 minutes for 15-80% is way, way too long. Hyundai Ionic 5 is the same starting price and is close to 20 minutes. The F-150 has a much bigger battery, but that should also mean it can maintain the a high charge rate for longer before tapering. Ford not using 800V is going to come back to haunt them.
They came so close to nailing it, but the charge curve is simply not acceptable. 41 minutes for 15-80% is way, way too long. Hyundai Ionic 5 is the same starting price and is close to 20 minutes. The F-150 has a much bigger battery, but that should also mean it can maintain the a high charge rate for longer before tapering. Ford not using 800V is going to come back to haunt them.
800v adds some complications, if the pack is 800v you need a boost converter to charge from 400v or the pack needs to dynamically reconfigure with contactors or something.
On the Porsche Taycan which has an 800v battery you have to pay extra for full 150kw charging on 400v because of the voltage booster cost, the standard booster only allows 50kw and there is some loss in the conversion you will pay for.
Same issues if you go the other way and have a 400v battery with 800v charging except buck vs boost.
800v chargers can't be fed directly by 480vac which adds complexity and cost so there are very few at this time I believe, most chargers will be 400v and limited to 150kw anyway.
800v is probably the future but its kinda chicken and egg right now, I see why they went 400v.
On the Porsche Taycan which has an 800v battery you have to pay extra for full 150kw charging on 400v because of the voltage booster cost, the standard booster only allows 50kw and there is some loss in the conversion you will pay for.
Same issues if you go the other way and have a 400v battery with 800v charging except buck vs boost.
800v chargers can't be fed directly by 480vac which adds complexity and cost so there are very few at this time I believe, most chargers will be 400v and limited to 150kw anyway.
800v is probably the future but its kinda chicken and egg right now, I see why they went 400v.
Tesla Supercharger V3 can get to 250kW at 400V. The charge cable is liquid cooled due to the massive current which does add some cost.
V2 Supercharger limitation does appear to be the heat in the cable and connector. We know the battery can accept more current but it is limited due to the cable.
V2 Supercharger limitation does appear to be the heat in the cable and connector. We know the battery can accept more current but it is limited due to the cable.
CCS chargers above 50kw are usually liquid cooled as well. Above 200amps it really needs it for manageable cable size and CCS goes to 500 amps while Tesla goes to 800 amps.
CCS goes to 1000v too which is theoretically 500kw.
CCS goes to 1000v too which is theoretically 500kw.
3x fixed ration voltage boost is from 3 phase 480AC to 831DC is currently less than $100 in parts with modern electronics.
480/sqrt(3) = 277
277 * 3 = 831
I don't know why they make a big deal out of it.
480/sqrt(3) = 277
277 * 3 = 831
I don't know why they make a big deal out of it.
Really a $100 for 900 amp input 450 amp output boost DC power supply?
The magic of silicon carbide. Remember, having a 3 phase input means you have 1/3 the current per phase
Though, I will concede on the price estimate. At 250kw, you get 180A per phase, which is still outside of range for commodity parts. And at 350kw, switches which can handle 250A cost few hundred dollars each.
Alternatively, you can use a 3 phase transformer to 1400V, and rectify to 800DC.
Though, I will concede on the price estimate. At 250kw, you get 180A per phase, which is still outside of range for commodity parts. And at 350kw, switches which can handle 250A cost few hundred dollars each.
Alternatively, you can use a 3 phase transformer to 1400V, and rectify to 800DC.
All ElectrifyAmerica chargers in the US are 800v though, and they're basically 95% of the non-Tesla market these days.
Are you sure? They clearly state not all are 350kw but they seem to obfuscate how many are, it would be nice to know, they should have a map filter specifically for it:
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/how-ev-charging-works/
"Electrify America stations have CCS chargers with varying speeds, ranging from 50kW up to 350kW. "
"Our 50kW to 350kW chargers will be available at charging stations near highways, and 50kW to 150kW chargers will be available in metropolitan areas."
Anyone know how many 350kw chargers they actually have deployed?
Are the lower power ones still 800v capable?
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/how-ev-charging-works/
"Electrify America stations have CCS chargers with varying speeds, ranging from 50kW up to 350kW. "
"Our 50kW to 350kW chargers will be available at charging stations near highways, and 50kW to 150kW chargers will be available in metropolitan areas."
Anyone know how many 350kw chargers they actually have deployed?
Are the lower power ones still 800v capable?
You can go on plugshare and filter for 200 kW+ EA and see there are a huge number of sites. As far as I know every interstate site has one 350 kW cabinet.
I'm pretty sure the 150 kW cabinets are 400v. If you're there in person you can check since the inputs and outputs are labelled by law.
I'm pretty sure the 150 kW cabinets are 400v. If you're there in person you can check since the inputs and outputs are labelled by law.
Nice site, only about 250 total, Wyoming, South and North Dakota have none, closest one near me in Florida is about 40 miles away.
Is amazing how fast the infrastructure is going in. Seems much easier to build charging stations than gas stations so long as the grid can hold up.
Is amazing how fast the infrastructure is going in. Seems much easier to build charging stations than gas stations so long as the grid can hold up.
Certainly a lot less environmental studies needed for a DC fast charger than burying a tank full of toxic liquid. Depending on the jurisdiction getting a large enough grid connection can take some time.
EA's rate of installation is really impressive. Their stability is getting a lot better too. Curious to see what happens when the dieselgate money runs out though. How much of their operations are self sustaining and how much is relying on the VW fines? Hard to tell from the outside. The roughly similar organization in Europe is Ionity and they charge an astonishing amount for charging, so I'm curious if the prices have to jump a couple years down the road.
EA's rate of installation is really impressive. Their stability is getting a lot better too. Curious to see what happens when the dieselgate money runs out though. How much of their operations are self sustaining and how much is relying on the VW fines? Hard to tell from the outside. The roughly similar organization in Europe is Ionity and they charge an astonishing amount for charging, so I'm curious if the prices have to jump a couple years down the road.
I think that 1800lbs is actually the weight capacity of the truck if I'm reading the article correctly.
I'm trying to find the mass of the battery to compare the energy density to the Tesla battery packs
I'm trying to find the mass of the battery to compare the energy density to the Tesla battery packs
"The batteries alone weigh about 1,800 pounds, Ford officials told President Joe Biden during a tour of the Rouge Complex in Dearborn, Michigan, where the truck will be assembled."
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-el...
The cargo capacity also happens to be 1800 lbs with the large battery and 2000 lbs with the smaller battery.
They mentioned using less cobalt so it may not be as energy dense as top of the line NMC cells. The lithium iron Tesla packs are 20% less dense than the cobalt ones.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-el...
The cargo capacity also happens to be 1800 lbs with the large battery and 2000 lbs with the smaller battery.
They mentioned using less cobalt so it may not be as energy dense as top of the line NMC cells. The lithium iron Tesla packs are 20% less dense than the cobalt ones.
This is needed ASAP to help the ice>ev transition speed up.
Automakers should work together and just support Tesla charging stations. This would benefit everyone.
Automakers should work together and just support Tesla charging stations. This would benefit everyone.
Seems that while Tesla did offer to provide access to their charging patents/tech "for free", it seems like there's some gotchas in the fine print:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a35030461/why-other-car-co...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a35030461/why-other-car-co...
Everyone else is working together. They're using CCS. Even Nissan has switched to CCS. The only laggard at this point is Tesla.
Tesla switched to CCS in Europe. When will they switch to CCS in North America?
Tesla switched to CCS in Europe. When will they switch to CCS in North America?
Tesla is the de facto standard. It has the largest charging network. This will not change because vertical integration is the best way to deliver a smooth experience at the best price to the customer, especially when technology is evolving rapidly, as is the case here.
> Tesla is the de facto standard.
Not when other EVs can't charge on their chargers it isn't.
Not when other EVs can't charge on their chargers it isn't.
Tesla has offered other companies access for years, and very few have accepted it: https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/22/tesla-superchargers-alr...
It's almost like everyone else is working together to create the actual de facto standard and Tesla can join or stay out in the cold. If one company is doing X and a lot of other companies are collectively doing Y then X is not the standard...
[deleted]
The point of a standard is to have it deployed.
That's where Tesla's edge lies ie, it's not just a spec somewhere on a pdf but an actual real charging network that... just works!
That's where Tesla's edge lies ie, it's not just a spec somewhere on a pdf but an actual real charging network that... just works!
CCS is deployed at 4,375 charging locations in North America (https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html). That number will continue to go up.
The fastest EV cannonball run to date was done with a Porsche Taycan on Electrify America:
https://insideevs.com/news/464763/porsche-taycan-beats-elect...
The fastest EV cannonball run to date was done with a Porsche Taycan on Electrify America:
https://insideevs.com/news/464763/porsche-taycan-beats-elect...
And in fact it has gone up in the last 4 hours. It's now up to 4,380 CCS locations.
In contrast, no one needs to be "offered access" to deploy CCS chargers. You can just go ahead and build them.
Locked charging networks are a stupid outcome for everyone. I can fuel my ICE car at any fueling station so I should be able to charge my EV at any charging station. Anything less just makes EVs worse.
Locked charging networks are a stupid outcome for everyone. I can fuel my ICE car at any fueling station so I should be able to charge my EV at any charging station. Anything less just makes EVs worse.
I don't think Tesla will change it anytime soon, but if you want it Setec makes a CCS1 to Tesla Adapter.
If it doesn't plug into a SuperCharger I expect to see a deep discount.
https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1131
https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1131
I have to give Ford credit. I thought it was a mistake to make EV for its well-loved and respected product line (Mustang & F150) instead of striking out on a new product line. So far, the Mach-E has rave reviews, it seems F150 will as well. It actually looks like Ford has a strategy for once.
>the Mach-E has rave reviews,
Lots of things get rave reviews but don't sell very well (or vise versa).
>It actually looks like Ford has a strategy for once.
Last time they had a strategy it was their "global Ford" shtick from the 90s an '00s. That didn't turn out well. They spent the 90s killing or not developing product lines that turned out to be what '00s consumers wanted and spent the '00s playing catch up.
Lots of things get rave reviews but don't sell very well (or vise versa).
>It actually looks like Ford has a strategy for once.
Last time they had a strategy it was their "global Ford" shtick from the 90s an '00s. That didn't turn out well. They spent the 90s killing or not developing product lines that turned out to be what '00s consumers wanted and spent the '00s playing catch up.
The Mondeo strategy and their “Firestone” stupidity (blaming a third party for their design weakness) did then in for a while.
Ford came so close to nailing it. They are doing a special EV frame, including the first independent rear suspension for F-150. 300 mile range available is great. Packaging everything extremely well to offer 400 litres in the frunk is an absolute game changer for truck owners. Re-using the F-150 body shell keeps costs down and allows them to easily provide interior feature parity. 9.6 kW to run your home and tons of 20 amp plugs to run tools and tailgating is brilliant. 10,000 lbs towing and 1800-2000 lbs payload is great.
Then they fell flat on their faces: 41 minutes 15-80% charging. That charging curve is simply not acceptable when Hyundai's Ionic 5 has the same starting price and is about 20 minutes 10-80%.
Then they fell flat on their faces: 41 minutes 15-80% charging. That charging curve is simply not acceptable when Hyundai's Ionic 5 has the same starting price and is about 20 minutes 10-80%.
The F-150 has a battery that’s between 50% and 100% bigger than the battery in the Ioniq 5.
Thus the charging curve should be better and not worse.
It has a giant battery in it. It already takes 150kw to charge it that fast.
If they come out with a utility van version of this (ie, Transit), I can see it becoming quite popular. With the onboard inverter and 240V, there are a ton of trades and custom campers that would immediately find use for that.
It would be really cool to see a solar trickle charge setup for #vanlife
It would be really cool to see a solar trickle charge setup for #vanlife
The E-Transit is featured toward the end of the video.
https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/2022/
https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/2022/