Ask HN: Neurodiversity/ADHD Friendly Companies
223 comments
I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my thirties and I have been taking medication for the last two years. I am also in EU.
I would recommend two things (YMMV). First, use ADHD to your advantage. People with ADHD have tendency to be inquisitive, but easily bored. Because of this I have become a jack of all trades. Although I have my specialty (ML), employers really appreciate that I also able to do Linux administration, create a web app and write a paper.
The second thing would be going freelance. I've done that last year, and it has been a blessing so far. I learned many new skills in new industries. Meeting new people and learning from them has been a valuable experience. The projects can be short enough not to get bored there. As a solid full-stack engineer you can earn better money, and have longer breaks in between.
I would recommend two things (YMMV). First, use ADHD to your advantage. People with ADHD have tendency to be inquisitive, but easily bored. Because of this I have become a jack of all trades. Although I have my specialty (ML), employers really appreciate that I also able to do Linux administration, create a web app and write a paper.
The second thing would be going freelance. I've done that last year, and it has been a blessing so far. I learned many new skills in new industries. Meeting new people and learning from them has been a valuable experience. The projects can be short enough not to get bored there. As a solid full-stack engineer you can earn better money, and have longer breaks in between.
> First, use ADHD to your advantage.
Agree with this 100%. While I've never been formally diagnosed (and have no intention to be), I definitely have some tendencies that align with people who have been formally diagnosed with ADHD. The way I see it, this is a part of me anyways, so I might as well lean into it and milk it for all it's worth, which has led to me being in a similar "jack-of-all-trades" position. If anything, I view it as a tremendous advantage being able to dive into new projects/topics, learn what's interesting about them, then move onto the next shiny thing that catches my eye. With each new thing I get into, I'm able to pull from a vast trove of knowledge spanning many different subjects, which lets me think about old problems in new ways.
Even so, I can see something like ADHD being an issue for people who aren't necessarily driven to succeed beyond a baseline, and are just interested in having a more structured life.
Agree with this 100%. While I've never been formally diagnosed (and have no intention to be), I definitely have some tendencies that align with people who have been formally diagnosed with ADHD. The way I see it, this is a part of me anyways, so I might as well lean into it and milk it for all it's worth, which has led to me being in a similar "jack-of-all-trades" position. If anything, I view it as a tremendous advantage being able to dive into new projects/topics, learn what's interesting about them, then move onto the next shiny thing that catches my eye. With each new thing I get into, I'm able to pull from a vast trove of knowledge spanning many different subjects, which lets me think about old problems in new ways.
Even so, I can see something like ADHD being an issue for people who aren't necessarily driven to succeed beyond a baseline, and are just interested in having a more structured life.
> then move onto the next shiny thing that catches my eye.
This works as long as that next shiny thing is something that brings value/money or is at least compatible with your career goals. That's often the case in our field of work, but it's not a given.
I'm also a "jack of all trades" and it usually works out great for me, but I'm pretty sure that I was one non-lenient enough manager away from getting fired several times in my life. This wouldn't work so well if I wasn't working in a field that observes workers economy.
This works as long as that next shiny thing is something that brings value/money or is at least compatible with your career goals. That's often the case in our field of work, but it's not a given.
I'm also a "jack of all trades" and it usually works out great for me, but I'm pretty sure that I was one non-lenient enough manager away from getting fired several times in my life. This wouldn't work so well if I wasn't working in a field that observes workers economy.
> This works as long as that next shiny thing is something that brings value/money
Yep, I know that all too well. Took about 4-5 years after high school (and dropping out of several colleges) before I found some sort of traction in my life, otherwise I was just swinging and missing, so to speak, over and over learning new things that often didn't materialize in any substantial progress. Then the shiny new thing was starting a business, which failed, I became homeless for a few months, worked food delivery to get back on my feet, then the shiny new thing for ~1-2 months was marketing, which as it turns out I really needed, now I'm working for a good company.
Another component to all this is probably that I'm just used to the ups and downs at this point and have learned to compensate for them reasonably well enough.
Yep, I know that all too well. Took about 4-5 years after high school (and dropping out of several colleges) before I found some sort of traction in my life, otherwise I was just swinging and missing, so to speak, over and over learning new things that often didn't materialize in any substantial progress. Then the shiny new thing was starting a business, which failed, I became homeless for a few months, worked food delivery to get back on my feet, then the shiny new thing for ~1-2 months was marketing, which as it turns out I really needed, now I'm working for a good company.
Another component to all this is probably that I'm just used to the ups and downs at this point and have learned to compensate for them reasonably well enough.
Interesting, do you do one gig at a time or multiple gigs in parallel?
At the moment I work full time as a Software Developer. At this point last year I was doing food delivery using DoorDash and Uber Eats for 12-14 hours per day, which has a sort of "GO GO GO" kind of feel to it. I'm fine with either, but it has to consistently be one of the other, which I feel is a pretty common trait with regards to people's ability to switch contexts.
Regarding freelancing, how do you deal with the multitasking related to getting the next project while working on the current project? Did you outsource this? The organizational work, the back and forth, the scheduling of interviews, etc. It seems like something that's very difficult to do with AD(H)D.
I'm not a freelancer but do have the ADHD ("inattentive type") diagnosis.
Personally I thrive in multitasking situations. My mind is always wondering, so situations that have many productive "wander targets" help me from going off and doing irrelevant stuff.
Personally I thrive in multitasking situations. My mind is always wondering, so situations that have many productive "wander targets" help me from going off and doing irrelevant stuff.
I also have ADHD the problem is that you start too many things. And the old ones are not attractive as the new ones. Sure i will debug your issue that nobody else can do because i enjoy that, but you want me to change the field in that crud i will find a way to screw it because it's boring. I hate the ADHD thing, and hate that some think it's some sort of superpower. The thing i hate the most as a parent is the forgetting and not being able to enjoy the time with the kids because i get easily bored and there is allways some other ting on my mind.
So far I have had breaks after every project, so I did not have to look for a new one while I work. But recruiters keep calling. These conversations can be wrapped up in 5 minutes.
You hire people as quickly as you can to help. Otherwise you focus on the task b/c you need to get paid to eat.
Out of interest, how did you get into your freelancing? how did you start off? Do you work with a company or agency or something?
I signed up with a few agencies (some required interviews and a small project or a test), used local sites connecting workers with employers and improved my LinkedIn profile. So far agencies work best for long term, well paid projects, sites for smaller, short term. From LinkedIn I am getting lots of spam from recruiters and calls that usually lead nowhere.
It’s worth everyone knowing that there is a high proportion of neurodiverse people in our industry, relative to other industries and the general population.
The 2021 Stack Overflow Survey [0] puts ADHD at 8.51% (double the rate in the US [1]), and autism at 3.7% (about 1% globally [2]).
The point here is that, you all already work with people who have ADHD or are autistic. If your company isn’t doing right to retain us, your going to lose talent to those who do.
Small accommodations can go a very long way. Accomodations are personal, not everyone needs the same thing.
For example, I start my day at 10am. Easily managed accommodation, and now I get significantly better sleep. Everyone wins.
OP, I’d love to call out specific companies that are good at this, but I don’t really know.
[0] stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demographics-m [1] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/attention-deficit... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
The 2021 Stack Overflow Survey [0] puts ADHD at 8.51% (double the rate in the US [1]), and autism at 3.7% (about 1% globally [2]).
The point here is that, you all already work with people who have ADHD or are autistic. If your company isn’t doing right to retain us, your going to lose talent to those who do.
Small accommodations can go a very long way. Accomodations are personal, not everyone needs the same thing.
For example, I start my day at 10am. Easily managed accommodation, and now I get significantly better sleep. Everyone wins.
OP, I’d love to call out specific companies that are good at this, but I don’t really know.
[0] stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demographics-m [1] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/attention-deficit... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
I would be cautious about what people say in the survey on Stack Overflow. How many of those who claim to have ADHD or Autism have an actual diagnosis of those from a professional?
That works the other way too. You will also have a lot of people reporting they do not have ADHD or autism when they actually do.
What matters for those type of surveys is how many people report struggles. If someone struggle with attention but does not have the exact number of symptoms required for a formal diagnostic, they are still struggling.
What matters for those type of surveys is how many people report struggles. If someone struggle with attention but does not have the exact number of symptoms required for a formal diagnostic, they are still struggling.
ok, but the whole grand parent comment is a comparison to the global population. Those global statistics are not self reported, they're official diagnoses so will also be missing "people reporting they do not have ADHD or autism when they actually do".
That people struggle is an important statistic, but shouldn't immediately be counted as ADHD or autism. There can be other factors at play.
That people struggle is an important statistic, but shouldn't immediately be counted as ADHD or autism. There can be other factors at play.
Yeah, but the questions were not about whether one has symptoms or struggles with some:
"I have a concentration and/or memory disorder (e.g. ADHD)"
"I have autism / an autism spectrum disorder (e.g. Asperger's)"
"I have a concentration and/or memory disorder (e.g. ADHD)"
"I have autism / an autism spectrum disorder (e.g. Asperger's)"
You are putting way too much trust into "professionals" here. Adult ADHD was essentially not a thing people believed was real a few years ago. Where I live there was no reimbursable stimulants for anyone over 18 until 10 years ago.
Now that people are catching on to the fact they're not actually lazy but just have a much higher barrier to starting and maintaining focus on things they're not extremely passionate about some doctors handle 5-10 new patients a day.
ADHD is not rare. At all. The super strict guidelines exist because people are afraid of Ritalin and they're extra afraid of giving it to children, so double up on your "this is not actually a real thing" hysteria.
Now that people are catching on to the fact they're not actually lazy but just have a much higher barrier to starting and maintaining focus on things they're not extremely passionate about some doctors handle 5-10 new patients a day.
ADHD is not rare. At all. The super strict guidelines exist because people are afraid of Ritalin and they're extra afraid of giving it to children, so double up on your "this is not actually a real thing" hysteria.
Clickable link for stackoverflow survey: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demog...
Is there a correlation between ADHD and doing better with a late start?
"Delayed Circadian Rhythm Phase: A Cause of Late-Onset ADHD among Adolescents?"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6487490/
"Up to 75% of adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit delayed circadian rhythm phase, including a rise in salivary dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO) and alterations in core body temperature and actigraphy-measured sleep-related movements occurring approximately 1.5 hours later in the night than healthy adults. In addition, adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit a delay in early morning cortisol rise (i.e., a hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenocortical (HPA) marker of circadian phase), with secretion occurring two hours later than healthy controls. Adults with childhood-onset ADHD are also frequently “night owls” who display delayed circadian preference and increased alertness in the evening (Kooij, 2017, Coogan and McGowan, 2017)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6487490/
"Up to 75% of adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit delayed circadian rhythm phase, including a rise in salivary dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO) and alterations in core body temperature and actigraphy-measured sleep-related movements occurring approximately 1.5 hours later in the night than healthy adults. In addition, adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit a delay in early morning cortisol rise (i.e., a hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenocortical (HPA) marker of circadian phase), with secretion occurring two hours later than healthy controls. Adults with childhood-onset ADHD are also frequently “night owls” who display delayed circadian preference and increased alertness in the evening (Kooij, 2017, Coogan and McGowan, 2017)."
Thank you for digging that up for me. The more I understand myself the better I'm able to adapt.
I wonder why ADHD gets singled out so much. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. Eg. not being reprimanded for being late when it has no consequences would help everyone. Good calendar software also helps everyone.
There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.
I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic.
Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?
There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.
I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic.
Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?
> Good calendar software also helps everyone.
Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it.
Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work".
"Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD.
Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?".
I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.
Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it.
Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work".
"Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD.
Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?".
I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.
Yes. In my case I only learned to use a calendar at the ripe old age of 33 and even then I can now only sometimes remember to use it.
> I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.
It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times.
But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human.
And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all".
I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.
It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times.
But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human.
And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all".
I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.
> If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people.
This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility.
The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.
This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility.
The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.
At an exit interview with my favorite employer so far, the HR person asked "What would you change about $company?" and I asked for walls. Walls are especially great for ADHD people compared to open-plan offices in which one must debug nginx internals while listening to sales-related conversations, but the literature suggests that the benefits of walls accrue to everyone.
You’re right, but this is always the way. Accommodating people with differing needs/sensitivities usually helps everyone. non-fluorescent lighting, reduced noise, etc. The majority of people are affected by something but don’t realize it. If you fix it for more sensitive people you fix it for everyone.
ADHD people:
- loose track of things more than the typical person
- get distracted by new things more than the average person
- have significantly higher openness to experience
- tend to forget more things
- are more impulsive
So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.
- loose track of things more than the typical person
- get distracted by new things more than the average person
- have significantly higher openness to experience
- tend to forget more things
- are more impulsive
So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.
> an extra management structure
Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).
Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).
If the change of the management structure requires more active hours of management labor, for everyone or for people with ADHD, it's still more total work and labor which costs more money and is limited by hiring constraints.
I agree with you, but only if the additional burden on management is not offset by increased productivity of every employee.
I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.
I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.
You make a lot of great points.
I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody.
Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity.
So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.
I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody.
If I look at the suggestions that would help people
with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help
lots of people
Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity.
I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program"
to make their workplaces less toxic.
So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.
ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.
It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound.
Edit: better fitting analogy.
It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound.
Edit: better fitting analogy.
> ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.
I realise the point that you're making is that ADHD is a biological condition, and it's likely you're using your wording for emphasis, but I think "physically incapable" is a bit strong.
Both my sister and I have ADHD, I don't take methylphenidate (ritalin) while she does. I'm still capable of being on time and working on things I find boring (though the latter is definitely a real struggle, so I try and make sure I work on interesting things which helps my productivity to no end). My sister, however, says that she really wouldn't be able to cope in a work environment without the meds.
One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.
I realise the point that you're making is that ADHD is a biological condition, and it's likely you're using your wording for emphasis, but I think "physically incapable" is a bit strong.
Both my sister and I have ADHD, I don't take methylphenidate (ritalin) while she does. I'm still capable of being on time and working on things I find boring (though the latter is definitely a real struggle, so I try and make sure I work on interesting things which helps my productivity to no end). My sister, however, says that she really wouldn't be able to cope in a work environment without the meds.
One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.
> One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.
Just sharing some personal thoughts: my main issue is not to be productive, but the lack of control over what I can be productive at. It's the most frustrating feeling ever. You get a new cool idea and can spend 2 weeks being the most productive person ever working on it. But you know it doesn't matter and you don't really care. You can see yourself being obsessed about it but also that you did not decide to find this specific thing motivating/interesting. Then you struggle for months to do very basic stuff you actually want to be productive at.
Just sharing some personal thoughts: my main issue is not to be productive, but the lack of control over what I can be productive at. It's the most frustrating feeling ever. You get a new cool idea and can spend 2 weeks being the most productive person ever working on it. But you know it doesn't matter and you don't really care. You can see yourself being obsessed about it but also that you did not decide to find this specific thing motivating/interesting. Then you struggle for months to do very basic stuff you actually want to be productive at.
I definitely relate to that as well. One thing to note is that that particular aspect is one that I think the meds can help a fair bit with I think.
Obviously I don't know whether you're already on them or not, but if not, maybe try them?
(Obvious caveats of me having no idea about your own situation apply).
Obviously I don't know whether you're already on them or not, but if not, maybe try them?
(Obvious caveats of me having no idea about your own situation apply).
Thanks, that’s good to know.
I’m in a large city in Germany where access to medication is very strict, so we will see.
I’m in the process of being diagnosed formally since a while now. Since the pandemics psychiatrists are overbooked which results in 6+ months between appointments, so everything is very, very slow :)
I’m in a large city in Germany where access to medication is very strict, so we will see.
I’m in the process of being diagnosed formally since a while now. Since the pandemics psychiatrists are overbooked which results in 6+ months between appointments, so everything is very, very slow :)
Yes, obviously there is some nuance that I left out.
There's a severity spectrum (without meds I'm guaranteed to be late and/or distracted by the most random things), and the ability to concentrate is very hard to predict or control - not something that can be relied on for most.
There's a severity spectrum (without meds I'm guaranteed to be late and/or distracted by the most random things), and the ability to concentrate is very hard to predict or control - not something that can be relied on for most.
I agree with you on this. For me personally, I find that my ADHD fuels my obsession where I am extremely persistent and every new “shiny object” is related to the interesting topic I am working on. Like new nodes to add on a mind map.
> ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.
How do you think people with ADHD live in countries where adult ADHD is not known? It's hard, but we absolutely can.
How do you think people with ADHD live in countries where adult ADHD is not known? It's hard, but we absolutely can.
Some can, a substantial number end up in prison or homeless. Note that this is also the case for countries where ADHD is measured.
ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have. For a good layman's discussion on this, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... (for people who are not familiar with SSC, the writer is a psychiatrist by profession so he should know this stuff).
> ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate".
This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading.
Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example:
“DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘
As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.
This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading.
Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example:
“DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘
As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.
I just want to add to that, that hyperfocus isn't directed, it just happens. That's why it can mess up the lives of people with the issue - directing attention to a problem that is currently important, from a rational perspective, is almost impossible.
I think this is a problem with GP's comment, not with the original SSC article. It really does seem like ADHD is just "lowest x percent of the population by conscientiousness" which isn't exactly what GP wrote, and a bunch of people replied to GP explaining the differences between conscientiousness and what he wrote.
No. ADHD criteria and low conscientiousness behaviors overlap. Conscientiousness tests combine effort and outcomes usually. Many ADHD criteria are about difficulty.
I don't understand. Is "difficulty" some axis that's independent of "effort" and "outcomes"? Is conscientiousness defined to be the result a person achieves on a particular test, and can you provide a link to that test?
Do you often leave comments like "No. PCR-covid and pulse-oximiter-covid are different diseases. One of them involves having virus genomes in your body and the other one involves having low blood oxygen?"
Do you often leave comments like "No. PCR-covid and pulse-oximiter-covid are different diseases. One of them involves having virus genomes in your body and the other one involves having low blood oxygen?"
Difficulty and effort are independent. Some people try to do hard things. Some people don't try to do easy things. Outcomes depend on difficulty, effort, and other factors.
Talking about measuring conscientiousness means part of the Big 5 model usually. Did you have in mind a different system for assigning people conscientiousness percentiles?
Do you often say COVID-19 really does seem like the lowest x percent of the population by SpO2?
Talking about measuring conscientiousness means part of the Big 5 model usually. Did you have in mind a different system for assigning people conscientiousness percentiles?
Do you often say COVID-19 really does seem like the lowest x percent of the population by SpO2?
What if I told you that ADHD actually makes it likely for you to concentrate much more on something that engages you than a typical person, to the point that you almost forget about eating, sleeping or going to the toilet? Having a tendency to hyperfocus is a pretty common ADHD trait.
It's really not that simple. Squishing it all down to "ability to concentrate" isn't just an oversimplification; it misses the point entirely. Having difficulties with concentration on non-engaging tasks is just one of the possible symptoms.
It's really not that simple. Squishing it all down to "ability to concentrate" isn't just an oversimplification; it misses the point entirely. Having difficulties with concentration on non-engaging tasks is just one of the possible symptoms.
Exactly. People fundamentally misunderstand it in this very common way and it's such a shame. It's really the difficult in ability to regulate attention which includes both keeping your attention on something (i.e concentration) and your ability to take your attention off something and shift it to something else (i.e hyperfocus).
I do not fundamentally misunderstand this. That would be weird considering my own ADHD combined type diagnosis in the severe range.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Hah wrote that on mobile, looks like it's missing a part.
ADHD Is on a spectrum, which is what I wish people would understand. My diagnosis is in the severe range, and I'm 100% useless without medication. Unable to concentrate or be on time even if my life depended on it.
ADHD Is on a spectrum, which is what I wish people would understand. My diagnosis is in the severe range, and I'm 100% useless without medication. Unable to concentrate or be on time even if my life depended on it.
Ah so I just have to concentrate harder!
Geez why didn't anyone just tell me this, would have been a lot easier
Geez why didn't anyone just tell me this, would have been a lot easier
But have you tried creating a list?! /s
Which list software/paper/pen should I use ?
(Semi-serious question even though /s because topic)
(Semi-serious question even though /s because topic)
A physical journal, using the bullet journal method is what works for me. It is hard to stick to it the first few months and require a good amount of effort but that's what I've been the most persistent with.
The book "The bullet journal method" from Ryder Carroll was a good introduction to understand how the method works (try to ignore the preachy tone): https://bulletjournal.com/pages/book.
I now have >6 months of journaling, with only a few missing weeks and I can say it has been very helpful to organize my time and mind.
Regarding the type of notebook or pen, it really does not matter, you just need something you enjoy using. I personally use Faber-Castell pens I got for a few cents each (in €) because I like their feeling in my hand, and an idena notebook because they have a lot of pages and I already had a few of them around my house (~6€ each).
The book "The bullet journal method" from Ryder Carroll was a good introduction to understand how the method works (try to ignore the preachy tone): https://bulletjournal.com/pages/book.
I now have >6 months of journaling, with only a few missing weeks and I can say it has been very helpful to organize my time and mind.
Regarding the type of notebook or pen, it really does not matter, you just need something you enjoy using. I personally use Faber-Castell pens I got for a few cents each (in €) because I like their feeling in my hand, and an idena notebook because they have a lot of pages and I already had a few of them around my house (~6€ each).
>Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have
It's a requirement for diagnosis that it affects multiple domains of your life and not limited to just a single domain, so no.
It's a requirement for diagnosis that it affects multiple domains of your life and not limited to just a single domain, so no.
I think this is generally true, but it's a matter of magnitude. For example, a public transit program helps everyone in the neighbourhood, but especially helps those who can't afford to drive. So when someone says "hey, we should help low-income people by building a subway", they're not saying that it'll only help low-income folks, but that it'll especially help low income folks.
The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.
The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.
Hello There! Former ADHD bro here.
I was diagnosed with ADHD 10 months ago. At that time my life was a BIG BLOB of MESS and CHAOS.
I started attending therapy sessions with a really good Therapist once a week since then.
After 6 months, I had sense of every way ADHD was affecting my life, but couldn't figure out how to overcome the symptoms by myself.
My therapist recommended a psychiatrist, which prescribed Vyvanse 30mg (ADHD med), i started taking it 3 months ago.
It changed everything. I got promoted on my current job, started a post-grad on Data Engineering at a top University here in Brazil. It made me build structures in my life, organize it's mess, gave me focus and HOPE. Productivity at it's best.
I can't think how I could overcome my ADHD without my Therapist and meds.
Before seeking a company that "fits your problems" i recommend you trying these first:
1. go to a really good therapist 2. Make sense on how your ADHD condition affects you 3. Try to overcome it 4. Go for meds if needed (LAST RESOURCE) 5. Keep trying
Don't mix up your ADHD anxiety with depression, it is the worst loophole to dive in.
Hope you find it all out
I was diagnosed with ADHD 10 months ago. At that time my life was a BIG BLOB of MESS and CHAOS.
I started attending therapy sessions with a really good Therapist once a week since then.
After 6 months, I had sense of every way ADHD was affecting my life, but couldn't figure out how to overcome the symptoms by myself.
My therapist recommended a psychiatrist, which prescribed Vyvanse 30mg (ADHD med), i started taking it 3 months ago.
It changed everything. I got promoted on my current job, started a post-grad on Data Engineering at a top University here in Brazil. It made me build structures in my life, organize it's mess, gave me focus and HOPE. Productivity at it's best.
I can't think how I could overcome my ADHD without my Therapist and meds.
Before seeking a company that "fits your problems" i recommend you trying these first:
1. go to a really good therapist 2. Make sense on how your ADHD condition affects you 3. Try to overcome it 4. Go for meds if needed (LAST RESOURCE) 5. Keep trying
Don't mix up your ADHD anxiety with depression, it is the worst loophole to dive in.
Hope you find it all out
Reading your comment makes me so nervous. I could have written it myself when I was in college. Back then, ADHD meds transformed my life for the better, at least during the first couple years. It was great! A pill solved all of my problems. But then, very slowly, over the course of years, I developed a much worse set of problems. Now, ten years later, I'm struggling with an addiction that affects every aspect of my life. I'm less productive than I was before I ever took meds. I've lost friends and become socially isolated. I fear that my executive function is permanently damaged.
Meds don't even make me productive anymore, they just keep the withdrawal at bay. And the withdrawal is so bad that I can't even function enough to do a time sheet right for at least a week. I can't quit my meds without great difficulty because there is simply no way for me to do that while maintaining employment. I have a family to support, so I'm trapped using this drug that has been devastating to my life in a lot of ways I'd rather not share.
Before I took meds, I was a little bit of an under-achiever and just a typical ADHD sufferer. But I was able to function and get by. Now, I'm barely able to function, and my life feels like it's constantly on the edge of falling apart due to what has become total dependency on the drug. The person I was back then is gone.
Very little research has been done on the long-term effects of prescription stimulant use. I can't say you'll end up like me, but just know that there is a large and growing community of people like me who desperately wish they never took this drug.
Meds don't even make me productive anymore, they just keep the withdrawal at bay. And the withdrawal is so bad that I can't even function enough to do a time sheet right for at least a week. I can't quit my meds without great difficulty because there is simply no way for me to do that while maintaining employment. I have a family to support, so I'm trapped using this drug that has been devastating to my life in a lot of ways I'd rather not share.
Before I took meds, I was a little bit of an under-achiever and just a typical ADHD sufferer. But I was able to function and get by. Now, I'm barely able to function, and my life feels like it's constantly on the edge of falling apart due to what has become total dependency on the drug. The person I was back then is gone.
Very little research has been done on the long-term effects of prescription stimulant use. I can't say you'll end up like me, but just know that there is a large and growing community of people like me who desperately wish they never took this drug.
Please talk with your doctors about it, switch specialists if needed. If someone dismiss how you feel about yourself and your situation it's them who is wrong, not you.
One of the reasons ADHD has a bad reputation is because Adderall et al. were given out like candies at some point. I'm 100% aware of that. I wouldn't be surprised if someone would be forced into ADHD box only because parents/doctors/someone else think they should be. Kid is underperforming? Hit it with meds. Too noisy? Same. I wouldn't be surprised neurotypical person would get boost from meds.
I also don't believe ADHD can be managed with "here's a pill, go play" approach. It's a complex issue that requires complex solutions.
One of the reasons ADHD has a bad reputation is because Adderall et al. were given out like candies at some point. I'm 100% aware of that. I wouldn't be surprised if someone would be forced into ADHD box only because parents/doctors/someone else think they should be. Kid is underperforming? Hit it with meds. Too noisy? Same. I wouldn't be surprised neurotypical person would get boost from meds.
I also don't believe ADHD can be managed with "here's a pill, go play" approach. It's a complex issue that requires complex solutions.
First of all, let me say as someone who has struggled with dependency in the past that you have my deepest sympathies. I hope you find the support you need to overcome the issues you are dealing with.
I do have to object to one statement you made:
>Very little research has been done on the long-term effects of prescription stimulant use.
This is objectively untrue. There has been a great deal of research done on the long term effects of prescription stimulant treatments. The preponderance of the evidence shows that long term use of stimulant medications has limited negative consequences and is generally safe. Here is one such study, and you can explore the citations/related articles to find more:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11322742/
Speaking as someone who was also diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, the consequences for me personally being unmedicated are far greater than the anticipated long term consequences, and on the whole the treatment is an acceptable risk.
If anyone is out there who is suffering but is afraid of taking medication, don't be. Talk to a medical professional, and learn for yourself the pros/cons. Treatment with prescriptions has the potential to reduce your suffering.
I do have to object to one statement you made:
>Very little research has been done on the long-term effects of prescription stimulant use.
This is objectively untrue. There has been a great deal of research done on the long term effects of prescription stimulant treatments. The preponderance of the evidence shows that long term use of stimulant medications has limited negative consequences and is generally safe. Here is one such study, and you can explore the citations/related articles to find more:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11322742/
Speaking as someone who was also diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, the consequences for me personally being unmedicated are far greater than the anticipated long term consequences, and on the whole the treatment is an acceptable risk.
If anyone is out there who is suffering but is afraid of taking medication, don't be. Talk to a medical professional, and learn for yourself the pros/cons. Treatment with prescriptions has the potential to reduce your suffering.
This is awful to read. I'm so sorry you're struggling. I 100% believe you.
I would mention for others that this is not my experience. I was on Adderall as an adult for about 8 years from 2008-2016 and did not have any long term issues.
Eventually though, it did lose its effectiveness for me. And because it made me slightly cranky, I eventually felt the downsides outweighed the upsides. Especially since there were quite a few instances of adderall shortages at the pharmacies, and those were stressful.
Back in college, I was pulled in 2 or 3 directions at a time. Work, school, dating. Yeah, it was a lot.
But now? Maintaining a home, trying to manage finances with an eye towards retiring before I'm 150 years old, marriage, all the health problems that come with no longer being 19 years old, aging and dying parents, in-laws, etc. And I don't even have children. I feel like I'm 2x better at managing things, but I have 5x the demands.
I would mention for others that this is not my experience. I was on Adderall as an adult for about 8 years from 2008-2016 and did not have any long term issues.
Eventually though, it did lose its effectiveness for me. And because it made me slightly cranky, I eventually felt the downsides outweighed the upsides. Especially since there were quite a few instances of adderall shortages at the pharmacies, and those were stressful.
And the withdrawal is so bad that I can't even
function enough to do a time sheet right for at
least a week.
...when I was in college. Back then, ADHD meds
transformed my life for the better, at least
during the first couple years. It was great!
A pill solved all of my problems. But then,
very slowly, over the course of years, I developed
a much worse set of problems.
Back in college, I was pulled in 2 or 3 directions at a time. Work, school, dating. Yeah, it was a lot.
But now? Maintaining a home, trying to manage finances with an eye towards retiring before I'm 150 years old, marriage, all the health problems that come with no longer being 19 years old, aging and dying parents, in-laws, etc. And I don't even have children. I feel like I'm 2x better at managing things, but I have 5x the demands.
[deleted]
I'm sorry about what happened to you, really sounds awful. Have you tried tapering your dose very slowly over a long time? Speaking from personal experience, that worked for me (thank God) with my med dependency.
Can you go into more detail about what withdrawal is like for you? I've been taking methylphenidate for ADHD recently and I want to know what to look out for.
Not OP, but have been on stimulants off and on for a decade (tried various ones, with Vyvanse and Adderall being most effective, but the former triggering mania so can’t take anymore).
YMMV, but “withdrawal” has never been more than a minor annoyance, even after years at relatively high dosage. Tired for a few days, a little bit lacking in motivation, definitely more difficult to concentrate.
The concentration part is usually the hardest, but is not necessarily worse than before the drugs, you just forgot why you went on them to begin with or how bad your ability to focus really was.
I will say, it can take some time to adapt to that lack of ability to focus though, as your coping mechanisms before you took medication are a bit atrophied due to no longer needing them.
The physical withdrawals themself really aren’t problematic though.
YMMV, but “withdrawal” has never been more than a minor annoyance, even after years at relatively high dosage. Tired for a few days, a little bit lacking in motivation, definitely more difficult to concentrate.
The concentration part is usually the hardest, but is not necessarily worse than before the drugs, you just forgot why you went on them to begin with or how bad your ability to focus really was.
I will say, it can take some time to adapt to that lack of ability to focus though, as your coping mechanisms before you took medication are a bit atrophied due to no longer needing them.
The physical withdrawals themself really aren’t problematic though.
Not the parent poster, but I suppose an extra data point would not be a bad thing.
My main point of comparison for Adderall withdrawal would be caffeine withdrawal. I don't have experiences with other dependencies.
"Cold turkey" caffeine withdrawal was much more severe than Adderall withdrawal for me. Probably twice as bad. In both cases, I felt extremely fatigued. However, severe caffeine withdrawal went beyond "fatigue" and really made me feel like total shit.
Everybody is different but I believe this is consistent with what most people report.
Of course, there is no real reason to go "cold turkey" and quit suddenly. For both substances can just taper your dosage steadily down to 0mg over a week or two and you should be fine.
My main point of comparison for Adderall withdrawal would be caffeine withdrawal. I don't have experiences with other dependencies.
"Cold turkey" caffeine withdrawal was much more severe than Adderall withdrawal for me. Probably twice as bad. In both cases, I felt extremely fatigued. However, severe caffeine withdrawal went beyond "fatigue" and really made me feel like total shit.
Everybody is different but I believe this is consistent with what most people report.
Of course, there is no real reason to go "cold turkey" and quit suddenly. For both substances can just taper your dosage steadily down to 0mg over a week or two and you should be fine.
For me, it feels similar to when I'd go cold turkey from 2-3 daily cups of coffee (before I started taking medication). 2-5 days of shitty mood, then back to baseline pre-coffee. It sucks, and it will sour your mood when your ability to function drops significantly for a few days, but it passes.
cold turkey
Personally, I have a hard time with moderation, and doing things gradually. I'm very much all or nothing, so it's easier for me to say "no caffeine in any circumstance!" than "okay just a little caffeine each day", because at that point it's easy to convince myself "well half a cup was fine, so just a sip more won't really make a difference."
Exactly the same for me, but also the approach to alcohol. Moderation is not something that works - either I 'forget' or the it snowballs. Therefore, decaf coffee (seems okay) and no alcohol.
This is common for people with ADHD. For me, tapering off of a substance gradually is impossible.
I got an ADHD diagnosis at 25. Didn't really surprise me, but I went to see a physician with the intent purpose of getting meds to help me. I told the truth and was able to get a Vyvanse script pretty easily.
Interestingly, I didn't take the meds for very long, despite their more addictive qualities. About a year later, I had an emotional epiphany at a friend's wedding that cured the leftovers of my depression. It really rocked me to my core. Now my body experiences the world in a way I didn't know was possible.
I read in passing somewhere that ~35% of ADHD patients that take Adderall report therapeutic effects (like I had), but I don't recall the source. If anyone knew more about that I'd be interested to hear it.
Interestingly, I didn't take the meds for very long, despite their more addictive qualities. About a year later, I had an emotional epiphany at a friend's wedding that cured the leftovers of my depression. It really rocked me to my core. Now my body experiences the world in a way I didn't know was possible.
I read in passing somewhere that ~35% of ADHD patients that take Adderall report therapeutic effects (like I had), but I don't recall the source. If anyone knew more about that I'd be interested to hear it.
I'd be really interested in hearing about the epiphany you experienced, if it's something you're comfortable sharing.
Sure, I'm really open about my experience.
I've always been a sensitive person, but at 25, I found myself acting callously because of a history of being neglected. It was a reasonable choice for my life. Effective. I escaped poverty with that worldview and it was reinforced.
I went to a wedding last spring, and the powerful feelings that day made me more sensitive than usual. Something happened that really really made me feel like shit. I brought a date, and for a number of reasons, she acted very cold and distant with me. At times she was disgusted (which I empathized with, but had trouble dealing with). She ended up spending the night with another man. That made me feel awful.
Then something happened that really really made me feel good. This wedding was in my hometown. I had a friend I'd known during 6th grade, but we quickly grew apart because of my volatile domestic circumstances. I shared a lot with this friend about enjoying Actionscript3, even showing him code demonstrations on my laptop at school. The night of that wedding I learned from his mother that, though our friendship was brief, I deeply inspired him to start a successful business programming car engine computers. She told me directly, "I don't think you know how much you affected him." He was at that wedding with his wife and 4 year old daughter. And I thought "Damn, I'm such an amazing person that I inspired this man to start a business to provide for his family. So why do I feel like shit?"
I was on Adderall at the time, and I entered a state of mania. No model for my understanding of other people could reconcile the two feelings. It's simultaneously the most painful and wonderful thing that's ever happened to me. I ended up driving home at 3am after I sobered up. On that 3 hour drive I got to process all the feelings that didn't make sense to me. At some point, I looked into the darkness of the highway and a Jackson Pollock painting was staring back at me. It was surreal.
After struggling to find the words that morning, I found what I was looking for: We all build pillars of personality, and they are not as strong as we think they are. The moment those words popped into my head, I felt an immediate relief in my chest, around my heart. I used to feel like my mind had to consult my chest before I did anything. I leaned so much on my primal, animal responses without realizing it. And it destroyed my mental health. Now I could willingly feel any part of my body without agitating it. It was beautiful. For the next week I'd wake up in the morning and think "My body is so loose. Do I really feel this good?". Unbelievable.
Since then I stopped taking the Adderall, quit alcohol and quit drugs. That journey has been messy and it's taken time, but I'm proud of it. I learned that being proud of myself meant I had to be proud of the moments I've hurt people just as much as I'm proud of the moments I inspire people. Because that's what it means to be me -- not to live for what's right or what's wrong, but to live and simply be.
I've always been a sensitive person, but at 25, I found myself acting callously because of a history of being neglected. It was a reasonable choice for my life. Effective. I escaped poverty with that worldview and it was reinforced.
I went to a wedding last spring, and the powerful feelings that day made me more sensitive than usual. Something happened that really really made me feel like shit. I brought a date, and for a number of reasons, she acted very cold and distant with me. At times she was disgusted (which I empathized with, but had trouble dealing with). She ended up spending the night with another man. That made me feel awful.
Then something happened that really really made me feel good. This wedding was in my hometown. I had a friend I'd known during 6th grade, but we quickly grew apart because of my volatile domestic circumstances. I shared a lot with this friend about enjoying Actionscript3, even showing him code demonstrations on my laptop at school. The night of that wedding I learned from his mother that, though our friendship was brief, I deeply inspired him to start a successful business programming car engine computers. She told me directly, "I don't think you know how much you affected him." He was at that wedding with his wife and 4 year old daughter. And I thought "Damn, I'm such an amazing person that I inspired this man to start a business to provide for his family. So why do I feel like shit?"
I was on Adderall at the time, and I entered a state of mania. No model for my understanding of other people could reconcile the two feelings. It's simultaneously the most painful and wonderful thing that's ever happened to me. I ended up driving home at 3am after I sobered up. On that 3 hour drive I got to process all the feelings that didn't make sense to me. At some point, I looked into the darkness of the highway and a Jackson Pollock painting was staring back at me. It was surreal.
After struggling to find the words that morning, I found what I was looking for: We all build pillars of personality, and they are not as strong as we think they are. The moment those words popped into my head, I felt an immediate relief in my chest, around my heart. I used to feel like my mind had to consult my chest before I did anything. I leaned so much on my primal, animal responses without realizing it. And it destroyed my mental health. Now I could willingly feel any part of my body without agitating it. It was beautiful. For the next week I'd wake up in the morning and think "My body is so loose. Do I really feel this good?". Unbelievable.
Since then I stopped taking the Adderall, quit alcohol and quit drugs. That journey has been messy and it's taken time, but I'm proud of it. I learned that being proud of myself meant I had to be proud of the moments I've hurt people just as much as I'm proud of the moments I inspire people. Because that's what it means to be me -- not to live for what's right or what's wrong, but to live and simply be.
Congratulations on your progress and thanks for sharing your story. I think I'm a few steps behind you on this journey and it's great to hear how you've found a treatment program that works for you!
Is your vyvanse like $300 a month? I was taking it and it helped with a lot of things but I stopped because it was so expensive. Therapy was expensive too
I live in Brazil, therapy and meds here are pretty expensive.
I usually spend a whole Brazilian minimum wage (roughly aroung us$200 - us$300) on therapy and Vyvanse per month.
Wage gap here is pretty big so as I work in the marketing/tech industry I can afford to do so as dealing with my ADHD is my priority now.
I receive around 7x our country's minimum wage per month as a parameter.
I am on Vyvanse and Adderall XR. Vyvanse has a much cleaner feeling to me and it is easier for me to skip a day (if I want to, like staying home and playing with kids) where as with the Adderall I cannot skip a day without harsh side effects.
Edit: and I forgot to mention, my insurance covers it, thankfully but they wouldn't cover something like Mydayis
Edit: and I forgot to mention, my insurance covers it, thankfully but they wouldn't cover something like Mydayis
There's no generic alternative for Vyvanse, so w/o insurance it's going to be costly.
I have ADHD. I've tried both Adderall and Vyvanse, and IMO Vyvanse is the much cleaner feeling drug. Kinda glad the price point kept me out of it because it compelled me to find strategies that dont involve meds.
I have ADHD. I've tried both Adderall and Vyvanse, and IMO Vyvanse is the much cleaner feeling drug. Kinda glad the price point kept me out of it because it compelled me to find strategies that dont involve meds.
Vyvanse is an abuse resistant form of dextroamphetamine basically. Generic dextroamphetamine is an alternative if it's legal in your country. Adderall is a combination of dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine.
Wellbutrin can help too.
I think a lot of vendors carry generic Desoxyn at very affordable prices.
It's not the same substance.
Desoxyn is pharmaceutical methamphetamine.
Vyvanse is lisdexamphetamine, a slow release version of dexamphetamine.
Don't be mislead by the name, they're quite different. And methamphetamine is very rarely prescribed, only when everything else fails. While Vyvanse is usually first line treatment.
Desoxyn is pharmaceutical methamphetamine.
Vyvanse is lisdexamphetamine, a slow release version of dexamphetamine.
Don't be mislead by the name, they're quite different. And methamphetamine is very rarely prescribed, only when everything else fails. While Vyvanse is usually first line treatment.
I did not mean to suggest that they were the same substance. Reviews by people with ADHD people who have tried many meds paint a rosy picture of this particular medication. The order in which doctors prescribe things seems mostly unrelated to which things are best for patients.
So I've heard, but I've also heard psychiatrists being very cautious in prescribing Desoxyn. AFAIR Slate Star Codex linked many times in this thread is one of them. And I'm not even sure you can get it prescribed outside of the US.
Methamphetamine seems to be very effective with fewer side effects, but there's a lot of stigma and legal issues with it being one of the most controlled substances. So even if cheap it's not going to be easy or convenient to get it prescribed.
Methamphetamine seems to be very effective with fewer side effects, but there's a lot of stigma and legal issues with it being one of the most controlled substances. So even if cheap it's not going to be easy or convenient to get it prescribed.
Actually, for me Vyvanse wasn't even in the first three medications suggested to me to try first.
Depends, here in the UK it is, while for example Adderall is very expensive as it needs to be imported from the US.
Eating stimulants should be the first thing on the list, given that the condition is likely to prevent people from progressing through lists.
> Do you know / can recommend companies with neurodiversity programs?
It's very easy for companies to set up something like this for the sake of appearances, I would advise against selecting your employer based on this.
It's very easy for companies to set up something like this for the sake of appearances, I would advise against selecting your employer based on this.
The kind of company that sets up a neurodiversity program will also not be the kind of company OP is describing he likes. Big, slow, rich companies can do stuff like that but the development work will be more bureaucratic. Small startups have you wear many hats and always put out fires and cobble things together to a solution that’s fast and kind of works.
But those companies will never invest heavily into HR initiatives until they have like 1000 people.
This is a really important point. I left a job after 3 months despite a program like this for a number of reasons:
* the "program" was mainly lip-service, as far as I could tell there was no meaningful impact in daily management
* the company was so bureaucratic that it took me two weeks to get a development environment set up for lack of an MFA token setup, and that was just the tip of the iceberg.
* There were a lot of elegant abstractions over code that never should have been written, which demanded weeks worth of just learning topology for the application
* Political and ego conflict meant that any change I tried to make got shot down not for technical reasons but because I "hadn't paid my dues" for credibility.
I've done much better with early- and mid-stage startups with lots of problems to be handled and all the encouragement in the world to go after them, even without these "neurodivergence programs". Of course, you're getting into another world of life problems (e.g. these companies rarely have parental leave worth mentioning) but you can usually work around the edges.
I've done much better with early- and mid-stage startups with lots of problems to be handled and all the encouragement in the world to go after them, even without these "neurodivergence programs". Of course, you're getting into another world of life problems (e.g. these companies rarely have parental leave worth mentioning) but you can usually work around the edges.
>Big, slow, rich companies can do stuff like that but the development work will be more bureaucratic.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! You hit the nail on the head. I'm currently working at such a company and you're 100% right. And the bureaucratic nature of it all drives me pretty mental. It's not a good environment for me at all. I'm going back to a smaller company.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! You hit the nail on the head. I'm currently working at such a company and you're 100% right. And the bureaucratic nature of it all drives me pretty mental. It's not a good environment for me at all. I'm going back to a smaller company.
Absolutely true, yet then at least I would feel at ease with myself if we agree to the terms. All cards on the table and I won't have to feel bad about myself because I procrastinated on filling 37.12 .xlsx files with the detailed diary about my work.
What kind of terms do you mean? Opening with "I might procrastinate" will make interviewing much more difficult - many companies will disqualify you regardless of their mental health initiatives.
Well, of course I don't do interviews like that.
But keep in mind one thing. If I go and say that I wrote at least one application in (probably more but, let's size it down) in 25 different languages people usually think I'm a con. I can't say I use the technology X and I'm expert on it neither because I'm going to be asked about some obscure thing that I don't care and it's the end.
What I always find the funniest is that the interviewers always sees the worst of me during interviews. Anxiety of evaluation is often breaking me. Most of the high profile interviews I had followed the schema: get nervous -> can't sleep -> sleep 1h/night prior to test/interview -> after 2 interviews forget basic math due to exhaustion -> uneven performance -> bye
However I'd like to be transparent about it, so that I can get a partner and feel better and deliver (as even though I procrastrinate it's not something I want - I'd love to deliver 100% of the time), so I help you, you help me.
And I do have a rather good rep sheet, thus throwaway. I believe people would feel cheated if they'd know otherwise.
But keep in mind one thing. If I go and say that I wrote at least one application in (probably more but, let's size it down) in 25 different languages people usually think I'm a con. I can't say I use the technology X and I'm expert on it neither because I'm going to be asked about some obscure thing that I don't care and it's the end.
What I always find the funniest is that the interviewers always sees the worst of me during interviews. Anxiety of evaluation is often breaking me. Most of the high profile interviews I had followed the schema: get nervous -> can't sleep -> sleep 1h/night prior to test/interview -> after 2 interviews forget basic math due to exhaustion -> uneven performance -> bye
However I'd like to be transparent about it, so that I can get a partner and feel better and deliver (as even though I procrastrinate it's not something I want - I'd love to deliver 100% of the time), so I help you, you help me.
And I do have a rather good rep sheet, thus throwaway. I believe people would feel cheated if they'd know otherwise.
You might enjoy reading through similar question I asked a few years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716306
Lots of thoughtful responses.
Though people seem to have decent feedback, I'd be somewhat skeptical of any advice that hasn't been tested for at least a year and seems very confident. My problem is basically that I can last (for the exact same reasons as you) for about 6 months on any given project, before being burnt out or let go because my productivity grinds to untenable levels with a sufficiently unstimulating or untenable task list. I've been on medication for 3 years. It helps to a point to get through those patches, but you have to be consistent, and if you fuck up your sleep or can't get enough exercise, it can all go south. In my experience, I've only really been successful with a lot of autonomy and heterogeneous problems to solve.
Though people seem to have decent feedback, I'd be somewhat skeptical of any advice that hasn't been tested for at least a year and seems very confident. My problem is basically that I can last (for the exact same reasons as you) for about 6 months on any given project, before being burnt out or let go because my productivity grinds to untenable levels with a sufficiently unstimulating or untenable task list. I've been on medication for 3 years. It helps to a point to get through those patches, but you have to be consistent, and if you fuck up your sleep or can't get enough exercise, it can all go south. In my experience, I've only really been successful with a lot of autonomy and heterogeneous problems to solve.
Also my question few years back had good answers:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19989627
I'm currently transitioning from building the MVP for a startup to freelancing. I had pretty great 1.5 years (well, last half years not so...) but had a severe burn out and decided it's time to move on. The OP's story was so relatable to me.
I'm currently transitioning from building the MVP for a startup to freelancing. I had pretty great 1.5 years (well, last half years not so...) but had a severe burn out and decided it's time to move on. The OP's story was so relatable to me.
Well... I work at a company that makes a bunch of noise about neurodiversity and my honest opinion is it's been one of the worst experiences of my life due to certain elements of the structure/culture. I don't think it has anything to do with whether they are big on neurodiversity or not, just that it's no guarantee that you're going to be better off at a company that is. Us ADHDers are incredibly sensitive to the environment and if the environment is wrong then things don't go well for us. You need to optimize for environments in which you personally function well and not environments that virtue signal about neurodiversity.
Since you have a diagnosis you should find some cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and medications specific for ADHD. The meds will help you focus in the short term and the CBT will help you develop cognitive and behavioral tools to help you manage your ADHD for the long term.
One cognitive approach is to become mindful and curious about what triggers your ADHD. Are there any patterns or habits? What activities do you engage in when you feel bored with a task? ADHD is executive brain dysfunction so what you really need to do is engage/train your executive function skillset and build up your resilience for longer term rewards or to devalue the reward of task switching. Some people try to build structure into their environments so that they don't have to think about it.
So learn about ADHD and learn about what you can do to help yourself. That's the ultimate reward. Your ADHD makes you naturally creative etc... which is a valued skill.
In some sense ADHDers live in the future which is great but you still have to get things done. And accomplishment is the ultimate reward.
https://www.additudemag.com/brain-stimulation-and-adhd-cravi...
https://www.additudemag.com/what-is-executive-function-disor...
One cognitive approach is to become mindful and curious about what triggers your ADHD. Are there any patterns or habits? What activities do you engage in when you feel bored with a task? ADHD is executive brain dysfunction so what you really need to do is engage/train your executive function skillset and build up your resilience for longer term rewards or to devalue the reward of task switching. Some people try to build structure into their environments so that they don't have to think about it.
So learn about ADHD and learn about what you can do to help yourself. That's the ultimate reward. Your ADHD makes you naturally creative etc... which is a valued skill.
In some sense ADHDers live in the future which is great but you still have to get things done. And accomplishment is the ultimate reward.
https://www.additudemag.com/brain-stimulation-and-adhd-cravi...
https://www.additudemag.com/what-is-executive-function-disor...
No one wanted me and my ADHD and so I went out on my own. Now running a decently successful software/consultancy firm (not funded and not a single loan, I'm proud to say - edit: as in "told you I had it in me").
Of course this isn't an option for everyone, but starting your own business might be worth considering.
Of course this isn't an option for everyone, but starting your own business might be worth considering.
As a counterpoint: I also have ADHD and went out on my own. Without oversight and managing I performed absolutely terribly. The company I started produced nothing and I ended up worse off after the experience.
If you think starting a company/freelancing is right for you, by all means do it. But if you have had multiple failed jobs already because of your ADHD then think long and hard about giving yourself a job that arguably requires more executive function than a regular day job.
If you think starting a company/freelancing is right for you, by all means do it. But if you have had multiple failed jobs already because of your ADHD then think long and hard about giving yourself a job that arguably requires more executive function than a regular day job.
>As a counterpoint: I also have ADHD and went out on my own. Without oversight and managing I performed absolutely terribly. The company I started produced nothing and I ended up worse off after the experience.
Same. Was absolutely not for me. Some ADHDers go this route successfully, and especially if you can hire an assistant to handle some of the tasks that require more executive function, but there's plenty of us for whom it will just be a disaster. I think it's important for anyone thinking of going this route to give it a try and find if they're one of the ones who it does suit, but have a clear criteria that will allow you to evaluate how it's going for you and trigger an exit in a timely fashion if need be.
Same. Was absolutely not for me. Some ADHDers go this route successfully, and especially if you can hire an assistant to handle some of the tasks that require more executive function, but there's plenty of us for whom it will just be a disaster. I think it's important for anyone thinking of going this route to give it a try and find if they're one of the ones who it does suit, but have a clear criteria that will allow you to evaluate how it's going for you and trigger an exit in a timely fashion if need be.
As a business owner with ADHD - what are you thoughts on hiring people who also have the condition? Are you open to making the workplace more neurodivergent-friendly?
People with ADHD would be welcome - as long as I'm confident I can manage them (manage as in helping us both help each-other and the business). This would be the same advice I'd give to anyone hiring me.
Neurodivergent-friendliness is extremely broad, but generally, yes, being less of a dick to people who can't help being the way they are is always good :)
Neurodivergent-friendliness is extremely broad, but generally, yes, being less of a dick to people who can't help being the way they are is always good :)
>(manage as in helping us both help each-other and the business)
what a fantastic description
what a fantastic description
I'm not diagnosed with ADHD myself, in fact today is my first day of ADHD eval by a doctor. What you write is exactly how experience work.
One thing that came to mind is contract/freelance work. Go to a contracting agancy and tell them you want to work on 3-6 month contracts. I'm currently in the process of doing this. I hope few things come out of this.
1) my brain stays engaged
2) my happniess increases
3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects
One thing that came to mind is contract/freelance work. Go to a contracting agancy and tell them you want to work on 3-6 month contracts. I'm currently in the process of doing this. I hope few things come out of this.
1) my brain stays engaged
2) my happniess increases
3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects
Related question: I think I’d really like to work part-time so I can properly multi task on my personal projects and for-money work, rather than have this all-or-nothing choice every 3+ months. Do you have any advice you could give me about that?
Ask around recruiters on LinkedIn they would know for sure. Freelancing is also an option for short term projects. I know a couple of local companies that offer 4-6 hour work contracts, but it's hard to find. Ask your current employer if they are willing to do this. Something in the line of "Hey X, I want to pursue my passion project, so I Am willing to take a paycut and work 4hrs/day (3 of 5 days is also an option), can we arrange that as I like working with you"
Without exposing myself too much that's what I'm doing right now. But while the contracting agency I work for is really great but it's also very massive and I feel very desolated, especially since my last contract was the "build me the forms" which drained the soul out of me.
Mind expanding on what you mean by 'desolated'?
Sure - I'm used to problems on my contract but usually when something went wrong I knew I could count on my agency to step in. Conflict resolution, 3rd person perspective needs analysis, project re-assessment and stuff like that (even to the point of body swap if needed). But as we grew unfortunately it become more of a "don't worry, we have insurance and lawyers". Project was heavily understaffed and neither me or client could get in contact with representatives to get additional help.
That sounds closer to “abandoned” or “neglected”.
I'm sorry, you scratched the itch, and I'm anonymous so I'll allow to indulge myself :)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/desolate
TBH I had to check it though.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/desolate
TBH I had to check it though.
> 3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects
This is the part that didn't work so well in my experience. With each project I was at first in "working" mode, then in "time off" mode (which usually meant working on personal stuff for free), and then suddenly in "need to find a new paying project asap" panic mode when the savings were running out. With each next project my financial situation had to be worse in order to successfully trigger panic mode, so I quickly started to look for something longer-term instead.
This is the part that didn't work so well in my experience. With each project I was at first in "working" mode, then in "time off" mode (which usually meant working on personal stuff for free), and then suddenly in "need to find a new paying project asap" panic mode when the savings were running out. With each next project my financial situation had to be worse in order to successfully trigger panic mode, so I quickly started to look for something longer-term instead.
This sounds like a pretty good strategy for me too. I'm completely ignorant about consulting agencies though - I assume there good ones, bad ones, etc? Can anyone recommend ones in the UK?
Look around on LinkedIn and ask your tech friends/(ex)colleagues. A friend of mine works at EPAM and is extremely happy there. That's the only recommendation I can make, based on their feedback, I'm even considering joining them.
If there's a program to create work environments for people who experience mortal battles with burnout, procrastination and self-doubt when things are stale and there's nothing to do but boring forms, then that sounds like something I'd quite like to get into myself, even without having ADHD.
It's quite interesting, but I believe that procrastination and burnout are rather obvious signs of ADHD and if you experience this you should verify this.
I'm a huge mental health advocate and I've been such for years (I worked with a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists when doing deep interpersonal training for business purposes and I built a lot of trust toward field) and I've been working constantly with therapists, have friends who are psychiatrists etc.
Yet no one, at any point suggested this might be ADHD because:
- ADHD has a lot of bad press (as something that is result of bad parenthood - which is false, that's genetics)
- ADHD in adults is somewhat new (where I live there all the meds are prescription only for children with note that they shouldn't be used for adults)
- ADHD adults are either successful (because they overcame hardships and are perceived as very interesting people in general) so they don't seek help or very miserable (dropping jobs, partners etc.) - they can't afford diagnosis and treatment
- ADHD in women is severely underdiagnosed (because it's attributed to hormonal mood swings)
- ADHD is often used as a joke, so people treat it as joke
- ADHD often gives symptoms that might be diagnosed as substance addiction, bi-polar personality, neuroticism, anger issues etc., people treat this for years and it doesn't help
- If you get in the wrong basket it's really hard to get out of it (I was working with different set of issues)
And that was for more then a decade. I decided to diagnose myself with specialist only after lately I couldn't focus on anything absolutely at all. I had weeks were I didn't do anything I really wanted - that wasn't normal and I went to a huge stretch to find out what that was.
I'm a huge mental health advocate and I've been such for years (I worked with a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists when doing deep interpersonal training for business purposes and I built a lot of trust toward field) and I've been working constantly with therapists, have friends who are psychiatrists etc.
Yet no one, at any point suggested this might be ADHD because:
- ADHD has a lot of bad press (as something that is result of bad parenthood - which is false, that's genetics)
- ADHD in adults is somewhat new (where I live there all the meds are prescription only for children with note that they shouldn't be used for adults)
- ADHD adults are either successful (because they overcame hardships and are perceived as very interesting people in general) so they don't seek help or very miserable (dropping jobs, partners etc.) - they can't afford diagnosis and treatment
- ADHD in women is severely underdiagnosed (because it's attributed to hormonal mood swings)
- ADHD is often used as a joke, so people treat it as joke
- ADHD often gives symptoms that might be diagnosed as substance addiction, bi-polar personality, neuroticism, anger issues etc., people treat this for years and it doesn't help
- If you get in the wrong basket it's really hard to get out of it (I was working with different set of issues)
And that was for more then a decade. I decided to diagnose myself with specialist only after lately I couldn't focus on anything absolutely at all. I had weeks were I didn't do anything I really wanted - that wasn't normal and I went to a huge stretch to find out what that was.
> It's quite interesting, but I believe that procrastination and burnout are rather obvious signs of ADHD and if you experience this you should verify this.
My guess is that procrastination and burnout are signs that work in our society is just not a good fit for our mental needs (see also immense popularity of video games, which provide "fake work" that is closer to what we need). I suspect there were no procrastination, burnout, ADHD and other mental afflictions among hunters-gatherers.
My guess is that procrastination and burnout are signs that work in our society is just not a good fit for our mental needs (see also immense popularity of video games, which provide "fake work" that is closer to what we need). I suspect there were no procrastination, burnout, ADHD and other mental afflictions among hunters-gatherers.
Couldn't agree more. I don't see it as a reflection of my own mental state or mental health at all, just as a reflection of the fact that it's time to start looking for a new job.
I think that it is quite common for software engineers to have a feeling of being badly attuned to their work environments and then misattribute that as a problem that lies within themselves rather than their work environments.
I even feel that some management practices common to our field are basically a form of psychological abuse, akin to gaslighting, which provide to the employee a false reality where everything that goes wrong is their own fault. For example yearly reviews and institutionalized continuous feedback cultures tend to create a lot of salience around what an employee is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of management, while seldom allowing any iota of attention to fall on questions about what the company is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of the employee.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was something that ended up actually causing mental disorders in employees. This is pure speculation, but our field does have very poor stats on mental health [1]. A competing explanation is that our field is attractive to people with pre-existing problems and therefore draws in people with mental disorder, rather than creating mental disorder. Or maybe it's a combination of both.
[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demog...
I think that it is quite common for software engineers to have a feeling of being badly attuned to their work environments and then misattribute that as a problem that lies within themselves rather than their work environments.
I even feel that some management practices common to our field are basically a form of psychological abuse, akin to gaslighting, which provide to the employee a false reality where everything that goes wrong is their own fault. For example yearly reviews and institutionalized continuous feedback cultures tend to create a lot of salience around what an employee is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of management, while seldom allowing any iota of attention to fall on questions about what the company is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of the employee.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was something that ended up actually causing mental disorders in employees. This is pure speculation, but our field does have very poor stats on mental health [1]. A competing explanation is that our field is attractive to people with pre-existing problems and therefore draws in people with mental disorder, rather than creating mental disorder. Or maybe it's a combination of both.
[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demog...
BTW: adhd_thraway Can you provide an e-mail or other way to reach out 1:1? There might be an opportunity for a collaboration here.
Sure, it's anonymized though, cause I'd rather this thread to drown slightly so it's harder to link to (yeah, I can reply btw. from same address):
koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com
koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com
> see also immense popularity of video games, which provide "fake work" that is closer to what we need
Or sports, or hobbies in general.
Or sports, or hobbies in general.
ADHD brains are physically different. You can see it with MRI. I suspect ADHD hunter gatherers hated weaving.
I wonder how robust those findings actually are, especially for high-functioning persons in the ADHD spectrum where the symptoms are not clinically debilitating.
I'm thinking now of how f-MRI is notoriously difficult to get right in methodological terms [1] while at the same time providing an all-to-convenient path for psychologists wanting to add credibility to their claims by tying them into physiological manifestation. I know next to nothing about the field though, so who knows. ...just expressing baseline scepticism I guess.
[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/fmri-gets-slap-in-the-...
I'm thinking now of how f-MRI is notoriously difficult to get right in methodological terms [1] while at the same time providing an all-to-convenient path for psychologists wanting to add credibility to their claims by tying them into physiological manifestation. I know next to nothing about the field though, so who knows. ...just expressing baseline scepticism I guess.
[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/fmri-gets-slap-in-the-...
The problem with FMRI is fishing for correlations in an ocean of variables without adjusting the calculations. Structural MRI finding physical differences where older evidence predicted is very different.
Organisms are analog. Why would you expect marginally symptomatic brains to be clearly distinct?
Organisms are analog. Why would you expect marginally symptomatic brains to be clearly distinct?
Not applicable to ADHD, but for Autism spectrum there is Specialisterne, a danish foundation that works with employers.
International: https://www.specialisterne.com/
US: https://www.us.specialisterne.com/
Specialisterne Foundation is an international, award winning social enterprise setting the “gold standard” for neurodiversity employment. Specialisterne was founded in 2004 by Thorkil Sonne after Sonne’s young son was diagnosed with the disorder, when he realized we should focus on the ability of neurodiversity: attention to detail, high accuracy, innovative thinking, loyalty and honesty rather than the “disability”.
International: https://www.specialisterne.com/
US: https://www.us.specialisterne.com/
Specialisterne Foundation is an international, award winning social enterprise setting the “gold standard” for neurodiversity employment. Specialisterne was founded in 2004 by Thorkil Sonne after Sonne’s young son was diagnosed with the disorder, when he realized we should focus on the ability of neurodiversity: attention to detail, high accuracy, innovative thinking, loyalty and honesty rather than the “disability”.
I literally just off the phone to my GP trying to get a referral for an adult ADHD diagnosis.
She basically said, there's a massive backlog and underfunding of the service, and instead of her referring me to the adult ADHD and autism psychology services directly I should approach a more generic NHS Adult Mental Health service and try to get them to refer me for a diagnosis, or write a letter asking her to. Just seems like a bit of a ringmarole.
She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.
Is this the experience other people have had, especially in the UK?
She basically said, there's a massive backlog and underfunding of the service, and instead of her referring me to the adult ADHD and autism psychology services directly I should approach a more generic NHS Adult Mental Health service and try to get them to refer me for a diagnosis, or write a letter asking her to. Just seems like a bit of a ringmarole.
She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.
Is this the experience other people have had, especially in the UK?
UK here. Your GP is right about the massive backlog in mental health referrals (2+ years in my area) but wrong about prescription charges & the NHS recognising a diagnosis from a private psychiatrist.
Because of that huge backlog I went for a private diagnosis & prescription and then had that prescription transferred to my local GP under what's known as a 'Shared Care Agreement', so my scrip cost ~£110 per year (buy a Prescription Prepayment Certificate or 'season pass').
I know people who've managed to circumvent the waiting list (and private fees) using 'Right to choose' but I understand that can vary depending on your local health authority. Certainly worth exploring though.
Because of that huge backlog I went for a private diagnosis & prescription and then had that prescription transferred to my local GP under what's known as a 'Shared Care Agreement', so my scrip cost ~£110 per year (buy a Prescription Prepayment Certificate or 'season pass').
I know people who've managed to circumvent the waiting list (and private fees) using 'Right to choose' but I understand that can vary depending on your local health authority. Certainly worth exploring though.
May I ask how you decided where to go for a private diagnosis ?
As another waiting-list referral, I would consider going the same route but have no idea where best to look (and whether they may have shared care agreements or not).
It's really helpful to see all of these replies from the UK.
As another waiting-list referral, I would consider going the same route but have no idea where best to look (and whether they may have shared care agreements or not).
It's really helpful to see all of these replies from the UK.
> She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.
I'm in the UK and this is not my experience so far.
You do need to be careful about private diagnosis and the handoff to NHS for treatment - it's true that it's not guaranteed that a private diagnosis will be accepted by the NHS to pick up treatment, but in my experience it's not the case that they will totally refuse to recognise a private diagnosis as you've been told. That may just be the position of the individual you spoke to, rather than a reflection of what you'd find across the board in the UK.
If you go the private route, it will likely help if the private practitioner is also a registered/practicing NHS doctor. If you're considering this, it may be worth speaking to the practitioner about the process for handover of care to the NHS - which they should be able to clarify for you before you spend any money with them!
I'm in the UK and this is not my experience so far.
You do need to be careful about private diagnosis and the handoff to NHS for treatment - it's true that it's not guaranteed that a private diagnosis will be accepted by the NHS to pick up treatment, but in my experience it's not the case that they will totally refuse to recognise a private diagnosis as you've been told. That may just be the position of the individual you spoke to, rather than a reflection of what you'd find across the board in the UK.
If you go the private route, it will likely help if the private practitioner is also a registered/practicing NHS doctor. If you're considering this, it may be worth speaking to the practitioner about the process for handover of care to the NHS - which they should be able to clarify for you before you spend any money with them!
I was referred by my GP over a year ago for an adult ADHD diagnosis. I used the NHS Right To Choose so that I could use a private clinic, however even with them the wait has been a year and they're saying the earliest I'm going to be seen is October. My GP has contacted me to say there's a new service they're starting soon and that I've been referred there too, but they couldn't tell me how long the wait would be - basically they said to go with whichever one is available first.
If you can get a referral from your doctor, I would have a look at Right To Choose and go with someone private like Psychiatry UK as you shouldn't have to pay, the NHS will take the cost of that. (Also a note that paying them money doesn't get you seen any quicker, I've tried asking)
If you can get a referral from your doctor, I would have a look at Right To Choose and go with someone private like Psychiatry UK as you shouldn't have to pay, the NHS will take the cost of that. (Also a note that paying them money doesn't get you seen any quicker, I've tried asking)
In my experience, the NHS will only diagnose severe cases of ADHD in children. Everything else is a struggle, like most mental health services on the NHS unfortunately. I think the best option is to get a private diagnosis - I am considering this myself actually.
We got a private diagnosis for my son (to save potentially a year waiting) and that was recognised by the NHS paediatrician.
Horrible experience with his school though, that’s another story!
Horrible experience with his school though, that’s another story!
Like others I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, 31, 10 months ago and I have been taking medication since then. I am also in EU.
Nothing major to add, since there are some good comments from other commentators. Retrospectively I have realised ADHD has been perhaps an advantage in some areas. But additionally an absolute self sabatoge generating machine for the seemingly simplest of things.
Currently near the end my contract, being thinking more about the future. Full stack dev too. If you ever just want to chat and share stories of ridiculous periods procrastination, self doubt and future plans I'm always willing to chat.
I know speaking things out loud for me has lifted the veil of self doubt that can descend upon one after a bout of ill directed attention.
Nothing major to add, since there are some good comments from other commentators. Retrospectively I have realised ADHD has been perhaps an advantage in some areas. But additionally an absolute self sabatoge generating machine for the seemingly simplest of things.
Currently near the end my contract, being thinking more about the future. Full stack dev too. If you ever just want to chat and share stories of ridiculous periods procrastination, self doubt and future plans I'm always willing to chat.
I know speaking things out loud for me has lifted the veil of self doubt that can descend upon one after a bout of ill directed attention.
I was diagnosed at 25, about a year ago. I relate to the comment about ADHD being an advantage. I've often thought my brain is well suited to the information age. My home reflects this, I keep a lot of things in plain sight that stimulate my curiosity.
We live in times of unprecedented peace and prosperity, and rather than seeing my wiring as a liability, I see it is a competitive advantage. I may not have all the same strengths, but the ones I have can be very well leveraged.
We live in times of unprecedented peace and prosperity, and rather than seeing my wiring as a liability, I see it is a competitive advantage. I may not have all the same strengths, but the ones I have can be very well leveraged.
Can you share what it was like to start medication?
My company says it is, but I won't list it here - it's a lie. They talk a big game, then can't answer questions. Like advertising that they are partnering with a neurodiversity contracting agency, then not being able to answer if there are resources for employees who are neurodiverse. Should be a pretty easy question to answer - yes, here they are; or no.
Have you considered consulting? While most typical friends of mine don't like consulting gig and only start there to get connections, I know some ADHD tendency people to do quite well in consulting. If you get bored, you can always look for another project. (some of the people I know even started their own consulting after creating their own network)
This is interesting.
What are you looking for specifically? What does a neurodiversity program look like at a company? What, to you, makes a company neurodiversity-friendly?
What are you looking for specifically? What does a neurodiversity program look like at a company? What, to you, makes a company neurodiversity-friendly?
If I'm to be 100% honest - I have no idea and thus I'm looking slightly to stand on the shoulders of the giants, who most likely know better than I do. Neurodiversity is... diverse. I could probably write a book about my experiences and they wouldn't match the next person with ADHD (at least not completely).
Describing the "perfect" organization for me that would probably be company that allowed me to switch between projects and technologies quickly while having "cleanup crew" in form of QA or an introvert who would be happy when not bothered.
The best employers/clients I ever had were the ones who had the silent "I sit and cut all the loose things" type of person, that allowed us to have perfect synergy, as I was frontman dealing with meetings, arguing on architecture doing the high-level designs and they were working on things that I missed (and there were plenty). I always - however - made sure they got recognition, both directly (assuring that if it wasn't for them I would progress at all) and in team environment.
Thus I think that if someone would be able to recognize traits that come with ADHD they would both help me feel better about stuff and could also juice more out of me (which I personally love, since I thrive in hard, legacy code with hundreds of engineering and business problems and IT is something I choose very consciously). This also comes with the fact, that someone has to recognize downtime and help me manage it, as ADHD is prone to obsessions and burnout, thus I quite often end up working 12h at 8h job while forgetting to go for lunch.
In summary - while I don't know it's either company that knows what they're doing and have a specialists for that, or company that would like to work with ADHD people.
Describing the "perfect" organization for me that would probably be company that allowed me to switch between projects and technologies quickly while having "cleanup crew" in form of QA or an introvert who would be happy when not bothered.
The best employers/clients I ever had were the ones who had the silent "I sit and cut all the loose things" type of person, that allowed us to have perfect synergy, as I was frontman dealing with meetings, arguing on architecture doing the high-level designs and they were working on things that I missed (and there were plenty). I always - however - made sure they got recognition, both directly (assuring that if it wasn't for them I would progress at all) and in team environment.
Thus I think that if someone would be able to recognize traits that come with ADHD they would both help me feel better about stuff and could also juice more out of me (which I personally love, since I thrive in hard, legacy code with hundreds of engineering and business problems and IT is something I choose very consciously). This also comes with the fact, that someone has to recognize downtime and help me manage it, as ADHD is prone to obsessions and burnout, thus I quite often end up working 12h at 8h job while forgetting to go for lunch.
In summary - while I don't know it's either company that knows what they're doing and have a specialists for that, or company that would like to work with ADHD people.
Have you tried consulting? I can recognise a lot of what you describe in myself, and as a fellow recently enlightened ADHD (though I dislike the term) person who has spent quite a few years working in this type of environment, I can totally see why it's a really good fit. Some of the biggest firms are starting to recognise this and are targeting their marketing towards folks like us:
https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2021/07/ey-launches-first-neur...
It's not all roses of course. Happy to share my experience, if useful.
It's not all roses of course. Happy to share my experience, if useful.
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I've actually moved into management because it's very on-demand in many ways, which means I don't need as much self motivation and deep focus as an engineer. People I have to see in meetings are expecting me and the scope and diversity of stuff I work on is significantly increased. People would think it's the other way around as a manager, but it's not as much as you think. I still rely on writing a lot of things down to keep myself structured and make plans too. So far my reports and my manager are pretty happy with me as far as I can tell.
Also going into therapy and getting meds will also help you a bunch. I think that will be more effective than necessarily trying to find the right kind of company. Try looking at this guide about adderal by a psychiatrist: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/10/30/adderall/
Also going into therapy and getting meds will also help you a bunch. I think that will be more effective than necessarily trying to find the right kind of company. Try looking at this guide about adderal by a psychiatrist: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/10/30/adderall/
Good luck. I’d have to consider whether or not a company that used it as an actual hiring criteria was doing me a favor, though.
First, in the US, I’m not exactly sure it would be legal. We have the ADA, which basically states that we shouldn’t use what are considered “disabilities,” as a negative. Not sure what it says for positive.
I’m not sure about the EU, but, from my experience, European nations tend to have even stricter rules than the US.
In my case, my own neurodiversity has been a real asset. It’s made me an excellent programmer, and has certainly been key to my basic success.
I was a manager, for 25 years. That’s fairly unusual for aspies, as “people skills” are not often our strong suit.
Which brings me to the work environment. If the company has a management career path that includes promoting aspies into management, it may be great, as I think that it’s important that managers have empathy for their employees, but it might also be a difficult place to work, as we don’t always make the best managers (I feel as if I was an exception, but there were some “out of band” factors in my personal development, that probably made a huge difference –but that’s a story for another day).
The other possibility, is that the managers are all neurotypical, which makes me wonder about the career path.
In my experience, I started at my last company, on the same exact day, as another engineer, who was almost Central Casting for “aspie coder” (I’m a bit “dorky,” but it’s not as obvious, for me). We worked together for 27 years, until they finally closed down our department. For most of that time, I was his boss.
I have no problem admitting that he’s a far better coder and tactician than I ever was, but I have my doubts that he would have been as good a manager. On the other hand, I was pretty much a perfect manager for him, and he thrived in the department. He is now working for a well-known European megacorp, and I hope that they give him the space he needs to work. He’s an amazing engineer, and it was an honor to work with him.
First, in the US, I’m not exactly sure it would be legal. We have the ADA, which basically states that we shouldn’t use what are considered “disabilities,” as a negative. Not sure what it says for positive.
I’m not sure about the EU, but, from my experience, European nations tend to have even stricter rules than the US.
In my case, my own neurodiversity has been a real asset. It’s made me an excellent programmer, and has certainly been key to my basic success.
I was a manager, for 25 years. That’s fairly unusual for aspies, as “people skills” are not often our strong suit.
Which brings me to the work environment. If the company has a management career path that includes promoting aspies into management, it may be great, as I think that it’s important that managers have empathy for their employees, but it might also be a difficult place to work, as we don’t always make the best managers (I feel as if I was an exception, but there were some “out of band” factors in my personal development, that probably made a huge difference –but that’s a story for another day).
The other possibility, is that the managers are all neurotypical, which makes me wonder about the career path.
In my experience, I started at my last company, on the same exact day, as another engineer, who was almost Central Casting for “aspie coder” (I’m a bit “dorky,” but it’s not as obvious, for me). We worked together for 27 years, until they finally closed down our department. For most of that time, I was his boss.
I have no problem admitting that he’s a far better coder and tactician than I ever was, but I have my doubts that he would have been as good a manager. On the other hand, I was pretty much a perfect manager for him, and he thrived in the department. He is now working for a well-known European megacorp, and I hope that they give him the space he needs to work. He’s an amazing engineer, and it was an honor to work with him.
A few years back I stumbled on a good article that someone had written regarding ADHD: https://gekk.info/articles/adhd.html
I have since used it a few times as a tool to help people to better understand me and my quirks, I can say that it has helped in this regard and have often found that people tend to be slightly more conscious/considerate after reading about the struggles that people with ADHD have to face on a daily basis. It’s not that I want sympathy, it’s just that some people truly just do not understand that the reasons why things can be like this, yes they can take it as lazy, tardiness, my being uninterested or just generally unmotivated or side tracked but the reality of the matter is that these are aspects that I still struggle with on a daily basis and I don’t feel like I could ever reach a point where I have defeated them. So the understanding on their part does go a long way in helping me to feel better about myself and in turn, more capable of doing a good job. That’s what counts to them?
I would suggest that you give the article a read through too, or anyone who is wondering if they perhaps fall somewhere within this spectrum as it may help them to better understand themselves too.
I can recommend consulting if you have a good handle on your ability to keep yourself motivated over the long term, that you can communicate your position well and have the ability, to some degree to meet practical deadlines.
If you do not have a handle on things like this, stop to think first at the amount of damage you could do to a business by becoming a consultant and working for them because you need to be a strong person to pull that off for many, many years running.
Personally and although experience has helped to improve on these aspects, I see them as fundamental flaws that I have little control over even on the best of days. In reality what I need too, is a good crew that can help to keep me on track or simply patch up the stuff that I have since left behind. That and no projects that last for more than a few months :-)
Best of luck in life to you all!
I have since used it a few times as a tool to help people to better understand me and my quirks, I can say that it has helped in this regard and have often found that people tend to be slightly more conscious/considerate after reading about the struggles that people with ADHD have to face on a daily basis. It’s not that I want sympathy, it’s just that some people truly just do not understand that the reasons why things can be like this, yes they can take it as lazy, tardiness, my being uninterested or just generally unmotivated or side tracked but the reality of the matter is that these are aspects that I still struggle with on a daily basis and I don’t feel like I could ever reach a point where I have defeated them. So the understanding on their part does go a long way in helping me to feel better about myself and in turn, more capable of doing a good job. That’s what counts to them?
I would suggest that you give the article a read through too, or anyone who is wondering if they perhaps fall somewhere within this spectrum as it may help them to better understand themselves too.
I can recommend consulting if you have a good handle on your ability to keep yourself motivated over the long term, that you can communicate your position well and have the ability, to some degree to meet practical deadlines.
If you do not have a handle on things like this, stop to think first at the amount of damage you could do to a business by becoming a consultant and working for them because you need to be a strong person to pull that off for many, many years running.
Personally and although experience has helped to improve on these aspects, I see them as fundamental flaws that I have little control over even on the best of days. In reality what I need too, is a good crew that can help to keep me on track or simply patch up the stuff that I have since left behind. That and no projects that last for more than a few months :-)
Best of luck in life to you all!
This one is fully remote: https://www.fastcompany.com/90339945/75-of-staff-at-this-suc...
This one is not and is based in California, but I'd still keep an eye on them in case they decide to add remote positions: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/21/magazine/auti...
This one is not and is based in California, but I'd still keep an eye on them in case they decide to add remote positions: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/21/magazine/auti...
ADHD is recognized as a disability that employers are required to make accommodations for under the ADA (in the US). If you disclose your ADHD diagnosis to your employer, they are required to take reasonable measures to enable you to do your job. I have not gone through this process myself however, so I cannot vouch for how it would go for anyone else and YMMV. Here's a resource to explore this option further:
https://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/asking-for-workplace-accommoda...
https://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/asking-for-workplace-accommoda...
Sorry not fully related to your question, but I've been asked a couple times in the past whether I've got ADHD because I'm constantly humming or tapping my desk while I multi task on 4 things, or when its time to work on new projects I just go 100% beast for a day or few days, getting a lot done, and then just crashing (sometimes for a whole week) because I can't focus on anything. Do I just ask a doctor to test me? How do I even approach this
Yes - please don't self diagnose.
ADHD in adults is somewhat new and some specialist either don't know or downplay it so keep that in mind. I'd suggest getting to the ADHD Adult specialist/clinic in the area. Depending on the country it might take short or long time to get diagnosed (for myself it took around 6 weekly 1.5h meetings, tests and family interviews), but I know this might vary depending on where you live.
ADHD in adults is somewhat new and some specialist either don't know or downplay it so keep that in mind. I'd suggest getting to the ADHD Adult specialist/clinic in the area. Depending on the country it might take short or long time to get diagnosed (for myself it took around 6 weekly 1.5h meetings, tests and family interviews), but I know this might vary depending on where you live.
My girlfriend was diagnosed with bipolar in her childhood and her whole life was a cycle of new prescription drugs and stop taking them when she realized they change her way to much without helping a lot.
I basically diagnosed her with ADHD (no specialist) we found out someone else already did before me but they never looked into it (mostly because you can barely mix meds for bipolar and adhs)
So essentially we got her a ADHS specialist who confirmed my idea and gave her ritalin.
Totally new person. It's 100% her, not 30-50% her depending on the day. They just started to even stop other medications to focus on ADHD more.
Point is: Yes it's somewhat new, and yes it likely would help a lot of people.
I too have ADD but I don't like amphetamines so often. I essentially went the way to turn my life upside down to build my own environment I enjoy to work in.
I basically diagnosed her with ADHD (no specialist) we found out someone else already did before me but they never looked into it (mostly because you can barely mix meds for bipolar and adhs)
So essentially we got her a ADHS specialist who confirmed my idea and gave her ritalin.
Totally new person. It's 100% her, not 30-50% her depending on the day. They just started to even stop other medications to focus on ADHD more.
Point is: Yes it's somewhat new, and yes it likely would help a lot of people.
I too have ADD but I don't like amphetamines so often. I essentially went the way to turn my life upside down to build my own environment I enjoy to work in.
I think many who have 'adult' ADHD probably had a form of it as a child, but had early interventions or other mitigating factors that made them not assessed as a child. Such as being poor, or being an ADHD inattentive type, or a girl (ADHD can show up differently in girls vs boys), or an inattentive 'twice exceptional' who is also highly intelligent, so they were well behaved and did 'good enough' in school that nobody really thought to give them a neuro-psychological assessment. Or their undiagnosed ADHD parents think their ADHD kid is normal, because it's close to their behavior set and thus never really thought of it being an issue.
I can tell you directly that ADHD adults always had an ADHD when they were children, as that's not something you develop, it's just more like a skin color or a body build. Our minds just work differently.
ADHD isn't necessarily "hyperactivity" neither, sometimes it doesn't show till later years or even ever. Thus there are forms such as ADD, and ADHD in girls/women manifest vastly differently.
It's genetics. Depending on the study ADHD is genetic condition with 70%+ (latest high figure I heard is 77%) chance of passing down the children and around 30% occurrence in the 2nd degree. It's also additive, meaning that if both parents have mild-moderate ADHD the child has chance to hit a neurology jackpot. Based on family story I can exactly tell who have it in my family and it spans quite long. So when for example someone smashes a window or falls and bruises often it's quite often "oh it's always been like this with boys in our family" which is another gate preventing proper diagnosis and management.
ADHD isn't necessarily "hyperactivity" neither, sometimes it doesn't show till later years or even ever. Thus there are forms such as ADD, and ADHD in girls/women manifest vastly differently.
It's genetics. Depending on the study ADHD is genetic condition with 70%+ (latest high figure I heard is 77%) chance of passing down the children and around 30% occurrence in the 2nd degree. It's also additive, meaning that if both parents have mild-moderate ADHD the child has chance to hit a neurology jackpot. Based on family story I can exactly tell who have it in my family and it spans quite long. So when for example someone smashes a window or falls and bruises often it's quite often "oh it's always been like this with boys in our family" which is another gate preventing proper diagnosis and management.
I'd suggest having a look at the self screening tool on adhduk, which gives you an indication of whether you have adhd symptoms. If so, it might make sense to pursue a formal evaluation and diagnosis.
The tool's been put together with the WHO:
https://adhduk.co.uk/adult-adhd-screening-survey/
The tool's been put together with the WHO:
https://adhduk.co.uk/adult-adhd-screening-survey/
I'm not sure if we fit your description but our "core hours" are 10-16, which is a bit different from other companies in the industry: and there's a lot more focus on getting tasks done vs being in the office with your arse in the seat (though how much of that is COVID? unsure, but the company culture is affected a lot by how we worked during the pandemic as this is when most people got onboarded- we more than quadrupled in size since the start of the pandemic).
I believe I have ADHD, I'm seeking a diagnosis (or at the very least for someone to confirm that I'm just extremely lazy), which in Sweden is actually very difficult, and so far this has been the best company to work for.
That said: I personally have a lot of responsibility, and with responsibility comes more "free reign" on what needs to happen -- this is definitely where I lack the focus to understand what needs to happen next as I get paralysed when there's equally important tasks.. This is not the case for the majority of my company though.
We're hiring. https://career.sharkmob.com
I believe I have ADHD, I'm seeking a diagnosis (or at the very least for someone to confirm that I'm just extremely lazy), which in Sweden is actually very difficult, and so far this has been the best company to work for.
That said: I personally have a lot of responsibility, and with responsibility comes more "free reign" on what needs to happen -- this is definitely where I lack the focus to understand what needs to happen next as I get paralysed when there's equally important tasks.. This is not the case for the majority of my company though.
We're hiring. https://career.sharkmob.com
6 hours for core hours? That’s practically no flexibility at all.
I think the question has not much to do with ADHD. A lot of people hate boring stupid tasks. Let's say maybe more than 50%. Maybe they can deal with it better then someone with ADHD.
Anyway. What you are looking for might be a consultant position, or working in a startup. By the way in my opinion, anything you do will have a bit of boring/unpleasant stuff.
Anyway. What you are looking for might be a consultant position, or working in a startup. By the way in my opinion, anything you do will have a bit of boring/unpleasant stuff.
Have you considered doing your own thing? Whatever it is you are best at or you enjoy doing most.
Setting my own scopes and work hours really really helped to get things done. Allowing myself to procastinate for weeks if necessary makes sure one day I will be full of energy for whatever project is waiting for me.
I always struggled in work environments because of imposter syndrome, stress, sometimes a endless cycle of tiredness because I couldn't get enough sleep but a job requires to wake up early.
I sometimes look for remote jobs, but daily standup meetings, fixed online times and stuff like this simply are requiring to much structure I don't, and don't want to, have.
Before I actually quit the thing that helped me most was working less. By only doing a 4 days week I somehow was able to focus way better and enjoy work a lot more. I came late on Monday and took a joker afternoon when I wanted to every week. Still the best work/life balance I ever had in a job
Setting my own scopes and work hours really really helped to get things done. Allowing myself to procastinate for weeks if necessary makes sure one day I will be full of energy for whatever project is waiting for me.
I always struggled in work environments because of imposter syndrome, stress, sometimes a endless cycle of tiredness because I couldn't get enough sleep but a job requires to wake up early.
I sometimes look for remote jobs, but daily standup meetings, fixed online times and stuff like this simply are requiring to much structure I don't, and don't want to, have.
Before I actually quit the thing that helped me most was working less. By only doing a 4 days week I somehow was able to focus way better and enjoy work a lot more. I came late on Monday and took a joker afternoon when I wanted to every week. Still the best work/life balance I ever had in a job
About 20% of our team has ADHD and are thriving. We found this out when trying to do some internal usability testing on our UI. We don't explicitly target being ADHD friendly, but actively endeavor to be a good employer for all sorts of neurodiversity. We view people as individuals and manage and allocate tasks with awareness of each person's strengths. We're hiring for people to work on our UI as well as our compiler, scheduler, and hardware device drivers. If you're interested, send me an email at halie at radix.bio. I can say that we're extremely good at keeping people from getting bored since we have more interesting problems than time.
IMO find companies that are remote friendly, even if you go into the office, and do not value ass in chair time. They are more likely to not care if you show up late one day, or don’t get much done one day.
I see a lot of comments on medication here, but you should know it is not the most effective treatment. Rephrased, medication alone will not be enough to overcome ADHD. The advice I received was that, it will help me do the things which will help my ADHD. For example, breaking large tasks into smaller ones, bullet journaling, etc.
Lastly read “Driven to Distraction”.
I see a lot of comments on medication here, but you should know it is not the most effective treatment. Rephrased, medication alone will not be enough to overcome ADHD. The advice I received was that, it will help me do the things which will help my ADHD. For example, breaking large tasks into smaller ones, bullet journaling, etc.
Lastly read “Driven to Distraction”.
Hey,from my experience, things you can try are :
- Consulting/contracting (not freelance as it creates uncertainty and that could lead to stress)
- Design agencies (Front End/Design Technologist)
- Advertising Agencies who have a larger variety of projects (Technologist)
Hope that helps.
An example job I searched is based in Madrid: https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/jobs/view/2908478547
- Consulting/contracting (not freelance as it creates uncertainty and that could lead to stress)
- Design agencies (Front End/Design Technologist)
- Advertising Agencies who have a larger variety of projects (Technologist)
Hope that helps.
An example job I searched is based in Madrid: https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/jobs/view/2908478547
Red Hat has a community for neurodiversity. It's one of several groups for people with similar needs.
Generally, I think many people recommend Red Hat as an employer.
Generally, I think many people recommend Red Hat as an employer.
I feel pretty much everywhere with permanent WFH is ok for neurodivergent folk. I'm in the spectrum and I know this setup is so much better for me.
As an ADHDer who has been working all remote for the last 6 months after changing jobs I found it has been an absolutely anxiety inducing nightmare for me as I'm expected to pair program all the time but I'm hopeless at co-ordinating work with my team mates and my mind can just never relax as a result. I'm putting in my notice soon and returning to an office.
Thank you all for your contribution. I'm going to leave this throwaway. However if you'd have any question or just wanted to connect here's my anonymized e-mail. I can respond with it (just checked) but I'd rather remain anonymous for some time (like week or two).
Those who left their contact information and recommendation I'll be reaching out to soon. Once again thanks!
koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com
Those who left their contact information and recommendation I'll be reaching out to soon. Once again thanks!
koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com
Check out WildCardPeople, [1] a specialized job board that should fit your description. While it is not "an ADHD job board", my understanding is that they care about the ADHD community, and they seek out employers who would benefit from the strengths that many ADHD people exhibit.
1: https://wildcardpeople.com/
1: https://wildcardpeople.com/
"Wildcard People was a success, but turned into a normal tech job board. That's not what I wanted.
I will be changing how this works in the coming months."
I can recommend the "Additude ADHD Experts Podcast" where clinical psychiatrists, neurologists and therapists detail their approaches. Apparently something that works really well is pairing up someone with ADHD with someone who is more systematic. E.g. having someone with ADHD do prototypes and someone behind that who fleshes things out.
Great! Never heard of this podcast, will listen to it today! thank u
I'll answer your question directly.
There's a big (one of biggest) travel e-commerce company that hires in the Netherlands. I wont fully endorse the company, but from what I can see, there are groups dedicated to appreciating neurodiversity (and others for lgbt stuff and the like).
You can try over there.
There's a big (one of biggest) travel e-commerce company that hires in the Netherlands. I wont fully endorse the company, but from what I can see, there are groups dedicated to appreciating neurodiversity (and others for lgbt stuff and the like).
You can try over there.
Sorry, this is in German: https://m.faz.net/aktuell/karriere-hochschule/buero-co/merhe...
71% of study participants don’t like their jobs. I will not write my opinion about ADHD, but most of the jobs are boring soul sucking time waste. Think about school - there were some good teachers, that liked what they did and the majority that just did their job. HN crowd obviously had good math and computer science and maybe physics or chemistry teachers.
I am your age and probably with ADHD too. But at this age you should know yourself and the tricks to overcome the deficits. My job is tragical. I am writing stupid shift registers in VHDL (that’s 2nd year homework at the university), but would like to design FPGA accelerators for high performance computing or day trading or machine learning. But the life isn’t pony yard. I can very well imagine HR making fun about the psychopaths they hired for their neurodiversity program. I know, it’s harsh and not pleasant, but I have heard a lot at this age already.
My advice: take some time, learn to know yourself better, especially how to overcome roadblocks and try act normal. Even if it means to play together with bored unhappy crowd.
71% of study participants don’t like their jobs. I will not write my opinion about ADHD, but most of the jobs are boring soul sucking time waste. Think about school - there were some good teachers, that liked what they did and the majority that just did their job. HN crowd obviously had good math and computer science and maybe physics or chemistry teachers.
I am your age and probably with ADHD too. But at this age you should know yourself and the tricks to overcome the deficits. My job is tragical. I am writing stupid shift registers in VHDL (that’s 2nd year homework at the university), but would like to design FPGA accelerators for high performance computing or day trading or machine learning. But the life isn’t pony yard. I can very well imagine HR making fun about the psychopaths they hired for their neurodiversity program. I know, it’s harsh and not pleasant, but I have heard a lot at this age already.
My advice: take some time, learn to know yourself better, especially how to overcome roadblocks and try act normal. Even if it means to play together with bored unhappy crowd.
Thank you very much - yet I really like my job. Honestly. I've took hiatus few times (burnout) but I always wanted to get back. I have only the best memories with both companies I worked for and people I worked with. Even fiascos weren't that bad. The only issue I have is about myself, I really want to go somewhere where I can say "oh you know, I am ADHD, I have temper and sometimes you need to micromanage me, that's my thing" and not jeopardize my career over that.
Meditation before medication, if possible. If it seems hard, think of it as a sport that needs practice.
Multitasking is ingrained in the software we use, which I believe is part of the problem. Something something Attention Economy, probably.
Multitasking is ingrained in the software we use, which I believe is part of the problem. Something something Attention Economy, probably.
Just get medicated my dude. Sure there are drawbacks but no reason to live life with your brain working against you. Once you find the right med it will click. Try them all!
As someone with high functioning autism could I suggest you look into the healthcare sector? I work (remotely) for one of the top EU hospitals - Cambridge University Hospitals Trust - as a senior analyst/programmer in clinical trials.
They are putting neurodiversity into practice (they reached out to all ND staff to contribute in this) and whilst may play into the cynical view of lip service if you hold that view, I know they are genuine about this. I also have a fantastic and understanding manager whom is open to making adjustments for me. I would never, ever what to work anywhere else away from the bunch of compassionate people at the Trust. The whole Moto of this Trust is "Safe, Kind, Excellent".
Loosing corporate, capitalistic drivers from your workplace when it comes to ND is a perhaps good start. Not saying all commercial employers or even non-profits don't care, but from my experience I really struggled in that sector in the past.
If you are open to a geographic move, or could get remote work, I would strongly suggest having a look as the NHS Jobs board. https://www.jobs.nhs.uk
Anyway, good luck to you, hope you find happiness and fulfilling work.
They are putting neurodiversity into practice (they reached out to all ND staff to contribute in this) and whilst may play into the cynical view of lip service if you hold that view, I know they are genuine about this. I also have a fantastic and understanding manager whom is open to making adjustments for me. I would never, ever what to work anywhere else away from the bunch of compassionate people at the Trust. The whole Moto of this Trust is "Safe, Kind, Excellent".
Loosing corporate, capitalistic drivers from your workplace when it comes to ND is a perhaps good start. Not saying all commercial employers or even non-profits don't care, but from my experience I really struggled in that sector in the past.
If you are open to a geographic move, or could get remote work, I would strongly suggest having a look as the NHS Jobs board. https://www.jobs.nhs.uk
Anyway, good luck to you, hope you find happiness and fulfilling work.
The UK is no longer in the EU and the new visa requirements have kicked in :-(
https://www.gulbenkian.co.uk/can-eu-citizens-work-in-the-uk-...
https://www.gulbenkian.co.uk/can-eu-citizens-work-in-the-uk-...
Very true. I think I should have said European region/Western Europe. Philosopically I'm a European, Brexit or not.
Me too bud. Glad you found a good place to work.
I was hired by Microsoft through their autism hiring cohort several years ago. From my experience, I would find it difficult to motivate myself to switch jobs and do the usual resume buffering that some people encourage, since I'm pretty much able to do my job without the specifics of my condition getting in the way. My team and my manager have always been focused on the details of my work and never on the blithe details of corporate culture. I honestly think that's just how Microsoft's culture is built, and I don't think I'd have as good a chance at succeeding in the cultures at the usual FAANG enterprises.
In addition to the job itself, I also got in touch with a contractor whose job it was to discuss the issues specifically related to me being a neurodiverse employee within the overall organization. She also acted as my job coach for a time, but recently their contract with MS expired, so I'm not sure if the same will apply to future hires. She also got in touch with my managers over the 4 years we worked together in case there were any impedance mismatches, of which there weren't any significant ones I recall. This was a massive difference from my previous jobs, where I was either left to the wayside with no explanation or disciplined into the ground for the most minor infractions that I couldn't understand (such as getting up and walking off while the CTO was talking to people at the same table at lunch).
Also part of the job were some neurodiverse focus groups where people hired through the cohort could interact, all knowing they weren't going to be judged and might have been put through the same things in life. I was also paired with an "advocate" in a separate system, who worked outside my org but volunteered to talk/socialize with people in the cohort. She eventually grew to be a good friend who deems me "family", and made good friends with her daughters. It's hard for me to overstate how much of an impact this made on my life, given that all my other efforts to make close friends fell apart during that time. Ultimately I might have been seeking something outside a standard friendship with a similarly-aged individual, and the way it happened to come together was via the cohort. This has often made me question if my only hope of finding a friendship that also maintains my interest to where it won't fall apart is with a person that already has a deep understanding of neurodiverse issues, and is prepared adjust their circumstances accordingly (one of her children had autism themselves).
My job has probably been the most significant benefit I have received in my life. It has enabled me to live independently and comfortably for many years. As such, it gives me pause to reflect on what might have happened if I didn't receive a diagnosis. People often say that there's no reason to get a diagnosis if it doesn't change what you'd do to cope with or mitigate the downsides, but me choosing to seek out a diagnosis had significant material benefits in my case. Not only that but I think I would not give my job up for anything, because even a job with comparable pay and benefits might be culturally incompatible the way I operate and choose not to socialize. Unless the company clearly states its position on neurodiverse employees, that essentially makes changing jobs a huge gamble with dire consequences if it doesn't work out (having been on the wrong side of that deal twice in my life already).
In addition to the job itself, I also got in touch with a contractor whose job it was to discuss the issues specifically related to me being a neurodiverse employee within the overall organization. She also acted as my job coach for a time, but recently their contract with MS expired, so I'm not sure if the same will apply to future hires. She also got in touch with my managers over the 4 years we worked together in case there were any impedance mismatches, of which there weren't any significant ones I recall. This was a massive difference from my previous jobs, where I was either left to the wayside with no explanation or disciplined into the ground for the most minor infractions that I couldn't understand (such as getting up and walking off while the CTO was talking to people at the same table at lunch).
Also part of the job were some neurodiverse focus groups where people hired through the cohort could interact, all knowing they weren't going to be judged and might have been put through the same things in life. I was also paired with an "advocate" in a separate system, who worked outside my org but volunteered to talk/socialize with people in the cohort. She eventually grew to be a good friend who deems me "family", and made good friends with her daughters. It's hard for me to overstate how much of an impact this made on my life, given that all my other efforts to make close friends fell apart during that time. Ultimately I might have been seeking something outside a standard friendship with a similarly-aged individual, and the way it happened to come together was via the cohort. This has often made me question if my only hope of finding a friendship that also maintains my interest to where it won't fall apart is with a person that already has a deep understanding of neurodiverse issues, and is prepared adjust their circumstances accordingly (one of her children had autism themselves).
My job has probably been the most significant benefit I have received in my life. It has enabled me to live independently and comfortably for many years. As such, it gives me pause to reflect on what might have happened if I didn't receive a diagnosis. People often say that there's no reason to get a diagnosis if it doesn't change what you'd do to cope with or mitigate the downsides, but me choosing to seek out a diagnosis had significant material benefits in my case. Not only that but I think I would not give my job up for anything, because even a job with comparable pay and benefits might be culturally incompatible the way I operate and choose not to socialize. Unless the company clearly states its position on neurodiverse employees, that essentially makes changing jobs a huge gamble with dire consequences if it doesn't work out (having been on the wrong side of that deal twice in my life already).
If you're an employer reading this and thinking "how can i help make my company adhd friendly" then i highly recommend you check out the welfare pack from adhduk [1].
i had a chat with the ceo of the charity when i got diagnosed to see if i could help and he is one of the few people i've spoken to in the space that is actively considering adhd in the workplace.
my favourite parts are:
- before criticising timeliness, ask if timeliness is critical to the role. if it isn't, have a policy of flexible time, make it ok to make up lateness later. if it is, find ways to make it less so with scheduling and partnering
- hot desking / open offices: make provisions for people to have quiet and uninterrupted work environments. perhaps that is alternate office space, providing noise cancelling headphones.
- meeting timeliness: fully integrate calendar and reminder systems. for many with adhd something not in the calendar may aswell not exist.
there are loads more but most of the key point boil down to: stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations, that it's a personal failure of theirs. start considering how the environment (physical, social, technological, conceptual) might be an impediment to them. start questioning your assumptions around what is "actually" necessary for a role and what you think is necessary.
my personal addition to this is: lots of the ways in which i disappoint people ultimately derive from an innate fear of disappointing people. the irony is not lost on me. the answer, ive found, is to create for myself an environment in which a) my colleagues can separate their disappointment in my actions/ outcomes from me. b) where i can communicate my issues / worries as and when they arrive without fear.
my favourite one has been telling people that a particular task will be far to boring for me to do alone and being able to partner up with someone else to get it done. or that asking me to remember to do something in prep for a meeting is a bad idea and to either pop it straight into my calendar, do it now or make some time during the meeting to do it. that last one is basically the amazon meeting agenda policy where the start of every meeting is reading the notes for the meeting, it's adhd dream.
i am reminded to leave this caveat: yes, these are problems we all face, the questions is: do the problems cause a material impact on your life (lost jobs, failed relationships (love/friends), missed opportunities, states of being that you cant escape). the difference between having adhd and not is whether the problems cause disorder in your life currently, and have done so for much of your life.
1]: https://adhduk.co.uk/adhd-and-work/
i had a chat with the ceo of the charity when i got diagnosed to see if i could help and he is one of the few people i've spoken to in the space that is actively considering adhd in the workplace.
my favourite parts are:
- before criticising timeliness, ask if timeliness is critical to the role. if it isn't, have a policy of flexible time, make it ok to make up lateness later. if it is, find ways to make it less so with scheduling and partnering
- hot desking / open offices: make provisions for people to have quiet and uninterrupted work environments. perhaps that is alternate office space, providing noise cancelling headphones.
- meeting timeliness: fully integrate calendar and reminder systems. for many with adhd something not in the calendar may aswell not exist.
there are loads more but most of the key point boil down to: stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations, that it's a personal failure of theirs. start considering how the environment (physical, social, technological, conceptual) might be an impediment to them. start questioning your assumptions around what is "actually" necessary for a role and what you think is necessary.
my personal addition to this is: lots of the ways in which i disappoint people ultimately derive from an innate fear of disappointing people. the irony is not lost on me. the answer, ive found, is to create for myself an environment in which a) my colleagues can separate their disappointment in my actions/ outcomes from me. b) where i can communicate my issues / worries as and when they arrive without fear.
my favourite one has been telling people that a particular task will be far to boring for me to do alone and being able to partner up with someone else to get it done. or that asking me to remember to do something in prep for a meeting is a bad idea and to either pop it straight into my calendar, do it now or make some time during the meeting to do it. that last one is basically the amazon meeting agenda policy where the start of every meeting is reading the notes for the meeting, it's adhd dream.
i am reminded to leave this caveat: yes, these are problems we all face, the questions is: do the problems cause a material impact on your life (lost jobs, failed relationships (love/friends), missed opportunities, states of being that you cant escape). the difference between having adhd and not is whether the problems cause disorder in your life currently, and have done so for much of your life.
1]: https://adhduk.co.uk/adhd-and-work/
For many it helps to be clear about what deadlines are real.
From what I see the worst there is seems to be "you can do this anytime you like". That means never, because an ADHDer, helpful as they typically are will be busy from now on until eternity with whatever seems to be more urgent.
Some ADHD-ers are amazing at meeting deadlines as long as there is one at a time and they are somewhat realistic.
From what I see the worst there is seems to be "you can do this anytime you like". That means never, because an ADHDer, helpful as they typically are will be busy from now on until eternity with whatever seems to be more urgent.
Some ADHD-ers are amazing at meeting deadlines as long as there is one at a time and they are somewhat realistic.
people need a "how to work with me guide".
I kind of like the idea, but at the same time it is something I would be ashamed if people needed to work with me.
I definitely have my own issues but I try to present a standard reliable interface outward, hiding my weaknesses and instead encourage people to let me help them using my strong sides.
I definitely have my own issues but I try to present a standard reliable interface outward, hiding my weaknesses and instead encourage people to let me help them using my strong sides.
> stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations
It's a bit off topic, but this is so important for parenting, let alone running a company with employees.
It's a bit off topic, but this is so important for parenting, let alone running a company with employees.
microsoft does.
Every time someone tells me they have ADHD and suggest they should take some measures to accommodate it, I think of this Slate Star Codex post: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...
It's about Adderall (a popular medicine for ADHD), but the beginning of the article has a great discussion on the nature of ADHD.
It's about Adderall (a popular medicine for ADHD), but the beginning of the article has a great discussion on the nature of ADHD.
It's very simplistic. ADHD is not only problem with just focusing, there are many other symptoms. And yes it's hard to diagnose if someone is lying, but if someone is honest then there are many easy to spot patterns. And I think most honest people do not go for meds just because of work-related problems. ADHD cause problems in every aspect of life.
staticelf(9)
In hindsight ADHD helped me to get into current position. Being constantly bored, high energy, positive-minded solution and tool seeker is often good thing in times of crisis. When things go stale and there are no things to fix but only boring forms remains it's usually mortal battle with burnout, procrastination, self-doubt. One which usually ends with me quitting due to burnout or - rarely - getting kicked off because the next more boring thing took longer than anticipated.
Right now I'm on hiatus since couple last couple of weeks, but lack of direction and purpose is awful and with every morning I feel fires of restlessness growing.
Today I read recruitment ad about neurodiversity program which - supposedly - caters people with different neurodivergencies. Those were US on-site positions though and I'm in EU.
So getting to the point: Do you know / can recommend companies with neurodiversity programs?
For myself obviously I'm looking for remote or EU companies (with relocation) but even if you know something that's not in the region please feel free to contribute - maybe someone else looking will make use of it.
Obvious throwaway. Some half-truths embedded.