Fosstodon Hub – More Upgrades(hub.fosstodon.org)
hub.fosstodon.org
Fosstodon Hub – More Upgrades
https://hub.fosstodon.org/more-upgrades-twitter-storm/
95 comments
Also the more users are concentrated on a few instances the higher the likelihood they will suspend smaller instances. My fear is that at one point the large instances might switch from a blocklist approach to allow-listing only the instances they federate with. All of this without evil intent, just because they cannot keep up with moderating.
Only block lists rather than allow lists are supported on most projects. Someone would need to fork Mastodon or other to switch to allow lists. This would be a bad departure but will surely happen in some cases. They could even disable the account move feature to lock people in. Maybe truth.social did that and is why it is basically a closed off island.
A patch is the ultimate configuration mechanism. So in practice, everything is supported if the instance wants it badly enough.
I agree but also want to note that coordinating 1000 instances over ActivityPub brings it's own set of problems, rather than having one instance with 1000 users. Each new server introduced into the federation puts (minimal) additional load and traffic requirements on the other nodes, so more servers requires better servers.
I do think that's the way forward though, rather than a few big instances, but time will tell what the right percentage of the split is for good performance for everyone.
I do think that's the way forward though, rather than a few big instances, but time will tell what the right percentage of the split is for good performance for everyone.
Yes, you're right on that point.
I have read the ActivitPub spec but not the Mastodon API - so I'm probably wrong on the following part.
Let's assume that we have 1000 users on a single server, posting a single message to those 1000 followers is writing a 1000 DB records (assuming a table with post - user link).
Let's assume we have one server with 500 users, and 5 other servers with 100 users each. We still write 500 DB records on the first server, and make 5 API calls to the other servers, which each write 100 DB records.
If the above holds true, the overhead is 5 extra API calls? At least, I hope Mastodon doesn't make API calls for every user on a server!
I have read the ActivitPub spec but not the Mastodon API - so I'm probably wrong on the following part.
Let's assume that we have 1000 users on a single server, posting a single message to those 1000 followers is writing a 1000 DB records (assuming a table with post - user link).
Let's assume we have one server with 500 users, and 5 other servers with 100 users each. We still write 500 DB records on the first server, and make 5 API calls to the other servers, which each write 100 DB records.
If the above holds true, the overhead is 5 extra API calls? At least, I hope Mastodon doesn't make API calls for every user on a server!
I strongly suspect that connecting a new server to the federation, which has 1000 active users, is better than connecting 1000 more active users to an existing server.
1000 new users on an existing server are 1000 app/browser instances making separate network connections and separate little queries to that server.
Whereas (I would hope) there are aggregation efficiencies in connecting a new 1000-user instance to the network.
Also remember there are certain optimizations in Mastodon. If an instance A generates a toot, but the toot has no followers on instance B, then B doesn't see it. However, an instance always processes a toot from its own directly connected user's browser or Mastodon application.
1000 new users on an existing server are 1000 app/browser instances making separate network connections and separate little queries to that server.
Whereas (I would hope) there are aggregation efficiencies in connecting a new 1000-user instance to the network.
Also remember there are certain optimizations in Mastodon. If an instance A generates a toot, but the toot has no followers on instance B, then B doesn't see it. However, an instance always processes a toot from its own directly connected user's browser or Mastodon application.
Does ActivityPub support hierarchical federation? Or could it be grafted on?
I've been wondering about that. I joked not too long ago that Mastodon is the new FidoNet, but it does occur to me that there are probably things Mastodon could learn from FidoNet (or Usenet) if it hasn't learned them already.
> While I'm glad and support that people donate to their instance, I would encourage more people to start their own instance instead of donating.
Sure… but then what?
I probably have the technical chops to setup an instance that won’t end up in a botnet in the first five minutes but that’s about it. No clue how to get people to responsibly (aka moderation) use it or even how to tell people there’s a new instance out there. Federation and all that, assuming there’s coordination between sysops in some way.
And judging by TFA the software is a dog so there’s non-trivial expenses involved. Or take a month to make my own implementation in C++ and have people accuse me of crimes against humanity because I don’t want to learn rust. Maybe there’s better options, dunno?
I assume this is all just backend stuff where people bring their own client?
I actually like figuring out how stuff like this works but “just run your own instance” isn’t helpful.
Admittedly, I haven’t even asked the google any of this but one thing I do know is I can’t afford to spend $1,800/month on anything that doesn’t generate significantly more income than that.
Sure… but then what?
I probably have the technical chops to setup an instance that won’t end up in a botnet in the first five minutes but that’s about it. No clue how to get people to responsibly (aka moderation) use it or even how to tell people there’s a new instance out there. Federation and all that, assuming there’s coordination between sysops in some way.
And judging by TFA the software is a dog so there’s non-trivial expenses involved. Or take a month to make my own implementation in C++ and have people accuse me of crimes against humanity because I don’t want to learn rust. Maybe there’s better options, dunno?
I assume this is all just backend stuff where people bring their own client?
I actually like figuring out how stuff like this works but “just run your own instance” isn’t helpful.
Admittedly, I haven’t even asked the google any of this but one thing I do know is I can’t afford to spend $1,800/month on anything that doesn’t generate significantly more income than that.
My little RPI 4B 8GB running Mastodon and Nextcloud on yunohost.org is running well with about 20 users and can accommodate many more. If you have an old laptop or RPI laying around, give it a try.
The issue is that all content is cached on all nodes so s3 or blob usage goes up a ton
You're responding to someone hosting on an rpi so I doubt that S3 or blob storage is involved. Also AFAIK re-hosting images is not required, at least some instances seem to link back to the original host.
Any suggestion for decent single-or-few-users ActivityPub servers?
I just want a container or a small binary I can run on my server for myself.
I just want a container or a small binary I can run on my server for myself.
Single: ktistec? https://github.com/toddsundsted/ktistec (crystal + sqlite)
Few: Akkoma? https://akkoma.dev/AkkomaGang/akkoma/ (elixir + postgres)
Few (alpha): GoToSocial? https://docs.gotosocial.org/en/latest/ (go + sqlite)
There's also honk - https://humungus.tedunangst.com/r/honk - which tends to do its own thing re: UI and terminology (go + sqlite)
Maybe PleromaPi - https://issueantenna.com/repo/guysoft/PleromaPi - if you've got a Pi lying around doing nothing (Akkoma is a fork of Pleroma)
Few: Akkoma? https://akkoma.dev/AkkomaGang/akkoma/ (elixir + postgres)
Few (alpha): GoToSocial? https://docs.gotosocial.org/en/latest/ (go + sqlite)
There's also honk - https://humungus.tedunangst.com/r/honk - which tends to do its own thing re: UI and terminology (go + sqlite)
Maybe PleromaPi - https://issueantenna.com/repo/guysoft/PleromaPi - if you've got a Pi lying around doing nothing (Akkoma is a fork of Pleroma)
Mastodon docs provide a guide to running an instance:
https://docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/prerequisites/
(I don’t run one myself so would be curious if any admins have tips or suggestions.)
https://docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/prerequisites/
(I don’t run one myself so would be curious if any admins have tips or suggestions.)
It was easy enough to set it up on DigitalOcean. My primary objective was my own identity. Turns out the basic $7/mo can’t keep up with the load at all. I’d need to at least double the instance size to be able to serve the single user (me). Mastodon is quite resource intensive to host. I decided to instead donate that to fosstodon and move there.
I have used rails in production for a company with decent traffic. It’s doable but it requires a lot of optimizations and the minimum starting requirement is high.
I think a Masto.host like model (the one Fosstodon uses) but with proper multi-tenant support and custom domain support is required for self-hosted mastodon to become a viable option.
(I have a desktop lying around unused. I’ll give another try with that but I’d probably have to measure the electricity usage and add an UPS)
I have used rails in production for a company with decent traffic. It’s doable but it requires a lot of optimizations and the minimum starting requirement is high.
I think a Masto.host like model (the one Fosstodon uses) but with proper multi-tenant support and custom domain support is required for self-hosted mastodon to become a viable option.
(I have a desktop lying around unused. I’ll give another try with that but I’d probably have to measure the electricity usage and add an UPS)
The nice thing is that you don't have to run a Mastodon instance to partake in the fediverse, there are a number of other server platforms that can be used. Another popular one is Pleroma[0], which to my understanding is much lighter-weight.
[0]: https://pleroma.social/
[0]: https://pleroma.social/
If people dig that kind of stuff, then sure, go right ahead.
As for me, I really don’t enjoy being a sysadmin in my spare time.
YMMV.
As for me, I really don’t enjoy being a sysadmin in my spare time.
YMMV.
I continue to see people stumble at mastodon resource requirements when setting up their instance, but I fail to understand why everyone is going for a mastodon instance for their personal use.
I am running https://github.com/superseriousbusiness/gotosocial on a micro instance, probably using 100M ram, with a 30M sqlite database.
True, I don't have all features. It is pure backend, but I can use https://pinafore.social/ as web client and https://f-droid.org/en/packages/su.xash.husky/ as Android app. It implements a good chunk of the Mastodon API. I also use it from Emacs with mastodon.el.
Took me 35 minutes to setup. It runs as a single binary from systemd. Most of the jail features enabled. Not even a system user (DynamicUser).
Mastodon != Fediverse.
I am running https://github.com/superseriousbusiness/gotosocial on a micro instance, probably using 100M ram, with a 30M sqlite database.
True, I don't have all features. It is pure backend, but I can use https://pinafore.social/ as web client and https://f-droid.org/en/packages/su.xash.husky/ as Android app. It implements a good chunk of the Mastodon API. I also use it from Emacs with mastodon.el.
Took me 35 minutes to setup. It runs as a single binary from systemd. Most of the jail features enabled. Not even a system user (DynamicUser).
Mastodon != Fediverse.
My dream is to have everyone running off single user instances. Repeal section 230. Stop by the grocery store and buy a matchbox size server that you can plug into your home router. Matrix and activityPub compliant.
Unfortunately raspberry PIs are few and far between.
Monetization would be chaos.
Unfortunately raspberry PIs are few and far between.
Monetization would be chaos.
Is the actual hardware they are running published somewhere? Didn't seem to be mentioned in this blog post nor the previous ones, unless I missed it.
~2000 USD seems slightly expensive for what they are doing, to be honest. ~900 USD would give you a 32 cores (AMD EPYC 7502P), 1TB RAM and ~15.36TB storage over at Hetzner, just a single instance. Double that and seems they would be covered for quite a while, and it comes just under 2000 USD.
~2000 USD seems slightly expensive for what they are doing, to be honest. ~900 USD would give you a 32 cores (AMD EPYC 7502P), 1TB RAM and ~15.36TB storage over at Hetzner, just a single instance. Double that and seems they would be covered for quite a while, and it comes just under 2000 USD.
All costs are detailed here: https://hub.fosstodon.org/about/#current-funding
Yes it could be done cheaper, if they did more work themselves. The masto.host service they're using is basically Mastodon as a service - aka they're paying someone to host (and manage) a Mastodon instance.
All in all fair value for the money IMO.
Yes it could be done cheaper, if they did more work themselves. The masto.host service they're using is basically Mastodon as a service - aka they're paying someone to host (and manage) a Mastodon instance.
All in all fair value for the money IMO.
> All in all fair value
Unless I'm missing something huge, how is $1900/mo for 96GB of database and 700GB of disk storage remotely a fair value? AWS on-demand prices are significantly more affordable than that.
And this is all to support a grand total of 50,000 users? What in the world? Is Mastodon just the most inefficiently written software ever or something?
Unless I'm missing something huge, how is $1900/mo for 96GB of database and 700GB of disk storage remotely a fair value? AWS on-demand prices are significantly more affordable than that.
And this is all to support a grand total of 50,000 users? What in the world? Is Mastodon just the most inefficiently written software ever or something?
Automated backups, monitoring, a person "on call) to manage your instance and handle any issues?
The Fosstodon admins run the moderation side, but masto.host (their service provider) is paid to keep the lights on.
The Fosstodon admins run the moderation side, but masto.host (their service provider) is paid to keep the lights on.
It's easy to say "buy a box and connect it to the internet", but that's consumer grade equipment. If my computer goes down, it only affects me. When an instance goes down, it can affect thousands of people.
I'm not saying they couldn't find a less expensive solution with AWS or Azure, but they need a solution now. They don't have the time to learn a new solution, design the system, and then implement a new backend while people are swarming to their instance. Migrating to another solution (even the above "box") means significant downtime for 50,000 people.
I'm not saying they couldn't find a less expensive solution with AWS or Azure, but they need a solution now. They don't have the time to learn a new solution, design the system, and then implement a new backend while people are swarming to their instance. Migrating to another solution (even the above "box") means significant downtime for 50,000 people.
No, I'm sorry, these are not reasonable costs. Is there a reason why the mastodon community has utterly no clue what sort of performance/cost should support an utterly basic social media platform?
You are always welcome to use the opportunity and start a competing service in a fraction of the cost. Mastodon is indeed inefficient but you also pay a lot for peace of mind.
More to the point: the masto.host guy has been there working on making starting an instance accessible from early on. People don't seem to mind paying a little premium to support someone who's done a lot of work to jumpstart the fediverse. Starting a competing service might be easy from a technical aspect, but reputation counts for a lot here.
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Instead of condescending to them, why not try to help the project be more efficient with resources? It is an open source project after all.
Yes? It’s written in RoR.
Is the ActivityPub spec just as bad, or would it be performant if written in a proper language?
Pleroma is an Mastodon clone written in Elixir https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma
There are other clients, like gotosocial written in Go, so a comparison is possible, but not sure if someone has already done that.
>Mastodon just the most inefficiently written software ever or something?
Yes, it's notoriously bad.
Yes, it's notoriously bad.
$TWTR's all-inclusive expenses were 25x higher than this. $5.6B/year = $470M/month, in support of 260M daily active users. $1.80/user-month, as compared vs. $0.07/user-month on here (I'm only counting the 30k "active").
I feel like it's a bargain social media, both in feature-set and cost.
(I don't understand the server cost breakdown either, and I don't pretend do. Just doing an empirical comparison).
I feel like it's a bargain social media, both in feature-set and cost.
(I don't understand the server cost breakdown either, and I don't pretend do. Just doing an empirical comparison).
The incentives of optimizing for future revenue are different than those when you are optimizing for minimizing expenses. These values are not very comparable.
I find the comparison very interesting, in the broader debate of "how can not for profit services with no ads compete with giant for profit advertising based serices". I have really appreciated the analysis in this thread.
Which of those two is the one optimising for future revenue?
Not trying to be a smart arse - it’s just that the obvious pick (Twitter) has been aiming for revenue from the beginning and haven’t really delivered.
Not trying to be a smart arse - it’s just that the obvious pick (Twitter) has been aiming for revenue from the beginning and haven’t really delivered.
Twitter.
>has been aiming for revenue from the beginning and haven’t really delivered.
In 2021 twitter had 5.08 billion dollars of revenue. Their ad revenue divided by DAU was about $20. No mastodon instance is close to getting $20 per active user per year.
>has been aiming for revenue from the beginning and haven’t really delivered.
In 2021 twitter had 5.08 billion dollars of revenue. Their ad revenue divided by DAU was about $20. No mastodon instance is close to getting $20 per active user per year.
I’ve made the most basic of errors. I was thinking I was discussing profit.
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The backend is written in Ruby on Rails not something like Rust, this explains why it has such beefy hardware requirements for 50k users.
The masto.host "Mastodon as a service" is a one-man show run superbly by Hugo Gameiro. This and comparing it with other Mastodon hosters: absolutely fair value for the money.
> All costs are detailed here: https://hub.fosstodon.org/about/#current-funding
It doesn't actually list where and how the service itself is hosted, it just says "Fosstodon hosting" and the amount. I'm looking to understand what hardware is being used and where it's hosted.
It doesn't actually list where and how the service itself is hosted, it just says "Fosstodon hosting" and the amount. I'm looking to understand what hardware is being used and where it's hosted.
https://masto.host/infrastructure/
>> "The data centers used for Masto.host are from OVH and are located in France."
So probably whatever OVH offers.
>> "The data centers used for Masto.host are from OVH and are located in France."
So probably whatever OVH offers.
> So probably whatever OVH offers.
That'd be more helpful if it narrowed it down a bit more.
OVH offers ranges from 8 USD/month for a virtual CPU core in public cloud to like 1500 USD/month dedicated instances with 24 dedicated cores.
That'd be more helpful if it narrowed it down a bit more.
OVH offers ranges from 8 USD/month for a virtual CPU core in public cloud to like 1500 USD/month dedicated instances with 24 dedicated cores.
I'd be curious to see Mastodon attempt to add features which help instances pay for hosting. Otherwise i don't see how this can survive.
I'm sitting here waiting for a slot to open up on `mastodon.art`, but the same story will play out there i'm sure too. How is it paid for? How can i help? Most people won't, but i'm happy to pay a small fee to hopefully offset my footprint cost. I just think Mastodon needs features to reduce this friction as best as possible.
.. though maybe it has them already? I've never hosted an instance so what do i know?
I'm sitting here waiting for a slot to open up on `mastodon.art`, but the same story will play out there i'm sure too. How is it paid for? How can i help? Most people won't, but i'm happy to pay a small fee to hopefully offset my footprint cost. I just think Mastodon needs features to reduce this friction as best as possible.
.. though maybe it has them already? I've never hosted an instance so what do i know?
Plenty of instances are using Patreon for this. Seems to be working well for them, though the huge explosion in users over the past few weeks might change that.
Here's the Mastodon.art one for example (they have two other crowdfunding services as well, linked on their about page): https://www.patreon.com/mastodonart
I think it's going to be OK. People who migrate to Mastodon are the kind of people who understand why it's good to contribute to your instance if you can afford to do so.
Here's the Mastodon.art one for example (they have two other crowdfunding services as well, linked on their about page): https://www.patreon.com/mastodonart
I think it's going to be OK. People who migrate to Mastodon are the kind of people who understand why it's good to contribute to your instance if you can afford to do so.
I've seen a few Mastodon instances using https://opencollective.com/ which seems like a pretty reasonable way to cover ongoing costs and the like. Here's an example: https://opencollective.com/libreops
I'm curious why don't join another instance and simply follow people on mastodon.art - Is the local timeline that important for users? I'm genuinely asking since I'm on my own single user instance but follow plenty of people to give me enough content to consume.
TBH, i don't know entirely, it just "feels" like i want the instance i'm most interested in. Yes, local timeline is neat and a feature i'd like to be able to use, but the Social aspect of Mastodon (vs email) means i tend to view the domain as indicating primary interest. It feels like a badge of community/interest.
Not sure if it makes sense, just trying to explain what's going on in my head. As i have debated that exact question myself, internally.
Not sure if it makes sense, just trying to explain what's going on in my head. As i have debated that exact question myself, internally.
Discovery: You'll tend to discover what other local users have already found or subscribed to. (Local timeline, hashtag search.)
Culture and rules: In this case this means how nudity is handled, whether anyone will care if you post spiders or gore without warning, some specific rules about AI-generated art, etc.
I can confirm that mastodon.art feels cozy and well-moderated, been there for years, also a financial supporter. Another sign that they care is that they've closed registrations, instead of trying to instantly moderate 3x the users. They've recently silenced mastodon.social, which again is mostly about calming down the local discovery features (you can still follow/be followed). They are blocking instances that encourage copyright violations, etc.
If you want an .art account, IMO right now you should start on one of the other instances they recommend, and move your account later. You can browse the local .art timeline and their view of hashtags without an account.
Culture and rules: In this case this means how nudity is handled, whether anyone will care if you post spiders or gore without warning, some specific rules about AI-generated art, etc.
I can confirm that mastodon.art feels cozy and well-moderated, been there for years, also a financial supporter. Another sign that they care is that they've closed registrations, instead of trying to instantly moderate 3x the users. They've recently silenced mastodon.social, which again is mostly about calming down the local discovery features (you can still follow/be followed). They are blocking instances that encourage copyright violations, etc.
If you want an .art account, IMO right now you should start on one of the other instances they recommend, and move your account later. You can browse the local .art timeline and their view of hashtags without an account.
I think that the local timeline is the only decent way to have native discovery in Mastodon (especially if you're in a topic-specific instance). I know some people specifically don't want things like algorithmic recommendations, which is fine, but for others this means expanding your following is relatively hard.
Say you’re into several disparate topics. e.g. always into a tech area, a sports team, a type of music, a local city. Then you may have time based interests that come and go yearly. It doesn’t seem to make sense to me that you have to choose one as the primary discovery zone, even if one interest was dominant.
Looking at mastodon.art, the admins seem to have blocked/muted hundreds of instances, including mastodon.social, mastodon.online, qoto.org, all of which are moderate instances with a clear policy against racism, harassment, etc., I don't see how this is good for artists, who probably need engagement. I think mastodon.art admins are trying to push their agenda by pressuring other instances to adopt stricter restrictions and limit users' freedom, instead of simply protecting their users (which is not achieved by restricting users from interacting with moderated instances).
Presumably the artists are smart folks and can switch instances if they feel the rules are too limiting [1]. mastodon.art's policies are too restrictive for my tastes, and so...I don't use them, and wouldn't encourage others to use them, either, unless they really liked them.
But, I don't see why we have to assume this is the instance admins having an "agenda" and trying to "pressure other instances to limit users' freedom". Maybe they just want to run their instance their way -- the ultimate freedom!
[1]: I think I may have stumbled across the mastodon instance that you use. I can see why you might feel strongly about mastodon.art's policies.
But, I don't see why we have to assume this is the instance admins having an "agenda" and trying to "pressure other instances to limit users' freedom". Maybe they just want to run their instance their way -- the ultimate freedom!
[1]: I think I may have stumbled across the mastodon instance that you use. I can see why you might feel strongly about mastodon.art's policies.
You're a right I had to be more precise about my arguments, I found the post describing why they have silenced .social/.online https://www.patreon.com/posts/silencing-social-74474015, .social/.online can federate with mstdn.io, an instance banned on mastodon.art, silencing .social/.online will not change anything in defending their users but only to pressure these instances and quote: "I am, of course, hoping that maybe by us silencing them, we can initiate some kind of change in the moderation there.". You say: "Maybe they just want to run their instance their way -- the ultimate freedom!" but it is clear that they are trying to moderate the instances of others according to their own vision.
Here is some background about silencing mastodon.social, and what it means: https://www.patreon.com/posts/silencing-social-74474015
I don't think it's about pushing an agenda. Each instance can only set the rules for their own community. Dozens of art-related instances have popped up like mushrooms overnight, so there is a good chance people will find one where they agree with the rules of the house. And it's easy to move to another instance later.
I don't think it's about pushing an agenda. Each instance can only set the rules for their own community. Dozens of art-related instances have popped up like mushrooms overnight, so there is a good chance people will find one where they agree with the rules of the house. And it's easy to move to another instance later.
This post confirm that silencing and blocking moderated instances is more about pushing an agenda than protecting their users. They silenced .social/.online because they federate with mstdn.io, an instance banned on mastodon.art, so silencing these instances will make no difference in protecting their users and quote: "I am, of course, hoping that maybe by us silencing them, we can initiate some kind of change in the moderation there.". The pressure against instances with an open federation policy or in general against instances that dare to even federate to instances blocked on .art for political reasons is quite clear. I think people don't like the term "agenda," which is misused many times, but I think it describes the situation in this case quite well.
What other credible art instances are there in your eyes? I'm having trouble finding them, so search terms (or tools?) would be useful as well :)
(I say credible, as in not just a tiny instance with no idea on longevity)
(I say credible, as in not just a tiny instance with no idea on longevity)
Credible? Most new instances are literally just a few weeks old.
Welcome to the fediverse, where not everyone is on the same big server: There is wandering.shop if you're into writing. If you're into dinosaur paintings, go to sauropods.win. If you like math-art, it's very much on-topic on mathstodon.xyz. Try inkblot.art if you like non-conventional instances. Or genart.social if you like algorithmic art.
Those are just the ones I discovered by accident recently, without trying. Try picking a general instance you trust, and browse an artistic hashtag there. Also, most general instances are okay with art (try the #mastoart hashtag).
(Also the three instances recommended by .art when you try registering there. Probably not for you if you don't like .art.)
Welcome to the fediverse, where not everyone is on the same big server: There is wandering.shop if you're into writing. If you're into dinosaur paintings, go to sauropods.win. If you like math-art, it's very much on-topic on mathstodon.xyz. Try inkblot.art if you like non-conventional instances. Or genart.social if you like algorithmic art.
Those are just the ones I discovered by accident recently, without trying. Try picking a general instance you trust, and browse an artistic hashtag there. Also, most general instances are okay with art (try the #mastoart hashtag).
(Also the three instances recommended by .art when you try registering there. Probably not for you if you don't like .art.)
Not sure about that, but i'm mostly just interested in the local community.
That said if the cost was a bit lower i was mildly tempted to standup a Blender community. However that seems like a lot of work, in addition to being a bit expensive.
That said if the cost was a bit lower i was mildly tempted to standup a Blender community. However that seems like a lot of work, in addition to being a bit expensive.
Mastodon simply won't be able to scale at the rate this is going. It's simply too expensive to run the instances and too labor intensive to moderate.
TBH I think it might've been a mistake from mastodons side to allow media hosting. Running ffmpeg in the background to transcode video, the image optimization scripts and the hosting of it all gets a bit costly.
I might be wrong on this, I don't run an instance myself, but in my perspective cost cutting should be prio number 1 even if it means you have to cut back on some features. Removing toot edits should allow for a more aggressive caching strategy etc.
This should allow more people to start their own instances without being afraid of potentially hitting it big.
TBH I think it might've been a mistake from mastodons side to allow media hosting. Running ffmpeg in the background to transcode video, the image optimization scripts and the hosting of it all gets a bit costly.
I might be wrong on this, I don't run an instance myself, but in my perspective cost cutting should be prio number 1 even if it means you have to cut back on some features. Removing toot edits should allow for a more aggressive caching strategy etc.
This should allow more people to start their own instances without being afraid of potentially hitting it big.
https://bunny.net/stream/
how come this isn't being used by activitypub to offload server work?
you dont even have to use ffmpeg, just dump the video directly and get encoded videos back...
if your server is NOT running FFMPEG, that is potentially more resources available for actual server work
how come this isn't being used by activitypub to offload server work?
you dont even have to use ffmpeg, just dump the video directly and get encoded videos back...
if your server is NOT running FFMPEG, that is potentially more resources available for actual server work
> how come this isn't being used by activitypub to offload server work?
Because ActivityPub is the same thing as HTTP, a protocol for exchanging information. Basing a protocol around the idea that you send data to a closed-source platform goes against the whole idea of creating a open protocol in the first place.
Not to mention it goes against the idea and culture behind Mastodon as well, as bunny.net doesn't seem to be FOSS at all.
Because ActivityPub is the same thing as HTTP, a protocol for exchanging information. Basing a protocol around the idea that you send data to a closed-source platform goes against the whole idea of creating a open protocol in the first place.
Not to mention it goes against the idea and culture behind Mastodon as well, as bunny.net doesn't seem to be FOSS at all.
Why would uploading the video to a SaSS, paying them to run FFmpeg, and downloading the result be cheaper than running FFmpeg yourself?
encoding is free
I don’t know if it actually is cheaper, but it certainly could be cheaper if the SaaS is running hardware/software optimized for FFMpeg and your Rails app/db server that is hosting a Mastodon instance is not.
I don't know why these admins want their servers to grow so big. Just close registrations and encourage people to run servers. It doesn't even have to be all self hosting, running a server capable of supporting 100 or so people is pretty cheap, especially if you use something other than mastodon.
Are there any paid Mastodon hosting services out there? They take care of system upgrades, security, downtime, etc., while I give them a few bucks a month for some amount of users up to a given cap.
There are a ton of them, for different fedi server types. There's masto.host which is widely known.
If I read the numbers correctly, they have monthly costs of about $0.07 per user.
Interesting, when you compare that to Twitter:
https://masto.ai/@mg/109394485136585413
Interesting, when you compare that to Twitter:
https://masto.ai/@mg/109394485136585413
I'm not sure it is that interesting, it makes sense. Twitter is a huge organization optimized for reach and earning money by serving its audience ads, with big structure around all of that.
While Fosstodon is a more of loose collective of people spending their free time trying to run a free service for a community around FOSS, with optimizations geared towards making the service itself cheap to run but still resilient and performant.
That they end up at different costs per user at that scale (or even more) makes a lot of sense in my head.
While Fosstodon is a more of loose collective of people spending their free time trying to run a free service for a community around FOSS, with optimizations geared towards making the service itself cheap to run but still resilient and performant.
That they end up at different costs per user at that scale (or even more) makes a lot of sense in my head.
I find the actual figures interesting. We tend to imagine that to run a web service you have to run ads, but it sounds like all the work required to build out that infrastructure adds so much cost that offering a donation supported service with no ads may be more viable now.
Are users the only metric that counts? Some users post nothing, others post every 20mins average during 24hours. The more activity you have have, the more problems you have, backup costs don't grow linearly. Twitter probably has some SLO that are promised to paying customers, both for displaying ads and giving access to unrestricted APIs, this also grows more than linearly.
That said... CxO of masto.ai probably aren't paid 100s of millions$$$ and don't deal with international regulatory issues in Slovakia?
That said... CxO of masto.ai probably aren't paid 100s of millions$$$ and don't deal with international regulatory issues in Slovakia?
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Guys, go and run your own instances!
Don't feel urged to run mastodon, there are other solutions which are not that heavy (or written in a language you might know better). Check fediverse.party and find your match.
Currently, I have an GoToSotial instance for my family. For single user I propose microblog.dev
Also I started implementing my own ActivityPub server, which primarily aims to run on small hardware. But don't wait for that :)
What I already see is that instances get into troubles, not about costs. It's actually the other way round, they get multiple times their server costs in donations (without the proper business to receive donations) They lack people for administration, moderation and now handling of abuse notifications is getting a thing. And pretty much soon I expect first data privicy violations which end up suing the admin who is working hard on her/his free time to keep the service up and running. It would be really sad if capitalism succeeds to take down mastodon. It's the first time after email where a federated protocol got much attention.
Don't feel urged to run mastodon, there are other solutions which are not that heavy (or written in a language you might know better). Check fediverse.party and find your match.
Currently, I have an GoToSotial instance for my family. For single user I propose microblog.dev
Also I started implementing my own ActivityPub server, which primarily aims to run on small hardware. But don't wait for that :)
What I already see is that instances get into troubles, not about costs. It's actually the other way round, they get multiple times their server costs in donations (without the proper business to receive donations) They lack people for administration, moderation and now handling of abuse notifications is getting a thing. And pretty much soon I expect first data privicy violations which end up suing the admin who is working hard on her/his free time to keep the service up and running. It would be really sad if capitalism succeeds to take down mastodon. It's the first time after email where a federated protocol got much attention.
I'd rather pay someone to host it for me! Where are all the fediverse hosting services?
See a list here: https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/
Yes!!!
Yay, it's on 4.0.2 now. Tag following can be used.
But not viewed.
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/20763
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/20763
Right; famous issue. I think by the time all the new people need to do serious spring cleaning with their followed tags, it might be available.
I have a few issues/improvements I'd like to report, but I don't use Github.
I have a few issues/improvements I'd like to report, but I don't use Github.
Or, of course, show "Hey, you're quitting with unsaved changes. They are kept for you for a month. You can view them in such and such recovery menu. Don't show this again [ ] [OK]".
Is it possible to run a paid Mastodon instance? It would make sense, hardware resource bills (and work time of moderators) need to be paid.
Will Mastodon be the answer to centralized social media? Probably not, but we're learning a ton about federated social media by trying and that knowledge is valuable.
Imagine the Mastodon instance 44 gigadollars could have funded.
> Database: 96GB
> Media storage: 682GB
> Processes: 9
> Threads: 300
> Monthly hosting cost: $1895.50
Holy cow. This is just one instance in the Fediverse. For me the moral of the story is that we are all incredibly valuable to Twitter if they can do all this and more without charging us anything. Also, it makes me want to quit social media all together.
I'm on ioc.exchange and I'm contributing to their hosting costs, but how much is it worth to me? $5 per month? And I'm also contributing to Tusky, my open source Android Mastodon app of choice, as well as a handful of other projects on GitHub. Is this what it takes to disrupt the big tech companies and their surveillance capitalism?
Holy cow. This is just one instance in the Fediverse. For me the moral of the story is that we are all incredibly valuable to Twitter if they can do all this and more without charging us anything. Also, it makes me want to quit social media all together.
I'm on ioc.exchange and I'm contributing to their hosting costs, but how much is it worth to me? $5 per month? And I'm also contributing to Tusky, my open source Android Mastodon app of choice, as well as a handful of other projects on GitHub. Is this what it takes to disrupt the big tech companies and their surveillance capitalism?
Can anybody explain the daily life of a mod and the ROI on paid mods?
I signed onto Fosstodon last week to give Mastodon another try. I found the overall experience to be massively improved (last time I touched it was in 2017) and the recent traction it has gotten puts it well ahead of anything else IMO (I'm also testing out Farcaster and a few other services, but those seem pretty niche/immature in comparison).
While Mastodon is a bit rough around the edges, it has that same sort of excitement to me when I signed onto Twitter back in 2006, and most of those same friends/connections from those early days have been migrating. Based on the numbers floating around, I think it has enough traction now/critical mass to be it's own pretty exciting thing. While a lot of instances will fail, I don't think economic sustainability is actually a showstopper. Patreon, OpenCollective, any number of tools can handle recurrent donations enough to sustain larger instances, and there probably will be some alternative approaches as well. Migrating accounts between Mastodon instances isn't perfect, but is a core built-in feature, so while there's a bit of instance roulette, I don't think it's such a big deal. There are tools like https://fediverse.observer/ that might help for picking. It even has a map view, which is pretty neat: https://fediverse.observer/map
Here's a rough view of ActivityPub growth: https://fediverse.observer/stats
FWIW, I decided early on as I started researching into the current state of the Fediverse/ActivityPub that I should probably run my own instance. There are hosting providers that provide Mastodon hosting (although most of them like Spacebear and Mastohost are oversubscribed), but as I was researching, I decided something like Pleroma or Missykey would be a better fit anyway. There are some forks and I ended up using a fork of Pleroma, Akkoma (since, while a bit involved, it has pretty decent docs for setting up w/ Docker Compose and overall seems like the best-performing of the bunch, and has good support for most Mastodon clients). I was able to repoint my account from the Fosstodon Mastodon instance (which included migrating my followers!) to my new personal Akkoma instance pretty easily (the only wrinkle was setting up webfinger since I decided I wanted my canonical account id to not be a subdomain).
For those looking for a bit of an overview of what the current "Fediverse" landscape looks like, some resources that helped me get started:
* https://fediverse.party/
* https://joinfediverse.wiki/Main_Page
* https://www.paritybit.ca/blog/mastodon-is-dead-long-live-mis...
For clients btw, I'm using Whalebird https://whalebird.social/ and Sengi https://nicolasconstant.github.io/sengi/ on desktop, and Tusky https://tusky.app/ on mobile.
While Mastodon is a bit rough around the edges, it has that same sort of excitement to me when I signed onto Twitter back in 2006, and most of those same friends/connections from those early days have been migrating. Based on the numbers floating around, I think it has enough traction now/critical mass to be it's own pretty exciting thing. While a lot of instances will fail, I don't think economic sustainability is actually a showstopper. Patreon, OpenCollective, any number of tools can handle recurrent donations enough to sustain larger instances, and there probably will be some alternative approaches as well. Migrating accounts between Mastodon instances isn't perfect, but is a core built-in feature, so while there's a bit of instance roulette, I don't think it's such a big deal. There are tools like https://fediverse.observer/ that might help for picking. It even has a map view, which is pretty neat: https://fediverse.observer/map
Here's a rough view of ActivityPub growth: https://fediverse.observer/stats
FWIW, I decided early on as I started researching into the current state of the Fediverse/ActivityPub that I should probably run my own instance. There are hosting providers that provide Mastodon hosting (although most of them like Spacebear and Mastohost are oversubscribed), but as I was researching, I decided something like Pleroma or Missykey would be a better fit anyway. There are some forks and I ended up using a fork of Pleroma, Akkoma (since, while a bit involved, it has pretty decent docs for setting up w/ Docker Compose and overall seems like the best-performing of the bunch, and has good support for most Mastodon clients). I was able to repoint my account from the Fosstodon Mastodon instance (which included migrating my followers!) to my new personal Akkoma instance pretty easily (the only wrinkle was setting up webfinger since I decided I wanted my canonical account id to not be a subdomain).
For those looking for a bit of an overview of what the current "Fediverse" landscape looks like, some resources that helped me get started:
* https://fediverse.party/
* https://joinfediverse.wiki/Main_Page
* https://www.paritybit.ca/blog/mastodon-is-dead-long-live-mis...
For clients btw, I'm using Whalebird https://whalebird.social/ and Sengi https://nicolasconstant.github.io/sengi/ on desktop, and Tusky https://tusky.app/ on mobile.
tough running a popular site w/o a business model
Indeed, seems there is absolutely no way of surviving unless you think about CASH FIRST! Certainly there is no examples such as Wikipedia, Open Collective, Archive.org or others, as they also clearly have very profitable business models and were started with that in mind.
The "issue" here is that this is an instance by friends that's growing too big. This isn't a business idea, or a platform, nor is it a venture or a company. Just like minded people who are on a shared instance. Public signups were open since it was doable. Then Twitter started crumbling (or not - I don't care) and user signups exploded.
IMO the only correct way to handle this is to close public signups to your instance or require a fee from (new?) users.
But there was no mistake on the admins part initially - they just ran a fun instance for a group of like minded people who shared interesting content to each other.
IMO the only correct way to handle this is to close public signups to your instance or require a fee from (new?) users.
But there was no mistake on the admins part initially - they just ran a fun instance for a group of like minded people who shared interesting content to each other.
The only way the fediverse (and by extension the internet) can remain healthy is by introducing more instances. "We don't need platforms, we need protocols."
The way Mastodon is evolving, thousands of users are concentrating on a couple of instances. What happens when a large corporation starts to "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" again? What happens when a large instance decides to push out ads? Do we block that instance when it has 50.000 users?