My coffee maker just makes coffee(bt.ht)
bt.ht
My coffee maker just makes coffee
https://bt.ht/one-thing/
312 comments
> Vote with your feet, and your wallet.
Sure, how do I cast my vote for a non-smart TV? Where do I go to watch my shows via DRM free downloads? How can I find a washing machine that will last for 20 years?
Beyond that, how do I even compare products and find what I want to "vote" for when everything is named something like Sony XP-3000-ZXS Pro that is exactly like the XP-300ZXS Pro+ except one has a water-proof coating and the other comes with patented GB-Free technology (you guess which is which). And to make it harder to compare, the models are subtly different between countries (Oh, you are in Israel? You only get the XP-300ZXS-B Pro+ which is different from the regular Pro+ but we won't tell you how, better look for some local reviews to be sure).
It is obvious that most companies go out of their way to frustrate the customer's attempts to "vote with their wallet". It must be cheaper to just drill a brand name into their heads via ad spending then to actually produce a good product (definitely more scalable if you already have the money to spend on ads...).
...
Apologies, rant over.
Sure, how do I cast my vote for a non-smart TV? Where do I go to watch my shows via DRM free downloads? How can I find a washing machine that will last for 20 years?
Beyond that, how do I even compare products and find what I want to "vote" for when everything is named something like Sony XP-3000-ZXS Pro that is exactly like the XP-300ZXS Pro+ except one has a water-proof coating and the other comes with patented GB-Free technology (you guess which is which). And to make it harder to compare, the models are subtly different between countries (Oh, you are in Israel? You only get the XP-300ZXS-B Pro+ which is different from the regular Pro+ but we won't tell you how, better look for some local reviews to be sure).
It is obvious that most companies go out of their way to frustrate the customer's attempts to "vote with their wallet". It must be cheaper to just drill a brand name into their heads via ad spending then to actually produce a good product (definitely more scalable if you already have the money to spend on ads...).
...
Apologies, rant over.
Sceptre[1] makes non-smart-TVs, Miele[2] washing machines are made to last 20 years.
[1] https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U557CV-UMRB-55-4K-UHD-T... [2] https://www.mieleusa.com/e/washing-machines-1015696-c
[1] https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U557CV-UMRB-55-4K-UHD-T... [2] https://www.mieleusa.com/e/washing-machines-1015696-c
Miele quality has gone really downhill last 10 years. But they do more or less guarantee that you will be able to buy replacement parts for 10 years. (NOT 20!)
As long as they don't offer warranty for 10 years or 20 years, I consider the machine to be on a 5-10 year lifecycle, like most appliances today.
If their machines really would last that long, they would market the hell out of it !explicitly! and offer you that assurance to get your money. Now they are just cruising by on their reputation they built last millenium
The good days are over sadly.
If their machines really would last that long, they would market the hell out of it !explicitly! and offer you that assurance to get your money. Now they are just cruising by on their reputation they built last millenium
The good days are over sadly.
> As long as they don't offer warranty for 10 years or 20 years, I consider the machine to be on a 5-10 year lifecycle, like most appliances today.
That's not how it works. If a product on average lasts 20 years, you can't give a 20-year warranty because life expectancy has a highly skewed distribution. If one out of three machines live for 40 years and two out of three machines live for 10 years, that is 20 years on average, yet you will make a loss on 2/3 of the machines.
> I consider the machine to be on a 5-10 year lifecycle, like most appliances today. The good days are over sadly.
In reality, it's just a rationalization for buying cheap crap: you just assume that all products are equally bad, and then you just buy the cheapest stuff you can find. That's how we ended up where we are now.
That's not how it works. If a product on average lasts 20 years, you can't give a 20-year warranty because life expectancy has a highly skewed distribution. If one out of three machines live for 40 years and two out of three machines live for 10 years, that is 20 years on average, yet you will make a loss on 2/3 of the machines.
> I consider the machine to be on a 5-10 year lifecycle, like most appliances today. The good days are over sadly.
In reality, it's just a rationalization for buying cheap crap: you just assume that all products are equally bad, and then you just buy the cheapest stuff you can find. That's how we ended up where we are now.
Sceptre certainly keeps that hidden! They need better marketers! For that price point and non-smart, I would have absolutely bought recently. But I have never heard of this brand until today.
I have a Sceptre.
Let's just say you get what you pay for. If you're concerned about screen quality, you should probably look elsewhere.
I do love how dumb it is, though!
Let's just say you get what you pay for. If you're concerned about screen quality, you should probably look elsewhere.
I do love how dumb it is, though!
Fisher and Paykel also make washing machines that last.
https://www.fisherpaykel.com/nz/laundry/washing-machines/
https://www.fisherpaykel.com/nz/laundry/washing-machines/
I appreciate your comment for trying to be helpful (and too many sibling comments to reply to also), so apologies if I seem dismissive in my response but...
I've heard of Sceptre via HN (and as a sibling comment points out, their quality is not great), but they aren't available for purchase in my country. In fact, from a quick search of the local aggregator there isn't a single 4k non-smart TV for sale in the country. I've sort of voted with my wallet here and am just using a large computer monitor for now, but I'm not sure there'll be anything available if I ever want to get some of those sweet OLEDs or some HDR.
Another sibling comment also said that recently Miele has started coasting based on their name brand and are no longer producing long-lasting machines, but even if they aren't I won't be able to tell that the next time I find myself in need of a washing machine, which is part of the problem.
I've heard of Sceptre via HN (and as a sibling comment points out, their quality is not great), but they aren't available for purchase in my country. In fact, from a quick search of the local aggregator there isn't a single 4k non-smart TV for sale in the country. I've sort of voted with my wallet here and am just using a large computer monitor for now, but I'm not sure there'll be anything available if I ever want to get some of those sweet OLEDs or some HDR.
Another sibling comment also said that recently Miele has started coasting based on their name brand and are no longer producing long-lasting machines, but even if they aren't I won't be able to tell that the next time I find myself in need of a washing machine, which is part of the problem.
> they aren't available for purchase in my country
As another commter pointed out they are sold as commercial displays and digital signage, but that is a different price range.
> Another sibling comment also said that recently Miele has started coasting
People have always said that. It's an easy excuse to buy the cheapest stuff they can find, but in reality you'll always find products made for commercial customers. An appliance that lasts a dozen years in a hotel, restaurant or airport will last practically forever in a home.
As another commter pointed out they are sold as commercial displays and digital signage, but that is a different price range.
> Another sibling comment also said that recently Miele has started coasting
People have always said that. It's an easy excuse to buy the cheapest stuff they can find, but in reality you'll always find products made for commercial customers. An appliance that lasts a dozen years in a hotel, restaurant or airport will last practically forever in a home.
Everything Sceptre sell appears to be "restock soon" or "out of stock" - is this a real company?
Regardless, they don't appear to retail out of the US, so it's hardly a good option for most people.
Regardless, they don't appear to retail out of the US, so it's hardly a good option for most people.
There are plenty of non-smart TVs, at least, and plenty of HN threads telling you where to look (they are sold as commercial displays and digital signage). You will really have to vote with your wallet, though, because the smart TVs come with hundreds of dollars of price discount based on bundling of streaming service clients and their ability to send consumer tracking data.
Not always - Sony Bravia conference room displays seem to be rebranded consumer models with clean firmware and the price is affordable. Maybe a small markup but nowhere near what you get on a digital signage display (and also it retains all the advantages of a consumer-grade TV such as speakers, remote, etc).
I spent months on this recently. Commercial displays are rarely available in retail quantities (e.g 1) in my country, and the few that are lack basics such as multiple HDMI ports, HDR, etc.
The options may be greater for you, but they're limited for most of us.
The options may be greater for you, but they're limited for most of us.
> everything is named something like Sony XP-3000-ZXS Pro that is exactly like the XP-300ZXS Pro+ except…
This drives me crazy. I don’t get how companies get this so wrong. I just spent hours looking for a tumble dryer and they’re all like that.
Who are the people at these companies who think it’s a good idea to name your product a completely opaque alphanumeric jumble?
This drives me crazy. I don’t get how companies get this so wrong. I just spent hours looking for a tumble dryer and they’re all like that.
Who are the people at these companies who think it’s a good idea to name your product a completely opaque alphanumeric jumble?
Oh I know that one.
It’s because they have slightly different models names for differ markets, and they figured out that using their internal code names was easier than paying someone to come up with easy, memorable names. So the model sold in Delaware is the UX-7200-D, and the one sold in The Netherlands is exactly the same item with a different power cord and instruction booklet. But it’s called NT-376xd because the Netherlands branch is actually a different company that was bought 2 years ago and they are still using their old system which has different codes for products.
It’s because they have slightly different models names for differ markets, and they figured out that using their internal code names was easier than paying someone to come up with easy, memorable names. So the model sold in Delaware is the UX-7200-D, and the one sold in The Netherlands is exactly the same item with a different power cord and instruction booklet. But it’s called NT-376xd because the Netherlands branch is actually a different company that was bought 2 years ago and they are still using their old system which has different codes for products.
I usually have the reverse problem: the "memorable" marketing names are vague and have no clear indication of what's newer or what's better. Sometimes each is trying to convince you it's the best[1], meanwhile the internal engineering designations (sometimes discoverable on or in the product) more commonly have a clear progression[2], despite alphanumeric soup (a 2300X -Q3N is likely older than a 2317X-1A, and both are inferior to a 2600X-PTN-J).
Seems to me, Motorola's phone names in USA went off the deep end sometime after the Moto G7, while international versions of many of the same phones retained their nice simple sequential numbering scheme.
[1] Don't get me started on people who produce n versions of something then decide to name the next version "One" (or similar) "because its the only One you need, the best One; it's The One!" (when they really mean, "Weird, people can't figure out why they should upgrade when we didn't change anything much!")…which of course just screws them when they next try to get people to upgrade. …Oh, seems I got very thoroughly started. :faceplant:
[2] Ignoring Sharp models for their phones and tablets, which can have name elements where a descending sequence in part of the name and an ascending sequence in another part of the same name identify whether this is a higher or lower model. And ignoring Apple, which decades ago decided reusing model IDs over and over is FineTM, forcing horrible things like "Well, it's a late 2015 iBook 15-inch with the <special feature that means you have a different case/keboard/camera/…> and the <special upgrade that means you have a different motherboard>".
Seems to me, Motorola's phone names in USA went off the deep end sometime after the Moto G7, while international versions of many of the same phones retained their nice simple sequential numbering scheme.
[1] Don't get me started on people who produce n versions of something then decide to name the next version "One" (or similar) "because its the only One you need, the best One; it's The One!" (when they really mean, "Weird, people can't figure out why they should upgrade when we didn't change anything much!")…which of course just screws them when they next try to get people to upgrade. …Oh, seems I got very thoroughly started. :faceplant:
[2] Ignoring Sharp models for their phones and tablets, which can have name elements where a descending sequence in part of the name and an ascending sequence in another part of the same name identify whether this is a higher or lower model. And ignoring Apple, which decades ago decided reusing model IDs over and over is FineTM, forcing horrible things like "Well, it's a late 2015 iBook 15-inch with the <special feature that means you have a different case/keboard/camera/…> and the <special upgrade that means you have a different motherboard>".
> How can I find a washing machine that will last for 20 years?
Try:
Don't buy one. There are plenty of other options. Computer monitors, for example, can double for a display and TV. This one is excellent (had mine for about a year without any problems):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B099PJ8SPT
Try:
site:reddit.com inurl:BuyItForLife "washing machine"
Don't buy one. There are plenty of other options. Computer monitors, for example, can double for a display and TV. This one is excellent (had mine for about a year without any problems):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B099PJ8SPT
reddit is chock-full of astroturfing and someone's washer brand lasting 20 years doesn't mean their modern model will last 20 years.
>How can I find a washing machine that will last for 20 years?
In all seriousness, check second hand sites like Facebook Marketplace.
The price of an item new in the shops often has low correlation with its quality, but second-hand markets are ridiculously frugal and rational.
Even if you don't want to buy used goods, the fact that an item which cost $499 ten years ago still sells for $300 used is a real testament to the quality of the brand.
Low quality crap will usually lose at least 50% of its value once you've opened the box, and another 50% yet again after just a couple of years' use.
In all seriousness, check second hand sites like Facebook Marketplace.
The price of an item new in the shops often has low correlation with its quality, but second-hand markets are ridiculously frugal and rational.
Even if you don't want to buy used goods, the fact that an item which cost $499 ten years ago still sells for $300 used is a real testament to the quality of the brand.
Low quality crap will usually lose at least 50% of its value once you've opened the box, and another 50% yet again after just a couple of years' use.
I do this exactly. My washer and dryer are both over 20 years old and cost less than $200 each, used and mechanically refurbished. They have a couple dials each and do their jobs predictably.
assuming the brand still has the same standards today as they had 10 years ago. In many many cases that is not the case. After 2008-2012 quality of appliances reeeallllly went downhill
> How can I find a washing machine that will last for 20 years?
I know this one! You buy one build in the 70's maybe 80's chose the ones with crazy rpm
I know this one! You buy one build in the 70's maybe 80's chose the ones with crazy rpm
Bought a smart tv, but don't use the smart parts. The invitation to use the smart features closes itself after about 15 seconds, no problem.
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> Vote with your feet, and your wallet. Companies build what sells.
This is the defeatist attitude that largely explains why we're stuck in this race to the bottom.
A lot of the mass produced stuff we surround and find ourselves surrounded with has gotten worse. This is not because people want worse things. It is because of hidden and opaque incentive structures that are completely misdirected. By leaving it to the market with such a pithy attitude, we divest collective responsibility and instead assign it to some mystical process.
Coffee makers are the least of it. Our material surroundings absolutely suck. Like, in america, it's absolutely degrading how the wealthiest society ever on this planet is basically made real in plastic, disposable, malfunctioning shit. For my own sanity, I have to reject that this state of affairs is the expression of our collective wishes through the workings of the market.
This is the defeatist attitude that largely explains why we're stuck in this race to the bottom.
A lot of the mass produced stuff we surround and find ourselves surrounded with has gotten worse. This is not because people want worse things. It is because of hidden and opaque incentive structures that are completely misdirected. By leaving it to the market with such a pithy attitude, we divest collective responsibility and instead assign it to some mystical process.
Coffee makers are the least of it. Our material surroundings absolutely suck. Like, in america, it's absolutely degrading how the wealthiest society ever on this planet is basically made real in plastic, disposable, malfunctioning shit. For my own sanity, I have to reject that this state of affairs is the expression of our collective wishes through the workings of the market.
Oh, I'm not being defeatist about it, just trying to offer the best practical advice I have.
> Like, in america, it's absolutely degrading how the wealthiest society ever on this planet is basically made real in plastic, disposable, malfunctioning shit. For my own sanity, I have to reject that this state of affairs is the expression of our collective wishes through the workings of the market.
I agree with you. People in this society are making the best choices they can from a selection of poor or harmful options. We're programmed from birth to place value on things that have no inherent value. Our society in the USA is rich but ungenerous, which is awfully strange. The country as a whole generates vastly more resources than necessary to keep everyone in it safe, healthy, and fed, and yet we allocate those resources towards other things (e.g., entertainment, over-consumption, concentration of resources in the hands of a few).
That's all a much bigger problem than coffee makers, but they're inextricably tied. Personally I don't think we can solve the coffee maker problem without solving the legalized political bribery / "campaign finance" problem first; that blocks progress on many obviously humane ideas.
> Like, in america, it's absolutely degrading how the wealthiest society ever on this planet is basically made real in plastic, disposable, malfunctioning shit. For my own sanity, I have to reject that this state of affairs is the expression of our collective wishes through the workings of the market.
I agree with you. People in this society are making the best choices they can from a selection of poor or harmful options. We're programmed from birth to place value on things that have no inherent value. Our society in the USA is rich but ungenerous, which is awfully strange. The country as a whole generates vastly more resources than necessary to keep everyone in it safe, healthy, and fed, and yet we allocate those resources towards other things (e.g., entertainment, over-consumption, concentration of resources in the hands of a few).
That's all a much bigger problem than coffee makers, but they're inextricably tied. Personally I don't think we can solve the coffee maker problem without solving the legalized political bribery / "campaign finance" problem first; that blocks progress on many obviously humane ideas.
> just trying to offer the best practical advice I have
It's good advice. But imho it doesn't scale in the way it should, in the way the "invisible hand" should work.
The main thing is that imho consumers have too little leverage to really make meaningful impact.
e.g. I have a microwave form '82 that still works flawlessly. That was a bargain model at the time. More recent "luxury" appliances have broken within 10 years of ownership on me. How can a consumer, today, possibly be certain they're getting the high quality thing that will last decades? It's absolutely impossible, standing in a store, choosing a thing based on price/feature-set to get the durable vs disposable. That trade-off just cannot be made for the majority of material things in stores.
The same with feature-less vs feature-full. Once you go feature-less, options completely dwindle. That's the curse. If the market does work, it flattens everything not to best-of-breed or bang-for-buck but instead to lowest-common-denominator, sub-optimal.
> Our society in the USA is rich but ungenerous, which is awfully strange.
100%
> I don't think we can solve the coffee maker problem without solving the legalized political bribery
also, 100%
It's good advice. But imho it doesn't scale in the way it should, in the way the "invisible hand" should work.
The main thing is that imho consumers have too little leverage to really make meaningful impact.
e.g. I have a microwave form '82 that still works flawlessly. That was a bargain model at the time. More recent "luxury" appliances have broken within 10 years of ownership on me. How can a consumer, today, possibly be certain they're getting the high quality thing that will last decades? It's absolutely impossible, standing in a store, choosing a thing based on price/feature-set to get the durable vs disposable. That trade-off just cannot be made for the majority of material things in stores.
The same with feature-less vs feature-full. Once you go feature-less, options completely dwindle. That's the curse. If the market does work, it flattens everything not to best-of-breed or bang-for-buck but instead to lowest-common-denominator, sub-optimal.
> Our society in the USA is rich but ungenerous, which is awfully strange.
100%
> I don't think we can solve the coffee maker problem without solving the legalized political bribery
also, 100%
>It is because of hidden and opaque incentive structures that are completely misdirected.
While this is true, the parent is still true too. The issue is that companies make these cheap, easily broken devices and consumers keep buying them because the alternative is living with the inconvenience of not having that class of product. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's the truth. Unless people stop buying Keurig coffee-makers with dual functions, the data these companies are using for marketing and development show that that's what people buy.
The choice here is: If I don't want to support these cheap Keurig junk machines, do I just buy another cheap junk machine from someone else or do I buy a French Press and make my coffee the old-fashioned way in the morning? I'm trading convenience for quality. Despite what you think, that's still a choice that consumers make that fuels the race to the bottom.
While this is true, the parent is still true too. The issue is that companies make these cheap, easily broken devices and consumers keep buying them because the alternative is living with the inconvenience of not having that class of product. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's the truth. Unless people stop buying Keurig coffee-makers with dual functions, the data these companies are using for marketing and development show that that's what people buy.
The choice here is: If I don't want to support these cheap Keurig junk machines, do I just buy another cheap junk machine from someone else or do I buy a French Press and make my coffee the old-fashioned way in the morning? I'm trading convenience for quality. Despite what you think, that's still a choice that consumers make that fuels the race to the bottom.
> The issue is that companies make these cheap, easily broken devices and consumers keep buying them because the alternative is living with the inconvenience of not having that class of product.
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
I'm familiar with the Boots theory but that's not really what I meant. Boots are a necessity. Coffee makers are a luxury.
those old porcelain hand cranked grinders offer just the right amount of exercise for the morning, you put it in a glass filter like professional coffee tasters use. Or at least, those are my thoughts/memories every day while I stand there waiting in front of my fully automatic machine that resembles an alien space ship.
Lots of people genuinely do prefer the cheaper (and thus lower quality) product. There isn’t always such a trade off, and there are other reasons to buys things. But low price is commonly a dominant factor.
No, Americans have seen their real take home pay stagnate for fifty years while the major costs of being alive have significantly increased, and thus are stuck using the same pile of money to attempt to pay for and obtain necessary and desirable things for less than they would have previously.
They don't prefer cheaper, they can't afford not cheaper
"They don't make it like they used to" is like a society wide exclamation that you can't buy high quality stuff anymore because nobody can afford to buy high quality stuff so nobody can afford to make high quality stuff.
This lower basket of income also means americans can't afford to pay the going rates for labor to fix their stuff, meaning something being repairable isn't useful or beneficial in any way, so everything becomes disposable.
Small towns used to have niche repair businesses, but who can afford to spend $100 on getting a boot repaired, especially when a new boot is $80 at walmart. So now the cobbler has to shutter his business and he can't afford good stuff anymore either, so now if you DO buy the expensive boots and need them repaired to make them worth their price, you have to seek out a much more expensive specialist or do it yourself which most people cannot do. Money was basically shipped out of local economies into giant megacorps.
A lot of stuff isn't even significantly less repairable then it used to be. Flatscreen TVs are super reliable now that they are solid state, with the one exception of the AC power circuitry. Anyone with $20 and a multimeter and youtube and a little confidence can watch tutorials to debug and fix a blown cap on the power supply, but nobody could really run a business on charging $100 to repair $200 flat panel TVs because people can't afford that.
Meanwhile "Electronics repair" used to be a common small town business.
They don't prefer cheaper, they can't afford not cheaper
"They don't make it like they used to" is like a society wide exclamation that you can't buy high quality stuff anymore because nobody can afford to buy high quality stuff so nobody can afford to make high quality stuff.
This lower basket of income also means americans can't afford to pay the going rates for labor to fix their stuff, meaning something being repairable isn't useful or beneficial in any way, so everything becomes disposable.
Small towns used to have niche repair businesses, but who can afford to spend $100 on getting a boot repaired, especially when a new boot is $80 at walmart. So now the cobbler has to shutter his business and he can't afford good stuff anymore either, so now if you DO buy the expensive boots and need them repaired to make them worth their price, you have to seek out a much more expensive specialist or do it yourself which most people cannot do. Money was basically shipped out of local economies into giant megacorps.
A lot of stuff isn't even significantly less repairable then it used to be. Flatscreen TVs are super reliable now that they are solid state, with the one exception of the AC power circuitry. Anyone with $20 and a multimeter and youtube and a little confidence can watch tutorials to debug and fix a blown cap on the power supply, but nobody could really run a business on charging $100 to repair $200 flat panel TVs because people can't afford that.
Meanwhile "Electronics repair" used to be a common small town business.
> By leaving it to the market with such a pithy attitude, we divest collective responsibility and instead assign it to some mystical process.
I think of it the other way around. If you do not vote with your wallet/feet, then you are avoiding taking responsibility for your personal decisions. The act of purchasing something creates a very small signal, but a signal all the same. It's not unlike civic duty and how a single vote is virtually meaningless but in aggregate is powerful.
I think of it the other way around. If you do not vote with your wallet/feet, then you are avoiding taking responsibility for your personal decisions. The act of purchasing something creates a very small signal, but a signal all the same. It's not unlike civic duty and how a single vote is virtually meaningless but in aggregate is powerful.
> The act of purchasing something creates a very small signal, but a signal all the same.
I agree with that certainly. Change starts individually. It really does, I mean that genuinely. As persons, as actual men and women in this world, we need to internalize the values we like to see flourish in the world. We just must. It would not be honorable if we did not.
> but in aggregate is powerful
The sleight of hand though is that this individual action, in and of itself, can always bring about meaningful change in every situation. It cannot. This disconnect between individual action and aggregate outcome is the main characteristic of a tragedy of the commons. To go back to the coffee maker example, the fact that our world is, well, quite literally, trash is such a tragedy. These traps never resolve solely bottom-up, without coordination.
> It's not unlike civic duty and how a single vote
Voting is a good example really. A vote is the lowest, least effective way to perform our civic duty. To see the change we like to see in the world, to do our civic duty, we must advocate, picket, canvas, stand on soapboxes, fraternize, run for office, assemble, cajole, badger, pick up arms, ... That is what it means to participate in civic society. A vote, that single small signal, means nothing, if we do not actively shape what we vote for.
fwiw - I really don't think we disagree. Just wanted to expand on that train of thought a little.
I agree with that certainly. Change starts individually. It really does, I mean that genuinely. As persons, as actual men and women in this world, we need to internalize the values we like to see flourish in the world. We just must. It would not be honorable if we did not.
> but in aggregate is powerful
The sleight of hand though is that this individual action, in and of itself, can always bring about meaningful change in every situation. It cannot. This disconnect between individual action and aggregate outcome is the main characteristic of a tragedy of the commons. To go back to the coffee maker example, the fact that our world is, well, quite literally, trash is such a tragedy. These traps never resolve solely bottom-up, without coordination.
> It's not unlike civic duty and how a single vote
Voting is a good example really. A vote is the lowest, least effective way to perform our civic duty. To see the change we like to see in the world, to do our civic duty, we must advocate, picket, canvas, stand on soapboxes, fraternize, run for office, assemble, cajole, badger, pick up arms, ... That is what it means to participate in civic society. A vote, that single small signal, means nothing, if we do not actively shape what we vote for.
fwiw - I really don't think we disagree. Just wanted to expand on that train of thought a little.
Thanks for expanding on that train of thought. Your elaboration with civic duty is apt.
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> First, you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features
Well no. I bought it because I didn't have a choice. (Literal coffee makers are actually an exception here). I bought the featurefull version because i wanted a specific feature and my options were basic with 7 features I don't need, pro with 19 features I don't need and ultra with 200 features i don't need and the 1 i do need.
Or maybe some obscure other brand has exactly what i need but discovering it is impossible because all 10^9 drop shippers sell only the basic and pro model above, and the rest of the brands are just white label rebrands of the above with slightly different plastic molding and some of the features disabled.
Well no. I bought it because I didn't have a choice. (Literal coffee makers are actually an exception here). I bought the featurefull version because i wanted a specific feature and my options were basic with 7 features I don't need, pro with 19 features I don't need and ultra with 200 features i don't need and the 1 i do need.
Or maybe some obscure other brand has exactly what i need but discovering it is impossible because all 10^9 drop shippers sell only the basic and pro model above, and the rest of the brands are just white label rebrands of the above with slightly different plastic molding and some of the features disabled.
It does take two to tango, but this response is frustrating to me because it illustrates the lack of ethics/expectations in the design profession/community. (I am also a designer)
Companies create the problems the features purport to solve, not the market. Yadda yadda faster horse quote, but it's true: people don't ask for (or need) much … so where does the divergence come from?
To designers: Why do we allow such rubbish to be created? We know we can't put up too much fuss or we'll be worked around or replaced … by another designer who will willingly turn the crank for the biscuit. How do we not have more to push back with?
Companies create the problems the features purport to solve, not the market. Yadda yadda faster horse quote, but it's true: people don't ask for (or need) much … so where does the divergence come from?
To designers: Why do we allow such rubbish to be created? We know we can't put up too much fuss or we'll be worked around or replaced … by another designer who will willingly turn the crank for the biscuit. How do we not have more to push back with?
I actually laughed out loud when I clicked the link and it was Keurig. K-cups rank right up there with Dyson imho. Yea, it kind of solves a problem, but mostly it's great marketing.
They created a problem people didn't realize they had, drove demand for a solution no one asked for, and charge a premium so you can create more waste per cup.
But, it's cheaper then stopping at Starbucks...
They created a problem people didn't realize they had, drove demand for a solution no one asked for, and charge a premium so you can create more waste per cup.
But, it's cheaper then stopping at Starbucks...
> K-cups rank right up there with Dyson imho. Yea, it kind of solves a problem, but mostly it's great marketing
This ignores the fact that Dyson invented the modern bagless cyclonic upright vacuum design that was subsequently adopted by the whole industry. Without that improved design, I suspect that Dyson would have had a harder time displacing Hoover in the UK, where "hoovering" was (and is?) a generic term for "vacuuming." (Though I suppose Xerox and Kleenex have been somewhat displaced in the US in spite of their history as generic terms for photocopying and tissues, and Apple discontinued the iPod even though "podcast" had become a generic term. Etc..)
(Apple is also frequently criticized as an overpriced, marketing-driven company; in my opinion this ignores Apple's troubles before products such as the iPod, iPhone, iPad, and Apple Watch transformed their respective categories.)
I bought a refurbished Dyson DC07 vacuum years ago that I'm still using; besides its performance I like the way the parts snap together and the associated labeling/diagrams.
It is made of plastic though, and I could imagine parts becoming brittle and eventually breaking. Electrolux canister vacuums from the 1930s still work and you can get bags for them, but they lose suction as the bags fill up, and you have to buy bags periodically.
This ignores the fact that Dyson invented the modern bagless cyclonic upright vacuum design that was subsequently adopted by the whole industry. Without that improved design, I suspect that Dyson would have had a harder time displacing Hoover in the UK, where "hoovering" was (and is?) a generic term for "vacuuming." (Though I suppose Xerox and Kleenex have been somewhat displaced in the US in spite of their history as generic terms for photocopying and tissues, and Apple discontinued the iPod even though "podcast" had become a generic term. Etc..)
(Apple is also frequently criticized as an overpriced, marketing-driven company; in my opinion this ignores Apple's troubles before products such as the iPod, iPhone, iPad, and Apple Watch transformed their respective categories.)
I bought a refurbished Dyson DC07 vacuum years ago that I'm still using; besides its performance I like the way the parts snap together and the associated labeling/diagrams.
It is made of plastic though, and I could imagine parts becoming brittle and eventually breaking. Electrolux canister vacuums from the 1930s still work and you can get bags for them, but they lose suction as the bags fill up, and you have to buy bags periodically.
My Dyson vacuum cleaner has been exceptionally good for like a decade now.
Keurigs make horrendous coffee and create orders of magnitude more waste. I'm not sure how they're the same.
Keurigs make horrendous coffee and create orders of magnitude more waste. I'm not sure how they're the same.
Dyson takes the cheapest panasonic parts that exists, puts a fancy case around it, and sells it for massive margins. Here's a detailed teardown of a dyson vacuum: https://youtu.be/NPTzNJMd19A
Try a Miele next time, that's a genuine high quality vacuum cleaner that will last you a lifetime.
Try a Miele next time, that's a genuine high quality vacuum cleaner that will last you a lifetime.
While they are probably overpriced, if you buy from Dyson you know you are getting pretty good quality. My prior vacuums were from Shark and Hoover and they sucked in the wrong way. While I probably could have gotten a decent vacuum from one of those well-known generic vacuum companies, going with Dyson assured I'd get something much better than I previously had. If I saw a Miele vacuum on the shelf, I'd have no idea what to expect, given have never heard of the brand before.
Miele is a well-known up-market household appliances and devices manufacturer from Germany. Generally Miele is considered to last a lifetime, though their first few wifi enabled appliances and devices were horrible.
Many years ago my father-in-law gave us a commercial vacuum (Windsor Sensor) that's typically used in hotels and hospitals. The thing's built like a tank and is easily serviced. It's a good choice if you don't mind a heavy vacuum, and it's only incrementally more expensive than a Dyson.
We looked at what the staff were using a couple of hotels and bought the ORECK XL COMMERCIAL. It is a simple vacuum with bags so it’s easy to clean. No extra features to break. The price was much cheaper than any Dyson vacuum. It’s been dead reliable for over 10 years and seems like it will just keep running.
I have a Miele C4 and there’s no way it’s going to last a lifetime. The mechanicals may be metal but everything else is made of plastic that seems to be getting more brittle as time passes. Mine has cracks and has broken in a couple of places and so far I’ve been able to glue it, but I should probably replace the case. Miele doesn’t seem to carry these parts for mine anymore so looking for used parts on eBay is probably my only solution.
Rather than take a chance buying somebody else’s cracked case, I’m probably going to replace it. When I do, I’m going to spend less money next time understanding that I’ll have to replace it after 5-10 years.
Rather than take a chance buying somebody else’s cracked case, I’m probably going to replace it. When I do, I’m going to spend less money next time understanding that I’ll have to replace it after 5-10 years.
How'd that happen? I'm using a Complete C2, in fact, "abusing it" would be a more apt description considering how careless I've treated it at times, and it's still in perfect shape. (I did break one of those telescope tubes though).
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Out of curiosity, how are any of these consumer-grade vacuums better than an entry-level shop vac you can get for 30 bucks?
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More often than not in my experience feature creep originates from marketing/sales. It's their job to sell more units, if that doesn't happen they get a bad review.
Frankly, "Make product X do more stuff" is a legitimate way for them to accomplish their goals. But I tend to think if your primary market is sufficiently large, it's better to go deep on solving a specific problem better than anyone else. That said it sure seems like a lot (most?) of the biggest successes in software, from Windows and Office to WeChat, bundle in everything but the kitchen sink.
Frankly, "Make product X do more stuff" is a legitimate way for them to accomplish their goals. But I tend to think if your primary market is sufficiently large, it's better to go deep on solving a specific problem better than anyone else. That said it sure seems like a lot (most?) of the biggest successes in software, from Windows and Office to WeChat, bundle in everything but the kitchen sink.
A big part of product and marketing is “differentiation”. You have to give the customer a reason to select your product over N other possibilities in the market.
If your functions are a subset of everyone else, and your only benefit is “it works better”, it’s a tough sell. And in a lot of cases people don’t care - eg if your appliance product lasts 5 years compared to 3 years, but studies show on average consumers will upgrade every 2 years (maybe they receive one as a gift), then you don’t stand out at all.
It’s just basic product/marketing that if you can say “hey ours has a timer and no one else does” you can draw a lot of customers. It’s your foot in the door, but you should also strive to compete in the fundamentals
If your functions are a subset of everyone else, and your only benefit is “it works better”, it’s a tough sell. And in a lot of cases people don’t care - eg if your appliance product lasts 5 years compared to 3 years, but studies show on average consumers will upgrade every 2 years (maybe they receive one as a gift), then you don’t stand out at all.
It’s just basic product/marketing that if you can say “hey ours has a timer and no one else does” you can draw a lot of customers. It’s your foot in the door, but you should also strive to compete in the fundamentals
Makes sense. I think the OP is not unsympathetic, although not as familiar with what it's like to be a designer.
> The only advice I can give to designers is this: try not to add to the problem. I'm not asking you to move mountains, but maybe consider working somewhere else if your career exists solely to add more bloat to the world. (Easier said than done, I know). Or keep doing what you're doing. What do I know - I'm just some guy who rambles on the web.
Designers in graphic and physical design, with regard to over-complexity and physical waste, which the OP was talking about with the coffee maker -- have been talking about this, and about what the designer's ethical responsibility is in an environment where the business constraints/pressures may be to create things that don't make things better for people... for 50 years now.
https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/why-ken-garlands-first-things-f...
> The only advice I can give to designers is this: try not to add to the problem. I'm not asking you to move mountains, but maybe consider working somewhere else if your career exists solely to add more bloat to the world. (Easier said than done, I know). Or keep doing what you're doing. What do I know - I'm just some guy who rambles on the web.
Designers in graphic and physical design, with regard to over-complexity and physical waste, which the OP was talking about with the coffee maker -- have been talking about this, and about what the designer's ethical responsibility is in an environment where the business constraints/pressures may be to create things that don't make things better for people... for 50 years now.
https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/why-ken-garlands-first-things-f...
Yes, basically the only way to sell the one-purpose, well-made solution is to target customers/clients who already got burned with the more popular option. Which means that you confine your product to a small or professional niche.
That's where the product lines Professional, Commercial and Industrial come from! Oftentimes you'll notice these items have fewer features but a higher build quality.
Yes, exactly, that's what I do as much as possible. I have a commercial microwave with literally one control, and a handle; it doesn't even have buttons. I expect it to outlive me, given that I put it through 1/1000 the duty cycle of the commercial kitchen for which it's designed.
> First, you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features. Everyone wants features. If you want to sell an appliance today, you have to cram in more features, and do it more cheaply than the competition.
Is this true for all appliances?
The toaster and the refrigerator seem functionally complete to me.
More features = more problems = I don't want them for my toaster.
Is this true for all appliances?
The toaster and the refrigerator seem functionally complete to me.
More features = more problems = I don't want them for my toaster.
> ... the refrigerator seem functionally complete to me.
And yet fridges are the first product in the kitchen to receive a 24-inch monitor from Samsung :P :P
And yet fridges are the first product in the kitchen to receive a 24-inch monitor from Samsung :P :P
Want some DRM with that?
https://www.ifixit.com/News/41709/welcome-to-drm-water-ges-i...
All I could find for toasters was short fiction... for now
https://www.ifixit.com/News/41709/welcome-to-drm-water-ges-i...
All I could find for toasters was short fiction... for now
>First, you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features. Everyone wants features. If you want to sell an appliance today, you have to cram in more features, and do it more cheaply than the competition.
I'm in retail (e-commerce, selling retro video games), and this is 100% my experience.
There is a certain type of customer who is prepared to pay extra for quality and durability, but they are swamped by the overwhelming majority of the market who try to optimise for features and price.
It's reached the stage now where we no longer even bother bundling official accessories with many consoles we sell, as the overwhelming majority of people will not just prefer but pay extra to get bigger bundles containing multiple third-party controllers, ludicrously large Alibaba memory cards and "free" copies of FIFA/Assassin's Creed (which are otherwise so low-value we actually gut them to re-use the case).
The same market will also pay an extra $40 or so to get a 1TB HDD installed in their PS3s, even though the average person probably only uses 10-20GB (it reached the point where we always upgrade anything smaller than 500GB as it doesn't make economic sense to do otherwise).
It really is understated how badly people want features, even ones they'll never use or get in the way of their enjoyment of the product.
I'm in retail (e-commerce, selling retro video games), and this is 100% my experience.
There is a certain type of customer who is prepared to pay extra for quality and durability, but they are swamped by the overwhelming majority of the market who try to optimise for features and price.
It's reached the stage now where we no longer even bother bundling official accessories with many consoles we sell, as the overwhelming majority of people will not just prefer but pay extra to get bigger bundles containing multiple third-party controllers, ludicrously large Alibaba memory cards and "free" copies of FIFA/Assassin's Creed (which are otherwise so low-value we actually gut them to re-use the case).
The same market will also pay an extra $40 or so to get a 1TB HDD installed in their PS3s, even though the average person probably only uses 10-20GB (it reached the point where we always upgrade anything smaller than 500GB as it doesn't make economic sense to do otherwise).
It really is understated how badly people want features, even ones they'll never use or get in the way of their enjoyment of the product.
There's a few things going on here though.
If you're buying a PS3 bundle you probably don't already own a PS3. So you probably don't know what storage you will actually need.
The games may be worthless to you, but if you wanted to actually buy it, it's going to cost something even if it's to cover the postage.
3rd party controllers. If you know they're going to be used regularly then 1st party is the way to go, but a second controller for me has always been a little used just in case thing.
And this is all assuming it isn't a parent buying it for child, that has no idea what they're after, and a buying a bundle so they know it will all work together.
I think you're also underestimating the value add. If I buy an AliExpress memory card, I have to work out if it's going to work as advertised etc, if it doesn't I then have the pain of getting my money back and waiting for a replacement. If I buy from you as part of a bigger purchase I have an expectation that you've found a card that works, and presumably don't want to torpedo a $100+ sale over a $2 memory card.
If I were to buy a PS3 now, I would need at least a subset of these things, I would have to work out compatibility, wait for everything to arrive, and if it doesn't all work, I have to work out what the issue is an sort a replacement. All in all, if you sell me all the elements, if it doesn't work, I get some come back, even that copy of assassin's creed. I may never play it, but if it doesn't work, it stops me being in a situation where game seller says the games are ok, you need to clean the optical drive, and the console seller saying the games are scratched.
If you're buying a PS3 bundle you probably don't already own a PS3. So you probably don't know what storage you will actually need.
The games may be worthless to you, but if you wanted to actually buy it, it's going to cost something even if it's to cover the postage.
3rd party controllers. If you know they're going to be used regularly then 1st party is the way to go, but a second controller for me has always been a little used just in case thing.
And this is all assuming it isn't a parent buying it for child, that has no idea what they're after, and a buying a bundle so they know it will all work together.
I think you're also underestimating the value add. If I buy an AliExpress memory card, I have to work out if it's going to work as advertised etc, if it doesn't I then have the pain of getting my money back and waiting for a replacement. If I buy from you as part of a bigger purchase I have an expectation that you've found a card that works, and presumably don't want to torpedo a $100+ sale over a $2 memory card.
If I were to buy a PS3 now, I would need at least a subset of these things, I would have to work out compatibility, wait for everything to arrive, and if it doesn't all work, I have to work out what the issue is an sort a replacement. All in all, if you sell me all the elements, if it doesn't work, I get some come back, even that copy of assassin's creed. I may never play it, but if it doesn't work, it stops me being in a situation where game seller says the games are ok, you need to clean the optical drive, and the console seller saying the games are scratched.
> Vote with your feet
The problem with this is that it is an ambiguous signal. If a product is best on 3/4 features that I care about, buying it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about that fourth feature. Likewise, not buying it would suggest that I don’t care about those other three features, which isn’t the case.
Voting with your feet only makes sense when there is one feature you care about. For example for insurance with a minimum amount of coverage, the only factor I care about is price.
The problem with this is that it is an ambiguous signal. If a product is best on 3/4 features that I care about, buying it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about that fourth feature. Likewise, not buying it would suggest that I don’t care about those other three features, which isn’t the case.
Voting with your feet only makes sense when there is one feature you care about. For example for insurance with a minimum amount of coverage, the only factor I care about is price.
> If you want companies to produce simpler, higher-quality products, then search out and buy those products. Vote with your feet, and your wallet. Companies build what sells.
But what sells is only that which is for sale.
How do I vote with my wallet for products that companies refuse to build?
In nearly every market category, I want products which are extremely simple, easy to maintain, difficult to break (due to simplicity) and built to the highest possible standard of craftsmanship. Turns out that in nearly every market category, such products don't exist.
But what sells is only that which is for sale.
How do I vote with my wallet for products that companies refuse to build?
In nearly every market category, I want products which are extremely simple, easy to maintain, difficult to break (due to simplicity) and built to the highest possible standard of craftsmanship. Turns out that in nearly every market category, such products don't exist.
[deleted]
I'm very sympathetic to designs at the beck and call of someone else making the decision on features, but I'm not sure that some of the points above are the right way to frame it.
> you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features. Everyone wants features.
I don't think this is accurate for a substantial part of the population. A novel-length feature list is a guaranteed way to ensure that no one really understands what your product does. A product I worked on had the usual hundreds of features and novel-length user guide, and probably one of the most common questions our support team would ingest was "can product X do thing Y?" which was even just a quick online search away.
Featureful updates I think look better for the people investing in the product, not the ones selling/buying it. It justifies expenditures, can be correlated to growth/progress, etc. For specialized products, e.g., coffee makers, I have personal doubts that a substantial amount of buyers care much more than reading a few reviews to confirm that the product "makes good coffee" or " is easy to clean".
> Second, that designer likely has as much real agency as the engineers building the firmware for the control board. Corporate mandated 12 months ago, “A coffee maker with features A, B, and C and price point P and trim level T.” The designer likely has no place to argue with any of that. A product marketing executive made these decisions, and for one reason — to build what sells.
This one I agree with mostly, except for the "build what sells" part. What sells is what the company effectively SEO spams and price-points well within the market. Let's not forget Juicero's history and how well it sold until someone did the groundbreaking journalism of actually using the device and showing how ridiculous it was. I think it helps support the idea that enough moxy/aggressive marketing, you can get just about anything to fly for awhile to turn a profit. And Juicero is just one example of many such things; I doubt that the executive guidance on Juicero was anything more than "Make it squish these bags, read our juice DRM, and set up a subscription service to buy more juice bags."
The answer to this is pretty complex I guess, as voting with our wallets is historically pretty ineffective at enacting change. There are a lot of tricks that can be used to make hot garbage a top seller; Amazon is raking in billions doing just this and has been for years, despite constant outrage articles and proof of the garbage-ness of the services.
At a certain point, change does need to come from within the company rather than external pressures; the market gets fooled really easily by fancy enough presentations and rich enough people talking about a failed product for 30 seconds.
I think that's why the author made the call-out; I read it as fairly tongue in cheek, but it has an element of truth that the pushback likely needs to come internally; I think the author though, and many people, realize this is not as simple of a situation as that though for the points you mentioned about executive decisions. I don't think designers should completely abandon their agency though on products; saving money is pretty persuasive to the decision makers, and probably _that_ is the best way to influence products via a wallet. Just it's the company's wallet, not the consumers.
> you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features. Everyone wants features.
I don't think this is accurate for a substantial part of the population. A novel-length feature list is a guaranteed way to ensure that no one really understands what your product does. A product I worked on had the usual hundreds of features and novel-length user guide, and probably one of the most common questions our support team would ingest was "can product X do thing Y?" which was even just a quick online search away.
Featureful updates I think look better for the people investing in the product, not the ones selling/buying it. It justifies expenditures, can be correlated to growth/progress, etc. For specialized products, e.g., coffee makers, I have personal doubts that a substantial amount of buyers care much more than reading a few reviews to confirm that the product "makes good coffee" or " is easy to clean".
> Second, that designer likely has as much real agency as the engineers building the firmware for the control board. Corporate mandated 12 months ago, “A coffee maker with features A, B, and C and price point P and trim level T.” The designer likely has no place to argue with any of that. A product marketing executive made these decisions, and for one reason — to build what sells.
This one I agree with mostly, except for the "build what sells" part. What sells is what the company effectively SEO spams and price-points well within the market. Let's not forget Juicero's history and how well it sold until someone did the groundbreaking journalism of actually using the device and showing how ridiculous it was. I think it helps support the idea that enough moxy/aggressive marketing, you can get just about anything to fly for awhile to turn a profit. And Juicero is just one example of many such things; I doubt that the executive guidance on Juicero was anything more than "Make it squish these bags, read our juice DRM, and set up a subscription service to buy more juice bags."
The answer to this is pretty complex I guess, as voting with our wallets is historically pretty ineffective at enacting change. There are a lot of tricks that can be used to make hot garbage a top seller; Amazon is raking in billions doing just this and has been for years, despite constant outrage articles and proof of the garbage-ness of the services.
At a certain point, change does need to come from within the company rather than external pressures; the market gets fooled really easily by fancy enough presentations and rich enough people talking about a failed product for 30 seconds.
I think that's why the author made the call-out; I read it as fairly tongue in cheek, but it has an element of truth that the pushback likely needs to come internally; I think the author though, and many people, realize this is not as simple of a situation as that though for the points you mentioned about executive decisions. I don't think designers should completely abandon their agency though on products; saving money is pretty persuasive to the decision makers, and probably _that_ is the best way to influence products via a wallet. Just it's the company's wallet, not the consumers.
> probably one of the most common questions our support team would ingest was "can product X do thing Y?" which was even just a quick online search away.
That's a very biased way of looking at it. Just because some customers were confused by the feature list doesn't mean most customers were. You just never hear from people who don't have questions.
> It justifies expenditures, can be correlated to growth/progress, etc. For specialized products, e.g., coffee makers, I have personal doubts that a substantial amount of buyers care much more than reading a few reviews to confirm that the product "makes good coffee" or " is easy to clean".
The claim that feature lists can correlate with growth, but also that customers are not interested in feature lists, sounds like a contradiction to me. If customers are not interested in feature lists, then there should be no correlation.
> What sells is what the company effectively SEO spams and price-points well within the market. Let's not forget Juicero's history and how well it sold until someone did the groundbreaking journalism of actually using the device and showing how ridiculous it was.
Doesn't Juicero actually show the exact opposite? Despite all the advertising and multiple price reductions, Juicero was an absolute slow seller.
> There are a lot of tricks that can be used to make hot garbage a top seller; Amazon is raking in billions doing just this and has been for years, despite constant outrage articles and proof of the garbage-ness of the services.
There are few online stores with such a wide range of products and such fast delivery as Amazon. Garbage-ness is relative when everyone else is garbage-er.
To me the "build what sells" theory sounds much more convincing than the "it's all about advertising" theory.
That's a very biased way of looking at it. Just because some customers were confused by the feature list doesn't mean most customers were. You just never hear from people who don't have questions.
> It justifies expenditures, can be correlated to growth/progress, etc. For specialized products, e.g., coffee makers, I have personal doubts that a substantial amount of buyers care much more than reading a few reviews to confirm that the product "makes good coffee" or " is easy to clean".
The claim that feature lists can correlate with growth, but also that customers are not interested in feature lists, sounds like a contradiction to me. If customers are not interested in feature lists, then there should be no correlation.
> What sells is what the company effectively SEO spams and price-points well within the market. Let's not forget Juicero's history and how well it sold until someone did the groundbreaking journalism of actually using the device and showing how ridiculous it was.
Doesn't Juicero actually show the exact opposite? Despite all the advertising and multiple price reductions, Juicero was an absolute slow seller.
> There are a lot of tricks that can be used to make hot garbage a top seller; Amazon is raking in billions doing just this and has been for years, despite constant outrage articles and proof of the garbage-ness of the services.
There are few online stores with such a wide range of products and such fast delivery as Amazon. Garbage-ness is relative when everyone else is garbage-er.
To me the "build what sells" theory sounds much more convincing than the "it's all about advertising" theory.
> The answer to this is pretty complex I guess, as voting with our wallets is historically pretty ineffective at enacting change. There are a lot of tricks that can be used to make hot garbage a top seller; Amazon is raking in billions doing just this and has been for years, despite constant outrage articles and proof of the garbage-ness of the services.
Yes, I agree, and I think this is a large part of the problem. If I get my neighbor John the blacksmith to make me a plow and it doesn't work quite right, I'm sure he'll fix it for me. That's a very short and direct economic chain, and it's based on personal relationships and geography, two things that humans do very well.
If I buy an over-featured electronic piece of crap from Alibaba, from the merchant who'll sell it for $1 less than the competition -- I don't think I can model or count the economy of that purchase.
And I think that the lack of personal relationships does more of a zap on our heads than we realize. We've not evolved to exist in a pathological environment, where a huge amount of the communication we receive is designed to manipulate us, and to our detriment. We yearn for real relationships we can trust, and over-index on signs of trust in vendors, like star ratings on Amazon. Amazon, who literally employs an army of people to game this as much as possible. It's an awfully asymmetric relationship.
Yes, I agree, and I think this is a large part of the problem. If I get my neighbor John the blacksmith to make me a plow and it doesn't work quite right, I'm sure he'll fix it for me. That's a very short and direct economic chain, and it's based on personal relationships and geography, two things that humans do very well.
If I buy an over-featured electronic piece of crap from Alibaba, from the merchant who'll sell it for $1 less than the competition -- I don't think I can model or count the economy of that purchase.
And I think that the lack of personal relationships does more of a zap on our heads than we realize. We've not evolved to exist in a pathological environment, where a huge amount of the communication we receive is designed to manipulate us, and to our detriment. We yearn for real relationships we can trust, and over-index on signs of trust in vendors, like star ratings on Amazon. Amazon, who literally employs an army of people to game this as much as possible. It's an awfully asymmetric relationship.
Keurig coffee machines are garbage. They are expensive and make terrible coffee and they are designed to do one thing only: to lock you into the pods which are very high markup and have negative externalities because they go straight to landfill etc.
If you want a coffee machine and don't want to spend a lot, I implore you buy something made for making great coffee like an Aeropress[1]. You can also do worse than say a chemex[2] or a French press/cafetiere[3]. Then when you can afford it buy a nice grinder[4]. Aeropress in particular is really cheap to buy, really easy to make coffee and clean afterwards and makes fantastic coffee.
[1] https://aeropress.com/
[2] or other drip maker but chemex is a classic. https://www.chemexcoffeemaker.com/
[3] I don't know what brand mine is because it was a gift but it's weirdly blue with white spots. Basically everyone in France is issued a Bodum by (I think) the government or something to the extent that they don't call them a cafetiere even though that's the French word, they call them a Bodum. https://www.bodum.com
[4] Mine is a mahlkoenig which is expensive but it was a gift from my wife (similar to when Homer buys Marge a bowling ball with his name on it) so I would make her nice coffee https://www.mahlkoenig.com/
If you want a coffee machine and don't want to spend a lot, I implore you buy something made for making great coffee like an Aeropress[1]. You can also do worse than say a chemex[2] or a French press/cafetiere[3]. Then when you can afford it buy a nice grinder[4]. Aeropress in particular is really cheap to buy, really easy to make coffee and clean afterwards and makes fantastic coffee.
[1] https://aeropress.com/
[2] or other drip maker but chemex is a classic. https://www.chemexcoffeemaker.com/
[3] I don't know what brand mine is because it was a gift but it's weirdly blue with white spots. Basically everyone in France is issued a Bodum by (I think) the government or something to the extent that they don't call them a cafetiere even though that's the French word, they call them a Bodum. https://www.bodum.com
[4] Mine is a mahlkoenig which is expensive but it was a gift from my wife (similar to when Homer buys Marge a bowling ball with his name on it) so I would make her nice coffee https://www.mahlkoenig.com/
Keurig are...coffee machines for places that want to serve coffee without going through the trouble of making that coffee. Waiting rooms - just go and make yourself a cup. Cheapo office kitchen machine.
It does make pretty bad coffee, but hey, it's better than not having coffee an all...sometimes. Buying it for home is another story.
Aeropress is a great travel coffee maker. Still need to clean it, grind beans, but managable.
Chemex... Have to buy filters (aeropress you can buy reusable metal filter that is better than paper ones), takes a while to make. We actually had an issue with new company management because of how much time people spent making coffee with chemex (fuck em, but still)
Frenchpress are great. A bit annoying to clean, but nice coffee.
All of them require you to grind your own coffee. That means easier cheap manual grinder or somewhat expensive electronic grinder (because cheap electronic grinders are trash).
None of them work well in places that any pod-based coffee maker works well: self-serving waiting rooms.
It does make pretty bad coffee, but hey, it's better than not having coffee an all...sometimes. Buying it for home is another story.
Aeropress is a great travel coffee maker. Still need to clean it, grind beans, but managable.
Chemex... Have to buy filters (aeropress you can buy reusable metal filter that is better than paper ones), takes a while to make. We actually had an issue with new company management because of how much time people spent making coffee with chemex (fuck em, but still)
Frenchpress are great. A bit annoying to clean, but nice coffee.
All of them require you to grind your own coffee. That means easier cheap manual grinder or somewhat expensive electronic grinder (because cheap electronic grinders are trash).
None of them work well in places that any pod-based coffee maker works well: self-serving waiting rooms.
> All of them require you to grind your own coffee.
I'm not sure if this is one of those weird only-in-America things, but in every European country I've ever visited, you can buy pre-ground coffee in supermarkets, and specialty coffee suppliers will grind the beans for you at the point of purchase. Sure, it might not taste quite as good as if you grind the beans yourself every time, but I wouldn't say all the methods above require you to grind your own coffee.
I'm not sure if this is one of those weird only-in-America things, but in every European country I've ever visited, you can buy pre-ground coffee in supermarkets, and specialty coffee suppliers will grind the beans for you at the point of purchase. Sure, it might not taste quite as good as if you grind the beans yourself every time, but I wouldn't say all the methods above require you to grind your own coffee.
For a high-quality brew, you absolutely want to buy whole beans and grind them immediately before use. However, you definitely can buy pre-ground beans in the states or grind them in-store if the market offers a grinder. Though, I think the point of the response above is more to demonstrate that either option is impractical in waiting rooms since you either have to ask a guest to grind their own beans or serve them grounds that have likely gone stale from lack of use. Either is a subpar option.
In most grocery stores I've been to since the 90s, fancy and middle class, there was at least a few whole bean bags or some bulk beans in a dispenser for sale, with an adjustable grinder there. Heck, one time I opened a bag before paying for it and ground it with their grinder, then had them scan the empty bag.
IIRC ground coffee is still "fresh" even by snob standards for a day or three before it goes stale.
IIRC ground coffee is still "fresh" even by snob standards for a day or three before it goes stale.
Pre-ground coffee is stale coffee unless it's stored airtight. I would take Nespresso pod over pre-ground supermarket coffee roasted 6 months ago.
You can buy pre-ground coffee and grind it in-store in many supermarkets in America, it's just if you like coffee - you don't buy your beans at the supermarket.
You can buy pre-ground coffee and grind it in-store in many supermarkets in America, it's just if you like coffee - you don't buy your beans at the supermarket.
I've used my SnowPeak titanium French press for years. It fixes the weak point of 99% of French presses -- the glass carafe that inevitably breaks when you're most vulnerable. (before you've had coffee!) It also makes great coffee every time. And you can take it camping with you!
https://www.snowpeak.com/collections/coffee-tea/products/tit...
And this is the upgrade pick. Expensive until you consider how much you save by making coffee at home.
https://www.espro.com/collections/french-press/products/coff...
https://www.snowpeak.com/collections/coffee-tea/products/tit...
And this is the upgrade pick. Expensive until you consider how much you save by making coffee at home.
https://www.espro.com/collections/french-press/products/coff...
I stuck with the Bodum brand mentioned above. This stainless, huge-ass, french press has served me well for about a decade now after I broke my second glass model. https://www.bodum.com/us/en/1312-16-bodum-columbia
Honestly unsure why anyone would go for a french press when AeroPress exists, it seems to me to be strictly superior. And of course you can take it camping, too.
Bulk brewing, less sensitive to grind size.
Is the double filter of that espro worth it?
Yes for me. Way fewer grounds in my coffee.
There's a far better Keurig alternative with ZERO cleanup. Not easy cleanup, ZERO.
(Edit: To clarify - zero extra, relative to a Keurig.)
They are called "hanging ear coffee filters" - it's just a disposable paper filter with two arms on it. You can get a box of 100 for about 10 cents each.
Filter attaches to your mug, coffee goes in filter, pour boiling water into the top. The process is almost exactly what a Keurig would do. Makes a single-serve coffee in your mug with no cleanup.
It's cheaper and better and more environmental, and you can use whatever coffee you want.
They are called "hanging ear coffee filters" - it's just a disposable paper filter with two arms on it. You can get a box of 100 for about 10 cents each.
Filter attaches to your mug, coffee goes in filter, pour boiling water into the top. The process is almost exactly what a Keurig would do. Makes a single-serve coffee in your mug with no cleanup.
It's cheaper and better and more environmental, and you can use whatever coffee you want.
Normally I wouldn’t be a pedant and nitpick this but you went out of your way to be confidently incorrect about there being exact ZERO cleanup.
The only way this is true is if the filter dissolves into the coffee and you consume it.
But it’s not, there’s still a thing you have to throw away. You can mishandle that waste and accidentally spill the grounds everywhere. If you drink enough cups you have to take out the trash.
Given your familiarity with the product, I consider your statement as pretty much lying, and it’s driving me (and probably others) to distrust your more. In the best case someone is gonna try it and realize, oh, there is non-zero cleanup
The only way this is true is if the filter dissolves into the coffee and you consume it.
But it’s not, there’s still a thing you have to throw away. You can mishandle that waste and accidentally spill the grounds everywhere. If you drink enough cups you have to take out the trash.
Given your familiarity with the product, I consider your statement as pretty much lying, and it’s driving me (and probably others) to distrust your more. In the best case someone is gonna try it and realize, oh, there is non-zero cleanup
Thanks for that perspective. I wanted to emphasize the difference between this solution and the Aeropress. I went into hyperbole in doing so, and will be more careful about that in future.
Hopefully the clarifying edit resolves your concerns.
Hopefully the clarifying edit resolves your concerns.
Aeropress is really peak coffee simplicity, especially if you use metal filter. Couple simple parts, stupidly easy to disassemble, stupidly easy to clean, stupidly easy to make at least decent coffee - beans dependent of course.
I've had a lot of success with James Hoffman's method[1] for making coffee with a french press. Good coffee and with a larger french press you can make enough coffee at once for at least two people. You only need a french press and optionally a coffee grinder if you want to grind your own beans to get started.
It is a bit time consuming (10-15minutes) so it may not be great for making a quick cup before leaving the house in the morning though.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st571DYYTR8
It is a bit time consuming (10-15minutes) so it may not be great for making a quick cup before leaving the house in the morning though.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st571DYYTR8
I only drink 1-2 cups each morning, and I bargain-shop for k-cups that are 20-30 cents each.
I enjoy a nice cup of coffee, but I'll drink trash to get me going in the morning.
I enjoy a nice cup of coffee, but I'll drink trash to get me going in the morning.
I would normally judge you, but I've definitely gone a similar route - our office had a Keurig machine (as a gift from some vendor) and a supply of crappy K-cups that no one else wanted.
And all I needed was a caffeine boost before going to the gym. So all the things just aligned for me to use both the machine and the (frankly terrible) coffee it made.
Can't beat free. Even if it is terrible quality. But in the future, I would probably just go with a 150mg caffeine pill, simply because it produces less plastic waste (I hope?)
And all I needed was a caffeine boost before going to the gym. So all the things just aligned for me to use both the machine and the (frankly terrible) coffee it made.
Can't beat free. Even if it is terrible quality. But in the future, I would probably just go with a 150mg caffeine pill, simply because it produces less plastic waste (I hope?)
You can buy chocolate-covered espresso beans from Trader Joe's for a good bit less than a Keurig will cost.
> I enjoy a nice cup of coffee, but I'll drink trash to get me going in the morning.
Same. While I do enjoy the occasional good cup of coffee, I just need some black liquid with caffeine in my usual mornings. Full stop.
Same. While I do enjoy the occasional good cup of coffee, I just need some black liquid with caffeine in my usual mornings. Full stop.
I think the popularity of the Keurig's(and clones) have a lot to do with the legends about how difficult pour over coffee is along with the fact that American's don't really have electric kettle's nor coffee grinders.
So for the cost of one overpriced toy the Keurigs lets you play at being an coffee snob without really having to learn anything about coffee or how to use an grinder or buy an electric kettle and that speaks to a lot of people.
And we should not forget that if your only experience with manual coffee makers and grinders is watching some internet coffee snob use massively overprized equipment and obsess over every little detail the process of making coffee the old fashined way might seem overwhelming.
So for the cost of one overpriced toy the Keurigs lets you play at being an coffee snob without really having to learn anything about coffee or how to use an grinder or buy an electric kettle and that speaks to a lot of people.
And we should not forget that if your only experience with manual coffee makers and grinders is watching some internet coffee snob use massively overprized equipment and obsess over every little detail the process of making coffee the old fashined way might seem overwhelming.
Keurig is really terrible, like the fast-food version of coffee. But I don't really like electric kettles. Sure, they let you control the temperature a bit better, but you can do it with traditional kettle over a gas stove if you add a thermometer (or have a thermometer built in to the kettle). I know most people probably prefer just pressing a button to waiting for the water to reach the right temperature, though.
Pre-ground coffee in an AeroPress is infinitely better than Keurig.
I've been using the cheapest Keurig machine for I think four years now without issue. Roughly five cups a week go through that thing, and it never fails to work. I use unlicensed biodegradable k-cups.
I initially bought it as backup for my Aeropress, but eventually switched to using it full time and keeping the Aeropress as backup instead. I use a French press while camping.
They don't seem to sell the model I have anymore, so perhaps all the models available today are garbage, but the one I have is notably not.
I initially bought it as backup for my Aeropress, but eventually switched to using it full time and keeping the Aeropress as backup instead. I use a French press while camping.
They don't seem to sell the model I have anymore, so perhaps all the models available today are garbage, but the one I have is notably not.
Can I recommend some of the ninja machines? I have the dual brew one which supports kcups but the machine itself doesn’t give a hoot if you use branded kcups or reusable cups. And it can brew regular coffee as well.
The one thing I like about kcups is how stupid simple the whole thing is while I’m in the middle of something like work. So this machine lets me be a caffeinated monkey during work things and I can also brew regular coffee when I’m okay with a slight distraction.
It’s been working a whole lot better than the cheap-o keurig I initially bought which comes with a tiny water reservoir enough for one cup of coffee only. Most stupid thing I’ve ever seen. Why am I going for convenience but I also have to refill the water reservoir every time I want coffee?!
The one thing I like about kcups is how stupid simple the whole thing is while I’m in the middle of something like work. So this machine lets me be a caffeinated monkey during work things and I can also brew regular coffee when I’m okay with a slight distraction.
It’s been working a whole lot better than the cheap-o keurig I initially bought which comes with a tiny water reservoir enough for one cup of coffee only. Most stupid thing I’ve ever seen. Why am I going for convenience but I also have to refill the water reservoir every time I want coffee?!
I am personally not in the market for anything, because what I have works.
I like the idea of adding water every time I want to make a cup of coffee. It’s what I do with my French press or aeropress after all. I have the possibly-mistaken impression that machines with larger reservoirs need to be cleaned more often, to avoid bacteria in the reservoir.
I like the idea of adding water every time I want to make a cup of coffee. It’s what I do with my French press or aeropress after all. I have the possibly-mistaken impression that machines with larger reservoirs need to be cleaned more often, to avoid bacteria in the reservoir.
"But drip is for people who hate themselves and know their lives have no real purpose or meaning." -- Wednesday Addams
I don't get the drip hate. It makes perfectly good coffee. The main step functions in coffee quality for me were 1) A burr grinder and 2) get fresh roasted light to medium roast beans
Everything else had negligible benefit for me. I tried the French press and Aeropress thing a while but it's way too labor intensive for how much I drink (one "10" cup drip pot per day).
Everything else had negligible benefit for me. I tried the French press and Aeropress thing a while but it's way too labor intensive for how much I drink (one "10" cup drip pot per day).
It works well in the context of that quote: the Wednesday character is smart and competent, but not nearly as much as she thinks. There's nothing wrong with drip coffee but some people think it does because they skimped on the two things you mentioned or are getting diner coffee which has been on the burner for a couple of hours. At least in this case, that mistaken attribution doesn't have a body count.
Good drip is stupidly close to pour over in function anyway.
There are things you can do to improve it massively, even with a $20 brand-less drip machine from walmart: 1) Make sure your coffee maker is free of old, dry, rancid coffee or coffee oils, and not clogged with scale 2) Use really good water. 3) Grind your own coffee 4) Buy coffee you enjoy, which might be a national, name brand, cheap bag of beans, but there's significant flavor and style differences in these different brands! Try several different ones. Some lean acidic, some lean earthy and bitter, find your personal preference
Now we get to the "over fussy" stuff depending on how lucky you are 4) Use a concical bur grinder instead of a blade grinder for more consistent grind and extraction 5) Play with your coffee to water ratio. Everyone has different preferences here 6) Rinse the paper filter for your machine before use, or replace with a reusable mesh of some sort if you like your coffee more "sludgy" like cold brew or french press 7) "Pre heat" the water. Lots of drip machines don't heat the water very well in the beginning. My machine has a feature where if I keep the top open, the water recycles back into the tank so I can let it run and heat itself up. Alternatively heat up your water before brewing. 8) Let the grounds degass: remove the carafe or otherwise block the basket output, let hot water drip into the grounds until they are mostly submerged, and stop water from going into the basket. Let the grounds steep in the hot water for like a minute, then continue the brew as normal. I find this helps reduce acidity personally 9) Put a pinch of salt into the pot of coffee. Salt has a bitterness blocking effect that you might enjoy 10) check the output spout of your brewer into the basket. It can help to add some sort of "diffuse" so all the water doesn't just dig itself a hole into the grounds. When you go to empty the basket, it should look like a very even bed of grounds that got even water mostly all over
Check out James Hoffman on youtube for more information.
There are things you can do to improve it massively, even with a $20 brand-less drip machine from walmart: 1) Make sure your coffee maker is free of old, dry, rancid coffee or coffee oils, and not clogged with scale 2) Use really good water. 3) Grind your own coffee 4) Buy coffee you enjoy, which might be a national, name brand, cheap bag of beans, but there's significant flavor and style differences in these different brands! Try several different ones. Some lean acidic, some lean earthy and bitter, find your personal preference
Now we get to the "over fussy" stuff depending on how lucky you are 4) Use a concical bur grinder instead of a blade grinder for more consistent grind and extraction 5) Play with your coffee to water ratio. Everyone has different preferences here 6) Rinse the paper filter for your machine before use, or replace with a reusable mesh of some sort if you like your coffee more "sludgy" like cold brew or french press 7) "Pre heat" the water. Lots of drip machines don't heat the water very well in the beginning. My machine has a feature where if I keep the top open, the water recycles back into the tank so I can let it run and heat itself up. Alternatively heat up your water before brewing. 8) Let the grounds degass: remove the carafe or otherwise block the basket output, let hot water drip into the grounds until they are mostly submerged, and stop water from going into the basket. Let the grounds steep in the hot water for like a minute, then continue the brew as normal. I find this helps reduce acidity personally 9) Put a pinch of salt into the pot of coffee. Salt has a bitterness blocking effect that you might enjoy 10) check the output spout of your brewer into the basket. It can help to add some sort of "diffuse" so all the water doesn't just dig itself a hole into the grounds. When you go to empty the basket, it should look like a very even bed of grounds that got even water mostly all over
Check out James Hoffman on youtube for more information.
Agree. I was a died-in-the-wool drip-hating espresso snob until we were getting some work done on the house and our espresso machine had to go into storage. Then I was forced to learn to make nice drip coffee and aeropress and now I can make basically all the types of good coffee. It's a valuable life skill for sure.
The real crime is most people make drip coffee too weak or with bad beans (or badly-ground beans).
The real crime is most people make drip coffee too weak or with bad beans (or badly-ground beans).
Just being pedantic - it is dyed in the wool, not died :)
I'd add that an insulated carafe is a big improvement over glass on a hot plate.
Yes, instant is the choice of the patrician.
aeropress is just a low tech device built to sell filters. A regular french press doesn't need to buy disposable filters so is better.
Yeah, I'm sure Aeropress is making bank selling you $15 worth of filters once or twice a year[0]. Or you could spend that same $15 on Aeropress' stainless mesh filter[1], and they'll never see another dime from you again.
Downside to metal mesh filter: it doesn't pull out all of the oily residue that a paper filter would. It doesn't bother us, but you might be more picky.
[0] https://aeropress.com/products/micro-filters
[1] https://aeropress.com/products/aeropress-stainless-steel-reu...
Downside to metal mesh filter: it doesn't pull out all of the oily residue that a paper filter would. It doesn't bother us, but you might be more picky.
[0] https://aeropress.com/products/micro-filters
[1] https://aeropress.com/products/aeropress-stainless-steel-reu...
I used a metal filter with my Aeropress for six years. It's fine. The paper filters are an option, not a requirement.
Yeah me too. I literally haven't even used the filters that came with the aeropress when I got it and I use mine every day.
I rinse and re-use the aeropress filters. If I'm somewhat careful handling them I get 10 uses or more per filter.
Maybe! But the filters are currently under €0.02 per unit on Amazon in a pack of 700 and it makes incredible coffee when paired with pretty much any (non spinny-blade) grinder, and pretty decent coffee when paired with preground. And the inventor says he washes the filters off and uses them two or three times each.
Aeropress and French Press make fundamentally different coffees. The paper filter in the Aeropress changes the taste and "feel" of the coffee in ways that many people prefer. Additionally, the pressure created during the "pressing" process changes the extraction a bit (nowhere near as much as espresso type pressures, but more than nothing).
The main issue with French press is that it's unfiltered and filtered coffee is considered healthier.
$4.99 for enough filters from Target to last me a year (350). Quite the money making scheme they have!
Except you can't produce a clean cup of coffee with a french press.
True, a french press tends to leave sediment at the bottom of your mug. Easily solved by leaving the last tiny sip behind.
Simplicity isn't a measure of quality. I have a "pro" $800 espresso machine with lots of fancy functions that is used many times a day and has been working perfectly with near zero maintenance for >10 years now. I can guarantee that the author's simple $12 drip coffee maker from Amazon is going to the landfill well before that.
The problem really is that brands like Keurig are packaging these same $12 machines for $100-150, and add useless half-baked features to justify the price. Same can be said for plenty of other companies that built a reputation for quality 20+ years ago and are now trading that for a quick buck by cutting costs and sacrificing product quality. It's ultimately up to the consumer to be diligent and do their research before buying. Plenty of companies are making solid coffee machines today – Breville, Bonavita, Baratza, Gaggia, La Marzocco, Ninja, Bialetti, OXO.
The problem really is that brands like Keurig are packaging these same $12 machines for $100-150, and add useless half-baked features to justify the price. Same can be said for plenty of other companies that built a reputation for quality 20+ years ago and are now trading that for a quick buck by cutting costs and sacrificing product quality. It's ultimately up to the consumer to be diligent and do their research before buying. Plenty of companies are making solid coffee machines today – Breville, Bonavita, Baratza, Gaggia, La Marzocco, Ninja, Bialetti, OXO.
> I can guarantee that the author's simple $12 drip coffee maker from Amazon is going to the landfill well before that.
I'm nearing a decade into my $15 Mr. Coffee and the little guy is still trucking along just fine.
Simplicity isn't a measure of quality, but the more complex a thing is, the greater the number of parts that can fail, so it's easier to make a robust simple thing than a robust complex thing.
I'm nearing a decade into my $15 Mr. Coffee and the little guy is still trucking along just fine.
Simplicity isn't a measure of quality, but the more complex a thing is, the greater the number of parts that can fail, so it's easier to make a robust simple thing than a robust complex thing.
Throwing my hat in for the cheap Mr. Coffee
It's probably my highest consumption of plastics per day based on it's "boil water in a cheap plastic container" design but it turns out if you buy simple things and use them simply they do tend to work for quite a while. I love my Roborock but I'm not going to freak out when it bites the dust in a couple years +/-
It's probably my highest consumption of plastics per day based on it's "boil water in a cheap plastic container" design but it turns out if you buy simple things and use them simply they do tend to work for quite a while. I love my Roborock but I'm not going to freak out when it bites the dust in a couple years +/-
"I have a "pro" $800 espresso machine "
Sorry, but just had to chuckle to myself a little...
Sorry, but just had to chuckle to myself a little...
In written US English (especially online) the double quotes around "pro" imply sarcasm or that the word is not meant to be taken literally. In context it means the author knows it isn't actually a professional machine despite the manufacturer marketing it as such.
Not sure if you're laughing at how cheap or expensive it is. Your local independent coffee shop might be sporting a five figure espresso machine. Equipment gets expensive when it needs to run >8 hours straight
$800 is far from "pro". It's not "cheap", but it also not expensive. That's just about entry level if we're taking decent machines that will last.
Pro would probably start at 5k (Ascaso Baby T Plus). Commercial, that's 10k (La Marzocco Linea 2 Group EE ). Buf if we are talking about actually coffee shop, that's 20k at least.
Pro would probably start at 5k (Ascaso Baby T Plus). Commercial, that's 10k (La Marzocco Linea 2 Group EE ). Buf if we are talking about actually coffee shop, that's 20k at least.
"Pro" here would be "prosumer", rather than "professional".
Apple changed the meaning of “pro” to mean “slightly higher than basic spec”
Cheap...
The quotes around 'pro' were as written though right, I read OP as saying 'this thing was sold to the home user as 'pro', it's expensive for the market'. I don't think someone quoting their own 'pro' is under any disillusions about how much it's used in a commercial setting...
I have a Rancilio Silvia that was I think £400 (so, uh, about $400..) and it's a good thing I don't run an espresso bar. The queue out of the door would only ever shrink by people giving up and leaving.
For me, it's great, but a machine that needs to make however many shots an hour all day, and peak at say 10x that, is just in a different class. Not even necessarily 'better', it just has different/extra problems to solve which would be engineering gone to waste at home; tank capacity never used, reliability never called upon.
I have a Rancilio Silvia that was I think £400 (so, uh, about $400..) and it's a good thing I don't run an espresso bar. The queue out of the door would only ever shrink by people giving up and leaving.
For me, it's great, but a machine that needs to make however many shots an hour all day, and peak at say 10x that, is just in a different class. Not even necessarily 'better', it just has different/extra problems to solve which would be engineering gone to waste at home; tank capacity never used, reliability never called upon.
Absolutely this, but I cannot blame the OP, as you can tell this is another US biased coffee making & consuming experience. The best these people may have tried, and failed to ever reach and enjoy the true quality, having - indeed - some complexity behind it, is in visiting Starbucks.
On the other hand - if you visit a serious place in Europe (recommend Italy, or France), for example, try a true expresso, made with a true machine, with proper grains ground to the proper size and all other necessary conditions (water, temperature, etc.), then you'd ask yourself how you could have ever considered coffee anything else than a worthy experience, like the French cuisine. Then you save and invest into a proper machine and grinder, and forget the Mr. Coffee monstrosity having ever inflicted your senses.
Even without the investment in a high end machine, an expresso setup in the price ranges above, with Yirgacheffe grains freshly ground, brings the joy of a coffee to a "place" that a morning with such gives the rest of the day another level of "joie de vivre"
Same with "complex" software ...
On the other hand - if you visit a serious place in Europe (recommend Italy, or France), for example, try a true expresso, made with a true machine, with proper grains ground to the proper size and all other necessary conditions (water, temperature, etc.), then you'd ask yourself how you could have ever considered coffee anything else than a worthy experience, like the French cuisine. Then you save and invest into a proper machine and grinder, and forget the Mr. Coffee monstrosity having ever inflicted your senses.
Even without the investment in a high end machine, an expresso setup in the price ranges above, with Yirgacheffe grains freshly ground, brings the joy of a coffee to a "place" that a morning with such gives the rest of the day another level of "joie de vivre"
Same with "complex" software ...
> The best these people may have tried, and failed to ever reach and enjoy the true quality, having - indeed - some complexity behind it, is in visiting Starbucks.
This is a tangent from OPs point, but I would push back on this idea slightly. To be clear, there is absolutely a large number of people in the US who use coffee as a tool more than an experience and treat it as such. A frightening majority will shell out a few bucks on the daily for coffee from gas stations or chain restaurants, all of which will serve you the sort of over sweetened, watered-down coffee experience you'd expect in the US.
However, I'm of the belief that there are undercurrents of a strong coffee culture in the states as long as you're willing to look for it. I recently took a trip along the east coast and, while searching for souvenirs, found a bag of locally roasted beans that I decided to take home. They weren't necessarily my favorite roast that I've tried, but the fact of the matter was that I was able to taste a local cultural staple and identify what made it unique for relatively low effort. Likewise, there are a growing number of locally owned and run coffee shops popping up across the country using machines similar to those you described above (my local favorite uses a Slayer [1]). The Starbucks-ification of coffee and inflation have unfortunately normalized $5 16oz house blends at many of these places, but the experience is still far more authentic and feels like a deliberate choice rather than a passive act.
I apologize in advance for taking a "not all Americans" stance on this, but coffee is something that I'm genuinely passionate about despite living somewhere that tries not to be. I want other people who care to share these experiences too, but many just assume that every stateside coffee shop is the same. Hopefully this will help illuminate some other options.
[1] https://slayerespresso.com/
This is a tangent from OPs point, but I would push back on this idea slightly. To be clear, there is absolutely a large number of people in the US who use coffee as a tool more than an experience and treat it as such. A frightening majority will shell out a few bucks on the daily for coffee from gas stations or chain restaurants, all of which will serve you the sort of over sweetened, watered-down coffee experience you'd expect in the US.
However, I'm of the belief that there are undercurrents of a strong coffee culture in the states as long as you're willing to look for it. I recently took a trip along the east coast and, while searching for souvenirs, found a bag of locally roasted beans that I decided to take home. They weren't necessarily my favorite roast that I've tried, but the fact of the matter was that I was able to taste a local cultural staple and identify what made it unique for relatively low effort. Likewise, there are a growing number of locally owned and run coffee shops popping up across the country using machines similar to those you described above (my local favorite uses a Slayer [1]). The Starbucks-ification of coffee and inflation have unfortunately normalized $5 16oz house blends at many of these places, but the experience is still far more authentic and feels like a deliberate choice rather than a passive act.
I apologize in advance for taking a "not all Americans" stance on this, but coffee is something that I'm genuinely passionate about despite living somewhere that tries not to be. I want other people who care to share these experiences too, but many just assume that every stateside coffee shop is the same. Hopefully this will help illuminate some other options.
[1] https://slayerespresso.com/
US biased coffee making & consuming experience.
Just about every US city I've been to is overflowing with 'serious' coffer places making 'true' espresso which can easily hold their own against every place I've been to in France and Italy.
Just about every US city I've been to is overflowing with 'serious' coffer places making 'true' espresso which can easily hold their own against every place I've been to in France and Italy.
unfortunately espresso lasts all of 30 seconds and while it tastes great, i make coffee while working to last longer and "keep me company" for some amount of time - espresso simply doesn't do that
While I have no doubt your machine can make much better coffee than a $12 plastic gizmo, the gizmo will probably outlast it. There's just less of it to fail.
Durability and excellence can often be orthogonal.
(Fellow coffe enthusiast and mechanical/product engineer here)
Durability and excellence can often be orthogonal.
(Fellow coffe enthusiast and mechanical/product engineer here)
Nah. There is basically nothing that can fail in my $800 lever espresso machine. If the boiler cracks or something insane I'll just solder it with $8 silver solder from home Depot. It's already 30 years old.
I used to have one of those (notably probably cheaper than yours) but the cleaning/maintenance was cumbersome and I never got around to spending the 2h/mo it would require.
> I can guarantee that the author's simple $12 drip coffee maker from Amazon is going to the landfill well before that.
What makes you think you know this?
What makes you think you know this?
To start, the kind of plastic likely used in a machine at that price point will start to degrade well before 10-15 years of use. The plug/adapter/circuit board won't have adequate protection against voltage fluctuations or surges. The heating element they use will be rated for fewer cycles than their pricier counterparts. "You get what you pay for" applies for any product, especially a reasonably complex electronic one.
Aeropress ftw. There is a somewhat intricate mostly sequential workflow (inverted method):
Get it all right and it's probably the most satisfying non-espresso cup.
- fill and start kettle
- measure and grind beans
- clear and rinse coffee maker
- assemble coffee maker and invert
- collect grounds, funnel into coffee maker
- remove funnel, replace as stand for coffee maker
- check water temperature, heat or cool as necessary
- pour water into top of coffee maker, 2/3 full
- stir for 10 seconds
- allow to rest
- pour hot water into cup to warm it
- insert filter into holder and rinse it
- add remaining water to fill coffee maker
- attach filter cap
- dump water from cup
- invert coffee maker over cup
- press slowly to fill cup
Get it all right and it's probably the most satisfying non-espresso cup.
I always felt the inverted method was invented just for the sake of being difficult.
So did I until I used it for a while. Going back the other way a couple of things bothered me. First, it’s dripping a bit while you give it a chance to brew. But also, inverted it’s clearer how much hot water to add, right up to the top, whereas right-side-up, you’re pushing the plunger into the cylinder filled with hot water, which conflicts with wanting to get a maximum cup from an already minimum process. Somehow inverted is just feels overall more consistent and precise.
Also, I lost my t-handled stirrer and when inverted you can’t accidentally lift the filter with a spoon. By complete coincidence, I found that dang stirrer yesterday so I may give right-side-up another go.
Also, I like imagining the coffee maker is the Rocinante doing a flip ‘n’ burn ;)
Also, I lost my t-handled stirrer and when inverted you can’t accidentally lift the filter with a spoon. By complete coincidence, I found that dang stirrer yesterday so I may give right-side-up another go.
Also, I like imagining the coffee maker is the Rocinante doing a flip ‘n’ burn ;)
If you want a simple drip machine that makes really good coffee, I can highly recommend a Moccamaster. It's probably the closest you're going to get to a pour over with a machine, and it has only two buttons - one to turn the machine on, and another to to adjust how long the plate stays hot.
I have a Bonavita one-touch machine that makes excellent coffee for a drip brewer - it simply has an on switch and a thermal carafe to avoid scorching your coffee with a hot plate and I've been using it daily for going on 3 years now with 0 issues.
Iirc it was one of the top recommendations from America's Test Kitchen for a while.
Iirc it was one of the top recommendations from America's Test Kitchen for a while.
Agreed! I just bought one. Super happy.
On the slim chance that someone else here from South Africa wants one, I bought mine from here: https://capecoffeebeans.co.za/products/technivorm-moccamaste...
(I am not affiliated)
On the slim chance that someone else here from South Africa wants one, I bought mine from here: https://capecoffeebeans.co.za/products/technivorm-moccamaste...
(I am not affiliated)
I came here to recommend the same! Mine's the thermal carafe version (so it doesn't have a hot plate) - so it's even more straightforward. Some selling points you didn't mention though:
- It has a 5 year warranty
- It's handmade in the Netherlands
- Replacement parts are available without too much effort
- It has a 5 year warranty
- It's handmade in the Netherlands
- Replacement parts are available without too much effort
> What an interesting idea to combine both a standard 12-cup percolator with the "pod-based" single serve option.
Oh, no, it's the coffee equivalent of the combo DVD-VCR.
Oh, no, it's the coffee equivalent of the combo DVD-VCR.
I have a vague memory of some of the high-end ones being capable of recording DVDs and so you could use them to digitize your tapes. So those were not cobmo just for the sake of it.
There were also briefly D-VHSs and VCRs, so actually you don't even technically need DVDs to digitise your tapes...
...though if your D-VCR broke you would probably have had a harder time saving the D-VHS material than if it was still on VHS!
...though if your D-VCR broke you would probably have had a harder time saving the D-VHS material than if it was still on VHS!
Some of them also allowed you to record live television, and some of THOSE supported DVD-RAM for essentially cheap DVR functionality.
Which was a very handy device during the transitional period from VCR to DVD.
My wife and I got a Keurig and found metal coffee capsules that let us brew the coffee we liked in it, for a price we liked.
This worked great until it stopped working. We got a replacement.
We learned the hard way that Keurig has upgraded their "security" so those third party replacements no longer worked.
We've thrown out the Keurig and gone back to using a purely mechanical French Press. I happen to like https://www.amazon.com/Half-Dozen-Coffee-Du-Monde/dp/B000FV5.... And I don't need a fancy coffee maker with an electronic nanny built in telling me I can't have it because nobody paid a premium for the approved packaging.
This worked great until it stopped working. We got a replacement.
We learned the hard way that Keurig has upgraded their "security" so those third party replacements no longer worked.
We've thrown out the Keurig and gone back to using a purely mechanical French Press. I happen to like https://www.amazon.com/Half-Dozen-Coffee-Du-Monde/dp/B000FV5.... And I don't need a fancy coffee maker with an electronic nanny built in telling me I can't have it because nobody paid a premium for the approved packaging.
I’ll do you one better: an electric kettle and a French press. Kettle does one thing: boils water. French press has no moving parts and is interchangeable with water and coffee from any source. Lasts forever or until you knock it off the counter. Makes good coffee.
How do you prep your coffee? And a french press is a pain to clean.
Immersion brewing (french press) is really forgiving. Just don't grind the coffee too fine and you're pretty much good.
I cleaned my french press by knocking out the grounds into the trash, quick rinse with water, then more water with a bit of dish soap and pump the plunger a bunch to froth the soap and clean the screen. Pour out, rinse until soap is gone, air dry. Every couple of weeks I'd do a deep clean by soaking the various parts in Cafiza and hot water. Not that bad imo.
I cleaned my french press by knocking out the grounds into the trash, quick rinse with water, then more water with a bit of dish soap and pump the plunger a bunch to froth the soap and clean the screen. Pour out, rinse until soap is gone, air dry. Every couple of weeks I'd do a deep clean by soaking the various parts in Cafiza and hot water. Not that bad imo.
I grind it in a basic cheap grinder. Studies in this stuff have shown that consistency in grind matters more than the amount of money spent on the grinder. I’m not sure what you mean by French presses being a pain to clean - you rinse out the pot, run the filter under hot water and you are good to go. Worried about coffee sludge build up on the filter? I guess you could soak it in some kind of cleaning product. I find the coffee residue comes right off with hot water.
> Studies in this stuff have shown that consistency in grind matters more than the amount of money spent on the grinder.
But what's this super consistent 'basic cheap grinder' you have? The people buying expensive grinders know this too - that's why they're buying them, for their 'conical burrs' or 'ceramic' or some other promise of a great (consistent) grind.
But what's this super consistent 'basic cheap grinder' you have? The people buying expensive grinders know this too - that's why they're buying them, for their 'conical burrs' or 'ceramic' or some other promise of a great (consistent) grind.
Studies have shown (I guess I could go google - last time coffee came up on HN there was info shared too) that you can use a very simple heuristic - you give it a little shake. That is to say - expensive grinders have various ways they create a consistent grind size, and they may even have ways to create different grinds (espresso, for Turkish coffee, etc). You can approximate this successfully with a cheap grinder by doing a grind-shake-grind-shake, as the primary problem with these cheap grinders is that they don't rotate the beans through the grinder as smoothly as the expensive guys.
I am but a poor man and an amateur coffee drinker, but for my money (and again - according to the sources who blind studied this stuff...) you can get a perfectly good cup of coffee from a $10 no-name grinder. Now, whether the expensive grinder will make you more attractive to your desired mate or make your enemies jealous compared to the cheap grinder - that's a whole other conversation.
I am but a poor man and an amateur coffee drinker, but for my money (and again - according to the sources who blind studied this stuff...) you can get a perfectly good cup of coffee from a $10 no-name grinder. Now, whether the expensive grinder will make you more attractive to your desired mate or make your enemies jealous compared to the cheap grinder - that's a whole other conversation.
Ikea used to have a cheap (~$20?) hand-crank ceramic burr grinder. It was excellent for the money, but coffee snobs turned up their noses because it wasn't as good as ones costing 5x.
There just isn't a market for such things, or at least there isn't if it is only being compared to very expensive stuff. Ikea might still sell it in some markets, but definitely not in the USA.
There just isn't a market for such things, or at least there isn't if it is only being compared to very expensive stuff. Ikea might still sell it in some markets, but definitely not in the USA.
>It was excellent for the money, but coffee snobs turned up their noses because it wasn't as good as ones costing 5x.
Problem with very cheap burr grinders is that burrs aren't very well supported and can move during grinding. This causes inconsistency in grinding.
Problem with very cheap burr grinders is that burrs aren't very well supported and can move during grinding. This causes inconsistency in grinding.
Are you comparing it to a non-burr grinder of a similar price, or are you comparing it to a much more expensive burr grinder?
More expensive burr grinder. Non-burr grinders are bad regardless of price.
It will never be possible to get a consistent grind with blade grinders unfortunately.
I’ll let you in on a secret: I use my French press pretty much daily and throw it in a dishwasher every long weekend.
I suspect regular hits of mildly acidic boiling water keeps the microbes at bay better than most other sanitation methods.
I suspect regular hits of mildly acidic boiling water keeps the microbes at bay better than most other sanitation methods.
Not OP but I have a electric burr grinder. You can also ask coffee shops to grind the beans for you (mention that it is for a French press so they get the grind right). It takes me about a minute 90 seconds to clean mine, I turn it upside down to get most of the grinds in the trash and then I rinse out the rest and dry. I clean it with soap maybe once a week.
I know this is sacrilegious, but we drink so much coffee around here that I’ve kinda come to the conclusion that buying pre-ground isn’t the end of the world. I’ve always been a buy beans and grind fresh guy (and we typically buy beans from the local roaster). That said - if you buy a bag of ground and use it within a few days / one week, I’m not sure the quality is degraded to the point that it’s noticeable in terms of everyday brew - again, especially if you are going through multiple pots per day.
i do a kettle and pourover myself, but it's fundamentally a fallacy to say it's a replacement for a coffee maker, because you have to actively wait for stages to complete and manually move things to the next stage, rather than load everything, press start, and then forget about it until you have coffee ready.
> Lasts forever or until you knock it off the counter.
Mine is stainless steel. I think it might have glass inside the walls, but that would only affect the insulation properties and the noise ;)
Mine is stainless steel. I think it might have glass inside the walls, but that would only affect the insulation properties and the noise ;)
This is true - I own three or four and at least one is stainless steel as well. The Bodum is the best all-around of mine, but the $9 ikea has been pretty good for many years up until the plastic push knob started to break. The stainless steel is a Starbucks, which in some ways I don’t like because I can’t see the color of the coffee as it is brewing and the knob is wooden - pretty, but not wise for a product that gets wet.
My SS one is from Bodum and sadly not sold anymore, IMO it’s by far the best looking SS one: [0]. I’ve had it for over 10 years by now, and it’s seeing use every day as it’s also my only one ;)
[0]: https://i.imgur.com/rlZwdww.png
[0]: https://i.imgur.com/rlZwdww.png
> $9 ikea has been pretty good for many years up until the plastic push knob started to break
I had this happen to me... Sugru ball works great as a replacement knob.
I had this happen to me... Sugru ball works great as a replacement knob.
After running the gamut of bullshit fancy coffee makers, this is where I've landed as well. Dead simple, easy to clean, and fast.
Also Moka pot or Aeropress. Not sure what is low-tech alternative for espresso.
> Not sure what is low-tech alternative for espresso.
There are manual espresso machines like the Flair or the Cafelat Robot. But for many people, the moka pot is a no-fuss, close-enough alternative.
There are manual espresso machines like the Flair or the Cafelat Robot. But for many people, the moka pot is a no-fuss, close-enough alternative.
I'm more of a cappuccino fan, and I have two coffee makers
1: A Nespresso that uses the classic pods
2: A Breville Barista Express
I highly recommend the Breville if you can find it used or on discount. We got ours from a man who got extremely into espresso and upgraded 6 months later to a very high end machine. I've had it for 2 years and it's very nice. I use it to make cappuccinos, espressos, or just regular coffee with milk by adding hot water to espresso shots (Americano).
The Nespresso is the quick solution if you just want espresso or cappuccino fast. The pods are ubiquitous, and you can usually find them for cheap. I definitely do not recommend the Nespresso Vertuo machines since the pods are very expensive and hard to find. Vertuo machines make coffee sized drinks, but in reality it's just a massive amount of pure espresso and not traditional American coffee like Keurig does. If you're leaning towards coffee, then just do old school pour over with a filter. You'll get better quality coffee, more options in what flavors you like, and it's generally faster. Just make sure you have a fast kettle or hot water machine.
1: A Nespresso that uses the classic pods
2: A Breville Barista Express
I highly recommend the Breville if you can find it used or on discount. We got ours from a man who got extremely into espresso and upgraded 6 months later to a very high end machine. I've had it for 2 years and it's very nice. I use it to make cappuccinos, espressos, or just regular coffee with milk by adding hot water to espresso shots (Americano).
The Nespresso is the quick solution if you just want espresso or cappuccino fast. The pods are ubiquitous, and you can usually find them for cheap. I definitely do not recommend the Nespresso Vertuo machines since the pods are very expensive and hard to find. Vertuo machines make coffee sized drinks, but in reality it's just a massive amount of pure espresso and not traditional American coffee like Keurig does. If you're leaning towards coffee, then just do old school pour over with a filter. You'll get better quality coffee, more options in what flavors you like, and it's generally faster. Just make sure you have a fast kettle or hot water machine.
I'm a Vertuo fan and it got me out of going to the coffeeshop almost every day in a way my Chemex doesn't (so it ended up being net savings despite the relatively higher pod cost). Being around multiple Nspresso stores helps. There's enough variety in coffee-sized pods to be interesting and occasionally I like to try to make an actual latte. The recycling program is decent and so far I haven't generated any pod generated waste. Agreed it's not right for everybody though.
To me Nespresso tastes like actual espresso, Keurig is pretty trashy unless you get really high-end pods. Maybe that's not saying much since I've only had Nespresso branded pods that are expensive so it's an occasional luxury for me.
We have one of those Nespressos at work, they are not bad at all. Wouldn't buy one for myself, but I'll drink the free stuff.
Anyone interested in how the traditional american coffee maker works should watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9H0MO-qS8
Very fun video and I love the concept of using a piece of metal as a temperature-sensitive valve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9H0MO-qS8
Very fun video and I love the concept of using a piece of metal as a temperature-sensitive valve.
Alec calls this out in both the description and in the video itself, but be sure to check out The Engineer Guy's video on the topic as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j4Q_YBRJEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j4Q_YBRJEI
>The only advice I can give to designers is this: try not to add to the problem.
I agree with this a lot. But one difficulty in adhering to this lies in our ability to process the additional cost beyond initial implementation.
It seems easy, even to engineers and builders, to add something small. But as the author points out increased complexity leads to fragility.
It may be easier to convince product managers and designers of product minimalism when approaching from UX angle: keeping features as bare bones as possible makes it easier for people to figure out how to use the thing.
I agree with this a lot. But one difficulty in adhering to this lies in our ability to process the additional cost beyond initial implementation.
It seems easy, even to engineers and builders, to add something small. But as the author points out increased complexity leads to fragility.
It may be easier to convince product managers and designers of product minimalism when approaching from UX angle: keeping features as bare bones as possible makes it easier for people to figure out how to use the thing.
Reminded of this from an NYT article [1] about Tumblr:
The features Tumblr eliminates are as important to the way it feels as those it adopts. Bijan Sabet of Spark Capital, an early Tumblr investor who sits on its board, says that it is “normal behavior” for a founder to be excited about adding new bells and whistles, but Karp seems excited about doing the opposite: “He’ll tell us, ‘Hey, got a new version coming up — and I took four features out!’"
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/magazine/can-tumblrs-davi...
The features Tumblr eliminates are as important to the way it feels as those it adopts. Bijan Sabet of Spark Capital, an early Tumblr investor who sits on its board, says that it is “normal behavior” for a founder to be excited about adding new bells and whistles, but Karp seems excited about doing the opposite: “He’ll tell us, ‘Hey, got a new version coming up — and I took four features out!’"
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/magazine/can-tumblrs-davi...
The most simple, and best (from quality and value) is something like a v60 or hario switch (my preference) + kettle.
You can very easily get under <$50, it will last you a lifetime (longer than a drip coffee maker, I'd bet), and the quality of coffee is way better than a drip machine (and depending on your kettle, you don't need electricity).
Not quite as convenient, but great high-end kit for a low cost. Then later, if you want to upgrade, buy a good hand grinder ($100-$150).
You can very easily get under <$50, it will last you a lifetime (longer than a drip coffee maker, I'd bet), and the quality of coffee is way better than a drip machine (and depending on your kettle, you don't need electricity).
Not quite as convenient, but great high-end kit for a low cost. Then later, if you want to upgrade, buy a good hand grinder ($100-$150).
I make multiple cups of day with my Aeropress and a kettle. I am looking to upgrade to a water heater with temperature control. I'm not really looking to replace the Aeropress. I clean it after every use and I've even invested into the ecosystem with a reusable filter and an adapter to brew cold coffee.
You're right. However as life gets busier, especially in the morning I found that I just don't have the time for the "procedure". I love the "procedure" but it's synchronous so it had to go. Also I was having a very hard time getting the size 03 filters in white.
Some years back I bought a stainless steel filter from Able Brewing. It’s great. I no longer have to buy consumables or throw anything away but wet coffee grounds — which are great for the garden anyway.
This is exactly why I would recommend a Hario Switch over a V60 or Aeropress. It makes my mornings much less complicated. However, you will still have to look for filters.
Can't get much more simple than the hario switch:
- Heat up water
- If you are anal, rinse your paper filter (very optional, do you do this for drip? no :))
- Fill hario with water (yes, water first)
- Dump in coffee
- Stir, if you want, or don't
- Wait whatever. I don't time it. Can't really go too long if your grind is course enough. Go do whatever you do when your drip is brewing.
- Hit Button to dump coffee into cup
That's it. Basically the same as a drip machine honestly, and you'll get better results :)
- Heat up water
- If you are anal, rinse your paper filter (very optional, do you do this for drip? no :))
- Fill hario with water (yes, water first)
- Dump in coffee
- Stir, if you want, or don't
- Wait whatever. I don't time it. Can't really go too long if your grind is course enough. Go do whatever you do when your drip is brewing.
- Hit Button to dump coffee into cup
That's it. Basically the same as a drip machine honestly, and you'll get better results :)
you can get much more simple - have a coffee maker that heats the water for you and then dumps it over the grounds itself. as the parent said, it's a matter of synchronous vs asynchronous.
It is one extra step, pouring water. I don't think you even read my post.
I did, you're missing my point about having to wait for the water to heat up before pouring it in.
Okay, two steps??? Come on man lol
you seem to be persistently missing my point. it's not the number of steps; even if the coffeemaker required ten steps to the pourover's two, you could do those ten steps at once, hit the switch and walk away. what makes the pourover qualitatively different is that you have to start one step (heating the water) and wait for it to finish before moving on to the next one.
I'm not, don't take it the wrong way and get upset about it.
You don't do the ten steps at once tho, you have to put water and coffee into the machine anyway.
It's like, a few more of those types of steps.
Not really worth an argument anyway...
You don't do the ten steps at once tho, you have to put water and coffee into the machine anyway.
It's like, a few more of those types of steps.
Not really worth an argument anyway...
In the past seven years, the only consumable I've bought for my moka pot is a new seal - $5 on eBay.
The pot was made in 1947. It was my father's. Before that, it was my great aunt's.
These are not statements you could make of really any product made today.
The pot was made in 1947. It was my father's. Before that, it was my great aunt's.
These are not statements you could make of really any product made today.
There are quite a few things made today you could make that statement of... french press, steel cooking utensils/pans, ceramic dishware, gas range/oven, gym weights, woodworking hand tools, leather and wool clothes, solid wood furniture, flower pots... There's still a lot of things made today that last. You just won't find them at Wal-Mart or Amazon.
I once bought a knife set at walmart with 20ish pieces for less than $20. Sure, they won't be crazy tough, and sure they probably won't hold an edge very well, but it had a huge variety of knives and with a $5 sharpener they could last a decade in service. I have a smaller collection of Henkels for day to day use but I never got rid of the cheap ones because they are fantastic when I don't have the right Henkels knife and don't want to spend $80 on one knife that I will use twice a year.
I ruined my moka pot on accident by absent mindedly putting it on my drying rack and it melting through the rack and being covered everywhere in plastic. I was afraid of the BPAs getting into my coffee.
I'm not a huge fan of moka pots.
I use a Moccamaster cup one. It is pretty consistent drip, design is simple, sturdy, easy to clean and has a 5 year warranty. Granted it does come at a more premium price.
Came here to say Moccamaster, but I have the full one. Have done most every manual prep (Chemex, French Press, Aeropress, pour-over, etc) over the years but switched to the Moccamaster a few years ago and never looked back. Someone hit the motherload of coffee prep gear at my local Goodwill a couple of years into my Moccamaster purchase.
I have the ten cup and put 67g of ground coffee into it every morning. Once fully brewed I reserve half of it into a Stanley thermos to have over the course of the day and then have my morning coffee. Always excellent and above all, consistent.
I have the ten cup and put 67g of ground coffee into it every morning. Once fully brewed I reserve half of it into a Stanley thermos to have over the course of the day and then have my morning coffee. Always excellent and above all, consistent.
The regular Moccamaster is nearly indestructible. Just remember to run through a clean cycle once in a while.
My sister bought a Bunn VP17-1 with the additional 20216.0000 stainless steel funnel basket after she had ditched her Keurig and older coffee machines. I am not a fan of terms like "military grade" but I think her machine fits that sort of concept, and it is easy to keep in an almost sterile state between uses. My only tweak would be immediately pouring the output of her machine into my Pykel stainless steel carafe. Bear in mind that the Bunn machine is ridiculously expensive for most consumers.
As a preface, I'm a massive tech lover and have tons of complicated devices in my house.
We have 3 ways to make coffee in our house. The first is a ~$7 5-cup coffee maker with no bells or whistles (like in the article) that I've used for 5+ years now. I'm fairly certain I've gotten my money's worth in that deal. I recently added a Zigbee on/off switch so I stop forgetting to turn it off. Second is a dead-simple ~$25 Kurig machine that you pour water in, pop in a pod, and punch the only button on the device to activate. It pumps out hot water and turns off. We've also had this for years with no issues. The third is a recent addition. It's a double walled glass vessel with a basket on top that holds grounds and you pour in boiling water. No electronics at all. I couple it with a simple electric kettle that's equally dead-simple (one button), but could be replaced with water boiled on the stove or a fire if need be. I fully expect these devices to last for many more years at this point.
All of the above is my anecdotal contribution to the value of a machine or device that just does the core thing it was designed for in the simplest way possible.
We have 3 ways to make coffee in our house. The first is a ~$7 5-cup coffee maker with no bells or whistles (like in the article) that I've used for 5+ years now. I'm fairly certain I've gotten my money's worth in that deal. I recently added a Zigbee on/off switch so I stop forgetting to turn it off. Second is a dead-simple ~$25 Kurig machine that you pour water in, pop in a pod, and punch the only button on the device to activate. It pumps out hot water and turns off. We've also had this for years with no issues. The third is a recent addition. It's a double walled glass vessel with a basket on top that holds grounds and you pour in boiling water. No electronics at all. I couple it with a simple electric kettle that's equally dead-simple (one button), but could be replaced with water boiled on the stove or a fire if need be. I fully expect these devices to last for many more years at this point.
All of the above is my anecdotal contribution to the value of a machine or device that just does the core thing it was designed for in the simplest way possible.
I've been using my $30 aeropress for years, and heartily agree.
Likewise, the french press and moka pot are extremely simple, easy to use and require no electricity to operate.
I haven't owned a drip machine in over a decade. Moka pots are probably my favorite quick coffee, and french press is easy. Both are easier to clean.
However last year I got a Gaggia espresso machine, and espresso is a whole other world of complexity. My Gaggia only has the pressure mod, but I did plan to add a PID to it. It's still simple, turn on and let it get hot, then I usually do long pulls for like 40-50 seconds on a double shot portafilter. But there are other espresso machines with more electronics that feel desirable.
Of course I chose getting a Gaggia by going to Github and seeing which espresso machines are developer friendly. :)
https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino
However I just make coffee for myself. Maybe a Keurig is easier if you have guests. It seems most of the people I know who have it, have it for that reason.
However last year I got a Gaggia espresso machine, and espresso is a whole other world of complexity. My Gaggia only has the pressure mod, but I did plan to add a PID to it. It's still simple, turn on and let it get hot, then I usually do long pulls for like 40-50 seconds on a double shot portafilter. But there are other espresso machines with more electronics that feel desirable.
Of course I chose getting a Gaggia by going to Github and seeing which espresso machines are developer friendly. :)
https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino
However I just make coffee for myself. Maybe a Keurig is easier if you have guests. It seems most of the people I know who have it, have it for that reason.
The beauty of machines like the Gaggia (I have a Classic) is their simplicity. I can get spare parts to replace everything in the machine, and work on it myself (I'm not mechanically-minded, but it's very straight forward). The biggest repair I've had to make is to replace a thermostat and themal-fuse, and it cost me about £10 in parts and 30 mins of work.
Fun project! And espresso is fun too. I have a la pavoni, but was interested in the Gagguinio after my bad experience with the Decent (can't really hack on it at all).
I use a Stanley full-metal-jacket french press on camping trips and for just-in-case situations like power failures. Unlike most moka pots that can eventually have seal failures, only the wire mesh of a french press plunger ever needs tweaking back into shape.
Except to boil the kettle!
... unless you have a normal stovetop kettle, and a gas cooktop. Technically no electricity required then, though it does consume fuel.
That's a good justification for buyers of outdoor grilles to purchase one with a side burner that has enough output to bring a kettle or pot of water to a boil. No electricity needed.
I have a $20 “camp stove” and cheap butane cylinders that are in aerosol cans.
If things get real bad, the Wood stick camp stove that’s just folding metal plates.
Propane burners are just an annoying in between, but our outages are rarely long.
If things get real bad, the Wood stick camp stove that’s just folding metal plates.
Propane burners are just an annoying in between, but our outages are rarely long.
A stovetop kettle would not be considered normal in the UK in the 21st century
Stovetop kettle would be considered normal maybe in a nursing home.
Not in case of moka pot.
Same here. Plus, it travels effortlessly if I’m going to be someplace with terrible coffee. You can almost always get an electric tea kettle or hot water at any hotel.
The aeropress is a great way to make coffee, my only issue with it is it doesn't make quite enough! My hario switch (large) gives me just about 2 cups of coffee so I can share a brew with someone.
The trick for a two cups aeropress is brewing at a stronger ratio (for instance 25g in with 220g of water) and diluting it with water once it's done brewing.
I do another trick that works well enough for me, I put more coffee in than I normally do for one cup, plunge, then pull the plunge out, add more water and plunge again. Just make sure you are going into a big enough cup or use two cups.
I've never had success with brewing a concentrate using an Aeropress really. I prefer using a different method like a larger french press for multiple cups.
It functions similarly (and was inspired by) as espresso, in my experience - so typically you'd add water to fill it as a full cup (e.g. an Americano). Still, with two people, you'd brew it twice.
Edit: designed as an espresso alternative -> functions similarly to espresso
Edit: designed as an espresso alternative -> functions similarly to espresso
The aeropress was really not designed as an espresso alternative. In interviews, the inventor said he was designing a better way to do drip coffee for a single cup. He recommends pressing as slowly as possible to not create pressure.
Perhaps semantically I am wrong, and can admit that, but your comment acts a bit as if it's so ridiculous to think of (and make) Aeropress coffee that way. I gladly make Americano's and lattes with it regularly.
> he was designing a better way to do drip coffee for a single cup
Can you point to this interview? In https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010..., it mentions he actually started with an espresso machine before trying drip and French press. So, it'd be more accurate to say he was designing a better way to all 3 of those - not just drip, as you claim.
Some other references to espresso --
https://www.aeropress.co.uk/blogs/news/evolution-aeropress-h...
> AeroPress is inspired by technology found in espresso machines
https://aeropress.com/pages/how-it-works
In this page, each recommended option is an offshoot from espresso-based drinks.
https://aeropress.com/pages/faq
> Many people say that espresso must be made with 9 bars of pressure. If you use this definition then no, AeroPress coffee makers do not make espresso. But if you define espresso by the taste of the drink in the cup, certainly many people think AeroPress coffee makers can brew espresso. Since coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be made into lattes, cappuccinos, and other espresso based drinks, we feel it is important to use the term "espresso" when describing what AeroPress coffee makers brew so potential customers will understand how coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be enjoyed.
--
tldr; I've amended my previous comment but to act as if espresso is not a clear design/inspiration choice is wrong.
> he was designing a better way to do drip coffee for a single cup
Can you point to this interview? In https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010..., it mentions he actually started with an espresso machine before trying drip and French press. So, it'd be more accurate to say he was designing a better way to all 3 of those - not just drip, as you claim.
Some other references to espresso --
https://www.aeropress.co.uk/blogs/news/evolution-aeropress-h...
> AeroPress is inspired by technology found in espresso machines
https://aeropress.com/pages/how-it-works
In this page, each recommended option is an offshoot from espresso-based drinks.
https://aeropress.com/pages/faq
> Many people say that espresso must be made with 9 bars of pressure. If you use this definition then no, AeroPress coffee makers do not make espresso. But if you define espresso by the taste of the drink in the cup, certainly many people think AeroPress coffee makers can brew espresso. Since coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be made into lattes, cappuccinos, and other espresso based drinks, we feel it is important to use the term "espresso" when describing what AeroPress coffee makers brew so potential customers will understand how coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be enjoyed.
--
tldr; I've amended my previous comment but to act as if espresso is not a clear design/inspiration choice is wrong.
I just don't understand why every coffee method needs to be compared to espresso. Espresso is not a gold standard to achieve, it's just one tasty way to make coffee among other.
With that in mind, the aeropress marketing material uses espresso as a gold standard and because of that it is plain nonsense to me.
> But if you define espresso by the taste of the drink in the cup, certainly many people think AeroPress coffee makers can brew espresso.
That is just fantasy.
> Since coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be made into lattes, cappuccinos, and other espresso based drinks, we feel it is important to use the term "espresso" when describing what AeroPress coffee makers brew.
Ah yes, just like since lemonade can be used instead of rum to make a Mojito I feel it is important to use the term "alcohol" when describing lemonade.
Espresso is widely understood to be a percolation brew, about 2:1 coffee to water ratio, brewed at around 9 bars, in about 30 seconds.
The aeropress is almost the exact opposite, it's an immersion brew, usually at much higher ratio, with almost no pressure and much longer brew time.
Both are awesome and none is superior to the other. It's fine to enjoy aeropress-lattes or aeropress-americanos.
With that in mind, the aeropress marketing material uses espresso as a gold standard and because of that it is plain nonsense to me.
> But if you define espresso by the taste of the drink in the cup, certainly many people think AeroPress coffee makers can brew espresso.
That is just fantasy.
> Since coffee brewed by AeroPress coffee makers can be made into lattes, cappuccinos, and other espresso based drinks, we feel it is important to use the term "espresso" when describing what AeroPress coffee makers brew.
Ah yes, just like since lemonade can be used instead of rum to make a Mojito I feel it is important to use the term "alcohol" when describing lemonade.
Espresso is widely understood to be a percolation brew, about 2:1 coffee to water ratio, brewed at around 9 bars, in about 30 seconds.
The aeropress is almost the exact opposite, it's an immersion brew, usually at much higher ratio, with almost no pressure and much longer brew time.
Both are awesome and none is superior to the other. It's fine to enjoy aeropress-lattes or aeropress-americanos.
You can also use the aeropress chamber as a zero bypass pourover - grind finer than usual and/or double up on filters to slow it down.
Aeropress coffee is fantastic and the machine lasts a very long time. Highly recommended!
> Instead, I snagged the cheapest and most basic coffee maker I could find. It cost me $12. It has no clock, no programming options, no base settings or cleaning functions. Hell, there aren't even level numbers on the water reservoir tank. You simply add your scoops of coffee grounds along with desired amount of water. Then you switch on the (only) button at the side of the machine. After a handful of minutes, you have coffee.
Until recently that's what I had too and I connected it to a Sonoff S31 (Tasmota) connected to Home Assistant which let me turn on the coffee maker with an automation and also measure when it's done brewing. One of the temp fuses blew recently and I haven't been able to get the parts I need to fix it. None of the thrift stores in the area have had a simple model like that for a while now. They're all "smart" with their timers and "brew strengths" and whatnot, very frustrating.
Until recently that's what I had too and I connected it to a Sonoff S31 (Tasmota) connected to Home Assistant which let me turn on the coffee maker with an automation and also measure when it's done brewing. One of the temp fuses blew recently and I haven't been able to get the parts I need to fix it. None of the thrift stores in the area have had a simple model like that for a while now. They're all "smart" with their timers and "brew strengths" and whatnot, very frustrating.
Try NTE Electronics for thermal fuses -- used to get these at Fry's (in the US) for $2. Today's inexpensive coffee makers usually use specialty plastic screws making disassembly difficult.
I despise Keurig and all the waste. I have a very simple coffee routine now and it works fantastically.
I buy coffee grinds (I no longer have a working grinder or I'd buy beans) - I buy several blends (decaf/light/dark) and freeze them in a ziploc.
I tend to just make it for myself in which case this simple filter coffee setup works great [1]. Alternatively a french press or pour-over style filter setup is just as convenient and may yield more coffee (if you're preparing for spouse/etc).
Taste is quite good, and the cleanup is very simple. No maintenance. Coffee tastes great and takes very little time/materials - just need a kettle or stove + kit + grinds/beans.
[1 ]https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Coffee-Filter-Indian/...
I buy coffee grinds (I no longer have a working grinder or I'd buy beans) - I buy several blends (decaf/light/dark) and freeze them in a ziploc.
I tend to just make it for myself in which case this simple filter coffee setup works great [1]. Alternatively a french press or pour-over style filter setup is just as convenient and may yield more coffee (if you're preparing for spouse/etc).
Taste is quite good, and the cleanup is very simple. No maintenance. Coffee tastes great and takes very little time/materials - just need a kettle or stove + kit + grinds/beans.
[1 ]https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Coffee-Filter-Indian/...
So far I love my Delonghi magnifica, no display or programming so it also doesn't do much and it was around $230 a few years ago. It grinds coffee beans and has sufficient water pressure and that's it. A bit loud, a bit bulky, but for the money it was a great value :)
Yes! I have few of them and they are repairable as well (for ok price). They last for many years.
We had a Nespresso for years and it was great. We felt guilty, but the pods were tactile and beautiful and the coffee was fine. Eventually we moved on to a bean to cup machine with all sorts of complicated settings. That was great too, and has never stopped working. I’ve had an Aeropress for years but eventually I realised I’d just skip having coffee because I couldn’t be arsed grinding beans and faffing and then washing it up every time. I do think having little physical rituals in life is important, especially when they break you out of the monotony of work etc. But also life is short and I like things that work well. My response to a broken coffee machine will always be to get a better coffee machine, not a worse one.
Yep. As much as I used to love my Aeropress, it's been sitting and gathering dust in a drawer for a few years now. +1 for bean-to-cup coffee machines!
Recently did something similar, and switch to a Bunn. They aren't cheap, but my grandparent's had one last for 20 years. It's an always-on heated reservoir that uses gravity to dispense the water over the beans. You pour the water into the top, close the lid, and the room temperature water flows down into the reservoir pushing the hot water out over the beans.
They are simple, easy to repair, machines. While I spent ~$100 on mine, the longevity of it will likely make it cheaper than lower priced units that need to be replaced more frequently. It brews faster than a Keurig since the reservoir is always on. It's also about as good of a pour over as you can make given the constant stream of perfect temp water.
10/10 would recommend.
They are simple, easy to repair, machines. While I spent ~$100 on mine, the longevity of it will likely make it cheaper than lower priced units that need to be replaced more frequently. It brews faster than a Keurig since the reservoir is always on. It's also about as good of a pour over as you can make given the constant stream of perfect temp water.
10/10 would recommend.
I was gifted a Bunn VPR a few years ago as well and love it. Nearly everything on it is made out of metal, very little plastic. Easily serviceable. Makes what I at least consider to be good coffee (I like a few cups each morning but I'm not really a connoisseur - but it's better than any drip machine I've had previously).
My only complaints:
1) No auto-shutoff on the hotplate, so if you forget you get a nice burned coffee smell to remind you.
2) Keeps a reservoir of hot water all the time which isn't very efficient. I plan to add a timer to only have it be hot in the mornings when I need it.
3) I miss the interrupting feature that my old coffee maker had where you could take the pot out from underneath while it was brewing and it would not drip all over. The Bunn brews fast so this isn't a huge problem, but sometimes as it's finishing and there's a few drips coming out you want to fill your cup and not have it drip on the hotplate.
It's not for everyone, but I'm happy with it and I'm confident this machine will last as long as I want it to.
My only complaints:
1) No auto-shutoff on the hotplate, so if you forget you get a nice burned coffee smell to remind you.
2) Keeps a reservoir of hot water all the time which isn't very efficient. I plan to add a timer to only have it be hot in the mornings when I need it.
3) I miss the interrupting feature that my old coffee maker had where you could take the pot out from underneath while it was brewing and it would not drip all over. The Bunn brews fast so this isn't a huge problem, but sometimes as it's finishing and there's a few drips coming out you want to fill your cup and not have it drip on the hotplate.
It's not for everyone, but I'm happy with it and I'm confident this machine will last as long as I want it to.
Also 10/10 recommendation. I am assuming we have the same machine. It's been a stellar coffee machine for about 8 years now. My sister took our father's when he passed (same model) and it has been strong for 10+ years.
This is very recognizable. Every time I arrive at the coffee machine, I have to perform 30 tasks (cleaning, rinsing, …) and press on 20 settings just to get a simple espresso.
I highly recommend cold brew coffee. We make it once a week or so. My wife grinds her mix of beans, into the toddy, add cold water, let steep over night and drip the next day. Add some brew to a cup and top off with hot water. Cold brew will keep for quite a while in the refrigerator. No fuss, bother and filling the landfill with little plastic cups. IMHO too many simple tasks are over-engineered into ready to fail products.
I totally agree. Go low tech or get a real Italian (style) espresso machine for a few thousand dollars. But only if making coffee is your hobby. Otherwise low tech is good enough, there are so many ways to make good coffee without a machine (cold brew, french press, manual filters, Turkish coffee, …)
Chemex pour-over turned out to be the sweet spot: Last summer we rented a house in England for a month but the French-press coffee maker in the house was too small for our family and a pain to clean. So we picked up a Chemex, used it happily, and brought it home.
Supposedly important: We use an electric kettle that allows us to specify the temperature, in this case 200°F / 93°C, not boiling.
Making coffee takes a few minutes of attention but it's a nice way to wake up in the morning — as the coffee is pouring through, I'll get the paper and start reading it, check emails, empty the dishwasher, etc.
Washing out the glassware each time with dish soap and a sponge wand, vice just rinsing: A habit ingrained from college-freshman chemistry class.
Chemex: https://a.co/d/8YfriZF (Amazon.com)
Bamboo stand: https://a.co/d/1n2zOet
Chemex filters (coffee people claim they're better): https://a.co/d/6vrexRH
Supposedly important: We use an electric kettle that allows us to specify the temperature, in this case 200°F / 93°C, not boiling.
Making coffee takes a few minutes of attention but it's a nice way to wake up in the morning — as the coffee is pouring through, I'll get the paper and start reading it, check emails, empty the dishwasher, etc.
Washing out the glassware each time with dish soap and a sponge wand, vice just rinsing: A habit ingrained from college-freshman chemistry class.
Chemex: https://a.co/d/8YfriZF (Amazon.com)
Bamboo stand: https://a.co/d/1n2zOet
Chemex filters (coffee people claim they're better): https://a.co/d/6vrexRH
In my kitchen I always try to go as low tech as possible. Usually that’s not worse then high tech, way more reliable and often less work.
For coffee: just get a French press. The taste is somewhere between Filter coffee and espresso. You can’t run out of filters, because you don’t need any. The only waste you produce is the coffee. And you can get them for as little as 10$. And you can let the dishwasher clean it.
For coffee: just get a French press. The taste is somewhere between Filter coffee and espresso. You can’t run out of filters, because you don’t need any. The only waste you produce is the coffee. And you can get them for as little as 10$. And you can let the dishwasher clean it.
I hear you. My entire stove had to be replaced because the control board for the digital display overheated (hello, it's an oven!) and stopped working. Everything else was fine, except you couldn't operate the thing without that control panel. So I looked a long time to find something completely manual with real metal knobs and actual switches.
For coffee, I love my Aeropress... it's a manual plastic coffee press that you can easily travel with.
For coffee, I love my Aeropress... it's a manual plastic coffee press that you can easily travel with.
> My entire stove had to be replaced because the control board for the digital display overheated
There is a place in the suburbs of Chicago that rebuilds them for ~$500 with a turnaround time of a week or less. A lot of people aren't willing to spend that much to repair an "old" stove but in our case it saved us $10k because our stupid stove is a non-standard size that nobody but a few niche European manufacturers build any more.
There is a place in the suburbs of Chicago that rebuilds them for ~$500 with a turnaround time of a week or less. A lot of people aren't willing to spend that much to repair an "old" stove but in our case it saved us $10k because our stupid stove is a non-standard size that nobody but a few niche European manufacturers build any more.
Do you tolerate a lot of grounds in your coffee, or use a really course grind? I like the result of a French press except for all the grounds.
You need to grind your coffee into bigger pieces. With a good coffee grinder there should be no dust created. The coffee grinders with a rotating knife are just awful, throw it away and get one that works like a pepper grinder.
If you buy already ground coffee you need to tell the shop to make it coarser, tell them you need it for the French press they will know. If you buy the coffee online, you can usually chose the grade of grinding in the online shop.
It’s the opposite for an espresso machine, there you need it extra-fine.
Pre-packaged powder from the supermarket usually tastes like mud, because it’s not freshly grinded.
If you buy already ground coffee you need to tell the shop to make it coarser, tell them you need it for the French press they will know. If you buy the coffee online, you can usually chose the grade of grinding in the online shop.
It’s the opposite for an espresso machine, there you need it extra-fine.
Pre-packaged powder from the supermarket usually tastes like mud, because it’s not freshly grinded.
I mentioned this above, but the Aeropress is a great solution for French press simplicity and taste without the grounds ending up in your cup. It has tiny round paper filters and it's pretty much self-cleaning. After using it (all manual), you just unscrew the filter and eject the coffee grounds.
I need to try one of those once. But if you need filters that’s really bad for me. I always forget to restock on those little things. I’m already happy if I managed to buy coffee on time ;)
FWIW, a filter pack has around 300 filters last time I checked. You'll have a bit of headroom.
Okay, that’s good. I can keep the French press as a fallback.
But usually I run on green tea, which you can always do Chinese style, by just putting the leaves into a glass with hot water and wait until they reach the bottom of the glass.
But usually I run on green tea, which you can always do Chinese style, by just putting the leaves into a glass with hot water and wait until they reach the bottom of the glass.
Someone linked the espro, which has a double filter system for fewer grounds.
https://us.moccamaster.com/collections/cafe-office-brewers/p...
It ain't cheap, but it's sturdy and dependable, and it makes a very good cup of coffee. It's already outlasted every other coffee machine I've ever had.
It ain't cheap, but it's sturdy and dependable, and it makes a very good cup of coffee. It's already outlasted every other coffee machine I've ever had.
This is the latest classic home version of that, I have one:
https://us.moccamaster.com/products/kbgv-select
Good coffee, compact, looks good, easily fixable if a piece breaks since the movable parts are all individually purchasable (e.g. carafe top). Definitely expensive though. The 8-cup OXO is another good option.
https://us.moccamaster.com/products/kbgv-select
Good coffee, compact, looks good, easily fixable if a piece breaks since the movable parts are all individually purchasable (e.g. carafe top). Definitely expensive though. The 8-cup OXO is another good option.
I have a Mr. Coffee machine with a timer. I got it new for $20 at Target. It makes coffee for me in the mornings.
There's an appropriate level of complexity, and it's not a hard line. It's a balance between convenience and absurd complexity. Can I both achieve a simple task and a more complex task, with appropriate levels of effort for both tasks?
There's an appropriate level of complexity, and it's not a hard line. It's a balance between convenience and absurd complexity. Can I both achieve a simple task and a more complex task, with appropriate levels of effort for both tasks?
That was our hack for the coffee in the previous job. Company mandated timers coz people forgot to turn it off when leaving so what we did ? Obviously prepared it before leaving then timer started it around 8:50 and we got a bunch of fresh coffee in the morning and smell of coffee right from the door
Simple drip-coffee makers still exist. A lot of other products that try to fill different needs also exist in the coffee segment.
For example, I have a coffee machine that uses ground coffee to make just a single cup instead of a whole pot, like a Keurig, but without the wasteful pods. Is this over-engineered? Maybe compared to a Mr. Coffree, but I it fills my needs without added pods.
For example, I have a coffee machine that uses ground coffee to make just a single cup instead of a whole pot, like a Keurig, but without the wasteful pods. Is this over-engineered? Maybe compared to a Mr. Coffree, but I it fills my needs without added pods.
Yeah I got a countertop oven/air fryer for Christmas. It's nice and all, but very complicated. It has over 100 preset modes, and you can program your own. But 99% of the time all I want to do is set a temperature and a time. That's easy enough, but it would be a much more elegant machine without all the other options and controls.
It would be better if you still had all the presets, but also a very simple interface for temp and time. If you want to make a specific recipe, you can still use a preset, but simple tasks are still simple.
> The product tries to do too much.
Not necessarily. It could be the product was designed around many different facets - user stories, bug reports, marketing requests, safety standards. Then there's the stuff you don't necessarily control, like cost controls and deadlines.
At the end of it there's quality control, and that's where these things usually fall down. You can make a super duper fancy coffee maker that won't die after 3 months. But you need the QC to ensure quality at scale. 90% of the defects might be easy to solve, but the last 10% might be too costly/time-consuming. If only 1 in 1000 will have a defect, it might be simpler/cheaper to replace the defective ones than do the QC to prevent it.
You don't have to have a simple design for reliability. But the more complex it is, the more quality control is necessary to make it reliable.
(I use an Aeropress, but that's because I only drink 1 cup... for more than 1, I'd probably go french press)
Not necessarily. It could be the product was designed around many different facets - user stories, bug reports, marketing requests, safety standards. Then there's the stuff you don't necessarily control, like cost controls and deadlines.
At the end of it there's quality control, and that's where these things usually fall down. You can make a super duper fancy coffee maker that won't die after 3 months. But you need the QC to ensure quality at scale. 90% of the defects might be easy to solve, but the last 10% might be too costly/time-consuming. If only 1 in 1000 will have a defect, it might be simpler/cheaper to replace the defective ones than do the QC to prevent it.
You don't have to have a simple design for reliability. But the more complex it is, the more quality control is necessary to make it reliable.
(I use an Aeropress, but that's because I only drink 1 cup... for more than 1, I'd probably go french press)
In last 10 or so years I've gone a full circle with coffee makers (manufacturers rejoice!) in a quest for better coffee. From Moccamaster, to Keurig, Nespresso, french press, fancy capucino machine or two, and now back to filtered coffee /w Wilfa Classic.
At the end of the day, it turns out I am drinking it for the effect, and quantity (as in volume of liquid, more is better). Although lately I've found some decafs that produce a rather pleasant brew. Filtered coffee from the 'right' (for me) ground coffees seem to hit right balance between ease of use, speed, and taste.
And then there are some studies indicating that filtered coffee might be a bit healthier[0] than other forms.
[0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-hea...
At the end of the day, it turns out I am drinking it for the effect, and quantity (as in volume of liquid, more is better). Although lately I've found some decafs that produce a rather pleasant brew. Filtered coffee from the 'right' (for me) ground coffees seem to hit right balance between ease of use, speed, and taste.
And then there are some studies indicating that filtered coffee might be a bit healthier[0] than other forms.
[0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-hea...
I'd actually consider something like the Wilfa Classic (£189.00) to be on the opposite end of the product-design spectrum compared to the $12 no-name coffee maker mentioned in the article. You see a similar 'do one thing really well' focus in high-end and low-end appliances, the difference being less-significant details that most consumers don't care about and wouldn't spend a premium to enjoy (in this case, probably more precise brewing temperatures and extraction times).
In-between is where all the bloated trash gets dumped.
In-between is where all the bloated trash gets dumped.
I have a Stagg EKG Electric Kettle. It is quite featureful for a kettle, with variable temperature control and the ability to continuously hold at the desired temperature. Some might even consider it too featureful (particularly if you count the snake minigame easter egg), but in general its main features are things that coffee lovers appreciate and it's a popular product.
Of course, now they have released the "Pro Studio Edition", which in addition to the above also sends you updates over WiFi. What could go wrong?
I agree with some other commenters, though, that this is ultimately driven by consumers. I'm sure "Corporate" would love to be able to sell us all on minimalism so they could charge more for less. But consumers love features and frankly most don't care about waste. I agree with the sentiments in the article but it is very much a minority view.
Of course, now they have released the "Pro Studio Edition", which in addition to the above also sends you updates over WiFi. What could go wrong?
I agree with some other commenters, though, that this is ultimately driven by consumers. I'm sure "Corporate" would love to be able to sell us all on minimalism so they could charge more for less. But consumers love features and frankly most don't care about waste. I agree with the sentiments in the article but it is very much a minority view.
My coffee maker is a ceramic cone with a tiny hole in the bottom and a handle on one side. Best one I've ever had, and I can't imagine using anything else to make coffee. It'll never become obsolete, never need descaling, and has been 'running' perfectly for over 10 years now.
I agree. No need to over-complicate pouring water into a cone.
As an added benefit, I don’t have to spend my morning participating in technology and the occasional associated frustrations. I can save that for later in my day, after I’ve had my cup of coffee.
As an added benefit, I don’t have to spend my morning participating in technology and the occasional associated frustrations. I can save that for later in my day, after I’ve had my cup of coffee.
Apple had a design philosophy that a device should do one thing only. That is why the iPod was so amazingly successful. It was just a music player. No meeting planner or contacts list. Just played music.
This design simplified things and allowed each button to serve a distinct purpose.
With the iPhone, the design philosophy carried. The iPhone could change itself via running different apps. To switch between features you had a single giant button at the bottom. But each app should do one thing. So it was either a phone, calculator, GPS, or Rolodex. But never all at the same time. And never more than one thing on screen at the same time.
They started to get away from this, such as using a volume button to take a picture. Or displaying a video inside a window. I would argue overall it makes things more complicated.
This design simplified things and allowed each button to serve a distinct purpose.
With the iPhone, the design philosophy carried. The iPhone could change itself via running different apps. To switch between features you had a single giant button at the bottom. But each app should do one thing. So it was either a phone, calculator, GPS, or Rolodex. But never all at the same time. And never more than one thing on screen at the same time.
They started to get away from this, such as using a volume button to take a picture. Or displaying a video inside a window. I would argue overall it makes things more complicated.
Apple added contacts, notes, calendars, photos, videos, podcasts, and games over subsequent revisions. From day 1 you could use it as a FireWire drive in addition to a music player (5GB when USB flash drives were still measured in megabytes and likely going over a 1.1 bus instead of a 2.0 bus). It might have had a game or two at launch but I can’t honestly remember at this point, but either way games for iPods were also sold through iTunes in a later revision.
iPods were best used as music players but they were pretty much always multi-function devices. In a world where Apple didn’t follow it up with iPhones: music phones and camera phones were finally starting to converge in a way that would have eventually eaten the iPod’s and point-and-shoot camera market’s lunches.
iPods were best used as music players but they were pretty much always multi-function devices. In a world where Apple didn’t follow it up with iPhones: music phones and camera phones were finally starting to converge in a way that would have eventually eaten the iPod’s and point-and-shoot camera market’s lunches.
> "To switch between features you had a single giant button at the bottom. But each app should do one thing. So it was either a phone, calculator, GPS, or Rolodex. But never all at the same time."
On the Apple Watch they've taken this philosophy a little bit too far, in my opinion. In several cases you have apps that are conceptually very similar (such as the "Find Items" app and the "Find Devices" app) ... really these are so similar that they should be the same app, yet they are separate, which clutters up the app launcher with huge numbers of apps. And an over-cluttered app launcher is, by nature, more difficult and slower to use.
On the Apple Watch they've taken this philosophy a little bit too far, in my opinion. In several cases you have apps that are conceptually very similar (such as the "Find Items" app and the "Find Devices" app) ... really these are so similar that they should be the same app, yet they are separate, which clutters up the app launcher with huge numbers of apps. And an over-cluttered app launcher is, by nature, more difficult and slower to use.
Love the breadth and depth of opinion in the comments.
I have French press, Aeropress, Chemex, and Moka pot at home and am currently using them in descending frequency. I’m using the French press more now since I stayed at an AirBnB that had the Timemore Small U French Press [0] - it’s a really well-resolved bit of kit. I have a wooden stirring stick which was once a large rough chopstick, and I am enjoying feeling it acquire smoothness and patina over time.
[0] https://us.timemore.com/collections/other/products/timemore-...
I have French press, Aeropress, Chemex, and Moka pot at home and am currently using them in descending frequency. I’m using the French press more now since I stayed at an AirBnB that had the Timemore Small U French Press [0] - it’s a really well-resolved bit of kit. I have a wooden stirring stick which was once a large rough chopstick, and I am enjoying feeling it acquire smoothness and patina over time.
[0] https://us.timemore.com/collections/other/products/timemore-...
Talking about coffe makers. I swear to Moccamaster. At my grandfathers cabin, I've had coffee made from a Moccamaster older then me, and I'm turning 40 later this year.
It just makes damn good coffee. Don't expect it to break on my watch.
It just makes damn good coffee. Don't expect it to break on my watch.
My Delonghi coffee machine (ECAM 350.35.W) developed a fault after a couple of years of use. It would often give an "INSERT INFUSER ASSEMBLY" error when trying to turn it on, especially if it was already warmed up (cold starts on cold mornings tended to work fine!). Perhaps this was due to a faulty microswitch or similar so it was failing to properly detect the position of the infuser within the machine.
Delonghi charged £120 for the repair, including shipping both ways, which is about 1/4 of the new price. Came back fully cleaned, descaled, and serviced and has worked perfectly again ever since.
So hats off to Delonghi for designing repairable machines!
Delonghi charged £120 for the repair, including shipping both ways, which is about 1/4 of the new price. Came back fully cleaned, descaled, and serviced and has worked perfectly again ever since.
So hats off to Delonghi for designing repairable machines!
So the manufacturer gets revenue from the sale but externalizes the cost of trashing the device.
The buyer personally benefits from many features for cheap, and externalizes the environmental cost to society.
I say it is good design, from a business perspective.
Also, yet another instance of the Tragedy Of The Commons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
The buyer personally benefits from many features for cheap, and externalizes the environmental cost to society.
I say it is good design, from a business perspective.
Also, yet another instance of the Tragedy Of The Commons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Ironically, the latest addition to my coffee system is going to be the Fellow Ode v2 grinder. A lot of people had specific problems with the first version, and then instead of adding features, they just went in and improved all of their existing ones to solve all the issues. With the exception of an ionizer to reduce static and create a cleaner experience. But it didn't grind for espresso and still doesn't.
Fellow Opus ($195) is coming Feb 21 and grinds espresso:
https://www.gearpatrol.com/food/a42409254/fellow-opus-grinde...
https://fellowproducts.com/pages/opus-is-coming
https://www.gearpatrol.com/food/a42409254/fellow-opus-grinde...
https://fellowproducts.com/pages/opus-is-coming
Interesting, thanks for the link. I wonder what the advantage of the Ode will be after that, for as almost double the price. I don't have an interest in getting into espresso, but I wonder
If you want a decent coffee maker that'll outlast you - https://www.moccamaster.eu/
Made out of extruded aluminium and a copper element, handbuilt in Netherlands, been making then for decades, spare parts available, makes good coffee.
Not going to change your life - but one less thing to worry about. Makes me 0.1% happier every morning.
Made out of extruded aluminium and a copper element, handbuilt in Netherlands, been making then for decades, spare parts available, makes good coffee.
Not going to change your life - but one less thing to worry about. Makes me 0.1% happier every morning.
Simple drip machines are a marvel--I spend more on a month's supply of beans than I do on the maker, and have been getting about 5 years daily service out of each one. Technology Connections made a great video explaining how stupid/brilliant they are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9H0MO-qS8
The Keurig that worked well for me was a institutional model from Staples with simpler controls. The model with manual water fill works fine also. When my partner was buying a countertop oven, I suggested the version that was $5 more expensive that had a temp knob rather than a digital display, because once the display fails, you have an expensive brick.
V60 or French Press is enough. You can use it for decades without anything but basic cleaning. Machines like Keurig are a disease.
French press I would not recommend. You get a lot of unhealthy oils normally removed by a paper filter. After my coffee maker broke, I ran with french press (about 6 cups a day) for 2 months and it made me feel unhealthy after a while.
Then I switched back to a drip coffee maker (Moccamaster in fact) - coffee is excellent. Same issue might apply to espresso machines.. not sure.
Then I switched back to a drip coffee maker (Moccamaster in fact) - coffee is excellent. Same issue might apply to espresso machines.. not sure.
Keurig is a blight on coffee; here's why: https://muddydogcoffee.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/why-the-keur...
I've had my chemex for 7 years now, and it's still going strong! I can't see it going wrong any time soon :P
Technology Connections on youtube has an awesome video about coffee makers! its 35 minutes, but i highly recommend it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9H0MO-qS8
i think it's actually amazing how much design went into these "dead simple" coffee machines!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9H0MO-qS8
i think it's actually amazing how much design went into these "dead simple" coffee machines!
He also made a video about water kettles, which I found just as interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c
In the same vein, I think the industry is ripe for "smart-less" TVs. Reduce the cost, and take all the smarts out of it. Don't even need wifi. Apple TV, roku, chromecast - enough good options out there that there's really no need for your TV to come built in with any apps or smart features.
I hope that you're right but I don't think you are.
While we (you, me, most of HN) see smart TVs as an anti-feature, most of the public sees them as a huge feature.
"I can't buy a TV that doesn't support Netflix, I want to watch Netflix!"
"yes but you can just get a AppleTV and watch Netflix with that"
"I don't like the Apple TV service, it doesn't have as many good shows as Netflix!"
Even if you can convince them that AppleTV can show them netflix you need to get past such insurmountable obstacles as "needing an HDMI cable" and "having two remotes" and "which input does the TV need to be on?" and "which remote do I use for the volume?"
And, yes, CEC fixes some of this and 80% of the time when it works it's fantastic.
I think we'll see TVs which have "swappable" OSes before we see smart-free TVs but I don't think either one is gonna happen in my lifetime.
I'm just resigned to buy the least-shitty smart TV experience I can and to neuter it as much as I can. Currently I have a nice LG C9 OLED which doesn't bother me at all. If this dies before me, or, I feel compelled for an 8K/UltraHDR upgrade, I think LG will continue to offer reasonably non-shitty experiences on their top of the line TVs which I can block from the internet still.
When they stop doing that I'll just buy a projector.
When projectors become infested with this nonsense I'll just move to the woods and become a hermit.
While we (you, me, most of HN) see smart TVs as an anti-feature, most of the public sees them as a huge feature.
"I can't buy a TV that doesn't support Netflix, I want to watch Netflix!"
"yes but you can just get a AppleTV and watch Netflix with that"
"I don't like the Apple TV service, it doesn't have as many good shows as Netflix!"
Even if you can convince them that AppleTV can show them netflix you need to get past such insurmountable obstacles as "needing an HDMI cable" and "having two remotes" and "which input does the TV need to be on?" and "which remote do I use for the volume?"
And, yes, CEC fixes some of this and 80% of the time when it works it's fantastic.
I think we'll see TVs which have "swappable" OSes before we see smart-free TVs but I don't think either one is gonna happen in my lifetime.
I'm just resigned to buy the least-shitty smart TV experience I can and to neuter it as much as I can. Currently I have a nice LG C9 OLED which doesn't bother me at all. If this dies before me, or, I feel compelled for an 8K/UltraHDR upgrade, I think LG will continue to offer reasonably non-shitty experiences on their top of the line TVs which I can block from the internet still.
When they stop doing that I'll just buy a projector.
When projectors become infested with this nonsense I'll just move to the woods and become a hermit.
> While we (you, me, most of HN) see smart TVs as an anti-feature, most of the public sees them as a huge feature.
There's a lot of truth here but the manufacturers skimp so much on hardware that they're making that easier to understand. When you buy a brand new Samsung 4K TV and it can't play >1080p without stuttering the value of an Apple TV is a lot easier to understand.
> Even if you can convince them that AppleTV can show them netflix you need to get past such insurmountable obstacles as "needing an HDMI cable" and "having two remotes" and "which input does the TV need to be on?" and "which remote do I use for the volume?"
This is incorrect for the last 3 (you need something like 2000s-era hardware not to auto-detect inputs or allow the player's remote to control the volume) and the first one is true but also quite familiar to most people and it's hard to buy one without some kind of “do you already have a cable?” prompt since the vendors all want to sell you one.
There's a lot of truth here but the manufacturers skimp so much on hardware that they're making that easier to understand. When you buy a brand new Samsung 4K TV and it can't play >1080p without stuttering the value of an Apple TV is a lot easier to understand.
> Even if you can convince them that AppleTV can show them netflix you need to get past such insurmountable obstacles as "needing an HDMI cable" and "having two remotes" and "which input does the TV need to be on?" and "which remote do I use for the volume?"
This is incorrect for the last 3 (you need something like 2000s-era hardware not to auto-detect inputs or allow the player's remote to control the volume) and the first one is true but also quite familiar to most people and it's hard to buy one without some kind of “do you already have a cable?” prompt since the vendors all want to sell you one.
> I think we'll see TVs which have "swappable" OSes before we see smart-free TVs but I don't think either one is gonna happen in my lifetime.
There was already a thing doing it, didn't get popular.
But I'd definitely see the market for "just few HDMI inputs and a screen", especially for people that say already use Netflix from their PS5 or xbox
There was already a thing doing it, didn't get popular.
But I'd definitely see the market for "just few HDMI inputs and a screen", especially for people that say already use Netflix from their PS5 or xbox
Such TVs will never exist, and people need to get used to that.
Customers care about price and features. A TV with "less" features has no market appeal, except to a very, very niche audience.
It also has far less power to collect user data, which means less profit as well.
Customers care about price and features. A TV with "less" features has no market appeal, except to a very, very niche audience.
It also has far less power to collect user data, which means less profit as well.
I have a 4-cup Mr Coffee maker (definitely purchased for less than $25) that has been chugging along for about 15 years now. I just bought a Breville Nespresso Creatista Plus over the holidays because I got spoiled in Italy a few months ago. Which one will die first? I know what my money is on...
The $12 one works great until the thermal fuse blows for no reason. Luckily it's easy to fix with a soldering iron.
I've been doing pour-overs for a couple years now. I am always amused when I get LinkedIn messages from coffee brewing startups looking for embedded firmware engineers!
I've been doing pour-overs for a couple years now. I am always amused when I get LinkedIn messages from coffee brewing startups looking for embedded firmware engineers!
I use a cheap Bodum pour over, but if I was going to spend too much money on a coffee maker: https://ammunitiongroup.com/projects_pt/terra-kaffe/
That Terra Kaffe looks wonderful but it's probably the exact opposite of what the article writee wants.
>The machine houses numerous proprietary systems
Yuck.
>The machine houses numerous proprietary systems
Yuck.
One of the best high quality purchases I have made is an Italian coffee grinder, built like a tank. It doesn't even have soft power, but it does have a small touch LCD (non dot matrix) to set the timer. Perfecto!
My simple Keurig has no clock, size options, cleaning requirements or any fancy features and it's been rock solid for years (knocks on wood). Maybe this guy/gal just needed a more simple... Keurig?
I'm on my second Hamilton Beach unit like this. I really liked the simplicity and cost but now it can't even make a simple pod correctly; I'm (once more) getting weak, tepid "coffee-like water". I do clean it regularly but it also seems to be brewing very fast.
So it's not just over-complexity, it's also terrible quality in a race for the bottom.
So it's not just over-complexity, it's also terrible quality in a race for the bottom.
[deleted]
The model that I think the OP is talking about has 3.4/5 stars on Keurig's own website. That's a horrible rating.
Maybe there's a different lesson to be learned here?
Maybe there's a different lesson to be learned here?
Customers are ultimately the problem here - not designers.
Customers want lots of features, and they want it at a cheap price. This has resulted in an arms race of every-more-poorly made devices that try to do more and more with less and less.
This is the problem. Demand. Not the designers. They're just working within the market that exists.
There is of course demand on the higher end price brackets as well, but that's a separate discussion. That makes up a minority of all sales in terms of volume.
Customers want lots of features, and they want it at a cheap price. This has resulted in an arms race of every-more-poorly made devices that try to do more and more with less and less.
This is the problem. Demand. Not the designers. They're just working within the market that exists.
There is of course demand on the higher end price brackets as well, but that's a separate discussion. That makes up a minority of all sales in terms of volume.
i've received the most compliments for coffee when using pour over, also feel it's the easiest way to make a cup/2 and it's portable for camping, travel etc. Plus everything is compostable
keurig always leaves me disappointed just from a coffee drinking perspective
My coffee maker can communicate with my stove and refrigerator over wifi. He seems less lonely now.
The Simpson's Poochie episode is an insightful and classic satire on product design.
It's funny how the engineers are rarely the ones over-engineering.
My $20 coffee maker lasts me years.
Not to get defensive — I am a designer — but there are two things missing from the conversation when you lay blame at the feet of designers.
First, you bought that over-complicated appliance for the same reason everyone else does: it has more features, and you like features. Everyone wants features. If you want to sell an appliance today, you have to cram in more features, and do it more cheaply than the competition.
If you want companies to produce simpler, higher-quality products, then search out and buy those products. Vote with your feet, and your wallet. Companies build what sells.
Second, that designer likely has as much real agency as the engineers building the firmware for the control board. Corporate mandated 12 months ago, “A coffee maker with features A, B, and C and price point P and trim level T.” The designer likely has no place to argue with any of that. A product marketing executive made these decisions, and for one reason — to build what sells.
The author is totally right that companies often ship software that’s too complex, or solves too many problems and does so poorly. This is mostly because the design/engineering team (a) takes directions from Corporate rather than from users, (b) Corporate wants more features so the product stacks up vs. the competition.