X offices raided in France(apnews.com)
apnews.com
X offices raided in France
https://apnews.com/article/france-x-investigation-seach-elon-musk-1116be84d84201011219086ecfd4e0bc
16 comments
[dupe] Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46868998
Comments moved thither. Thanks!
Ok, that's the second article on this that doesn't mention how it works in France.
I will explain because I see a lot of post that could be better if their author understood that the French system isn't the US system.
France 'prosecutor' role is divided in two: one is called 'procureur' and represent the state, but is chosen among judges by the executive power. The second is 'juge d'instruction' and represent the judiciary. They are chosen nominated by the local court without any executive power involvement. They lead the investigation, they order the raids, they order the arrest etc, without involvement from the 'procureur'.
The 'procureur' ask for a 'juge d'instruction' to lead an investigation on X/Y or Z (this fucking company name makes everything worse FFS). The judge will then collect evidence, for and against the procureur case, and then if necessary will ask for raids and auditions to finalise. When that's done and all the new evidence is collected (it can take on average 2 years, but if it's an international case like for our ex-president, it can take 10+), the 'juge d'instruction' will present all the gathered evidence to the procureur (who will decide to pursue or not) _and_ the accused.
This system exists to avoid as much as possible the executive (police and politicians) to use investigations as a scare tactic. Of course the magistrates know each other, and both corruption and influence is possible, and maybe that's the case here, but you ought to know the raid can't be at the behest of the procureur/president. We take separation of powers seriously here
I will explain because I see a lot of post that could be better if their author understood that the French system isn't the US system.
France 'prosecutor' role is divided in two: one is called 'procureur' and represent the state, but is chosen among judges by the executive power. The second is 'juge d'instruction' and represent the judiciary. They are chosen nominated by the local court without any executive power involvement. They lead the investigation, they order the raids, they order the arrest etc, without involvement from the 'procureur'.
The 'procureur' ask for a 'juge d'instruction' to lead an investigation on X/Y or Z (this fucking company name makes everything worse FFS). The judge will then collect evidence, for and against the procureur case, and then if necessary will ask for raids and auditions to finalise. When that's done and all the new evidence is collected (it can take on average 2 years, but if it's an international case like for our ex-president, it can take 10+), the 'juge d'instruction' will present all the gathered evidence to the procureur (who will decide to pursue or not) _and_ the accused.
This system exists to avoid as much as possible the executive (police and politicians) to use investigations as a scare tactic. Of course the magistrates know each other, and both corruption and influence is possible, and maybe that's the case here, but you ought to know the raid can't be at the behest of the procureur/president. We take separation of powers seriously here
This is really useful for those of us who are really only familiar with the US system. Let me restate a few things to make sure I understand, and follow with some questions:
1. The "procureur" and "juge d'instruction" are chosen from the same pool of judges, with the former appointed by the government executive, and the latter nominated by the judges themselves.
2. Does the executive choose one "procureur" to serve a particular region for a particular span of time, or do they choose a "procureur" every time there's some sort of criminal activity they think needs investigation?
3. How is the pool of judges themselves chosen? In the US, for example, federal judges are chosen by the president and confirmed by the senate, and serve for life. While state court judges are typically elected for a specified term.
4. Supposing we both live in France and I break into your house and steal from you. What happens next? For the sake of telling a story, suppose that you have a security camera from which I could be recognized, but not so clearly that anybody can be certain it's me until someone searches my garage and finds your stolen things. Walk me through the process of who does what?
1. The "procureur" and "juge d'instruction" are chosen from the same pool of judges, with the former appointed by the government executive, and the latter nominated by the judges themselves.
2. Does the executive choose one "procureur" to serve a particular region for a particular span of time, or do they choose a "procureur" every time there's some sort of criminal activity they think needs investigation?
3. How is the pool of judges themselves chosen? In the US, for example, federal judges are chosen by the president and confirmed by the senate, and serve for life. While state court judges are typically elected for a specified term.
4. Supposing we both live in France and I break into your house and steal from you. What happens next? For the sake of telling a story, suppose that you have a security camera from which I could be recognized, but not so clearly that anybody can be certain it's me until someone searches my garage and finds your stolen things. Walk me through the process of who does what?
Sorry, I'm not a legal expert, it's mostly what I remember from classes. I'll do my best
1-2/ I'm pretty sure the procureur can be named from anywhere , to any court, an can be an ex-arttorney while I think the juge d'instruction is named by the local magistrates, but have to have followed a very strict formation beforehand (and I think you have to be a top scorer or something).
3/ judges are chosen by passing a very competitive test before 31yo, then being taught during 3 more years (to access the test you need a master degree, if you fail you can still become an attorney, and attorneys can work a number of years and pass the test again, but in that case the age limit is like 40)
4/ here I'm not exactly sure. I go to the police, they investigate. If they found nothing but have reasonable suspicions, they ask a judge to authorise a 'perquisition' (basically a warrant, which have to be served between 8 AM and 10 PM). A juge d'instruction will only be responsible for an investigation in very difficult administrative cases (they are insulated from political pressure as much as possible, that makes them very good to investigate corruption cases) or in a heinous crime (basically anything involving children, multiple murders, terrorism)
1-2/ I'm pretty sure the procureur can be named from anywhere , to any court, an can be an ex-arttorney while I think the juge d'instruction is named by the local magistrates, but have to have followed a very strict formation beforehand (and I think you have to be a top scorer or something).
3/ judges are chosen by passing a very competitive test before 31yo, then being taught during 3 more years (to access the test you need a master degree, if you fail you can still become an attorney, and attorneys can work a number of years and pass the test again, but in that case the age limit is like 40)
4/ here I'm not exactly sure. I go to the police, they investigate. If they found nothing but have reasonable suspicions, they ask a judge to authorise a 'perquisition' (basically a warrant, which have to be served between 8 AM and 10 PM). A juge d'instruction will only be responsible for an investigation in very difficult administrative cases (they are insulated from political pressure as much as possible, that makes them very good to investigate corruption cases) or in a heinous crime (basically anything involving children, multiple murders, terrorism)
Thanks for this, it's really important to reflect the fact that aside from anything else, the common law tradition practiced in most anglophone countries is fundamentally at odds with a lot of European countries.
What's the distinction you're making between "state" and "judiciary"?
Traditionally, in France, l’État (likely translated into "the state" here) refers to the national-level executive branch.
The procureur is part of the executive, and thus represents, and is directed by, the government. The other is independent from the executive, as part of the judicary branch.
@dang The title here is misleading. The original not.
X didn't raid the prosecutors offices, the prosecutors did
X didn't raid the prosecutors offices, the prosecutors did
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