Japanese zoning(urbankchoze.blogspot.com)
urbankchoze.blogspot.com
Japanese zoning
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html
73 comments
Oh! Also, if you're in Tokyo in November, come on out the the Hacker News Tokyo user meetup. We can discuss all of this in great detail in person:
http://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/
http://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/
> Buildings tend to have walls that are built right up to the street edge forming a 'corridor' feel.
I can't stand this and wish it were regulated. I stopped cycling in Tokyo because those walls up to corners make for a lot of blind turns for both me and drivers, and as someone with a hearing impairment, I can't count on being able to hear the car before it blindsides me or vice-versa.
I can't stand this and wish it were regulated. I stopped cycling in Tokyo because those walls up to corners make for a lot of blind turns for both me and drivers, and as someone with a hearing impairment, I can't count on being able to hear the car before it blindsides me or vice-versa.
With all of the prius and electric vehicles, you can't count on your ears to save you anymore anyway.
Tokyo gets a lot of things right about zoning but the way bike lanes are designed here is absolutely maddening.
Tokyo gets a lot of things right about zoning but the way bike lanes are designed here is absolutely maddening.
[deleted]
The lack of bicycle lanes in Japan always seemed odd to me. So many bicycles on the sidewalk.
Vietnamese embassy? We live very close it seems!
Sounds like your describing my area, on the very edge of Tokyo near nothing special.
The difference in zoning practices is super evident the moment you walk down any city street in Japan for the first time. In Japan, there are little shops and mom & pop restaurants on just about every street corner amidst even the most heavy residential areas. In many cases, the business owners live in the dwelling above.
As a north american, I found this odd initially; but came to really appreciate it given all the excellent options for eating nearby!
As a north american, I found this odd initially; but came to really appreciate it given all the excellent options for eating nearby!
Same here. When I left Japan to move back to the U.S., some of the things that seemed really odd to me were: 1) sweeter food, 2) obese people, 3) old cars driving around, 4) having to drive everywhere, even just to get to a small store, and 5) arriving via car at stores that sold things like electronics and office supplies that looked like throwbacks to a bygone era compared to what they had in Japan. As a small example of the latter, in 1997 I was using the Hi-Tec-C pen and I'm pretty sure I didn't see it for sale in the U.S. until 2007 or so.
> 4) having to drive everywhere
I can imagine that people who have grown up in walkable neighborhoods, would find a totally car-based lifestyle annoying. But how will those people feel who have made the move in the opposite direction? If someone moves from e.g. Texas to e.g. NYC or London, will they feel restricted or liberated when they walk, and use the metro? Or will they try to keep driving everywhere?
I can imagine that people who have grown up in walkable neighborhoods, would find a totally car-based lifestyle annoying. But how will those people feel who have made the move in the opposite direction? If someone moves from e.g. Texas to e.g. NYC or London, will they feel restricted or liberated when they walk, and use the metro? Or will they try to keep driving everywhere?
Good question. Speaking just for myself, I moved from a mainly-driving area to a small urban center residence some years back, and the walking aspect was great. I mean, walking to the library for the first time, I almost cried tears of joy.
At my previous residence going to the library meant a ten-minute drive, which wasn't so bad, and now it was a three-minute walk. (Interestingly I just realized that I usually lived about a ten-minute drive from the libraries near where I lived, back in Japan) I guess I could say I felt more liberated, almost like I was part-owner of the downtown space, and it was no longer a destination that I felt I had to plan to visit. The car no longer felt so necessary-though I still used it--and riding my bicycle felt like more of a natural fit.
At my previous residence going to the library meant a ten-minute drive, which wasn't so bad, and now it was a three-minute walk. (Interestingly I just realized that I usually lived about a ten-minute drive from the libraries near where I lived, back in Japan) I guess I could say I felt more liberated, almost like I was part-owner of the downtown space, and it was no longer a destination that I felt I had to plan to visit. The car no longer felt so necessary-though I still used it--and riding my bicycle felt like more of a natural fit.
I second that. I live in a suburb of Stockholm, Sweden & its a pretty walkable area. The library is litrally 2 minutes walk from my apartment. I had tears in my eyes when I walked it two years back for the first time in my life. My son's day care is 5 minutes walk. The nearest shop is 3 minutes walk. The bus/train station is 6 minutes walk. I take train to reach office which takes 35 minutes door to door. Guess what, I rarely take my car out. May be I switch my car on twice a week or sometimes once a week just to warm up the engine.
There is a lake with swimming beach in summer and a forest which is around 10 minutes walk. These are all the things which are truly priceless. And I wish everyone sometimes in their lives experience this, how much good it is to walk to do almost everything you want.
There is a lake with swimming beach in summer and a forest which is around 10 minutes walk. These are all the things which are truly priceless. And I wish everyone sometimes in their lives experience this, how much good it is to walk to do almost everything you want.
I grew up in regional Australia in an area where you needed a car to get anywhere or do anything. It was hell. I fled from there to the middle of a city the second I was old enough to do so and could not imagine going back.
P.S. based on the short amount of time I've spent in Texas I would rank it as one of the most horrible places I've visited on the face of this planet. I cannot comprehend how anyone would voluntarily live there. The same goes for anywhere (including suburban Australia) with vast expanses of low density housing. You have all of the bad parts of living in a city (low privacy, crime, lack of natural spaces) with none of the good (proximity to services, cultural density, high quality mass transit, entertainment etc).
P.S. based on the short amount of time I've spent in Texas I would rank it as one of the most horrible places I've visited on the face of this planet. I cannot comprehend how anyone would voluntarily live there. The same goes for anywhere (including suburban Australia) with vast expanses of low density housing. You have all of the bad parts of living in a city (low privacy, crime, lack of natural spaces) with none of the good (proximity to services, cultural density, high quality mass transit, entertainment etc).
I don't think anyone particularly likes public transport or car transport. It's just a matter of what's necessary, what's available, what's frictionless, what's affordable.
So in Texas where driving may be affordable, necessary because there is no alternative, frictionless because businesses buy huge plots for car parking and perhaps slightly cheaper and more ubiquitous gas stations, a car makes sense. Particularly in an environment where everyone has one and we tend to want to conform.
Then take Amsterdam (where I live). Most amenities are nearby, walking distance. Separate bike lanes on every single street. Everyone uses bikes. Parking is crap (canal parking is a nightmare) and expensive, as are cars and gas compared to rather ubiquitous tram, bus and metro service and a strong intercity train network. A car is more expensive, gives more friction, and wholly unnecessary.
The exception is if you work far outside the city. Train is fine but a personal car can be a bit more dependable and more flexible despite a nice train system.
In short, I think it makes a lot of sense to expect say a stereotypical Texan to be fine not having or needing a car in say a city like Amsterdam. He certainly wouldn't feel restricted to walk or use public transportation, rather my point is, that he'd feel restricted having to use a car in a city not designed for cars. I can't imagine anyone driving everywhere in Amsterdam. (the far suburbs are perhaps the exception, what we call 'outside the ring', but even then italian-style scooters are more popular than cars here)
So in Texas where driving may be affordable, necessary because there is no alternative, frictionless because businesses buy huge plots for car parking and perhaps slightly cheaper and more ubiquitous gas stations, a car makes sense. Particularly in an environment where everyone has one and we tend to want to conform.
Then take Amsterdam (where I live). Most amenities are nearby, walking distance. Separate bike lanes on every single street. Everyone uses bikes. Parking is crap (canal parking is a nightmare) and expensive, as are cars and gas compared to rather ubiquitous tram, bus and metro service and a strong intercity train network. A car is more expensive, gives more friction, and wholly unnecessary.
The exception is if you work far outside the city. Train is fine but a personal car can be a bit more dependable and more flexible despite a nice train system.
In short, I think it makes a lot of sense to expect say a stereotypical Texan to be fine not having or needing a car in say a city like Amsterdam. He certainly wouldn't feel restricted to walk or use public transportation, rather my point is, that he'd feel restricted having to use a car in a city not designed for cars. I can't imagine anyone driving everywhere in Amsterdam. (the far suburbs are perhaps the exception, what we call 'outside the ring', but even then italian-style scooters are more popular than cars here)
Eh, I love NYC's subway. I only hate public transport that's poorly done (most busses, trains that don't run frequently enough) and so demand much larger time buffers to do anything.
Walkability is the first preference, though, because of how nice it is, and how predictable it is in terms of timing.
Walkability is the first preference, though, because of how nice it is, and how predictable it is in terms of timing.
I moved downtown last month from the suburbs and I've found that in the city, the problem of getting to your destination is vastly more complicated. I'm completely bewildered by the changing bus/train schedules and don't understand how anyone can juggle all of those routes and times in their head to construct a path to their destination. Walk 3 blocks to A stop (absolutely not the stop closest to you, that's very important), wait B minutes for the bus but make sure not to get on the C bus, only get on the D, and make sure not to miss the stop at E or you'll go clear across the bay, and then walk a block to the station at F, take the G train to H; there's no public transport there so you're going to have to walk. Don't stay too late because the lines don't run all night. Oh, and you'd better go now because all of those directions will be useless tomorrow because it's Saturday.
It's insane. I want to leave any time I want, pull up in a vast parking lot less than a hundred yards from my destination, my GPS guiding me every turn of the way, and get there in air conditioned comfort without getting all sweaty from walking everywhere. I want to be able to go to any restaurant or shop within a 20 mile radius without thinking twice about it, instead of being constrained to a few places within walking distance. I want to be able to drive home a car overflowing with groceries from any store I care to visit instead of having to spread my shopping across every day of the week so that I can carry it home on the bus/train.
On the restricted/liberated spectrum, I feel strongly on the restricted side. You can't get anywhere in this city without paying, either for parking or public transport or an uber/lyft/taxi ride. I feel imprisoned within walking distance, unless I have a specific errand that justifies the price of a ride.
It's insane. I want to leave any time I want, pull up in a vast parking lot less than a hundred yards from my destination, my GPS guiding me every turn of the way, and get there in air conditioned comfort without getting all sweaty from walking everywhere. I want to be able to go to any restaurant or shop within a 20 mile radius without thinking twice about it, instead of being constrained to a few places within walking distance. I want to be able to drive home a car overflowing with groceries from any store I care to visit instead of having to spread my shopping across every day of the week so that I can carry it home on the bus/train.
On the restricted/liberated spectrum, I feel strongly on the restricted side. You can't get anywhere in this city without paying, either for parking or public transport or an uber/lyft/taxi ride. I feel imprisoned within walking distance, unless I have a specific errand that justifies the price of a ride.
As some others have mentioned, I think smartphones are helping to solve this as they get more common and the transit planning gets fast/good. But another way is just to have stable and frequent service, instead of trying to microoptimize different on-peak/off-peak/night or weekday/weekend schedules. That way people just learn that this is the service, and it always runs, problem solved.
Copenhagen has mostly converged on that: the metro, trains, and trunk bus routes now mostly run 24/7, with the same route all the time, and high enough frequency that you don't have to worry about when they'll come and how to time connections (typically 2-7 minute headways during the day, 15-20 minutes at night, 30 at night for some buses). Works well, though of course it isn't cheap to operate such a level of service. I definitely find it easier to take night buses now in particular, as they've been moving more of them to this schedule. It's something I do only occasionally so I'd never remember what the "N" night-bus routes were, but now it's easy, because the answer is that it's just the same "A" bus routes as always, not special night buses.
Copenhagen has mostly converged on that: the metro, trains, and trunk bus routes now mostly run 24/7, with the same route all the time, and high enough frequency that you don't have to worry about when they'll come and how to time connections (typically 2-7 minute headways during the day, 15-20 minutes at night, 30 at night for some buses). Works well, though of course it isn't cheap to operate such a level of service. I definitely find it easier to take night buses now in particular, as they've been moving more of them to this schedule. It's something I do only occasionally so I'd never remember what the "N" night-bus routes were, but now it's easy, because the answer is that it's just the same "A" bus routes as always, not special night buses.
> I'm completely bewildered by the changing bus/train schedules and don't understand how anyone can juggle all of those routes and times in their head to construct a path to their destination.
Two words: Google Maps.
Two words: Google Maps.
This is pretty much it. There's literally no need to memorize schedules, just plug in point A and point B.
> I'm completely bewildered by the changing bus/train schedules and don't understand how anyone can juggle all of those routes and times in their head
I think bigger cities have a journey planner website and a mobile app to go with it. For example, here's the one for London: http://tfl.gov.uk/
Also, the trunk transport lines (they can be metro, train or buses) should go every 10 minutes, or every 5 minutes, so one does not need a timetable to use them.
I think bigger cities have a journey planner website and a mobile app to go with it. For example, here's the one for London: http://tfl.gov.uk/
Also, the trunk transport lines (they can be metro, train or buses) should go every 10 minutes, or every 5 minutes, so one does not need a timetable to use them.
I grew up in a very rural, car based environment. The nearest place to eat out was a gas station that happened to make great (if unorthodox) pizza and bbq. It was about 30 minutes by car at a steady ~100kph to get there. My wife grew up in a dense urban environment with tons of public transit options. When we were first dating and visiting my parents' home, she'd get confused when everybody started talking about where to go get dinner when clearly nobody was even remotely hungry. A few visits later she finally figured it out, it took 30 minutes to an hour to get wherever we decided so you had to anticipate your hunger by that much.
Later on, I moved into the city, and though I loved some aspects of it, there were others I hated. Walking everywhere within a few blocks was great for example. We could actually think about where we wanted to eat while we were in the process of walking out the door and after we started feeling hungry! (mindblowing)
But other aspects simply sucked. Mass transit, in general, is terrible in most of the U.S. To get to the local subway (so I could get to work) from our apartment, I had 3 choices:
1) A 5 minute drive
2) A 30+ minute walk over sometimes unsafe walking areas (overpass with no sidewalk, couple other muddy/dirty no-sidewalk areas)
3) An hour long bus ride with two transfers. The buses never kept to schedule so a 20 minute wait to get on and at each transfer wasn't uncommon.
Once I got on the train, it was a pretty easy 45 minute ride with 1 transfer and then an easy 15 minute walk from the station to my office.
So say I wanted to take mass transit to get to work. I'm looking at up to ~3 hours 1 way. If everything clicks into place, it's still a minimum ~2 hour ride 1 way. These days we have google to help us find a route, and a quick check of my old route shows an approximately 1.5-2 hour commute via mass transit.
If I cut the trip to the subway down by driving, I'd either have to pay for parking (~$10/day) or get a ride from my wife.
If I walked, I'd probably get my work clothes (suit) dirty and endanger myself.
The alternative, to just drive into the office was a 1 hour drive with a $20/day parking fee.
The public transit experience sucked so bad, and consumed so much of my day, that I eventually just opted to drive myself in. I at least had the flexibility during the day to go places I couldn't walk to for lunch.
This wasn't NYC however. I've spent a few weeks here and there in NYC for work and pleasure, and almost always I just take the subway. I don't go to the outer boroughs much, and when I do I've never strayed far from a subway station -- I'm sure If I bothered to integrate the bus system into my life I'd be even happier. When I was in London, I did exactly that and the integrated system worked great (even if it was expensive). edit btw, does anybody else think it's weird NYC hasn't integrated either airport into the subway system?
I find the experience in NYC generally really good. I've done the same in London, Seoul, Barcelona and Paris and the only times I wish I had a car was when I was shopping and had to haul a bunch of groceries home on the local subway. In other cities more like where I live, with similar levels of service, I usually just use a car.
I was recently in Orlando and we decided to use the local bus system instead of a car. It was...okay. But bus service was so infrequent that if you missed your transfer you'd easily wait another 30-45 minutes for the next bus.
So to me there's kind of an uncanny valley mass transit falls into. If it's hyper dense like NYC, I think it's fantastic. The need for a car just isn't there most of the time, and it's cheap enough and the service is frequent enough that you don't end up standing around doing nothing for 30 minutes and hopefully don't have to make a half dozen transfers. There's a few cases where I really want a car, but you usually end up rethinking how your life functions and end up getting rid of lots of those (more frequent shopping and smaller groceries), but some are a still a pain (big packages). Fortunately, services like Zipcar (or just calling a cab) usually fills in those gaps.
However, most places are not ultra-large, ultra-dense first world cities and building a comparable system in those smaller cities just isn't economically feasible in general. Bus systems are too complicated compared to trams or trains, and without knowing your entire route and schedule ahead of time are hard to impossible to figure out off the cuff, and frequent stops means it takes forever to get anywhere. So even if they have the appearance of a robust mass transit system, practically they don't function in the same way a Tokyo or NYC or Paris does.
So I found it cool that was possible to live where I live, and do it without a car, but it's also possible in the sens that L.A. and NYC are within "walkable" distance from each other if you don't mind walking for 38 days nonstop.
note
today I live in a new style suburb. My house is an easy 5-10 minute walk to a pretty large array of shopping, restaurants, entertainment and services. Comparable to what you'd likely find within an easy 5-10 minute walk in most urban environments. I haven't taken my car shopping at my local grocery in about 2 months. My doctor, a movie theater, etc. are all walkable. There's a commuter bus lot in my neighborhood as well and for not too much money, I can take it into the city, it takes special lanes much of the way and turns a 2 hour drive into a 45 minute bus ride with a 20 minute easy walk.
I'm also a 20 minute drive from the nearest subway stop and the line is expanding in my direction. Hopefully in a few years it'll be a 5-10 minute drive, giving me tons of transit options.
So I kind of get the best of both worlds.
Later on, I moved into the city, and though I loved some aspects of it, there were others I hated. Walking everywhere within a few blocks was great for example. We could actually think about where we wanted to eat while we were in the process of walking out the door and after we started feeling hungry! (mindblowing)
But other aspects simply sucked. Mass transit, in general, is terrible in most of the U.S. To get to the local subway (so I could get to work) from our apartment, I had 3 choices:
1) A 5 minute drive
2) A 30+ minute walk over sometimes unsafe walking areas (overpass with no sidewalk, couple other muddy/dirty no-sidewalk areas)
3) An hour long bus ride with two transfers. The buses never kept to schedule so a 20 minute wait to get on and at each transfer wasn't uncommon.
Once I got on the train, it was a pretty easy 45 minute ride with 1 transfer and then an easy 15 minute walk from the station to my office.
So say I wanted to take mass transit to get to work. I'm looking at up to ~3 hours 1 way. If everything clicks into place, it's still a minimum ~2 hour ride 1 way. These days we have google to help us find a route, and a quick check of my old route shows an approximately 1.5-2 hour commute via mass transit.
If I cut the trip to the subway down by driving, I'd either have to pay for parking (~$10/day) or get a ride from my wife.
If I walked, I'd probably get my work clothes (suit) dirty and endanger myself.
The alternative, to just drive into the office was a 1 hour drive with a $20/day parking fee.
The public transit experience sucked so bad, and consumed so much of my day, that I eventually just opted to drive myself in. I at least had the flexibility during the day to go places I couldn't walk to for lunch.
This wasn't NYC however. I've spent a few weeks here and there in NYC for work and pleasure, and almost always I just take the subway. I don't go to the outer boroughs much, and when I do I've never strayed far from a subway station -- I'm sure If I bothered to integrate the bus system into my life I'd be even happier. When I was in London, I did exactly that and the integrated system worked great (even if it was expensive). edit btw, does anybody else think it's weird NYC hasn't integrated either airport into the subway system?
I find the experience in NYC generally really good. I've done the same in London, Seoul, Barcelona and Paris and the only times I wish I had a car was when I was shopping and had to haul a bunch of groceries home on the local subway. In other cities more like where I live, with similar levels of service, I usually just use a car.
I was recently in Orlando and we decided to use the local bus system instead of a car. It was...okay. But bus service was so infrequent that if you missed your transfer you'd easily wait another 30-45 minutes for the next bus.
So to me there's kind of an uncanny valley mass transit falls into. If it's hyper dense like NYC, I think it's fantastic. The need for a car just isn't there most of the time, and it's cheap enough and the service is frequent enough that you don't end up standing around doing nothing for 30 minutes and hopefully don't have to make a half dozen transfers. There's a few cases where I really want a car, but you usually end up rethinking how your life functions and end up getting rid of lots of those (more frequent shopping and smaller groceries), but some are a still a pain (big packages). Fortunately, services like Zipcar (or just calling a cab) usually fills in those gaps.
However, most places are not ultra-large, ultra-dense first world cities and building a comparable system in those smaller cities just isn't economically feasible in general. Bus systems are too complicated compared to trams or trains, and without knowing your entire route and schedule ahead of time are hard to impossible to figure out off the cuff, and frequent stops means it takes forever to get anywhere. So even if they have the appearance of a robust mass transit system, practically they don't function in the same way a Tokyo or NYC or Paris does.
So I found it cool that was possible to live where I live, and do it without a car, but it's also possible in the sens that L.A. and NYC are within "walkable" distance from each other if you don't mind walking for 38 days nonstop.
note
today I live in a new style suburb. My house is an easy 5-10 minute walk to a pretty large array of shopping, restaurants, entertainment and services. Comparable to what you'd likely find within an easy 5-10 minute walk in most urban environments. I haven't taken my car shopping at my local grocery in about 2 months. My doctor, a movie theater, etc. are all walkable. There's a commuter bus lot in my neighborhood as well and for not too much money, I can take it into the city, it takes special lanes much of the way and turns a 2 hour drive into a 45 minute bus ride with a 20 minute easy walk.
I'm also a 20 minute drive from the nearest subway stop and the line is expanding in my direction. Hopefully in a few years it'll be a 5-10 minute drive, giving me tons of transit options.
So I kind of get the best of both worlds.
> btw, does anybody else think it's weird NYC hasn't integrated either airport into the subway system?
For LaGuardia, it's basically NIMBYism.
JFK has the AirTrain connections to the subway and LIRR. Why that, why not just an actual subway? Bureaucratic turf expansion - the airports are owned by the Port Authority who has deep pockets and wanted to build a system under its own control.
Being a NYC lifer, I always forget that's not normal - in other cities I'm always surprised to realize when the airport is smoothly integrated into the transit system.
For LaGuardia, it's basically NIMBYism.
JFK has the AirTrain connections to the subway and LIRR. Why that, why not just an actual subway? Bureaucratic turf expansion - the airports are owned by the Port Authority who has deep pockets and wanted to build a system under its own control.
Being a NYC lifer, I always forget that's not normal - in other cities I'm always surprised to realize when the airport is smoothly integrated into the transit system.
At least if going from JFK to Manhattan, is there any point taking the subway, when the LIRR goes so much faster?
Depends on where you're going from, but the LIRR is rarely appreciably faster: express subway + AirTrain, vs. LIRR + AirTrain, both take around 60-75 minutes total from most parts of Manhattan. The only real exception is that the LIRR is faster if your starting point is right next to Penn Station; if you have to take a subway to get to the LIRR first you lose most of the advantage vs. just taking the subway the whole way. (Also, the LIRR is both less frequent and more expensive.)
And yet there are plenty of mid sized towns (even in not particularly wealthy or dense areas) with good transit in Europe (I'm sure there are in other parts of the world such as south east Asia but I am mostly familiar with Europe).
I am pretty sure Brno, Czech Republic or Brandenburg, Germany are not wealthier per capita than Orlando and somehow they managed to build a decent transit system despite being much smaller towns.
EDIT: I just checked on wikipedia and Brandenburg an der Havel has a bit over 1/3 the population density of Orlando so it's definitely not a density issue. Wiki doesn't have density figures for Brno but it seemed comparable to Orlando.
I am pretty sure Brno, Czech Republic or Brandenburg, Germany are not wealthier per capita than Orlando and somehow they managed to build a decent transit system despite being much smaller towns.
EDIT: I just checked on wikipedia and Brandenburg an der Havel has a bit over 1/3 the population density of Orlando so it's definitely not a density issue. Wiki doesn't have density figures for Brno but it seemed comparable to Orlando.
Those who feel alienated by big cities penalizing can usually get a small bike or a bycicle to still got fast and painlessly to wherever they want to go (they are still "free"), so most people should be OK with the change. It doesn't work the other way round.
I found it liberating, like a weight I didn't even know I'd been carrying had been lifted. I can't even ride transit regularly due to a disability but I felt lighter being able to walk and bike and able use transit on my (fairly common) good days to go anywhere.
As far as (4) and (5), that probably speaks to where you were in Japan. Outside of the major cities there is plenty of driving going on. Like in Hokkaido, where Sapporo has a nice transit system but outside that is a vast expanse of roads. (1) is fun, because to someone with an American sweet tooth it was easy to just suck on their candy nonstop.
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One downside I've noticed in Japan is that when the owners get older, even after stopping work on the shop they might still want to continue living in the space above, but reluctant to let anyone else use it as it is directly connected to their living space. This can result in shopping streets with many small stores that are permanently shut down.
I always assumed those closed stores were just a sign of bad economy or dwindling population and I am not completely convinced that that is the real reason, but this was explained to me as one major reason according to someone working in a project where they try to convince these building owners to let younger people use the space for their small business.
I always assumed those closed stores were just a sign of bad economy or dwindling population and I am not completely convinced that that is the real reason, but this was explained to me as one major reason according to someone working in a project where they try to convince these building owners to let younger people use the space for their small business.
If they own the shops and/or the dwellings above then I guess it's their right to retain the property even after they retire. If those younger people want to use those spaces, it's on them to make a compelling offer to acquire or rent or lease or however they want to structure a deal. Creative negotiation!
Yep. I really, really dislike cities in the US (where I'm from), but now I live in Shinjuku, and it's great! Being able to just stroll down any alley and find an incredible amount of varied restaurants and shopped stacked on top of each other is brilliant. Definitely one of the reasons I like it here.
I live in Europe, and love the bakeries within walking distance. I can walk to the movies or the opera house in a city of 300k.
Indeed. Small business is literally woven into Japanese culture :)
It's in contrast to modern development trends you're seeing in NA - seems like almost all new commercial development is in the form of large parking lots + big box brands & international franchises in the same layout configurations give or take a liquor store or restaurant or two.
I was thinking about this the other day, how wasteful these mega-lot developments are - given all the other existing areas of a city that could be utilized & improved. Instead, you rarely see new commercial investment in older areas and slowly and surely parts of a city become ignored and deteriorate. If a neighborhood is lucky, investment may someday return - but usually in the form of an artificially incentivized (ie- tax/political) effort. Things might just naturally balance out and be less wasteful if small business was as pervasive as it is in Japan; thanks in large part to their zoning system.
It's in contrast to modern development trends you're seeing in NA - seems like almost all new commercial development is in the form of large parking lots + big box brands & international franchises in the same layout configurations give or take a liquor store or restaurant or two.
I was thinking about this the other day, how wasteful these mega-lot developments are - given all the other existing areas of a city that could be utilized & improved. Instead, you rarely see new commercial investment in older areas and slowly and surely parts of a city become ignored and deteriorate. If a neighborhood is lucky, investment may someday return - but usually in the form of an artificially incentivized (ie- tax/political) effort. Things might just naturally balance out and be less wasteful if small business was as pervasive as it is in Japan; thanks in large part to their zoning system.
From the chart, I probably live in a Neighbourhood Commercial Zone which is weird for me coming from Canada. There are small factories making sheet metal or agricultural products right next door to or across the street from someone's home.
I live in a city of 400,000 people. The sheet metal factory has been in business for 65 years so I'm guessing that they were here first and as the city grew, the area was designated as a Neighbourhood Commercial Zone so they could stay but allow houses to be built since it is close to the centre.
Some other weird things in my area:
- there will be 3-4000 sq ft mansions and then down the street there are people living in basically what amounts to something a little bigger than a shack
- there is one new house near me that was literally built in a parking lot. It is surrounded on 3 sides by a parking lot and the back side faces right onto an apartment building.
- another house comes directly up against a graveyard
I live in a city of 400,000 people. The sheet metal factory has been in business for 65 years so I'm guessing that they were here first and as the city grew, the area was designated as a Neighbourhood Commercial Zone so they could stay but allow houses to be built since it is close to the centre.
Some other weird things in my area:
- there will be 3-4000 sq ft mansions and then down the street there are people living in basically what amounts to something a little bigger than a shack
- there is one new house near me that was literally built in a parking lot. It is surrounded on 3 sides by a parking lot and the back side faces right onto an apartment building.
- another house comes directly up against a graveyard
I was as giddy as a school girl when I read the phrase "euclidean zoning", but alas, it has nothing to Euclidean geometry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Euclid_v._Ambler
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Euclid_v._Ambler
It's unfortunate that zoning laws seem to keep us far away from our food and nature. The inventor of the skyscraper intended it to allow for high population density and be surrounded by nature. China's trying to do this with Sky City, but it would be hard anywhere else.
I think this is one case where the law is largely following many people's desires, at least in the USA. I used to live in a city with no zoning (Houston), and yet it was exactly the same thing: no retail or commercial anywhere near the residential area, and very low density. Why? Houstonians reinvented zoning via private-sector contract law. Since many people apparently want to live in residential-only neighborhoods—or at least have fears of what kind of noise/crime/etc. might happen if the alternative were allowed—developers cater to that by putting "residential-only" deed restrictions on new developments, so there are large tracts of land where it's prohibited to use the land for commercial activity. Usually higher-density redevelopment, or even subdividing/subletting, are also prohibited by the contracts.
Houston's minimum parking laws, setback and construction envelope laws, and other suburban style mandates make it impossible to build in the traditional city style of Europe or Japan (or the USA). There's somewhat more flexibility than some other US cities but something close to modern suburbanism is mandated in most cases.
They believe they want to live in residential-only neighborhoods? They believe they want to drive cars everywhere?
Yet, when it did come to living in those neighborhoods, would they change their mind?
Yet, when it did come to living in those neighborhoods, would they change their mind?
I mostly grew up in American suburbs, and my conclusion from that is that many people really do seem to like that lifestyle. Not everyone; some people who live in residential-only, car-oriented neighborhoods would rather not, but have various constraints keeping them there. But quite a few people moved there on purpose and like it.
Exclusive zoning sounds really odd to me. Not only because you have to travel to get to anything. It also divides the usage of the city into different zones for different times of the day. 7-17: People are in the office or industrial districts. 17-20: People are in the shopping/eating districts. 20-07: People are in the residential districts.
Even the most busy office district can become quite dead and scary at night time, would you want to walk alone there at night when nobody else is around? Who watches over your house during the day?
The problem is also when you combine these time slices with the traveling - Everybody has to travel between the different zones at exactly the same time, causing major traffic congestions.
Even the most busy office district can become quite dead and scary at night time, would you want to walk alone there at night when nobody else is around? Who watches over your house during the day?
The problem is also when you combine these time slices with the traveling - Everybody has to travel between the different zones at exactly the same time, causing major traffic congestions.
Japan has some of the most awesome architecture as house resale value is extremely poor.
For those curious - this is apparently due to laws regarding depreciation: http://www.archdaily.com/450212/why-japan-is-crazy-about-hou...
"Collectively, the write-off equates to an annual loss of 4% of Japan’s total GDP, not to mention mountains of construction waste."
"Collectively, the write-off equates to an annual loss of 4% of Japan’s total GDP, not to mention mountains of construction waste."
I'm not seeing anything in there regarding any law. My understanding of the issue is that it's simply the norm.
Expectation is houses only last 30 years, so nobody spends more to make them last beyond that.
This is an awesome article, I recommend clicking on it if just for the pictures.
sidenote: Thanks to Google and people like jcdavis I don't have to remember anything myself
sidenote: Thanks to Google and people like jcdavis I don't have to remember anything myself
This meshes with my impression that the separation here is almost nonexistent; the zones are more a matter of density than category. The lower residential zones can't have quite the same type of commerce in them, but I think most people in Tokyo live somewhere in the quasi-residential/neighborhood commercial/commercial row, so the more limiting zones aren't something you necessarily see a whole lot of.
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Zoning on a national level in the US would be horrible. I bet it can have some draw backs in Japan when you are trying to get something rezoned.
Possibly, but probably outweighed by the flexible nature of the zoning system, where more is allowed for a given zoning classification and there are fewer classifications. i.e. developers probably end up dealing with the zoning bureaucracy and politics less than they would in the US.
Japan is notorious for bureaucracy. Just entering a government center and asking a simple question is sometimes enough to start a (figurative) three-ring circus.
See Ikiru by Kurosawa for an admittedly fictional and old example.
It's worth nothing that bigger cities in most first world countries generally have more expensive housing, rent or buy. Wages rise in bigger cities, too, but not as fast as housing prices.
Sometimes we're told that it's a natural result of city living, sometimes we're told that without high rise apartment density, it's inevitable. Tokyo has 35 MM people, almost double the second largest first world city (Seoul, 21 MM), and has housing prices to income ratios far lower than London, New York, or Los Angeles. [0]
Tokyo has very few high rises, medium density (150/hectare or 40k/mi^2)[1], low traffic, quiet streets, and mostly single family residential homes. What it doesn't have is low density suburbs (everyplace is medium density), mandatory free parking, or a street grid that serves much car traffic.
There are eight first world cities over 10MM people and their housing to income ratios roughly run like this:
(Middle class people can easily buy homes) Osaka/Kyoto Seoul Mexico City Tokyo (Things start to get really expensive) Paris Los Angeles London New York (Insanely expensive)
Japanese zoning has a lot to be proud of. If Nagoya were a smidgen larger, Japan would dominate the liveable and affordable part of the list even more.
[0]http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/japan-shows-the-way-to-affor...
[1] SF is about 70/ha incl. parks, Manhattan 260/ha, Paris (20 arrondissements) 210/ha
Sometimes we're told that it's a natural result of city living, sometimes we're told that without high rise apartment density, it's inevitable. Tokyo has 35 MM people, almost double the second largest first world city (Seoul, 21 MM), and has housing prices to income ratios far lower than London, New York, or Los Angeles. [0]
Tokyo has very few high rises, medium density (150/hectare or 40k/mi^2)[1], low traffic, quiet streets, and mostly single family residential homes. What it doesn't have is low density suburbs (everyplace is medium density), mandatory free parking, or a street grid that serves much car traffic.
There are eight first world cities over 10MM people and their housing to income ratios roughly run like this:
(Middle class people can easily buy homes) Osaka/Kyoto Seoul Mexico City Tokyo (Things start to get really expensive) Paris Los Angeles London New York (Insanely expensive)
Japanese zoning has a lot to be proud of. If Nagoya were a smidgen larger, Japan would dominate the liveable and affordable part of the list even more.
[0]http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/japan-shows-the-way-to-affor...
[1] SF is about 70/ha incl. parks, Manhattan 260/ha, Paris (20 arrondissements) 210/ha
> Wages rise in bigger cities, too, but not as fast as housing prices.
If you want to lower housing prices, get rid of rent control policies and ease up on the zoning. Developers will create more housing units and you'll see a substantial increase in supply, leading to a lowering of the price level.
The problem is that those already living in the city don't want this. They are against new development and they're all for rent control. They want to continue paying artificially low prices, while keeping anyone else who may want to live there out. Just a tad bit selfish.
If you want to lower housing prices, get rid of rent control policies and ease up on the zoning. Developers will create more housing units and you'll see a substantial increase in supply, leading to a lowering of the price level.
The problem is that those already living in the city don't want this. They are against new development and they're all for rent control. They want to continue paying artificially low prices, while keeping anyone else who may want to live there out. Just a tad bit selfish.
this is false and boston proved it
More information please, for those of us who aren't Bostonians?
NYT article comparing Boston post-rent-control and New York City: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/15/nyregion/when-rent-control...
One of the big complaints about "increasing rents" is more of the matter that low-income rental stock is almost never built, whereas luxury apartments are built constantly (though they have to provide a number of low-income units that are the same quality as everything else in the building). The low-income stock still exists, it's just the most sought after rental stock in the Boston market.
One of the big complaints about "increasing rents" is more of the matter that low-income rental stock is almost never built, whereas luxury apartments are built constantly (though they have to provide a number of low-income units that are the same quality as everything else in the building). The low-income stock still exists, it's just the most sought after rental stock in the Boston market.
I wish folks who got a B in Econ 101 would quit thinking that class explained all economics everywhere.
bigger cities in most first world countries generally have more expensive housing
This is partly because they're innately more desirable locations -- people are willing to pay more to live in a city with major sports teams, museums, opera houses, universities, shopping centers, etc.
housing prices to income ratios
The most recent statistics I've seen show Vancouver as having the highest housing price to income ratio; while Vancouver's median housing price is relatively modest (closer to Santa Barbara than San Francisco or San Jose), Vancouver's median household income is quite low (around the same as Minneapolis or Baltimore).
Interestingly, if you look at Vancouver's recent housing price trends, you'll see two very different trends: Prices of detached houses have roughly doubled in the past 8 years, while prices of condos have barely kept up with inflation. This makes perfect sense in terms of geography: There is no more land available for detached houses in Vancouver, but condo construction is booming (a few years ago Vancouver had more units of condos under construction than New York).
This is partly because they're innately more desirable locations -- people are willing to pay more to live in a city with major sports teams, museums, opera houses, universities, shopping centers, etc.
housing prices to income ratios
The most recent statistics I've seen show Vancouver as having the highest housing price to income ratio; while Vancouver's median housing price is relatively modest (closer to Santa Barbara than San Francisco or San Jose), Vancouver's median household income is quite low (around the same as Minneapolis or Baltimore).
Interestingly, if you look at Vancouver's recent housing price trends, you'll see two very different trends: Prices of detached houses have roughly doubled in the past 8 years, while prices of condos have barely kept up with inflation. This makes perfect sense in terms of geography: There is no more land available for detached houses in Vancouver, but condo construction is booming (a few years ago Vancouver had more units of condos under construction than New York).
Vancouver is a distorted market...Any market that is inudated with Chinese speculators is.
I don't buy the foreign ownership theory behind Vancouver property prices [1]. My personal theory is that the large Chinese-Canadian population in Vancouver forms most of the demand for overpriced detached homes. Within my family at least, there seems to be an irrational desire to own a home despite renting being a better financial decision.
[1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/scant-e...
[1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/scant-e...
They might be resident in Vancouver, sure, but the money being used to buy the house is coming from China, often gray money that is responsible for huge distortions in the Chinese market. And they'll go high end, which is why condos are more immune to this. It's not just Vancouver, but you see this in some parts of San francisco and Seattle (well, Bellevue) also.
I'm not completely sure it's fair to compare Tokyo or Osaka to the like of Paris. There are two major differences that impact prices:
- France population is increasing steadily, while Japanese population is in for a dive. You cannot reasonably expect land prices to soar in Japan like they will in Paris, since going forward there will be less and less people sharing said land.
- Earthquakes (and the lack thereof in France). In France anything less than 50 years old is considered new. In Japan a house over 30 years old has negative value, and such properties are priced as follows: price of land minus price of house destruction/removal.
If you are sitting on a lot of cash you simply cannot just buy anything in Tokyo or Osaka and wait for prices to rise. So you have much less speculative investments to drive prices up.
- France population is increasing steadily, while Japanese population is in for a dive. You cannot reasonably expect land prices to soar in Japan like they will in Paris, since going forward there will be less and less people sharing said land.
- Earthquakes (and the lack thereof in France). In France anything less than 50 years old is considered new. In Japan a house over 30 years old has negative value, and such properties are priced as follows: price of land minus price of house destruction/removal.
If you are sitting on a lot of cash you simply cannot just buy anything in Tokyo or Osaka and wait for prices to rise. So you have much less speculative investments to drive prices up.
the waiting for prices to go up is a consequence of zoning laws. There's pretty much a fixed supply of housing in Paris and a rising population, so people just sit on it.
The population point isn't super relevant because people are still moving into Tokyo (for work or school mainly), so Tokyo's actually growing _faster_ than Paris is (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+Tokyo+ove...)
The big difference being that almost nowhere in the Tokyo metropolitan area has low-density buildings (compared to people in nicer suburbs on the outskirts of paris with huge housing.)
The fact that there are so many old buildings in Paris is also a consequence of making things hard to build in Paris. There's more than enough demand to make obscene amounts of money with a decent sized apartment complex in downtown Paris (if you could build it). It's not like Tokyo is falling over every 10 years to earthquakes.
One thing is that houses in some Tokyo suburbs are built like crap, so old houses are falling apart (not building many houses out of stone). I think more recent housing is built more sturdily (not sure though)
Anyways, the comparaison is fair, because the prime difference is what we're talking about : Zoning laws. There is nothing magical about Paris which makes it impossible to use the same techniques to solve this problem.
The population point isn't super relevant because people are still moving into Tokyo (for work or school mainly), so Tokyo's actually growing _faster_ than Paris is (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+Tokyo+ove...)
The big difference being that almost nowhere in the Tokyo metropolitan area has low-density buildings (compared to people in nicer suburbs on the outskirts of paris with huge housing.)
The fact that there are so many old buildings in Paris is also a consequence of making things hard to build in Paris. There's more than enough demand to make obscene amounts of money with a decent sized apartment complex in downtown Paris (if you could build it). It's not like Tokyo is falling over every 10 years to earthquakes.
One thing is that houses in some Tokyo suburbs are built like crap, so old houses are falling apart (not building many houses out of stone). I think more recent housing is built more sturdily (not sure though)
Anyways, the comparaison is fair, because the prime difference is what we're talking about : Zoning laws. There is nothing magical about Paris which makes it impossible to use the same techniques to solve this problem.
I see a lot of advertising for "earthquake proof" tech to reduce the amount of shaking in houses. I wonder if this 30+ years = worthless thinking in Japan will continue, or if it is just for this generation of houses.
> Tokyo has 35 MM people, almost double the second largest first world city (Seoul, 21 MM), and has housing prices to income ratios far lower than London, New York, or Los Angeles.
What about house size? I looked into the original study linked there [1], and it does have a section about house size, but I couldn't figure out if and how they control for size when calculating the median house price.
If they don't control for size, then it's not very surprising that Tokyo scores better than the US cities, given that the median Tokyo house is about half the size of the median US house.
[1] http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
What about house size? I looked into the original study linked there [1], and it does have a section about house size, but I couldn't figure out if and how they control for size when calculating the median house price.
If they don't control for size, then it's not very surprising that Tokyo scores better than the US cities, given that the median Tokyo house is about half the size of the median US house.
[1] http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
As always comparing cities is problematic as there is no good way to determine what a city's boundaries are. The economic and transport autonomy/independence of outer areas of each 'city' varies wildly (as well as density). Some of these cities will include vast areas which may be comparable to, but excluded from the other.
Zoning alone doesnt solve affordability though (SF is probably the outlier in this case as growth has been constrained for so long). Much of it is down to economic issues and policy. In Japan prices fell drastically from the boom due to large scale debt restructuring which has also led to a decade of stagflation.
Zoning alone doesnt solve affordability though (SF is probably the outlier in this case as growth has been constrained for so long). Much of it is down to economic issues and policy. In Japan prices fell drastically from the boom due to large scale debt restructuring which has also led to a decade of stagflation.
In the US context, boundaries matter because there is a steep density gradient from center to suburb. There is a technique called weighted perceived density to fix the difference and make cities comparable. [0,1]
Tokyo, Osaka, Mexico City, Seoul, and (to a lesser extent) Paris don't have steep gradients of density from center to edge and have better defined natural boundaries between urban and rural.
The blending in the USA edge cities is the result of heroic subsidy levels and Stalinist command and control zoning and minimum free parking mandate policies. It is not natural or compatible with free markets.
The areas I quoted in the USA (NY County, NY and SF County, CA) are very specific and not at all fuzzy.
[0] http://austinzoning.typepad.com/austincontrarian/2008/03/per... [1] http://www.uctc.net/access/37/access37_sprawl.shtml
Tokyo, Osaka, Mexico City, Seoul, and (to a lesser extent) Paris don't have steep gradients of density from center to edge and have better defined natural boundaries between urban and rural.
The blending in the USA edge cities is the result of heroic subsidy levels and Stalinist command and control zoning and minimum free parking mandate policies. It is not natural or compatible with free markets.
The areas I quoted in the USA (NY County, NY and SF County, CA) are very specific and not at all fuzzy.
[0] http://austinzoning.typepad.com/austincontrarian/2008/03/per... [1] http://www.uctc.net/access/37/access37_sprawl.shtml
[deleted]
- I walk past two or three different convenience stores on my 8 minute walk to the train even though my neighborhood mostly looks like it's residential.
- All of the buildings around me are either very large single-family homes, or medium sized 3 floor multi-unit apartments. Almost nothing higher than 3 stories. There is also a school and an embassy on my block.
- The very large estate owned by a single family that has lived there for over 30 years that was next to my building was torn down last year. They are constructing an apartment building. That single lot will go from 1 unit to 26 units. Most units are single bedroom and will not have a parking spot and will be priced from about $500,000 up to $1.5M for some of the larger ones. I think there will be 10-15 parking spots in the basement underground.
- A guy down the street from me has set up a vegetable shop in front of his house. He puts out locally obtained vegetables with prices and you take what you want and drop the money in a slot in a cardboard box he has in his open window. People running little side-businesses like this out of their apartments seems pretty common.
- Buildings tend to have walls that are built right up to the street edge forming a 'corridor' feel.
- Streets are so narrow when I first got here I couldn't believe they were 2 way streets. It might take cars 10-20 seconds to pass each other going the opposite way because of negotiating the walls.
- It's extremely quiet and peaceful (except for the construction next door)