This spawned a very large thread, so I wasn’t sure where to respond, but it is shocking to me how most of the supporters of this in the comments make a fundamental error: they presuppose that people are going to write the game to begin with, no matter what the change in incentives is.
It would be like me making a law that said “every time you purchase a game, you must pay at least $100 for it,” and then proceed to explain how the quality of all games will go up, and that it will help the small Indy developers because now they get to multiply their guaranteed; existing player base by $100!
All of the arguments are: “well yes, this ight change the way you have to architect the game, and yes this might involve dictating what specific technologies and vendors you can or can’t use, and yes, this might increase costs, but…” and then go on to say why that is completely reasonable.
If someone made an equivalent law for websites: “any website you publish and sell access to must be made available, in perpetuity, to anyone who has ever used it” you would not get the open source utopia people seem to think, where everything is just as great, AND every individual and company on the planet took the extra time to ensure that they are compliant, regardless of the change in incentives.
I understand wanting to prevent someone from “artificially bricking” an app, but this vaguely-worded law isn’t it.
Increasingly, I think that an agent (and I) would work much better in a malleable, notebook-like, inspectable program, than it would with its current file-based “edit and re-run” primitives.
“Marimo pair” (built into their notebook-like primitive) is an attempt at this. And they have program introspection tools built in.
I also think that Glamorous Toolkit (https://gtoolkit.com/)
might be a similar live environment, but I haven’t investigated it too much other than reading about it.
Is anyone else familiar with “modern” attempts at this?
So well said. I appreciate you articulating this. I am relieved to see that there are others on here who understand the unbelievable privileges we have at this moment in time.
The demagogues have been shockingly effective at telling people that the size of the pie is fixed, the game is rigged, and the only way to get a piece of that limited pie is to steal it. And the people that are most susceptible to this message are the ones that live in the countries that people are literally dying to get in to.
Your phrase “extract” betrays a fundamental disagreement with what Paul is saying. (Externalities does so again) It assumes a zero-sum game where the job is to shift money from one person to another. Value, and thus money/wealth can be created. Literally.
You are saying, in different words, that no one can do it “honestly”. He is saying one can.
I'm really sorry to hear that, and I wish you and the rest of the team luck. When you first came out, I thought the approach was really solid - particularly with regards to structured inputs and outputs.
I was never sentenced to the Gulag, but based on what little I know, it's pretty different than one these people are experiencing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
I wanted to make its VM/machine our default secure agent sandbox, but I couldn’t figure out how to isolate this VM from the host properly. This thread prompted me to find the issue though, and I saw this was recently implemented!
https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/169
True, but I actually had no idea that it was the soft parts rather than the hard parts that had been fossilized. (I haven’t verified it yet.) Either way, it didn’t read like a bad faith interpretation/comment.
I appreciate it. That's my belief as well. Very easy to write a post like, "Just use multiple clouds!" or to claim to have done it with a small project. But it's hard for me to imagine the benefits outweighing the extremely massive complexity costs at a certain scale.
I’ve seen a few smug “all your eggs in one basket” comments here.
I’m aware of some companies hosting their own metal and infra, but I’m not aware of large companies mitigating risk by hosting on separate cloud providers as a fallback mechanism. We might disagree with cloud provider choice, or think they should have been hosting their own metal, but that’s still an “all your eggs in one basket” choice, right?
Heck, they might even have multi-region fallback with GCP, but if GCP bans your account, that doesn’t matter.
Are there good examples of running a company of railway’s size so redundantly that their host could nuke one of their accounts and they’d just keep on trucking?
Fascinating! Do you have a way to detect/flag malicious stuff by any chance? (Seems like a good vector for prompt injection, but maybe no more than any other internet site?)
I was literally was just looking at GitHub dataset availability and musing on this. A star from karpathy is worth a lot more than a star from open_claw_dood that just created his account 5 min ago.
In general, I’ve been dissatisfied with GitHub’s code search. It would be nice to see innovation here.
Yes…mistakes are inevitable, and I get not expecting or demanding perfection. But the subtext here is that this is unlikely to be a mistake, and much more likely to be fraud.
There are incentives for these spreadsheets having the values that they do, and also there is no conceivable way that the values are correct, and on top of that, the most likely ways to get these values are to copy and paste large amounts of numbers, and even perturb some of them manually.
If you see this in accounting,(where there are also mistakes), it’s definitely fraud. (Awww man - we accidentally inflated our revenue and profit to meet expectations by accidentally duplicating numerous revenue lines and no one internally caught it! Dang interns!)
If you see it in science, you ask the authors about it and they shrug and mumble a semi plausible explanation if you’re lucky? I can totally imagine a lab tech or grad student making a large copy paste mistake. I can’t imagine them making a series of them in such a way that it bolsters or proves the author’s claim AND goes completely undetected by everyone involved.