Ask HN: Where would you move your family to?
40 comments
I might be biased being Swiss, albeit from the German speaking part, but the French part of Switzerland seems like perfect fit for your requirements. You both speak French, your kids will get high quality education for free and eventually access to two of the world leading Universities (no getting in debt to get an education, but that will hold for the most of Europe, too). There's lots of natural beauty, especially Lausanne is a wonderful city and Geneva is consistently ranked amongst the top liveable cities. Compared to France, which was also mentioned here and is definitely also a great place to raise children, it has lower crime rate and way higher salaries.
I lived in Switzerland (French part) for a little while. Beautiful country, so if you enjoy spending time outdoors it's a big plus.
The only downsides of living there was the cost of living, and this may have just been my personal experience but I found it harder to make friends there then other places I've lived.
The friends part I admit I have heard many times and can completely understand. Cost of living however is offset by the high salaries. Take home pay is one of the highest in the world, definitely you will have hard time finding comparative salaries in Europe, except maybe Luxemburg, where they also speak French, but it's even smaller and hence less job opportunities than Switzerland.
Do you want to stay in the US? Bay Area?
The south bay is more "family friendly" than SF is, as are some of the cities in both Marin county and the East bay. There are micro climates and there are great variations between city cultures.
That said, if you are intentional about how you want to raise your children, what do you intend? Self reliance? Well connected socially? Depth of understanding about the world? Self motivated?
Something we thought about alot when we had our children was what kind of values we wanted our children to share, what sort of things they would experience to help cement those values in practice, and give them tools for evaluating their impact (positive and negative) on the world around them. Its a lot of work but in our case it worked out well.
The thing about kids is that they don't know anything but what they have experienced so no matter where you go or how they are raised they will consider that normal. Which is a long way of saying they aren't going to come back later and say "Gee, these choices really ruined my life."
The south bay is more "family friendly" than SF is, as are some of the cities in both Marin county and the East bay. There are micro climates and there are great variations between city cultures.
That said, if you are intentional about how you want to raise your children, what do you intend? Self reliance? Well connected socially? Depth of understanding about the world? Self motivated?
Something we thought about alot when we had our children was what kind of values we wanted our children to share, what sort of things they would experience to help cement those values in practice, and give them tools for evaluating their impact (positive and negative) on the world around them. Its a lot of work but in our case it worked out well.
The thing about kids is that they don't know anything but what they have experienced so no matter where you go or how they are raised they will consider that normal. Which is a long way of saying they aren't going to come back later and say "Gee, these choices really ruined my life."
We're looking to leave the state of California, not relocate within it. Staying in the US is not a requirement.
We feel like we can be intentional about how we raise our kids regardless of where we are. Moving is as much about us, as it is about our future kids. That said, places with entrenched or legalized discrimination and human rights violations are off the table.
We feel like we can be intentional about how we raise our kids regardless of where we are. Moving is as much about us, as it is about our future kids. That said, places with entrenched or legalized discrimination and human rights violations are off the table.
Dublin, Ireland?
"getting value for our tax dollars" ... that's NOT any eu country.
Self-employment tax in Poland is just 19%. With a US (remote) salary you're basically living like a king. On the downside, the language is not the easiest to learn I hear.
> With a US (remote) salary you're basically living like a king
Why do you think so? Do you live like a king?
From my experience, you'll live normal. It's not that US salaries are high, it's Polish (or any other eastern and some western European) salaries are extremely low.
Why do you think so? Do you live like a king?
From my experience, you'll live normal. It's not that US salaries are high, it's Polish (or any other eastern and some western European) salaries are extremely low.
Hmm maybe not like a king then, but certainly better than your US-based colleagues (esp. if the company is located in for example NYC or SF, where they need to spend a lot on taxes and housing).
My fiance and I moved from the Bay Area to Asheville, North Carolina last year and could not be happier. The only checkmark missing is decent transportation outside of cars.
* https://www.google.com/search?q=asheville+downtown&tbm=isch
* https://www.google.com/search?q=asheville+autumn+leaves&tbm=ischPlano, Texas. It is a great place to raise a family. Excellent schools. Diverse city. Affordable real estate. About 20 minutes north of Dallas. Low crime. Voted safest city in the U.S. twice. Has plenty of hiking and biking trails. Texas does get hot in the summer.
I live in Sydney. Look the Switzerland suggestion sounds excellent, but I will give you the sales pitch for Sydney.
The main things are the weather - hot summers and cool winters (cold enough for a break from the summer, but not too cold). Over a dozen awesome beaches within a short drive from the city. You could easily live near a beach if you wanted to.
There is a big focus on outdoor activity, great facilities for kids - unbelievable number of parks, daycare, sport activities. With so much summer time - get a garden and you can get them out of the house for 8 months of the year.
Education seems good. Healthcare is excellent. 20 days annual leave and 10 days sick leave is mandatory. So is superannuation (pension) so you are saving for the future. Most companies don't expect you to do any unpaid overtime either.
There is a reasonably good tech scene here, and I have no doubt you would find a good job. There is a bit of a start up scene around Fishburners. It is also home to a few of the big ones like Atlassian, Freelance, Campaign Monitor. There is also a ThoughtWorks office, and plenty of banks and finance jobs. Lots of meetups and things like that as you would expect.
People are friendly here, as a parent you would love it because other parents will talk to you and be friendly and your child will make friends easily. It is that kind of culture. I imagine the US is similar but I have not experienced it.
The downsides - you won't earn the top $ you would get in SF, London or NY. You wont get to use French much. House prices are high compared to wages, but for an IT worker owning a house with some outdoor space within 1 hour of the city is not out of the question. You probably already have savings anyway which would make this easier.
The main things are the weather - hot summers and cool winters (cold enough for a break from the summer, but not too cold). Over a dozen awesome beaches within a short drive from the city. You could easily live near a beach if you wanted to.
There is a big focus on outdoor activity, great facilities for kids - unbelievable number of parks, daycare, sport activities. With so much summer time - get a garden and you can get them out of the house for 8 months of the year.
Education seems good. Healthcare is excellent. 20 days annual leave and 10 days sick leave is mandatory. So is superannuation (pension) so you are saving for the future. Most companies don't expect you to do any unpaid overtime either.
There is a reasonably good tech scene here, and I have no doubt you would find a good job. There is a bit of a start up scene around Fishburners. It is also home to a few of the big ones like Atlassian, Freelance, Campaign Monitor. There is also a ThoughtWorks office, and plenty of banks and finance jobs. Lots of meetups and things like that as you would expect.
People are friendly here, as a parent you would love it because other parents will talk to you and be friendly and your child will make friends easily. It is that kind of culture. I imagine the US is similar but I have not experienced it.
The downsides - you won't earn the top $ you would get in SF, London or NY. You wont get to use French much. House prices are high compared to wages, but for an IT worker owning a house with some outdoor space within 1 hour of the city is not out of the question. You probably already have savings anyway which would make this easier.
You might like Vancouver. It is always ranked as one of the best cities to live in, and it definitely has the natural beauty you're looking for.
Since you both speak French, Montreal could be an option.
You'll earn less, you won't have much for your tax dollars, and you'll need to get used to the weather.
However, it's safer than San Francisco, housing is cheaper, and seasons are very real.
You'll earn less, you won't have much for your tax dollars, and you'll need to get used to the weather.
However, it's safer than San Francisco, housing is cheaper, and seasons are very real.
Montreal winters are brutal though. I've been in Montreal during spring after the thaws and people kinda go wild. I asked why and one person replied, "Have you been through a Montreal winter?"
Nothing's ever a perfect fit, but based on your preferences I'd look at Boulder, Colorado.
I've got a friend who moved with his young children a couple years ago and seems to love it - should you want an introduction, email me.
I've got a friend who moved with his young children a couple years ago and seems to love it - should you want an introduction, email me.
Austin, SLC, Denver, Boulder, Research Triangle North Carolina all seem like good options.
Realistically you can probably pick a nice suburb of almost any top 25 population city in the country and get what you're looking for.
Realistically you can probably pick a nice suburb of almost any top 25 population city in the country and get what you're looking for.
I would recommend Colorado. Denver or Boulder. Both places are chill, have a tech industry. I would argue that they have better weather than SF. The geography is incredibly beautiful.
Minneapolis is wonderful. Great public infrastructure (parks, trans, etc). Amazing public education (Minnetonka, Edina, Plymouth, Wayzata). Tons of jobs in tech / jobs in general (3.8%) http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laulrgma.htm. Food scene is incredible and housing is (relatively) affordable.
You speak French? What are you doing living in the States? Go to France. Arguably one of the best countries in the world for social insurance and benefits.
It's on our list. My wife and I both enjoyed reading "Bringing Up Bebe". Any personal experiences on relocating and living there would be appreciated.
Salt Lake City. Yes it's kind of boring, but boring can be nice. Great school, breathtaking mountains, strong sense of community. A long running joke about the city is that it is impossible to get people to relocate there, and later it becomes impossible to get them to leave.
Definitely not for everyone, but if not being able to buy liquor on Sunday does not upset you it may be worth a look.
Anywhere in southern Sweden. Low crime, good schools, amazing scenery, a government that works, and great access to all of Europe.
Gonna chime in here on Sweden -- it is not as utopian as it might project itself to be. Like many other in countries across Europe there is growing anti-immigration sentiment, and that is certainly true in the South. Malmö has quite a few issues with a growing refugee population, violence, and anti-semitism.
"A government that works" is relative. You can be waiting months on your personnummer (Social security number), which will make it much more difficult to get healthcare, banking, or many other services -- even an apartment. The system works, but it mainly only works for those who were born into it.
Problem is that the Swedish migration board (Immigration) is basically setup only to handle refugees. They are not well-equipped to deal with highly trained professionals.
Also, though most people speak English, your lack of Swedish will be a hinderance to making friends and "integrating." Furthermore, as neither of you are Swedish, there is no one to "on-board" you into a community. That will make this only harder and more isolating.
"A government that works" is relative. You can be waiting months on your personnummer (Social security number), which will make it much more difficult to get healthcare, banking, or many other services -- even an apartment. The system works, but it mainly only works for those who were born into it.
Problem is that the Swedish migration board (Immigration) is basically setup only to handle refugees. They are not well-equipped to deal with highly trained professionals.
Also, though most people speak English, your lack of Swedish will be a hinderance to making friends and "integrating." Furthermore, as neither of you are Swedish, there is no one to "on-board" you into a community. That will make this only harder and more isolating.
And a horrible climate in winter. If you're used to California weather, I wouldn't move to Sweden. It's like -20 in winter (celcius), plus it gets dark around 4 if you're lucky.
Move to Spain. Probably the best place on earth life/quality wise. Easy to find a tech job (in e.g. Barcelona). Pay is lower of course.
Move to Spain. Probably the best place on earth life/quality wise. Easy to find a tech job (in e.g. Barcelona). Pay is lower of course.
I've lived and worked in both Spain and Sweden in both Winter and Summer, and hands down I prefer Sweden. I love both seasons in Sweden, and hate the Summer in Spain.
Personal preferences, I guess.
Personal preferences, I guess.
Apart from the weather, is there any other reason you would prefer Sweden over Spain?
There's every chance I have a better personal cultural fit with the Swedes, but that's very much a personal thing. In my experience English is more widely spoken in Sweden than in Spain, which also makes it easier for me. I think the economy in Sweden is stronger.
Which part of Spain did you live in? Was it Catalonia/Barcelona?
Mostly Valencia, with some time in Tarragona, Palma, and Cartagena. Mostly I was working there, but I knew I'd be there for some time, so I integrated as quickly as possible.
Victoria BC.
Beautiful, Low Crime, Easy Going, Close to Vancouver and Seattle, Smaller City. Canada! Awesome place to raise kids or retire.
Beautiful, Low Crime, Easy Going, Close to Vancouver and Seattle, Smaller City. Canada! Awesome place to raise kids or retire.
If you can work remotely and can stomach the process of relocating then you can really choose anywhere. On my list are grand cayman, Lisbon, Tokyo, Seattle. Being from NYC, I don't know if I can recommend a small town.
I recently moved from NYC to Seattle. After years of saying I would never leave the city, I love it here. It is a lot smaller than NY but there is still plenty to do and the food here is pretty great.
No pizza or bagels though :-(.
No pizza or bagels though :-(.
I would second Denver or really anywhere in Colorado.
My wife and I live in MN and we love it. The cold isn't so bad and there are plenty of opportunities. Look at Duluth in MN.
e-stonia would like you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxwxPnbXf7I
I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions! Much appreciated; we've got some ideas for places we hadn't thought of before.
Our situation is as follows: * We're both in our thirties and have good careers, but not at any single company. We're respected enough and have deep enough professional networks that we could quit our jobs and have new (probably better) ones by end-of-day.
* We're in roles that could allow for remote work. While having a good local economy is nice, I'm quickly realizing that I don't have to physically be in San Francisco any more.
* My wife hasn't decided if she will return to work after taking maternity leave. I haven't decided if I will return to work after taking paternity leave. We do well, but we're not rich, so one of us needs to work.
* Neither of us has any family in the Bay Area. We're willing to move for a better life. We both speak French and English, and my wife speaks Portuguese, too.
* We've owned our current condo in San Francisco for a bit now, so we could either sell it or rent it out and do very well. We don't feel like SF real estate is squeezing us out by any means. If anything, our San Francisco real estate will probably be a means for our escape.
* Ideally we're looking for someplace that has low crime, good schools, doesn't feel like a rat race, some natural geographic beauty (we like taking hikes and walks), a government that works and makes us feel like we're getting value for our tax dollars, decent transportation options outside of cars, low pollution, and good weather. The last one is qualitative so I'll just say that we're willing to trade San Francisco's perpetual cool mist feel for a place that's hotter and/or colder but actually has real seasons.
So, where should we move to and why?