UploadVR sued over ‘rampant’ sexual behavior in workplace, wrongful termination(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
UploadVR sued over ‘rampant’ sexual behavior in workplace, wrongful termination
https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/15/uploadvr-sued-over-rampant-sexual-behavior-in-the-workplace-and-wrongful-termination/
176 comments
It's funny you mention people from an older generation. My mother worked as a secretary at a law firm in the UK in the 1960s, where she met my father. When I mentioned to her that "60% of women in tech reported unwanted sexual advances" [1], she yawned (quite literally) and said, "Is that all?" It seems hard to imagine that this fiasco, Magic Leap from last week, Uber, etc, might actually be construed as "progress", but, well...
[1] per https://www.elephantinthevalley.com
[1] per https://www.elephantinthevalley.com
Progress is that these things now make news. Because that's what's hopefully going to change the world. First there's publicity, then there's awareness, then there's change.
I wouldn't be surprised if a woman of average and above attractiveness don't get unwanted sexual advances every month, regardless of the industry, unless it is clearly indicated that they are married.
In that case the 60% figure seems spot on. Of course the issue here is what we define as a sexual advance. It wouldn't surprise me if some propositions to a date were miscategorized as sexual advances. Not that it makes the others OK.
Here's a question for you people directly in tech: do you think the other industries are better or worse in this regard? Has there been any studies or polls or anything even remotely scientific to study this?
In that case the 60% figure seems spot on. Of course the issue here is what we define as a sexual advance. It wouldn't surprise me if some propositions to a date were miscategorized as sexual advances. Not that it makes the others OK.
Here's a question for you people directly in tech: do you think the other industries are better or worse in this regard? Has there been any studies or polls or anything even remotely scientific to study this?
I was writing exactly the same thing. I can't understand how this is even possible.
But fuck. How fuck can you have a sex room in the office ? How can someone have sex in the office ?
I'm seriously speechless.
But fuck. How fuck can you have a sex room in the office ? How can someone have sex in the office ?
I'm seriously speechless.
Yeah it doesn't make sense makes it even more suspect. It's 2017 everyone knows this is a lawsuit waiting to happen and for a company to open themselves up to a lawsuit that they would HAVE to know is going to be coming seems suspect.
I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other but if any company behaves like this the deserve to be sued out of business and should be fined for stupidity.
I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other but if any company behaves like this the deserve to be sued out of business and should be fined for stupidity.
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I just can't fathom how anyone working there could think this is acceptable. And why has it even been allowed to continue this long before without someone telling them to knock it off.
Sex in the workplace is far more common then you think.
People can have sex if they want to(in theory no, on the workplace shouldn't be allowed so openly). BUT company that offer a bed/room for sex ? this seems to be too much.
It's a workplace, not a frat house.
It's a workplace, not a frat house.
Might some see this as a healthy, progressive, sex-positive evolution of the modern workplace?
Should they get rid of the ping pong table too?
This is the logical consequence of Peter Thiel's idea that you put bright (but often socially inept) high-school nerds directly into founding roles in companies. You end up with socially inept and socially inappropriate bosses who were never forced to conform to society's norms.
EDIT: I am not implying that Peter Thiel would condone this behavior.
EDIT: I am not implying that Peter Thiel would condone this behavior.
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I feel I have to defend myself here to some extent (being a now former Thiel Fellow), but I can fairly safely say that the ~20 other Thiel Fellows that I would call "friends" would never do anything close to this at their companies. While there are now over 120 fellows and I do not know them all, I bet there is one or at most a small handful that could fit your description, but I would say that of any group of similar size that you were to pick from a university.
I would definitely say I am socially awkward/inept, but I don't think that necessarily correlates with being socially maladapted/unaware of societies norms. The sort of "bro" culture that exemplifies UploadVR's, Uber, and many other "hot" tech companies right now is the culture that myself and most other high-school nerds that I knew rejected... we were not the popular kids that drank, had sex, and partied. I think all of this is a symptom of technology being a much more attractive jobspace for the general public (which includes a lot of "bros") compared to just for "nerds" that it was decades ago, and your conclusion is the exact opposite of this.
Granted it is an anecdote with a relatively small sample size, but I have not seen this sort of behavior/ideas from anyone who never went to college or dropped out, but I see it from plenty of folks in their late 20s/early 30s that never grew up from their college fraternity experiences.
I would definitely say I am socially awkward/inept, but I don't think that necessarily correlates with being socially maladapted/unaware of societies norms. The sort of "bro" culture that exemplifies UploadVR's, Uber, and many other "hot" tech companies right now is the culture that myself and most other high-school nerds that I knew rejected... we were not the popular kids that drank, had sex, and partied. I think all of this is a symptom of technology being a much more attractive jobspace for the general public (which includes a lot of "bros") compared to just for "nerds" that it was decades ago, and your conclusion is the exact opposite of this.
Granted it is an anecdote with a relatively small sample size, but I have not seen this sort of behavior/ideas from anyone who never went to college or dropped out, but I see it from plenty of folks in their late 20s/early 30s that never grew up from their college fraternity experiences.
I shouldn't have type-cast an entire group. Clearly you can be socially inept and yet be appropriate (I was more like that too). But I also started as an employee in smallish companies and moved to founding them.
I should also note that some never seem to "grow up" - appropriateness simply eludes them permanently. If you look at Uber you have a founder that could, in theory, be a grandfather but doesn't seem to have a sense of what society condones.
I should also note that some never seem to "grow up" - appropriateness simply eludes them permanently. If you look at Uber you have a founder that could, in theory, be a grandfather but doesn't seem to have a sense of what society condones.
What gives you the impression that these specific people are bright? Or were never forced to conform?
This is not how socially inept high school nerds behave; its how VC funded frat bros (who include their fraternity on their linkedin profile) do.
Not sure why I am defending Peter Thiel, but I don't think this has anything to do with him or any of his bad ideas.
This is not how socially inept high school nerds behave; its how VC funded frat bros (who include their fraternity on their linkedin profile) do.
Not sure why I am defending Peter Thiel, but I don't think this has anything to do with him or any of his bad ideas.
You're right ... it's a very clear extension of the frat-bro phenomenon. You don't need to defend Thiel as I wasn't attacking him. He was simply a convenient adjective since I thought most here would know about his fellowship program (and I had to apologize for stereotyping high school nerds in another sub-comment).
The founders are far from socially-inept nerds. Perhaps relevant in some cases, but not at all here. I think that the average socially-inept-nerd company culture may be better than what this lawsuit implies existed at Upload.
This kind of behavior has been reported at many startups. Venture capitalists have apparently made an implicit analysis that the risk of settling a lawsuit is cheaper than adult supervision and an experienced HR department. The free market has spoken.
I don't understand why this article is on HN.
The purpose of HN is to gratify intellectual curiosity. There's nothing to learn from this, and it's not interesting. Bad things exist.
We might want to try to flag this.
The purpose of HN is to gratify intellectual curiosity. There's nothing to learn from this, and it's not interesting. Bad things exist.
We might want to try to flag this.
What's flaggable about it? (The fact that it makes you feel weird isn't a reason, by the way.)
Being outside the guidelines is the central reason to flag a story.
I would say there is tons to learn about this. For one, if your startup starts to grow, don't do what the people in this story did. Try to make your workplace culture have a modicum of decency.
Many people on here are trying to run startups.
Understanding company culture and sexual harassment are important issues to be educated about.
Understanding company culture and sexual harassment are important issues to be educated about.
As tptacek is fond of saying, HN shouldn't try to be all things to all people. There are an infinite number of issues that classify as important but are beyond the scope of HN's charter.
I'm more shocked by the puritanical reactions here, it's something I'd expect from Saudi Arabia, not silicon valley.
We're all fine with ping pong tables and other forms of entertainment that aren't work related, so I don't buy the "professional environment" bullshit. But somehow sex, or just talking about sex in an office has become taboo.
Instead of being open and progressive it's back to code words and using the disabled toilet.
We're all fine with ping pong tables and other forms of entertainment that aren't work related, so I don't buy the "professional environment" bullshit. But somehow sex, or just talking about sex in an office has become taboo.
Instead of being open and progressive it's back to code words and using the disabled toilet.
I'll try to take a stab at this.
1.Sex is not ping pong. It is much more personal and intimate. There is a reason sex in public is an offense and playing ping pong in public is not. It is not yet another way to blow off some steam. It can come with baggage. It does not belong in a professional environment like an office. Go have sex at home, at a hotel, at a friend's place or in a sex dungeon (if that's your scene).
2.Talk about sex at work with someone who doesn't mind it or infront of someone who doesn't mind it. Personally I am not interested in hearing about your bondage fetishes or your "conquests". Be respectful of other's wishes. If you talk about your sexual life or someone else's in front of people who do mind that creates an uncomfortable working environment.
3. If you say sex is allowed in the office who's to say what kind of sex allowed vs. not allowed? There are infinite fetishes from the mundane to the unbelievable. If you are saying, but well sex in office isn't going to happen in an open setting but in a closed room so what does it matter what fetish is being enacted, well then my friend don't be cheap, just rent a hotel room for those activities instead of asking your employer to provide you with a sex room to indulge your sexual needs. Next you'll ask them to provide you with "companions", after all your employer did provide that ping pong table right?
4. Now you may say well the "puritanical" attitudes of your coworkers creates an uncomfortable work environment for you so how about they conform to your social beliefs? Well you see the majority dictates the social norms. It is a fact of life whether you think it is fair or not. Till a majority's attitude towards openly LGBTQ work colleagues hadn't shifted towards acceptability, having them as colleagues was uncomfortable for people. Then the majority attitude changed and it became acceptable.
Now the LGBTQ community worked hard to change that mindset and my friend in our democracy you too have that option to change people's minds.
But till you have changed a majority's mind you are stuck with our rules. Deal with it.
1.Sex is not ping pong. It is much more personal and intimate. There is a reason sex in public is an offense and playing ping pong in public is not. It is not yet another way to blow off some steam. It can come with baggage. It does not belong in a professional environment like an office. Go have sex at home, at a hotel, at a friend's place or in a sex dungeon (if that's your scene).
2.Talk about sex at work with someone who doesn't mind it or infront of someone who doesn't mind it. Personally I am not interested in hearing about your bondage fetishes or your "conquests". Be respectful of other's wishes. If you talk about your sexual life or someone else's in front of people who do mind that creates an uncomfortable working environment.
3. If you say sex is allowed in the office who's to say what kind of sex allowed vs. not allowed? There are infinite fetishes from the mundane to the unbelievable. If you are saying, but well sex in office isn't going to happen in an open setting but in a closed room so what does it matter what fetish is being enacted, well then my friend don't be cheap, just rent a hotel room for those activities instead of asking your employer to provide you with a sex room to indulge your sexual needs. Next you'll ask them to provide you with "companions", after all your employer did provide that ping pong table right?
4. Now you may say well the "puritanical" attitudes of your coworkers creates an uncomfortable work environment for you so how about they conform to your social beliefs? Well you see the majority dictates the social norms. It is a fact of life whether you think it is fair or not. Till a majority's attitude towards openly LGBTQ work colleagues hadn't shifted towards acceptability, having them as colleagues was uncomfortable for people. Then the majority attitude changed and it became acceptable.
Now the LGBTQ community worked hard to change that mindset and my friend in our democracy you too have that option to change people's minds.
But till you have changed a majority's mind you are stuck with our rules. Deal with it.
Thanks, I think I disagree with most of your points but unlike every other person here you've made some good points worth thinking about.
Believe it or not, but there indeed exists, even in liberal San Francisco, a certain crowd of prudish men and women who categorize sexual intercourse differently from ping-pong, even though both are technically physical activities that can be entertaining.
Of course they're different activities, but I haven't seen anyone give an objective reason why one is good and one is bad.
Ladies and gentlemen, an example of someone who doesn't understand the relevance of established social norms!
You really don't understand the difference between ping-pong and sex?
Either you really like ping-pong, or you really don't like sex.. ;-)
Listen, you may have somewhat of an academic point here, but you're ignoring the fact that way more people - men and women - would be uncomfortable with open discussion of co-workers' sexual activities, much less knowing or condoning that it happens in the workplace, than having a ping pong table in the break room.
Is this a good or a bad thing? it actually doesn't matter, because it is what it is. It is a social norm.
Can it be changed? Sure, maybe.. But you will only present yourself poorly if you think that telling people their concerns don't matter, or are "bullshit" is the way to change this.
You really don't understand the difference between ping-pong and sex?
Either you really like ping-pong, or you really don't like sex.. ;-)
Listen, you may have somewhat of an academic point here, but you're ignoring the fact that way more people - men and women - would be uncomfortable with open discussion of co-workers' sexual activities, much less knowing or condoning that it happens in the workplace, than having a ping pong table in the break room.
Is this a good or a bad thing? it actually doesn't matter, because it is what it is. It is a social norm.
Can it be changed? Sure, maybe.. But you will only present yourself poorly if you think that telling people their concerns don't matter, or are "bullshit" is the way to change this.
> Is this a good or a bad thing? it actually doesn't matter, because it is what it is. It is a social norm.
So basically "that's how we've always done things". That's a terrible justification for anything, particularly anything to do with sex and it's history of persecution. It wasn't long ago that being openly gay went against the social norms.
> Can it be changed? Sure, maybe.. But you will only present yourself poorly if you think that telling people their concerns don't matter, or are "bullshit" is the way to change this.
What concerns? I don't see anyone listing concerns or discussing the consequences of being more open about sex in the workplace, just a lot of statements that you can't or shouldn't do it.
So basically "that's how we've always done things". That's a terrible justification for anything, particularly anything to do with sex and it's history of persecution. It wasn't long ago that being openly gay went against the social norms.
> Can it be changed? Sure, maybe.. But you will only present yourself poorly if you think that telling people their concerns don't matter, or are "bullshit" is the way to change this.
What concerns? I don't see anyone listing concerns or discussing the consequences of being more open about sex in the workplace, just a lot of statements that you can't or shouldn't do it.
It's not my place to educate you about why existing social norms should at least matter to you, regardless of whether you agree with them or not, so I'll let you learn those lessons on your own.
Also comparing sex in the workplace with gay persecution makes you look like an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's a completely unreasonable comparison. Are you going to compare it to slavery next?
We're done here.
Also comparing sex in the workplace with gay persecution makes you look like an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's a completely unreasonable comparison. Are you going to compare it to slavery next?
We're done here.
He doesn't understand because he's a complete _tablua rasa_ --- ignorant of all history and society. Not realizing that sex comes with a lot of baggage and that consequences of sex are dramatically different for a man than a woman.
Or maybe he's just from one of those foreign cultures in which you just can't get a good ping-pong game in unless you're willing to put a ring on it, or at least pay for a nice dinner.
> He doesn't understand because he's a complete _tablua rasa_ --- ignorant of all history and society.
It's a good technique to evaluate of your poisition is rational or not, you should try it sometime. "That's how it's always been done" is an awful argument for anything.
It's a good technique to evaluate of your poisition is rational or not, you should try it sometime. "That's how it's always been done" is an awful argument for anything.
> For example, male employees stated how they were sexually aroused by female employees and how it was hard to concentrate and be productive when all they could think about was having sex with them.
> The suit also claims that the company paid male employees more despite sharing the same roles and responsibilities.
This is horrible and illegal in a lot of ways. And what were management thinking? How can anyone be productive at work with such a toxic environment? I would just be ashamed of working in such a place. And that is part of the problem, employees that do not fit in the company "culture" usually leave or are fired. So the toxic environment gets perpetuated.
I work in a company with a lot of diversity, and I like it. We have only a few female developers, as there is not so much female software engineers graduating from university, but we have better parity in all other roles. We have people from a lot of different nations, and English is our shared language even that is the native tongue for just a few. I like the open, friendly environment where people get the respect they deserve. It boosts productivity and collaboration. I wouldn't like it any other way.
> The suit also claims that the company paid male employees more despite sharing the same roles and responsibilities.
This is horrible and illegal in a lot of ways. And what were management thinking? How can anyone be productive at work with such a toxic environment? I would just be ashamed of working in such a place. And that is part of the problem, employees that do not fit in the company "culture" usually leave or are fired. So the toxic environment gets perpetuated.
I work in a company with a lot of diversity, and I like it. We have only a few female developers, as there is not so much female software engineers graduating from university, but we have better parity in all other roles. We have people from a lot of different nations, and English is our shared language even that is the native tongue for just a few. I like the open, friendly environment where people get the respect they deserve. It boosts productivity and collaboration. I wouldn't like it any other way.
Direct link to complaint: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3722345-UploadVR-law...
It's something.
It's something.
Good god. These guys are going to be sued into oblivion. Hope it was worth it.
Wow. No nuance or subtlety at all. Sounds like one of those over the top training videos, where you think, "well, sure, harassment happens, but it's not that blunt and that out in the open."
Assuming it can be corroborated well enough, I would guess a very large verdict or settlement. Sounds like a hellish place to work.
Assuming it can be corroborated well enough, I would guess a very large verdict or settlement. Sounds like a hellish place to work.
Wow, I think the article was being very kind.
Holy crap. This is almost unbelievable, it's so bad. How are ANY of the things listed as complaints possibly good ideas in someone's mind!?
Lack of separation between personal and professional life. One of the things Silicon Valley companies have been working on doing for a while is blurring the lines between work and not work.
I respect TechCrunch's decision to not publish the plaintiff's name in the primary portion of their article. It's easy to look up for those who have a reason to search for it, but it's not necessary to the discussion, and could potentially alleviate some of the social backlash (or at least issues) associated with going to court. Employees with legitimate legal gripes against their employers don't need to face additional barriers (such as social stigma) to legal action.
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I don't understand why it even happens. With all high-profile cases in the last few years, can people hold it for a while? Or everybody is hiring 19 year old boys who physiologically can't?
I think a large part of it has to do with the fact that young college students and/or recent graduates building startups and hitting it big with VC funding.
It's effectively giving kids that haven't grown up a large sum of money.
It's effectively giving kids that haven't grown up a large sum of money.
Even so, do these VCs not install any kind of adult supervision when they put their money on the line? Sure, they don't want to just bring in their own CEO, but a little bit of guidance along the lines of "this is a fucking workplace, not somewhere for you to play out your immature sexual power fantasies and jeopardise my money" would go a long way.
Fetter one's stable of unicorns? Heaven forfend! They're such delicate creatures.
It's pretty easy to hide what you don't want found.
That's the impression I got too. A lot of the behavior described in the complaint reminds me of an out-of-control frat house.
Until they have a chance to answer the complaint, we should probably reserve judgement. However, if even 10% of this is true - I can't comprehend how anyone would think this was a culture that would work in 2017.
You're thinking it too rationally. Sexual harassment begins as a test of power and turns into a perpetuating abuse of power.
A well-known American described its appeal thus:
"Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."
A well-known American described its appeal thus:
"Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."
> Or everybody is hiring 19 year old boys who physiologically can't?
Not that being 19 is an excuse, but the founders of UploadVR are closer to 30 than to 19.
Not that being 19 is an excuse, but the founders of UploadVR are closer to 30 than to 19.
>> 19 year old boys who physiologically can't
I was 19 once.. it really wasn't that difficult.
I was 19 once.. it really wasn't that difficult.
I'm genuinely interested in knowing the answer to this question: What makes someone stay in a job after they've been asked to clean up a room where they found underwear and opened condom packets? Especially if the top honcho was allegedly engaged in such behavior. There is no chance the situation is going to get better no matter who you complained to. get out now!
>What makes someone stay in a job after they've been asked to clean up a room where they found underwear and opened condom packets?
Money. The same attitude that leads to this also means six figure salaries for "social media experts".
Money. The same attitude that leads to this also means six figure salaries for "social media experts".
That's exactly what I was pondering after reading the lawsuit.
I mean, being told to be the 'mommy' of the male workers, not being supplied with equipment in contrary to the others, having to hear directly of mentions to threesomes and disapproval of sexual appearance, being kicked out of your room for your boss to have sex with someone in it, being ostracized by not using drugs at work.
Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction so I would not doubt that is true, I am just having great difficulty to understand how such scenario would be feasible. I mean, how could someone continue to work in a place like this for almost a year?
I mean, being told to be the 'mommy' of the male workers, not being supplied with equipment in contrary to the others, having to hear directly of mentions to threesomes and disapproval of sexual appearance, being kicked out of your room for your boss to have sex with someone in it, being ostracized by not using drugs at work.
Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction so I would not doubt that is true, I am just having great difficulty to understand how such scenario would be feasible. I mean, how could someone continue to work in a place like this for almost a year?
A "smush room" ... gross.
I haven't had to deal with that kind of gross culture since I quit an it job on wall street.
It sounds like wall street executive culture is leaking through and through silicon valley.
It sounds like wall street executive culture is leaking through and through silicon valley.
Lol, I just checked UploadVR's website and a popup window used for collecting email has following:
> GET HOOKED UP
I'm not gonna even expect the accused to clean up their acts. Only way they will learn, and teach other younger ones not to copy their acts, is for the investors to hammer this down hard.
They only understand the all mighty dollars so they need to be dealt with accordingly.
I'm not gonna even expect the accused to clean up their acts. Only way they will learn, and teach other younger ones not to copy their acts, is for the investors to hammer this down hard.
They only understand the all mighty dollars so they need to be dealt with accordingly.
Hm, why am I voted down?
Bloody hell. This sounds like a parody of a dreadful Silicon Valley company.
I think if a company like this was in the show Silicon Valley it would be badly received because it would be too out there and unrealistic even for that show.
Funny story: Dan Lyons, a writer for Silicon Valley and the author of the book Disrupted, about his experiences working at the high tech startup HubSpot, said that he had pitched many things that he personally saw during his time there. He was frequently shot down because they seemed too far outside reality.
Many of the defendants are in this promo video.
https://upload.io
https://upload.io
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As mentioned on TechCrunch, Greg Gopman (dude who wrote the incredibly tone-deaf anti-homeless piece that went viral a few years back) is named in the lawsuit.
Shitheads gonna shit.
Shitheads gonna shit.
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I think VC's should just pull funding from companies that have dog-rain management.
Sort of like the Abhishekh Guttani case. Sites like crunch base should give them a "DO NOT FUND ASSHOLES" stamp.
Sort of like the Abhishekh Guttani case. Sites like crunch base should give them a "DO NOT FUND ASSHOLES" stamp.
Wow. Wonder what Robert Scoble is going to say about this... He's been talking them up recently on Facebook.
Scoble works (EDIT: worked) for UploadVR. https://uploadvr.com/scoble-why-vr/
He no longer works there according to his LinkedIn, and posted this a few days ago: https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015527865493465...
I love how Scoble thinks that just because he doesn't include the company's name means he isn't violating the non-disparagement clause
Think this case may have just rendered any damages moot, however.
Thanks for the followup.
> But I'll add one more new sign: "if your social media team leaves your company is f*ed."
It's worth noting the plaintiff of this case was the head of the UploadVR social media team.
> But I'll add one more new sign: "if your social media team leaves your company is f*ed."
It's worth noting the plaintiff of this case was the head of the UploadVR social media team.
I'll add one more sign: they've got a sex room.
Joel Spolsky being down on aquariums seems rather quaint now.
Joel Spolsky being down on aquariums seems rather quaint now.
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From his facebook post:
"If your executive team is mostly white guys I'm staying away too"
Um, what? Why does the race or ethnicity of the exec team have anything to do with anything? Insert any race into that sentence. Completely ridiculous. This guy is a nutball, and so is the company culture.
https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015527865493465...
"If your executive team is mostly white guys I'm staying away too"
Um, what? Why does the race or ethnicity of the exec team have anything to do with anything? Insert any race into that sentence. Completely ridiculous. This guy is a nutball, and so is the company culture.
https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015527865493465...
How about this...
"If your executive team is mostly white guys [which indicates that you're mining from the same labor pool as everyone else, and shows you're not willing to do basic legwork,] I'm staying away too."
"If your executive team is mostly white guys [which indicates that you're mining from the same labor pool as everyone else, and shows you're not willing to do basic legwork,] I'm staying away too."
Scoble's statement: https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015528797164465...
The post others are linking to from a few days ago seems to be referencing Rackspace, as UploadVR has not lost its CEO.
The post others are linking to from a few days ago seems to be referencing Rackspace, as UploadVR has not lost its CEO.
My lowpass filter makes me not to believe in this, but it's been wrong before :(
It's like a different universe over there.
Yes, but if one must have sex in the workplace, I would rather it be in a designated area than, say, on my desk. I want to know what surfaces genitals have been pressed against and where, with a reasonable degree of confidence, they haven't.
I'm not even hung up about the sex at all, if it's consensual you do you and or whomever you like, but it's a matter of hygiene.
I'm not even hung up about the sex at all, if it's consensual you do you and or whomever you like, but it's a matter of hygiene.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346328 and marked it off-topic.
One shouldn't must have sex in office. So simple no ?
If you are reserve a room for sex, you(boss) are simply saying to all your employees that they can do whatever they wants in office and imho is not good for culture neither.
In your office there is a room for sex ?
If you are reserve a room for sex, you(boss) are simply saying to all your employees that they can do whatever they wants in office and imho is not good for culture neither.
In your office there is a room for sex ?
> One shouldn't must have sex in office. So simple no ?
Well, yes, but if people are going to anyway, might as well have a place for it.
>In your office there is a room for sex ?
I work at an Amazon fulfillment center. If there were a room for sex, it wouldn't be allowed in my process path due to insufficient rate.
Well, yes, but if people are going to anyway, might as well have a place for it.
>In your office there is a room for sex ?
I work at an Amazon fulfillment center. If there were a room for sex, it wouldn't be allowed in my process path due to insufficient rate.
If people are going to be assholes anyway, might as well have a designated swastika room too, right? A company isn't required to fulfill the every desire of their employees.
I merely stated that were sex in the workplace to be considered inevitable, and it probably should be, that it would be preferable not to just let it be had anywhere. I never insisted that any company be required to do anything.
Also, it's weird that of all the things you could have compared sex to, you picked "being an asshole" and, apparently, racism.
You know sex is a good thing, right?
Also, it's weird that of all the things you could have compared sex to, you picked "being an asshole" and, apparently, racism.
You know sex is a good thing, right?
Why would sex in the workplace be considered "inevitable"? Is watching March Madness or Game of Thrones likewise inevitable and thus a good employer should furnish a rec room with HD TV? Perhaps some do. But many others assert that they provide fair working hours and wages to their employees which allow employees plenty of time to go home (and even take vacation days) to enjoy such recreation, rather than have it be a distracting accessory to the workplace.
>Is watching March Madness or Game of Thrones likewise inevitable and thus a good employer should furnish a rec room with HD TV?
Sexual intercourse is a fundamental human drive, whereas watching television is not. That said, many employers do, in fact, have HDTVs in a breakroom or somewhere similar.
Despite it being banned in every workplace in the western world, sex at work is commonplace. When people want to do it, they're going to do it - that's what makes it inevitable.
Sexual intercourse is a fundamental human drive, whereas watching television is not. That said, many employers do, in fact, have HDTVs in a breakroom or somewhere similar.
Despite it being banned in every workplace in the western world, sex at work is commonplace. When people want to do it, they're going to do it - that's what makes it inevitable.
A6 (1 minute)... Sex (2 minutes)... J32 (5 minutes)... Sleep (180 minutes)...
Sounds like the future to me!
Sounds like the future to me!
> I want to know what surfaces genitals have been pressed against and where
If it's rampant at my company, then call me rather remaining blissfully ignorant.
(I'll just buy Purell in bulk to be sure)
If it's rampant at my company, then call me rather remaining blissfully ignorant.
(I'll just buy Purell in bulk to be sure)
No one MUST have sex in the workplace.
If you do you should be immediately terminated. End of story.
If you do you should be immediately terminated. End of story.
Why? It's none of your business what I do on my lunch break.
It is if you're doing it in the office. Seriously, at least go out to your car, or just go home.
SO what's the distinguishing feature that makes a car ok but not the office? Is it the proximity to you or something about the office? Does the car being in the company parking lot make a difference?
How is going going to a car around the corner fundamentally different to a sex room in the office?
How is going going to a car around the corner fundamentally different to a sex room in the office?
There is no way you are asking these questions in good faith.
It is company business if you do it in their property.
Why? I shit on company property, during company time and use company resources doing it, is it their business if I scrunch or fold the toilet paper?
Assuming you agree they don't, things become a matter of where and why you draw the line.
Assuming you agree they don't, things become a matter of where and why you draw the line.
Try shitting in your company bathtoom's urinals or sinks. Then tell us whether your company considered it their business.
That's a great example of a double standard. Unlike sex there are obvious negative health effects and DoS for non-participants, yet the most I've seen a company do is put up a passive aggressive poster or send a strongly worded email from HR. Without the threat of sexual harassment lawsuits they trust us to be self policing adults.
Well, I'm not a labor law expert, but in the state of New York, it is mandated for all employers to follow these posting requirements, which include a multilingual-document from the NY State Division of Human Rights regarding state discrimination and human rights laws:
https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/employe...
Federal law mandates a different set of documents to be posted in the work place: https://www.dol.gov/general/topics/posters/
https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/employe...
Federal law mandates a different set of documents to be posted in the work place: https://www.dol.gov/general/topics/posters/
Stay away from the photo-copier.
I think we should always pay attention to the other side of the story before we buy into the allegations.
I am not playing down the possible harassment of any employee but let us not be blinded by the allegations alone either.
I am not playing down the possible harassment of any employee but let us not be blinded by the allegations alone either.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346056 and marked it off-topic. We also banned this account for trolling, as explained below.
If it's consensual and everyone is an adult, I don't see the problem. No different than everyone having sex in the meditation room at a coworking space (true story!).
But harassment and abuse? Do not pass go. Go directly to court and liquidation.
But harassment and abuse? Do not pass go. Go directly to court and liquidation.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346328 and marked it off-topic.
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The problem is that is a fucking workplace...
If they want have sex is better for them that they don't get caught or they do at home.
Have a room/bed for sex in office is something really stupid if you want have a sane culture(imho).
If they want have sex is better for them that they don't get caught or they do at home.
Have a room/bed for sex in office is something really stupid if you want have a sane culture(imho).
Just because it's the workplace doesn't mean you can't have sex there. Every company's culture is different. Choose accordingly!
This does not mean harassment is okay. It is never okay.
This does not mean harassment is okay. It is never okay.
Sex in the workplace that other people are aware of is not unlikely to be (or be part of, along with other things in the workplace that would be normal absent the sex happening alongside them) harassment.
Unless the sex is a bona fide part of the core business function, rather than an extra-curricular workplace activity.
Unless the sex is a bona fide part of the core business function, rather than an extra-curricular workplace activity.
There's a whole lot of difference between two colleagues consensually sneaking off to have sex and having a fucking designated sex room in the office for everyone to see.
You clearly never understood the phrase 'hostile work environment'.
You clearly never understood the phrase 'hostile work environment'.
We have different ideas about workplace and sane culture.
And that's okay. One size does not fit all.
Not sure if your idea of workplace is good for a young girl that don't want be harassed every day.
All of my comments explicitly say harrasment is never okay. I'm unsure how I could be more clear in that regard.
If you abuse, harass, or coerce someone, you should be shown no mercy. Otherwise, leave consenting adults to themselves if they're discrete.
If you abuse, harass, or coerce someone, you should be shown no mercy. Otherwise, leave consenting adults to themselves if they're discrete.
Otherwise, leave consenting adults to themselves if they're discrete.
There is NOTHING discreet about what you are suggesting. "Oh, excuse us while we go fuck in the designated fucking place at work while y'all keep working. Be right back for the next meeting in 20 minutes."
That is the exact opposite of discreetness and discretion.
There is NOTHING discreet about what you are suggesting. "Oh, excuse us while we go fuck in the designated fucking place at work while y'all keep working. Be right back for the next meeting in 20 minutes."
That is the exact opposite of discreetness and discretion.
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At the same time, this environment puts pressure on people to engage in these activities, and that can lead to harassment.
Honestly, it is not that difficult to leave that stuff outside the office.
Honestly, it is not that difficult to leave that stuff outside the office.
Sure but you understand that with some cultures is more likely that this happen ?
> Just because it's the workplace doesn't mean you can't have sex there
Sorry but what on earth is wrong with you ?
Having sex at the workplace is both an Occupational Health & Safety and a Sexual Harassment issue. It is completely and utterly unacceptable in any normal workplace and in most countries it is illegal. The idea that it is part of a company's culture and therefore something people should just tolerate is downright offensive.
Sorry but what on earth is wrong with you ?
Having sex at the workplace is both an Occupational Health & Safety and a Sexual Harassment issue. It is completely and utterly unacceptable in any normal workplace and in most countries it is illegal. The idea that it is part of a company's culture and therefore something people should just tolerate is downright offensive.
> The problem is that is a fucking workplace...
Well, yes.
Well, yes.
Consent is not an issue here. Two adults can consent to have sex in the workplace and, as a result, cause a third coworker psychological harm.
In other words, two consenting adults can create a toxic work environment, which is why sex in the office is pretty much verboten.
In other words, two consenting adults can create a toxic work environment, which is why sex in the office is pretty much verboten.
Totally agree and was part of my point.
Workplace should be for work. If people want have sex, they can go at home or at a motel.
Workplace should be for work. If people want have sex, they can go at home or at a motel.
Miller v. Dept of Corrections[0] is an example of this sort of toxic work environment.
[0] http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections...
[0] http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections...
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> Male employees used that room to have sexual intercourse, which was disruptive and inappropriate.
With whom?
With whom?
This stands out like a sore thumb. Somehow I get the feeling this does not mean the room was used exclusively for gay male sex.
Presumably, female non-employees (likely, though not necessarily exclusively, prostitutes), at least if that room is consistent with all the other allegations of sex involving male employees at company events.
I think that a surveillance society is the only possible development that can come from issues like this.
Instead of 'he said, she said', companies will have detailed records of everything said by most employees.
Instead of 'he said, she said', companies will have detailed records of everything said by most employees.
Talking about female coworkers? Sure, that happens.
Talk about sex at work? Sure. Not at my workplace, but ok.
Talk about rubbing one out because a coworker gave you boner? Eh.... O_o
Hell, my parents are still surprised to hear I can show up at whatever time in the morning and leave whenever I feel like it! That's what they consider outrageous.