The great self-esteem con(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
The great self-esteem con
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/03/quasi-religious-great-self-esteem-con
199 comments
I agree with this assessment. People who are vitriolically opposed to 'participation trophies' miss something very basic in my opinion, and that is, participation is optional. Meaning, you have to show up to get the trophy.
This is a subtle distinction I didn't get until raising my own kids. Maybe this is obvious to others, but it was a real "aha" moment to me. To get your kids to act the way you want, you can't just focus on the negative all the time, you have to let them know when they're doing things right. If you just wait for them to screw up then yell at them, you end up doing a lot of yelling, and they're behavior sucks. But when they're sitting at the table eating their dinner, using their fork like they're supposed to, a comment that hey, you're doing a great job right now! really goes a long way in communicating what your expectations are of them.
Before I had kids, if I'd heard this, I would think those parents are pandering and dumb. But it really does work.
This is a subtle distinction I didn't get until raising my own kids. Maybe this is obvious to others, but it was a real "aha" moment to me. To get your kids to act the way you want, you can't just focus on the negative all the time, you have to let them know when they're doing things right. If you just wait for them to screw up then yell at them, you end up doing a lot of yelling, and they're behavior sucks. But when they're sitting at the table eating their dinner, using their fork like they're supposed to, a comment that hey, you're doing a great job right now! really goes a long way in communicating what your expectations are of them.
Before I had kids, if I'd heard this, I would think those parents are pandering and dumb. But it really does work.
The thing that makes that one praise at the table meaningful at all is the fact that there had been dozens of times the kids behaved just as well, or mostly as well, but the parents choose to not make a big deal about it.
The same argument works for negative reinforcement as well. The most convincing argument I have heard about avoiding harsh rising of children has nothing to do with the intrinsic rights o kids. Instead, it points out that one day, not that far away, you may find your teenager consuming drugs, or engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse, or commiting petty crime; and if by then you have not left yourself enough room to escalate short of corporal punishment (or not even that) then you might find yourself in a fight that you cannot win a hormone loaded young person that never learned to respect you and surely won't start today.
So, I think this has a lot to do with signal to noise ratio. Whether you praise or you demean, the point is to make it rare enough to be noticed when it happens. I did not always do it that way, but I have got better results when I began following that advice.
The same argument works for negative reinforcement as well. The most convincing argument I have heard about avoiding harsh rising of children has nothing to do with the intrinsic rights o kids. Instead, it points out that one day, not that far away, you may find your teenager consuming drugs, or engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse, or commiting petty crime; and if by then you have not left yourself enough room to escalate short of corporal punishment (or not even that) then you might find yourself in a fight that you cannot win a hormone loaded young person that never learned to respect you and surely won't start today.
So, I think this has a lot to do with signal to noise ratio. Whether you praise or you demean, the point is to make it rare enough to be noticed when it happens. I did not always do it that way, but I have got better results when I began following that advice.
I think this applies to all levels of life and career. As a millennial working for a boss that knows only the stick and never ever picks the carrot, I wish you could give him some advice. I can do everything right for 6-12 months and never hear from him...then make one mistake and here comes HR with threats of termination.
Then don't lie about what you're praising, make it clear and focused on the actual positive.
If you're going to have a ribbon or something, make sure that it's for seeing the task through, for "being there". Not something to try to artificially rival or nearly match 'being the best'.
If you're going to have a ribbon or something, make sure that it's for seeing the task through, for "being there". Not something to try to artificially rival or nearly match 'being the best'.
Like most recreational sports like triathlon and marathon have finishing medals. It feels ok when you get it, but clearly people getting these don't think they are winning anything.
the kids were never fooled. They knew exactly who had really won
Yep, all that positive reinforcement only taught us not to trust praise. At least, that was my response. Praise just reinforced how I already felt about myself. If I felt I was doing well, praise felt like confirmation, and it felt great. If I didn't feel I had done something to deserve it, praise felt awful, like I had been called out as being especially pathetic.
My knee-jerk reaction to an unexpected compliment is still to feel humiliated and angry. I've learned to think twice and sometimes realize, yeah, I did handle that well, or yeah, this is a nice outfit, but I still have that instant of feeling attacked before I control my reaction.
I think that's a lesson to learn: you can't erase the difference between success and failure. If you try, you just end up confusing them. A kid who hears praise every time he fucks up learns to associate praise with failure and learns there's no way to deal with failure except to pretend it didn't happen.
Yep, all that positive reinforcement only taught us not to trust praise. At least, that was my response. Praise just reinforced how I already felt about myself. If I felt I was doing well, praise felt like confirmation, and it felt great. If I didn't feel I had done something to deserve it, praise felt awful, like I had been called out as being especially pathetic.
My knee-jerk reaction to an unexpected compliment is still to feel humiliated and angry. I've learned to think twice and sometimes realize, yeah, I did handle that well, or yeah, this is a nice outfit, but I still have that instant of feeling attacked before I control my reaction.
I think that's a lesson to learn: you can't erase the difference between success and failure. If you try, you just end up confusing them. A kid who hears praise every time he fucks up learns to associate praise with failure and learns there's no way to deal with failure except to pretend it didn't happen.
I agree and furthermore I think that excessive praise even when someone is just doing what's expected of them can be harmful.
Anecdotal: My boss used to go around praising people in general for just doing their jobs. I was even on the receiving end of so many "have I told you how awesome you are" or "I hope you realize how valuable you are to the operation" canned responses that, although it was nice to hear, it lost its luster eventually. I ended up replying every time he'd do this with a motion of opening a beer can accompanied with a verbal "psshtt" sound and adding in a "thanks for the can of praise." It was meant in jest and he took it in stride and understood it wasn't meant with any malice. I was just poking a little fun at the observations he was making.
The point is, when you do it to too many people, too often, and for doing nothing but what's expected of them, it starts to ring hollow eventually.
Anecdotal: I observed something about myself which I found peculiar. A friend of a friend on Facebook, whom I observe to have quite intelligent DH4+ responses to comments even if the masses usually come back with a DH0 or DH1 response. I found myself observing his responses to other folks' comments and throwing in my own $.02. I discovered that the quality of my responses was greatly elevated when replying to him, clearly attempting to engage him at his level. This was sometimes rewarded with a 'like' from him, and sometimes not. When receiving a 'like' it resulted in a physiological response from me akin to a very light drug high.
Anecdotal: My boss used to go around praising people in general for just doing their jobs. I was even on the receiving end of so many "have I told you how awesome you are" or "I hope you realize how valuable you are to the operation" canned responses that, although it was nice to hear, it lost its luster eventually. I ended up replying every time he'd do this with a motion of opening a beer can accompanied with a verbal "psshtt" sound and adding in a "thanks for the can of praise." It was meant in jest and he took it in stride and understood it wasn't meant with any malice. I was just poking a little fun at the observations he was making.
The point is, when you do it to too many people, too often, and for doing nothing but what's expected of them, it starts to ring hollow eventually.
Anecdotal: I observed something about myself which I found peculiar. A friend of a friend on Facebook, whom I observe to have quite intelligent DH4+ responses to comments even if the masses usually come back with a DH0 or DH1 response. I found myself observing his responses to other folks' comments and throwing in my own $.02. I discovered that the quality of my responses was greatly elevated when replying to him, clearly attempting to engage him at his level. This was sometimes rewarded with a 'like' from him, and sometimes not. When receiving a 'like' it resulted in a physiological response from me akin to a very light drug high.
What does DH stand for?
Apparently "disagreement hierarchy".
Took me quite some time to find the magic combination of search terms. Of course HN assumes intimate knowledge with PG's works. ;)
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
Took me quite some time to find the magic combination of search terms. Of course HN assumes intimate knowledge with PG's works. ;)
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
My apologies. Yes, that's the correct reference. I learned about Paul Graham via several HN posts years ago and his explanation isn't unnecessarily complicated so I figured his work was widely known/understood.
P.S. when I put "dh0 response" into Google, the first link is Paul Graham's How to Disagree
P.S. when I put "dh0 response" into Google, the first link is Paul Graham's How to Disagree
Your Google-fu is better than mine. I tried "DH0", then "DH0 DH1", "dh disagreement", "dh levels", and it wasn't until "dh0 dh1 levels" that I got my answer. :)
I am also uncomfortable with compliments. About the only praise I can stand now comes with a bonus check attached, because that confirms the [additional] value that person placed on my effort. Even if you're faking that enthusiasm, I still get to spend the money.
Otherwise, if you valued my performance at the cost of printing up a certificate on paper that is slightly heavier and more cream-colored than normal copy paper, and with an injection-molded bit of plastic that has an engraved plaque glued to it, I would feel about $25 worth of honored.
That crap works on my father, though. He likes everyone to know how great and interesting he is.
For me, nothing is worse than getting a compliment when I don't think I deserve one, and if I already think I deserve one, I don't actually need to get any, because I'm already feeling great.
Otherwise, if you valued my performance at the cost of printing up a certificate on paper that is slightly heavier and more cream-colored than normal copy paper, and with an injection-molded bit of plastic that has an engraved plaque glued to it, I would feel about $25 worth of honored.
That crap works on my father, though. He likes everyone to know how great and interesting he is.
For me, nothing is worse than getting a compliment when I don't think I deserve one, and if I already think I deserve one, I don't actually need to get any, because I'm already feeling great.
I think trophies for trying shows that the self-esteem movement didn't go far enough.
Take a company with a completely and utterly broken sales process. Landing page copy is abjectly horrible, half the orders get dropped, no tracking or analytics, and one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Now fixing that entire system is a hard job, but a valuable one. So what do we do? We give people coupons. That's easy.
Now take the "self-esteem movement". The basic idea was that it'd be valuable to give people a sense of trust in their own abilities, acknowledge them as intrinsically valuable, and have them learn to appreciate their own accomplishments, because that better prepares them for any of the challenges that life may offer. But to put that to work up and down the stack is a hard problem. So we hand out coupons. That's easy.
And in that we accomplish the opposite from what we set out to do. Instead of feeling acknowledged, children feel conned. Instead of making them feel valued for what they are, we make them feel interchangeable. Instead of helping children celebrate their achievement we undermine the concept of achievement in their minds by treating it as "eh, you've tried".
Take a company with a completely and utterly broken sales process. Landing page copy is abjectly horrible, half the orders get dropped, no tracking or analytics, and one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Now fixing that entire system is a hard job, but a valuable one. So what do we do? We give people coupons. That's easy.
Now take the "self-esteem movement". The basic idea was that it'd be valuable to give people a sense of trust in their own abilities, acknowledge them as intrinsically valuable, and have them learn to appreciate their own accomplishments, because that better prepares them for any of the challenges that life may offer. But to put that to work up and down the stack is a hard problem. So we hand out coupons. That's easy.
And in that we accomplish the opposite from what we set out to do. Instead of feeling acknowledged, children feel conned. Instead of making them feel valued for what they are, we make them feel interchangeable. Instead of helping children celebrate their achievement we undermine the concept of achievement in their minds by treating it as "eh, you've tried".
The devil does not deserve even the due you're giving it. Imposing a dysfunctional self-concept on children to satisfy the parents' anxiety is at best morally dubious in and of itself, but more importantly, praise that is relentlessly unconditional and unearned ignores everything researchers have found in operant conditioning concerning satiation, schedule, individualization, and zone of proximal development.
> Imposing a dysfunctional self-concept on children to satisfy the parents' anxiety is at best morally dubious in and of itself
When I played rec sports as a kid, we weren't allowed to keep score because it might lead to bad feelings and competitiveness. Not just when we were too young to do it right, but up to around age 15. Everyone involved did keep score of course, we'd all signed up for a competitive sport outside of school. (Or been pushed in by parents, who nevertheless didn't want scorekeeping...) But anyone overheard mentioning the score got an angry lecture, so we had to do it when there were no (adult) witnesses.
It didn't take long at all for kids to notice that we were 'protecting' the adults instead of the reverse. Score was still kept, kids were still being bullied to tears over losses, nothing had changed, but the rule worked perfectly at making sure parents and coaches didn't see it happen.
I don't think participation ribbons hurt kids, because they have so little impact. At worst, aimless positivity is just a wasted opportunity for something better. But the more controlling side of self-esteem building is creepy and terrible - it has a horrible emphasis on changing kid's lives to allay their parents fears, no matter how unreasonable.
When I played rec sports as a kid, we weren't allowed to keep score because it might lead to bad feelings and competitiveness. Not just when we were too young to do it right, but up to around age 15. Everyone involved did keep score of course, we'd all signed up for a competitive sport outside of school. (Or been pushed in by parents, who nevertheless didn't want scorekeeping...) But anyone overheard mentioning the score got an angry lecture, so we had to do it when there were no (adult) witnesses.
It didn't take long at all for kids to notice that we were 'protecting' the adults instead of the reverse. Score was still kept, kids were still being bullied to tears over losses, nothing had changed, but the rule worked perfectly at making sure parents and coaches didn't see it happen.
I don't think participation ribbons hurt kids, because they have so little impact. At worst, aimless positivity is just a wasted opportunity for something better. But the more controlling side of self-esteem building is creepy and terrible - it has a horrible emphasis on changing kid's lives to allay their parents fears, no matter how unreasonable.
Sure: using a participation trophy to teach what success feels like (e.g. when you're 3 years old in a gymnastics performance for the first time in front of an audience full of strange parents) has more defensible merits. Using it as an attempt to dispel unpleasant emotions and thereby assault or hamper development of well-adjusted task metacognition is something else entirely.
So many devils, so little time.
"Operant conditioning"?
For whom and for what purposes are our kids to be satiated, scheduled, individualized, and zoned?
"Operant conditioning"?
For whom and for what purposes are our kids to be satiated, scheduled, individualized, and zoned?
That's your choice, as a parent. You're going to attempt to manipulate the child into certain behaviors whether you think of it in scientific terms or not. Might as well do it effectively.
All of which are points I carefully take into consideration before saying "Good job!"
I'm simply not having children unless I have a reasonable plan for alternatives to age-segregated schooling. The entire system is deeply, fundamentally flawed, and definitively not in the best interest of the child.
I'd be fascinated to see another system that could work at scale. Nor has there been a historical system that was better AFAICT.
I do have a few friends who home-school, and that's great if a parent can dedicate a significant amount of time to that.
I do applaud your stance. The chance for me to even consider it is long gone. :)
I do have a few friends who home-school, and that's great if a parent can dedicate a significant amount of time to that.
I do applaud your stance. The chance for me to even consider it is long gone. :)
Haven't finished the article yet, but I already see several red flags as to where they got things wrong:
1. Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion, not external awards or compliments. External stuff produces other-esteem and yeah, it's the root of narcissism
2. They tried to produce self-esteem through removing any chance of suffering. Teaching people how to respond to suffering would've been much more productive.
3. Describing someone to themselves can be unintentionally harmful when judgment or comparison is used, whether it be positive or negative. This article shows how positive judgments (ie. compliments/praise) can be harmful.
If anyone's interested in a functional alternative, I highly recommend the book "Nonviolent Communication."
1. Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion, not external awards or compliments. External stuff produces other-esteem and yeah, it's the root of narcissism
2. They tried to produce self-esteem through removing any chance of suffering. Teaching people how to respond to suffering would've been much more productive.
3. Describing someone to themselves can be unintentionally harmful when judgment or comparison is used, whether it be positive or negative. This article shows how positive judgments (ie. compliments/praise) can be harmful.
If anyone's interested in a functional alternative, I highly recommend the book "Nonviolent Communication."
I'm not so sure I buy into that theory of yours any more than the article.
My personal theory is that self-esteem arises from the fact that you are aware of your acceptance in a social group. Knowing that you are welcome calms you and gives that assertive vibe.
I don't think it matters how much you believe in yourself. At least not beyond a basic level. In fact, believing too much in a non-conforming self makes you a narcissist, and believing too much in a conforming self makes you vain.
My personal theory is that self-esteem arises from the fact that you are aware of your acceptance in a social group. Knowing that you are welcome calms you and gives that assertive vibe.
I don't think it matters how much you believe in yourself. At least not beyond a basic level. In fact, believing too much in a non-conforming self makes you a narcissist, and believing too much in a conforming self makes you vain.
I would agree with this, and also that the 'damage' caused by "Everyone gets a trophy" is overstated immensely. My experience having coached children's basketball was that the consolation and participation prizes did little to nothing to console the children when they lost. Even if they got a ribbon or a tiny participation trophy, it didn't change their sour mood over losing unless the children genuinely weren't that interested in the competition to begin with, in which case I don't really think there's a problem in not being that invested in a competition.
Undeserved praise and adoration does have negative side effects, and it likely isn't the healthiest way to raise children, but the over-emphasis on celebrating participation isn't the society ruining factor people make it out to be. At worst it's probably just a waste of resources and effort.
On the other-hand, parents over-stressing and vicariously experiencing competition through their children is a very real problem, and the behavior of some of the adults I would see at gradeschool basketball games was just shocking, especially given that it was low division schools, so mostly just after-school sports. (i.e., there was no professional path here or proper competition for any child looking to take a chance at professional play someday - it was a bunch of 8 year olds running around the court, most of which couldn't even throw the ball high enough to reach the rim of the lowered basket). To see parents yelling and screaming at their kids to shove and hurt other children in order to win was just ridiculous.
Undeserved praise and adoration does have negative side effects, and it likely isn't the healthiest way to raise children, but the over-emphasis on celebrating participation isn't the society ruining factor people make it out to be. At worst it's probably just a waste of resources and effort.
On the other-hand, parents over-stressing and vicariously experiencing competition through their children is a very real problem, and the behavior of some of the adults I would see at gradeschool basketball games was just shocking, especially given that it was low division schools, so mostly just after-school sports. (i.e., there was no professional path here or proper competition for any child looking to take a chance at professional play someday - it was a bunch of 8 year olds running around the court, most of which couldn't even throw the ball high enough to reach the rim of the lowered basket). To see parents yelling and screaming at their kids to shove and hurt other children in order to win was just ridiculous.
On the subject of "everyone gets a trophy", I can't believe this still happens, because I've only ever heard it described in derisory terms.
I've never heard anyone say "the school gave my kid a 14th place ribbon, how cute!". It's always "can you believe they give out ribbons for 14th place now?!"
Kids are pretty astute at picking up on this stuff, and I expect that being given a 14th place ribbon just feels a little sad and pathetic to a kid.
It probably doesn't do any real harm either, apart from contributing to landfill waste!
I've never heard anyone say "the school gave my kid a 14th place ribbon, how cute!". It's always "can you believe they give out ribbons for 14th place now?!"
Kids are pretty astute at picking up on this stuff, and I expect that being given a 14th place ribbon just feels a little sad and pathetic to a kid.
It probably doesn't do any real harm either, apart from contributing to landfill waste!
Most of the time kids just get "season" markers. Like, "Thanks for playing on our soccer team 2017" which I don't see as that harmful. They're trophies sometimes, simple white plastic base with some gold circle or whatever (at least the few times I've seen it) - it's a nice way to close out the season and have something on the shelf to remember, not a huge deal. I think kids notice when the trophy says "First Place." I know I knew the difference.
Yep. I've never actually seen a "14th place" ribbon, because I think even optimists know it would just be read as an insult. All I actually got were 'participation' awards, which were basically a trinket to remember the team or event by.
There was a "protect kids self-esteem" bit, but that was entirely at the top end - there was no trophy saying "First Place". I certainly never saw trophies 'celebrating' losses.
There was a "protect kids self-esteem" bit, but that was entirely at the top end - there was no trophy saying "First Place". I certainly never saw trophies 'celebrating' losses.
Do people actually give out 14th place ribbons? I've only ever seen "everyone gets a participation ribbon", which stops specifying places past 3 or 5.
More broadly, though, I definitely remember ignoring all of this stuff as a kid. We weren't allowed to keep score during soccer games because it "wasn't about winners and losers". (One wonders why we were playing a competitive sport, then.) Not just "score wasn't kept" but "get in trouble if you're heard talking about score".
So... we had to keep score when coaches and refs weren't in earshot. That was the entirety of the result. If anything, it sort of felt like something we did to protect the fragile adults! After all, the winners still made fun of the losers every game, nothing had changed, but now the adults didn't have to see it happen.
More broadly, though, I definitely remember ignoring all of this stuff as a kid. We weren't allowed to keep score during soccer games because it "wasn't about winners and losers". (One wonders why we were playing a competitive sport, then.) Not just "score wasn't kept" but "get in trouble if you're heard talking about score".
So... we had to keep score when coaches and refs weren't in earshot. That was the entirety of the result. If anything, it sort of felt like something we did to protect the fragile adults! After all, the winners still made fun of the losers every game, nothing had changed, but now the adults didn't have to see it happen.
It was always sort of funny to me to have our ten game soccer season of "we don't keep score" followed by the top performers advancing to playoffs, including a championship.
"We don't keep score, there's no winners and losers, but if we win this game we make the postseason."
"We don't keep score, there's no winners and losers, but if we win this game we make the postseason."
Yeah, I don't see what's wrong with a souvenir to remember the season by. That's not coddling kids, it's just giving them a trinket that will hopefully bring back nice memories. Amateur adult teams do the same thing in the form of t-shirts etc.
I agree that this has been blown out of proportion, as csydas said in the parent comment. Criticising participation trophies is mostly a way for certain people to signal that they don't buy in to "all that millennial snowflake bullshit". How much harm can it really do?
Having said all that, having to play soccer while secretly keeping score does sound crazy!
I agree that this has been blown out of proportion, as csydas said in the parent comment. Criticising participation trophies is mostly a way for certain people to signal that they don't buy in to "all that millennial snowflake bullshit". How much harm can it really do?
Having said all that, having to play soccer while secretly keeping score does sound crazy!
I received a 16th place ribbon in a cross country race in middle school. I thought it was silly but my Dad kept it for a long time. I don't think everyone got a ribbon, though. Maybe the top 20.
I would imagine getting a 14th place ribbon is akin to having to wear a dunce cap.
Of course it depends on how many people are in the competition. It's not the absolute placement that matters, it's the percentile. Coming in 14th in a 20-kid elementary school class is poor (though someone has to). Coming in 14th place in the Tour de France is damn good. You might not win a medal but you'll probably get sponsorships from cycling equipment companies.
To their eyes is bragging rights that you were able to get last. It wasn't long before medals for places below 1,2 & 3 were removed.
Kids are pretty smart (way smarter than some people/parents think they are) and they know how far they can go, and what they can get away with.
Kids are pretty smart (way smarter than some people/parents think they are) and they know how far they can go, and what they can get away with.
By contrast, my kids (all <8) are highly motivated to go to swim class on cold days by the ribbons given out—every participant, every class.
I wonder how much of this 'debate' is actually just people talking about different age groups?
A participation ribbon might well have motivated me at age 6, and frankly I doubt both the morality and common sense of anyone saying a six year old is too happy at a swim class. Keeping kids involved at that age seems like the biggest goal.
On the other hand, I have annoyed memories of getting participation ribbons at 15 for doing terribly in races. They felt downright insulting, because I knew exactly how I'd done and I was basically getting a ribbon for taking a bus to the meet.
A shocking number of educational issues seem to boil down to "6 year olds are not 15 year olds". That, and "offering things is better than enforcing them" - participation ribbons are way better than banning score-keeping, which I also got to see.
A participation ribbon might well have motivated me at age 6, and frankly I doubt both the morality and common sense of anyone saying a six year old is too happy at a swim class. Keeping kids involved at that age seems like the biggest goal.
On the other hand, I have annoyed memories of getting participation ribbons at 15 for doing terribly in races. They felt downright insulting, because I knew exactly how I'd done and I was basically getting a ribbon for taking a bus to the meet.
A shocking number of educational issues seem to boil down to "6 year olds are not 15 year olds". That, and "offering things is better than enforcing them" - participation ribbons are way better than banning score-keeping, which I also got to see.
Oh this is a BRILLIANT point! We almost never breakdown our perspectives based on age, much less take a moment to reflect on which of our ages is being represented by a thought.
I think the natural bias to put discrete values on things existing on a spectrum is where is all stems from. "We want to keep things simple, so here's this recipe for self-esteem" as opposed to "here's an age-based breakdown of ways to build self-esteem". Even then, the "enlightened" example is missing loads of other conditions, like if the person suffered emotional abuse or has automatic negative thoughts.
Also, banning score-keeping is the naive approach. I think an interesting one would be to add a game score & encourage both teams to collaborate to increase it. I don't know how it'd effect things, but it'd be fun to find out!
I think the natural bias to put discrete values on things existing on a spectrum is where is all stems from. "We want to keep things simple, so here's this recipe for self-esteem" as opposed to "here's an age-based breakdown of ways to build self-esteem". Even then, the "enlightened" example is missing loads of other conditions, like if the person suffered emotional abuse or has automatic negative thoughts.
Also, banning score-keeping is the naive approach. I think an interesting one would be to add a game score & encourage both teams to collaborate to increase it. I don't know how it'd effect things, but it'd be fun to find out!
Now that you mention it, I do weekly timed runs (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/), and I definitely treasure my "ribbon" (the email I receive confirming my time and position).
I time the runs myself on my phone so the email has little real purpose, but for some reason it's very satisfying to know that my efforts have been logged in a database.
I'm unlikely to ever hit the top 20, so this is very much a participation trophy. Maybe they can be motivating after all?
I time the runs myself on my phone so the email has little real purpose, but for some reason it's very satisfying to know that my efforts have been logged in a database.
I'm unlikely to ever hit the top 20, so this is very much a participation trophy. Maybe they can be motivating after all?
Participation isn't the same as placement & external motivators can be really useful in establishing habits. The question is will you stop running if the ribbons stop flowing?
This is an external reward to set the stage for internally valuing their fitness & learning how to use their body. Nothing wrong with it, as long as there's a plan for internalization. Ideally, they'll be taught those lessons & won't need the ribbons to get them out on the cold days 10 years from now.
(Take with a grain of salt. My only experiences with raising children involve raising myself & my parents over the past 1.5 years.)
(Take with a grain of salt. My only experiences with raising children involve raising myself & my parents over the past 1.5 years.)
Maybe they just compete with their peers on number of ribbons - which changes it from "participation ribbon" to an actual prize.
The best part is when kids compete for that last place ribbon. Makes for some ridiculous races where everyone is barely running.
This is a thing with professional athletes as well.
See for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterne_rouge .
See for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterne_rouge .
Parents on the side of sports games seems to be a problem the world over. I've heard of it directly in both Belgium and England with Football (Soccer) games.
Parents will subvert the will of the coaches wanting their kid to shine rather than as part of a team.
Parents and grandparents will continually scream to their children what to do or abuse at the referee.
Parents will subvert the will of the coaches wanting their kid to shine rather than as part of a team.
Parents and grandparents will continually scream to their children what to do or abuse at the referee.
[deleted]
agreed, and this happens in academics too. The helicopter parents who make their kids feel worthless outside of their GPA and ability to get accepted into the top 10 colleges, is disconcerting.
One of my college roommates parents was a Professor at MIT, and even though he got into an engienering school ranked right under it, his parents treated him liek the failure of the family and despite him being capable of great things, he had already been labeled as the failure in his family for ONLY having a 3.8GPA at the number 3 school in the world and mine as well work at McDonalds if he was going to destroy the family tradition of going to MIT, producing 45 patents, getting a PhD and writing 3 textbooks before the age of 30.
The kid was capable and accomplished an amazing amount but he really viewed himself as quite worthless and had a hard time getting a job after college due to his crushing lack of self esteem.
This is the opposite extreme but so is getting 35 trophies for a 5th grade soccer team.
I think both are extremes and the conversation needs to be recentered around the idea of grade inflation and positive self regard.
Again, you can have positive self regard for kids and NOT give them a trophy just for showing up to school. Theres a large medium here.
The biggest benefit of consistent positive self regard (which can exist without trophies and claps for every minor positive step in life) is the ability to prevent downward spirals where kids beat themselves up and begin to internalize the negative feedback and continually snowball their lack of self esteem to where they really handicap their ability to grow, as illustrated by my friend in the example above.
if a child is labeled as bottom 30% of the class or the team in middle school, negative feedback is more likely to keep him locked in the negative self image he has, instead of the belief by teachers that he/she has the ability to improve.
Regardless of if the kid will ever be the top 10% or is naturally more talented than the top 10%, thats NOT the point of continual positive self regard. The point is to continue trying and learning and self improvement. Labeling kdis in boxes really does limit their ability to grow and change their status and lets be honest, teachers are NOT always the best/the most right about knowing who is more intelligent and smarter, and these things can change alot from middle school to highschool.
You don't have to give the bottom 30% of the kids the same grades or trophies, but you can treat them with positive regard, and by doing that remind them they are human and that you believe in their ability to grow.
Nothing sucks worse than a teacher immediately writing off a kid as locked in a certain status range. They might actually begin to believe it, and if you don't beleive individuals have the ability to grow and learn beyond their initial casting/grade heirarchy then you really shouldn't be teaching and furthermore, I find these justifications by teachers more of an excuse for the fact that the U.S. is bottom ranked globally right now as a first world country for education. Youre a TEACHER. you job is to enable learning not say its just the way it is that the Straight A kids will always be the straight A kids and vise versa and really you have no control over it. If you feel that way, then please go find another job.
I would say negative feedback is far more damaging, and furthermore, the lack of negative feedback does not require trophies and delusional inflations of self worth that apparently according to the author also equal caccooning children from the consequences of life at every step. This is just false.
One of my college roommates parents was a Professor at MIT, and even though he got into an engienering school ranked right under it, his parents treated him liek the failure of the family and despite him being capable of great things, he had already been labeled as the failure in his family for ONLY having a 3.8GPA at the number 3 school in the world and mine as well work at McDonalds if he was going to destroy the family tradition of going to MIT, producing 45 patents, getting a PhD and writing 3 textbooks before the age of 30.
The kid was capable and accomplished an amazing amount but he really viewed himself as quite worthless and had a hard time getting a job after college due to his crushing lack of self esteem.
This is the opposite extreme but so is getting 35 trophies for a 5th grade soccer team.
I think both are extremes and the conversation needs to be recentered around the idea of grade inflation and positive self regard.
Again, you can have positive self regard for kids and NOT give them a trophy just for showing up to school. Theres a large medium here.
The biggest benefit of consistent positive self regard (which can exist without trophies and claps for every minor positive step in life) is the ability to prevent downward spirals where kids beat themselves up and begin to internalize the negative feedback and continually snowball their lack of self esteem to where they really handicap their ability to grow, as illustrated by my friend in the example above.
if a child is labeled as bottom 30% of the class or the team in middle school, negative feedback is more likely to keep him locked in the negative self image he has, instead of the belief by teachers that he/she has the ability to improve.
Regardless of if the kid will ever be the top 10% or is naturally more talented than the top 10%, thats NOT the point of continual positive self regard. The point is to continue trying and learning and self improvement. Labeling kdis in boxes really does limit their ability to grow and change their status and lets be honest, teachers are NOT always the best/the most right about knowing who is more intelligent and smarter, and these things can change alot from middle school to highschool.
You don't have to give the bottom 30% of the kids the same grades or trophies, but you can treat them with positive regard, and by doing that remind them they are human and that you believe in their ability to grow.
Nothing sucks worse than a teacher immediately writing off a kid as locked in a certain status range. They might actually begin to believe it, and if you don't beleive individuals have the ability to grow and learn beyond their initial casting/grade heirarchy then you really shouldn't be teaching and furthermore, I find these justifications by teachers more of an excuse for the fact that the U.S. is bottom ranked globally right now as a first world country for education. Youre a TEACHER. you job is to enable learning not say its just the way it is that the Straight A kids will always be the straight A kids and vise versa and really you have no control over it. If you feel that way, then please go find another job.
I would say negative feedback is far more damaging, and furthermore, the lack of negative feedback does not require trophies and delusional inflations of self worth that apparently according to the author also equal caccooning children from the consequences of life at every step. This is just false.
This needs to be required reading for everyone, especially teachers.
The Debugging Mindset - http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3068754
The Debugging Mindset - http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3068754
> I don't think it matters how much you believe in yourself
That's not what OP said. Quote:
> Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion
Self-compassion is not believing in yourself, it's accepting yourself as-is. And not just accepting in the sense of "settling for it". But having the same respect and nice feeling about you that you have about the others your like.
While outside validation helps a lot in one to avoid rejecting oneself, it just removes a (huge) barrier for building self-esteem. Self-esteem can't come from outside.
The problem with other people validating you is that as soon as you loose it, you loose what you though was self-esteem. And you get angry, you blame, you can't find solutions, and you ever give you all the responsibilities or remove yourself from all of them.
If you succeed and get praise, it then inflate your ego and narcissism.
But once you build self-compassion, even when you screw up, you still like yourself. But you can still see your fair part of responsibility in all this. And when your succeed, liking yourself as you are, you know what's really you, and what's really coming from outside help and luck. And you don't inflate your ego.
That's not what OP said. Quote:
> Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion
Self-compassion is not believing in yourself, it's accepting yourself as-is. And not just accepting in the sense of "settling for it". But having the same respect and nice feeling about you that you have about the others your like.
While outside validation helps a lot in one to avoid rejecting oneself, it just removes a (huge) barrier for building self-esteem. Self-esteem can't come from outside.
The problem with other people validating you is that as soon as you loose it, you loose what you though was self-esteem. And you get angry, you blame, you can't find solutions, and you ever give you all the responsibilities or remove yourself from all of them.
If you succeed and get praise, it then inflate your ego and narcissism.
But once you build self-compassion, even when you screw up, you still like yourself. But you can still see your fair part of responsibility in all this. And when your succeed, liking yourself as you are, you know what's really you, and what's really coming from outside help and luck. And you don't inflate your ego.
This is a great way to put it.
> Self-esteem can't come from outside
I do have to disagree here. Self-esteem ultimately must come from outside...just not from other people. As a Christian I believe that self-acceptance is rooted in knowing that I have intrinsic worth to God irrespective of what other people think of me. It's not about who I am or what I have or haven't done, but about who God is and what He's done for all of us.
> Self-esteem can't come from outside
I do have to disagree here. Self-esteem ultimately must come from outside...just not from other people. As a Christian I believe that self-acceptance is rooted in knowing that I have intrinsic worth to God irrespective of what other people think of me. It's not about who I am or what I have or haven't done, but about who God is and what He's done for all of us.
I'm not a believer, but I would assume that God is not outside (or inside, or in any location. As an absolute, this consideration feels like not applying to God. Hence can you define your relationship to God in a way that separate both from each others. Even the term "both" feels strange, as God is suppose to be everything and more.
Coming from that, the idea of the acceptance from God is a concept you have in yourself.
Maybe I got this wrong, intellectualizing spirituality is usually a terrible way to share about it.
Coming from that, the idea of the acceptance from God is a concept you have in yourself.
Maybe I got this wrong, intellectualizing spirituality is usually a terrible way to share about it.
If I can add some clarity, I think you inadvertently (1) blended Christianity with a kind of pantheism, and (2) took "outside" to only mean "not spatially colocated".
1. In Christianity, God is "present" everywhere only in the sense that there is no possible circumstance in which God would fail to have complete knowledge and power to act. We (Christians) do not believe that God is a sort of ether, like the Force in Star Wars, that contains or flows through everything.
2. Christianity teaches that God is not a material being, so you're correct in saying that God is not "inside, or in any location", because this would be category error, analogous to "what does the color yellow taste like?". Nevertheless, God is "external" to me in the ontological sense: "I am not (a part of) God". This is analogous to saying "my love for fast cars is 'outside' my love for ice cream". If this and (1) were not the case, absurdities would result, like tall people having more God in them than short people.
Given the above, I think projo is correct. My self-esteem is grounded in knowing that God -- a maximally great being -- created me, and loves me enough to submit himself to poverty, hunger, humiliation, and crucifixion on a Roman cross to fix what I broke. To those who "get it", this produces love, humility, and a sense of self-worth.
1. In Christianity, God is "present" everywhere only in the sense that there is no possible circumstance in which God would fail to have complete knowledge and power to act. We (Christians) do not believe that God is a sort of ether, like the Force in Star Wars, that contains or flows through everything.
2. Christianity teaches that God is not a material being, so you're correct in saying that God is not "inside, or in any location", because this would be category error, analogous to "what does the color yellow taste like?". Nevertheless, God is "external" to me in the ontological sense: "I am not (a part of) God". This is analogous to saying "my love for fast cars is 'outside' my love for ice cream". If this and (1) were not the case, absurdities would result, like tall people having more God in them than short people.
Given the above, I think projo is correct. My self-esteem is grounded in knowing that God -- a maximally great being -- created me, and loves me enough to submit himself to poverty, hunger, humiliation, and crucifixion on a Roman cross to fix what I broke. To those who "get it", this produces love, humility, and a sense of self-worth.
I think religions can lead to self-esteem in the way you're suggesting, though they may not provide a clear path to it, since many people don't "get it" even though they practice the religion. Religions also tend to require faith in a whole lot of things, which I think gets harder to do as the number of things to believe in grows.
That's why I'm working on a sort of abstract framework of being that includes a religion with a minimal number of prescribed things to believe in with a goal of self-development. Cultivating love, humility, self-esteem, etc. are all decoupled within the framework/religion to allow people to pick & choose only the parts they need.
That's why I'm working on a sort of abstract framework of being that includes a religion with a minimal number of prescribed things to believe in with a goal of self-development. Cultivating love, humility, self-esteem, etc. are all decoupled within the framework/religion to allow people to pick & choose only the parts they need.
When people are asked "what would God do in this situation" the place in the brain that lights up is the same as the "what would -I- do in this situation" region, so I think it's no different than before. Self-esteem is still self. It's just that in the monotheistic/polytheistic (not pantheistic) perspective, it could be considered external, although the mechanics are actually subconsciously internal.
Do you have a citation for that first claim? It fits my prejudices so neatly that I'd like to see the proof. I've tried to google a little for it with no success, so my apologies for any imposition.
Haven't read it & it's 8 years old, but here's this. Hopefully it'll point you toward better search terms. I used "what would jesus do brain imaging" without quotes.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/3...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/3...
Thank you both for the link and the google-fu tip.
Heh, I'm a Christian, and that still fits my prejudices. That's why I'm massively in favour of secular government.
The problem with that approach is a lot of people see no reason to believe in such a deity.
I think a similar problem is people viewing belief in nonexistent things as harmful. Another issue is religions tend to couple idealized personalities with higher powers when there may not be a need to do so.
The value of an idealized personality we choose to believe we can strive toward is to tap into and/or guide our intuitions in the moment, especially in times of internal/external conflict.
The value of recognizing/acknowledging the existence of uncontrollable higher powers in the world/universe is to instill humility & define one's own limits/boundaries.
The value of an idealized personality we choose to believe we can strive toward is to tap into and/or guide our intuitions in the moment, especially in times of internal/external conflict.
The value of recognizing/acknowledging the existence of uncontrollable higher powers in the world/universe is to instill humility & define one's own limits/boundaries.
Keeping in mind that that outlook generally includes things like "all meaning comes from christ" or similar platitudes.
this is true
You need self esteem from yourself and acceptance of yourself
but at the same time
it does not mean there is not benefit to continual positive self regard. I still stand that this term is fundamentally different than self esteem inflation that requires trophies and grade inflation and caccooning kids from consequences of their actions as the author writes.
You need self esteem from yourself and acceptance of yourself
but at the same time
it does not mean there is not benefit to continual positive self regard. I still stand that this term is fundamentally different than self esteem inflation that requires trophies and grade inflation and caccooning kids from consequences of their actions as the author writes.
The problem is that I don't think you can build a nice feeling about yourself, in a non-narcissistic way, if you receive a lot of negative feedback from your peers. So while I agree with your conclusion that self-compassion helps with self-esteem, I don't think you can get self-compassion without having peer approval.
I deeply disagree with this. I think the very measure of reliable self-compassion is precisely its immunity to peer approval.
I agree that getting there is hard when you lack outside social support. It's extremely hard. But the very goal is to escape the trap of your sense of self fluctuating volatilely by whatever social pattern you experience at any given moment. Those patterns necessarily change regularly, without end, and in unpredictable ways. The more you're beholden to them the more unstable you are.
Very few of us are masters at this. But I really believe the principles are compelling.
I agree that getting there is hard when you lack outside social support. It's extremely hard. But the very goal is to escape the trap of your sense of self fluctuating volatilely by whatever social pattern you experience at any given moment. Those patterns necessarily change regularly, without end, and in unpredictable ways. The more you're beholden to them the more unstable you are.
Very few of us are masters at this. But I really believe the principles are compelling.
Well, you might disagree with me, but I agree with you!
Jokes aside, I think that you can light a fire of self-worth given enough positive reinforcement. But there is always a limit on how long you can keep this fire burning.
Let's say you are really comfortable with yourself where you are, and suddenly move to a country with essentially diametrically opposed values and norms. Everything you have been taught is turned on its head.
How long do you stay confident?
This is just a thought experiment, but I think it highlights the volatility of self-worth.
Jokes aside, I think that you can light a fire of self-worth given enough positive reinforcement. But there is always a limit on how long you can keep this fire burning.
Let's say you are really comfortable with yourself where you are, and suddenly move to a country with essentially diametrically opposed values and norms. Everything you have been taught is turned on its head.
How long do you stay confident?
This is just a thought experiment, but I think it highlights the volatility of self-worth.
I can answer this from experience because I feel like I'm living this.
I've been developing a system around a theoretical model of how the mind/body/brain work together. I've been experimenting on myself using it with weird results. I've been hypothesizing things I didn't believe were possible until 8 months ago & before then I would've labeled people suggesting things I believe now to be bigots. One of these things is that everyone can learn to be gender fluid to varying degrees.
As I started exploring concepts related to gender for the sake of designing experiments in changing my gender identity, I accidentally created a second seemingly sentient conscious identity in my head of the opposite gender. When she emerged, we switched spots & I became the voice in the head. In an instant, I went from being a straight white cis-gender male to...? I still don't know how to classify this experience...it could simply be an advanced form of pretending. In Buddhism, it's called deity visualization & the modern westernized flavor of the same thing is called tulpamancy. I didn't know any of that when it happened, though.
In that moment, I joined at least one minority class of people: either "people who hear voices in their heads" and/or "people who are gender fluid."
And it's haaaaard to stay confident about what I'm doing because some people find it really hard to hear me talk about this stuff. Friends have called me a bigot. I was kicked out of a party at someone's home. I've been told by one neuroscience my ideas are meaningless because I don't have a degree & couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, completely denying my experiences.
I guess the question I have for you is what else would you say I need to go through before my confidence breaks?
This is a legitimate question. I want to try to break my confidence & I'm interested in realistic ways to go about testing it.
I've been developing a system around a theoretical model of how the mind/body/brain work together. I've been experimenting on myself using it with weird results. I've been hypothesizing things I didn't believe were possible until 8 months ago & before then I would've labeled people suggesting things I believe now to be bigots. One of these things is that everyone can learn to be gender fluid to varying degrees.
As I started exploring concepts related to gender for the sake of designing experiments in changing my gender identity, I accidentally created a second seemingly sentient conscious identity in my head of the opposite gender. When she emerged, we switched spots & I became the voice in the head. In an instant, I went from being a straight white cis-gender male to...? I still don't know how to classify this experience...it could simply be an advanced form of pretending. In Buddhism, it's called deity visualization & the modern westernized flavor of the same thing is called tulpamancy. I didn't know any of that when it happened, though.
In that moment, I joined at least one minority class of people: either "people who hear voices in their heads" and/or "people who are gender fluid."
And it's haaaaard to stay confident about what I'm doing because some people find it really hard to hear me talk about this stuff. Friends have called me a bigot. I was kicked out of a party at someone's home. I've been told by one neuroscience my ideas are meaningless because I don't have a degree & couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, completely denying my experiences.
I guess the question I have for you is what else would you say I need to go through before my confidence breaks?
This is a legitimate question. I want to try to break my confidence & I'm interested in realistic ways to go about testing it.
Well, my take on this is that you can't fight the system. But you can change system.
There are numerous books on change management in business, and most of them conclude that it's a lot easier to start a new company than to change an existing company culture. That is, unless the change is trivial (by various definitions of trivial).
Likewise I think you are better of finding more free minded people. You can burn yourself out trying to convince a single conservative person. And the alternative is that you find peers where you can share your experiences freely and spend you energy on your own voyage, not on the acceptance of it by your dissaproving surroundings.
By this I don't mean that you have to stop seeing these sceptics, just that you choose what you tell them. You have to adapt to your surroundings.
Of course it sucks to realize that you cannot truly be yourself in a certain group, but I think that is a sad truth that lurks in our society today. There is a reason why so many alternative thinkers flock to big cities.
I definitely don't believe that you are the only one feeling like this. Most likely there are many in your surroundings. But people put their needs aside to conform to the social group, and that is what they expect from you too to stay a member. If you don't want to live that life, you have to break free.
I wish you the best of luck!
There are numerous books on change management in business, and most of them conclude that it's a lot easier to start a new company than to change an existing company culture. That is, unless the change is trivial (by various definitions of trivial).
Likewise I think you are better of finding more free minded people. You can burn yourself out trying to convince a single conservative person. And the alternative is that you find peers where you can share your experiences freely and spend you energy on your own voyage, not on the acceptance of it by your dissaproving surroundings.
By this I don't mean that you have to stop seeing these sceptics, just that you choose what you tell them. You have to adapt to your surroundings.
Of course it sucks to realize that you cannot truly be yourself in a certain group, but I think that is a sad truth that lurks in our society today. There is a reason why so many alternative thinkers flock to big cities.
I definitely don't believe that you are the only one feeling like this. Most likely there are many in your surroundings. But people put their needs aside to conform to the social group, and that is what they expect from you too to stay a member. If you don't want to live that life, you have to break free.
I wish you the best of luck!
Thanks for getting the Queen song "I've got to bream free" playing in my head.
I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm actively suffering, but that I've recently experienced a complete 180 in a lot of my views & world. I value the experiences I cited and am not looking to avoid having them because putting energy toward appeals would be a recipe for burnout. The point I'm trying to make is I don't need their acceptance. I don't have to wear my status on my sleeve and can still bring it up when it's relevant. I'm most certainly not going to hide a key part of myself because of other's reactions. I actively challenge people's minds about what theirs is capable of simply through sharing my experiences and who I am. They can expect conformity all they want and they'll likely burn out before I do because denial takes more energy/effort than acceptance. Also, denial sticks in the mind, while acceptance allows you to move forward.
I really am interested in any ideas you have on social experiments I can conduct to prove/disprove your perspectives in this thread. Whatcha got?
I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm actively suffering, but that I've recently experienced a complete 180 in a lot of my views & world. I value the experiences I cited and am not looking to avoid having them because putting energy toward appeals would be a recipe for burnout. The point I'm trying to make is I don't need their acceptance. I don't have to wear my status on my sleeve and can still bring it up when it's relevant. I'm most certainly not going to hide a key part of myself because of other's reactions. I actively challenge people's minds about what theirs is capable of simply through sharing my experiences and who I am. They can expect conformity all they want and they'll likely burn out before I do because denial takes more energy/effort than acceptance. Also, denial sticks in the mind, while acceptance allows you to move forward.
I really am interested in any ideas you have on social experiments I can conduct to prove/disprove your perspectives in this thread. Whatcha got?
Let's say it's like being healthy. It comes from your behavior, but if people keep kicking you and force feeding you with burgers, yeah it's going to be quite hard.
Please read the next paragraph with an awareness of how you feel at each comma, period, and exclamation point.
I'm very grateful for your comments because they've advanced the conversation, given me specific things to reflect on, and ultimately challenged my perspectives, which helped me gain clarity around them. Thank you!
How did you feel at different points? I hope, ultimately, you felt a little joy from receiving some gratitude. Note: I'm not praising you, nor expressing approval/disapproval. I'm nonjudgmentally allowing you and your opinion to exist while saying what's true for me. The point is we can feel good about ourselves simply by hearing gratitude from others acknowledging our contributions. Approval doesn't need to be part of the equation. It can, however, help as a way to temporarily lower mental barriers getting in the way of building self-esteem.
Also, how are you defining narcissism? I'm asking because how you phrased your perspective implies self-limiting thoughts at play. Here's what I mean:
"I don't think I can build a nice feeling about myself, in a non-narcissistic way, if I receive a lot of negative feedback from my peers." - Our reality is defined by our perceptual sets, which includes our beliefs, emotions, motivations/intentions, and learned behaviors. Each component in a perceptual set can impact/define the others. What I've quoted defines a belief acting on a core component of well-being: self-esteem. If you truly believe what you typed, then you're applying that belief to yourself unless you also believe you're the only human who's figured out how to do the opposite. If applying this belief to yourself, it will inherently limit the actions you perform to develop your self-esteem while reinforcing the belief. Beliefs imposing unnatural limits can lead to persistent states of suffering, so I hope you can find another perspective.
I'm very grateful for your comments because they've advanced the conversation, given me specific things to reflect on, and ultimately challenged my perspectives, which helped me gain clarity around them. Thank you!
How did you feel at different points? I hope, ultimately, you felt a little joy from receiving some gratitude. Note: I'm not praising you, nor expressing approval/disapproval. I'm nonjudgmentally allowing you and your opinion to exist while saying what's true for me. The point is we can feel good about ourselves simply by hearing gratitude from others acknowledging our contributions. Approval doesn't need to be part of the equation. It can, however, help as a way to temporarily lower mental barriers getting in the way of building self-esteem.
Also, how are you defining narcissism? I'm asking because how you phrased your perspective implies self-limiting thoughts at play. Here's what I mean:
"I don't think I can build a nice feeling about myself, in a non-narcissistic way, if I receive a lot of negative feedback from my peers." - Our reality is defined by our perceptual sets, which includes our beliefs, emotions, motivations/intentions, and learned behaviors. Each component in a perceptual set can impact/define the others. What I've quoted defines a belief acting on a core component of well-being: self-esteem. If you truly believe what you typed, then you're applying that belief to yourself unless you also believe you're the only human who's figured out how to do the opposite. If applying this belief to yourself, it will inherently limit the actions you perform to develop your self-esteem while reinforcing the belief. Beliefs imposing unnatural limits can lead to persistent states of suffering, so I hope you can find another perspective.
I think you over-interpreted my statement juuust a little bit... ;)
I am simply criticizing the common norm of blaming the bullied person for not being cool enough.
I have no problems with my self-esteem and I think well of myself. But I am also not disillusioned when it comes to accepting the fact that you can only enjoy a happy life if you adapt to your surroundings. And if you stick your neck out to far you are going to get burned.
So yes, there are other ways of gaining self-esteem. By getting really self-confident about your own abilities regarding cellular automata or whatever. But not all those paths are going to make you a happy and relaxed person. You always have to consider the context you are in. Of course, both your source of self-esteem and your context are variable, but there is no denying that they both have big influence on your happiness.
I am simply criticizing the common norm of blaming the bullied person for not being cool enough.
I have no problems with my self-esteem and I think well of myself. But I am also not disillusioned when it comes to accepting the fact that you can only enjoy a happy life if you adapt to your surroundings. And if you stick your neck out to far you are going to get burned.
So yes, there are other ways of gaining self-esteem. By getting really self-confident about your own abilities regarding cellular automata or whatever. But not all those paths are going to make you a happy and relaxed person. You always have to consider the context you are in. Of course, both your source of self-esteem and your context are variable, but there is no denying that they both have big influence on your happiness.
Ah. Glad to hear I over-interpreted. Would rather err on the side of empathy than not.
Context can most certainly influence my happiness. There's still at least one step between context & its influence, though. You just named it: interpretation.
The trick is changing the thought pattern for interpretation. I changed mine on New Year's Eve & it's made all the difference. Here's my take...
Every moment is meeting some set of needs of mine. In the shittiest of moments, the potential needs being met, regardless of my awareness of them, are:
- learning how to better meet my needs and/or how to better empathize with those going through similar shit - gratitude for either of those needs being met - gratitude for the opportunity to learn how to better meet my needs
That last one is the default. I can always meet my need for gratitude. And gratitude produces joy, meeting a second need.
I avoid having a single point of failure in my system through also defining a purpose for my life to tie each moment to. There's other bits to it, but these are the most relevant ones here.
When I say needs, I'm referring to needs/wants, as described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs
This is also a handy list: https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory
Context can most certainly influence my happiness. There's still at least one step between context & its influence, though. You just named it: interpretation.
The trick is changing the thought pattern for interpretation. I changed mine on New Year's Eve & it's made all the difference. Here's my take...
Every moment is meeting some set of needs of mine. In the shittiest of moments, the potential needs being met, regardless of my awareness of them, are:
- learning how to better meet my needs and/or how to better empathize with those going through similar shit - gratitude for either of those needs being met - gratitude for the opportunity to learn how to better meet my needs
That last one is the default. I can always meet my need for gratitude. And gratitude produces joy, meeting a second need.
I avoid having a single point of failure in my system through also defining a purpose for my life to tie each moment to. There's other bits to it, but these are the most relevant ones here.
When I say needs, I'm referring to needs/wants, as described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs
This is also a handy list: https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory
Is it really self-esteem if it's contingent upon acceptance within the social group?
No, it's a misnomer in my opinion. And that hides a rather nasty twist in human relations:
In order to shun someone from a social group due to their non-conforming behaviour, the group cannot simply accept that they are willingly excluding this person. Because that would violate the basic premise upon which the group is built: comradery and loyalty. So the group must rationalize their behaviour by sticking all the blame on the individual being excluded.
You can go medieval and call someone a witch, or just be a bit more moderate and blame them for something vague like having "low self-esteem".
In order to shun someone from a social group due to their non-conforming behaviour, the group cannot simply accept that they are willingly excluding this person. Because that would violate the basic premise upon which the group is built: comradery and loyalty. So the group must rationalize their behaviour by sticking all the blame on the individual being excluded.
You can go medieval and call someone a witch, or just be a bit more moderate and blame them for something vague like having "low self-esteem".
Not wholly, but partially. It doesn't matter much if you believe in yourself when few others do. The social group is more verifying your self-esteem.
I'd say it's easier to rely on external validation in many cultures because anything not well-defined is hard to teach. Poorly defined subjective experiences are even harder.
Of course. Social group influences a lot how you perceive yourself. You can only establish a value of something by comparison.
I'm noticing some language trends in this whole thread worth pointing out:
- In OP, I wrote self-esteem is the root of narcissism, when I really believe it's a potential root. It can also be symptomatic because pretty much everything in the brain can flow both ways, so one person's symptom can be another person's cause.
- We tend to forget the importance of the word "can." I'd rephrase what you wrote as "Social group CAN influence a lot about how you perceive yourself." It doesn't have to.
Also, comparison isn't needed. Here's how I do it:
I recognize a few key facts:
- every person is unique in some way - every unique property of a person reflects something to be learned, even if the lesson is the opposite of said property - neural networks learn and apply learning - we are walking neural networks - the past is changed by observing the present
Therefore, everyone is valuable in some special way, including myself. My self-esteem stems from reminding myself that others' perceptions of my experiences do not define my reality, my value, or my past. Those are all mine to define and nobody else's. I don't need to compare my subjective experience with someone else's in order to value mine.
- In OP, I wrote self-esteem is the root of narcissism, when I really believe it's a potential root. It can also be symptomatic because pretty much everything in the brain can flow both ways, so one person's symptom can be another person's cause.
- We tend to forget the importance of the word "can." I'd rephrase what you wrote as "Social group CAN influence a lot about how you perceive yourself." It doesn't have to.
Also, comparison isn't needed. Here's how I do it:
I recognize a few key facts:
- every person is unique in some way - every unique property of a person reflects something to be learned, even if the lesson is the opposite of said property - neural networks learn and apply learning - we are walking neural networks - the past is changed by observing the present
Therefore, everyone is valuable in some special way, including myself. My self-esteem stems from reminding myself that others' perceptions of my experiences do not define my reality, my value, or my past. Those are all mine to define and nobody else's. I don't need to compare my subjective experience with someone else's in order to value mine.
Perhaps people get self-esteem from different sources?
Personally I think people conflafe self-esteem with confidence. The article and the subject of it are doing this, and I'm a bit surprised it's not mentioned.
"Unconditional positivity" will probably build confidence--faith in positive outcomes--but it doesn't appear to build self-esteem--high value or love for oneself.
And someone can be completely unconfident and have very high self-esteem...
But who knows: perhaps artificially-induced confidence can at least trick people into feeling like they love themselves. If it does, then good for them?
Personally I could see myself end up thinking, worrying and beating myself up about being fake or phony, but that's just me. I might say it's not for me, but I would try not tell them directly with a Dwight-from-The-Office demeanor: "Wrong. Self-esteem comes from..."
Personally I think people conflafe self-esteem with confidence. The article and the subject of it are doing this, and I'm a bit surprised it's not mentioned.
"Unconditional positivity" will probably build confidence--faith in positive outcomes--but it doesn't appear to build self-esteem--high value or love for oneself.
And someone can be completely unconfident and have very high self-esteem...
But who knows: perhaps artificially-induced confidence can at least trick people into feeling like they love themselves. If it does, then good for them?
Personally I could see myself end up thinking, worrying and beating myself up about being fake or phony, but that's just me. I might say it's not for me, but I would try not tell them directly with a Dwight-from-The-Office demeanor: "Wrong. Self-esteem comes from..."
Not only do they get it from different sources, but how they get it from those sources can be wildly different. There seem to be multiple definitions of self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-worth floating around online, so I won't address them specifically. I'd say they all generally deal with finding meaning in one's self & the world. And finding meaning is a deeply personal thing.
For example, I discover new meaning in my experiences by projecting their content/context into songs I'm listening to.
My take on tricking myself into something: if learning to love myself requires some level of confidence, temporarily inducing said confidence, can be helpful when combined with a practice for learning how to love myself. The trick is doing it with intention and then weaning off the confidence booster.
I already do this in various ways therapeutically. I was thinking about the second conscious voice in my head I accidentally created through my experiments & wondering if it's truly a second personality or if I'm simply playing pretend & naively fooling myself. Then I realized it doesn't matter because it's something helping me & as long as it's done in a transparent, authentic manner, nobody else has to care which it is, either.
For example, I discover new meaning in my experiences by projecting their content/context into songs I'm listening to.
My take on tricking myself into something: if learning to love myself requires some level of confidence, temporarily inducing said confidence, can be helpful when combined with a practice for learning how to love myself. The trick is doing it with intention and then weaning off the confidence booster.
I already do this in various ways therapeutically. I was thinking about the second conscious voice in my head I accidentally created through my experiments & wondering if it's truly a second personality or if I'm simply playing pretend & naively fooling myself. Then I realized it doesn't matter because it's something helping me & as long as it's done in a transparent, authentic manner, nobody else has to care which it is, either.
I agree.
The immediate conflation that positive self regaurd = caccooning growing adults form their consequences was a good thing to lump together and assume the readers would accept.
You can have positive self regard for kids and let them make their own decisions, experience mistakes and struggle to some degree to find their way out.
The idea that they need your negative judgment on top of the consequences life will hand them for their actions anyways is the logical flaw and conflation here.
The immediate conflation that positive self regaurd = caccooning growing adults form their consequences was a good thing to lump together and assume the readers would accept.
You can have positive self regard for kids and let them make their own decisions, experience mistakes and struggle to some degree to find their way out.
The idea that they need your negative judgment on top of the consequences life will hand them for their actions anyways is the logical flaw and conflation here.
> Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion
There was a HN article on that recently [0]
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/why-self-...
There was a HN article on that recently [0]
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/why-self-...
> External stuff produces other-esteem and yeah, it's the root of narcissism
Don't confuse root and symptoms, though. Excessive admiration contributes as much as exaggerated criticism throughout the childhood. If anything, the narcissistic personality disorder means a missing intrinsic self-esteem, which is tried to compensate by getting this from external sources - which somewhat "works", but not for long, so it must be repeated again and again.
Don't confuse root and symptoms, though. Excessive admiration contributes as much as exaggerated criticism throughout the childhood. If anything, the narcissistic personality disorder means a missing intrinsic self-esteem, which is tried to compensate by getting this from external sources - which somewhat "works", but not for long, so it must be repeated again and again.
Agreed. To clarify, I think it's a potential root of narcissism. I suspect there are multiple paths to NPD with other-esteem emerging as a symptom in some & a root in others.
Teach people how to respond not just to suffering, but negative self-criticism and though patterns. Recognizing negative thought patterns is a bit difficult though, from personal experience. It's quite subjective and can be very personal.
#2 sounds very much like Stoicism, as to some extent does #1.
Classical Stoicism (and not the "be an emotionless robot" nonsense it's often misinterpreted as) is very much like Buddhism & Nonviolent Communication.
Another great book on subject:
"Nurture shock"
Nonviolent Communication is a wonderful book.
The point wasn't to create any actual positive effect on the people. The point was to make them focus on life-long internal competition and quest for glory. They succeeded tremendously.
Did not finish ... article ... but must ... write HN comment ...
And yet...wrote...pertinent thoughts...not in article...but how...
I think one of the detrimental effects of the positivity movement is, it implies it's wrong and unnecessary to feel bad. Of course, if you feel bad for days on end, there's an ongoing clinical or situational issue. If certain external triggers consistently cause you to feel bad, you can dig deep to find the reason and start to address it.
But to feel bad as a short-lived (hours to a few days) reaction to an event at least partially within your control? Like getting a bad mark? Or screwing up a work project? It's completely normal and similar to the physical pain felt when you touch a burning stove. It's a stimulus "Oh this sucks! I don't want to feel like this again so I'm going to make X, Y or Z change to avoid it."
But to feel bad as a short-lived (hours to a few days) reaction to an event at least partially within your control? Like getting a bad mark? Or screwing up a work project? It's completely normal and similar to the physical pain felt when you touch a burning stove. It's a stimulus "Oh this sucks! I don't want to feel like this again so I'm going to make X, Y or Z change to avoid it."
I don't think it's as simple as you state here.
There were exceptions, but when I was in school, people who were getting bad marks were getting a lot of bad marks, and kept getting them. People who got good marks mostly stuck with the good marks. People who were bullied kept getting bullied day in day out.
That's ongoing, but each individual event you would say is "normal". I think it's a question to ask whether getting a bad mark on some test that some people are obviously better suited for than others is actually a moral failing and not a happenstance? Is being a bullying target a moral failing? (I say moral failing because the emotional pain for such events is often of a "I really fundamentally suck" variety)
It seemed much more reminiscent of a system where the attributes of children somehow fell into place and defined how much suffering each of them was going to end up with. I find it difficult to say anything good about this.
Maybe it's the opposite: the side effects of the failure of the self-esteem movement is that we're back to saying suffering is great and builds character, completely ignoring that it's not given out proportionally in the slightest.
There were exceptions, but when I was in school, people who were getting bad marks were getting a lot of bad marks, and kept getting them. People who got good marks mostly stuck with the good marks. People who were bullied kept getting bullied day in day out.
That's ongoing, but each individual event you would say is "normal". I think it's a question to ask whether getting a bad mark on some test that some people are obviously better suited for than others is actually a moral failing and not a happenstance? Is being a bullying target a moral failing? (I say moral failing because the emotional pain for such events is often of a "I really fundamentally suck" variety)
It seemed much more reminiscent of a system where the attributes of children somehow fell into place and defined how much suffering each of them was going to end up with. I find it difficult to say anything good about this.
Maybe it's the opposite: the side effects of the failure of the self-esteem movement is that we're back to saying suffering is great and builds character, completely ignoring that it's not given out proportionally in the slightest.
Penalties do build character, and there's no potential for achieving anything if there's no potential for failing.
We should be teaching kids that they can improve, and show them how good they are with honesty.
We should be teaching kids that they can improve, and show them how good they are with honesty.
But - where are the penalties?
My dyslexic friend who got straight Ds in school until he could drop out never saw a penalty, just a steady stream of discouragement. The kids who got bullied got bullied every damn day, usually for reasons they couldn't control.
I agree that the self-esteem bit is frequently absurd - my childhood soccer team wasn't allowed to keep score, but was still expected to practice and 'improve'. But I do worry that no one on either side is actually talking about giving kids opportunities and feedback. They're just adjusting the tone of a zero-opportunity environment.
My dyslexic friend who got straight Ds in school until he could drop out never saw a penalty, just a steady stream of discouragement. The kids who got bullied got bullied every damn day, usually for reasons they couldn't control.
I agree that the self-esteem bit is frequently absurd - my childhood soccer team wasn't allowed to keep score, but was still expected to practice and 'improve'. But I do worry that no one on either side is actually talking about giving kids opportunities and feedback. They're just adjusting the tone of a zero-opportunity environment.
I do agree, kids are not treated well overall. And the positivity trend was an improvement from the overall sadism that existed before.
I just pointed what I think are currently flaws. There are currently no penalties for bad behavior, and no honest assessment of kids abilities. There is also an incredible lack of optimism about the children capacity (they aren't told that they can improve), and (what I didn't post before) a lack of real-word anchoring of expectations - at a minimum, we should tell children that it's actually ok if they don't excel on everything, but they should work to excel on something (and some things are more important than others).
I just pointed what I think are currently flaws. There are currently no penalties for bad behavior, and no honest assessment of kids abilities. There is also an incredible lack of optimism about the children capacity (they aren't told that they can improve), and (what I didn't post before) a lack of real-word anchoring of expectations - at a minimum, we should tell children that it's actually ok if they don't excel on everything, but they should work to excel on something (and some things are more important than others).
Someone once told me that their definition of happiness was setting themselves goals they weren't sure they could reach and then exceeding them.
Kids don't need bullying. They don't need constant reassurance that they are wonderful. They don't need severe abuse when they fail.
But they do need constant challenges which are mostly achievable, with a few that aren't. They also need limits on their behaviour - as long as they're reasonable, fair, adult limits, not capricious authoritarian limits.
I suspect the underlying problem is the emotionally brutal and insanely competitive environment in schools - not just in academics or sports, but in "popularity" and status.
Promoting self-esteem is the wrong answer to that problem. The culture itself has to become more cooperative and less emotionally violent, and that's hard to do when it's a fair reflection of much of the adult culture around it.
Kids don't need bullying. They don't need constant reassurance that they are wonderful. They don't need severe abuse when they fail.
But they do need constant challenges which are mostly achievable, with a few that aren't. They also need limits on their behaviour - as long as they're reasonable, fair, adult limits, not capricious authoritarian limits.
I suspect the underlying problem is the emotionally brutal and insanely competitive environment in schools - not just in academics or sports, but in "popularity" and status.
Promoting self-esteem is the wrong answer to that problem. The culture itself has to become more cooperative and less emotionally violent, and that's hard to do when it's a fair reflection of much of the adult culture around it.
In addition, there's also the high-achieving students that basically get ignored because they're not a problem. I had a ton of behavioral problems in elementary school because I did well and was bored out of my skull... I only got attention when I acted out, so of course that's what I did.
Things didn't really click for me until I had a series of teachers who recognized that I was doing well and treated me like a person who was actually interested in learning.
I wasn't even an extreme case in my school system. One kid, who was generally regarded as the smartest kid in the school, got caught basically turning an SAT scam into a business. Ended up getting multiple Ivy League acceptances reversed. He didn't even need the money, he was just bored and liked the popularity that came along with doing SATs for the cool kids.
Things didn't really click for me until I had a series of teachers who recognized that I was doing well and treated me like a person who was actually interested in learning.
I wasn't even an extreme case in my school system. One kid, who was generally regarded as the smartest kid in the school, got caught basically turning an SAT scam into a business. Ended up getting multiple Ivy League acceptances reversed. He didn't even need the money, he was just bored and liked the popularity that came along with doing SATs for the cool kids.
Yep, I think we agree. "Self-esteem good" and "self-esteem bad" are generally two sides of the same coin - they both treat children's happiness as some nebulous thing unrelated to their actual lives.
I got a bunch of participation ribbons as a kid, but I certainly don't think they were anything more than a symptom of actual problems. There was a weird, pervasive unwillingness among adults to admit that maybe I was good at some things, and at others, and capable of improvement. I might have benefitted a great deal from someone telling me things like "Your art is bad, and you could get better if you tried to. Also, you're best-in-school smart, not best-in-world smart, there's a difference and it's a good reason to work harder."
I did eventually get that from some outside-of-school competitions, but it's weird that school couldn't provide that. It feeds into my 'youth rights' bit, even - we treat kids like they're just little blobs of emotion who can be controlled without needing to help them interact with the real world.
I got a bunch of participation ribbons as a kid, but I certainly don't think they were anything more than a symptom of actual problems. There was a weird, pervasive unwillingness among adults to admit that maybe I was good at some things, and at others, and capable of improvement. I might have benefitted a great deal from someone telling me things like "Your art is bad, and you could get better if you tried to. Also, you're best-in-school smart, not best-in-world smart, there's a difference and it's a good reason to work harder."
I did eventually get that from some outside-of-school competitions, but it's weird that school couldn't provide that. It feeds into my 'youth rights' bit, even - we treat kids like they're just little blobs of emotion who can be controlled without needing to help them interact with the real world.
That is one of the points they make in Living with Prozac. Americans expect people to be happy and positive, and if they aren't it is a problem to be fixed.
> One manifestation of this has been grade inflation
Pet peeve: there is no such thing as grade inflation because there is no grade after (or before) A.
What we're witnessing is much worse, it's grade compression where all grades move up with a hard limit.
Inflation wouldn't matter a lot, it would simply make comparisons between periods of time more difficult (we would need to "adjust for inflation").
Compression is much worse because it destroys information, namely, the difference between good and bad works in the same class.
If we had "price compression" in real life, society wouldn't be able to function (everything would cost the same).
Pet peeve: there is no such thing as grade inflation because there is no grade after (or before) A.
What we're witnessing is much worse, it's grade compression where all grades move up with a hard limit.
Inflation wouldn't matter a lot, it would simply make comparisons between periods of time more difficult (we would need to "adjust for inflation").
Compression is much worse because it destroys information, namely, the difference between good and bad works in the same class.
If we had "price compression" in real life, society wouldn't be able to function (everything would cost the same).
Talking to old timers when I was young (I'm getting to be an old timer), they were all graded on a bell curve in college:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve
That sounds great when the tests are hard, but when they're easy, if you got a B and you had the lowest B, it would turn into an F. Of course, the worse students (relatively) would flunk out of school. If you were in a batch of really bright students and you were one of them, that would suck.
When I went to college, I remember professors only applying the curve when everyone did poorly on the exam.
For what it's worth, my wife recently completed her college degree and it was about the same in difficulty as mine 20+ years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve
That sounds great when the tests are hard, but when they're easy, if you got a B and you had the lowest B, it would turn into an F. Of course, the worse students (relatively) would flunk out of school. If you were in a batch of really bright students and you were one of them, that would suck.
When I went to college, I remember professors only applying the curve when everyone did poorly on the exam.
For what it's worth, my wife recently completed her college degree and it was about the same in difficulty as mine 20+ years ago.
Should grades reflect absolute knowledge (e.g. if you have this grade then you are that good) or should they reflect relative ordering? With increasing competition, the relative difference of the top should become smaller. That is one factor.
Grades inflation happens because grades and having finished the school once you started now matter more to students then they used to. The techniques they often use (negotiation) are not exactly commendable, but it still had more to do with price and benefits of it then self-esteem and trophies when they were four years. old.
Grades inflation happens because grades and having finished the school once you started now matter more to students then they used to. The techniques they often use (negotiation) are not exactly commendable, but it still had more to do with price and benefits of it then self-esteem and trophies when they were four years. old.
> Should grades reflect absolute knowledge (e.g. if you have this grade then you are that good) or should they reflect relative ordering?
This is a can of worms all by itself, too. Grades can reflect
1) Absolute knowledge, but this unfairly favours students from rich and well-educated parents; 2) Relative superiority compared to your age group, but this encourages children to not help each other because they are afraid they're competing for a limited number of higher grades; 3) Speed of development, which is largely determined by genetics at any given age; 4) Effort, which is unfair to the bright students who have nothing to put their effort in to; or 5) Potential future ability, which is nigh impossible to measure and not necessarily even an important marker of anything.
There are many more options, and neither is obviously right. I don't think any of these really help with the issue mentioned in the article.
This is a can of worms all by itself, too. Grades can reflect
1) Absolute knowledge, but this unfairly favours students from rich and well-educated parents; 2) Relative superiority compared to your age group, but this encourages children to not help each other because they are afraid they're competing for a limited number of higher grades; 3) Speed of development, which is largely determined by genetics at any given age; 4) Effort, which is unfair to the bright students who have nothing to put their effort in to; or 5) Potential future ability, which is nigh impossible to measure and not necessarily even an important marker of anything.
There are many more options, and neither is obviously right. I don't think any of these really help with the issue mentioned in the article.
Option 1) is the right thing to do, only it's hard to accept for people who are prejudiced against having rich and well-educated parents.
Option 2) is also fine on small scale, but makes it harder to compare results between different schools, states, countries.
Options 3 - 5 are just dubious (how would you measure "potential future ability"?)
Option 2) is also fine on small scale, but makes it harder to compare results between different schools, states, countries.
Options 3 - 5 are just dubious (how would you measure "potential future ability"?)
>it's hard to accept for people who are prejudiced against having rich and well-educated parents.
No, it's problematic for people who believe an education system which privileges the rich is a recipe for systemic inequality.
Now personally, I don't think a grading system is the right place to address this inequality, but insisting anyone who does is just "prejudiced against the rich" is facile.
No, it's problematic for people who believe an education system which privileges the rich is a recipe for systemic inequality.
Now personally, I don't think a grading system is the right place to address this inequality, but insisting anyone who does is just "prejudiced against the rich" is facile.
Being rich is not a crime (although some social justice warriors try to make it so). Helping your own children get a good education is not a crime also.
I agree that there should be some form of help for the poor, but gaming the grading system is not the way to go.
Whatever you do the children of rich and well-educated will always be in top 5-10% of their class. We shouldn't promote equality by trying to bring them down, instead we should focus on bringing other students up, making the gap between top 5% and bottom 5% percent narrower.
I agree that there should be some form of help for the poor, but gaming the grading system is not the way to go.
Whatever you do the children of rich and well-educated will always be in top 5-10% of their class. We shouldn't promote equality by trying to bring them down, instead we should focus on bringing other students up, making the gap between top 5% and bottom 5% percent narrower.
Coming from Eastern Europe, I'm having hard time to grasp the "rich&educated" meme.
Over there, rich and educated is barely a poor correlation. In my experience, a lot of rich people kids were stupid and didn't have much academical success. Yet there were folks coming from poor but educated families who did really well. It's anecdata, but in my class it was ~ equal amount of rich-but-stipid and poor-but-smart kids.
The real privilege is parents' attitude. The attitude that education (not grades, but the real education) is important. This doesn't seem to correlate with wealth much though. A lot of rich folks built their wealth by working hard from zero. Which is frequently not education-heavy field and their mentality is not much different from barely educated handyman. While a lot of well educated people (teachers/educators, all kinds of office workers, engineers and whatnot) are not even middle class.
Over there, rich and educated is barely a poor correlation. In my experience, a lot of rich people kids were stupid and didn't have much academical success. Yet there were folks coming from poor but educated families who did really well. It's anecdata, but in my class it was ~ equal amount of rich-but-stipid and poor-but-smart kids.
The real privilege is parents' attitude. The attitude that education (not grades, but the real education) is important. This doesn't seem to correlate with wealth much though. A lot of rich folks built their wealth by working hard from zero. Which is frequently not education-heavy field and their mentality is not much different from barely educated handyman. While a lot of well educated people (teachers/educators, all kinds of office workers, engineers and whatnot) are not even middle class.
I'm from the US, and have no idea why rich/poor entered this discussion. My parents were very poor, but reasonably educated. I never picked up on any hint of a correlation between wealth and good grades.
HOWEVER, I saw an enormous correlation between wealth and going to university.
HOWEVER, I saw an enormous correlation between wealth and going to university.
I also belong to the poor-but-educated-parents so I know what you're saying. I would assume the explanation for people with poor parents doing worse is because the parents have less time to be involved. But if you want to know more there are numerous studies. :)
"Whatever you do the children of rich and well-educated will always be in top 5-10% of their class."
Any evidence for that - from what I've observed at the private schools in the UK that my son has attended is that the rich have plenty of kids who have problems or underperform academically - it just doesn't matter very much for them as their parents are rich.
[NB And by "rich" I mean seriously well off - tens or hundreds of millions]
Any evidence for that - from what I've observed at the private schools in the UK that my son has attended is that the rich have plenty of kids who have problems or underperform academically - it just doesn't matter very much for them as their parents are rich.
[NB And by "rich" I mean seriously well off - tens or hundreds of millions]
>gaming the grading system is not the way to go.
And as I said, I don't disagree with that. I just object to your asserting anyone who does is "prejudiced against the rich".
And as I said, I don't disagree with that. I just object to your asserting anyone who does is "prejudiced against the rich".
I think that you are right. I just found the topic of "what is it that we expect of grades" to be mildly interesting and I also think the answer should matter when we are talking about grading policy.
FWIW, in the UK, you can get A*s (A 'star').
We've had these for GCSEs (typically sat at around 16 years old) for ages, and they were introduced into A-Level in 2010.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCE_Advanced_Level_(United_Kin...
We've had these for GCSEs (typically sat at around 16 years old) for ages, and they were introduced into A-Level in 2010.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCE_Advanced_Level_(United_Kin...
A "grade 9" was also introduced in 2017, and that is higher than an A* [0], so some people refer to that as A* * (A star star) [1].
[0] https://ofqual.blog.gov.uk/2017/04/05/setting-grade-9-in-new...
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/shortcuts/2014/sep/14/...
[0] https://ofqual.blog.gov.uk/2017/04/05/setting-grade-9-in-new...
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/shortcuts/2014/sep/14/...
There is a big difference in the grades students are getting in the UK. I don't have an answer as to why but here are some examples for A level Chemistry. The links below give the tables with GCSE and A level exam results from 1993 to 2016.
In 1993 16.8% got an A and 10.3% a U
by 2016 8.4% were A* and 23.5% got an A (31.9% at A/A*) with only 2.7% getting a U.
http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm
http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/gcse.htm
In 1993 16.8% got an A and 10.3% a U
by 2016 8.4% were A* and 23.5% got an A (31.9% at A/A*) with only 2.7% getting a U.
http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm
http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/gcse.htm
EDIT: Oh I get it. Should have responded AFTER the morning espresso.
It shows an interesting conundrum. Tell kids—and even people—that their work is awesome and they won't strive; tell them the harsh truth and they won't try again. Bulk of my personal history consists of falling in the latter. I hated being mediocre, and in my school life, I barely tried anything; when I did, it only took a brief while to understand that I am not up for it.
What's the solution? It's not as easy as educating students about growth mindset or long-term rewards of failure. They wouldn't absorb it the way you intended. Most failures don't necessarily motivate to improve. In fact, I think they result in people dropping out. It takes a long series of failures before you accept it as a part of the process.
I have read many theories surrounding how we can make our kids strive, make them resilient, and compassionate. So far, none of them have sounded convincing. There are probably many hidden factors involved and I guess it mostly boils down to: environment and luck.
What's the solution? It's not as easy as educating students about growth mindset or long-term rewards of failure. They wouldn't absorb it the way you intended. Most failures don't necessarily motivate to improve. In fact, I think they result in people dropping out. It takes a long series of failures before you accept it as a part of the process.
I have read many theories surrounding how we can make our kids strive, make them resilient, and compassionate. So far, none of them have sounded convincing. There are probably many hidden factors involved and I guess it mostly boils down to: environment and luck.
You don't need to laud the outcome, you need to laud the inner part of the child that is striving to be better and that enjoys the process of doing the thing for its own sake. They need to know where they are, but discouragement is more of a sign that they're not enjoying the activity. When someone really enjoys something they like finding the flaws in what they're doing so they can get better.
I was far more discouraged learning French than Russian and Russian isn't exactly easier than French. The difference was that I was being forced to learn French against my (at the time) wishes. I just wanted to do math and play with computers - things that didn't discourage me.
Viewed from this angle the task of guiding children is different: How do we get them to enjoy the things we need them to learn?
I don't have an answer to that, but maybe its ok. Maybe children also need to learn that sometimes they need to muddle through something they hate, and maybe one day they'll change their mind about it.
I was far more discouraged learning French than Russian and Russian isn't exactly easier than French. The difference was that I was being forced to learn French against my (at the time) wishes. I just wanted to do math and play with computers - things that didn't discourage me.
Viewed from this angle the task of guiding children is different: How do we get them to enjoy the things we need them to learn?
I don't have an answer to that, but maybe its ok. Maybe children also need to learn that sometimes they need to muddle through something they hate, and maybe one day they'll change their mind about it.
> discouragement is more of a sign that they're not enjoying the activity. When someone really enjoys something they like finding the flaws in what they're doing so they can get better.
Are you sure this correlation is unidirectional? As a tutor, I frequently get people to enjoy things they didn't before simply by trying really hard to avoid discouraging feelings. In a way, a large portion of my tutoring is about getting people to enjoy the things they used to hate, because that appears to massively improve retention rate.
There's some more here if you're interested in how you get people to enjoy stuff: http://jorendorff.github.io/hackday/2013/tutoring/
Are you sure this correlation is unidirectional? As a tutor, I frequently get people to enjoy things they didn't before simply by trying really hard to avoid discouraging feelings. In a way, a large portion of my tutoring is about getting people to enjoy the things they used to hate, because that appears to massively improve retention rate.
There's some more here if you're interested in how you get people to enjoy stuff: http://jorendorff.github.io/hackday/2013/tutoring/
I've read that West vs East functions a bit differently. In the West we like to talk about the outcome, whereas in the East they focus more on the effort, which sort of ties into what you're saying.
> children also need to learn that sometimes they need to muddle through something they hate
Yes. Otherwise experience will do so, and not likely in a fashion that's pleasant or kind.
Yes. Otherwise experience will do so, and not likely in a fashion that's pleasant or kind.
There's a relevant TED talk about this on teaching 'grit' [0] (a mix of passion and perseverance).
I find her arguments quite convincing.
And I think like a lot of learning and any pathways in the brain - this is something you can practice with children, always trying to push them a bit further and making the pathways stronger.
[0]: https://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_duckworth_grit_the_powe...
I find her arguments quite convincing.
And I think like a lot of learning and any pathways in the brain - this is something you can practice with children, always trying to push them a bit further and making the pathways stronger.
[0]: https://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_duckworth_grit_the_powe...
I always learned that you should praise kids for what they do, not for what they are. So don't tell them they're smart, tell them they solved a problem well. You don't have to be the best at everything, but you should try to improve. It's not about where you rank on the list of best students ever, it's about what you do, what you accomplish. Don't compare to others, compare to yourself: is this better than before? If so, awesome! You got better at something!
For myself, I would think that the best way to compel kids (and adults) to be more interested in learning and personal development is to relate it to their sense of identity.
People want to emulate their heroes and live into who they feel they are. The 'school nerd' phenomenon is one we're probably most familiar with; if you start seeing your identity as being a 'nerd' of the school, you tend to live into it even more. If you can somehow leverage that effect, it can be fairly powerful.
And then of course, just making learning fun, entertaining and a normal part of life and not just for school would certainly help. I read recreationally very early on because that was just normal in my home environment.
Overall, I'd worry less about making students feel good or bad over individual tasks, and pay more attention to fostering their desire to be the kind of person that needs to learn.
People want to emulate their heroes and live into who they feel they are. The 'school nerd' phenomenon is one we're probably most familiar with; if you start seeing your identity as being a 'nerd' of the school, you tend to live into it even more. If you can somehow leverage that effect, it can be fairly powerful.
And then of course, just making learning fun, entertaining and a normal part of life and not just for school would certainly help. I read recreationally very early on because that was just normal in my home environment.
Overall, I'd worry less about making students feel good or bad over individual tasks, and pay more attention to fostering their desire to be the kind of person that needs to learn.
I very much agree on what you say. In fact I'd been in similar situation. So having thought about this a lot too, I'm thinking more and more often that it might make sense to do things even if it's "just" going to be mediocre. We don't have to strive on everything. Although eventually some things might go really well because one is truly interested in them.
Rewards can help but maybe it's sometimes better to reward oneself, e.g. by spending a lot of money on a breakfast after accomplishing something. But yeah, when you're in school, you very much depend on your parents.
Rewards can help but maybe it's sometimes better to reward oneself, e.g. by spending a lot of money on a breakfast after accomplishing something. But yeah, when you're in school, you very much depend on your parents.
Read up on Sudbury schools. The trick is to treat kids like real human beings. Don't tell them what to do beyond what is needed to form a functioning community and environment. Let them figure themselves out. Let them succeed and fail, be jerks (within limits that respect other's need for safety and support) and be angels, all under their own power. Don't worry about academic achievements as that stuff comes really easy once a person masters being a human.
Good leaders use both, sometimes the carrot sometimes the stick. A combination of praise and discipline to draw out the best results in someone. My best teacher at high school was liberal with his praise but if you slacked off you'd soon know about it.
I think that blaming current narcissistic trends on this guy is extremely naive: as so many others point out these are pervasive all over the western world. And it ignores more fundamental changes, like the growth of private mass media which is now ubiquitous, the permeation of the advertising language into our daily lives, the take-over of the Internet by corporations that profit precisely from our individualization, and other consequences of a decades long ideological war on any form of collectivist thought.
This is a very good point. The author is promoting his book about self-obsession, but conflating self-obsession with self-esteem seems wrong. They are surely linked, but are different things.
In fact, people with low self-esteem are more likely to appear self-obsessed because they need validation and reassurance from other people. They literally spend more time in their own heads, worrying about what others think of them.
If you have a solid core of self-belief, you're less likely to care about others' judgement of you.
In fact, people with low self-esteem are more likely to appear self-obsessed because they need validation and reassurance from other people. They literally spend more time in their own heads, worrying about what others think of them.
If you have a solid core of self-belief, you're less likely to care about others' judgement of you.
Another hypothesis - kids now are overstimulated, their brains are saturated with new stuff, but have not time to process it deeply. The deep processes are mostly activated when there is nothing new to register - i.e. mostly when the child is a bit bored. When there is new interesting stuff the brain is preoccupied by registering it and have no time for any deep reflection.
This is not much different from our problems with too much food.
This is not much different from our problems with too much food.
"I like having low self-esteem. It makes me feel special." - Jane Lane, in Daria, after being sent to self-esteem class in high school.
I sort of feel like Daria should be required watching for any adult with a "genius new idea" for improving education and child-raising. If your clever new scheme wouldn't work at Lawndale, it's not going to work in the real world either.
As with many social reactionary trends, it seems like one flawed system (all spoils to the "winner") was replaced with another flawed system (there are no winners).
The former system tends to reward those who have inborn or socially provided advantages, and makes the prize the end goal rather than the process. This can result in winning-at-all-cost behavior, even if results in damage to oneself or society (i.e perf enhancing drugs).
The reactionary everyone-is-a-winner approach robs people of signal they need to optimize their efforts to succeed.
IMO a saner approach would be to encourage competition but not make suffering via social exclusion or destitution the cost of losing.
Intra-group competition within those bounds can make the group stronger, but left unchecked can do the opposite.
The former system tends to reward those who have inborn or socially provided advantages, and makes the prize the end goal rather than the process. This can result in winning-at-all-cost behavior, even if results in damage to oneself or society (i.e perf enhancing drugs).
The reactionary everyone-is-a-winner approach robs people of signal they need to optimize their efforts to succeed.
IMO a saner approach would be to encourage competition but not make suffering via social exclusion or destitution the cost of losing.
Intra-group competition within those bounds can make the group stronger, but left unchecked can do the opposite.
There seems to be several obvious mistakes in the article and in the original movement:
A. Idea that you can easily mold the core beliefs of other people by simply telling them to be like this or that. It's not generally true. But low esteem specifically makes it difficult to accept positive external feedback. Even when it's hard earned and genuine.
B. Treating human self image as one dimensional linear thing. Where on the other end you have narcissism and on the other complete self-worthlessness and ensuing violent depression.
The reality seems to be lot more nuanced. There are things like self-respect, self-compassion and sense of (potential) usefulness to others. None of these are hard linked to how good or bad you feel about yourself.
C. Some kind of misunderstanding of Narcissism. You can never turn normal healthy adult into narcissist by praising too much. (But you may cause some other negative effects.) Actual narcissist are often depressed themselves. Actual narcissist often aren't particularly interested in putting selfies to Instagram.
A. Idea that you can easily mold the core beliefs of other people by simply telling them to be like this or that. It's not generally true. But low esteem specifically makes it difficult to accept positive external feedback. Even when it's hard earned and genuine.
B. Treating human self image as one dimensional linear thing. Where on the other end you have narcissism and on the other complete self-worthlessness and ensuing violent depression.
The reality seems to be lot more nuanced. There are things like self-respect, self-compassion and sense of (potential) usefulness to others. None of these are hard linked to how good or bad you feel about yourself.
C. Some kind of misunderstanding of Narcissism. You can never turn normal healthy adult into narcissist by praising too much. (But you may cause some other negative effects.) Actual narcissist are often depressed themselves. Actual narcissist often aren't particularly interested in putting selfies to Instagram.
> A little more than a year later, Barrowford found itself in the news again. Ofsted had given the school one of its lowest possible ratings, finding the quality of teaching and exam results inadequate. The school, their report said, “emphasised developing pupils’ emotional and social wellbeing more than the attainment of high standards”. Somehow, it seemed, the nurturing of self-esteem had not translated into higher achievement.
Maybe Ofsted is measuring the wrong things.
Maybe Ofsted is measuring the wrong things.
Related question: does anyone have personal experience of significantly improving their self-esteem as an adult? Or is your level of self-esteem pretty much fixed as a child and something that needs to be "managed" in adulthood rather than changed?
I've done so.
I strongly encourage some kind of fitness routine or activity. I think a lot of cases of low self esteem come from a mind-body disconnect. And that allows for resentment or even hatred of your own body. That hatred may be subconscious or overt.
Actually engaging in a fitness routine undermines that dichotomy, particularly a skill based one. Coupled with the fact that pretty much everyone treats fit, attractive people way better in their daily lives, you rapidly build up a virtuous cycle of self esteem, fitness, and social approval.
I strongly encourage some kind of fitness routine or activity. I think a lot of cases of low self esteem come from a mind-body disconnect. And that allows for resentment or even hatred of your own body. That hatred may be subconscious or overt.
Actually engaging in a fitness routine undermines that dichotomy, particularly a skill based one. Coupled with the fact that pretty much everyone treats fit, attractive people way better in their daily lives, you rapidly build up a virtuous cycle of self esteem, fitness, and social approval.
Thanks, that's encouraging. I don't think it's the whole story because I work out fairly hard and still have low self-esteem, but it's good to know that change is possible.
No data to support this but self-esteem can absolutely be improved.
Two major components (there are many more) are:
1) Perceived inferiority (Self-Acceptance)
Everyone benchmarks their own life, success, skills, etc... against another group. Sometimes the choice of benchmark group is unrealistic, sometimes the person is just hanging out with a crowd where they don't really fit, sometimes it's necessary to take a step back and realize that comparisons to others don't really matter.
All of these can be improved by finding a better social circle (fit), attending different group activities, or reflecting on negative thoughts and re-framing.
2) Actual lack of skill/knowledge (Self-Improvement)
If the lack of self-esteem comes from actual gaps in knowledge or skill then the solution is to keep a running list of gaps and make an effort to improve them. A common item here might be fitness. Many people have low self-esteem due to sub par fitness and/or health habits and directly remedy the issue by embarking upon a fitness regimen. Another situation might be feeling incompetent in a specific area of domain knowledge and this one can be remedied through an active effort to read/learn/study and become competent in the troublesome areas.
Being honest with yourself (even if it's harsh), assessing your weaknesses, and working to improve them can go a long way to improve self-esteem.
Two major components (there are many more) are:
1) Perceived inferiority (Self-Acceptance)
Everyone benchmarks their own life, success, skills, etc... against another group. Sometimes the choice of benchmark group is unrealistic, sometimes the person is just hanging out with a crowd where they don't really fit, sometimes it's necessary to take a step back and realize that comparisons to others don't really matter.
All of these can be improved by finding a better social circle (fit), attending different group activities, or reflecting on negative thoughts and re-framing.
2) Actual lack of skill/knowledge (Self-Improvement)
If the lack of self-esteem comes from actual gaps in knowledge or skill then the solution is to keep a running list of gaps and make an effort to improve them. A common item here might be fitness. Many people have low self-esteem due to sub par fitness and/or health habits and directly remedy the issue by embarking upon a fitness regimen. Another situation might be feeling incompetent in a specific area of domain knowledge and this one can be remedied through an active effort to read/learn/study and become competent in the troublesome areas.
Being honest with yourself (even if it's harsh), assessing your weaknesses, and working to improve them can go a long way to improve self-esteem.
Yes, with myself and also with clients.
The biggest game changer is when you realize that success is not the possession of any characteristic or accomplishment but rather the ability to feel authentically.
When you know on a deep somatic level that all of your emotions are valid and sacred and aren't afraid to feel them it brings with it a deep confidence and connection.
The biggest game changer is when you realize that success is not the possession of any characteristic or accomplishment but rather the ability to feel authentically.
When you know on a deep somatic level that all of your emotions are valid and sacred and aren't afraid to feel them it brings with it a deep confidence and connection.
I don't really understand this, but it sounds very interesting. Could you expand upon it, or recommend any books or articles that explain the idea?
Alice Miller's "The Drama of The Gifted Child" is a good start.
Happy to speak with you directly as well.
Happy to speak with you directly as well.
I'm glad I scrolled far enough down my 'threads' page to see that you'd replied!
Thank you for the recommendation. I will check out the book and may also take you up on your kind offer to speak directly. Should I use the email address in your profile?
This is a topic of fascination for me, because I think low self-esteem has had a profound effect on my life. I'm interested in exploring any possible techniques for improving it.
Thank you for the recommendation. I will check out the book and may also take you up on your kind offer to speak directly. Should I use the email address in your profile?
This is a topic of fascination for me, because I think low self-esteem has had a profound effect on my life. I'm interested in exploring any possible techniques for improving it.
It is worth mentioning that the school in the article, Barrowford primary school in the UK, was given a 'Good' (2 on a scale of 1-4) Ofsted report [0] in 2012, then in 2015 (just after the 'heartwarming letter' went viral) this dropped to Inadequate (4) and the most recent report in 2016 had them back up at 'Good'.
It's also worth noting that in the 2015 'Inadequate' report, they specify that:
> Standards are improving and are getting closer to those attained nationally by seven- and 11-year-olds as a result of some well-targeted small group teaching, particularly of disadvantaged pupils.
So standards had improved, but they felt the need to lower the report from 'Good' to 'Inadequate'.
It's almost like the Ofsted were punishing them for getting famous.
[0]: https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspec...
It's also worth noting that in the 2015 'Inadequate' report, they specify that:
> Standards are improving and are getting closer to those attained nationally by seven- and 11-year-olds as a result of some well-targeted small group teaching, particularly of disadvantaged pupils.
So standards had improved, but they felt the need to lower the report from 'Good' to 'Inadequate'.
It's almost like the Ofsted were punishing them for getting famous.
[0]: https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspec...
Anecdotally I have heard of schools failing Ofsted for allegedly political reasons (ie they are still comprehensives and not on the government's preferred "academy" funding model; an assessment fail can force their hand at getting in line). I would take ofsted ratings for any comp with a pinch of salt.
I wonder how many times the goalposts were arbitrarily moved in that time. I don't doubt that the 'self-esteem' movement is bunkum, but holding up the results of Ofsted inspections as 'The Truth' which shows it to be so is laughable to anyone who's ever met a teacher in this country.
It's unfortunate that this guy polluted the memesphere with this. The research into the lifelong benefits of children having access to secure attachment figures is mindblowing -- would have been great if he got passionate about approaches that actually have big impacts.
You can build "self-esteem" from a variety of things, the most sustainable and healthy of which is from a deep sense that you can handle whatever emotions come up in your system and by extension, whatever life throws at you.
Building "self-esteem" on the fact that you accomplished something -- say, won a tournament or built a company and not on the experience of not abandoning yourself along the way is a recipe for unfulfillment and a string of other ills.
Healthy self-esteem is not built by giving everyone a trophy or protecting them from their own emotions but rather, helping children learn that they are accepted no matter what emotions they are having and thus learn to accept themselves no matter the emotional experience they are having.
As a former World Games Invitee, I can tell you that losing in competition is painful. For me, often debilitatingly so. And it wasn't until I was able to explore the roots of that pain response that I could heal old traumas from my childhood of my father giving us the silent treatment for days at a time after losing as a high school football coach and the unhealthy relationship he had with performance coming from farther upstream in our family system.
Our culture has created a false dichotomy of "positive and negative" emotions where we avoid conflicts, numb out with drugs, sex, TV, accomplishment, religion, food, conflict, drama, criticism and more. Our nervous systems don't feel safe processing anger, sadness, despair, and grief and so we turn to Psychiatry to suppress the symptoms vs. developing the capacity to be with our entire range of emotion and present experience.
You can build "self-esteem" from a variety of things, the most sustainable and healthy of which is from a deep sense that you can handle whatever emotions come up in your system and by extension, whatever life throws at you.
Building "self-esteem" on the fact that you accomplished something -- say, won a tournament or built a company and not on the experience of not abandoning yourself along the way is a recipe for unfulfillment and a string of other ills.
Healthy self-esteem is not built by giving everyone a trophy or protecting them from their own emotions but rather, helping children learn that they are accepted no matter what emotions they are having and thus learn to accept themselves no matter the emotional experience they are having.
As a former World Games Invitee, I can tell you that losing in competition is painful. For me, often debilitatingly so. And it wasn't until I was able to explore the roots of that pain response that I could heal old traumas from my childhood of my father giving us the silent treatment for days at a time after losing as a high school football coach and the unhealthy relationship he had with performance coming from farther upstream in our family system.
Our culture has created a false dichotomy of "positive and negative" emotions where we avoid conflicts, numb out with drugs, sex, TV, accomplishment, religion, food, conflict, drama, criticism and more. Our nervous systems don't feel safe processing anger, sadness, despair, and grief and so we turn to Psychiatry to suppress the symptoms vs. developing the capacity to be with our entire range of emotion and present experience.
What needs to be encouraged is genuine improvement. I think the child that came 14th should get recognition, if last time she came 33rd in the same field.
In addition, top performers should always be encouraged. Relative to their peers, they have achieved as much as they can, and that should be recognized and lauded as well.
In addition, top performers should always be encouraged. Relative to their peers, they have achieved as much as they can, and that should be recognized and lauded as well.
> At Barrowford, people learned, teachers were discouraged from issuing punishments, defining a child as “naughty” and raising their voices.
Tell a person that they're stupid every day and then ask them to apply themselves. They're not even going to try. Now call a kid naughty and then ask them to behave themselves.
Tell a person that they're stupid every day and then ask them to apply themselves. They're not even going to try. Now call a kid naughty and then ask them to behave themselves.
Tell them they're naughy when they behave naughtily, tell them they're nice when they behave nicely.
That sounds like a solid plan to me, and there's no reason to see why it would then be a problem to ask them to behave themselves.
That sounds like a solid plan to me, and there's no reason to see why it would then be a problem to ask them to behave themselves.
A kid that believes that he is inherently naughty wont even try nor has reason to try to behave itself. It is not even actionable command. Especially when it comes to little ones, telling them what they should do and then insisting on it work waaay better then any amount of hurting them (whether physically or when you try to make them feel bad).
The fact is, the spoiled generation has really lower criminality rates, violence rates, takes less drugs then supposedly better behaved predecessors. People love to compare worst students now with best students of their generation or with their idealized idea of how great they themselves were - ignoring huge amount of people who dropped out of the school knowing pretty much nothing and that was it. Meanwhile, current best students are actually pretty good.
It is not all down to parenting changes only, but given better objective results the nostalgia for good old times is not really fact based.
The fact is, the spoiled generation has really lower criminality rates, violence rates, takes less drugs then supposedly better behaved predecessors. People love to compare worst students now with best students of their generation or with their idealized idea of how great they themselves were - ignoring huge amount of people who dropped out of the school knowing pretty much nothing and that was it. Meanwhile, current best students are actually pretty good.
It is not all down to parenting changes only, but given better objective results the nostalgia for good old times is not really fact based.
From what I heard (based on recent research perhaps?) when it's about ability, you should praise what the kid does and not what they are, but when it's about morality, you should praise what they are, not what they do. If they're being good, that is. If they see themselves as a good person, they're more likely to be good. But if they see themselves as smart, they're less likely to work to accomplish anything, because it should be easy for them.
"A kid that believes that he is inherently naughty"
Occasional negative feedback doesn't create an inherent self-image.
"It is not even actionable command"
These are children, not puppies; children are perfectly capable of associating being called "naughty" with specific behavior.
You have very extreme views regarding children.
Occasional negative feedback doesn't create an inherent self-image.
"It is not even actionable command"
These are children, not puppies; children are perfectly capable of associating being called "naughty" with specific behavior.
You have very extreme views regarding children.
Negative feedback is much larger category then just telling someone "you are naughty". There was not mention of occasional in op post either. Most troublemakers are not making trouble occasionally - the kids who are real problem do unwanted things often.
"These are children, not puppies; children are perfectly capable of associating being called "naughty" with specific behavior."
Their implication about specific behavior being often "playing in sight" or "I wont please teacher so I will make myself funny so other kids like me at least". Or the implication does not matter, because behavior was down to impulsive or unable to control emotions (I am frustrated I act out so it gives me attention and it is already reflex at this point).
"You have very extreme views regarding children."
Nice try.
"These are children, not puppies; children are perfectly capable of associating being called "naughty" with specific behavior."
Their implication about specific behavior being often "playing in sight" or "I wont please teacher so I will make myself funny so other kids like me at least". Or the implication does not matter, because behavior was down to impulsive or unable to control emotions (I am frustrated I act out so it gives me attention and it is already reflex at this point).
"You have very extreme views regarding children."
Nice try.
If you think that's extreme I've got some Facebook Mommies groups for you to join.
> A kid that believes that he is inherently naughty wont even try nor has reason to try to behave itself
How did you make the jump from telling a kid they're being/acting naughty to a kid being inherently naughty?
How did you make the jump from telling a kid they're being/acting naughty to a kid being inherently naughty?
Any source for your very strong assertions that spoiled children have lower criminality rates, violence rates and take less drugs?
I meant "current generation which people consider spoiled".
But, overall upper and middle class kids who are on average more likely to be spoiled have better results then lower classes who are raised to be tougher if they are raised.
But, overall upper and middle class kids who are on average more likely to be spoiled have better results then lower classes who are raised to be tougher if they are raised.
Still I don't see any source. Your conclusion has no value given that there are many more important factors influencing the differences in criminal rates, etc. between middle class kids and lower classes kids compared to spoiling.
The education level of the parents is the first thing that comes to mind for example.
Ergo, unless you link some proper study that demonstrate that correlation, I don't think that you can write such unsubstantiated strong assertions to validate your theory.
This was my conclusion: "It is not all down to parenting changes only, but given better objective results the nostalgia for good old times is not really fact based." Not a single part of my comment compared spoiled kid with kid of same circumstances who was less spoiled.
If you are argue that current children needs to be insulted etc more because that is how it was done in the past, then bringing in measurable differences between cohorts is perfectly valid argument. There is nothing measurable to support that argument either. The past was not perfect and argument by idealized nostalgia is not facts based.
As much as it feels good to imagine how you got back to that kid and how that kid would behave better, it is as much fantasy as thinking that all behavioral problems can be solved by hugs. I will make one more unsupported claim however: insulting children is and was not about making them behave better - it was about making educator feel better.
If you are argue that current children needs to be insulted etc more because that is how it was done in the past, then bringing in measurable differences between cohorts is perfectly valid argument. There is nothing measurable to support that argument either. The past was not perfect and argument by idealized nostalgia is not facts based.
As much as it feels good to imagine how you got back to that kid and how that kid would behave better, it is as much fantasy as thinking that all behavioral problems can be solved by hugs. I will make one more unsupported claim however: insulting children is and was not about making them behave better - it was about making educator feel better.
You are not bringing any whatsoever proof of the better objective results that are caused by spoiling children.
Intuitively I would say that spoiling children is a negative factor and probably it is more true than your assertion.
You are seriously arguing against your own imagination. It is kinda like strawman, except you also lie about what I said.
Why should I defend the point I never made?
Why should I defend the point I never made?
[deleted]
That sounds like a very weak plan to me.
If someone does not behaves like you expect him to you should tell just that, but adding a label to it(insult) is extremely dangerous.
The reason is because there is something called the ego, that are the beliefs that someone has about herself. Those beliefs get ingrained by repetition memory like artificial learning.
English have a problem in the language not differentiating between being in a temporary state and being forever. In Spanish for example you differentiate between being temporary(estar) and being forever(ser).
In other words whether you tell a kid that she is temporary fat(está gorda) or that she is fat forever(es gorda) makes an enormous difference and impression on her mind. If you repeat so much that she is fat(forever) she will start to identify herself as a fat kid forever and whatever she does.
This is behind so many problems in adults.
If someone does not behaves like you expect him to you should tell just that, but adding a label to it(insult) is extremely dangerous.
The reason is because there is something called the ego, that are the beliefs that someone has about herself. Those beliefs get ingrained by repetition memory like artificial learning.
English have a problem in the language not differentiating between being in a temporary state and being forever. In Spanish for example you differentiate between being temporary(estar) and being forever(ser).
In other words whether you tell a kid that she is temporary fat(está gorda) or that she is fat forever(es gorda) makes an enormous difference and impression on her mind. If you repeat so much that she is fat(forever) she will start to identify herself as a fat kid forever and whatever she does.
This is behind so many problems in adults.
Kids are still trying to figure out their self-identity. Having them believe that they are naughty is not a good thing, as it will create a feedback loop.
They rule I've always used is to blame the behaviour (you're doing a naughty thing) if it's negative and praise the child (you're so kind) if it's something you want to reinforce.
They rule I've always used is to blame the behaviour (you're doing a naughty thing) if it's negative and praise the child (you're so kind) if it's something you want to reinforce.
Careful with "you are naughty" vs "you are being naughty", and the like.
Or "now you're naughty".
English is not my mother tongue, but obviously it shouldn't be rocket science to tell to your kid that what they did just now was naughty, not that I as a parent hate him for being infested with peccatum originale.
English is not my mother tongue, but obviously it shouldn't be rocket science to tell to your kid that what they did just now was naughty, not that I as a parent hate him for being infested with peccatum originale.
I believe the quote is saying the teachers were not permitted to call kids naughty, for the same reason you describe. Confusion caused by missing Oxford comma?
I was agreeing with the quoted statement, but the article was using it as a "we wrap kids in cotton wool" argument. I didn't make that clear in my post.
Another article in The Atlantic was published recently, mentioning John Vasconcellos. Kristin Neff thinks self-compassion works better.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/why-self-...
Neff also has a book https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004JN1DBO
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/why-self-...
Neff also has a book https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004JN1DBO
That article was posted here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958
428 points | 25 days ago | 148 comments
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958
428 points | 25 days ago | 148 comments
Vasco and his humanist priest had their Catholic theology all wrong, and their heresy had disastrous consequences. There is a tendency within Catholic circles to view oneself only as an irredeemable sinner. This fills one with shame and causes a sort of false humility that convinces oneself to reject all good things ("his professional success was at odds with how he thought of himself; he felt he didn’t deserve it"). One further effect of focusing excessively on one's sinfulness, rather than on the love of God, is that quitting sin is much harder. The priest's belief that man is inherently good is also heresy at odds with scripture.
The truth as the Church would describe it is that man is intrinsically sinful but has been redeemed through Christ, and that should fill one's heart with joy and gratitude. No, man does not deserve any good thing, but when good things happen they should be appreciated as gifts, not rejected out of shame. This is true humility.
Some claim that self esteem should instead be replaced with self-compassion. This is a good idea that is in line with Church teaching, since to see yourself as God sees you (with unconditional love in spite of one's faults) is to adopt a perception which is based in truth, rather than the self-esteem movement which is based on convincing yourself of the lie that you are unconditionally good.
The truth as the Church would describe it is that man is intrinsically sinful but has been redeemed through Christ, and that should fill one's heart with joy and gratitude. No, man does not deserve any good thing, but when good things happen they should be appreciated as gifts, not rejected out of shame. This is true humility.
Some claim that self esteem should instead be replaced with self-compassion. This is a good idea that is in line with Church teaching, since to see yourself as God sees you (with unconditional love in spite of one's faults) is to adopt a perception which is based in truth, rather than the self-esteem movement which is based on convincing yourself of the lie that you are unconditionally good.
I find the topic of self-esteem super interesting.
Somehow it seems to be one of the most fundamental factors of our well being and the course of our life. Yet we usually don't even try to measure it. Do I have below or above average self-esteem? I couldn't say.
Googling around brought up the "Rosenberg self-esteem scale" questionnaire. I tried it. Scored is 14. Which is considered low. Uh oh :)
Now what?
Somehow it seems to be one of the most fundamental factors of our well being and the course of our life. Yet we usually don't even try to measure it. Do I have below or above average self-esteem? I couldn't say.
Googling around brought up the "Rosenberg self-esteem scale" questionnaire. I tried it. Scored is 14. Which is considered low. Uh oh :)
Now what?
Well, you know, just be yourself, unless of course your are shit...
Also, do keep in mind that there are a lot of losers out there. Changes are your are a loser.
See, this is a silly road to take.
Also, do keep in mind that there are a lot of losers out there. Changes are your are a loser.
See, this is a silly road to take.
Self-esteem is obviously important, and low self-esteem can obviously be a problem.
However:
1) It is not the only problem out there; 2) Lying about somebody's achievements is not a good way to raise their self-esteem, in the same way as maxing out your credit card on indulgent purchases is not a great way to achieve happiness. It works, somewhat — just until it doesn't. 3) A better way to achieve genuine self-esteem is to solve objectively difficult problems, successfully. Tests and exams are not problems; they were meant to give you an objective feedback so you could adjust your priorities accordingly. The straightest way to unlink test results from self-esteem is to give them in private and discourage comparison. 4) Like in sport, self-improvement is what counts in life, not the compared results. You are better that you were a year before, and that's all that matters.
However:
1) It is not the only problem out there; 2) Lying about somebody's achievements is not a good way to raise their self-esteem, in the same way as maxing out your credit card on indulgent purchases is not a great way to achieve happiness. It works, somewhat — just until it doesn't. 3) A better way to achieve genuine self-esteem is to solve objectively difficult problems, successfully. Tests and exams are not problems; they were meant to give you an objective feedback so you could adjust your priorities accordingly. The straightest way to unlink test results from self-esteem is to give them in private and discourage comparison. 4) Like in sport, self-improvement is what counts in life, not the compared results. You are better that you were a year before, and that's all that matters.
My personal-often-difficult journey through life tells me this...there are at least two types of self-esteem, and probably several more.
Achievement-esteem of course has to do with the trophy stuff and doing things your peers can't do as well. I excelled at this sort of thing and have all sort of Al Bundy-type anecdotes I'm sure no one wants to hear.
The much more important type of self-esteem is the one that forms much earlier in life and is instilled by your parents love and devotion, and is the one that is much more important to your future-self's emotional well being.
My personal experience tells me this one drives addiction and probably many criminal behaviors as we get older.
As a proponent of the Einstein's block universe theory, I often wonder if everything is already baked in and we are just what we are destined to be anyway, so what does it matter how we feel really?
Achievement-esteem of course has to do with the trophy stuff and doing things your peers can't do as well. I excelled at this sort of thing and have all sort of Al Bundy-type anecdotes I'm sure no one wants to hear.
The much more important type of self-esteem is the one that forms much earlier in life and is instilled by your parents love and devotion, and is the one that is much more important to your future-self's emotional well being.
My personal experience tells me this one drives addiction and probably many criminal behaviors as we get older.
As a proponent of the Einstein's block universe theory, I often wonder if everything is already baked in and we are just what we are destined to be anyway, so what does it matter how we feel really?
Penn & Teller did a great episode of this on bullshit. Season 8, Episode 9.
The writer throws his credibility under the bus with this:
> On the downside, it also included a white man in a turban who predicted the work of the task force would be so powerful, it would cause the sun to rise in the west
White men in Turbans might be Gora Sikhs, who are sincere adherents of their particular faith, and are undeserving of this bigotry if the speaker was a member of the group.
Even if it was just a white man in a turban, so what? There is no minimum melanin requirement for wearing one. And how does that information advance the article's argument at all?
> On the downside, it also included a white man in a turban who predicted the work of the task force would be so powerful, it would cause the sun to rise in the west
White men in Turbans might be Gora Sikhs, who are sincere adherents of their particular faith, and are undeserving of this bigotry if the speaker was a member of the group.
Even if it was just a white man in a turban, so what? There is no minimum melanin requirement for wearing one. And how does that information advance the article's argument at all?
I think you are being a bit harsh here. Sure, the white man in a turban might be a totally normal person capable of carrying out good work. But in terms of probabilities, there's also a significant chance they are an esoteric new-agey type (in my mind). The latter possibility is confirmed by the "predicted the work of the task force would be so powerful, it would cause the sun to rise in the west" bit, which is the actually critical part of that quote. So the turban bit is included to give a fuller picture of this weird new-agey type who says ridiculous things like that, or so it seems to me.
The author provided no context for the sun rising in the west comment, which in every usage I've seen is a metaphor for a fundamental societal shift, not a literal astronomical prediction. The principle of charity applies there too.
The reality that a large number of Gora Sikhs practice the faith they were raised in undermines the new-agey argument, unless one is singling out their actual religion which is centuries old in it's current form.
The only other explanation for the comment is the appalling idea that a person should be ridiculed for adopting the culture of which they don't share the dominant adherents' physical phenotype.
The reality that a large number of Gora Sikhs practice the faith they were raised in undermines the new-agey argument, unless one is singling out their actual religion which is centuries old in it's current form.
The only other explanation for the comment is the appalling idea that a person should be ridiculed for adopting the culture of which they don't share the dominant adherents' physical phenotype.
I took a second look at that point as well. On reflection, I think the author's message was that it was a mistake from a matter of public perception of the group and the proposal. The idea was already extremely left-wing and having that image of someone supporting it kept it out there.
I think people on both sides of this issue like to blabber a lot about human psychology and high falutin theories. At the end of the day, in any domain, you have to actually implement your ideas, and actually show that they work. A broken system that sometimes works is better than an ideal system that has never been shown to work.
> To answer that, you have to go back to 1986 and the work of an eccentric and powerful California politician, John “Vasco” Vasconcellos
Funny that they don't really describe who he was or his political position (state senator).
I find it hard to believe that 1 CA state senator is responsible for a syndrome experienced in the U.K.
Funny that they don't really describe who he was or his political position (state senator).
I find it hard to believe that 1 CA state senator is responsible for a syndrome experienced in the U.K.
This is not a news article, but an excerpt from an upcoming book:
> Adapted from Selfie: How We Became So Self-Obsessed And What It’s Doing To Us by Will Storr, published by Picador on 15 June...
(Edit: note the author's begging the question in the subtitle.)
> Adapted from Selfie: How We Became So Self-Obsessed And What It’s Doing To Us by Will Storr, published by Picador on 15 June...
(Edit: note the author's begging the question in the subtitle.)
I couldn't help codependently caretaking everyone in this thread by attempting to other-esteem everyone through the upvoting of all comments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs is more complete
The entire system of institutionalizing your children to teach them to be functional is the root cause, never let whatever self-esteemers or new mathers or whatever goofy next educational horizon the principal learned in their post-doc educational studies class override the laborious, at times excruciating, but ultimately rewarding goal of tactical, immediate, and focused remediation of your children's emotional vulnerabilities.
Tangentially, this is what the book Frankenstein was all about, the effect of education on different individuals, the most memorable of the monster being educated only formally, presumably by being given 'you showed up ribbons', with no family support structure, and growing up... with a rotten brain.
Tangentially, this is what the book Frankenstein was all about, the effect of education on different individuals, the most memorable of the monster being educated only formally, presumably by being given 'you showed up ribbons', with no family support structure, and growing up... with a rotten brain.
So this must be where Barney came from. "Everyone is special" was such pablum.
Meh
1. "prioritising their feelings of self-worth, telling them they are special and amazing, and cocooning them from everyday consequences."
This annoys me, when people throw in an entirely new assumption at the end of a sentence "...cocooning them from everyday consequences"
You can entirely regaurd growing adults with positive self regard AND let them experience the consequences of their actions.
The worriesome part about this is the conflation that consequences = lack of positive self regaurd to the growing adult.
If you truly uncaccoon growing adults from consequences and let them experience the results of their mistakes, they don't need your lecture of negative judgment on top of it, life will be there to teach them, and you can positively regard them as humans that make mistakes, and by not caccooning them expect them to solve the problems.
I mean honestly, the parents who believe their kids need a lecture about every mistake they make and judgment are the ones who are known as helicoptor parents and actually those kids end up being the least capable of being their own advocates because their parents never back off and allow them to make their own mistakes and struggle to find their way out.
This is why the Standford admissions office did an article on this, supposed Helicoptor parenting which was basically Stanford having problems with all these kids with 4.9 GPAs, 87 AP exams, science fair admissions with PhD level work put into them, who were held to hardcore high standards all work no play no emotion work work work your life = your GPA and the school you get into, and saying these kids literally could not solve the simplest everyday life problems and their parents called the school everyday trying to micromanage them or argue with Professors if their kids got less than B+s on exams
Its also why after the Gunn highschool suicide incident, highschool kids posted online to the parents to "back off" and quit pushing their kids so hard.
It's hard for me to take the rest of the article seriously, but I read on...
This is to show the other extreme and REAL effect of the opposite of show no compassion, only regard growing adults based on their accomplishments relative to everyone else.
If you take this attitude in life youre not helping your kid grow, you suffocating them, and debilitating their own sense of life navigation. This isn't about them, its about YOU imposing your self worth and narcissism and identify and your own self worth on how far along you can get your kid in life, and you need to back off.
I've witnessed this first hand going to university, and was really disturbed by helicopter parents versus my upbringing which was not helicopter parenting at all. Never seen kids more miserable in their life. I'm not even sure it was their life, they were walking poster children for their parents to show society look what I can do. Very few times did I see the kids who grew up like this get to make any of their own decisions. Very sad.
2. Grade inflation IS NOT there to boost self esteem, its there to allow elite institutions to maintain elitism by getting ivy kids good jobs and preparing them well for exams.
2/3s of all grades made at Brown University are As. It's there so everyone can get good jobs at high end consulting firms if they choose to instead of using their Political Science degree for some less profitable career path where the need is great, and grades/competition/elite ivy names matter less.
GPA grade inflation is about highschools gaining and maintaining status to justify private school tuition, and college does the same equivalent but has the double incentive of increasing competition to admissions for more room to choose the cream of the crop, and increasing the dowry back to the school from happy and financially successful alumni.
Both appeals to the idea that
a. negative judgment from their parents or teachers is the only way to allow growing adults to experience consequences of their actions
b. grade inflation is for the self esteem boost of individuals.
are false and the rest of this article rides on these astounding assumptions the author assumes you will buy into
*Note: I do understand the everyone is a winner, and clapping for every extracurricular club your kid joins, and treating them like little geniuses who Harvard would be at a loss of not having because youve decided thats the case for your baby since he showed his genius capabilities by bring two months early on the growth scale for expected timeline for piecing legos together, and ever since youve just been doing your job by providing the best past of growth for your little genius...yeh yeh yeh I know that happens
but that has nothing to do with needing negative judgment to grow, or the motivation behind grade inflation, which is strictly for the long term financial benefit of the institutions providing it.
1. "prioritising their feelings of self-worth, telling them they are special and amazing, and cocooning them from everyday consequences."
This annoys me, when people throw in an entirely new assumption at the end of a sentence "...cocooning them from everyday consequences"
You can entirely regaurd growing adults with positive self regard AND let them experience the consequences of their actions.
The worriesome part about this is the conflation that consequences = lack of positive self regaurd to the growing adult.
If you truly uncaccoon growing adults from consequences and let them experience the results of their mistakes, they don't need your lecture of negative judgment on top of it, life will be there to teach them, and you can positively regard them as humans that make mistakes, and by not caccooning them expect them to solve the problems.
I mean honestly, the parents who believe their kids need a lecture about every mistake they make and judgment are the ones who are known as helicoptor parents and actually those kids end up being the least capable of being their own advocates because their parents never back off and allow them to make their own mistakes and struggle to find their way out.
This is why the Standford admissions office did an article on this, supposed Helicoptor parenting which was basically Stanford having problems with all these kids with 4.9 GPAs, 87 AP exams, science fair admissions with PhD level work put into them, who were held to hardcore high standards all work no play no emotion work work work your life = your GPA and the school you get into, and saying these kids literally could not solve the simplest everyday life problems and their parents called the school everyday trying to micromanage them or argue with Professors if their kids got less than B+s on exams
Its also why after the Gunn highschool suicide incident, highschool kids posted online to the parents to "back off" and quit pushing their kids so hard.
It's hard for me to take the rest of the article seriously, but I read on...
This is to show the other extreme and REAL effect of the opposite of show no compassion, only regard growing adults based on their accomplishments relative to everyone else.
If you take this attitude in life youre not helping your kid grow, you suffocating them, and debilitating their own sense of life navigation. This isn't about them, its about YOU imposing your self worth and narcissism and identify and your own self worth on how far along you can get your kid in life, and you need to back off.
I've witnessed this first hand going to university, and was really disturbed by helicopter parents versus my upbringing which was not helicopter parenting at all. Never seen kids more miserable in their life. I'm not even sure it was their life, they were walking poster children for their parents to show society look what I can do. Very few times did I see the kids who grew up like this get to make any of their own decisions. Very sad.
2. Grade inflation IS NOT there to boost self esteem, its there to allow elite institutions to maintain elitism by getting ivy kids good jobs and preparing them well for exams.
2/3s of all grades made at Brown University are As. It's there so everyone can get good jobs at high end consulting firms if they choose to instead of using their Political Science degree for some less profitable career path where the need is great, and grades/competition/elite ivy names matter less.
GPA grade inflation is about highschools gaining and maintaining status to justify private school tuition, and college does the same equivalent but has the double incentive of increasing competition to admissions for more room to choose the cream of the crop, and increasing the dowry back to the school from happy and financially successful alumni.
Both appeals to the idea that
a. negative judgment from their parents or teachers is the only way to allow growing adults to experience consequences of their actions
b. grade inflation is for the self esteem boost of individuals.
are false and the rest of this article rides on these astounding assumptions the author assumes you will buy into
*Note: I do understand the everyone is a winner, and clapping for every extracurricular club your kid joins, and treating them like little geniuses who Harvard would be at a loss of not having because youve decided thats the case for your baby since he showed his genius capabilities by bring two months early on the growth scale for expected timeline for piecing legos together, and ever since youve just been doing your job by providing the best past of growth for your little genius...yeh yeh yeh I know that happens
but that has nothing to do with needing negative judgment to grow, or the motivation behind grade inflation, which is strictly for the long term financial benefit of the institutions providing it.
[deleted]
My kids are in their early thirties now and grew up right in the middle of the "self-esteem" boom. We jokingly called the grade school they attended "self-esteem central" and this was back in the late 80s, so we (as parents) were very aware of what was happening at the time.
I think we knew even then that not everything about it felt quite right. My feeling around the absurdity of the 35 trophies for "trying real hard" at the time was that it diminished the very real accomplishment that actually winning something (for real) entailed. AND, the kids were never fooled. They knew exactly who had really won (as others in the thread have mentioned). So like all of these "reactionary" movements (as defined by a sharp deviation from what came before) they tend to pull too far in the other direction.
Most important for me though is the feeling that the movement had the basic idea perfectly right! I think it is hard for non-parents to understand the feeling of helplessness that a parent feels when they send their kids into the mad hopper of public school. You have raised and loved this little being for 5 or so years and now you are sending them to a place where you can mostly only hope that they will not be treated poorly (berated, insulted, hurt physically). So if the self-esteem movement did anything, maybe it raised the bar for the reasonable treatment of kids as fallible human beings that respond better to the carrot than the stick? I think it feels right to me. As parents we are just looking for a safe place for our children to learn stuff. Is it so much to ask that this place actually not suck?
As far as raising children with an eye towards "global competition," the argument can be made that there are diabolical ways involving mind-games, insults and cajoling that will breed more cutthroat competitors and that the adults raised this way are better equipped for the "real world". I say have at it. Parents can make that choice too if they want to. But I didn't want that for my kids, period. Make the "real world" the place you want it to be.