Ask HN: How can I find a good mentor?
How did having a mentor change your career/life? Where and how did you find that mentor?
26 comments
The book "Mastery" by Robert Greene does a deep dive into mentorship, including the process of finding mentors. I highly recommend it. I won't attempt to summarize it all, but one of the strategies outlined in the book involves building a relationship over time by making yourself useful to the person who you want to be mentored by.
Many of the most high-powered people aren't going to have time to just mentor people out of generosity, so I wouldn't rely on the kind of advice that involves hoping that you'll get a reply from a cold call request for mentorship. Make yourself useful to that person, save them time and they'll mentor you in order to keep you around.
But I recommend reading the book itself to get a better idea of how this works.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007V65PBK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
Many of the most high-powered people aren't going to have time to just mentor people out of generosity, so I wouldn't rely on the kind of advice that involves hoping that you'll get a reply from a cold call request for mentorship. Make yourself useful to that person, save them time and they'll mentor you in order to keep you around.
But I recommend reading the book itself to get a better idea of how this works.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007V65PBK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
I highly recommend this book as well.
One of my favorite parts talks about how the word "apprentice" comes from the same root as "apprehend", etymologically "to grasp with the hand".
Evolution has endowed us with mirror neurons -- a function of the brain that mimics what others must think/feel as you watch them perform some task. For a long time in human history, apprenticeships largely consisted of watching and imitating the master, with very little to no verbal instruction.
Watching a master at work can get you on the right track extremely fast since you don't spend as much time exploring inefficient paths or dead-ends, bumping into obstacles, and misusing tools.
Greene tours the apprenticeships and anecdotes of timeless masters throughout history and modern times. He can help you discover your natural inclinations, and navigate the power dynamics that govern your path to mastery.
One of my favorite parts talks about how the word "apprentice" comes from the same root as "apprehend", etymologically "to grasp with the hand".
Evolution has endowed us with mirror neurons -- a function of the brain that mimics what others must think/feel as you watch them perform some task. For a long time in human history, apprenticeships largely consisted of watching and imitating the master, with very little to no verbal instruction.
Watching a master at work can get you on the right track extremely fast since you don't spend as much time exploring inefficient paths or dead-ends, bumping into obstacles, and misusing tools.
Greene tours the apprenticeships and anecdotes of timeless masters throughout history and modern times. He can help you discover your natural inclinations, and navigate the power dynamics that govern your path to mastery.
You summed up the best advice. Make yourself useful to someone with the resources to mentor you.
Be prepared to go the extra mile; it’ll pay dividends not only through skills acquired, but forming life long relationships, which are arguably more valuable.
Be prepared to go the extra mile; it’ll pay dividends not only through skills acquired, but forming life long relationships, which are arguably more valuable.
I have little respect for this guy, who seems to write (in my opinion) slightly more learned than average self-help books for people who want to feel smart/amoral. Apparently he is a favorite author among prison inmates.
This may be a controversial opinion, but I think people put too much stock in mentors. They can be extremely valuable, no doubt. But often the advice they'll give is out in the world if you just know where to look.
I've found that carefully controlling the flow of information reaching my brain - reading books (not just business books - the classics, history, psychology, etc.), cultivating a Twitter feed of people that you look up to, blocking time on my calendar for thinking & deep work, etc. - has had an impact in my life greater than the impact that my mentors have provided. My problems are not as unique as I once thought they were; far more valuable to read someone's carefully considered written thoughts on a topic than fight to get 5 min of face-to-face time to hear the most general version of that advice.
But to answer your original question, you have to provide value to any potential mentor. The absolute worst thing that you can do is reach out and directly ask for someone's mentorship. This is like asking someone to marry you on a first date. The potential mentor has no idea if you're someone who is worth spending their valuable time on; someone they will be proud of and will want to be associated with going forward. A mentorship is a relationship - it's a two-way street. What do you bring to the table? Also, at the end of the day mentors pick people who remind them of themselves, so best to focus on what connects you (alumni networks come to mind as a strong example of this).
- Ryan Holiday has some more good advice on finding mentors here: https://ryanholiday.net/finding-a-mentor/
- And Tim Ferriss on contacting busy people: https://tim.blog/2008/05/19/5-tips-for-e-mailing-busy-people...
I've found that carefully controlling the flow of information reaching my brain - reading books (not just business books - the classics, history, psychology, etc.), cultivating a Twitter feed of people that you look up to, blocking time on my calendar for thinking & deep work, etc. - has had an impact in my life greater than the impact that my mentors have provided. My problems are not as unique as I once thought they were; far more valuable to read someone's carefully considered written thoughts on a topic than fight to get 5 min of face-to-face time to hear the most general version of that advice.
But to answer your original question, you have to provide value to any potential mentor. The absolute worst thing that you can do is reach out and directly ask for someone's mentorship. This is like asking someone to marry you on a first date. The potential mentor has no idea if you're someone who is worth spending their valuable time on; someone they will be proud of and will want to be associated with going forward. A mentorship is a relationship - it's a two-way street. What do you bring to the table? Also, at the end of the day mentors pick people who remind them of themselves, so best to focus on what connects you (alumni networks come to mind as a strong example of this).
- Ryan Holiday has some more good advice on finding mentors here: https://ryanholiday.net/finding-a-mentor/
- And Tim Ferriss on contacting busy people: https://tim.blog/2008/05/19/5-tips-for-e-mailing-busy-people...
The advice is out there, yes. But without a mentor, people tend to practice what they are already good at, so they seek our small improvements to their strengths instead of large improvements to their weaknesses. A good mentor will help you identify your personal areas of weakness, and guide you to improvements. A great mentor can do so in a positive way that feels empowering.
Also top talented people often can give you advice of the kind: "if you could only improve one aspect, you should choose this one", that IME is very useful.
I learned how to be a machinist from the owner of the local tool shop who was an ex-tool and die maker. I learned systems programming from various helpful people in IRC and people who have advised my internships. I learned physics from other grad students and my professor.
Just make friends with people who have the bandwidth. I also strongly disagree that mentors are overrated. They're necessary in some disciplines, and helpful in most. Learning without a mentor is like running open-loop. As a new student, you often won't even know the right questions to ask. How will you know what to google? How will you know if you're developing a bad habit?
Just make friends with people who have the bandwidth. I also strongly disagree that mentors are overrated. They're necessary in some disciplines, and helpful in most. Learning without a mentor is like running open-loop. As a new student, you often won't even know the right questions to ask. How will you know what to google? How will you know if you're developing a bad habit?
Reach out to people whose career path you admire on LinkedIn. Sure someone is going to be too busy, but there will be others who are generous. Remember, you don't want 'one' mentor, you want a village. I found my mentors via LinkedIn, talking to people at work I admire and also keeping in touch with professors long after I finished school. Good luck !!!
My list of potential mentors has more ideas in it than just my list of actual mentors, so here's both:
- A boss who regretted giving up coding to become a manager
- The most senior/productive engineer on my second project
- Lead Devs that understand delegation (really anyone who exhibits willness to groom you for success)
As far as broadening your horizons, there are a lot of non-devs who can teach you useful skills. Some of these relationships tend to be shorter but important:
- A boss with enough Agile experience to write a book
- Senior QA and NOC and UX people (your counterparts can teach you about collaboration)
- Senior QA people (test automation, and talking about test automation)
- Senior NOC people (how maintenance concerns and physics should inform software design)
- Multilingual people (grammar, internationalization)
Also look for anti-mentors. Wise men learn from the mistakes of others. If someone insists that certain work doesn't need to be done but the team keeps paying for those decisions, you should take a hard look at that.
I like to teach but my skills aren't that rounded and I'm usually juggling a lot of different things (I have trouble letting the ball drop so I tend to accumulate too many responsibilities.) If some junior person is already asking a lot of good questions I'll tend to scoop them up, because they can often be made into a primary contributor within 18 months with the right encouragements. I don't know how to teach instincts, or even if you can. I still try, and I help people be better, but with many I give up on them ever being good, and instead I focus on finding tasks they can be trusted with. My mentoring experiences are probably all cases of "when the student is ready, the teacher appears", both giving and receiving.
- A boss who regretted giving up coding to become a manager
- The most senior/productive engineer on my second project
- Lead Devs that understand delegation (really anyone who exhibits willness to groom you for success)
As far as broadening your horizons, there are a lot of non-devs who can teach you useful skills. Some of these relationships tend to be shorter but important:
- A boss with enough Agile experience to write a book
- Senior QA and NOC and UX people (your counterparts can teach you about collaboration)
- Senior QA people (test automation, and talking about test automation)
- Senior NOC people (how maintenance concerns and physics should inform software design)
- Multilingual people (grammar, internationalization)
Also look for anti-mentors. Wise men learn from the mistakes of others. If someone insists that certain work doesn't need to be done but the team keeps paying for those decisions, you should take a hard look at that.
I like to teach but my skills aren't that rounded and I'm usually juggling a lot of different things (I have trouble letting the ball drop so I tend to accumulate too many responsibilities.) If some junior person is already asking a lot of good questions I'll tend to scoop them up, because they can often be made into a primary contributor within 18 months with the right encouragements. I don't know how to teach instincts, or even if you can. I still try, and I help people be better, but with many I give up on them ever being good, and instead I focus on finding tasks they can be trusted with. My mentoring experiences are probably all cases of "when the student is ready, the teacher appears", both giving and receiving.
Some people go through education and work never getting a mentor. They are just a face in the back of the class, making up the numbers.
Other people can't make a step through life without having a quality mentor who wants to nurture them on to bigger and better things.
It is a bit like having people that are sexually attractive or not. Some people have no problems finding a partner, to be pestered wherever they go. Others can go their whole life without anyone expressing an interest. Due to human nature we don't tell the less desirable amongst us the awful truth that they are 'ugly/dull/boring/whatever' because we don't want to or need to hurt their feelings.
In mentorship there is often no benefit to the person putting in the time and effort. That teacher isn't going to get paid more or necessarily get any other return. That person on work placement picking up a mentor during a year out from their degree isn't going to return to the company doing the placement so there is no point in overly investing in them - but mentorship happens.
There are advantages in having mentors but there is also freedom in not having mentors or attracting them.
I also think that a formal, official mentor is never going to be a real mentor. The best mentors don't set out with prior experience and training in 'being a mentor' to mentor someone, it just happens. Sometimes it can only be after the fact that mentorship is recognised, a boss could be a boss whilst working for them but only later in another life chapter can the true extent of the working relationship be recognised.
Equally, someone doing the mentoring might not realise that is what they are doing. It can be an accidental thing. Imagine some loser kid who is an embarrassment to their mother and an academic loser joins a team for some work experience. They might get babysat by someone that has a hands-off approach, not into disciplining their charge. The change from fear of punishment and retribution to just having the space to do stuff professionally might make all the difference for the previously written off junior hire to flourish. The babysitting employee might not be trying to be a role model and great mentor but they could be perceived to be those things by their underling.
This does not do anything to answer your question, however, some people will naturally attract great mentors at every step of their development, others will go through life never finding anyone wanting to mentor them. My only advice is to change the variables, e.g. to do a new job or course, then show enthusiasm and confidence.
Other people can't make a step through life without having a quality mentor who wants to nurture them on to bigger and better things.
It is a bit like having people that are sexually attractive or not. Some people have no problems finding a partner, to be pestered wherever they go. Others can go their whole life without anyone expressing an interest. Due to human nature we don't tell the less desirable amongst us the awful truth that they are 'ugly/dull/boring/whatever' because we don't want to or need to hurt their feelings.
In mentorship there is often no benefit to the person putting in the time and effort. That teacher isn't going to get paid more or necessarily get any other return. That person on work placement picking up a mentor during a year out from their degree isn't going to return to the company doing the placement so there is no point in overly investing in them - but mentorship happens.
There are advantages in having mentors but there is also freedom in not having mentors or attracting them.
I also think that a formal, official mentor is never going to be a real mentor. The best mentors don't set out with prior experience and training in 'being a mentor' to mentor someone, it just happens. Sometimes it can only be after the fact that mentorship is recognised, a boss could be a boss whilst working for them but only later in another life chapter can the true extent of the working relationship be recognised.
Equally, someone doing the mentoring might not realise that is what they are doing. It can be an accidental thing. Imagine some loser kid who is an embarrassment to their mother and an academic loser joins a team for some work experience. They might get babysat by someone that has a hands-off approach, not into disciplining their charge. The change from fear of punishment and retribution to just having the space to do stuff professionally might make all the difference for the previously written off junior hire to flourish. The babysitting employee might not be trying to be a role model and great mentor but they could be perceived to be those things by their underling.
This does not do anything to answer your question, however, some people will naturally attract great mentors at every step of their development, others will go through life never finding anyone wanting to mentor them. My only advice is to change the variables, e.g. to do a new job or course, then show enthusiasm and confidence.
this is a designer's perspective: your mileage may vary.
I find it helpful to differentiate between a mentor and a sponsor, even if the line does blur between the two as a lot of times people are specifically talking about one. Of the two - a sponsor is better for career advancement, while a mentor guides you as a holistic person. Having both is ideal - and they can be separate, different, or the same people.
(people contain multitudes, as the saying goes).
Mentors were better for me in the early years immediately after college - a few art directors who sawed off some rough edges of the "design eye", taught me the basics of how corporations (and their politics) worked, gave me a variety of projects so I could slowly figure out what I liked/was good at (versus not). Good managers are essentially mentors for the whole team.
One of those previously mentioned art directors became a true sponsor - he continued to give me more high profile projects and strategically dropped my name in VP/EVP meetings so I could snatch up those coveted projects with the reasonable skill level I had. Survived two rounds of layoffs due to him, as well. These are the people that you can and must be loyal to - watch their back, and they'll watch yours and groom you in a good way. There's a lot to the art of soft power behind closed doors.
The where/how question is trickier because other than looking within my org, it was just a matter of vibes and who I connected with on general chemistry level. If you find yourself in water-cooler talks with an authority figure fairly often and both of you enjoy each other's company, odds are that they would make a decent one. Look for someone with integrity, who doesn't gossip but has that sixth sense for being right about org changes, and skilled in their own specialties.
I find it helpful to differentiate between a mentor and a sponsor, even if the line does blur between the two as a lot of times people are specifically talking about one. Of the two - a sponsor is better for career advancement, while a mentor guides you as a holistic person. Having both is ideal - and they can be separate, different, or the same people.
(people contain multitudes, as the saying goes).
Mentors were better for me in the early years immediately after college - a few art directors who sawed off some rough edges of the "design eye", taught me the basics of how corporations (and their politics) worked, gave me a variety of projects so I could slowly figure out what I liked/was good at (versus not). Good managers are essentially mentors for the whole team.
One of those previously mentioned art directors became a true sponsor - he continued to give me more high profile projects and strategically dropped my name in VP/EVP meetings so I could snatch up those coveted projects with the reasonable skill level I had. Survived two rounds of layoffs due to him, as well. These are the people that you can and must be loyal to - watch their back, and they'll watch yours and groom you in a good way. There's a lot to the art of soft power behind closed doors.
The where/how question is trickier because other than looking within my org, it was just a matter of vibes and who I connected with on general chemistry level. If you find yourself in water-cooler talks with an authority figure fairly often and both of you enjoy each other's company, odds are that they would make a decent one. Look for someone with integrity, who doesn't gossip but has that sixth sense for being right about org changes, and skilled in their own specialties.
I've been looking for a good mentor for 7 years and haven't found one yet. I think it really comes down to time and not many wanting to invest that much.
In a way it helps with growth not to have a mentor because you have to learn how to learn what you don't know yet, which creates more independence.
That said, still would have loved to have a mentor all these years, wish you the best!
In a way it helps with growth not to have a mentor because you have to learn how to learn what you don't know yet, which creates more independence.
That said, still would have loved to have a mentor all these years, wish you the best!
Exactly my thoughts on all grounds!
Have been going independent since 2013 but would've loved to have had a mentor along the way, or even now for that matter.
But I guess I'm old enough now to know what I don't know and then to learn it.
Have been going independent since 2013 but would've loved to have had a mentor along the way, or even now for that matter.
But I guess I'm old enough now to know what I don't know and then to learn it.
When I was coming up, "mentor" wasn't a thing. This was pre-internet. Nowadays there's a lot of wisdom published freely on various platforms like here, some sub reddits, etc... There are at times more or less chaff to sift through on one site or another so it's not entirely "free" ie takes time.
With the increasing prevalence of the idea I have wondered how a having a mentor may have influneced me over the years. Instead of finding my own way with the meager tools I've been able to discover on my own, could a mentor have allowed me to attain some goals more quickly? Then I look back and consider that any particular year or 5 year period my goals changed drastically (both professional and private). In retrospect I don't know that I'd have done anything different. Getting good advice is far different than following good advice.
With the increasing prevalence of the idea I have wondered how a having a mentor may have influneced me over the years. Instead of finding my own way with the meager tools I've been able to discover on my own, could a mentor have allowed me to attain some goals more quickly? Then I look back and consider that any particular year or 5 year period my goals changed drastically (both professional and private). In retrospect I don't know that I'd have done anything different. Getting good advice is far different than following good advice.
I am mentoring two guys myself and know a couple of friends who also have their mentees. If you are determined, you can achieve it by cold emailing people (this is how I got my mentees). Find a person, which has some skills or achievements that interests you (eg. he/she is a startup founder) and ideally you have something in common with them (eg. alma-mater, hometown, nationality, niche hobby etc.).
Then simply reach out on linked-in, introduce yourself, expand on something which you have in common to establish some familiarity and clearly state that you would be interested in some advice/mentoring to achieve your goals. You will likely get a reply that your mentor is too busy for this, but maybe he/she can spare an hour every other month, which would already be plenty and super useful.
Then simply reach out on linked-in, introduce yourself, expand on something which you have in common to establish some familiarity and clearly state that you would be interested in some advice/mentoring to achieve your goals. You will likely get a reply that your mentor is too busy for this, but maybe he/she can spare an hour every other month, which would already be plenty and super useful.
I'm not sure how much good feedback you can get from someone who never watches you work. You can absolutely get advice from people that helps you, but is it really that much better than reading books and blogs?
This is great advice. A lot of people are busy but there are some who are more than happy to be mentors, it's just a matter of finding them. Could become a numbers game which is worth it imo.
I think the hard part is finding your questions (you want to ask your mentor). Once you have them, finding answers is pretty easy. The best source may be books, because authors have thought hard about the answers. 2nd blog posts, because those people too had something to say on the topic. If you ask a random person anything you will likely get a random answer. 3rd find an expert on the topic of your question. Finding a mentor first and your questions only then seems backwards.
I think this is one of the areas in which an academic relationships are strong. Most (granted, anecdotal) examples that I've witnessed are a teacher/professor/advisor either moving into or with strong ties in industry mentoring a student (later possibly a direct employee). These relationships seem to be stronger and last for entire lives (well, at least as far as I can tell).
I've never really had a mentor and I'm honestly not sure what sort of professional relationship is even being described here. Is this like a professional parent who teaches you stuff and checks in on you and keeps you steered in the right direction, and steers you away from wrong directions? I don't think such a person exists, and if they did, I'd question both their motives and advice. Maybe this is a common sort of long-term professional relationship in other cultures or fields or something?
I understand why people who are in the early stages of learning about a career would want to know someone like this. How awesome would it be to have someone to help you make career choices. I guess I just assumed that it was always (understandable) wishful thinking on the part of high schoolers or CS undergrads who weren't quite sure how to get to where they want to go, or who don't know where they want to go yet and are seeking advice.
On the other hand I've learned an utterly tremendous amount from just about everyone I've ever worked with, including people way older than me and way younger than me. You can learn useful stuff about tech and life and careers from most people that you encounter in your desired career, and a lot of people you encounter outside of it. Nobody's going to have the answers you need for your own life, the best you can hope for is to absorb whatever kernels of wisdom you can from people you encounter that you respect. Maybe some of those people were micro-mentors, or just good people to work with, and hopefully at least some of them felt like they learned something from me too but who knows.
You can also learn tremendous amounts just from Internet forums like HN or Reddit. There's also tremendous amounts of BS or things that are irrelevant to you, but being able to sniff out the good stuff from amongst the garbage is a required skill these days.
The only dogmatic thing I'll say is don't believe anyone who's dogmatic about anything. If anyone tells you that there is One True Way to do anything, immediately doubt everything else that person has ever told told you (including me and what I just wrote). That you have to use this or that programming language, that you have to use this or that editor or tool or OS or API. There's no shortage of people in tech that aren't wired up to make the distinction between personal preferences and immutable laws of the universe. Just find what you like and dive into it headfirst. No amount of training or advice will substitute for self-motivated passion, interest, and curiosity, especially in the early stages of one's education or career.
I understand why people who are in the early stages of learning about a career would want to know someone like this. How awesome would it be to have someone to help you make career choices. I guess I just assumed that it was always (understandable) wishful thinking on the part of high schoolers or CS undergrads who weren't quite sure how to get to where they want to go, or who don't know where they want to go yet and are seeking advice.
On the other hand I've learned an utterly tremendous amount from just about everyone I've ever worked with, including people way older than me and way younger than me. You can learn useful stuff about tech and life and careers from most people that you encounter in your desired career, and a lot of people you encounter outside of it. Nobody's going to have the answers you need for your own life, the best you can hope for is to absorb whatever kernels of wisdom you can from people you encounter that you respect. Maybe some of those people were micro-mentors, or just good people to work with, and hopefully at least some of them felt like they learned something from me too but who knows.
You can also learn tremendous amounts just from Internet forums like HN or Reddit. There's also tremendous amounts of BS or things that are irrelevant to you, but being able to sniff out the good stuff from amongst the garbage is a required skill these days.
The only dogmatic thing I'll say is don't believe anyone who's dogmatic about anything. If anyone tells you that there is One True Way to do anything, immediately doubt everything else that person has ever told told you (including me and what I just wrote). That you have to use this or that programming language, that you have to use this or that editor or tool or OS or API. There's no shortage of people in tech that aren't wired up to make the distinction between personal preferences and immutable laws of the universe. Just find what you like and dive into it headfirst. No amount of training or advice will substitute for self-motivated passion, interest, and curiosity, especially in the early stages of one's education or career.
Check out platohq.com
I participate as a mentor there. Good community.
I participate as a mentor there. Good community.
I've found it to be incredibly rewarding to let the relationship develop organically. I try to have insightful conversations on Twitter and Linkedin. A very small portion of these conversations turn into strong relationships. Some people are on the lookout for "rising" talent and would initiate the relationship if they see you as one...
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