A NY School District Defies State, Plans To Proceed With Facial Recognition Test(buzzfeednews.com)
buzzfeednews.com
A NY School District Defies State, Plans To Proceed With Facial Recognition Test
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/daveyalba/lockport-school-district-defies-new-york-education
63 comments
Paul Graham has an essay on how (US) school is mostly used as a prison
"Mostly used as a prison" is a mischaracterization of that essay. The paper identified analogues between prison social behavior and school social behavior, and hypothesized that this shows that these patterns happen whenever a population is put in a society without their choice.
He literally call schools prisons:
"What bothers me is not that the kids are kept in prisons, but that (a) they aren't told about it, and (b) the prisons are run mostly by the inmates."
Source: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
"What bothers me is not that the kids are kept in prisons, but that (a) they aren't told about it, and (b) the prisons are run mostly by the inmates."
Source: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
I nicknamed my high school "City Name High School and Penitentiary" much to the dismay of my teachers and parents.
It's only gotten worse since then. We didn't even have cameras in the hallways when I was in high school.
My kids (when I have them) will not be going to a public school with cameras in the hallways. They deserve the opportunity to be kids and not be hassled for it.
It's only gotten worse since then. We didn't even have cameras in the hallways when I was in high school.
My kids (when I have them) will not be going to a public school with cameras in the hallways. They deserve the opportunity to be kids and not be hassled for it.
A modest amount of reasoning will lead a reader to the understanding that this is a metaphor. What defines a prison:
* People are placed there involuntarily.
* Their freedom of movement is confined to the prison at all times (sometimes people serve prison on weekends, so I guess that's an edge case).
* They are put there because they are criminals (or political prisoners, in the case of corrupt countries).
* They are intended as either punitive measure or because we decide society is not safe if certain people are allowed outside of prison.
Schools do not exhibit any of these characteristics. Attendance is not mandatory, as parents can homeschool their children or take them to private schools. They don't live there, they usually only attend from morning to afternoon during weekdays. The purpose is not punitive, it's educational.
Look at the quote in context. This is where prisons are first mentioned:
> Why is the real world more hospitable to nerds? It might seem that the answer is simply that it's populated by adults, who are too mature to pick on one another. But I don't think this is true. Adults in prison certainly pick on one another. And so, apparently, do society wives; in some parts of Manhattan, life for women sounds like a continuation of high school, with all the same petty intrigues.
> I think the important thing about the real world is not that it's populated by adults, but that it's very large, and the things you do have real effects. That's what school, prison, and ladies-who-lunch all lack. The inhabitants of all those worlds are trapped in little bubbles where nothing they do can have more than a local effect. Naturally these societies degenerate into savagery. They have no function for their form to follow.
(skip one paragraph)
> The other thing that's different about the real world is that it's much larger. In a large enough pool, even the smallest minorities can achieve a critical mass if they clump together. Out in the real world, nerds collect in certain places and form their own societies where intelligence is the most important thing. Sometimes the current even starts to flow in the other direction: sometimes, particularly in university math and science departments, nerds deliberately exaggerate their awkwardness in order to seem smarter. John Nash so admired Norbert Wiener that he adopted his habit of touching the wall as he walked down a corridor.
He puts schools, prison, and high-society wives in the same bucket because they are both communities where the members of the community did not choose to be a part of that community and there is very little constructive way to increase social status. The result is that changes in status is mostly destructive: one improves one's standing by pushing others down. It's not that "schools are used as prisons".
* People are placed there involuntarily.
* Their freedom of movement is confined to the prison at all times (sometimes people serve prison on weekends, so I guess that's an edge case).
* They are put there because they are criminals (or political prisoners, in the case of corrupt countries).
* They are intended as either punitive measure or because we decide society is not safe if certain people are allowed outside of prison.
Schools do not exhibit any of these characteristics. Attendance is not mandatory, as parents can homeschool their children or take them to private schools. They don't live there, they usually only attend from morning to afternoon during weekdays. The purpose is not punitive, it's educational.
Look at the quote in context. This is where prisons are first mentioned:
> Why is the real world more hospitable to nerds? It might seem that the answer is simply that it's populated by adults, who are too mature to pick on one another. But I don't think this is true. Adults in prison certainly pick on one another. And so, apparently, do society wives; in some parts of Manhattan, life for women sounds like a continuation of high school, with all the same petty intrigues.
> I think the important thing about the real world is not that it's populated by adults, but that it's very large, and the things you do have real effects. That's what school, prison, and ladies-who-lunch all lack. The inhabitants of all those worlds are trapped in little bubbles where nothing they do can have more than a local effect. Naturally these societies degenerate into savagery. They have no function for their form to follow.
(skip one paragraph)
> The other thing that's different about the real world is that it's much larger. In a large enough pool, even the smallest minorities can achieve a critical mass if they clump together. Out in the real world, nerds collect in certain places and form their own societies where intelligence is the most important thing. Sometimes the current even starts to flow in the other direction: sometimes, particularly in university math and science departments, nerds deliberately exaggerate their awkwardness in order to seem smarter. John Nash so admired Norbert Wiener that he adopted his habit of touching the wall as he walked down a corridor.
He puts schools, prison, and high-society wives in the same bucket because they are both communities where the members of the community did not choose to be a part of that community and there is very little constructive way to increase social status. The result is that changes in status is mostly destructive: one improves one's standing by pushing others down. It's not that "schools are used as prisons".
>Schools do not exhibit any of these characteristics.
This isn't a metaphor. Schools exhibit all of those characteristics. By your own definitions:
* People are placed there involuntarily.
Private and homeschooling is an edge case, but a red herring at that: it's nearly never the kid's choice as to which school they will go to, and (in some jurisdictions) they'll be hunted down and forcefully returned if they skip, in exceptional cases by men with guns. That's what "placed there involuntarily" means.
* Their freedom of movement is confined to the prison at all times (sometimes people serve prison on weekends, so I guess that's an edge case).
School rules generally prohibit leaving and punish violations with further confinement to the school if this rule is violated. High schools are slightly more relaxed about this but attendance is still enforced, in the more extreme cases by sending a man with a gun to apprehend you and return you to school. Again, exactly like a prison; the only reason students aren't locked in is because doing that would break fire codes.
* They are put there because they are criminals (or political prisoners, in the case of corrupt countries).
They are put there because, exactly like criminals and political prisoners, Society has decided that until a certain age they are not people and we can (mis)treat them however we wish. This isn't to make a judgment of whether or not this view is correct; but if you define "person" as a being that has the capacity to question and protest its station in life there are many "persons" held without cause in that underclass.
* They are intended as either punitive measure or because we decide society is not safe if certain people are allowed outside of prison.
We decided that the subsection of society that students comprise are not safe if they are allowed outside of school (and to the point that a lack of public schooling would affect literacy rates and the ability to participate in civil society, we're right).
Identical justifications are used to imprison political prisoners. "The purpose is not punitive, it's educational." is how their imprisonment and treatment are typically justified, too.
This isn't a metaphor. Schools exhibit all of those characteristics. By your own definitions:
* People are placed there involuntarily.
Private and homeschooling is an edge case, but a red herring at that: it's nearly never the kid's choice as to which school they will go to, and (in some jurisdictions) they'll be hunted down and forcefully returned if they skip, in exceptional cases by men with guns. That's what "placed there involuntarily" means.
* Their freedom of movement is confined to the prison at all times (sometimes people serve prison on weekends, so I guess that's an edge case).
School rules generally prohibit leaving and punish violations with further confinement to the school if this rule is violated. High schools are slightly more relaxed about this but attendance is still enforced, in the more extreme cases by sending a man with a gun to apprehend you and return you to school. Again, exactly like a prison; the only reason students aren't locked in is because doing that would break fire codes.
* They are put there because they are criminals (or political prisoners, in the case of corrupt countries).
They are put there because, exactly like criminals and political prisoners, Society has decided that until a certain age they are not people and we can (mis)treat them however we wish. This isn't to make a judgment of whether or not this view is correct; but if you define "person" as a being that has the capacity to question and protest its station in life there are many "persons" held without cause in that underclass.
* They are intended as either punitive measure or because we decide society is not safe if certain people are allowed outside of prison.
We decided that the subsection of society that students comprise are not safe if they are allowed outside of school (and to the point that a lack of public schooling would affect literacy rates and the ability to participate in civil society, we're right).
Identical justifications are used to imprison political prisoners. "The purpose is not punitive, it's educational." is how their imprisonment and treatment are typically justified, too.
Public Schools force you to deal with a wide cross-section of society, especially compared to private schools (mainly mid to upper crust society) and colleges (people are there by choice, often after being part of the workforce and deciding to further themselves).
In many ways K-12 schools are run like prisons, with administrators playing god and throwing fits when challenged about their petty actions, students trapped in an environment not of their choosing, and society enforcing this structure.
I wish there were more diverse options for schooling, as I would've been much more interested in K-12 school had I been encouraged to dive into a subject, then asked to prove my knowledge, without the distraction of other subjects splitting my focus. College definitely offers much more flexibility in this regard, which has made for a much better experience.
In many ways K-12 schools are run like prisons, with administrators playing god and throwing fits when challenged about their petty actions, students trapped in an environment not of their choosing, and society enforcing this structure.
I wish there were more diverse options for schooling, as I would've been much more interested in K-12 school had I been encouraged to dive into a subject, then asked to prove my knowledge, without the distraction of other subjects splitting my focus. College definitely offers much more flexibility in this regard, which has made for a much better experience.
Depends on where you went to public school. My southern Bay Area public schools consisted almost exclusively of well off students because of housing prices.
Sounds like an extreme outlier, areas with such concentrated wealth which has crowded out the working class and lower-middle class are rare, most students will never attend a school like that.
It’s an outlier, but not really an extreme one: I don’t think my school differs significantly from the several dozen that are present in gentrified neighborhoods across the state.
There are nearly 1000 high schools in California, few students will ever be in the gentrified schools you speak of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high_schools_in_Califo...
45% of students in California are poor or slightly above poor: https://www.ppic.org/publication/child-poverty-in-california...
45% of students in California are poor or slightly above poor: https://www.ppic.org/publication/child-poverty-in-california...
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Is anyone truly 'part of a society's by choice though?
The stated aims of the system are easily covertly expanded (and there is ample history to indicate that will happen) to turn the school into a panopticon, building a social graph and personality profile of kids as they grow up.
To me this looks like an openly hostile act.
To me this looks like an openly hostile act.
If the kids are allowed to know their "social scores" many of them will compete to get the lowest to be cool. I kind of hope the administrators make this mistake. It would give me great Schadenfreude.
I thought only Communist China had social scores. Has it spread to the USA too?
If it allows the school to accurately identify the most promising students it's worth it. How many kids with potential fall through the cracks now?
All[1] of them. All the kids. They all have the potential for fulfilling lives that contribute to society.
[1] Fine, almost all, there will be exceptions, but the goals of the education system should include making exceptions as rare as possible. At the very least I'll claim a belief that achieving a low enough rate of exceptions so as to make them negligible in practice.
[1] Fine, almost all, there will be exceptions, but the goals of the education system should include making exceptions as rare as possible. At the very least I'll claim a belief that achieving a low enough rate of exceptions so as to make them negligible in practice.
Slightly better schools are worth this massive police state expansion? We could save many lives lost to crime each year if we forced everyone to wear ankle monitors all the time too - wouldn't that be even more worth it?
I look forward to hordes of teenagers pushing back against this - wearing hats, burkas, sunglasses, excessive makeup etc. etc.
At least, I sure hope they will.
At least, I sure hope they will.
It's already against the rules to cover your face in many schools. Besides, if the system can't recognize you, you will be marked as absent - so the punishment for defeating the surveillance system is the same as the punishment for breaking the rule it's intended to enforce. Those teenagers are dependent on the civic involvement of adults, they can't save themselves.
In the 90s/2000s we were taunted with a nefarious “permanent record” that recorded all our evil deeds. Do they still use that on students? It even came up in a few Simpson’s episodes.
Somehow I haven’t seen anyone actually be negatively affected by this supposed record.
Somehow I haven’t seen anyone actually be negatively affected by this supposed record.
'Internet' replaced the permanent record' and now kids who act up enough to get news coverage end up with a permanent record of whatever they did.
One minor difference: The permanent record was an official document. Twitter mobbing is a failing of our private citizens.
If the system is subject to false positives, students will figure out a way to exploit that, e.g. marked as present when absent via 'masks', Mission Impossible-style.
> If the system is subject to false positives, students will figure out a way to exploit that, e.g. marked as present when absent via 'masks', Mission Impossible-style.
I can assure you, the teams of PhDs from Stanford and MIT will address those cases. Just like how Google knows if you're clicking random ads.
I can assure you, the teams of PhDs from Stanford and MIT will address those cases. Just like how Google knows if you're clicking random ads.
I assure you that teams of PhDs have been working on it for years, same as with, e.g. cryptography. It's just a hard problem [0].
[0] https://cyber.harvard.edu/cybersecurity/Why_Information_Secu...
[0] https://cyber.harvard.edu/cybersecurity/Why_Information_Secu...
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They will, but the school will just make policies outlawing clothing that covers facial features (or may have some already).
I’m pretty sure a simple grape inside each cheek will mess up the facial keypoint lookup
If they outlaw burqas, they can face lawsuits over religious freedom.
So?
New York's MO is "screw over people now and settle out of court in 10yr if you think the precedent isn't gonna go your way."
A lawsuit or twenty won't stop them. It's not their money.
New York's MO is "screw over people now and settle out of court in 10yr if you think the precedent isn't gonna go your way."
A lawsuit or twenty won't stop them. It's not their money.
Perhaps so but there’s no legal protection when wearing such clothing for non-religious reasons, as would clearly be the case here.
What do you mean by non-religious reason? What about non-Christian holidays that are school days? Is that non-religious?
Has this been decided in jurisprudence?
Has this been decided in jurisprudence?
Not everyone uses burqas, and trying to argue for religious freedom when you're using headwear in bad faith is not a particularly good idea.
okusername(2)
Because children and adolescents aren't people, they often have surveillance and control technologies tested on them. And when the surveillance and control technologies significantly increase school violence (can you name a school shooting at a school that didn't have cameras?), they conclude that more technology is needed to surveil and control. I imagine it's a booming business.
I am reminded of the absurd threat in the film "Rock and Roll High School" that "This will go on your permanent record"
Nowadays it will.
Nowadays it will.
A bit incomplete title then. They are also testing legal boundaries, population reaction, and few other things that are morally objectionable.
We need to invent a category of property rights for the results of such testing against non-consenting populations. That would create an economic incentive for lawyers to do what they do best.
We already have legal precedent for paying reparations for undisclosed tests against civilians.
We already have legal precedent for paying reparations for undisclosed tests against civilians.
Lockport is an old factory town on the Erie Canal, not far from Buffalo and Niagara Falls. The population is about 20,000 people. North of the city is orchards and farmland, south are the outer suburbs of Buffalo. It's not a place known for high tech, nor is it known for high municipal spending.
The backstory of how this came about would surely be interesting.
The backstory of how this came about would surely be interesting.
A plausible story is that Lockport is the county seat of Niagara County, NY, which has three land (bridge) crossings with Canada, and therefore has significant USCIS presence throughout the county. I can imagine a joint task force involving county law enforcement and USCIS. Most schools in NY State have armed police (“school resource officer”) present. They probably all go to the same sporting events, drink at the same pubs.
Nothing like a refreshing beverage and discussing pervasive surveillance technology for the youth of America.
Nothing like a refreshing beverage and discussing pervasive surveillance technology for the youth of America.
Lockport is not the county seat of Niagara County. It's a dilapidated, failing school district that's experiencing a huge amount of wealth flight as it's situated ~10 mins from two quite prominent school districts.
I won’t argue the challenges of the school district, but Lockport, NY is most certainly the county seat of Niagara County, NY.
https://data.ny.gov/widgets/4xc7-bukh
https://data.ny.gov/widgets/4xc7-bukh
Parents.
The time has come to teach your chilluns the virtues of laser pointers, spray paint, and civil disobedience.
It won't take long, I guarantee you.
The time has come to teach your chilluns the virtues of laser pointers, spray paint, and civil disobedience.
It won't take long, I guarantee you.
Slightly confusing how although the article's opening paragraph currently says "...an explicit order" from the state education department, it goes on to quote it later where it can be seen to be just a recommendation.
Fun Fact: Chris Sacca is from Lockport and graduated from Lockport High School. Timothy McVeigh is also from there.
Did the parents approve the use of the photos by a 3rd party? Were the parents advised of the policies around data retention and data destruction? Will this data remain in the system after the children are adults?
No problems from me. NY schools already have a security guard on duty that watches everyone coming and going through the front door. Its not always easy job, anything that can help them would be great.
Why don't schools concentrate on education?
Good gravy. I'd go into hiding if there was anywhere left to go. Wish I was religious so I could try to join a monestary.
If you're under 25 you could join the Kaua'i Hindu Monastery. https://www.himalayanacademy.com/livespiritually/monastic-li...
Just become a pastafarian. You can make up your own creed as you go.
You can buy a plot of land in the middle of nowhere for $500. Have fun!
I can't imagine being a kid in this type of environment. Then again, many of the kids who will be unwillingly subjected to this probably aren't informed enough to understand the potential long-term consequences of pervasive surveillance, which makes it all the more evil.
It's appalling that they spent $1.4 million (so far) on this rather than putting the money towards more useful things like teacher salaries or after-school programs. Maybe if they improved the overall school experience they wouldn't need to monitor the kids like prisoners?