Remote working – Bringing sanity to mind and lessons worth learning(blog.quuu.co)
blog.quuu.co
Remote working – Bringing sanity to mind and lessons worth learning
https://blog.quuu.co/lessons-worth-learning-from-remote-workers/
200 comments
This times a hundred thousand percent. I’m battling this hard right now at my workplace, some of my developers live a good 45 min drive from work and that’s just insane to ask them to be in their car for 7.5 hours/week.
So what did I do? I went “against” the company policy and had each of my team members work at least 1 day a week from home, now they’re up to 2-3 days depending on the week (humorous part is during the summer they’re in the office more cause it’s more quiet than home cause their kids are out for the summer lol)
So we’re still a “work from office” company but I run our team how I want and surprise - zero attrition in 3 years on my team, we meet most of our commitments, developer happiness/engagement is up on my team, our time to first response for production issues is great and all because of a mutual understanding that regardless of the “rules” I’ll take care of my guys/gals.
So what did I do? I went “against” the company policy and had each of my team members work at least 1 day a week from home, now they’re up to 2-3 days depending on the week (humorous part is during the summer they’re in the office more cause it’s more quiet than home cause their kids are out for the summer lol)
So we’re still a “work from office” company but I run our team how I want and surprise - zero attrition in 3 years on my team, we meet most of our commitments, developer happiness/engagement is up on my team, our time to first response for production issues is great and all because of a mutual understanding that regardless of the “rules” I’ll take care of my guys/gals.
The down side is that this can have bad effects on company wide morale.
My wife's company has a strict no remote work policy. But one or two managers go against the company policy like you have, and let their dept. work remote from time to time.
It's great for them, but it kills morale in the rest of the company as people in my wife's department kill themselves to come in day after day (despite good/bad weather, missing personal commitments, etc), while they notice empty desks in the dept. down the hall. Makes for some miserable workers.
It's great for them, but it kills morale in the rest of the company as people in my wife's department kill themselves to come in day after day (despite good/bad weather, missing personal commitments, etc), while they notice empty desks in the dept. down the hall. Makes for some miserable workers.
Yes, this has been the hardest challenge of it all.
When I took the role (I’m on the product side, my counterpart is the Engineering lead but we run it together) I made it clear that I’m only taking this role if they let me run the teams the way I want to run them, within reason.
My view on what you’ve described is that my directives are to improve sales, stability and the trajectory of the company.
It is not my job to worry about what other teams or tracks or departments think of how I run my teams. For the first few months, it was very rough because I did get a lot of that passive aggressive bullshit from people.
I told them the exact conversations I had with the respective leadership individual and encouraged them to go have a conversation if they were willing to put themselves in the same situation as me.
None of them did and over time I grew thicker skin, plus stopped caring about what they thought as it was working fine.
There’s about five more teams in the product/analytics/engineering realm that operate the same way I do now and it has been a culture change.
I’d imagine in the next 9-12 months we’ll revisit the policy company wide.
But I’ll say this, I’m not sure it was the right call from the overall morale of the company but it turned our team from the butt of jokes into the leading example so it was the right call for our team.
When I took the role (I’m on the product side, my counterpart is the Engineering lead but we run it together) I made it clear that I’m only taking this role if they let me run the teams the way I want to run them, within reason.
My view on what you’ve described is that my directives are to improve sales, stability and the trajectory of the company.
It is not my job to worry about what other teams or tracks or departments think of how I run my teams. For the first few months, it was very rough because I did get a lot of that passive aggressive bullshit from people.
I told them the exact conversations I had with the respective leadership individual and encouraged them to go have a conversation if they were willing to put themselves in the same situation as me.
None of them did and over time I grew thicker skin, plus stopped caring about what they thought as it was working fine.
There’s about five more teams in the product/analytics/engineering realm that operate the same way I do now and it has been a culture change.
I’d imagine in the next 9-12 months we’ll revisit the policy company wide.
But I’ll say this, I’m not sure it was the right call from the overall morale of the company but it turned our team from the butt of jokes into the leading example so it was the right call for our team.
IMO that’s a solvable problem by just having sane remote policies.
The last company I worked for was basically “remote only if there was no other way” but the office policy was “if you need to be out for family events, doctors appointments, kids things at school, etc it’s totally fine”
And it was great.
The last company I worked for was basically “remote only if there was no other way” but the office policy was “if you need to be out for family events, doctors appointments, kids things at school, etc it’s totally fine”
And it was great.
Yes, I have seen that in one of my past job. Most of the political attrition came from managers of other divisions that required face time and perception of dedication.
OTOH, I also worked for an investment bank and there it was made clear, in my first day, that different people work different schedules so don’t assume productivity is sitting in your chair 9-5. I think it all comes from communication and clear expectations.
OTOH, I also worked for an investment bank and there it was made clear, in my first day, that different people work different schedules so don’t assume productivity is sitting in your chair 9-5. I think it all comes from communication and clear expectations.
Has the company looked at which departments need to be on-premise and then let the other ones have flexibility? If the departments who work remotely now and then are meeting the company's goals, it seems like a model to follow.
No they have not. And yes, it would seem to be a good model to follow. But they are not interested in looking into it. I guess eventually they will be forced to look into a remote policy due to attrition, but sadly, they will probably be able to hold out for a few years more before doing so.
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Interested to hear how HR and OH&S are able to reconcile the situation so that everything is legal.
We had a tough situation my workplace to get this going. Once a framework is available and all the legals are checked, it went smoothly.
We had a tough situation my workplace to get this going. Once a framework is available and all the legals are checked, it went smoothly.
I'm curious what the legal issues would be; could you expand on your concerns?
The legal issues are obviously regional based, but most of them would be universal.
Off the top of my head.
* Ensure that your workplace is a physically safe place. ie enough lighting, correct furnishing etc.
* The data you are working with is protected adequately. ie A separate room with lockable door and window.
* The infrastructure is adequate. ie internet, electricity, water and toileting.
* Insurable if something goes wrong.
* How your work time is measured. This is particular important if your industry is covered by union rules.
Off the top of my head.
* Ensure that your workplace is a physically safe place. ie enough lighting, correct furnishing etc.
* The data you are working with is protected adequately. ie A separate room with lockable door and window.
* The infrastructure is adequate. ie internet, electricity, water and toileting.
* Insurable if something goes wrong.
* How your work time is measured. This is particular important if your industry is covered by union rules.
In the USA the Department of OHSA specifically says that it (and the employer) don't bear responsibility for a home based work site. They won't do site inspections and the best they can do is give tips to the worker and have the worker complete a self-assessment. Overseas this is viewed very differently. e.g. in Australia and UK the employer is responsible for worker safety even if they are working from home.
https://www.osha.gov/enforcement/directives/cpl-02-00-125
"OSHA will not conduct inspections of employees' home offices.
OSHA will not hold employers liable for employees' home offices, and does not expect employers to inspect the home offices of their employees.
If OSHA receives a complaint about a home office, the complainant will be advised of OSHA's policy. If an employee makes a specific request, OSHA may informally let employers know of complaints about home office conditions, but will not follow-up with the employer or employee."
https://www.osha.gov/enforcement/directives/cpl-02-00-125
"OSHA will not conduct inspections of employees' home offices.
OSHA will not hold employers liable for employees' home offices, and does not expect employers to inspect the home offices of their employees.
If OSHA receives a complaint about a home office, the complainant will be advised of OSHA's policy. If an employee makes a specific request, OSHA may informally let employers know of complaints about home office conditions, but will not follow-up with the employer or employee."
I assume one potential issue is the question of where people are actually working from. Although in my experience, most people have an official location even if they’re rarely there. It may differ with consultants etc. who may be working from a customer site for months.
We were told that for tax purposes, employees are only allowed to work in states/countries that already have an established office. My company has offices all over the place so it's not particularly restrictive but still a strict limit from working _anywhere_.
I've definitely encountered cases where a company didn't have an office in states where employees were located. In some of these cases, employees may have been de facto remote but still technically had an office at the company's location. Others though an employee was clearly remote in a different state.
What I can't speak to is what sort of legal presence the company set up in the remote employee state of residence. (An office may not be needed but some sort of legal paperwork may be.)
What I can't speak to is what sort of legal presence the company set up in the remote employee state of residence. (An office may not be needed but some sort of legal paperwork may be.)
Data protection and worker's comp in my experience.
Insurance when the employee is not here I guess
First off, holy shit. I come back from travel and arguably the least interesting comment I’ve made on a thread in years is the highest upvote one I’ve had lol
Now on to your question - We haven’t had any issues here with the HR policies and OH&S so far.
Each of the team members is in the same state as the office so no additional burden there for taxes.
Now on to your question - We haven’t had any issues here with the HR policies and OH&S so far.
Each of the team members is in the same state as the office so no additional burden there for taxes.
You sound just like my new employer, great job on managing the low attrition rates and keeping the workplace a comfortable environment for everyone!
I'm in my first remote position now, and my current opinion is that it would be extremely difficult to be remote unless it was actively baked into the company culture.
Has that been your experience? I love working remote but even at a remote-focused company, I feel there are things I miss out on since I'm not onsite in one of the offices.
Has that been your experience? I love working remote but even at a remote-focused company, I feel there are things I miss out on since I'm not onsite in one of the offices.
Totally. It's not easy to mix on-site and remote, and most places that do mix have some pain points like you describe.
When I worked remote it was at all-remote jobs. My office jobs have typically had a pretty "standard" policy around how much remote / work from home people can do, and that makes it viable. You definitely do miss out on some things on the days you work from home, though, so it's one of those things you kind of have to decide how much you can afford to take.
When I worked remote it was at all-remote jobs. My office jobs have typically had a pretty "standard" policy around how much remote / work from home people can do, and that makes it viable. You definitely do miss out on some things on the days you work from home, though, so it's one of those things you kind of have to decide how much you can afford to take.
Do you have employees that live in SF by any chance? We're big proponents of location flexibility at Out Of Office and we want to encourage more companies to give their employees greater control over their schedules, even if it's just one day a week.
Shoot me an email (address is in my profile) if you'd like to chat more.
Shoot me an email (address is in my profile) if you'd like to chat more.
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lol@45 min commute being excessively long
In the Bay Area many people have 1+ hour commutes. Even 2 hours is not uncommon.
Not to be flippant but the larger suffering of others does not negate or even justify suffering.
That sounds like a choice. 25 minutes is the national average.
Well, the choice is living in the Bay Area. I don't think many would find it surprising that an area with among the worst traffic and highest housing prices might have longer commutes than the national average.
25 minutes is achievable in the Bay Area within SF (transit/biking), or within the suburb where you work (driving), it is just not feasible when living in the suburbs and working in the city, or vice versa.
The East Bay commuters in my office make as much as I do and could live in SF if they wanted. They made a choice to be homeowners, have more space, get access to better schools, etc. but it is still a choice.
The East Bay commuters in my office make as much as I do and could live in SF if they wanted. They made a choice to be homeowners, have more space, get access to better schools, etc. but it is still a choice.
I've been working remotely for most of my children's lives. Kids learn. Yes, there are some days where they don't understand, but you teach them and everything works out fine. That is no more of a learning curve than all people go through when learning to work remotely. Communication is different, work schedules differ... kids just part of the process of learning to work well in a remote environment.
As far as flexibility goes, I prefer remote work. I'm OK with office work is the commute is short. But I hate 100% flexibility. I do appreciate the ability to make exceptions to the norm as needed, but if everyone is 100% flexible, I find that is just makes you unsure where people are going to be each day, and doesn't really focus the working habits into one mold or the other. Either way can work, but the least productive teams I've ever been on have been mixed between remote and office.
As far as flexibility goes, I prefer remote work. I'm OK with office work is the commute is short. But I hate 100% flexibility. I do appreciate the ability to make exceptions to the norm as needed, but if everyone is 100% flexible, I find that is just makes you unsure where people are going to be each day, and doesn't really focus the working habits into one mold or the other. Either way can work, but the least productive teams I've ever been on have been mixed between remote and office.
> As a hiring manager, what I’ve found is that there aren’t so many people who truly want to work from home all the time.
I think you might be surprised how many people truly want to give up 40 of their best hours a week at all. Reality is that most people need to work for an income, which, as you’ve laid out for remote work, allows them to do things that they want to do with their lives. I know many people who would quit working today if their rent was paid, food guaranteed to be on the table, and they could travel a little or pursue some other hobbies.
I think you might be surprised how many people truly want to give up 40 of their best hours a week at all. Reality is that most people need to work for an income, which, as you’ve laid out for remote work, allows them to do things that they want to do with their lives. I know many people who would quit working today if their rent was paid, food guaranteed to be on the table, and they could travel a little or pursue some other hobbies.
My employer let me drop to 25 hours/week when I went to grad school. Twenty-five turned out to be a sweet spot. I enjoyed accomplishing goals for my employer each day and had an extra 3 hours daily for family and personal goals. It was the happiest I've ever been in my career.
My manager let me work from home as needed during that time. Just having the power to make the decision gave me satisfaction. I used it when I needed it but went in otherwise.
My manager let me work from home as needed during that time. Just having the power to make the decision gave me satisfaction. I used it when I needed it but went in otherwise.
Sure, I agree there are probably a large percentage of people who would opt not to work at all if they had the choice.
But I know there are also a lot of people who love their work and would want “work to do” whether they needed money or not.
Probably the biggest gap is that most people (have to) choose work based on pay, rather than choosing based on what they enjoy spending their time on.
But I know there are also a lot of people who love their work and would want “work to do” whether they needed money or not.
Probably the biggest gap is that most people (have to) choose work based on pay, rather than choosing based on what they enjoy spending their time on.
> Rather, what most people want is flexibility and compromise.
Yup that's all I want.
I want to be in the office for many things, and I wouldn't want to do them remotely. Important meetings, and discussions, just getting to know people, I want to be there.
et other times home to get some life tasks done easier (kids), or just hunker down and pound out some work for a while.
My love for remote work isn't "remote only" but a lot of news stories about "remote" really mix the ideas and "remote often" and "remote only" are very very different ideas for me.
Yup that's all I want.
I want to be in the office for many things, and I wouldn't want to do them remotely. Important meetings, and discussions, just getting to know people, I want to be there.
et other times home to get some life tasks done easier (kids), or just hunker down and pound out some work for a while.
My love for remote work isn't "remote only" but a lot of news stories about "remote" really mix the ideas and "remote often" and "remote only" are very very different ideas for me.
I've been working remotely for over a decade. I love it because I get to spend more time with my family and have more time to work on my side business. This is mostly because there is no commute. I also have an office (I rent it myself) that I can go to if I want to get away from my house.
I really don't want a job that's partially remote. I enjoy working 100% remote. Work/life balance really depends on discipline. I turn everything off at around 5pm, unless there is an emergency.
Managers also need to know how to manage remote employees. I've run into issues where a manager doesn't know how to effectively communicate over email/skype, etc, and it results in miscommunications.
I really don't want a job that's partially remote. I enjoy working 100% remote. Work/life balance really depends on discipline. I turn everything off at around 5pm, unless there is an emergency.
Managers also need to know how to manage remote employees. I've run into issues where a manager doesn't know how to effectively communicate over email/skype, etc, and it results in miscommunications.
How long were you remote before you got the office? In my last year or so of remote I finally went for a cowork space, which was helpful.
In the end, an office worked better for me, but I agree the commute sucks. Since I didn’t have one at all for years, I’m very conscious of all the lost time in transit each week, even though my commute is pretty short by local standards (~25’).
In the end, an office worked better for me, but I agree the commute sucks. Since I didn’t have one at all for years, I’m very conscious of all the lost time in transit each week, even though my commute is pretty short by local standards (~25’).
"How long were you remote before you got the office?"
I was remote for a couple of years from home, traveled around Asia for a year (while still remote), and got an office when I got back (7 years ago).
"Since I didn’t have one at all for years, I’m very conscious of all the lost time in transit each week, even though my commute is pretty short by local standards (~25’)."
It's more than just that. While I did enjoy having coworkers to socialize with, I realized it wasted lots of time during the day. I can get things done with virtually no interruptions and it's great. I regularly meet people through meetup groups in my area, so I still get to socialize. Just not at work (aside from Webex meetings/phone calls).
I was remote for a couple of years from home, traveled around Asia for a year (while still remote), and got an office when I got back (7 years ago).
"Since I didn’t have one at all for years, I’m very conscious of all the lost time in transit each week, even though my commute is pretty short by local standards (~25’)."
It's more than just that. While I did enjoy having coworkers to socialize with, I realized it wasted lots of time during the day. I can get things done with virtually no interruptions and it's great. I regularly meet people through meetup groups in my area, so I still get to socialize. Just not at work (aside from Webex meetings/phone calls).
I've been working remotely for years, since before I had kids and now when I do, and it works great for me.
I get to have breakfast and lunch with my family every day, which also means I can help out with the kids.
I get more sleep, since I don't need to spend half an hour in the car (and when I do go into the office, I have to get up earlier, because traffic).
I think the key to having this work well, especially when you have kids, is to have a separate room setup as a home office, so you can close the door and be in work mode. I know it might be a luxury that not everyone can afford, but personally I wouldn't work remotely without it.
I get to have breakfast and lunch with my family every day, which also means I can help out with the kids.
I get more sleep, since I don't need to spend half an hour in the car (and when I do go into the office, I have to get up earlier, because traffic).
I think the key to having this work well, especially when you have kids, is to have a separate room setup as a home office, so you can close the door and be in work mode. I know it might be a luxury that not everyone can afford, but personally I wouldn't work remotely without it.
Your points are balanced and reflects quite well what I look for.
I usually have the mindset to be in everyday of the week 9-5 and that’s how I start my week.
But realistically, as the week progress, life gets in the way, I stay late one day in the office, wake up a bit late, etc. So by end of week I am always getting in around 10:30 or just working from home. Also, as honest as I can be, I deliver much more and don’t see my job as a burden/stressor if they grant me this autonomy. It is funny but my wife much rather have me 9-5 because I work less hours this way.
I usually have the mindset to be in everyday of the week 9-5 and that’s how I start my week.
But realistically, as the week progress, life gets in the way, I stay late one day in the office, wake up a bit late, etc. So by end of week I am always getting in around 10:30 or just working from home. Also, as honest as I can be, I deliver much more and don’t see my job as a burden/stressor if they grant me this autonomy. It is funny but my wife much rather have me 9-5 because I work less hours this way.
You nailed it.
Our HQ is outside DC and most new hires (at least one my product) are local. But, we have great flexibility - we can work from home on demand from day 1. And we regularly let employees go permanently remote when their personal situations change.
Prospective employees are always glad to hear that's one of the perks working here. Especially those that come from government contracts, where being on-site with a client is generally preferred, if not required.
Our HQ is outside DC and most new hires (at least one my product) are local. But, we have great flexibility - we can work from home on demand from day 1. And we regularly let employees go permanently remote when their personal situations change.
Prospective employees are always glad to hear that's one of the perks working here. Especially those that come from government contracts, where being on-site with a client is generally preferred, if not required.
> But, we have great flexibility - we can work from home on demand from day 1
Is there a policy that defines it? Is there a limit?
Would love to hear your experience as I'm doing some research into this right now.
Is there a policy that defines it? Is there a limit?
Would love to hear your experience as I'm doing some research into this right now.
We don't have a policy beyond "be flexible". Some teams/managers are more open to full-time remote, but everybody within my product line (12 teams spread across US and Bangalore) are ok with part-time and full-time remote. I doubt we'd hire a manager that didn't agree.
Younger employees (college hire to 3 years or so) tend to be hired locally, with increasing levels of work-from-home allowed as time goes on, but we're flexible from day 1 in terms of "work from home to let in the plumber" type stuff. Generally, after a few months, we'll allow regularly scheduled work-from-home for "I need T/Th to do day care runs" stuff. And several a year go full-time remote, usually to flee DC real estate prices and traffic.
Mid-career employees, we'll hire remote from day 1.
With 1/3 of my product's staff in Bangalore, we have to be good at remote work anyway, so there's little, if any, cost to allowing US-based employees to work wherever they want.
Younger employees (college hire to 3 years or so) tend to be hired locally, with increasing levels of work-from-home allowed as time goes on, but we're flexible from day 1 in terms of "work from home to let in the plumber" type stuff. Generally, after a few months, we'll allow regularly scheduled work-from-home for "I need T/Th to do day care runs" stuff. And several a year go full-time remote, usually to flee DC real estate prices and traffic.
Mid-career employees, we'll hire remote from day 1.
With 1/3 of my product's staff in Bangalore, we have to be good at remote work anyway, so there's little, if any, cost to allowing US-based employees to work wherever they want.
> Then I had kids, and that distinction became much harder.
The solution is to rent an office for yourself, or you can work from co-working hubs if you're more on the extrovert side. Even without kids having a separate work space helps a lot in keeping the work/life balance in check.
The solution is to rent an office for yourself, or you can work from co-working hubs if you're more on the extrovert side. Even without kids having a separate work space helps a lot in keeping the work/life balance in check.
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I just started a new remote position. I worked remotely in previous job as well and discovered then that working from home is not actually a good thing for me. I eventually worked exclusively from coffee shops but this isn’t exactly the best way to work everyday — expensive, drink LOTS of coffee, and coffee shops generally make it harder to find flow state, not impossible but just harder.
That previous job was contract work for an enterprise — not super inspiring, lots of structural annoyances in the team that created barriers to getting things done, and team a setup that didn’t quite put remote workers on the same level as the inhouse team members. Even with all the annoyances I found when working from home I had a lot of trouble “stopping” — it felt like I was always at work.
Switching to the coffee shops was definitely better, but with my role on new team (startup and fully remote team — it’s aweskme!) I decided to try out a coworking space. Got a reserved desk at a WeWork walking distance from home and really like the experience so far! Short walk to work, sort of a community feeling at the office (well haven’t made any friends Yet but it at least seems possible to), master of my own space, and whenever I want I can choose to work from a coffee shop or wherever seems convenient ...
Best of all worlds so far!
That previous job was contract work for an enterprise — not super inspiring, lots of structural annoyances in the team that created barriers to getting things done, and team a setup that didn’t quite put remote workers on the same level as the inhouse team members. Even with all the annoyances I found when working from home I had a lot of trouble “stopping” — it felt like I was always at work.
Switching to the coffee shops was definitely better, but with my role on new team (startup and fully remote team — it’s aweskme!) I decided to try out a coworking space. Got a reserved desk at a WeWork walking distance from home and really like the experience so far! Short walk to work, sort of a community feeling at the office (well haven’t made any friends Yet but it at least seems possible to), master of my own space, and whenever I want I can choose to work from a coffee shop or wherever seems convenient ...
Best of all worlds so far!
I want to be at a coworking space, but WeWork is pricey for my situation. A hot desk (not reserved) at my local WeWork is over $4k a year. If that cost were subsidized by my company I might use it, but it's a significant salary hit otherwise. Additionally, it's still a very loud workspace to work in. Even with daily food/drink costs, I spend well under that at the coffee shop.
Libraries are pretty underrated working environments. Generally quiet, and many have conferencing or study rooms for reservations
I work from libraries a lot, when I'm at home and when I'm on the road. My biggest disappointment is usually in university libraries because their internet tends to be more locked down then a community library, but hey it's their network.
I can work fine in a coffee shop but for some reason I’ve never been able to work in a library. Or maybe it’s just the ones I’ve been to; they all had dim fluorescent lighting, a musty smell, and lack of decorating/design.
Try Regus. A businessworld membership is $70/month and let’s you use business lounges everywhere in the world, and gets you WiFi in a lot of places, too.
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what city/metro are you in? WeWork seems pricey but there are usually many other spaces available.
I used to have a “hot desk” at The Port Workspaces in Oakland for $125/mo. It’s right near the 19th St BART stop, we had folks commuting from SF with no complaints. I know their rates have gone up but are still probably much cheaper than WeWork.
Now I’m in Charlotte NC and WeWork is expensive here too! I’m about to start a membership at Hygge Coworking for $125/mo; quiet space, great people.
I used to have a “hot desk” at The Port Workspaces in Oakland for $125/mo. It’s right near the 19th St BART stop, we had folks commuting from SF with no complaints. I know their rates have gone up but are still probably much cheaper than WeWork.
Now I’m in Charlotte NC and WeWork is expensive here too! I’m about to start a membership at Hygge Coworking for $125/mo; quiet space, great people.
I'm pretty centrally located in Denver.
There are lots of cheaper options than WeWork in Denver: Serendipity Labs, Thrive, Modworks, Shift... just to name a few. They generally average about 200/mo for co-working spaces, which is about half of what WeWork is currently charging.
Different things work for different people, but I'm also a fan of coworking spaces. I like having the social interaction, but also the knowledge that I have a guaranteed workspace, fast WiFi, power points, etc. However, I do think a lot of big coworking chains like WeWork are in danger of morphing into the corporate offices remote working is supposed to offer an alternative to. In London, I'm seeing a lot of places spring up that are more of a hybrid between a coworking space and social space e.g. private members clubs or some restaurants and bars offering a hotdesking membership. There are also a lot of new apps where you can book a space at venues with low footfall in the day. I think it's a really exciting movement to be part of!
> Even with all the annoyances I found when working from home I had a lot of trouble “stopping” — it felt like I was always at work.
I'm curious because I never had this problem...
Did you have a dedicated computer & desk for work? Did you have a work room?
I started without a work room, but I got a work laptop & desk with none of my personal stuff on it; and none of my work stuff was on my personal devices. I put these in the kitchen where I don't normally hang out much. Once I'm done working, I go to another room where most of my personal life is. I never had this feeling that I'm "always at work", and work/life balance got strictly better than it ever was with any commute.
I'm curious because I never had this problem...
Did you have a dedicated computer & desk for work? Did you have a work room?
I started without a work room, but I got a work laptop & desk with none of my personal stuff on it; and none of my work stuff was on my personal devices. I put these in the kitchen where I don't normally hang out much. Once I'm done working, I go to another room where most of my personal life is. I never had this feeling that I'm "always at work", and work/life balance got strictly better than it ever was with any commute.
I didn’t have a dedicated room for work — I had a standing desk setup in my bedroom ... a private office would’ve been nice and probably works a lot better but housing in Denver area makes having an own home office not that much cheaper cost wise than just getting a reserved desk at a coworking space ... I also think I might still struggle with “stopping work” if my compute is all right there a room or two away ... it’s the difference between “oh, some email i can take care of this right now” and “oh an email, this can wait until tomorrow” — if I bias myself toward the first I will probably end up expecting that to be the way I behave and eventually punishing myself with internal guilt when I chose the other ...
Libraries are also great options. Downtown branches are usually sprawling and not so busy during the week.
It is great to work where you live, what is terrible is to live where you work! :-)
The problem with remote work is working for a team that hasn't committed to making remote work tenable. It's too easy to miss out on whiteboard sessions & hallway conversations, and resentment by people who don't like making special accommodations for remote workers definitely happens.
In general the recommendation is that it’s best to have everyone remote. Mixed teams usually don’t work well.
I work in a company where there is a mix between people who are always in the office, some who work 2 or 3 days at home (like me) and others who are mostly remote.
Seems to work pretty well - so it's certainly possible.
Seems to work pretty well - so it's certainly possible.
Personally, while I wouldn't say that mixed teams "don't work", they are much harder. Specifically for management.
The managers need to enforce that all meetings have to include remote workers. And I mean ALL meetings should include them, or at least give them the option of joining in. Managers need to avoid falling in the trap of "I didn't talk to them today so they didn't do anything", even subconsciously. Managers need to make sure that no decisions are made informally in an office without giving a chance to remote workers on the teams from having input or knowing they happened. Managers need to make sure that in-office people know how to use and work with the remote work tools, and remote workers need to be held to the same standards (no one-on-one calls and decisions without including all the in-office people, not just the one they are talking to at the moment).
It's not impossible by any means, I even work in a situation like that myself right now where about half the team is remote, and half is in the office. But having worked in fully remote teams and fully in-office teams before, I will say that it's much easier when it's not mixed.
One really kind of "unique" setup I have at a current job is an always-on zoom "meeting room" where team members will stay in all day sometimes (often any time we aren't working on something individually or deep in a problem). It really bridges the remote/office gap really well, because just like in an office any of us can just unmute and ask a quick question about something, kind of like leaning back to ask someone a question at another desk in an office.
The managers need to enforce that all meetings have to include remote workers. And I mean ALL meetings should include them, or at least give them the option of joining in. Managers need to avoid falling in the trap of "I didn't talk to them today so they didn't do anything", even subconsciously. Managers need to make sure that no decisions are made informally in an office without giving a chance to remote workers on the teams from having input or knowing they happened. Managers need to make sure that in-office people know how to use and work with the remote work tools, and remote workers need to be held to the same standards (no one-on-one calls and decisions without including all the in-office people, not just the one they are talking to at the moment).
It's not impossible by any means, I even work in a situation like that myself right now where about half the team is remote, and half is in the office. But having worked in fully remote teams and fully in-office teams before, I will say that it's much easier when it's not mixed.
One really kind of "unique" setup I have at a current job is an always-on zoom "meeting room" where team members will stay in all day sometimes (often any time we aren't working on something individually or deep in a problem). It really bridges the remote/office gap really well, because just like in an office any of us can just unmute and ask a quick question about something, kind of like leaning back to ask someone a question at another desk in an office.
Yeah - we have all the gear for making sure remote access to meetings works really well (cameras, screens, hand held wireless microphones etc).
It's definitely possible - I would say that to be most successful you want to behave like everyone is remote all the time, which means remote access to meetings, not whiteboarding and leaving somebody out because they're remote, etc, and bringing in remote folks when in-person really matters.
Otherwise you'll eventually get silos depending on people's locations. That can work too if they're all kinda grouped in terms of work function but it's not as ideal as "treat everyone remote" for sharing information and productivity.
Otherwise you'll eventually get silos depending on people's locations. That can work too if they're all kinda grouped in terms of work function but it's not as ideal as "treat everyone remote" for sharing information and productivity.
The key for my team was a "remote-first" mindset. First, check on chat or e-mail. Then, if that doesn't work, head over to their desk to see if they're there.
(+1 to me for getting "their", "they're", "there" right on the first try!)
(+1 to me for getting "their", "they're", "there" right on the first try!)
That is very much the case here - I often have no idea whether someone I am communicating with is in the office or somewhere else - although always amusing to realise that an online meeting actually has all the attendees sitting a few metres apart....
Yup, and I can confirm with another data point.
When the whole organization buys in to the remoting experience, it can work. Where I'm at, the default assumption is remote; be it home or another office since we're so distributed. So our way of working takes that into consideration.
When the whole organization buys in to the remoting experience, it can work. Where I'm at, the default assumption is remote; be it home or another office since we're so distributed. So our way of working takes that into consideration.
I work remote for a company and about 50% of the workforce is remote. It works fine as there are enough remote workers that everyone is used to accommodating. If you're a one off remote worker, and most folks are used to accommodating, it definitely can be tough.
> and most folks are not used to accommodating
I experienced the same issues at a previous company, and wrote about the (somewhat unusual) experience at https://medium.com/@RayNicholus/a-farang-geek-in-thailand-th.... After I moved to a 100% remote company, I did find that most of these issues disappeared, but I think it is still possible for remote culture to thrive at a company that isn't 100% remote, as long as the culture is remote-first.
>resentment by people who don't like making special accommodations for remote workers definitely happens.
Resentment can go both ways
Resentment can go both ways
The number one request by a huge margin was put forward. Then the first thing mentioned is the dangers of remote work. Seems an odd tack to take.
That being said I really like remote work. But you have to be proactive in your role to be successful. I've found the main danger to be manager changes.
The previous manager accepted and worked with remote personnel. The new one does not like it so they create a situation. Then solve it by canceling the remote program. I'm pretty sure this is where most of the negativity comes from.
That being said I really like remote work. But you have to be proactive in your role to be successful. I've found the main danger to be manager changes.
The previous manager accepted and worked with remote personnel. The new one does not like it so they create a situation. Then solve it by canceling the remote program. I'm pretty sure this is where most of the negativity comes from.
Manager changes are often indicative of what I perceive to be the biggest issue: cultural attitudes towards people that are not in the office.
If the organization understands that you're a full participant and they don't blink when you say you're remote, that's great and will lead to success.
If, however, you're perceived to be tele-shirking or "wink wink remote working" because of the company culture it will be a big issue. I would say this could be resolved by some focused in-person time to talk about norms and how to collaborate and share success, but it takes a good manager to do this. If the manager wants butts in seats and remote is not a company-wide norm, then that may be what you're left with, unfortunately.
If the organization understands that you're a full participant and they don't blink when you say you're remote, that's great and will lead to success.
If, however, you're perceived to be tele-shirking or "wink wink remote working" because of the company culture it will be a big issue. I would say this could be resolved by some focused in-person time to talk about norms and how to collaborate and share success, but it takes a good manager to do this. If the manager wants butts in seats and remote is not a company-wide norm, then that may be what you're left with, unfortunately.
Going through this myself right now. I joined my company as just the third developer on the team almost a decade ago, working directly under the owner. A year ago when we were up to ~15 developers I decided to move to a different state and go full remote, with the owner's blessing. Since then two more layers of management were inserted between me and the owner and communication has all but broken down.
I like the company and I like working remotely, but it may be time for a change soon because of this.
I like the company and I like working remotely, but it may be time for a change soon because of this.
I actually think it may be a tactic for getting more votes. You get the casual upvoters who like remote and only read the headline before they clicked it. But then you can also pick up people who don't like it if they read that far in. But then you can also get some more of the pro-remotes who read all the way to the end.
I agree as I've seen this happen too many times. In future I plan to apply only for positions in companies where remote work is not optional (no offices).
It could be something like "Most people want to work remotely but cannot, and once some do, they find out about the downsides first-hand."
Please tell that to the European employers.
Most, especially in the German speaking part of Europe, are still run like factories, barely have flexible working hours and don't even want to hear about remote work as managers prefer having a close eye on employees at all time.
Most, especially in the German speaking part of Europe, are still run like factories, barely have flexible working hours and don't even want to hear about remote work as managers prefer having a close eye on employees at all time.
Same feeling here in France.
I get 3-4 opportunities for freelance work per week in the Paris region. I couldn't find any proposing full remote work (not just one day per week) after searching for 2 months
The funny thing is that now I work remotely for a German company from France
I get 3-4 opportunities for freelance work per week in the Paris region. I couldn't find any proposing full remote work (not just one day per week) after searching for 2 months
The funny thing is that now I work remotely for a German company from France
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Slightly at a tangent, and I hope you don't mind me asking: I moved to Paris last month and the freelancing opportunities seem to be a lot less plentiful than in London (android developer), do you look anywhere specific? I'm on freelance-info.fr and linkedin only
I started on Malt. I get most offers through Linkedin now. I also worked with intermediaries (consultime, digital & you). They can be old-fashioned and you have to negotiate well with them but they're almost necessary if you want to work for big corps. Send them your resume or try to find a recruiter through LinkedIn. There are other platforms like Malt: Comet (I haven't worked there though) and others that I can't remember right now..
Nice one! Thanks for the tips. I've got the furthest with a company called iD.Apps who seem pretty solid (and obviously focussed on mobile apps). But I hadn't heard of Malt, I'll register tonight and send my CV to the others too, cheers.
For mobile have a look at https://www.bam.tech/
I've worked for their sister company (Theodo) which makes web apps. They work with employees but sometimes when they get too much demand they can bring freelance on board
Really good working environment there
I've worked for their sister company (Theodo) which makes web apps. They work with employees but sometimes when they get too much demand they can bring freelance on board
Really good working environment there
Yeah well I didn't see anyone in my country advertise full time remote positions but I got one by offering to take a job and do it remotely.
This was ages ago, but during on-boarding for my internship for Daimler-Benz, my boss was keen to tout the flexible work schedule. IIRC, it was "you are expected to work 37.5 hours per week; you have flexibility on exactly when; we have core hours where everyone is expected to be in; those are 9:30 AM to 4:30 PM."
IOW, "we're totally flexible on when you work that other 30 minutes per day..."
IOW, "we're totally flexible on when you work that other 30 minutes per day..."
Lol, that is pretty much one of my past employers. They set a daily stand up everyday at 9:30am, so flexible time means I can arrive anytime before that..
One day I missed a stand-up because my wife was pregnant at the time and I wanted see our first baby MRI. The CTO sent me a nasty slack message in the company phone (which they claimed as a benefit “we give you state of art iphones!!”)
Also, there was catered lunch, which I sort of dislike and went out for lunch by myself sometimes. It was also frown upon, they want me to be in the office for the working hours.
I didn’t last long. In my subsequent job I made sure to pick just for the flexible hours since compensation in Europe, well st least where I am, doesn’t vary enourmously across companies.
One day I missed a stand-up because my wife was pregnant at the time and I wanted see our first baby MRI. The CTO sent me a nasty slack message in the company phone (which they claimed as a benefit “we give you state of art iphones!!”)
Also, there was catered lunch, which I sort of dislike and went out for lunch by myself sometimes. It was also frown upon, they want me to be in the office for the working hours.
I didn’t last long. In my subsequent job I made sure to pick just for the flexible hours since compensation in Europe, well st least where I am, doesn’t vary enourmously across companies.
Where exactly in Europe do you live that catered lunches are a thing yes bosses are so horrible, if you don't mind me asking?
Denmark, but that’s another discussion around lunch in the office. I personally don’t take it as a benefit.
I've heard that Germany has laws that limit employers' ability to monitor worker productivity. Something like, they can only monitor groups of three or more members?
I wonder if that's a reason German employers hesitate to allow workers the freedom to work unsupervised. As a remote worker myself, I know there's a greater temptation to slack off at times; knowing that I'm accountable for remaining productive is an important motivator for me.
I wonder if that's a reason German employers hesitate to allow workers the freedom to work unsupervised. As a remote worker myself, I know there's a greater temptation to slack off at times; knowing that I'm accountable for remaining productive is an important motivator for me.
IANL, but what you heard about German monitoring probably only applies to large companies that have a unionized workforce like Daimler,VW, etc.
In most software shops there are no unions and your performance is easily monitored (Scrum anyone?) and, contrary to popular belief around here, you can easily be fired without a problem should you or your performance, objectively or subjectively not meet the management's expectation anymore.
In most software shops there are no unions and your performance is easily monitored (Scrum anyone?) and, contrary to popular belief around here, you can easily be fired without a problem should you or your performance, objectively or subjectively not meet the management's expectation anymore.
Nordics are the same. I might be wrong, and hope to be, but most of IT is still running few generations behind.
Lol no need to look all the way at Europe even. In the US not a single one of the big techs hires remotely still, and this I believe is a big barrier to the spread of remote hiring (“if google doesn’t hire remote, there must be some good reason - so we’re not gonna do it either!”)
Stripe has a remote engineering hub: https://stripe.com/blog/remote-hub
There is a small company named 'Elasticsearch' were most of the workers are remote workers since I don't think they even have offices.
GitLab is also known for being all-remote.
That's true! Here's some more info about it https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/
I work for a major cloud provider and I'm remote as is the majority of my team nationally. Teams are often distributed and even if I went to the local office there is nobody from related business units to talk to.
Some parts of Microsoft are remote-friendly, though indeed not most.
Microsoft hires remote. GitHub is mostly remote. I’ve seen remote Apple employees as well. FB and Google don’t do it though, they want you in their hyper infantilized offices (unlimited free ice cream?).
Not entirely accurate. You just have to be an exception to the rule. I'm aware of remote FB employees. They aren't posting remote jobs for sure though.
Having worked most of my career remote and now working in Menlo Park... I prefer working in an office by default but with no rule about it... which is my current work situation. I have a desk, and co-workers, but sometimes work remotely, in other offices, weird hours, etc.
Ymmv, but I think if you're in the right role, big company employers can make exceptions.
Having worked most of my career remote and now working in Menlo Park... I prefer working in an office by default but with no rule about it... which is my current work situation. I have a desk, and co-workers, but sometimes work remotely, in other offices, weird hours, etc.
Ymmv, but I think if you're in the right role, big company employers can make exceptions.
Working remote is great but still requires a quality company for it to be enjoyable.
Meetings should be treated like everyone is remote. If people attend from their desk, these tend to work out better & you avoid unintentional things that make it difficult for remote employees to attend.
Having the majority of conversations done via e-mail or a chat tool & properly documented in something like OneNote or Evernote or a project management tool goes a long way in keeping everyone on the same page as well. This is good for non-remote teams as well.
Allowing flexibility in time & location goes a long way in making happy employees in my experience. It shows you trust them to get the work done. Sure, some people will abuse it but those aren't people you want on your team anyways.
As stated by others, being a remote worker doesn't mean you need to be a hermit either. There are tons of ways to still go out & socialize with people. Even on remote teams, I still find a good chunk of my day is socializing via video chat meetings where someone is bound to go off topic. People also login early & chat about life.
Meetings should be treated like everyone is remote. If people attend from their desk, these tend to work out better & you avoid unintentional things that make it difficult for remote employees to attend.
Having the majority of conversations done via e-mail or a chat tool & properly documented in something like OneNote or Evernote or a project management tool goes a long way in keeping everyone on the same page as well. This is good for non-remote teams as well.
Allowing flexibility in time & location goes a long way in making happy employees in my experience. It shows you trust them to get the work done. Sure, some people will abuse it but those aren't people you want on your team anyways.
As stated by others, being a remote worker doesn't mean you need to be a hermit either. There are tons of ways to still go out & socialize with people. Even on remote teams, I still find a good chunk of my day is socializing via video chat meetings where someone is bound to go off topic. People also login early & chat about life.
Which “things that make it unintentionally difficult to attend” meetings for remote people are you referring to?
I won't presume to answer for the OP, but my (remote conference attendance) pet peeves include: I have printed out important information (but forgotten to email it); let me use the whiteboard that is mounted on the same wall as the camera to illustrate a concept; I will speak exactly loud enough so that only people in the room can here me; I will use the free tier of some conferencing service, and start the call fifteen minutes early so that the connection drops halfway through the meeting.
Well said. The biggest offenders are usually companies & not the remote employees. I am in a great spot where I don't experience these today but the most frequent I've seen are:
Poor microphones set up around the conference room that make it hard to hear everyone.
No webcam at all or a bad webcam setup that doesn't allow the remote attendees to see the gestures people make.
Multiple people talking at the same time, but having very quiet conversations.
Using a whiteboard, a projector or showing a screen by turning your computer around but not making it visible to remote attendees.
* Basically doing things that the remote people can't participate in.
Poor microphones set up around the conference room that make it hard to hear everyone.
No webcam at all or a bad webcam setup that doesn't allow the remote attendees to see the gestures people make.
Multiple people talking at the same time, but having very quiet conversations.
Using a whiteboard, a projector or showing a screen by turning your computer around but not making it visible to remote attendees.
* Basically doing things that the remote people can't participate in.
A few years ago, I was on a green-field project and one of the senior developers was remote. The rest of us were co-located in a "lab" (converted conference room). While our teleconferencing tools were mostly adequate, white-boarding was problematic. "Smart boards" aren't usually. We ended up with an extra webcam pointed at the board and just had to remember to plug it into whoever's laptop was leading the meeting. Not ideal, but worked ok.
Tools/Tech:
Poor teleconference tool.
Low quality headphones/microphones.
Low quality or no web cams.
Process:
Failure to auto-mute attendees when they join meeting
Failure to actively manage mute during the meeting (some nitwit always starts eating potato chips).
Failure to ensure mics are well placed in conference rooms.
Poor teleconference tool.
Low quality headphones/microphones.
Low quality or no web cams.
Process:
Failure to auto-mute attendees when they join meeting
Failure to actively manage mute during the meeting (some nitwit always starts eating potato chips).
Failure to ensure mics are well placed in conference rooms.
Do you have any sort of written out process for managing this? These are all spot on, and I think a literal manual for new remote employees would be helpful.
I don't. At one time, my employer had posters in most of the large conference rooms with pointers/rules.
And I've found remotes to be better at intuitively following those rules than local employees. Because locals are face-to-face, there's no audio/video quirks, and misc noise (chewing, paper rustling) tends to be way less distracting.
EDIT - remotes also have a serviceable webcam on their laptop. Meeting rooms need good wide-angle cameras installed so the entire room of people can be broadcast. Employer issues decent Jabra headsets to all employees, so audio is covered - so again, it's a matter of installed good A/V in the conference rooms (particularly number and placement of mics).
Our current teleconferencing solution is "Zoom" and so far, it's been far better than previous software (primarily WebEx and odd combinations of 800 numbers). It allows default meeting settings (by corporate account and by user) and "mute incoming attendees" is checked on mine.
Another common (but not universal) rule is "cameras are ON". We want to see each other's faces while chatting remotely.
EDIT2 - good AV equipment isn't cheap. I asked about adding a Polycom system to one of our small "huddle" rooms and it was many thousands of dollars - not deal-breaking for a mid-size enterprise operation, but also not something any of us could fund on the spot. IT is slowly adding them to the smaller rooms as funds become available (all rooms that seat >4 were done when we moved into the space).
And I've found remotes to be better at intuitively following those rules than local employees. Because locals are face-to-face, there's no audio/video quirks, and misc noise (chewing, paper rustling) tends to be way less distracting.
EDIT - remotes also have a serviceable webcam on their laptop. Meeting rooms need good wide-angle cameras installed so the entire room of people can be broadcast. Employer issues decent Jabra headsets to all employees, so audio is covered - so again, it's a matter of installed good A/V in the conference rooms (particularly number and placement of mics).
Our current teleconferencing solution is "Zoom" and so far, it's been far better than previous software (primarily WebEx and odd combinations of 800 numbers). It allows default meeting settings (by corporate account and by user) and "mute incoming attendees" is checked on mine.
Another common (but not universal) rule is "cameras are ON". We want to see each other's faces while chatting remotely.
EDIT2 - good AV equipment isn't cheap. I asked about adding a Polycom system to one of our small "huddle" rooms and it was many thousands of dollars - not deal-breaking for a mid-size enterprise operation, but also not something any of us could fund on the spot. IT is slowly adding them to the smaller rooms as funds become available (all rooms that seat >4 were done when we moved into the space).
I suspect that asking about "experiencing negative aftereffects of remote work" just means that people who think that their work life sucks and happen to be remotees are going to say "yes". I want to see the numbers for "negative aftereffects of on-site work".
I personally haven’t experienced any of these issues with remote work, but then I had many years of experience before my first remote position, as senior and often lead. I was the type to seldom seek help, but was often the one sought out for help. My theory is the more one is accostomed to working on their own, even in an office, the easier it is to work fully remote successfully. Has anyone else experienced this?
I agree that remote work needs a certain personality type. You need to be self sufficient but also be willing to reach out proactively when you have problems and not keep struggling in silence as I have seen before. This is a difficult balance for some people.
As far as depression and anxiety goes I get that from my current job sitting in a cube with constant noise and interruption. I feel it’s starting to really impact my mental health negatively.
In the end i don’t think remote work is for everybody. Some people will thrive with it and some people will thrive in an office. It’s good to know which you are.
As far as depression and anxiety goes I get that from my current job sitting in a cube with constant noise and interruption. I feel it’s starting to really impact my mental health negatively.
In the end i don’t think remote work is for everybody. Some people will thrive with it and some people will thrive in an office. It’s good to know which you are.
You raise a really crucial point about personality type. We were recently discussing the Myers-Briggs system at Quuu, and it turns out most of us are introverts.
I would also struggle with an office environment, so I feel for you! I hope you manage to find a solution to it. I think a lot of offices would do well to adopt some of the principles behind remote work. If employees are sacrificing something to come into an office each day, they should have more say in what that workspace is like when they're there. For example, being able to work in a quieter part of the building if noisy environments are draining for you.
I would also struggle with an office environment, so I feel for you! I hope you manage to find a solution to it. I think a lot of offices would do well to adopt some of the principles behind remote work. If employees are sacrificing something to come into an office each day, they should have more say in what that workspace is like when they're there. For example, being able to work in a quieter part of the building if noisy environments are draining for you.
> You need to be self sufficient but also be willing to reach out proactively when you have problems
It's not that different from sitting in a cube, at least for software development. It's just threshold when something becomes a problem to reach out for help is higher for remote work, since it takes a bit more effort to communicate. You do a bit more so you have something to show and to discuss, not try to reach out for every little thing.
It's not that different from sitting in a cube, at least for software development. It's just threshold when something becomes a problem to reach out for help is higher for remote work, since it takes a bit more effort to communicate. You do a bit more so you have something to show and to discuss, not try to reach out for every little thing.
When I worked remotely there were people that were incredibly needy and every 10 minutes asked me about stuff they could easily have gotten from a web search and others got bogged down for weeks with issues that could be resolved in five minutes.
I always felt that good remote workers are very mature, communicate well and are respectful of others . I guess that applies to office work too but remote amplifies this.
I always felt that good remote workers are very mature, communicate well and are respectful of others . I guess that applies to office work too but remote amplifies this.
I believe remote work amplifies everything. Inefficiencies, poor organization, bad documentation, poor communication, poor work ethic. Any stresses start to form cracks when taken out of the office environment. The upside is all of the things that a successful remote team requires are the things that you should be doing anyway.
I am grateful that I did not work remote at the start of my career (it was not an option offered to me), because it would have been hard to find the self-drive & hand-holding I needed at the beginning of my career all by myself. But I agree with you; remote work is better suited for people who are accustomed to working by themselves. It might not be for everyone. And I certainly do not recommend it at the onset of one's career.
The difficulty is if all the junior are working on site for mentorship and the development of good habits, if the seniors are away, who'll teach them that?
I’m the same. I much prefer working from home and don’t suffer from the issues in this post. I think aside from having a personality well suited to remote work, my experience being an entrepreneur helps a lot. Nothing is more isolating than being a sole founder in my opinion. Working remote with a team is more than enough interaction for me. When I’m working in an office a lot of my time gets eaten in meetings that more often than not didn’t need to happen. Remote work forces the whole team to be more disciplined in how the work/time is structured.
I will say this advice seems highly tuned to a different generation than mine. I really don’t want my company talking to me about “self care” or playing weird slack games (slack itself is great for remote though).
I will say this advice seems highly tuned to a different generation than mine. I really don’t want my company talking to me about “self care” or playing weird slack games (slack itself is great for remote though).
I agree, I personally have no issue with working from home but both like my own company and am used to self motivating. I can imagine if you'd worked from an office for years then moved to remote work, you'd find it hard.
I have learned the hard way that I am not good at remote work.
I recognize that I'm in the minority here, but I actually need to get up, have a shower, leave my flat and go into an office with people for my mental health.
I have zero issue with other people working remotely, in fact I envy them.
I recognize that I'm in the minority here, but I actually need to get up, have a shower, leave my flat and go into an office with people for my mental health.
I have zero issue with other people working remotely, in fact I envy them.
Have you tried a co-working space? For me it helped me a lot
I used to think I was good at working remotely, but lately have had a similar revelation. It's magnified by the fact that my entire team is remote, so even when I go into the office, it's not the team's office - it's a remote office. I can focus pretty well at home, as my kids are adults and my wife works, but this aspect of it is becoming a problem that I am looking for other ways to solve in another way than "go to the office and talk to people".
Sounds like your only social life is from work.
I feel the same as op and struggle to work from home but my social life is plenty active outside work. I would describe it more like a preference to not have a TV in your bedroom. It helps to have that separation. The suggestion to try a coworking space is maybe a good one because I know many friends that are fine waking up and working in pajamas but I have to shower and leave the house to feel good about my headspace
It's not even that, it's like I mentally have trouble kick-starting my day without going through that routine of having a shower, brushing my teeth, leaving the flat. When WFH, some days I am no further along at 3pm than I was at 9pm, then come the deadlines.
Definitely something I wish I had figured out years earlier.
Definitely something I wish I had figured out years earlier.
It is beyond critical that you keep your routine! Remote or not. Wake up, gym, shower, etc.
A lot of the comments seem to be about remote work as some preference or something; the biggest driver I’ve seen though, however, is that housing is unaffordable near the office. Remote work makes housing more affordable for many folks. It also seems like it skews towards older folks, likely due to having families and children needing more room and better schools.
This is a really good point! Remote work has massive socio-political implications. Really enjoyed discussing this aspect of remote work in this podcast interview with Liam Martin, founder of Running Remote: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/s2-e10-liam-martin/id1...
But on the other hand you have to wonder about the greater social implications down the line. The invention of the car was great at first. It allowed people to get where they wanted to go faster. But as it was adopted more and more heavily, we ended up with traffic and sprawl that mean people have to spend more of their time commuting than before.
I wonder if something analogous would happen with remote work. If more companies go the remote route, wouldn't we expect them to favor employees in cheap locations that will accept less pay for the same work? And if that's the case, wouldn't more and more families be forced out of more expensive locations, even those who could afford to live there before? In other words, remote work has the possibility to exacerbate the very problems that it seeks to fix.
I wonder if something analogous would happen with remote work. If more companies go the remote route, wouldn't we expect them to favor employees in cheap locations that will accept less pay for the same work? And if that's the case, wouldn't more and more families be forced out of more expensive locations, even those who could afford to live there before? In other words, remote work has the possibility to exacerbate the very problems that it seeks to fix.
If there was less demand for expensive areas, the market would adjust and they would become less expensive. The overall effect would be an averaging effect on real estate prices as cheaper areas became more expensive and expensive areas cheaper.
But it seems quite possible that incomes could fall faster than demand given there are other factors influencing demand like foreign buyers. And the money saved by employers would make many already rich people significantly richer. Perhaps the nice areas of the country would just become a playground for the rich (more so than they already are) while everyone else is in dystopian exurbs and suburbs.
This. Rent for an efficiency apartment within walking distance of my work is 4k a month. I rent a 3 bedroom house 40 minutes away for 1400. The ability to work remotely helps keep costs down significantly.
Yes it's insane. I save about $30k+ on housing costs working remote and am still in California.
I work for a startup that does not have funding. I moved from socal to Tijuana and my cost of living is about 40-60% less. I could not continue working on this startup without being remote.
With virtually no tech companies offering private offices any more, this isn't surprising. Companies won't give employees what they need, so employees are hacking the system to find a way to get it anyway.
One of the first steps given here for remote work is to "set-up or find a space that lets you stay productive", which will enable you to "Stay focused on tasks and be able to fully disconnect whenever required". Sound familiar?
That's what private office advocates have been saying for years. The only difference is that companies refuse to allow this within the walls of the company. I'm surprised the companies aren't also pushing to have these people reclassified as independent contractors and not employees.
One of the first steps given here for remote work is to "set-up or find a space that lets you stay productive", which will enable you to "Stay focused on tasks and be able to fully disconnect whenever required". Sound familiar?
That's what private office advocates have been saying for years. The only difference is that companies refuse to allow this within the walls of the company. I'm surprised the companies aren't also pushing to have these people reclassified as independent contractors and not employees.
I wonder how much of this doesn't actually have to do with the home, but rather office conditions:
- open seating and/or highly sound-reflective surfaces
- unfixable A/C and/or drafts and/or allergens
- all methods of transportation to the place where the office is are unsupported (e.g. Cambridge, MA)
- jerks cruising the office
- unwanted attention not or only pretentiously connected to work
- open seating and/or highly sound-reflective surfaces
- unfixable A/C and/or drafts and/or allergens
- all methods of transportation to the place where the office is are unsupported (e.g. Cambridge, MA)
- jerks cruising the office
- unwanted attention not or only pretentiously connected to work
That can all easily be fixed. I'm currently working on a short term job at Statnett in Oslo. The office is all open plan but there are loads of small sound proofed rooms of various sizes that you can use for a work conversation. It's frowned upon to have a long or loud conversation at your desk. You just pick up your laptop and go to a little conference room. Some are just big enough for three people but they all have a big screen and conferencing tools.
Each floor also has an area where you can relax with a cup of tea or coffee and read the newspaper.
Desks are all motorised so you can adjust the height and use them standing if you like, the desks are not personal although those who work most of the time in the office do use the same desk all the time.
The environment is quiet, the temperature is pleasant, there are automatic blinds on the windows shut out the sun when it is too strong.
For me it works really well. If I have a meeting then I go in early, find a desk and work, go to the meeting, back to the desk and do some work, then finish the day just as though it was an ordinary office day.
But I agree, there are plenty of places (I've worked in some) where all of your negative office conditions apply.
Each floor also has an area where you can relax with a cup of tea or coffee and read the newspaper.
Desks are all motorised so you can adjust the height and use them standing if you like, the desks are not personal although those who work most of the time in the office do use the same desk all the time.
The environment is quiet, the temperature is pleasant, there are automatic blinds on the windows shut out the sun when it is too strong.
For me it works really well. If I have a meeting then I go in early, find a desk and work, go to the meeting, back to the desk and do some work, then finish the day just as though it was an ordinary office day.
But I agree, there are plenty of places (I've worked in some) where all of your negative office conditions apply.
Sidetrack: do you know how hard/easy is it for a United Statesian to get a job in Norway? It's kind of a dream of mine to live and work in Norway for a while.
Assuming that you can find an employer who needs your expertise then I don't think it should be especially difficult. At least it should be easier than it was when I moved here in January 1986 when I had to provide the Norwegian Embassy in London with a stack of documentation proving that the company that was going to employ me had tried for six months to find a Norwegian who could do the job and failed before they would issue a work permit.
Anyway, Norway is a very transparent society with a well integrated government web site so you should be able to find the details here: https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/
Anyway, Norway is a very transparent society with a well integrated government web site so you should be able to find the details here: https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/
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I've worked in Cambridge MA for 10ish years and lived in JP and/or Somerville for as long, not sure what you mean by unsupported? Do you mean "long commutes"?
The biggest benefit of remote work is that it directly rewards productivity. At an office if you finish your work early you can’t just go home; you’re expected to do more work. With remote work, if you finish in 2 hours what takes other people your rank 8, you can stockpile commits and just take the day off.
I don't like your reasoning. I think it's selfish. You can always help out for the duration that you are paid for, regardless of tempo. There's almost always work to be done - cleaning up code, commenting, refactoring, documentation (api/sdk usage, help), cleaning up tasks, responding to e-mails, and so on.
I don't think it's fair that you idle while someone is paying for your time.
Someone, at the end, organized this so you can work remotely. Someone is taking care of you financially, at the end. The least you can do is do what you have agreed/promised/been contracted to do.
I don't think it's fair that you idle while someone is paying for your time.
Someone, at the end, organized this so you can work remotely. Someone is taking care of you financially, at the end. The least you can do is do what you have agreed/promised/been contracted to do.
This only works in a job where you have a particular definition of "done." In most knowledge work, there's always something you could be working on.
I think it's worth mentioning how remote work makes society more sustainable.
The energy usage and CO2 output for commuting versus using the internet is dramatically in favor of remote work.
In fact, if we are concerned with those things, I believe that commuting every day for jobs that can be done online should be illegal.
The energy usage and CO2 output for commuting versus using the internet is dramatically in favor of remote work.
In fact, if we are concerned with those things, I believe that commuting every day for jobs that can be done online should be illegal.
I have worked remotely and also managed a remote team. There are causes of remote work that I consider positive, and causes I consider negative. The positive causes are that companies have access to a much wider pool of talent all over the world, and remote workers have more jobs to choose from. The negative causes are: 1) many cities are failing to provide affordable housing, so it doesn't make financial sense for people on the same team to work in physical proximity to each other. 2) there has been a wave of xenophobia in the Western liberal economies that has made it more difficult for talent outside those economies to migrate.
> We tend to think of mental health disorders as something that happens to others
Oh, that's hilarious. I certainly don't.
Oh, that's hilarious. I certainly don't.
Your manager makes all the difference. Having a remote manager is the key.
Is remote overtime that bad? I guess I'll consent to put work at 10 hours a day (1 hour break included), in exchange of 1 hour commute time.
I wanna try remote working, wonder how it'll goes through.
I wanna try remote working, wonder how it'll goes through.
Personally, I tend to work much longer hours when I'm remote.
Some of that is that the commute is shorter, so I can start work earlier and stop it later without while keeping the same amount of time at home.
Some of that is that my lunch breaks are typically much shorter. I don't have to take time to go to a restaurant if I fail to pack a lunch in the morning, and I'm much less likely to spend a while after lunch just chit-chatting with my colleagues.
A big part of it is that I just don't mind working longer hours when I'm remote, because the experience of working is more pleasurable - fewer distractions, I can listen to music without headphones, the lighting is much more pleasant (I made sure to give myself a window office at home), the people furnishing my home office were kind enough to buy me a chair that doesn't make my back ache, etc. etc. At an office, when the end of the day rolls around, I can't wait to get out of there. Working remotely, I'd rather finish up whatever I was in the middle of before shoving off for the day.
Some of that is that the commute is shorter, so I can start work earlier and stop it later without while keeping the same amount of time at home.
Some of that is that my lunch breaks are typically much shorter. I don't have to take time to go to a restaurant if I fail to pack a lunch in the morning, and I'm much less likely to spend a while after lunch just chit-chatting with my colleagues.
A big part of it is that I just don't mind working longer hours when I'm remote, because the experience of working is more pleasurable - fewer distractions, I can listen to music without headphones, the lighting is much more pleasant (I made sure to give myself a window office at home), the people furnishing my home office were kind enough to buy me a chair that doesn't make my back ache, etc. etc. At an office, when the end of the day rolls around, I can't wait to get out of there. Working remotely, I'd rather finish up whatever I was in the middle of before shoving off for the day.
I assume you don't have a wife and kids around your home office? Because in my experience it's much harder to train them to let me concentrate than colleagues.
The opposite for me. You can tell your child to be quiet and respect your space. It’s a political gamble to tell the VP Sales that taking calls all day next to your desk is impacting your ability to focus.
Also, get a locking door for your home office. Kids will learn that locked door == parent is working.
Also, get a locking door for your home office. Kids will learn that locked door == parent is working.
Doesn't even have to be locking, just closing. The general convention at our house is that closed door means "send me a text message or ask the other parent", open door means, "sure, come say hi".
It's been a day or two since I've had a closing door at a co-located office, so I'm not used to being able to implement such a policy in that kind of work environment.
(I'd also add that there's no quicker way to recharge your batteries than to pop out of the office to spend 10 minutes building a block tower or whatever with your kids. 14/10 much more effective than bitching about work with your colleagues in the office kitchenette.)
It's been a day or two since I've had a closing door at a co-located office, so I'm not used to being able to implement such a policy in that kind of work environment.
(I'd also add that there's no quicker way to recharge your batteries than to pop out of the office to spend 10 minutes building a block tower or whatever with your kids. 14/10 much more effective than bitching about work with your colleagues in the office kitchenette.)
I think consenting explicitly to a 10 hour day would be a mistake. Remote work shouldn’t be a privilege you pay for with more work. When I work from home I generally set a goal to finish something that day. If it takes longer than 8 hours I’ll do overtime but if I am done at 2 pm I may also call it a day.
I tend to take time off during the day. I find my most productive time is usually around 18-21, so I’ll work 10-15 and 19-21
I agree. Enforcing on your personal productive hours can be a good thing for remote work. In the office you have to force yourself to get into the zone which sometimes could prove impossible: noise, meetings, etc.
It really depends on the company; the culture is a huge issue. Be wary of any company where remote workers are not a big percentage of the employees - it will be a constant, up-hill battle against negative perception. Even the best companies, against their best intentions, will tend to view equivalent remote employees as more negative than their local counterparts. It's just human nature to place people we can see and easily interact with as more important than those "others". I think a good chunk of that goes away once established, and everyone knows you, but even then I think there's a stead decay in your reputation that you need to fight against.
As for the personal effects of remote work, I find them almost entirely awesome, but I have a wife and son that I can interact with, but who are also out of the house during the day. You get to schedule your day more in your liking. I'm more productive first thing in the morning, and then once again in late evening. In the afternoon, I prefer to get up and move around more, as I get sleepy. Plus, you can generally live a heathier life, as you can go for walks, exercise, do chores, etc. when you are having lulls in productivity.
I'm back to a local company now, and switching from local to remote to local has definitely highlighted a lot of the differences. It's sooo much easier to maintain perception when you are local; if your manager or others have concerns you can see it and chat with them about things quickly and easily. My local boss knows why things might be taking longer, because I'm talking to him, intermittently every day.
It's also easier to come up to speed when working locally, a 15 minute face-to-face talk is easily worth an hour of remote slack/video chatting. Not to mention that text chats (even with slack) tends to suffer a lot more from misreads and misunderstandings of intentions. If you and I meet in the morning and I see you are cranky because you were dealing with your upset toddler all morning, I'm probably going to commiserate with you a bit before asking you tech questions, or I might skip them for now. Over Slack, I don't know that, and so I'm likely going to accidentally bug you and you, against your best desires, are going to respond more curtly, which will rub me the wrong way, then suddenly everything is more negative.
Definitely, the best way to do remote is to either know your boss ahead of time, or do local work for a while (months) and then transition to remote. Then the trust is built up, the tech transfer has largely happened, and generally everyone gets to know each other better first.
But when it works, I find it awesome.
As for the personal effects of remote work, I find them almost entirely awesome, but I have a wife and son that I can interact with, but who are also out of the house during the day. You get to schedule your day more in your liking. I'm more productive first thing in the morning, and then once again in late evening. In the afternoon, I prefer to get up and move around more, as I get sleepy. Plus, you can generally live a heathier life, as you can go for walks, exercise, do chores, etc. when you are having lulls in productivity.
I'm back to a local company now, and switching from local to remote to local has definitely highlighted a lot of the differences. It's sooo much easier to maintain perception when you are local; if your manager or others have concerns you can see it and chat with them about things quickly and easily. My local boss knows why things might be taking longer, because I'm talking to him, intermittently every day.
It's also easier to come up to speed when working locally, a 15 minute face-to-face talk is easily worth an hour of remote slack/video chatting. Not to mention that text chats (even with slack) tends to suffer a lot more from misreads and misunderstandings of intentions. If you and I meet in the morning and I see you are cranky because you were dealing with your upset toddler all morning, I'm probably going to commiserate with you a bit before asking you tech questions, or I might skip them for now. Over Slack, I don't know that, and so I'm likely going to accidentally bug you and you, against your best desires, are going to respond more curtly, which will rub me the wrong way, then suddenly everything is more negative.
Definitely, the best way to do remote is to either know your boss ahead of time, or do local work for a while (months) and then transition to remote. Then the trust is built up, the tech transfer has largely happened, and generally everyone gets to know each other better first.
But when it works, I find it awesome.
Have any other tips on how to fight the decay in reputation while working remote?
I would consider the largest risk with remote work to be "out of sight, out of mind" for consideration of promotions or even job referrals by colleagues.
I very much have the personality for remote work and largely like to figure out things on my own but the drawbacks feel significant enough to keep me in the office for now...
I would consider the largest risk with remote work to be "out of sight, out of mind" for consideration of promotions or even job referrals by colleagues.
I very much have the personality for remote work and largely like to figure out things on my own but the drawbacks feel significant enough to keep me in the office for now...
The ideal is to work remotely for a boss that already knows you. If not that, then I would focus very strongly on the adage that you need to make your boss look good. If you can do that, then your boss will sing your praises. I (unknowingly) had a boss that wasn't doing that at my last position, and it was probably the main thing that caused things to go poorly.
To avoid problems with intentions, put a rule or something? so everyone must expect that every comment comes from good intentions.
Why?
1 your reducing your effective hourly rate - and presumably your salary is less for remote. 2 It Development is a salaried role so you in theory have no fixed hours.
1 your reducing your effective hourly rate - and presumably your salary is less for remote. 2 It Development is a salaried role so you in theory have no fixed hours.
Because I prefer it rather than commuting. On the other hand, I believe that my effective working hour shall be unchanged (ex: 4 hours a day for usual programmer). The rest (additional hour) shall be filled with analysis, discussion or chit chat beside taking short breaks during working hours. Don't know though, haven't done any remote working.
Well I work locally as opposed to commuting to London I don't work extra hours locally for free because of that.
I've been working remotely for about nine months now and use my kids kindergarten schedule as my hard stop so don't accidentally overwork. Other peoples experiences might be different but I think guarding my work/life balance is much easier working remotely.
I work from home.
My schedule is:-
6.50am wake up
7.00am start work
12.00pm lunch
1.00pm start work
5.00pm dinner
6.00pm start work
9.45pm get ready for bed
10.00pm sleep
I don't have any distractions (except the occasional quick read of HN, when I need a short mental break), don't own a tv, no kids, wear the same clothes, I eat the same meals daily and I wear headphones and listen to music.
I'll do this for 90 days and then relax on the schedule somewhat and then repeat for another 90 days.
Let me tell you. It's actually quite interesting on what you can accomplish with 13 hours of work (91 hours a week) available to you.
Elon has it right. In a compound interest sort of way, what you can achieve in 90 days (with this schedule) is akin to someone else taking 6 months or more to do the same.
Of course it means no social life. But that's for later on.
My schedule is:-
6.50am wake up
7.00am start work
12.00pm lunch
1.00pm start work
5.00pm dinner
6.00pm start work
9.45pm get ready for bed
10.00pm sleep
I don't have any distractions (except the occasional quick read of HN, when I need a short mental break), don't own a tv, no kids, wear the same clothes, I eat the same meals daily and I wear headphones and listen to music.
I'll do this for 90 days and then relax on the schedule somewhat and then repeat for another 90 days.
Let me tell you. It's actually quite interesting on what you can accomplish with 13 hours of work (91 hours a week) available to you.
Elon has it right. In a compound interest sort of way, what you can achieve in 90 days (with this schedule) is akin to someone else taking 6 months or more to do the same.
Of course it means no social life. But that's for later on.
Then one day you're crossing the street, someone on a car can't see you behind their A pillar, and this was all for nothing =/
Life is happening right now, not later on. Vision acuity, muscle tenacity, disposition, hell, even liver performance – these won't wait for you :-)
What are you working for, actually?
Life is happening right now, not later on. Vision acuity, muscle tenacity, disposition, hell, even liver performance – these won't wait for you :-)
What are you working for, actually?
I have never in my life been paid nearly enough to spend this much time working. The physicians I know literally making 4x my salary aren't consistently working this much, so you must be quite well-compensated.
How long have you been doing this? And I'm confused on what you mean by "Of course it means no social life. But that's for later on." - Do you have a spouse or significant other? Do you not think that having social interactions are important at all points in life?
This whole schedule is super bleak and reads like an intro to a dystopian novel
Just curious how long you were able to maintain this routine for? Personally, I would only last for about 1 week on this type of routine, and my body and family life would just fail on me. Not something I personally wish to put at risk.
One small thing I want to add is that as someone with many hobbies and goals not related to my job I love the idea of getting X amount of work done and then being done as early as 2 or 3.
Those extra hours to make more progress on whatever personal project(s) I'm working on at that time keep me motivated and, more importantly, happy. Which means I'll enjoy doing my actual work more (or just tolerate it better) and you'll probably get better results from me.
Those extra hours to make more progress on whatever personal project(s) I'm working on at that time keep me motivated and, more importantly, happy. Which means I'll enjoy doing my actual work more (or just tolerate it better) and you'll probably get better results from me.
I wouldn't want to work 100% remotely, mostly because of the loneliness they talk about. But I would probably take it over my current situation of working in an open office 100% of the time, because open offices are a special level of hell for anyone with attention issues or sensory sensitivities.
Also, do people actually think "infinite vacation" is a perk? I like having a fixed number of vacation days that I can take without question or explanation.
Also, do people actually think "infinite vacation" is a perk? I like having a fixed number of vacation days that I can take without question or explanation.
> do people actually think "infinite vacation" is a perk? I like having a fixed number of vacation days that I can take without question or explanation.
It really depends on your manager and what the fixed number is going to be.
At my last job, I had "infinite" and my boss let me take six weeks over the course of a year.
At my current job, my boss would love to let me take 6 weeks (or more), but the giant behemoth of a company sets the limit at 3 weeks (but I get another week if I stay in my job for 10 years).
It really depends on your manager and what the fixed number is going to be.
At my last job, I had "infinite" and my boss let me take six weeks over the course of a year.
At my current job, my boss would love to let me take 6 weeks (or more), but the giant behemoth of a company sets the limit at 3 weeks (but I get another week if I stay in my job for 10 years).
The loneliness is real. I've been combatting the loneliness a few ways. I think it's important that if you are working remote, you don't have 8 hours of "butt in seat" time. If the expectations are that you need a butt in a seat for 8 hour stretches, then you probably work for a company that has a bad remote work culture.
1. make lunch plans with friends and peers.
2. go to networking meetups
3. personal development unrelated to work. take a class. start a garden, build something at home. Go to the park. Take extra walks. go to the grocery store. Do things that are really annoying to do outside of normal work hours.
I don't think I'm a cliche software dev. I don't like sitting in my cave all day. I don't play video games. I don't watch much TV. It's really important for me to get human interaction beyond the workplace.
I find that as a possible introverted extrovert, working in an office sapped my social energies and I wasn't able to socialize outside of work. As a remote worker, all of my socialization is on my terms. I get to devote my energy into people that I desire to be around, while before my energy was getting drained by small track from folks, while nice people, were not people I wanted to spend my limited energy on.
1. make lunch plans with friends and peers.
2. go to networking meetups
3. personal development unrelated to work. take a class. start a garden, build something at home. Go to the park. Take extra walks. go to the grocery store. Do things that are really annoying to do outside of normal work hours.
I don't think I'm a cliche software dev. I don't like sitting in my cave all day. I don't play video games. I don't watch much TV. It's really important for me to get human interaction beyond the workplace.
I find that as a possible introverted extrovert, working in an office sapped my social energies and I wasn't able to socialize outside of work. As a remote worker, all of my socialization is on my terms. I get to devote my energy into people that I desire to be around, while before my energy was getting drained by small track from folks, while nice people, were not people I wanted to spend my limited energy on.
It appears to me that work environment is a personal preference based on an array of personality traits and motivations mostly opaque to most people until they've had a chance to try a few out. Further, it seems that the preferences fall into a few categories that are broadly represented in the population. Each has objective pros and cons but for any individual, the cons are easily outweighed by our preferences and motivations.
Once you realize this, articles regarding "X environment has Y good and Z bad" stop providing any value. What I want to read about is how to effectively manage a company to allow my employees to 1) discover the environment they prefer 2) be in that environment and 3) maintain a high performing team across those environments. Given considerations around maintaining culture, communication challenges and "informal, de-facto decision makers" forming up where people to choose to work closely together, #3 is a challenge I haven't seen a good answer to. (e.g. office or co-working employees naturally have a networking advantage and can quickly form an "in group" that makes decisions while, at best, unconsciously leaving remote workers out)
Once you realize this, articles regarding "X environment has Y good and Z bad" stop providing any value. What I want to read about is how to effectively manage a company to allow my employees to 1) discover the environment they prefer 2) be in that environment and 3) maintain a high performing team across those environments. Given considerations around maintaining culture, communication challenges and "informal, de-facto decision makers" forming up where people to choose to work closely together, #3 is a challenge I haven't seen a good answer to. (e.g. office or co-working employees naturally have a networking advantage and can quickly form an "in group" that makes decisions while, at best, unconsciously leaving remote workers out)
I would love to work remotely- I am already productive when working from home on a big monitor in a quiet room- but I always worry that eventually I'd become decoupled from my coworkers and isolated.
Also there are many things at my startup where we really all need to be in the same place to make a decision- I don't think slack or other chat apps can really replace the high bandwidth in person discussions for important decision making.
Also there are many things at my startup where we really all need to be in the same place to make a decision- I don't think slack or other chat apps can really replace the high bandwidth in person discussions for important decision making.
Been working remotely for 4 years and so far it worked really well. One of the key factors is that most of the team is remote. So remote is a default here. In the previous position, we had some people working remotely, and it was tough for them. They'd miss a lot of context for why some decisions were made and it was very frustrating. So I'd put that at the very top of the list of things to have for remote work risks.
> Intentionally carve a space and routine and set up a separate remote working space
Yes. It's very important to have a separate "office" space. Then get dressed in the morning, get ready as if you're heading out of the door to an actual office. In the evening at 5pm close the laptop, walk out of the office and closer the door behind you. And you're done for the day.
> Intentionally carve a space and routine and set up a separate remote working space
Yes. It's very important to have a separate "office" space. Then get dressed in the morning, get ready as if you're heading out of the door to an actual office. In the evening at 5pm close the laptop, walk out of the office and closer the door behind you. And you're done for the day.
Is it that people love remote working, or that they hate commuting?
I would prefer a 20 min commute on a clean train, to a nice office than remote working (and I did have that on an Amsterdam based contract).
But an hour plus drive to an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere - I'd maybe push for a remote option.
I would prefer a 20 min commute on a clean train, to a nice office than remote working (and I did have that on an Amsterdam based contract).
But an hour plus drive to an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere - I'd maybe push for a remote option.
I am a data scientist with little to nothing in common with my colleagues (particularly on the engineering side), outside of us working for the same company. I'd rather spend my time with my wife and kids, pursuing my hobbies, and generally being outdoors. Not having to commute or waste hours pretending to be interested in my colleague's lives outside of work is a huge benefit. Side conversations occurring at the office which are beneficial are a rare occurrence - put more specifically, I am willing to risk missing out on in office perks to benefit my own life. When I hit my financial number, I won't write code, conduct analysis or do anything near a computer screen again.
This made me chuckle, all power to you! How many of us would work in our current role if money were genuinely no object - in reality there are far more rewarding things to be doing with our limited time on this planet.
I thought our (you and me) mindset was normal, that if money weren't an issue no would work, but I have been mistaken many times. I am not sure if people don't have interests outside of their work, or their work is their interests but it seems many people would continue working if financially secure.
Introvert here. Just being around people is usually straining. I guess I also suffer some kind of social anxiety or whateverthehellitis. It's difficult to relax and focus with people around.
When I commuted, the commute was the best part of the day because I got to relax and sit alone in my car. Stepping out of the car at the company parking lot was always nauseating.
That said I'm still glad I needn't commute anymore. Life is short, I will die. I feel like I can do better with my life than spend it sitting in a car.
When I commuted, the commute was the best part of the day because I got to relax and sit alone in my car. Stepping out of the car at the company parking lot was always nauseating.
That said I'm still glad I needn't commute anymore. Life is short, I will die. I feel like I can do better with my life than spend it sitting in a car.
I see, I think there are quite a few developers who feel that way. It is crazy for a company not to accommodate that, if it truly wants to recruit from the best talent pool available
We're big proponents of location flexibility in the workplace at Out Of Office. Work doesn't have to be so black and white with 100% in the office or 100% remote work. We think a combination of both working in the office and offering employees one or two flexible days to work from home or a coffee shop leads to higher employee retention.
I'm 100% remote but have never experienced some of the downsides mentioned in the article, but I know others who have. I'd like to see companies transition from their rigid policies to more flexibility that gives their employees greater control over their schedule.
I'm 100% remote but have never experienced some of the downsides mentioned in the article, but I know others who have. I'd like to see companies transition from their rigid policies to more flexibility that gives their employees greater control over their schedule.
I think there is a sort of subconscious push for this that not everyone attributes. In tech work if you are at an office you tend to get "dump trucked" work even if it is not your domain or responsibility. "I gave it to you its yours now figure it out"
The reality is bad management is the rule rather than the exception in most of the world. If you are home you are "out of sight out of mind" for MBWA(management by walking around)managers. At the very least it requires a manager to stop think before just running over and screaming we need this done today type stuff.
The reality is bad management is the rule rather than the exception in most of the world. If you are home you are "out of sight out of mind" for MBWA(management by walking around)managers. At the very least it requires a manager to stop think before just running over and screaming we need this done today type stuff.
Last contract i was on everyone was remote. I ended up driving in everyday to work on the systems because i was one of 3 people who lived in the same city as the systems.
I could hardly ever get ahold of anyone. They would just not be there. Come to find out most would only work the 4 core hours (10-2 CST) we were required, then "work" after hours when no one was online. We lost the contract.
Remote CAN work and work well, you just need management in place to keep the ducks in line.
I could hardly ever get ahold of anyone. They would just not be there. Come to find out most would only work the 4 core hours (10-2 CST) we were required, then "work" after hours when no one was online. We lost the contract.
Remote CAN work and work well, you just need management in place to keep the ducks in line.
The optimal situation for me is having the freedom to decide whether it makes sense to be at the office for meetings, technical discussions, ideas; or whether I need full uninterrupted focus which is easier to achieve at home (without building closing times, commuting, and with the choice to work late into the night). I think purely remote work would make me feel very self-centered and disconnected (even though I'm leaning towards the introvert spectrum).
I wonder if the author misread the poll referenced in this article. When people choose remote work, often they are referring to the ability to work 1 or 2 days remotely in a week. Most companies in the Bay Area allow that and are quite flexible on where you work from if you are traveling. I don't think that can extrapolated to being fully remote
The poll asks what is most important to you, and they failed to leave out salary and other more obvious ones as one of the options.
It would be a much more sound poll if it was framed as "Among these options, which one is the most important when looking for a new job"
It would be a much more sound poll if it was framed as "Among these options, which one is the most important when looking for a new job"
In the US it's generally frowned upon to acknowledge one considers salary a very important factor, unless one is at the top of the hierarchy. There's a reason "passionate" and "mission driven" are memes in the hiring landscape here.
One enormous ad that won't go away and can't be closed. Sweet.
I've always hated working from home. Too much distraction, not enough verbal interaction with my team, and not enough face-time with my boss and his boss. Now that I'm a manager and manage a team that is remote to me (but colocated for everyone else including my boss) it's just terrible. I'm now a remote worker, while the rest of my team is mostly in-office. And yes that means that my boss goes directly to my team to get stuff done completely bypassing me. Sometimes he'll let me know, sometimes I find out after the fact. It's basically the worst of both worlds and I would never do this again.
I know everyone is different, and noisy offices can be disruptive to some, but I can't help think that an ulterior motive with working from home is working less.
Maybe work from home will be how we reduce the workweek to account for the diminishing need for work.
Maybe work from home will be how we reduce the workweek to account for the diminishing need for work.
Eliminating dead time is definitely part of it. However if a thinking based worker doesn't feel like working, it doesn't matter if they're sitting at an office. There's no way to verify whether they're thinking about a work related problem or thinking about their vacation plans. On top of that, in a lot of cases people can get away even with just blatant non-working like reading Hacker News on their work computer. Thus it's always about trust anyway. It doesn't matter much where the worker physically is.
Additionally, it's results not methods that should be managed. You want to set goals for your workers and see how they progress. Whether they achieve those goals sitting at an office or by outsouring their work to their little nephew while playing video games, it shouldn't really matter. Ultimately what matters is if the goals are achieved, as that's why you're paying the person -- not because you want them to physically be doing some specific activity.
Additionally, it's results not methods that should be managed. You want to set goals for your workers and see how they progress. Whether they achieve those goals sitting at an office or by outsouring their work to their little nephew while playing video games, it shouldn't really matter. Ultimately what matters is if the goals are achieved, as that's why you're paying the person -- not because you want them to physically be doing some specific activity.
There are certainly people who don't do well working at home, and people who try to take advantage, but as you say, everyone is different. If anything I work more when I don't work out of an office. Not only do I spend more time at my computer--since my office setup is handy at all times of day and on the weekends--but I feel more productive while I'm doing it.
For example, at the office, if I feel unmotivated (or stressed out/distracted by the noise/chatter/other people), my only real options for a context switch are to take a walk, or get a snack or coffee, none of which really gets me going again... But at home I can easily go downstairs and accomplish something like washing the dishes or a load of laundry, which gets my mind back in the right space of accomplishing tasks. And if I'm doing that and something comes up, I'm 10 seconds away from my desk and I can be back working much faster than if I were 10 minutes away at the coffee shop.
For example, at the office, if I feel unmotivated (or stressed out/distracted by the noise/chatter/other people), my only real options for a context switch are to take a walk, or get a snack or coffee, none of which really gets me going again... But at home I can easily go downstairs and accomplish something like washing the dishes or a load of laundry, which gets my mind back in the right space of accomplishing tasks. And if I'm doing that and something comes up, I'm 10 seconds away from my desk and I can be back working much faster than if I were 10 minutes away at the coffee shop.
I can sort of understand the scepticism, but it's relatively easy to see whether someone is working or not. Especially if you have tools like git, and any tool that tracks tasks/progress etc.
Also, people can work less and just exist more, albeit physically closer to you.
In the end, you'll only be able to measure the amount of work they've done similarly in both cases: remote or regular. It'll be a combination of seeing the progress, understanding the tasks and gauging whether they've been done in reasonable time, etc.
You can do all of this in the case of a remote worker.
Speaking for myself, I am vastly more productive in a remote, quiet place (home). Easily 5x more productive, or perhaps even more.
I cannot understand people working mentally demanding jobs and being interrupted all the time.
Also, people can work less and just exist more, albeit physically closer to you.
In the end, you'll only be able to measure the amount of work they've done similarly in both cases: remote or regular. It'll be a combination of seeing the progress, understanding the tasks and gauging whether they've been done in reasonable time, etc.
You can do all of this in the case of a remote worker.
Speaking for myself, I am vastly more productive in a remote, quiet place (home). Easily 5x more productive, or perhaps even more.
I cannot understand people working mentally demanding jobs and being interrupted all the time.
When I was younger I was full-time remote for more than five years, and at the time I enjoyed it. There was some difficulty separating work from life when it all happened in one apartment, but overall it was a good fit.
Then I had kids, and that distinction became much harder. Little children have a really hard time understanding that mom or dad is right there in the other room but can’t play now. At that point moving to an office job became a really nice change.
As a hiring manager, what I’ve found is that there aren’t so many people who truly want to work from home all the time. Rather, what most people want is flexibility and compromise. For example:
- “I want to work from home on Tuesdays and Thursdays so I can easily pick my kids up from pre-school over my lunch break.”
- “I want to live in (insert almost any city here) where I grew up and have roots, but there aren’t many good jobs.” Or the similar variation, “I want to live in (place that is very cheap or pretty or both)...”
- “My wife and I want to be able to visit both sides of our family that live far away, and the logistics would be a lot easier if I could work remotely for a week here and there to make that work, rather than need 3 extra weeks of vacation.”
The best thing about remote is that all that flexibility and freedom is just built into the job, and in my experience it’s easier to find a full-remote job than an office job with comparable flexibility. The downside is you don’t get the fun and energizing environment of working with neat, smart people in person, nor the work/life separation that many people find very helpful.
I think most people’s stated preference just reflects which one of those is more important to them in their present circumstances.