Is it a bad idea to move to San Francisco?
11 comments
Two decades in SF, moved here in my twenties and have moved a few times within the city and now have a family here.
Ideally you find a rent controlled apartment, which is the majority of older homes and apartments, built prior to 1979. It’ll be very expensive initially (assuming the landlord raises the rent upon move in as they do) but less so over time. My family has been in ours for 8 years now and it’s now cheaper for us to stay in SF on my solo salary than to move to most other major cities. We invest money into other asset classes and property outside of SF since we’ll likely never afford a home in SF proper nor would we want to own one, for multiple reasons.
We love it here, as a software dev I have LinkedIn opportunities knocking down my door, food, activists, weather all amazing imo. We might consider moving to a cheaper city at some point or if our kids end up in the lottery system of public schools.
Homelessness, crime and drug abuse hasn’t improved imo. You take the good with the bad.
Anecdotally I had a close friend leave SF for a year to travel and came back to SF last month after missing it. He stayed in an Airbnb in Bernal heights for a month and managed to find a shared rent control apartment in that time for a below market price. His trick was he accidentally emailed the wrong ad on Zillow that wasn’t listed under apartments for rent. And the home owner emailed him back saying he hadn’t considered renting the home but was interested, they met and he soon moved in.
So as a renter thinking outside the box can pay off. But in general with house hunting be persistent, be early, act fast, have credit reports, references and the biggest paystubs you can procure and network like crazy.
Also some companies will pay for relocation and/or have temporary housing, so maybe get an offer first then move out here.
Ideally you find a rent controlled apartment, which is the majority of older homes and apartments, built prior to 1979. It’ll be very expensive initially (assuming the landlord raises the rent upon move in as they do) but less so over time. My family has been in ours for 8 years now and it’s now cheaper for us to stay in SF on my solo salary than to move to most other major cities. We invest money into other asset classes and property outside of SF since we’ll likely never afford a home in SF proper nor would we want to own one, for multiple reasons.
We love it here, as a software dev I have LinkedIn opportunities knocking down my door, food, activists, weather all amazing imo. We might consider moving to a cheaper city at some point or if our kids end up in the lottery system of public schools.
Homelessness, crime and drug abuse hasn’t improved imo. You take the good with the bad.
Anecdotally I had a close friend leave SF for a year to travel and came back to SF last month after missing it. He stayed in an Airbnb in Bernal heights for a month and managed to find a shared rent control apartment in that time for a below market price. His trick was he accidentally emailed the wrong ad on Zillow that wasn’t listed under apartments for rent. And the home owner emailed him back saying he hadn’t considered renting the home but was interested, they met and he soon moved in.
So as a renter thinking outside the box can pay off. But in general with house hunting be persistent, be early, act fast, have credit reports, references and the biggest paystubs you can procure and network like crazy.
Also some companies will pay for relocation and/or have temporary housing, so maybe get an offer first then move out here.
Do you think this is repeatable with the housing market nowadays? My gut instinct is it's not, but love to hear your thoughts.
The key point in your post/experience seems to be the fact that 8 years ago you moved to a rent-controlled apartment in SF.
8 years ago (2011) was the lowest point of the housing market after the crash. If you, for example, bought a house in SF in 2011 instead of getting into that apartment (say if you saved up for several years for a down payment), that house would likely be worth 2x to 3x now and right now you may be able to sell it or rent it out and semi-retire in a different city.
The point is, 2010-2012 was a magical period if you made a move at the time (get into a rent-controlled apartment, bought a place, etc.). I have a feeling that the housing market isn't going to crash again the same way it did back then, so I'm not sure what you advocate is possible anymore.
As for the OP, personally if I were starting my tech career now, I would probably not move to SF. Plenty of other tech hubs are spinning up in the past few years (Austin, Boulder, etc.) where housing is more affordable and you still get to stay "in the scene". Admittedly I live in the bay area right now (I've been living here since high school, so kind of a native here), but am indeed planning to move away at some point.
The key point in your post/experience seems to be the fact that 8 years ago you moved to a rent-controlled apartment in SF.
8 years ago (2011) was the lowest point of the housing market after the crash. If you, for example, bought a house in SF in 2011 instead of getting into that apartment (say if you saved up for several years for a down payment), that house would likely be worth 2x to 3x now and right now you may be able to sell it or rent it out and semi-retire in a different city.
The point is, 2010-2012 was a magical period if you made a move at the time (get into a rent-controlled apartment, bought a place, etc.). I have a feeling that the housing market isn't going to crash again the same way it did back then, so I'm not sure what you advocate is possible anymore.
As for the OP, personally if I were starting my tech career now, I would probably not move to SF. Plenty of other tech hubs are spinning up in the past few years (Austin, Boulder, etc.) where housing is more affordable and you still get to stay "in the scene". Admittedly I live in the bay area right now (I've been living here since high school, so kind of a native here), but am indeed planning to move away at some point.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! Are studios in the city out of the question for an early career couple? Should we be looking at Oakland or outside the city?
I haven’t personally looked at studios outside of open houses I see in my hood, the ones I’ve seen are super tiny and very expensive. But I’d look at everything. Also be prepared to be turned down by competing renters that might be just some single rich person.
If you’re open to a roommate you’ll get more for your money and might find it easier to get established. We did that for 3 years before getting married then later took over the whole place. As long as you keep getting promoted/raises and your rent can only go up by 1-3% annually then eventually it’ll swing in your favor. We played the long game.
Also with roommates there are sometimes situations where you can find something rent controlled and below market rate when someone else is already living there but your much less likely to find that with studios or property management companies.
One downside is in the unlikely situation that you’re evicted (hard to do in most rent controlled houses) and your name isn’t on the check then you’re not protected or paid out to the same extent as the rent payer is.
Oakland will be cheaper and more space and is becoming fairly trendy. But then you have to commute and it’s a totally different vibe than SF. And I believe annual rent increases are allowed there. Home invasions are more rampant there too which freaks me the fuck out.
The Oakland commute isn’t too bad though imo, I’d probably choose commuting from oakland over north or South Bay if living in SF wasn’t an option.
I will say, all complaints aside if you can make it work SF is awesome. I love that I can be at the beach one day, skiing the next, tech and biotech world hubs. Museums and science academy, parks in every neighborhood. There’s a definite energy here. Not NY hustle but CA hustle. Just watch out for the poo on the sidewalks.
Edit: If you both end up working in/near soma and don’t mind living on an island then Alameda is pretty underrated imo. I have coworkers who bike and ride the ferry over. The downtown is cute and safer feeling than nearby Oakland, more family friendly.
Also treasure island just got approved for a ton of construction for the first time. But it might be a couple years out and probably expensive cause new homes.
If you’re open to a roommate you’ll get more for your money and might find it easier to get established. We did that for 3 years before getting married then later took over the whole place. As long as you keep getting promoted/raises and your rent can only go up by 1-3% annually then eventually it’ll swing in your favor. We played the long game.
Also with roommates there are sometimes situations where you can find something rent controlled and below market rate when someone else is already living there but your much less likely to find that with studios or property management companies.
One downside is in the unlikely situation that you’re evicted (hard to do in most rent controlled houses) and your name isn’t on the check then you’re not protected or paid out to the same extent as the rent payer is.
Oakland will be cheaper and more space and is becoming fairly trendy. But then you have to commute and it’s a totally different vibe than SF. And I believe annual rent increases are allowed there. Home invasions are more rampant there too which freaks me the fuck out.
The Oakland commute isn’t too bad though imo, I’d probably choose commuting from oakland over north or South Bay if living in SF wasn’t an option.
I will say, all complaints aside if you can make it work SF is awesome. I love that I can be at the beach one day, skiing the next, tech and biotech world hubs. Museums and science academy, parks in every neighborhood. There’s a definite energy here. Not NY hustle but CA hustle. Just watch out for the poo on the sidewalks.
Edit: If you both end up working in/near soma and don’t mind living on an island then Alameda is pretty underrated imo. I have coworkers who bike and ride the ferry over. The downtown is cute and safer feeling than nearby Oakland, more family friendly.
Also treasure island just got approved for a ton of construction for the first time. But it might be a couple years out and probably expensive cause new homes.
I came to SF from Denver for a month to work, now I'm skipping my plane ride home.
This city is magical! I'm way happier, energetic, and alive.
This city is magical! I'm way happier, energetic, and alive.
Four decades Bay Area native here. Yes, unless the salary more than makes up for the extremely-unbalanced cost of living. Housing and everything in SF is obscenely expensive. It's been this way for many years, but still people try to migrate there like lemmings because "everyone else is doing it," only to later realize either they're stuck and can never retire except into poverty OR are forced to leave and find somewhere else more suitable for saving money, raising a family and/or maintaining one's sanity. Don't move there lightly without a definite plan and budget, or you may likely find yourself either wasting time and money, or in ruins.
Depends on what you want. You can make it work. If you eventually want a house, family etc... then you may have to leave.. depends on the IPO lottery etc... and what happens in the next 10 years due to the housing crisis. But there are tech jobs everywhere these days. There are also plenty of "midsize" companies where you can transition to a work remote job as well after a few years if you do find the Bay area out of reach.
Just chiming in on a small request, any chance I can hit you up for a 15 to 20 min customer dev interview? [email protected], trying to talk to eng/dev looking for jobs and how they filter down a list of companies. Would be much appreciated and happy to share about my time in SF too (although it was 4 years ago).
I work in the valley, not SF, but still the same. Sorry if this sounds bleak, but out of 45 engineers in my workplace none has been able to buy a place. You'd need probably a 300k/year salary and above to buy anything in SF, or hit it big in your company stocks. The options are a longer commute, you decide how much. Rent is extremely high in the area also
I'm well aware of the neverending housing crisis and social problems there. It scares me, but the work and compensation is enticing.
Should I stay away? What salary is needed for a reasonable quality of life there? Are you happy there? What expectations should I have?