The Tipping System Is Immoral(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
The Tipping System Is Immoral
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/opinion/tipping.html
20 comments
> Just tell me what you think is a fair price and I'll decide whether or not I want to buy it. Don't undercut the price by 25% and then be offended when I don't pay the right amount.
The issue here is that you're not taking money out of the merchant's pockets, your price is either being (effectively) subsidized by either other patrons of the restaurant (assuming the total tips are low enough to trigger minimum wage repayment by the owner) or your meal is subsidized by the servers which, often, are very junior works or generally disadvantaged in terms of employee rights.
If you're cool with that then that's all fine, but the person being undercut is simply not the person who is setting the price.
The issue here is that you're not taking money out of the merchant's pockets, your price is either being (effectively) subsidized by either other patrons of the restaurant (assuming the total tips are low enough to trigger minimum wage repayment by the owner) or your meal is subsidized by the servers which, often, are very junior works or generally disadvantaged in terms of employee rights.
If you're cool with that then that's all fine, but the person being undercut is simply not the person who is setting the price.
I mainly avoid the issue by just not going to places that expect you to tip.
So you never eat out, ride a cab/rideshare, drink coffee or alcohol while out, cut your hair, etc?
I find that hard to believe.
I find that hard to believe.
I eat out at a sit down restaurant maybe once every two months.
Have never ridden in a cab.
Drink coffee, but don't feel that the ability to pull the spigot on a coffee urn warrants a tip.
Don't drink alcohol.
Wife cuts my hair about once every six months.
Have never ridden in a cab.
Drink coffee, but don't feel that the ability to pull the spigot on a coffee urn warrants a tip.
Don't drink alcohol.
Wife cuts my hair about once every six months.
The problem with that is that the people benefiting from the tips don't have a say in it. Of course the owner of a restaurant will undercut his product significantly because he's legally allowed not to pay for labor fairly, what can the worker do?
> what can the worker do?
I used to work for tips. I quit that job when I found a better one. It feels like I had a say in that, and lots of choices.
I used to work for tips. I quit that job when I found a better one. It feels like I had a say in that, and lots of choices.
Would it be reasonable to say that most or all servers could quit their jobs and find new ones in better fields - or that a significant enough proportion could do this to pressure real change in terms of compensation?
Well, in some situations ... not all situations, but some situations ... your statement actually ends up explaining how good a service job is.
If it is hard to find work in a “better field” that could be because there are few options.
Or it could be because the service job is much better than could be expected based on skill set, education level, etc.
In NYC most (not all) people who work as a waiter could get a job as a plumber’s apprentice.
This statement isn’t random. I know at least one plumber who regularly asks me if I know anyone who wants work, I’ve discussed their needs in an entry level employee, and as far as I can tell the only problem versus a food service job is being asked to wake up early and work a consistent 40 hour work week.
So if someone chooses to be a bartender instead, is it because their options “suck” or is it because bar tending is a pretty good gig?
If it is hard to find work in a “better field” that could be because there are few options.
Or it could be because the service job is much better than could be expected based on skill set, education level, etc.
In NYC most (not all) people who work as a waiter could get a job as a plumber’s apprentice.
This statement isn’t random. I know at least one plumber who regularly asks me if I know anyone who wants work, I’ve discussed their needs in an entry level employee, and as far as I can tell the only problem versus a food service job is being asked to wake up early and work a consistent 40 hour work week.
So if someone chooses to be a bartender instead, is it because their options “suck” or is it because bar tending is a pretty good gig?
Why in better fields? When I was 15 I quit a burger joint to work at a burrito joint for like a $.50/hour raise. I flipped jobs often at that age and my coworkers and friends did the same. More than once -- including my highest paid job as a teen -- I quit because the boss was an asshole. Everything paid over the minimum wage is the result of the negotiating power of employees. In a service business, where tips are found, the quality of those employees is critical to the bottom line. That translates into leverage for friendly, productive employees, who can often walk out and get a new job before you can calculate their final paycheck.
I hate tipping and I tip. However, I disagree with the idea that we should be scaling up our tips.
Single persons who refuse to tip because it is a terrible system are often just being asses and cheap, when they aren't I don't disagree with them but I think it's more productive to direct energy toward reforming labour laws to get rid of server/etc minimum wage exemptions.
But! I strongly object to this article advising a 30-50% tip, it has the potential to cause people to scale their tips up which will further deepen the hole that we're in if it becomes adopted by a significant population.
Single persons who refuse to tip because it is a terrible system are often just being asses and cheap, when they aren't I don't disagree with them but I think it's more productive to direct energy toward reforming labour laws to get rid of server/etc minimum wage exemptions.
But! I strongly object to this article advising a 30-50% tip, it has the potential to cause people to scale their tips up which will further deepen the hole that we're in if it becomes adopted by a significant population.
How did the US custom of tipping come to exist in the first place? I live in a country where tipping is practically nonexistent, and I think I would feel severely uncomfortable with prices that don't actually correspond to what I'm expected to pay, even if the mental arithmetic is easy.
I hear that tipping in the US is necessary because of low wages, but I can't help feeling like it's dishonest business to shift the responsibility of compensation from the employer directly to the customers.
I hear that tipping in the US is necessary because of low wages, but I can't help feeling like it's dishonest business to shift the responsibility of compensation from the employer directly to the customers.
Tipping came about during the great depression where restaurant owners lobbied to have the statutory wages of servers reduced to (by their expression) allow them to continue to employ them. It's weird because instead of taking the same approach taken elsewhere with the WPA to subsidize existing positions or nationalize some entities within that market segment.
The tipping system in practice artificially inflates the wages of service staff so I've never really understood the outrage around it. It's true that tipping drives away customers but that's because it artificially inflates the wages of service staff. It's still a net benefit to the service staff. It maybe is a negative to the restaurateurs and back of house but certainly not the service staff.
The article portrays tipping as sexist but the institution acts as a mechanism to redistribute wealth from men to women. It's true that white women, young women, and attractive women get tipped more and they will put up with mistreatment to get tipped more but it ultimately smacks of attacking a system for being imperfect more than because it's bad. The alternative model you see at fast food restaurants is hardly less demeaning for women and definitely less profitable. If one ever succeeded in stripping away tipping it would only serve to keep more money in men's pockets in an attempt to end the sexism of tipping.
I also strongly, STRONGLY dispute the idea that leaving 30-50 percent tips is the best way to redistribute wealth if charitably inclined. It seems more like a notion to make newspaper columnists seem woke and generous than something that actually is an efficient way to do good. The advantage to tipping is the social stigma essentially forces people to compensate service staff better than they normally would but you're never realistically going to pressure people into paying 50% or even 30% regularly.
On the more positive side I do agree with the authors notion that the racial bias in tipping is rather extreme and unjustified. A third smaller tips for black drivers is pretty hard to justify and simply being aware that it happens is good knowledge.
The article portrays tipping as sexist but the institution acts as a mechanism to redistribute wealth from men to women. It's true that white women, young women, and attractive women get tipped more and they will put up with mistreatment to get tipped more but it ultimately smacks of attacking a system for being imperfect more than because it's bad. The alternative model you see at fast food restaurants is hardly less demeaning for women and definitely less profitable. If one ever succeeded in stripping away tipping it would only serve to keep more money in men's pockets in an attempt to end the sexism of tipping.
I also strongly, STRONGLY dispute the idea that leaving 30-50 percent tips is the best way to redistribute wealth if charitably inclined. It seems more like a notion to make newspaper columnists seem woke and generous than something that actually is an efficient way to do good. The advantage to tipping is the social stigma essentially forces people to compensate service staff better than they normally would but you're never realistically going to pressure people into paying 50% or even 30% regularly.
On the more positive side I do agree with the authors notion that the racial bias in tipping is rather extreme and unjustified. A third smaller tips for black drivers is pretty hard to justify and simply being aware that it happens is good knowledge.
30%?
I can’t read the article because it is behind a paywall so maybe that is ironic.
30% is beyond excessive in most situations.
In NYC, which I think is one of the biggest loci of tip inflation, we used to do 15% pre-tax on a restaurant bill.
We used to do $1 every one or two drinks at the bar, but inflation has an upward pressure there, and the slow demise of buybacks has a downward pressure.
20% AFTER tax is what I usually leave on smaller checks, rounded down, and that is considered pretty generous by any person I’ve ever come across.
Big debates might occur about that $400 bottle of wine (“I’m not tipping $80 for someone to open a bottle.” — “ok buddy, if you can’t afford the tip don’t order it.” Blah blah blah) but these are edge cases. And overall arguing about tips is annoying and a huge waste of time, energy, and good will.
But 30%?
Give me a break.
We even have new minimum wage laws in New York that protect food delivery workers, the whole thing is Byzantine, but I’m pretty confident everyone is getting paid.
Edit: ok I bypassed the paywall and sure, tipping a higher percentage makes sense when your bill is tiny. I think basically everyone knows that.
But the rest of the article is absolute nonsense in every way, including random counter factual statements such as “people from the Midwest tip more” which no one I know actually thinks is true, and I don’t think it so strongly, it would take a lot more than one random study to make me reconsider.
I can’t read the article because it is behind a paywall so maybe that is ironic.
30% is beyond excessive in most situations.
In NYC, which I think is one of the biggest loci of tip inflation, we used to do 15% pre-tax on a restaurant bill.
We used to do $1 every one or two drinks at the bar, but inflation has an upward pressure there, and the slow demise of buybacks has a downward pressure.
20% AFTER tax is what I usually leave on smaller checks, rounded down, and that is considered pretty generous by any person I’ve ever come across.
Big debates might occur about that $400 bottle of wine (“I’m not tipping $80 for someone to open a bottle.” — “ok buddy, if you can’t afford the tip don’t order it.” Blah blah blah) but these are edge cases. And overall arguing about tips is annoying and a huge waste of time, energy, and good will.
But 30%?
Give me a break.
We even have new minimum wage laws in New York that protect food delivery workers, the whole thing is Byzantine, but I’m pretty confident everyone is getting paid.
Edit: ok I bypassed the paywall and sure, tipping a higher percentage makes sense when your bill is tiny. I think basically everyone knows that.
But the rest of the article is absolute nonsense in every way, including random counter factual statements such as “people from the Midwest tip more” which no one I know actually thinks is true, and I don’t think it so strongly, it would take a lot more than one random study to make me reconsider.
Tip more than 20%: good server or small bill for sit down meal
Tip 15%: mediocre service at sit down meal
Tip less than 15%: bartender, order at counter meal
Tip 15%: mediocre service at sit down meal
Tip less than 15%: bartender, order at counter meal
Paywall bypass: http://archive.is/oyimo
Don't know where this guy goes out, but apparently too rich for my blood.
I dislike tipping because it's part of the "guilt" economy.
Just tell me what you think is a fair price and I'll decide whether or not I want to buy it. Don't undercut the price by 25% and then be offended when I don't pay the right amount.