Electric shocks to the tongue can quiet chronic ringing ears(sciencemag.org)
sciencemag.org
Electric shocks to the tongue can quiet chronic ringing ears
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/electric-shocks-tongue-can-quiet-chronic-ringing-ears
127 comments
They cancel the noise by interference, generating sound that’s 180 degrees out of phase with the incoming sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control)
My guess would be not that the tinnitus gets worse from wearing noise canceling headphones, but that your ears adapt to the lower average sound levels, making them better at ‘detecting’ the tinnitus sound (the dynamic range of your ears adapts to average sound volume https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774902/, but whether that affects the perceived volume of tinnitus isn’t clear to me)
My guess would be not that the tinnitus gets worse from wearing noise canceling headphones, but that your ears adapt to the lower average sound levels, making them better at ‘detecting’ the tinnitus sound (the dynamic range of your ears adapts to average sound volume https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774902/, but whether that affects the perceived volume of tinnitus isn’t clear to me)
I've had quite the opposite experience with noise-cancelling. My tinnitus has actually improved.
As a child, I noticed a high-pitched sound during a particularly windy night in Wisconsin. Over the next few days it got louder and louder to the point it was quite frightening. Obviously, I had tinnitus, but unfortunately lacked the words to describe it to my parents (or they just wanted me to go to sleep haha).
Eventually I figured out that it was a cycle. The more I focused on the sound, the louder it got. As I worked to focus on on other things, it gradually subsided over a few days.
Now, as an adult, it is with me all the time. It gets much louder some days. This can be caused by a bad night of sleep. Or random things I can't figure out. Doctors have variously mentioned salt, tomatoes, trying antihistamines, etc.
But one thing I know makes it worse is noise - especially higher frequencies. As a result, I really dislike many of the newer (pre-covid) restaurants with the hard surfaces and tinny speakers playing harsh music all the time.
My kids got me iPod Pro's for Christmas and it has been wonderful. We went to NYC and by wearing them, I was able to enjoy loud restaurants, deal with the subway, etc.
I also notice that by wearing them for even a few hours, my tinnitus is often significantly improved. My theory is that it improved by decreasing the amount of stimulation.
For those who experienced the opposite, I wonder the quiet they experience allows them to hear the tinnitus clearly for the first time? Then they begin to focus on it which increases it's apparent volume as I did when I was young.
As a child, I noticed a high-pitched sound during a particularly windy night in Wisconsin. Over the next few days it got louder and louder to the point it was quite frightening. Obviously, I had tinnitus, but unfortunately lacked the words to describe it to my parents (or they just wanted me to go to sleep haha).
Eventually I figured out that it was a cycle. The more I focused on the sound, the louder it got. As I worked to focus on on other things, it gradually subsided over a few days.
Now, as an adult, it is with me all the time. It gets much louder some days. This can be caused by a bad night of sleep. Or random things I can't figure out. Doctors have variously mentioned salt, tomatoes, trying antihistamines, etc.
But one thing I know makes it worse is noise - especially higher frequencies. As a result, I really dislike many of the newer (pre-covid) restaurants with the hard surfaces and tinny speakers playing harsh music all the time.
My kids got me iPod Pro's for Christmas and it has been wonderful. We went to NYC and by wearing them, I was able to enjoy loud restaurants, deal with the subway, etc.
I also notice that by wearing them for even a few hours, my tinnitus is often significantly improved. My theory is that it improved by decreasing the amount of stimulation.
For those who experienced the opposite, I wonder the quiet they experience allows them to hear the tinnitus clearly for the first time? Then they begin to focus on it which increases it's apparent volume as I did when I was young.
> but whether that affects the perceived volume of tinnitus isn’t clear to me
My understanding is that varies by person and "type" of tinnitus, but I know my tinnitus is often an inverse relationship with how quiet a room I am in (though it is a slow, dynamic adjustment) and sometimes a white noise generator is helpful to turn the tinnitus volume down a bit. Noise cancelling headphones can certainly create relatively "quiet rooms" that turn up the "tinnitus volume" for me (and part of why I generally prefer headphones without noise cancelling, personally).
My understanding is that varies by person and "type" of tinnitus, but I know my tinnitus is often an inverse relationship with how quiet a room I am in (though it is a slow, dynamic adjustment) and sometimes a white noise generator is helpful to turn the tinnitus volume down a bit. Noise cancelling headphones can certainly create relatively "quiet rooms" that turn up the "tinnitus volume" for me (and part of why I generally prefer headphones without noise cancelling, personally).
I have the same. The interference should mean that there's less acoustic energy, but since the anti-sound wave won't always be a perfect match with the wave being cancelled I suspect the result is that there will be soft beats[0] of very high and/or low frequency that may still stimulate the ear in a way to trigger tinnitus. The first time I put on my noise-cancelling headphones it made me dizzy - that is also likely caused by low-frequency beats.
Anyway, I just lowered the volume, that seemed to help quite a bit. I don't need the higher volume anyway now that the surrounding noises are cancelled.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)
Anyway, I just lowered the volume, that seemed to help quite a bit. I don't need the higher volume anyway now that the surrounding noises are cancelled.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)
I don't know what is happening, but you could try a few experiments:
- Use them with NC on, but no meetings/music. That would show if your problem is not the 'normal' volume.
- Use them with NC off. No ringing would point directly to the NC.
- Use them full off. Maybe somehow its the pressure on your head.
I’ve noticed exactly the same thing. I also use QC35s but I assume the brand and model is just a coincidence - that the noise cancelling tech itself is the culprit. I don’t have any evidence one way or another for this but very interested to read that others out there are having a similar experience.
Ideally the peaks of the natural sound and the "injected anti-sound" are opposite in their relative pressure to the environment, so that they cancel out.
Maybe some almost inaudible frequency spectra, and in a lesser degree also audible frequencies, sometimes aren't phase-matched by the injected anti-sound, so that their peaks add up, creating an unnatural loud sound, which for some reason isn't perceived as harmful.
These short out-of-sync peaks could be causing the tinnitus?
Maybe some almost inaudible frequency spectra, and in a lesser degree also audible frequencies, sometimes aren't phase-matched by the injected anti-sound, so that their peaks add up, creating an unnatural loud sound, which for some reason isn't perceived as harmful.
These short out-of-sync peaks could be causing the tinnitus?
(Anecdote time.)
I got myself Airpods Pro last autumn and used the transparent mode. After a few weeks my tinnitus had become way worse. After 3-4 months it had died down a bit (but not to what it used to be before the pods.)
I then used them again for a couple of days. And it became even worse. Haven't used them for 6 months and unfortunately it is still as bad.
I don't dare using them or my Bose headphones anymore. Your comment is the first I've seen relating noise cancelling with tinnitus.
I got myself Airpods Pro last autumn and used the transparent mode. After a few weeks my tinnitus had become way worse. After 3-4 months it had died down a bit (but not to what it used to be before the pods.)
I then used them again for a couple of days. And it became even worse. Haven't used them for 6 months and unfortunately it is still as bad.
I don't dare using them or my Bose headphones anymore. Your comment is the first I've seen relating noise cancelling with tinnitus.
You mentioned using transparent mode. It's not real transparency: there's a mic on the back/top whose input is added to the other signal coming from Bluetooth. I personally find this mode annoying af.
Have you attempted noise cancelling mode?
Have you attempted turning off the noise control altogether?
Have you attempted noise cancelling mode?
Have you attempted turning off the noise control altogether?
The way I understand the physics, it doesn't add to the amplitude ("energy level") of the waves, the whole point is to send out sound waves that works against the sound that's there already, making the total amount of kinetic energy that comes into your ear less.
Maybe it's an issue with lack of "natural" sound causing you to turn up the volume more, or something like that?
Maybe it's an issue with lack of "natural" sound causing you to turn up the volume more, or something like that?
Same problem with QC15 here, to the point that I can’t use them anymore. I had to use them in our open office to get anything done but the ringing in my ears got pretty bad. Working from home and not listening to music has helped a bit.
First time when I put the noise cancelling headphones and turned on the cancellation, I could immediately feel a pressure of sort on my ears even though it is reducing noise.
They definitely cancel noise by 'anti-noise'.
They definitely cancel noise by 'anti-noise'.
anecdotal, but me too. purchased bose qc35s 3 months ago and started having tinnitus most nights for about a month now. never suffered from tinnitus before.
I’ve had tinnitus since I was a child and can’t stand using noise-cancelling headphones due to this
I used to use ear plugs while programming. Having almost complete silence helped so much with concentration.
Now my tinnitus is so bad that it drives me nuts to use ear plugs, I need a constant wall of noise around me.
Now my tinnitus is so bad that it drives me nuts to use ear plugs, I need a constant wall of noise around me.
I find earplugs help me sleep better by not having external noise distract me, and hearing only the tinnitus. By not viewing tinnitus as a threat and facing it helps massively.
damn. This made me realise my tinnitus started around the time I got my qc35s...
The Neuromodulator[1] on MyNoise definitely helps soothe mine - but if I just need to shock my tongue as well for an hour to get a year's relief ... sign me up.
[1] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenera...
[1] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenera...
I have it intermittently, back of the head drumming resolves it for me for a few hours at least until it goes away on its own for me.
Interesting. The "neural hack" sound sound they mention there is quite similar to what you get using the "tonal tinnitus therapy " android app.
There is some research that playing sounds "near" the frequency of your tinnitus stimulates the ear system and helps reduce the tinnitus.
That app produces pulsating sounds around your tinnitus frequencies.
It's the only thing that had helped mine.
There is some research that playing sounds "near" the frequency of your tinnitus stimulates the ear system and helps reduce the tinnitus.
That app produces pulsating sounds around your tinnitus frequencies.
It's the only thing that had helped mine.
I use one of those android apps. The crickets, fire, water settings usually hit my spot. After 30 minutes the single tone has dissolved and I get a fainter dual oscillator tinnitus. I practice finding quieter tones deeper in the sound field. This weakens the primary tones.
Tinnitus is a mental process, but you can't work with it using thought or direct attention. It requires shifting lower more subtle processes. It's a form of meditation
Tinnitus is a mental process, but you can't work with it using thought or direct attention. It requires shifting lower more subtle processes. It's a form of meditation
Yeah, supposedly playing your normal music with a notch at your tinnitus frequency can also help. Alas, I have yet to figure out what frequency it is - tried several apps and I just can't pin it down (although to be fair, that's me rather than the apps, I have an abysmal sense of pitch.)
If your tinnitus changes timbre when you stress your skull, such as clenching your jaw, it means the ringing is actually physical sound being generated by ringing hair cells in your ears: a sensitive microphone could pick up the sound. By my reading of TFA, that kind of tinnitus is not relieved by this method.
Mine changes both tone and intensity only when I strain my abdomen (as you usually do in a bathroom). What does that mean? Does it depend on a blood pressure? But my bp is pretty normal and lowering it would harm other things, I guess.
I also found out that tinnitus gets worse if I'm listening to it, and almost disappears when I quit giving a fuck about it. Also, if you have one, and you are subject to nervousness do not try that fingers-on-the-nape trick. It will disappear and then may return back two-three times worse for some time. Strangely, I have severe one, but don't care much.
Also, it intesifies in threads like this one, probably because I'm actively thinking about it.
I also found out that tinnitus gets worse if I'm listening to it, and almost disappears when I quit giving a fuck about it. Also, if you have one, and you are subject to nervousness do not try that fingers-on-the-nape trick. It will disappear and then may return back two-three times worse for some time. Strangely, I have severe one, but don't care much.
Also, it intesifies in threads like this one, probably because I'm actively thinking about it.
Do you have a source for that? I understand that there _are_ situations where your hair cells can actually start to ring noticeably (due to biofeedback mechanisms going haywire), and I've noticed that type of ring - an extremely loud, piercing sound in one ear that drowns everything out for a few minutes before going away - but I've understood that to be different than normal tinnitus, even though mine definitely responds to jaw clenching.
Do you have more information on this, links etc?
Interesting, now I know what causes my tinitus
That’s the one kind of tinnitus that actually has the possibility of being cured, if I recall correctly (via some procedure).
Unfortunately, no control group. So they don't know if it was a placebo effect and/or some other factor...
If I could get a prescription for some quality placebos, then I'd be on board as long as I get relief.
I just sent you some, they were administered wirelessly, you're welcome.
I'm curious how one would even do control for this. The whole point of this treatment is to deliver sensations. How would you pretend delivering sensations in a way that can't be easily told from actual sensations?
You could pick something like shocking the fingertips. A sensation, but not one expected to quiet the chronic ringing.
It might be a little much, but maybe you could numb the area? (although this might eliminate the effect...) or maybe use something like laughing gas to put the patient semi-out (you probably wouldn't want general anesthesia, since that's risky)?
On the flip side even if it's a placebo and it helps people cope, is that necessarily a bad thing?
Not saying this is the same, but often medical practices cannot be tested this way. Would it be ethical to perform surgeries on a bunch of people, but not actually do the surgery on a portion of them?
I wish more work was happening in this sphere. I know I would easily pay $50k+ for even a 50/50 chance to cure my tinnitus. Its a horrible feeling to never be able to quiet your mind.
I'd pay that much if it was guaranteed to cure it forever (minus any new injury that could occur). Been having it since I was 24 with a massive ear infection, it's been hell some days.
Sorry about this. It is really shitty. Like you, I got a case of tinnitus via ear infection. In my case it was caused by a three-week-long infection.
However, I count myself massively lucky that it did slowly resolve over about 5 years, to the point where I’d now consider it nearly gone.
I know it’s easy to lose hope, and get really frustrated by it, but I hope you have good days coming to you. Good luck.
However, I count myself massively lucky that it did slowly resolve over about 5 years, to the point where I’d now consider it nearly gone.
I know it’s easy to lose hope, and get really frustrated by it, but I hope you have good days coming to you. Good luck.
Mine also lasted multiple weeks, due to doctors not taking me seriously with how bad the pain was (even though I showed up at the ER @ 4 in the morning due to waking up from intense pain), and having seen three doctors, including one ENT, getting told it's a virus, bacteria, or fungus. Maybe I'll be as lucky as you and in 2 years it'll be all gone :)
The article mentions that talk therapy is already an accepted treatment. Not guaranteed to help, of course, but probably that means you could get access to it (for a lot less than $50k, I would hope). So, worth looking into if anyone near you has done this for tinnitus.
Talk therapy? As in, tinnitus is psychosomatic and you can persuade yourself out of hearing it? O.o
Psychosomatic doesn't quite mean that. The symptoms are real and physical, but the origination is in the mind somehow, maybe through stress or a learned behavior. Solve the stress or mental conflict -> seemingly unrelated symptoms stop.
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It would help to reduce your response to tinnitus. Most of us are able to "tune out" constant environmental noise; the same can be done with tinnitus.
I can tell you first hand that while you can indeed become somewhat... used to that constant ringing sound (1), it isn't exactly "tuning out" like with typical environmental noise (street sounds, wind or rain).
Here's what it's like.
Imagine someone is standing right behind you with a little whiteboard and scratches the chalk on it. It makes this high pitched sound you cringe at, right?.
Someone is doing that slowly, and the chalk is tiny, so the sound is not super loud, and can be covered by music, people talking etc.
But that person keeps scratching all the time. A little bit. Every second of every minute, of every quiet moment at home, in the mountains, in your electric supposedly-quiet car, of your every mindfulness meditation practice. For years.
So can you "tune out"? Maybe if you dull your senses and have laser focused attention for most of the day. But it keeps coming back. And again, and again. It can be confusing, annoying, funny, or just be there. Your reactions vary, as you learn to adjust to it (if you try to).
But "tune out" suggests once it's done, it's gone.
This is never gone, it's the opposite of gone - it's there even if I stop breathing!
(1) Actual nature of the sound varies between people.
Here's what it's like.
Imagine someone is standing right behind you with a little whiteboard and scratches the chalk on it. It makes this high pitched sound you cringe at, right?.
Someone is doing that slowly, and the chalk is tiny, so the sound is not super loud, and can be covered by music, people talking etc.
But that person keeps scratching all the time. A little bit. Every second of every minute, of every quiet moment at home, in the mountains, in your electric supposedly-quiet car, of your every mindfulness meditation practice. For years.
So can you "tune out"? Maybe if you dull your senses and have laser focused attention for most of the day. But it keeps coming back. And again, and again. It can be confusing, annoying, funny, or just be there. Your reactions vary, as you learn to adjust to it (if you try to).
But "tune out" suggests once it's done, it's gone.
This is never gone, it's the opposite of gone - it's there even if I stop breathing!
(1) Actual nature of the sound varies between people.
I find I "tune out" because I'm concentrating on something else.
Same way I stop noticing sometimes that someone is trying to talk to me, or that I have a deadline that's drifting past, or that I haven't eaten or moved from my chair all day.
The sound doesn't go away, but I stop noticing.
I'll start noticing again if I'm trying to listen to something quiet, and realise the tinnitus is louder and slightly masking what I'm trying to hear.
Or any time I pay attention to what I can hear in the background.
I don't tend to notice the tinnitus if music is playing, or I'm talking with someone.
I agree with you that it's never gone. Though I've noticed the volume varies a lot. From quiet like the background sounds from outside where I live on a quiet day, or even quieter than the sound of breathing and my heart beating, to as loud as someone talking to me. The tones vary too. Fortunately they are usually higher frequency than what I'm listening too which reduces masking.
I've had tinnitus since I was a child, so I doubt it's due to age-related hearing loss. I don't know a cause, but back then I noticed it was louder when I was ill and stuck in bed, and actually I found it comforting then, like it sounded like my body processing as it should.
Same way I stop noticing sometimes that someone is trying to talk to me, or that I have a deadline that's drifting past, or that I haven't eaten or moved from my chair all day.
The sound doesn't go away, but I stop noticing.
I'll start noticing again if I'm trying to listen to something quiet, and realise the tinnitus is louder and slightly masking what I'm trying to hear.
Or any time I pay attention to what I can hear in the background.
I don't tend to notice the tinnitus if music is playing, or I'm talking with someone.
I agree with you that it's never gone. Though I've noticed the volume varies a lot. From quiet like the background sounds from outside where I live on a quiet day, or even quieter than the sound of breathing and my heart beating, to as loud as someone talking to me. The tones vary too. Fortunately they are usually higher frequency than what I'm listening too which reduces masking.
I've had tinnitus since I was a child, so I doubt it's due to age-related hearing loss. I don't know a cause, but back then I noticed it was louder when I was ill and stuck in bed, and actually I found it comforting then, like it sounded like my body processing as it should.
Maybe re-program your brain to desensitize it to whatever the source is.
I think in practice it's basically helping you come to accepting you have tinnitus because they can't do shit all about it, or understand why it happens in a bunch of cases.
There's a neural theory of tinnitus, that says you hear it because your brain is compensating for lack of signal at some frequencies.
Like the amplifiers are turned up to max at some frequencies, and the neural net maybe even adds an interpolated perception.
If that theory has anything to it, it makes sense that it might be possible to train your brain to reduce the effect.
That's not just "accepting", but it might be difficult to perceive a difference if "accepting" results in "not noticing as much", and "not noticing as much" is indistinguishable from "turning down my brain's perception gain for these signals".
Like the amplifiers are turned up to max at some frequencies, and the neural net maybe even adds an interpolated perception.
If that theory has anything to it, it makes sense that it might be possible to train your brain to reduce the effect.
That's not just "accepting", but it might be difficult to perceive a difference if "accepting" results in "not noticing as much", and "not noticing as much" is indistinguishable from "turning down my brain's perception gain for these signals".
I dunno how many years in you are (I'm almost 10) but if it's any consolation, you do get used to it. If your particular tinnitus aetiology is sensorineural hearing loss as it is with most, cutting edge research suggests that stem cell based therapies will eventually be able to fix this problem.
I'm ready to diy this study for an attempt to turn this constant ringing off.
I found that mine seems to be mechanical. If I drink out of a water bottle with a straw, it is typically worse the next day. Also, if I drink alcohol, it makes me clench my jaw and my tinnitus is bad the next day.
Large doses of antioxidants can improve tinnitus
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950042/
You can send me that $50k now
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950042/
You can send me that $50k now
The antioxidant group received one multivitamin-multimineral tablet once a day with their meal and one tablet of alpha-lipoic acid twice a day on an empty stomachMay not work for you but this - does give me a few minutes of relief. I’ve heard that if you do it regularly it can help. - https://lifehacker.com/this-weird-trick-might-give-you-brief...
wow, dramatic difference, thank you for bringing this tool to my attention.
My tinnitus was caused by my blood pressure. Had a heart attack a couple of years ago, they inserted a stent and I drastically modified my bad habits (diet, exercise, all that), and the constant ringing in my ears vanished.
BP now hovers around 100 / 60, resting heart rate in the 70's, and I rarely experience tinnitus any more.
BP now hovers around 100 / 60, resting heart rate in the 70's, and I rarely experience tinnitus any more.
I got tinnitus due to some health problems caused by bad diet. Got 100% off sugars, alcohol, bread, milk products for 3 months, and most of my health problems went away.
I got to warn you, stopping sugar consumption cold turkey is not easy and not nice. That stuff is like (what I imagine) crack. First two weeks were awful.
I got to warn you, stopping sugar consumption cold turkey is not easy and not nice. That stuff is like (what I imagine) crack. First two weeks were awful.
> I got to warn you, stopping sugar consumption cold turkey is not easy and not nice.
Just for another data point, when I moved to the US I did not like the taste of processed sugars in a lot of the standard supermarket food here and found it pretty trivial to give it up.
Just for another data point, when I moved to the US I did not like the taste of processed sugars in a lot of the standard supermarket food here and found it pretty trivial to give it up.
I found that replacing sugar with a Keto or Paleo (or both) diet and daily green tea, then those diets + green tea's appetite suppressant satiated me enough that I never had any sugar cravings and was able to wean myself off it relatively painlessly.
It is called keto flu, iirc. As they say, your body undergoes a metabolic transformation (it knows how to do it from evolution/genes) when you miss carbs and sugar for a while. When I found out, it was so cool that our body can just reconfigure itself for a completely different diet. That is, if it is true, of course, because the entire keto-thing seems to be surrounded by some fog and doubt, for some reason.
I've had pretty severe tinnitus since my 20s (early 40s now), during my early 30s I got very serious about diet/health due to unrelated health issues. I only drink water or coffee, I eat a clean diet with almost no processed sugars and minimal meat, etc etc.
My tinnitus is still absolutely horrible, almost always there in some fashion, strong nearly every night, and drives me to near-insanity half a dozen times a month.
Just for another perspective.
My tinnitus is still absolutely horrible, almost always there in some fashion, strong nearly every night, and drives me to near-insanity half a dozen times a month.
Just for another perspective.
Agreed, tinnitus can have many causes. Myself, I played drums for a while without ear protection, and viola.
I don’t think this treatment would help me. My understanding is there are little hairs that pick up sound waves, and excessive noise can destroy those, and you don’t get them back. The brain fills in with the ringing noise. But I don’t see how the stimulation would reset that process.
I don’t think this treatment would help me. My understanding is there are little hairs that pick up sound waves, and excessive noise can destroy those, and you don’t get them back. The brain fills in with the ringing noise. But I don’t see how the stimulation would reset that process.
Sometimes, you don't even need a reason. I have had a constant high pitched tinnitus since my late 20s and it just started without any reasons I can think of for I think I have never actually abused my ears much...
What I've noticed is that the level at which I perceive it is completely linked with my anxiety level. I always ear it but when I'm tired or anxious, it's loud while when I'm really relaxed, it can become very faint.
Unfortunately, I must be a pretty anxious person as it's loud most of the time.
What I've noticed is that the level at which I perceive it is completely linked with my anxiety level. I always ear it but when I'm tired or anxious, it's loud while when I'm really relaxed, it can become very faint.
Unfortunately, I must be a pretty anxious person as it's loud most of the time.
> I played drums for a while without ear protection, and viola.
Ear protection is of course a requirement when playing a drum kit, which is very loud. But when playing viola?
Ear protection is of course a requirement when playing a drum kit, which is very loud. But when playing viola?
Not sure if you’re compounding on the typo and making a joke, but op meant voilà.
No doubt violin and viola can cause hearing damage too, it doesn't take much. And it will be mostly in one ear.
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There's a lot of diet advice out there. If minimal meat didn't help you, it's not unthinkable that e.g. maximal meat might. (I'm only making this point because a nudge to try other diets might be helpful to you, and can be done safely. Apologies if it's annoying.)
The minimal-meat thing for me personally is about environmental sustainability and ethics, so not really something I’m willing to sway from. If anything I’m constantly moving more towards less and less meat, even if the opposite could help my tinnitus.
I’ve tried lots and lots of different diets (in the balance-of-foods type) over the years though and nothing really helped or harmed the tinnitus in any noticeable way.
I’ve tried lots and lots of different diets (in the balance-of-foods type) over the years though and nothing really helped or harmed the tinnitus in any noticeable way.
I've said this elsewhere in the thread, you need to learn to accept it and ignore it. Habituation it's called.
It shouldn't be bothering you at all at this point if you've had it that long.
It shouldn't be bothering you at all at this point if you've had it that long.
That's really about as helpful as telling someone with depression to stop being so negative all the time. The spirit of what you're saying is nice, but that advice is not gonna help anyone.
No it's not, it's a learned technique.
If you want to keep on suffering, go ahead, or you can learn to live with it.
If you want to keep on suffering, go ahead, or you can learn to live with it.
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More proof to support "BrainPort"[1] tongue-computer interfaces. It is clearly a cheap and effective way to stimulate neuroplasticity.
If they can give sight to the blind, balance to the unbalanced, and 3D navigation sense to Navy SEALS divers... then imagine what a low-cost tongue electrode peripheral could provide for gaming, sports, and other daily applications.
Imagine a AR/VR headset wit a wire to your mouth that allowed you to sense infrared/UV spectrum without hindering your vision. Or spatial radar sensing when you are driving your car or flying a drone. Or any number of inputs in a game. Maybe providing an extra sense of balance could even help espace the VR nausea problem.
The applications of this simple low-cost tech are astounding, and helping with tinnitus is icing on the cake.
Who is willing to build this? A 16x16 electrode grid peripheral for phones, computers, VR?
[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/can-you-see-with-your-...
If they can give sight to the blind, balance to the unbalanced, and 3D navigation sense to Navy SEALS divers... then imagine what a low-cost tongue electrode peripheral could provide for gaming, sports, and other daily applications.
Imagine a AR/VR headset wit a wire to your mouth that allowed you to sense infrared/UV spectrum without hindering your vision. Or spatial radar sensing when you are driving your car or flying a drone. Or any number of inputs in a game. Maybe providing an extra sense of balance could even help espace the VR nausea problem.
The applications of this simple low-cost tech are astounding, and helping with tinnitus is icing on the cake.
Who is willing to build this? A 16x16 electrode grid peripheral for phones, computers, VR?
[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/can-you-see-with-your-...
I hadn't heard of BrainPort until you mentioned it, but it sounds pretty interesting. It hasn't been discussed much on HN either (in the past 6 years at least[0]). Others may find it interesting too if you submitted your article
0. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
0. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
This sounds amazing.
This efficacy of this treatment just seems wildly improbable to me. You zap a person’s tongue and then play a bunch of random frequencies in their ears and it cures tinnitus? Why? What’s the mechanism? Can someone who understands neurology explain how this works?
I mean some of the reasoning in the article is so hand-wavy. Like, saying that stimulating the tongue stimulates the brain. No shit, stimulating any nerve stimulates the part of the brain that feels touch in that nerve. I don’t buy it.
I mean some of the reasoning in the article is so hand-wavy. Like, saying that stimulating the tongue stimulates the brain. No shit, stimulating any nerve stimulates the part of the brain that feels touch in that nerve. I don’t buy it.
There are a lot of things that cannot be explained in neurology like why salt on the tongue eases the pain of pepper in your eyes or how some people sleep with their eyes open. There are a lot of what I like to call 'cross-connections' in our biology that defy logic as we know it. These I suspect, are the foundation for acupuncture (not that I espouse it).
It's an article summarizing the work for the broader public. If you are interested in the details, you have got to read the actual paper.
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/564/eabb2830
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/564/eabb2830
There is a well accepted theory that tinnitus is a kind of pathological rewiring of the circuits in the brain that give rise to the sensation of sound. Whether this is compensatory for hearing loss (i.e., higher noise that your brain accepts in order to get more signal) or purely pathological is an open question, but it does sound reasonable that electric stimulation applied concurrently with sound stimulus could rectify some of the issue. I don't know how they'd determine which tones or regions to stimulate though.
We know very little about how the human nervous system actually works. Virtually all psychiatric illnesses and treatments lack any known mechanism- yet that doesn't prevent us from discovering effective treatments.
> Further testing in guinea pigs revealed the best body parts to stimulate to shut off tinnitus
How on earth do they know if guinea pigs have tinnitus and if this method shut it off in them?
How on earth do they know if guinea pigs have tinnitus and if this method shut it off in them?
Oh this is bloody awful:
> we developed a guinea pig model of tinnitus induced by noise exposure ...
> choosing a stimulus interval known to induce long-term depression (LTD). Twenty minutes per day of LTD-inducing bimodal (but not unimodal) stimulation reduced physiological and behavioral evidence of tinnitus in the guinea pigs
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/10/422/eaal3175
I'm not anti-science and I understand the need for animal testing to reduce risks to humans but this raises serious ethical concerns where no such risk to humans exists.
> we developed a guinea pig model of tinnitus induced by noise exposure ...
> choosing a stimulus interval known to induce long-term depression (LTD). Twenty minutes per day of LTD-inducing bimodal (but not unimodal) stimulation reduced physiological and behavioral evidence of tinnitus in the guinea pigs
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/10/422/eaal3175
I'm not anti-science and I understand the need for animal testing to reduce risks to humans but this raises serious ethical concerns where no such risk to humans exists.
But humans already testing on their own bodies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzU66IHe-k
Why I enjoyed this more than I should have ?
It still doesn't even make sense. How does something that "induces long term depression" have a separate effect of "reduces evidence of tinnitus"?
Are they saying this stimulation that apparently cures tinnitus also causes depression?
Are they saying this stimulation that apparently cures tinnitus also causes depression?
Ok, TIL, I thought it was cronic depression. But still, I see no reason to risk causing actual cronic depression via repeated noise trauma.
[deleted]
It means "switch off the nerves", not "make them sad".
>I'm not anti-science and I understand the need for animal testing to reduce risks to humans but this raises serious ethical concerns where no such risk to humans exists.
What concerns? We already test on animals merely for cosmetics...
What concerns? We already test on animals merely for cosmetics...
Cosmetics are potentially harmful to humans, and that harm can be prevented by testing on animals first.
Maybe there is some risk of this tinnitus treatment causing harm (could be something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome), and animal testing would avoid that. But it's not necessary to inflict extra suffering to show that. Maybe they had to show the combination of the treatment with tinnitus doesn't cause harm but I doubt that.
There's also an argument where a disease is rare and inflicting animals with it to allows for efficacy testing, but tinnitus isn't rare, plenty of human volunteers are available. (I mean, half the people in this thread have already "volunteered" to perform testing of possible treatments on themselves, myself included).
Lastly as others have pointed out there are many causes of tinnitus. The researchers only inflicted one kind of it (I'd assume it's the same kind that everyone hears after hearing loud noises, since these guinea pigs were presumably otherwise healthy), it's possible this treatment only works on that kind and is a waste of time for everyone else.
Maybe there is some risk of this tinnitus treatment causing harm (could be something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome), and animal testing would avoid that. But it's not necessary to inflict extra suffering to show that. Maybe they had to show the combination of the treatment with tinnitus doesn't cause harm but I doubt that.
There's also an argument where a disease is rare and inflicting animals with it to allows for efficacy testing, but tinnitus isn't rare, plenty of human volunteers are available. (I mean, half the people in this thread have already "volunteered" to perform testing of possible treatments on themselves, myself included).
Lastly as others have pointed out there are many causes of tinnitus. The researchers only inflicted one kind of it (I'd assume it's the same kind that everyone hears after hearing loud noises, since these guinea pigs were presumably otherwise healthy), it's possible this treatment only works on that kind and is a waste of time for everyone else.
>Cosmetics are potentially harmful to humans, and that harm can be prevented by testing on animals first.
I think the idea was "unless is needed to avoid harm" in general, not "unless is needed to avoid harm caused by people using a non-essential product".
E.g. curing cancer is OK, making BS products like cosmetics safer is pushing it as a justification (since those could just, like, not be made in the first place).
I think the idea was "unless is needed to avoid harm" in general, not "unless is needed to avoid harm caused by people using a non-essential product".
E.g. curing cancer is OK, making BS products like cosmetics safer is pushing it as a justification (since those could just, like, not be made in the first place).
I don't think you've understood my point. I agree that cosmetics testing on animals is cruel, but it does serve a purpose, it doesn't matter how fucking selfish that purpose is, my point is that purpose exists.
What is the purpose of inflicting tinnitus on animals?
What is the purpose of inflicting tinnitus on animals?
We can test animals' hearing using a BAER test (https://www.healthline.com/health/baer-brainstem-auditory-ev...) - the same one that we use on human infants for early detection of hearing issues. I don't know if it can detect 'sounds' caused by tinnitus though.
from my short trip in pills I have a few hints that the tongue has wires pretty deep in the mind
I really want one much stronger, but applied to my heart.
I remember reading of a way to stop tinnitus where you blocked your ears and thwacked your skull with a finger. It sort of worked (I wonder if it just stunned my ears?)
ok, here is a version of it:
> 1) Place the palms of your hands over your ears so your fingers wrap around the back of your head.
> 2) Set your middle fingers on the top of your neck right at the base of your skull.
> 3) Put your index fingers on top of your middle fingers and apply pressure.
> 4) Now snap them on the back of your head over and over like you’re drumming.
> 5) Repeat it about 50 times.
> Ideally, when you pull your hands away, you won’t hear any ringing, hissing, or buzzing anymore.
https://lifehacker.com/this-weird-trick-might-give-you-brief...
ok, here is a version of it:
> 1) Place the palms of your hands over your ears so your fingers wrap around the back of your head.
> 2) Set your middle fingers on the top of your neck right at the base of your skull.
> 3) Put your index fingers on top of your middle fingers and apply pressure.
> 4) Now snap them on the back of your head over and over like you’re drumming.
> 5) Repeat it about 50 times.
> Ideally, when you pull your hands away, you won’t hear any ringing, hissing, or buzzing anymore.
https://lifehacker.com/this-weird-trick-might-give-you-brief...
I use this when it's distracting the hell out of me, but usually it's just a minor background noise that I barely notice because it is perpetually there. I've never sought to do anything about it because I'm just used to it and so few things trigger it to get loud that it's generally not annoying. When it does get triggered and loud, it's the same volume as a normal talking voice, but it's pretty rare.
Mine is the same. I have no actual confirmation as to why it's there, other than the fact that i just noticed it one day i was staying in a hotel, and it's been there ever since. That was 10+ years ago. I assume it's the "usual" causes, too much loud music and decades of riding my motorbike with crappy helmets, though mine is not caused by hearing loss.
Normally it's just a slight ringing that i hardly notice if there is other stuff going on, but when i get stressed, or slouch in my office chair, it can gain volume in the evening.
I've learned to "ignore" mine. As i'm typing this i'm very aware of it because i'm "focusing on it", but when i'm doing work, watching tv, or even walking the dog i don't notice it. I find it to be the most annoying when i'm trying to listen to quiet tv, or trying to fall asleep.
What i normally do is try to focus on some other background noise. Rain falling on a window, my wife or dog breathing. This usually makes it "go away" for long enough that i'm not annoyed by it anymore.
Fun fact, ANC headphones will make mine disappear which makes absolutely no sense as the noise is non audible, so there's no noise for the headphones to cancel, and yet it goes away, or at least becomes inaudible.
Normally it's just a slight ringing that i hardly notice if there is other stuff going on, but when i get stressed, or slouch in my office chair, it can gain volume in the evening.
I've learned to "ignore" mine. As i'm typing this i'm very aware of it because i'm "focusing on it", but when i'm doing work, watching tv, or even walking the dog i don't notice it. I find it to be the most annoying when i'm trying to listen to quiet tv, or trying to fall asleep.
What i normally do is try to focus on some other background noise. Rain falling on a window, my wife or dog breathing. This usually makes it "go away" for long enough that i'm not annoyed by it anymore.
Fun fact, ANC headphones will make mine disappear which makes absolutely no sense as the noise is non audible, so there's no noise for the headphones to cancel, and yet it goes away, or at least becomes inaudible.
Be careful trying this. I just tried this on my relatively minor tinnitus and now (even the next day) it’s the worst it’s been in years.
In the interest of accuracy, I also just realized I used Neosporin yesterday for the first time in years, which I was supposed to avoid because neomycin is known to cause/worsen tinnitus. So the reason my tinnitus just got worse is very likely was the topical neomycin (or perhaps a combination of the neomycin with the procedure).
Either way, I'm seriously bummed out. It had gotten so much better. Hopefully it gets better again.
Either way, I'm seriously bummed out. It had gotten so much better. Hopefully it gets better again.
Tinnitus is not necessarily caused by one specific thing - for instance, it can be from:
- Hearing loss and/or age
- Blood pressure
- TMJ (jaw/dental issues)
- Posture issues
There's a company in Ireland (Neuromod, I think) that has a product like this that seems to be able to work for some tinnitus sufferers, but not all - possibly owing to the differing types. FX322 is a hearing-loss drug that works via stem cells and has shown promising results in treating the hearing loss angle.
If yours is TMJ or blood pressure, though... you need an entirely different plan of attack.
Posting this comment mostly because I really get tired of reading threads where this isn't acknowledged; no one cure fits all. I've had it since I was a child and while habituation does factor in slightly, I think wider understanding of this all needs to be out there.
- Hearing loss and/or age
- Blood pressure
- TMJ (jaw/dental issues)
- Posture issues
There's a company in Ireland (Neuromod, I think) that has a product like this that seems to be able to work for some tinnitus sufferers, but not all - possibly owing to the differing types. FX322 is a hearing-loss drug that works via stem cells and has shown promising results in treating the hearing loss angle.
If yours is TMJ or blood pressure, though... you need an entirely different plan of attack.
Posting this comment mostly because I really get tired of reading threads where this isn't acknowledged; no one cure fits all. I've had it since I was a child and while habituation does factor in slightly, I think wider understanding of this all needs to be out there.
I went to an audiologist and an MD for my spontaneously developed tinnitus in my 30s. They did a hearing test, asked a couple of questions that didn't apply to me and they both said "I dunno why you have it" and were fairly useless.
The only hint was a dip in a hearing chart, which wasn't big enough to be considered hearing loss or otherwise. This list alone is a better list of potential causes than those useless doctors.
The only hint was a dip in a hearing chart, which wasn't big enough to be considered hearing loss or otherwise. This list alone is a better list of potential causes than those useless doctors.
Tinnitus sufferer here who's read up a bit. I think the situation is no one knows rather than "those useless doctors" in particular. Still trial and error on possible treatments may get somewhere. I've found for me ear plugs when sounds go much over 90db help - I've got a db app on the phone.
Standard audiometry, usually, only produces a test that goes up to 8 kHz (functional speech recognition). An extended high frequency audiometry may, or may not be more revealing as it can go higher. It would have no bearing on your medical treatment though.
Tinnitus sufferer here. How can I get in on this?
I'm going to try licking a 9 volt battery.
Lol, be sure and try side, back, underside for the full experience.
Sidebar: Having done this as a kid, I ended up being able to taste polarity. Hold one wire with finger, taste other and the polarity affects the "taste" sensation.
And I realize I don't really have words to describe what it is like.
Sidebar: Having done this as a kid, I ended up being able to taste polarity. Hold one wire with finger, taste other and the polarity affects the "taste" sensation.
And I realize I don't really have words to describe what it is like.
Since this seems to be a personal anecdote thread:
I have constant tinnitus, ever since I was a child. I grew up thinking everyone heard that high pitched buzzing.
A recent hearing check showed I have better than average hearing for my age. I have TMJ disorder, but I didn't (I don't think) as a child.
I currently subscribe to the theory that mine may be caused by like, a blood vessel by chance too close to the eardrum or whatever, and that there is nothing I can do about it.
Regardless, the possible causes seem to span a wide range of things totally unrelated so everyone who didn't get it from exposure to loud sounds is on a highly personal journey.
I have constant tinnitus, ever since I was a child. I grew up thinking everyone heard that high pitched buzzing.
A recent hearing check showed I have better than average hearing for my age. I have TMJ disorder, but I didn't (I don't think) as a child.
I currently subscribe to the theory that mine may be caused by like, a blood vessel by chance too close to the eardrum or whatever, and that there is nothing I can do about it.
Regardless, the possible causes seem to span a wide range of things totally unrelated so everyone who didn't get it from exposure to loud sounds is on a highly personal journey.
What I'd like to know is what 14 points means. What's that in decibels? That would tell me if it's a meaningful improvement.
It says right in the article:
"And they saw an average drop of about 14 points on a tinnitus severity score of one to 100, the researchers report today in Science Translational Medicine"
"And they saw an average drop of about 14 points on a tinnitus severity score of one to 100, the researchers report today in Science Translational Medicine"
Large doses of antioxidants can improve tinnitus
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950042/
I started taking lots of antioxidants to improve immune function in an attempt to improve my chances with COVID and my tinnitus improved a lot!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950042/
I started taking lots of antioxidants to improve immune function in an attempt to improve my chances with COVID and my tinnitus improved a lot!
The antioxidant group received one multivitamin-multimineral tablet once a day with their meal and one tablet of alpha-lipoic acid [300 mg a-lipoic acid per tablet] twice a day on an empty stomachI got tinnitus in left ear 2 years ago due to sudden high frequency hearing loss, its hell like experience.
I am hoping for some cure for both hearing loss and tinnitus from current running trials. Current trials whose updates I am following are fx322,pipe505 and regain project.
It's better to learn to accept it.
It used to really bug me. It's going full tilt this morning, the loudest it gets, and doesn't bother me at all.
It used to really bug me. It's going full tilt this morning, the loudest it gets, and doesn't bother me at all.
But then you get electric shocks to the tongue...
Lol how did they decide on the tongue ? Did they just started shocking random body parts ?
I developed constant tinnitus a couple of years ago, probably from a sequence of causes:
I've had sinus problems since childhood. Some exposure to loud music. An upper back spine injury that affects my neck and chest muscles. With this I sometimes had tinnitus, usually worse in the evenings or after spending many hours in front of a screen.
Then I got knocked on the head twice, the second time left a small dent in my nose, and it damaged the right side of my jaw. After this the tinnitus became more permanent.
Almost worse than the tinnitus is that my ears are always popping, as in many times per day. Just sitting at my desk I'll get the same sensation you get on descent when scuba diving, and I have to pinch my nose and blow on it to equalize. Any else have this symptom?
I've had sinus problems since childhood. Some exposure to loud music. An upper back spine injury that affects my neck and chest muscles. With this I sometimes had tinnitus, usually worse in the evenings or after spending many hours in front of a screen.
Then I got knocked on the head twice, the second time left a small dent in my nose, and it damaged the right side of my jaw. After this the tinnitus became more permanent.
Almost worse than the tinnitus is that my ears are always popping, as in many times per day. Just sitting at my desk I'll get the same sensation you get on descent when scuba diving, and I have to pinch my nose and blow on it to equalize. Any else have this symptom?
> Any else have this symptom?
Yes. I don't have tinnitus or anything related, but I have been diagnosed with TMJD after months of visiting different doctors and therelike. At the end, my dentist had the right idea. There are a lot of factors that come into play. I also think that our bodies are simply not made for this much "sitting time".
Anyhow, I have a "popping" noise when I tilt my head back and forth. I simply learned to live with it. After the last sickness, I also developed a "clogged" feeling in my left ear, with my ear doctor telling me that "everything looks fine."
I also learned to live with this.
Anyhow, I have a "popping" noise when I tilt my head back and forth. I simply learned to live with it. After the last sickness, I also developed a "clogged" feeling in my left ear, with my ear doctor telling me that "everything looks fine."
I also learned to live with this.
I have had tinnitus since as long as I can remember. About a year ago, it got significantly worse during a period of time which happened to align with extreme stress in my personal life. I also developed muscle fasciculations at the same time, which led to a anxiety spiral of ALS fears (turned out to be benign like most fasciculations).
Anyway, I'm luckily one of the people who's able to sort of tune the tinnitus out.
I pretty much forget I have it until I see an article about it...
Anyway, I'm luckily one of the people who's able to sort of tune the tinnitus out.
I pretty much forget I have it until I see an article about it...
Can the author of the article answer this? I have a tens-7000 with the ear clips. They would probably work fine on the tongue. What would I need to set the Width, Rate and Mode to in order to replicate this therapy?
Cut out wearing QC35s for a day or two and the ringing goes away at night.
Do noise-cancelling headphones from the likes of Bose et all "collapse" the sound waves via interference so that the sound waves that do reach my ear are physically lesser, or is it just merely masking noise with anti-noise, and so now I get twice the noise energy pumped into my ears even if I cannot actually hear it as much?