I No Longer Tell My Friends about Anki/SuperMemo(masterhowtolearn.com)
masterhowtolearn.com
I No Longer Tell My Friends about Anki/SuperMemo
https://www.masterhowtolearn.com/2020-10-31-why-i-no-longer-tell-my-friends-about-anki-supermemo/
87 comments
Traffic signs
musical notation
geography
history
chemistry
metallurgy
physics
healthcare
...
This is one of those 'what have the Romans done for us' comments. Intelligence + facts = smarts. Facts are to thinking like fuel is to an engine, without facts your thinking will be either useless or wrong. So regardless of how smart you are some degree of access to facts is a requirement and if you can do this without having to look things up all the time it will go faster and with access to more facts the quality of your output will go up.
musical notation
geography
history
chemistry
metallurgy
physics
healthcare
...
This is one of those 'what have the Romans done for us' comments. Intelligence + facts = smarts. Facts are to thinking like fuel is to an engine, without facts your thinking will be either useless or wrong. So regardless of how smart you are some degree of access to facts is a requirement and if you can do this without having to look things up all the time it will go faster and with access to more facts the quality of your output will go up.
Did you use it for any of these and what was your experience?
I used it to study for an ICC exam. I passed the test so it worked really well i'd say.
I get what you are saying. If I were studying this would be great. But it's been a long time since I have done any formal study. Most of what I learn now days is by doing. I might read a book on a topic but never have an assignment or a test to follow up. I'm attempting to find out if others in my shoes have found a use for memorization like this. If so it might be something worth me trying.
Do you ever find yourself going back to something you used to know well, only to find that you're now a bit rusty? In theory, spaced repetition would allow you to keep that knowledge from getting stale.
I think you'll find you learn new things quicker with judicious use of spaced repetition. As a bonus, you'll never forget those things as long as you maintain the habit. And we're all always learning, so that shouldn't be hard.
I do think the hardest part of spaced repetition use outside of the classroom is choosing what to memorize. In school, those decisions are made for you. I find it easy to bite off too much and start memorizing minutiae of a technology instead of the essential items. But I think it's just another skill to master.
I think you'll find you learn new things quicker with judicious use of spaced repetition. As a bonus, you'll never forget those things as long as you maintain the habit. And we're all always learning, so that shouldn't be hard.
I do think the hardest part of spaced repetition use outside of the classroom is choosing what to memorize. In school, those decisions are made for you. I find it easy to bite off too much and start memorizing minutiae of a technology instead of the essential items. But I think it's just another skill to master.
Actually in history less so. Unless you are learning for some kind of odd test where they will demand ton of exact dates, you are better off learning how events related to each other and how they followed.
Hardest parts of physics and chemistry in understanding. Again, you can use flash card memorization here and there, but the first of it is different.
Hardest parts of physics and chemistry in understanding. Again, you can use flash card memorization here and there, but the first of it is different.
I have no formal training in history, but Anki has got me much more interested in it. Before Anki, I tended to collapse centuries of history into ‘the distant past,’ which made it hard to appreciate how events related to each other, or distinguish between events separated by years and events separated by decades or centuries. I discovered, by using Anki for an exam, that it’s relatively easy for me to remember 4-digit numbers, and relatively difficult for me to remember sequences of events. So, memorising the years of events has been a great way for me to learn more history. Arbitrary dates with no understanding of the context are harder to remember, so the cards that come up the most are the topics to read more about (or delete, if they really are useless factoids). It’s a bit like using the number line as a memory palace.
I dont have formal training either. But I found that they collapse into blob when you don't understand them. Because then you are memorizing names of events without knowing what they actually were in any detail.
Once you listen to more detailed lecture or read more detailed book, they become clearly distinct due to many small differences and stories. So misplaced event suddenly "dont makes sense", because you can explain why it could not happen then.
Once you listen to more detailed lecture or read more detailed book, they become clearly distinct due to many small differences and stories. So misplaced event suddenly "dont makes sense", because you can explain why it could not happen then.
Not to nit-pick, but physics? What would you use flash-cards for in physics? Memorizing equations? Why would you ever do that?
Besides learning vocabulary, the one place I'm really getting great results with Anki is exam preparation.
Exams are often in a very well-defined scope where you can rote learn most of the definitions, and the few exercise variants that appear in preparation also can appear on the exam.
I don't think that this is the best way to learn many things, but exams are partially tangential to true learning and it works well enough in my experience.
Exams are often in a very well-defined scope where you can rote learn most of the definitions, and the few exercise variants that appear in preparation also can appear on the exam.
I don't think that this is the best way to learn many things, but exams are partially tangential to true learning and it works well enough in my experience.
There was a post not too long ago (I can't remember it unfortunately) where someone argued that memorization (they used software development specifically as the example) could help in connecting concepts. You can be a developer who knows what to google. Or you could be one who knows lots by heart and connects everything they know. I'm a bit sceptical myself, since rote memorization seems like something that is easily forgotten after a few months..
I feel like understanding rather than pure knowledge is what allows you to connect concepts.
Yes, but some knowledge is a requirement to really understand something. Trivial example: can you really understand addition of numbers if you can't remember how to do it?
Pure memorization of facts is also really helpful to creating new understanding: Have you ever read a textbook that stacked definition upon definition and at some point you can't really keep up anymore because you're going back to the previous paragraphs all the time? At that point, pure memorization of definitions (even without understanding them really) already helps massively to reduce cognitive overload and makes forming new understanding form the rest of the text even possible.
Pure memorization of facts is also really helpful to creating new understanding: Have you ever read a textbook that stacked definition upon definition and at some point you can't really keep up anymore because you're going back to the previous paragraphs all the time? At that point, pure memorization of definitions (even without understanding them really) already helps massively to reduce cognitive overload and makes forming new understanding form the rest of the text even possible.
The point of Anki is that you will never forget an ever growing library of information if you maintain the habit.
I basically settled on an Anki-like system for cramming for tests in college. But this was a situation where I largely didn't attend class, but knew what formulas I'd need to know to pass each exam. Like clockwork, about 48 hours before an exam I'd lock myself away and make a bunch of flashcards, then spend hours rote memorizing them. It worked, and it got me through the tests, but I'd didn't really learn much.
This is NOT what Anki is for. It's called space repetition for a reason. The whole raison d'etre of spaced repetition is that you can memorize information in a fraction of the time by reviewing the information at progressively increasing intervals. If you had practiced spaced repetition, by the end of the term you would have spent a fraction of the time studying and would retain the vast majority of the information for months. If you spent a few minutes per week reviewing, you would still remember those facts today.
I’ve used flashcards quite extensively during my studies (electrical engineering and telecom engineering) and I continue to use it for technical subjects; albeit with reduced intensity.
Spaced repetition systems are not just about “rote” memorization. When used right it is a very personalized practice tool that can help with quite high-level ideas.
I wouldn’t fx. make flashcards for an entire API — instead I would focus on the concepts and features that are important for what I am doing. You can make it about “exactly” what you want to practice and remember.
Think of it more as a collection of personal notes with build in recall practice, rather than remembering scores of “random” facts.
Spaced repetition systems are not just about “rote” memorization. When used right it is a very personalized practice tool that can help with quite high-level ideas.
I wouldn’t fx. make flashcards for an entire API — instead I would focus on the concepts and features that are important for what I am doing. You can make it about “exactly” what you want to practice and remember.
Think of it more as a collection of personal notes with build in recall practice, rather than remembering scores of “random” facts.
I put all kinds of things in my Anki deck, mostly unrelated to software development, but I have created cards for things like the definitions of CRDT, ACID and monad, what link-local IPv6 addresses look like, and some useful flags in grep and parallel. Ever get annoyed by the realisation that you learned something a few months ago, but have forgotten it by the time you need it? Anki can fix this.
one (small) group that has taken to spaced repetition study techniques quite enthusiastically is the tournament scrabble community. the thing about scrabble is that you don't need to know what the words mean, you just need to memorise "acceptable sequences of letters", and also while there are ~275000 valid words in the official dictionary, people have already done the work to sort them into usefulness order. so if you want to play top-level tournament scrabble it is really helpful to simply memorise, say, the 5000-10000 (depending on your dedication) most useful words, keyed by "alphagram" (the alphabetically sorted set of letters in the word). e.g. ADEINRT -> [ANTIRED,DETRAIN,TRAINED]. again, you don't need to know or care what those words mean, just to know the they are the only three words made from that set of letters (as an aside the most useful words to memorise tend to be predominantly 2, 3, 7 and 8 letters long, most tournament players master the 2s as soon as possible, take a while with the 3s and start "cardboxing", scrabble jargon for using a flashcard app with spaced repetition, to learn the top few thousand 7s and 8s)
anki itself is not super popular since there are apps like zyzzyva that are specialised for scrabble word study, but the technique is.
anki itself is not super popular since there are apps like zyzzyva that are specialised for scrabble word study, but the technique is.
I collect interesting facts and tidbits I find in books, podcasts, and YouTube, and turn them into flashcards. It helps me remember various insights that I would otherwise forget. For example, I made cards for different Russell conjugates[0], definitions of certain words (eg culture, knowledge, optics, reify, ancillary, falsifiable), and quotes from books.
You can program yourself with flashcards[1]. EG I have a card that says "What should you do when someone is explaining something and you don't understand?" (Ask questions until you understand). When my colleague is explaining something and I just don't get it, this flashcard triggers me to ask questions, instead of pretending to understand.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation
1: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/iocMeRcSKf3gAxsTh/self-progr...
You can program yourself with flashcards[1]. EG I have a card that says "What should you do when someone is explaining something and you don't understand?" (Ask questions until you understand). When my colleague is explaining something and I just don't get it, this flashcard triggers me to ask questions, instead of pretending to understand.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation
1: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/iocMeRcSKf3gAxsTh/self-progr...
I think we've all found ourselves looking up a command line option for that one bash utility for the upteenth time. Throw it in a flash card and never look it up again. The same with text editor shortcuts, API's, etc.
My shop teacher would tell us to write down when we needed to borrow a tool. If we had to borrow a tool twice, it was time to go and buy it. I think the same rule is useful for spaced repetition. Even if you'd learn it eventually by regular use, once you have it in Anki you'll never forget it, even if you spend a couple years away from that particular technology. When you come back, you'll still have those configuration flags at the tip of your fingers.
My shop teacher would tell us to write down when we needed to borrow a tool. If we had to borrow a tool twice, it was time to go and buy it. I think the same rule is useful for spaced repetition. Even if you'd learn it eventually by regular use, once you have it in Anki you'll never forget it, even if you spend a couple years away from that particular technology. When you come back, you'll still have those configuration flags at the tip of your fingers.
That's a good point. I'll try it out for that. See if I can't finally get tar down.
https://xkcd.com/1168/
https://xkcd.com/1168/
And you have used hours of training on a thing used once every blue moon.
Congratulations, I guess?
Generally something is worth optimizing it this much when you're going to use it more than 10 times. Insert obligatory xkcd chart here: https://xkcd.com/1205/
There are things that are this useful, but they're generally in category of mathematics, potentially physics, chemistry or linguistics.
Learning parameters of a shell command, especially all of them, is a waste. Learn useful things first.
This is the main problem SuperMemo and Anki sets face, the ordering is by difficulty only and not by product of difficulty times usefulness.
Congratulations, I guess?
Generally something is worth optimizing it this much when you're going to use it more than 10 times. Insert obligatory xkcd chart here: https://xkcd.com/1205/
There are things that are this useful, but they're generally in category of mathematics, potentially physics, chemistry or linguistics.
Learning parameters of a shell command, especially all of them, is a waste. Learn useful things first.
This is the main problem SuperMemo and Anki sets face, the ordering is by difficulty only and not by product of difficulty times usefulness.
Someone calculated they expect to spend a total of around 5 minutes over their entire life studying each new Anki card. That's not such a high bar for inclusion. Spaced repetition is very efficient. Of course, it's still not reasonable to memorize entire man pages.
[deleted]
I say this with all the kindness that I have... this article/guy is really sad.
First of all, if you think you've found the world's ultimate fighting technique, don't try to show it to random people for approval. Use it. Anki yourself in secret until you're a super-saiyan, and then unleash your strength on the quivering masses. Hear the lamentation of their women, until they are begging you for mercy and also to teach them about spaced repetition.
That brings us to the second problem... spaced repetition doesn't work. Or rather, it does work, but it does the wrong thing. If you want to be a walking encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach. But if you want to understand the world, be able to do things, be funny and gregarious, know the answer but also know when to play dumb... SR can't help you. Even if you want to learn a language, if you can't learn it by using it, do you even need it?
I was excited about SuperMemo, Anki, etc. too at one point. Eventually I decided that they just aren't that good. Now here's the thing: if you really think SR is the best thing ever, don't argue with people - prove us wrong.
First of all, if you think you've found the world's ultimate fighting technique, don't try to show it to random people for approval. Use it. Anki yourself in secret until you're a super-saiyan, and then unleash your strength on the quivering masses. Hear the lamentation of their women, until they are begging you for mercy and also to teach them about spaced repetition.
That brings us to the second problem... spaced repetition doesn't work. Or rather, it does work, but it does the wrong thing. If you want to be a walking encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach. But if you want to understand the world, be able to do things, be funny and gregarious, know the answer but also know when to play dumb... SR can't help you. Even if you want to learn a language, if you can't learn it by using it, do you even need it?
I was excited about SuperMemo, Anki, etc. too at one point. Eventually I decided that they just aren't that good. Now here's the thing: if you really think SR is the best thing ever, don't argue with people - prove us wrong.
It reinforces something I think I’m slowly learning: tools are just tools, nothing more. Anki has its place, as does an impact driver; neither will make you a better person by itself.
I don't think anyone promised that spaced repetition would turn you into The Most Interesting Man in The World™, and if they did you would be rightfully disappointed. But SR is good at getting you to remember things and sometimes that's the problem you need to solve.
Not everything can be solved with a hammer, but sometimes you have a bunch of nails that need to be hammered-in.
Not everything can be solved with a hammer, but sometimes you have a bunch of nails that need to be hammered-in.
I use it to lubricate my ability. Basically every time I have to google something to do my job I toss it in anki.
Not having to look up syntax and what not is a far better productivity improvement than editor hacks for example.
Not having to look up syntax and what not is a far better productivity improvement than editor hacks for example.
I read this article and I was “ok memorization, but is that learning??” And even after perusing the supermemo website, and so on I’m still not convinced that this isn’t anything more than memorization for exams.
There’s a reason why this is popular in the “rationalist” community: they’re mostly college kids. I have never seen a coworker or other industry professional use any of these tools.
Why, because doing isn’t the same as remembering. Over time you remember by doing. That’s it.
There’s a reason why this is popular in the “rationalist” community: they’re mostly college kids. I have never seen a coworker or other industry professional use any of these tools.
Why, because doing isn’t the same as remembering. Over time you remember by doing. That’s it.
It's a good tool for learning natural languages especially if you cannot practice with native speakers every day.
I agree with you that for knowledge you need everyday it is better to just learn on the job. The relevant knowledge will stick/you can note it down in a cheat sheet if needed. There's just not enough time to learn the full feature set of a programming language, you won't need most of it anyway and you will be a better programmer by reading existing code and writing code yourself, which incidentally is similar to how best to learn a natural language (listening and speaking)
I agree with you that for knowledge you need everyday it is better to just learn on the job. The relevant knowledge will stick/you can note it down in a cheat sheet if needed. There's just not enough time to learn the full feature set of a programming language, you won't need most of it anyway and you will be a better programmer by reading existing code and writing code yourself, which incidentally is similar to how best to learn a natural language (listening and speaking)
[deleted]
> if you really think SR is the best thing ever, don't argue with people - prove us wrong.
Prove you wrong how? By learning things with it? Plenty of people already have used SR to pass tests, aid in learning a language, etc. There are scientific papers that show SR to be an effective learning tool.
I really don't get what you're asking for. It's not like SR learning is going to let you "unleash your strength on the quivering masses".
You also have to propose an alternative to it. In your comment, you seem to have critiqued it with "if you want to be an encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach. But if you want to understand the world .... SR can't help you".
The fact that you say "If you want to be an encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach" indicates to me that you think SR does actually work, and so there's nothing to prove here.
Yes, obviously if your strawman is "SR compared to moving to the culture to learn a language", then SR will fall short. But no one is saying that, everyone's saying "Instead of looking up a word in a dictionary each time you forget it, use SR, and instead of just doing immersion, do immersion + SR"
Prove you wrong how? By learning things with it? Plenty of people already have used SR to pass tests, aid in learning a language, etc. There are scientific papers that show SR to be an effective learning tool.
I really don't get what you're asking for. It's not like SR learning is going to let you "unleash your strength on the quivering masses".
You also have to propose an alternative to it. In your comment, you seem to have critiqued it with "if you want to be an encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach. But if you want to understand the world .... SR can't help you".
The fact that you say "If you want to be an encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach" indicates to me that you think SR does actually work, and so there's nothing to prove here.
Yes, obviously if your strawman is "SR compared to moving to the culture to learn a language", then SR will fall short. But no one is saying that, everyone's saying "Instead of looking up a word in a dictionary each time you forget it, use SR, and instead of just doing immersion, do immersion + SR"
> Prove you wrong how? By learning things with it?
The author of the article is specifically struggling with his evangelism. He says he thinks the world would be a better place if everyone used spaced repetition. I don't know (can't imagine honestly) what sort of utopia he envisions, but he needs to show instead of tell. Just like I need to.
It's so insanely hard to lead people. I think the only thing that works is to lead by example. Any sort of talking is just fluff. You have to show people how to accomplish or attain something they care about.
As for SR itself... for decades we've had some of the smartest people (and perhaps even some of the best educators) like Richard Feynman decry rote memorization in the classroom. SR takes the worst 8th grade history class you ever had and doubles down on it. You can choose what to memorize, but it's still just memorization. Why not use a personal knowledge base (== your Anki deck) that you can refer to, and let your memory naturally cache the things you commonly use?
If you have a problem and you're considering SR as a way to solve it, my advice is to really drill down into what the problem is. Why do you think you need to fill your brain with snippets of data? (If you're just trying to pass a test, then sure, use Anki.)
The author of the article is specifically struggling with his evangelism. He says he thinks the world would be a better place if everyone used spaced repetition. I don't know (can't imagine honestly) what sort of utopia he envisions, but he needs to show instead of tell. Just like I need to.
It's so insanely hard to lead people. I think the only thing that works is to lead by example. Any sort of talking is just fluff. You have to show people how to accomplish or attain something they care about.
As for SR itself... for decades we've had some of the smartest people (and perhaps even some of the best educators) like Richard Feynman decry rote memorization in the classroom. SR takes the worst 8th grade history class you ever had and doubles down on it. You can choose what to memorize, but it's still just memorization. Why not use a personal knowledge base (== your Anki deck) that you can refer to, and let your memory naturally cache the things you commonly use?
If you have a problem and you're considering SR as a way to solve it, my advice is to really drill down into what the problem is. Why do you think you need to fill your brain with snippets of data? (If you're just trying to pass a test, then sure, use Anki.)
Spaced repetition is the way your brain stores everything, even abstract ideas, mathematics,etc. You can only remember anything either by having repeated exposure to it, or having it really connected to some other memory of yours.
Also, you seem to underestimate the importance of having encyclopedic knowledge. I agree that it is not useful to have random facts in your mind, but passive knowledge is extremely important - like even on topics you are not well-informed about, having learnt something about it in the past will put you in a much more open-minded position on it. If people were to remember some really basic biology from high school, they would be much less open to bullshit like “alternative medicine”,anti-vaccines, etc.
Also, you seem to underestimate the importance of having encyclopedic knowledge. I agree that it is not useful to have random facts in your mind, but passive knowledge is extremely important - like even on topics you are not well-informed about, having learnt something about it in the past will put you in a much more open-minded position on it. If people were to remember some really basic biology from high school, they would be much less open to bullshit like “alternative medicine”,anti-vaccines, etc.
> As for SR itself... for decades we've had some of the smartest people (and perhaps even some of the best educators) like Richard Feynman decry rote memorization in the classroom
At the same time, learning in most areas requires some memorization. Even if, in terms of knowledge skills, SR only helps directly with the memorization component, there's considerable empirical evidence that it does make that more time efficient. Using it to structure that part of learning allows you, all other things being equal, to reduce the proportion of learning time devoted to memorization.
> SR takes the worst 8th grade history class you ever had and doubles down on it.
Well, SRS maybe. Having first learned about SR in ballroom dance teacher training as a tool for structuring both curriculum for in-person instruction and personal practice, I disagree.
The common usage pattern for spaced repetition software may do that, but spaced repetition is more than just that.
At the same time, learning in most areas requires some memorization. Even if, in terms of knowledge skills, SR only helps directly with the memorization component, there's considerable empirical evidence that it does make that more time efficient. Using it to structure that part of learning allows you, all other things being equal, to reduce the proportion of learning time devoted to memorization.
> SR takes the worst 8th grade history class you ever had and doubles down on it.
Well, SRS maybe. Having first learned about SR in ballroom dance teacher training as a tool for structuring both curriculum for in-person instruction and personal practice, I disagree.
The common usage pattern for spaced repetition software may do that, but spaced repetition is more than just that.
Right. If you're gonna "lead" by talking, the disconnect is only going to widen. A leader doesn't need to know the details, but need to know enough to be relevant.
> Why do you think you need to fill your brain with snippets of data?
Because you can combine instantly different pieces of your knowledge to attain new insights.
If it's not in your brain you might not even think of Googling it.
Because you can combine instantly different pieces of your knowledge to attain new insights.
If it's not in your brain you might not even think of Googling it.
The “Feynman technique” is all about writing your own notes, reviewing them to identify gaps in your knowledge, and organising them. That is basically how you are supposed to use spaced repetition software. In this context, Feynman’s criticism of rote memorisation just means “avoid downloading premade decks.”
Sadly Feynman technique presupposes you're taking good notes.
It is also extremely labour intensive compared to spaced repetition without noting - using direct material of similar or higher level, preferably different modality - passive, creative, vision, sound, kinesthetic.
How do you note a movement? Or sound?
You'll waste some time reading material you already know, but that is the essence of spaced repetition; the use of different modality makes it much more potent.
This is what the SR tools don't get, or where you need to put in huge amounts of time building decks. Most of them pose passive problems. Even the simplest learning books have exercises which are supposed to engage active modality, on top of testing.
It is also extremely labour intensive compared to spaced repetition without noting - using direct material of similar or higher level, preferably different modality - passive, creative, vision, sound, kinesthetic.
How do you note a movement? Or sound?
You'll waste some time reading material you already know, but that is the essence of spaced repetition; the use of different modality makes it much more potent.
This is what the SR tools don't get, or where you need to put in huge amounts of time building decks. Most of them pose passive problems. Even the simplest learning books have exercises which are supposed to engage active modality, on top of testing.
> The author of the article is specifically struggling with his evangelism. He says he thinks the world would be a better place if everyone used spaced repetition. I don't know (can't imagine honestly) what sort of utopia he envisions, but he needs to show instead of tell. Just like I need to.
This standard isn't tenable for some things.
For example, I think the world would be a better place if we gave everyone free healthcare. What's that, the standard for this has to be me literally doing the thing I'm advocating for?
In a similar vein, all the author's really saying is "if people cared about learning, and implemented strategies to learn, we'd live in a better world" (a more informed, thoughtful society perhaps). Whether SR actually accomplishes any of that is questionable, but the idea that people continuing to practice to learn will improve the world does not seem like it merits a "show me and I'll believe you" answer.
Just like it's unreasonable to say "well, implement free healthcare, until then I won't believe that it's worth doing", it's unreasonable to say "convince everyone to use SR, until then I won't use it or be convinced". It's an impossible bar.
It's also impossible to lead by example for aggregate behaviors. If you think that a park would be better if everyone picked up dog poop, and you lead by example by picking up all your dog's poop, that doesn't mean you're wrong if other people still don't pick up their own dog's poop.
This standard isn't tenable for some things.
For example, I think the world would be a better place if we gave everyone free healthcare. What's that, the standard for this has to be me literally doing the thing I'm advocating for?
In a similar vein, all the author's really saying is "if people cared about learning, and implemented strategies to learn, we'd live in a better world" (a more informed, thoughtful society perhaps). Whether SR actually accomplishes any of that is questionable, but the idea that people continuing to practice to learn will improve the world does not seem like it merits a "show me and I'll believe you" answer.
Just like it's unreasonable to say "well, implement free healthcare, until then I won't believe that it's worth doing", it's unreasonable to say "convince everyone to use SR, until then I won't use it or be convinced". It's an impossible bar.
It's also impossible to lead by example for aggregate behaviors. If you think that a park would be better if everyone picked up dog poop, and you lead by example by picking up all your dog's poop, that doesn't mean you're wrong if other people still don't pick up their own dog's poop.
> Even if you want to learn a language, if you can't learn it by using it, do you even need it?
I'm not really into flashcards, but I'm seeing a lot of comments like this, that flashcards are only good for memorization. I think they're more useful than that. You can use flashcards similar to how you would train a machine learning model, large iterations of input and feedback. People who are serious about language learning with SRS don't just study words but whole sentences per card. You could probably use flashcard to train yourself in many things that would be considered skills, not just knowledge. For example, you could put chess problems with answers on flashcards. If the resolution were high enough you could probably train yourself to recognize forged paintings. Things like that.
I'm not really into flashcards, but I'm seeing a lot of comments like this, that flashcards are only good for memorization. I think they're more useful than that. You can use flashcards similar to how you would train a machine learning model, large iterations of input and feedback. People who are serious about language learning with SRS don't just study words but whole sentences per card. You could probably use flashcard to train yourself in many things that would be considered skills, not just knowledge. For example, you could put chess problems with answers on flashcards. If the resolution were high enough you could probably train yourself to recognize forged paintings. Things like that.
The thing is, SR is the world's "ultimate fighting technique" in school. Outside of school and language learning there are more caveats. It's not always obvious which facts are worth memorizing, and sometimes we're not actually doing much new in our day-to-day work. It certainly won't in and of itself turn you into a 10X programmer. But neither will touch typing. It certainly doesn't hurt though.
If memory helps, spaced repetition can help. You’re confusing knowledge with facts. You put in what you want to be reminded of at spaced intervals. Half of my spaced repetition stuff is actually my own personal philosophy and observations about life.
Knowledge isn’t that crap you get out of books. It’s whatever you can know that empowers you.
Knowledge isn’t that crap you get out of books. It’s whatever you can know that empowers you.
> If you want to be a walking encyclopedia, maybe SR is a good approach. But if you want to understand the world, be able to do things... SR can't help you.
Yes, merely memorizing a lot of facts is not very useful. But unfortunately, burning a lookup table to your head is often a crucial step for actually using many types of knowledge, and it's a real headache for beginners. I find it's entirely possible to fully understand a result, yet unable to clearly remember it. When you need to use the result, having to pause and think (even for a few seconds), creates a significant cognitive overhead. Being able to recall some results mechanically is often advantageous.
For example, a long time ago, it was lifechanging after I had discovered "man 7 units" and eventually remembered that 1 kilo = 1/(1 milli) = 1e3, 1 mega = 1/(1 micro) = 1e6, 1 giga = 1/(1 nano) = 1e9, 1 tera = 1/(1 pico) = 1e12, I was able to calculate much faster, and to say "The CPU is clocked at 1 GHz, which means it ticks every 1 nanosecond" without thinking. Previously, I fully understood what a SI prefix is, but I simply couldn't build a lookup table in my brain to map words to the number of zeros, and always needed to pause a moment to count. The man page allowed me to instantly check it while making calculation without leaving the commandline, effectively it was spaced repetition without software, and I finally remembered them...
This is when spaced repetition is useful - burning some lookup tables to your brain. It cannot help you to understand things, but it has its place. Just be aware of its limitation.
Yes, merely memorizing a lot of facts is not very useful. But unfortunately, burning a lookup table to your head is often a crucial step for actually using many types of knowledge, and it's a real headache for beginners. I find it's entirely possible to fully understand a result, yet unable to clearly remember it. When you need to use the result, having to pause and think (even for a few seconds), creates a significant cognitive overhead. Being able to recall some results mechanically is often advantageous.
For example, a long time ago, it was lifechanging after I had discovered "man 7 units" and eventually remembered that 1 kilo = 1/(1 milli) = 1e3, 1 mega = 1/(1 micro) = 1e6, 1 giga = 1/(1 nano) = 1e9, 1 tera = 1/(1 pico) = 1e12, I was able to calculate much faster, and to say "The CPU is clocked at 1 GHz, which means it ticks every 1 nanosecond" without thinking. Previously, I fully understood what a SI prefix is, but I simply couldn't build a lookup table in my brain to map words to the number of zeros, and always needed to pause a moment to count. The man page allowed me to instantly check it while making calculation without leaving the commandline, effectively it was spaced repetition without software, and I finally remembered them...
This is when spaced repetition is useful - burning some lookup tables to your brain. It cannot help you to understand things, but it has its place. Just be aware of its limitation.
Ancdata-o-story similar to what the author describes in the article.
2-3 months ago I was about to take the Goethe B1 exam (German language). I would had probably passed it anyway, but wanted to be sure. I downloaded the official Goethe B1 wordlist (2.5k words), and one week before the exam I started learning it in Anki.
I spent on avg. 2.5h per day, and out of those 2.5k words, I didn't know maybe 800. I've learnt them. Many of those words appeared later during the exam.
I told about it my German teacher, somewhat excited, and she was sort-a 'meh, whatever, you can also learn in other ways'. I tried to explain, that "800 words, and in a week, and so fast", but as much as she loved my good exam results, she had no intention to recommend this way of learning to others.
2-3 months ago I was about to take the Goethe B1 exam (German language). I would had probably passed it anyway, but wanted to be sure. I downloaded the official Goethe B1 wordlist (2.5k words), and one week before the exam I started learning it in Anki.
I spent on avg. 2.5h per day, and out of those 2.5k words, I didn't know maybe 800. I've learnt them. Many of those words appeared later during the exam.
I told about it my German teacher, somewhat excited, and she was sort-a 'meh, whatever, you can also learn in other ways'. I tried to explain, that "800 words, and in a week, and so fast", but as much as she loved my good exam results, she had no intention to recommend this way of learning to others.
Do you still know those 800 words today?
German -> English (or my mother tongue) is easy. I probably remember >90%. But the other way it's harder. I remember maybe half of those German words, further 1/4 I can recall after some mental effort, and probably 1/4 are lost or they would require say >10 min thinking (actually possible to recover them with some techniques).
In any case I use many of those words actively today (e.g. during my German classes).
E.g. yesterday, I tried to use word 'horizontal' in German, as it was on the list, and couldn't recall it quickly. My teacher gave me the word ('waagrecht'), and I should have obviously know it, and would know the meaning if somebody used it in German, but couldn't recall it easily.
In any case I use many of those words actively today (e.g. during my German classes).
E.g. yesterday, I tried to use word 'horizontal' in German, as it was on the list, and couldn't recall it quickly. My teacher gave me the word ('waagrecht'), and I should have obviously know it, and would know the meaning if somebody used it in German, but couldn't recall it easily.
SRS is the classic technical user situation. Anki looks like it’s from 1995 and has a massive initial learning curve with specialized vocabulary to learn (Cloze, decks, etc.) When it’s advertised, the copy is overly technical and confusing to the average person. Just look at SuperMemo’s home page, for an example:
https://www.supermemo.com/en
To get widespread SRS adoption, two things need to happen:
1. The primary software needs to be simplified and prettified. The aesthetics of Anki are unappealing to pretty much everyone. And just using it has a learning curve far greater than basically every other popular app.
2. The marketing message needs to be about benefits, not features. No one cares about the forgetting curve or the intricacies of available card types. Everyone cares about saving time and money, learning cool stuff, and having fun.
https://www.supermemo.com/en
To get widespread SRS adoption, two things need to happen:
1. The primary software needs to be simplified and prettified. The aesthetics of Anki are unappealing to pretty much everyone. And just using it has a learning curve far greater than basically every other popular app.
2. The marketing message needs to be about benefits, not features. No one cares about the forgetting curve or the intricacies of available card types. Everyone cares about saving time and money, learning cool stuff, and having fun.
I’m always curious about the “Anki should be prettier” comment.
I use Anki a lot, so I’m not in the best position to judge its first-hand impression. But, what would you say should change? Both in terms of visuals and interaction?
Genuinely asking.
I use Anki a lot, so I’m not in the best position to judge its first-hand impression. But, what would you say should change? Both in terms of visuals and interaction?
Genuinely asking.
Anki has _way_ too many knobs and options. It is overwhelming, and they are also footguns.
The success of WaniKani for example is notable because you can effectively make the exact same thing for free using Anki (and the unofficial decks are available) but it is still quite popular to pay for the managed experience.
The success of WaniKani for example is notable because you can effectively make the exact same thing for free using Anki (and the unofficial decks are available) but it is still quite popular to pay for the managed experience.
I’m sorry for being dense, but I don’t quite understand the issue.
From the workflow of downloading Anki and adding to the default deck, how do the settings and knobs factor into it?
I’m not here to just argue. I am legitimately interested. I just don’t want to assume too much.
From the workflow of downloading Anki and adding to the default deck, how do the settings and knobs factor into it?
I’m not here to just argue. I am legitimately interested. I just don’t want to assume too much.
Have you seen the iOS app, for example?
https://apps.apple.com/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493387
It looks just as dodgy as “doctors hate this one weird trick”, and costs a ton up front. Why would I believe something like that?
https://apps.apple.com/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493387
It looks just as dodgy as “doctors hate this one weird trick”, and costs a ton up front. Why would I believe something like that?
Sorry if I come off as pedantic, but what makes it look dodgy? Is it just the polish and alignment?
I use it daily and I just find it functional, but I’m also very used to it.
I use it daily and I just find it functional, but I’m also very used to it.
The AnkiDroid app for Android is free, and is basically a reimplementation of Anki with compatible behaviors, storage formats and configuration. It's a complete, self-contained Anki implementation; it does not require anything on a desktop computer.
I baulked at the $25 price as much as anyone else would, so I used the free desktop app, and web app which works on mobile (ankiweb.net), for a month. After that, I was happy to pay $25 to support the developer and get the ability to edit cards on mobile and work offline.
I also use Anki daily. Just off the top of my head:
- The UI is an ugly light gray with too much text. I'd make the design far more minimal.
- Too much of a focus on text. Video, audio and GIFs should be more integrated into cards, especially for stuff like foreign languages.
- Way too many options: note types, sort fields, tags, on and on. I've been using Anki for years and I don't even know what half of these things do.
- The entire process of adding cards is confusing and not immediately obvious. There's not even a tutorial.
- Premade decks have zero quality control and you have to go looking for them online.
- Above all, Anki just looks and feels like a chore. When I show it to people (like OP), the overwhelming reaction is always, "Meh." There's nothing exciting, beautiful or futuristic about it.
- The UI is an ugly light gray with too much text. I'd make the design far more minimal.
- Too much of a focus on text. Video, audio and GIFs should be more integrated into cards, especially for stuff like foreign languages.
- Way too many options: note types, sort fields, tags, on and on. I've been using Anki for years and I don't even know what half of these things do.
- The entire process of adding cards is confusing and not immediately obvious. There's not even a tutorial.
- Premade decks have zero quality control and you have to go looking for them online.
- Above all, Anki just looks and feels like a chore. When I show it to people (like OP), the overwhelming reaction is always, "Meh." There's nothing exciting, beautiful or futuristic about it.
I use AnkiDroid on Android. The UI supports a dark mode.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to use the original desktop Anki, which chains you to a PC or laptop. Though in the pre-mobile-computing era, such a program would have been attractive.
This technique begs to be mobile, so you can do reviews in any occasion when you would be otherwise idly waiting for something, like standing in line somewhere. Buses, trains, planes, waiting rooms, washroom stalls ...
You can micro-review. If you have just a few seconds to spare, you can whip out your phone and just do one review and put it away. That's one less to do later.
I sometimes do AnkiDroid reviews lying down in bed, before sleeping. You can turn of screen rotation and work sideways.
I've woken up in the middle of the night and completed the last few reviews of the day. That's possible from having the phone near the hand; no way would I get up, and sit at a desktop PC to do that, or even laptop.
The desktop Anki is completely pointless except for (1) serving as the reference implementation and (2) certain complicated maintenance tasks on large decks.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to use the original desktop Anki, which chains you to a PC or laptop. Though in the pre-mobile-computing era, such a program would have been attractive.
This technique begs to be mobile, so you can do reviews in any occasion when you would be otherwise idly waiting for something, like standing in line somewhere. Buses, trains, planes, waiting rooms, washroom stalls ...
You can micro-review. If you have just a few seconds to spare, you can whip out your phone and just do one review and put it away. That's one less to do later.
I sometimes do AnkiDroid reviews lying down in bed, before sleeping. You can turn of screen rotation and work sideways.
I've woken up in the middle of the night and completed the last few reviews of the day. That's possible from having the phone near the hand; no way would I get up, and sit at a desktop PC to do that, or even laptop.
The desktop Anki is completely pointless except for (1) serving as the reference implementation and (2) certain complicated maintenance tasks on large decks.
I use Anki on desktop because it lets me type 1000x faster than on a phone. Hugely important for Cloze cards and language learning.
It really isn't even a comparison...the mobile app is only useful if I'm on the go and have a minute to do some cards. An hour on the desktop version will let you do hundreds, even thousands of cards, while mobile is maybe a hundred, tops, assuming you want to stare at your phone that long.
It really isn't even a comparison...the mobile app is only useful if I'm on the go and have a minute to do some cards. An hour on the desktop version will let you do hundreds, even thousands of cards, while mobile is maybe a hundred, tops, assuming you want to stare at your phone that long.
There isn't anything to type; just buttons to hit.
That's an inefficient way to learn. Especially with foreign languages, where it's beneficial to type out the word or phrase.
Other than keyboarding/IME practice, there is no benefit to typing out a word or phrase compared to recalling the word or phrase and seeing that it matches exactly. If you see the right spelling in your mind and "hear" the word, you obviously know the word and could type it if required.
(For languages with an ideographic writing system, there is a benefit to writing by hand, but that's a whole separate story.)
It sounds as if your flashcards are in a format where the foreign word is the answer, or embedded in the answer via a cloze. That's not the only way Anki is used. If the flashcards are in a foreign-word -> definition format, the typing would have to be definition-side, to which there is little benefit. All the more obviously so for definitions that are in your native language. Definitions are too verbose to type out, and difficult to machine-grade due to variations in wording.
I understand the efficiency benefit that keyboarding can bring, but it's not realized in Anki.
I made a very good application for kanji memorization, where the keyboard is the key to efficiency. The reason is that in this program, all of the characters you are tested on appear on the same screen simultaneously. You type answers into blanks next to each character, and use Tab to move from one to the next. The machine grades your answers when you're done; you don't have to engage in time-wasting self-checking. This is extremely fast because you can operate in pipeline mode: your eyes scan ahead several characters while your fingers type without stopping. Also, if you're having trouble recalling, you can just leave the answer blank and then easily return to it before submitting the test for grading. Often, your mind will come up with the answer in the background, while you are filling other answers.
The main source of inefficiency in Anki is the stop-and-go blocking: being shown one card at a time, and not being able to go to the next card until passing the current card. Anki is best used for the cards for which that is the most efficient approach: cards that have a simple front, and a complex back that requires self-evaluation. For cards that have a one or two word answer that can be machine-checked, I would find (or develop) something much more efficient than Anki.
(For languages with an ideographic writing system, there is a benefit to writing by hand, but that's a whole separate story.)
It sounds as if your flashcards are in a format where the foreign word is the answer, or embedded in the answer via a cloze. That's not the only way Anki is used. If the flashcards are in a foreign-word -> definition format, the typing would have to be definition-side, to which there is little benefit. All the more obviously so for definitions that are in your native language. Definitions are too verbose to type out, and difficult to machine-grade due to variations in wording.
I understand the efficiency benefit that keyboarding can bring, but it's not realized in Anki.
I made a very good application for kanji memorization, where the keyboard is the key to efficiency. The reason is that in this program, all of the characters you are tested on appear on the same screen simultaneously. You type answers into blanks next to each character, and use Tab to move from one to the next. The machine grades your answers when you're done; you don't have to engage in time-wasting self-checking. This is extremely fast because you can operate in pipeline mode: your eyes scan ahead several characters while your fingers type without stopping. Also, if you're having trouble recalling, you can just leave the answer blank and then easily return to it before submitting the test for grading. Often, your mind will come up with the answer in the background, while you are filling other answers.
The main source of inefficiency in Anki is the stop-and-go blocking: being shown one card at a time, and not being able to go to the next card until passing the current card. Anki is best used for the cards for which that is the most efficient approach: cards that have a simple front, and a complex back that requires self-evaluation. For cards that have a one or two word answer that can be machine-checked, I would find (or develop) something much more efficient than Anki.
Just downloaded it as a result of this post. Seems highly functional, and something I think I'm going to try and use. But to answer your question, here is my one nitpick:
On the Mac app, why do some of the "tabs" at the top replace the contents of the current window, while others open up a whole new window. For example, clicking on "Decks" shows a list of desks in the main Anki window. Clicking on "Stats" opens up a second window, and leaves the main window unaffected. What is the purpose of this inconsistency. I personally rarely want a second window in an App, as it is another window I have to manage. But perhaps some people like having 3 Anki windows open at once, and being able to simultaneously see their Decks, Stats, and Browse content at once. But if this is how the workflow is supposed to be, you shouldn't make all the buttons look like tabs at the top.
I was going to reply that Quizlet (a mainstream/pretty learning app) offers SRS. I even found their launch announcement from 2017. [1] Then I saw that they killed it in 2020. [2] I wonder why?
1: https://quizlet.com/blog/spaced-repetition-for-all-cognitive...
2: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/36567535/Quizlet-is-shutt...
1: https://quizlet.com/blog/spaced-repetition-for-all-cognitive...
2: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/36567535/Quizlet-is-shutt...
It could have been from 1975. Maybe not. But that's not the point.
The interface year is irrelevant as long as the interface is usable to the point that it is invisible. Which is not. It's horrible. It doesn't have anything usable that could sit on top of its basic feature which is spaced repetition. That's kind of the only thing it has.
When I first got into Linux I was like this. I regret it, now I very rarely recommend someone to try it and almost never help them set it up. I guest most people here understand why, tfa is very recognizable to me.
Now 20 years later I run all my infrastructure from my basement, no cloud dependency for me, my OS does not spy on me and all tools I need for day to day life are Free... Freedom!!! See I proved them wrong, they should have gotten into it... Right? Wrong! Nobody cares!
Now 20 years later I run all my infrastructure from my basement, no cloud dependency for me, my OS does not spy on me and all tools I need for day to day life are Free... Freedom!!! See I proved them wrong, they should have gotten into it... Right? Wrong! Nobody cares!
>Right? Wrong! Nobody cares!
Until they're obviously affected by the implications (e.g. of depencies & privacy) :)
Until they're obviously affected by the implications (e.g. of depencies & privacy) :)
I’m sorry you feel like nobody cares. I relate to your message, and I think soon many people will appreciate the benefit of private/wholly-owned infrastructure.
Yeah there are indeed people that care, thinly scattered around the world. I found soms nice communities, like the Jupiter broadcasting and Ubuntu podcast communities. This is where I vent my enthusiasm nowadays, and I get much better responses :)
> See I proved them wrong, they should have gotten into it... Right? Wrong! Nobody cares!
Same experience.
But now I found having a cynical mentality is actually liberating, it allowed me to mostly ignore arguments and holy wars among people regarding to the platforms I'm using. I can only say, "It's simply my personal preference, and I fully accept any good or bad consequences of my choices. Talk to me only if you are genuinely interested." Now my main computer is not even running a standard distro anymore, but QubesOS, an experimental security operating system. When I first installed QubesOS, I found I was unable to work on my personal projects because some features I needed was missing. Instead of writing an angry blogpost (it sucks!) or defending my choice (this view is unfair for a project with limited resources!), I immediately cloned the git repository and spent a week hacking the source code to make it work for me without saying anything. Objectively, is it a good user experience? Not at all, but I'm personally okay with that, and hacking code is much more enjoyable than advocating the platform in an argument.
I guess this mentality is not good for encouraging improvements, and I fully respect those who choose to actively engage, but for me, I need to have a rest.
Same experience.
But now I found having a cynical mentality is actually liberating, it allowed me to mostly ignore arguments and holy wars among people regarding to the platforms I'm using. I can only say, "It's simply my personal preference, and I fully accept any good or bad consequences of my choices. Talk to me only if you are genuinely interested." Now my main computer is not even running a standard distro anymore, but QubesOS, an experimental security operating system. When I first installed QubesOS, I found I was unable to work on my personal projects because some features I needed was missing. Instead of writing an angry blogpost (it sucks!) or defending my choice (this view is unfair for a project with limited resources!), I immediately cloned the git repository and spent a week hacking the source code to make it work for me without saying anything. Objectively, is it a good user experience? Not at all, but I'm personally okay with that, and hacking code is much more enjoyable than advocating the platform in an argument.
I guess this mentality is not good for encouraging improvements, and I fully respect those who choose to actively engage, but for me, I need to have a rest.
Having preferences and letting other people have their preferences, doesn't strike me as cynical, but of maturity.
"Works for me" is the cynical part. For example, the Chaos Computer Club once used the phrase as the catchphrase for the 33C3 conference to highlight the problem [0]. It's defined as...
> A commonly used phrase by software developers to indicate that the bug reported by a user is not repeatable on their machine, and will therefore receive no more attention. Usually connotes a dismissive approach, where anything that is not visible immediately to the developer is "someone else’s problem" and is therefore not worth fixing.
[0] https://events.ccc.de/2016/11/22/hello-this-is-33c3-works-fo...
> A commonly used phrase by software developers to indicate that the bug reported by a user is not repeatable on their machine, and will therefore receive no more attention. Usually connotes a dismissive approach, where anything that is not visible immediately to the developer is "someone else’s problem" and is therefore not worth fixing.
[0] https://events.ccc.de/2016/11/22/hello-this-is-33c3-works-fo...
> See I proved them wrong, they should have gotten into it... Right? Wrong! Nobody cares!
You're right, just like the OP is right. The people you're talking to you don't care about the specific things that you care about (privacy in your case, improved learning/memory in the OP's case).
That's understandable - different people care about different things.
You're right, just like the OP is right. The people you're talking to you don't care about the specific things that you care about (privacy in your case, improved learning/memory in the OP's case).
That's understandable - different people care about different things.
Why is this on the front of HN? It’s a boring blog post about some, seemingly entitled, person who’s on a rant about people not wanting to listen to Jehovah’s witnesses.
It’s not remotely useful. Changing hearts and minds is a skill in itself. It’s why people spend 3-5 years in a university to pick up skills on how to do it. Yet here we have some anecdotal story about someone who fails to convince strangers about some method of learning that is described as “99% of people never learn learning, you can be the 1% by doing this...”, and lets be honest, those people aren’t the authors friends, because actual friends don’t just shrug off your interests. I feel like I’ve just read an article on a subreddit about cringe or niceguys/gals about someone socially awkward who don’t understand why people don’t think they are the greatest.
Maybe it’s just me, but I sure wish I hadn’t ever read this.
It’s not remotely useful. Changing hearts and minds is a skill in itself. It’s why people spend 3-5 years in a university to pick up skills on how to do it. Yet here we have some anecdotal story about someone who fails to convince strangers about some method of learning that is described as “99% of people never learn learning, you can be the 1% by doing this...”, and lets be honest, those people aren’t the authors friends, because actual friends don’t just shrug off your interests. I feel like I’ve just read an article on a subreddit about cringe or niceguys/gals about someone socially awkward who don’t understand why people don’t think they are the greatest.
Maybe it’s just me, but I sure wish I hadn’t ever read this.
I started learning Korean during our age of perpetual quarantine, and the first thing I did when I sat down to start was ask myself, “How do I study?” I’m a decade or so out from my last bit of formal education, and I haven’t had to sit down and study since.
If you research that question - “how to study?”- a bit, you will immediately be inundated with dozens of resources swearing by spaced repetition. Once you use it for a few weeks, it’s clear that the practice itself is helpful for retention. However, flashcards alone are simply not going to teach you a full language. You need reading exercises, speaking exercises, listening exercises, and writing exercises. These are rarely, if ever, all found in one place, and I quickly found myself following a few different programs, each teaching part of the full puzzle.
People don’t want a tool. They want a silver bullet. Anki is very much just a tool, and like other tools, it requires you to do work with the tool to get a desired output. Making good cards is a time consuming nightmare if you want images and sounds, and getting those cards to sync across devices is non-trivial; you’re lucky when a mobile app supports importing all your media in your decks, or lets you study reversed cards in a sensible way. Proponents will say, “You can just import some great premade decks!” This might be useful for an intermediate, but as a beginner, having a deck full of vocabulary that deviates from the words I’m being taught in my other lessons is nearly useless.
I can see how it’s tempting to tell the world - “You could learn so much faster with this one weird trick!” And the author knows that sale works; it’s easy to get someone to try Anki. Those users quickly realize that there are barriers to reaching the point where they have a net productivity increase, so why would they change what was working just fine for them already?
If you research that question - “how to study?”- a bit, you will immediately be inundated with dozens of resources swearing by spaced repetition. Once you use it for a few weeks, it’s clear that the practice itself is helpful for retention. However, flashcards alone are simply not going to teach you a full language. You need reading exercises, speaking exercises, listening exercises, and writing exercises. These are rarely, if ever, all found in one place, and I quickly found myself following a few different programs, each teaching part of the full puzzle.
People don’t want a tool. They want a silver bullet. Anki is very much just a tool, and like other tools, it requires you to do work with the tool to get a desired output. Making good cards is a time consuming nightmare if you want images and sounds, and getting those cards to sync across devices is non-trivial; you’re lucky when a mobile app supports importing all your media in your decks, or lets you study reversed cards in a sensible way. Proponents will say, “You can just import some great premade decks!” This might be useful for an intermediate, but as a beginner, having a deck full of vocabulary that deviates from the words I’m being taught in my other lessons is nearly useless.
I can see how it’s tempting to tell the world - “You could learn so much faster with this one weird trick!” And the author knows that sale works; it’s easy to get someone to try Anki. Those users quickly realize that there are barriers to reaching the point where they have a net productivity increase, so why would they change what was working just fine for them already?
I think probably the main issue is that a lot of people just don't enjoy studying with flashcards. You could tell them it will literally make them 2x more efficient, and even if they believe you they still won't want to use it.
The older I get, the less I care about influencing other people in any way.
Similar experience here. Different domain, but a topic that could be useful for most people, but isn’t interesting for most people.
Solution: don’t talk too much about it. Casually drop a sentence or two and then let them figure out the rest.
Your goal should be that someone hears of your important topic at all. Because it’s often just random chance whether or not we stumble over something that is interesting or good for us.
That’s why the randomness of HN is so appealing. 95% is useless for one specific person, but once in a while that person stumbles upon a gem that is exactly right for them.
And sometimes, it is the right info but not the right time and they might come back to you later to ask more, although this rarely happens.
Make a website for people that are already interested in the topic. The rest of your effort should be spend just mentioning the sheer existence of your topic. Don’t lecture anyone. That is enough.
OP talks for 10 minutes about SRS. Yes, nobody gives a shit. Instead say: I use Anki, because it helps me to learn XYZ a lot faster. Then change the topic. Not mentioning it at all is bad, because it robs the other person of the chance that this is the gem they actually need right now.
Solution: don’t talk too much about it. Casually drop a sentence or two and then let them figure out the rest.
Your goal should be that someone hears of your important topic at all. Because it’s often just random chance whether or not we stumble over something that is interesting or good for us.
That’s why the randomness of HN is so appealing. 95% is useless for one specific person, but once in a while that person stumbles upon a gem that is exactly right for them.
And sometimes, it is the right info but not the right time and they might come back to you later to ask more, although this rarely happens.
Make a website for people that are already interested in the topic. The rest of your effort should be spend just mentioning the sheer existence of your topic. Don’t lecture anyone. That is enough.
OP talks for 10 minutes about SRS. Yes, nobody gives a shit. Instead say: I use Anki, because it helps me to learn XYZ a lot faster. Then change the topic. Not mentioning it at all is bad, because it robs the other person of the chance that this is the gem they actually need right now.
One of the things that's always thrown me off about the LessWrong community (I assume this article is adjacent to it because of the mention of Yudkowsky and the "I too have cognitive biases" confession) is that members supposedly strive to be aware of their own biases, but often seem extremely hostile to people with differing opinions. For instance, the reaction this article to the author's friends disinterest isn't for the author to question their own beliefs, but to complain about their friends not seeing the truth.
I'm often left with the impression that discussion of biases for many ironically becomes a way to reinforce biases. I've even seen people argue as much - "I'm aware of my biases, and you're not, which is why I'm correct, and you're wrong."
I'm often left with the impression that discussion of biases for many ironically becomes a way to reinforce biases. I've even seen people argue as much - "I'm aware of my biases, and you're not, which is why I'm correct, and you're wrong."
The first link details how it's easy to fall into the trap of preaching the gospel to others and even making them feel bad about themselves: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6NvbSwuSAooQxxf7f/beware-of-...
I think maybe you conflate complaining with hostility. Humans, even rational ones, complain when things go counter to their expectations. It's normal human behaviour, and everyone, everyone does it. It's so universal and basic, an AI would probably not be complete without it.
I think maybe you conflate complaining with hostility. Humans, even rational ones, complain when things go counter to their expectations. It's normal human behaviour, and everyone, everyone does it. It's so universal and basic, an AI would probably not be complete without it.
There's lots of useful things, and everybody is into their own stuff. Sometimes it intersects with ones own interests, but most of the time you're on your own.
However... think about it like this:
If just one (1) of the dozens of people the author mentioned Anki to took it up and learned a whole new skill, their life would be changed. Thats pretty cool! And reward enough.
However... think about it like this:
If just one (1) of the dozens of people the author mentioned Anki to took it up and learned a whole new skill, their life would be changed. Thats pretty cool! And reward enough.
With respect to learning definitions of words for language alone, I wonder if reading books accompanied with a dictionary would be a more sustainable approach. I see two immediate comparative benefits
- Only very few have the temperament and external motivation to practice with SRS.
- Learning by reading texts reinforces vocabulary at exactly the right strength: you learn the more common words sooner.
- Only very few have the temperament and external motivation to practice with SRS.
- Learning by reading texts reinforces vocabulary at exactly the right strength: you learn the more common words sooner.
I've used this kind of software I wrote myself when I was preparing for University. The results were spectacular for the subjects where memorization was crucial. But frankly, using it for learning things like maths is a PITA. I found out I learn much better with traditional exercise books, comparing my answers with the key.
Taking Anki out of it, it's certainly challenging to be circumspect about the things you're enthusiastic about just not mattering either to anyone or just to the specific person you're droning in about it to. Likewise if someone asks, they might just be doing so because they know it's something you're enthusiastic about, and aren't looking for your lit review on the subject.
"Oh you skateboard? I was thinking of getting into that" is now met with a meager acknowledgement and nothing more. "Can you teach me?" is now met with "No", because people just don't really give a damn and they have other stuff going on that they might not realize in the moment. Replace skateboarding with programming or anything else and you have feigned interest, so it's best to turn it around and ask them what they're into.
Bringing Anki back into it for a second, I did not have any success with Anki software or really any software. It just did not help me beyond giving me access to long lists of words. Instead, SR with written flash cards and questions seems like night and day.
"Oh you skateboard? I was thinking of getting into that" is now met with a meager acknowledgement and nothing more. "Can you teach me?" is now met with "No", because people just don't really give a damn and they have other stuff going on that they might not realize in the moment. Replace skateboarding with programming or anything else and you have feigned interest, so it's best to turn it around and ask them what they're into.
Bringing Anki back into it for a second, I did not have any success with Anki software or really any software. It just did not help me beyond giving me access to long lists of words. Instead, SR with written flash cards and questions seems like night and day.
I can't think how I would use this in a software development sense. Coding katas come close to this and a useful but I'm not sure flash cards would do the same.
Maybe it would be handy to memorize a libraries API but then if I use something enough that memorization would be useful I'll learn it by way of using it.