Ask HN: Is it time to quit tech industry?
65 comments
13 years is a good stint. I don't know where in the industry you worked, but you could try a different segment.
If you did adtech, work in web consulting.
If you worked at a consulting shop, apply at product companies.
If you worked at a bigco, work at a startup.
If you worked in gaming, work at an ecommerce company.
Also, realize that there are a lot of related occupations: tech trainer, product manager, devops consultant, etc. These all may be worth looking at to refresh your joy around the work. (I wrote about this here: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2020/10/05/how-to-make-a-... )
I took a sabbatical myself early in my career and found myself pulled back into tech (reading tech articles for fun, for example). That was my clue that I enjoyed it enough to return--if I'm reading about it for fun, must like it.
So, what are you reading for fun?
If you did adtech, work in web consulting.
If you worked at a consulting shop, apply at product companies.
If you worked at a bigco, work at a startup.
If you worked in gaming, work at an ecommerce company.
Also, realize that there are a lot of related occupations: tech trainer, product manager, devops consultant, etc. These all may be worth looking at to refresh your joy around the work. (I wrote about this here: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2020/10/05/how-to-make-a-... )
I took a sabbatical myself early in my career and found myself pulled back into tech (reading tech articles for fun, for example). That was my clue that I enjoyed it enough to return--if I'm reading about it for fun, must like it.
So, what are you reading for fun?
Maybe, but don't give up your day job. Financial health and personal health are both important.
I've been programming for 43 years (since I was kid) and worked as a programmer for about 20 years. In the last 17 years, I've seen the switch from exploration, creativity, open-ended thinking to this new thing called "tech." I am not a "tech." I guess I've quit tech, and won't become a "tech." I miss working as a programmer - I had pretty good jobs. Beware as workplaces in other industries can be much more toxic.
From what I gather, no one is hiring programmers: "the programming part is easy", "solo programmers need not apply", "scrum", buzzwords, horrible marketing, bad management, and worse. I have a day job not in "tech", and not as a programmer. On the side, I program for me. I read and post what's interesting to me on Hacker News and other programming sites.
I've been programming for 43 years (since I was kid) and worked as a programmer for about 20 years. In the last 17 years, I've seen the switch from exploration, creativity, open-ended thinking to this new thing called "tech." I am not a "tech." I guess I've quit tech, and won't become a "tech." I miss working as a programmer - I had pretty good jobs. Beware as workplaces in other industries can be much more toxic.
From what I gather, no one is hiring programmers: "the programming part is easy", "solo programmers need not apply", "scrum", buzzwords, horrible marketing, bad management, and worse. I have a day job not in "tech", and not as a programmer. On the side, I program for me. I read and post what's interesting to me on Hacker News and other programming sites.
Oh wow, it's so great to read this because it validates that I'm not crazy.
I've been programming professionally for 15 years, but started as a kid too.
I feel like this pivot you're talking about happened somewhere in the beginning of my career. I never jumped on the bandwagon and I feel increasingly miserable as the years go by.
You'd have heard 9 year old me saying he wanted to be a programmer. I went to university to study Computer Science because I love computing and computers and solving problems with them. I like writing programs that solve problems for people, and I like making existing programs better by fixing bugs, refactoring them to make them easier to work on, etc. That's what I signed up for when I started my career.
The shift to the cloud sent everything to hell. Like I've said, I've been miserable for years now. I've spent the past week struggling to plumb shit on AWS and Kubernetes. Actual programming was maybe 10% of the task I'm working on, and it was just connecting library A to library B, basically.
I've been programming professionally for 15 years, but started as a kid too.
I feel like this pivot you're talking about happened somewhere in the beginning of my career. I never jumped on the bandwagon and I feel increasingly miserable as the years go by.
You'd have heard 9 year old me saying he wanted to be a programmer. I went to university to study Computer Science because I love computing and computers and solving problems with them. I like writing programs that solve problems for people, and I like making existing programs better by fixing bugs, refactoring them to make them easier to work on, etc. That's what I signed up for when I started my career.
The shift to the cloud sent everything to hell. Like I've said, I've been miserable for years now. I've spent the past week struggling to plumb shit on AWS and Kubernetes. Actual programming was maybe 10% of the task I'm working on, and it was just connecting library A to library B, basically.
This is close to how I feel these days too, except for different terms.
These days I generally consider myself a "hacker". Using that word, it makes perfect sense to me why I can't stand the industry and see no place for myself in it.
Additionally it seems that that technology is getting much more difficult for hackers (mind you im not using the hacker in the colloquial malicious sense, but insuppose the definitions overlap at time) and so I find myself drawn towards "hacking" in other fields where it traditionally has been a lot more difficult to do so, but is becoming less so.
I occasionally get around to hacking with neat things nowadays, but most of the time I'm too mentally exhausted.
These days I generally consider myself a "hacker". Using that word, it makes perfect sense to me why I can't stand the industry and see no place for myself in it.
Additionally it seems that that technology is getting much more difficult for hackers (mind you im not using the hacker in the colloquial malicious sense, but insuppose the definitions overlap at time) and so I find myself drawn towards "hacking" in other fields where it traditionally has been a lot more difficult to do so, but is becoming less so.
I occasionally get around to hacking with neat things nowadays, but most of the time I'm too mentally exhausted.
This is a personal question so you have to provide more context here. If you quit tech industry, what would you like to do after that ? Are you financially stable/independent to take a risk and leave you "faang" money ?
I am in a similar position. Turned 41 years old. New "tech" that goes away in a few years is getting tiresome. I moved from Dev to DevOps for a change of pace, but it made things worse in a way.
I've debated management, but being in meetings all day sounds worse...
I've debated management, but being in meetings all day sounds worse...
If you reframed your perception to "It is literally just for a paycheck", do you think your perception of your job would improve?
If you have enough savings to quit tech and do other stuff for a while, why not? Or, if you have enough savings/confidence to just take a year off and fuck around, why not? I might suggest riding out your current job/role until you have the ability to travel without the concern of covid, but also recognize that might be quite a while.
My #1 rule is, if you're so miserable that you're struggling to get out of bed in the morning, quit pretty much instantly. Your wellbeing is worth more. If you're not at that point, though, it might be worthwhile to play around with your way of thinking and finding any cognitive traps you have lying around.
If you have enough savings to quit tech and do other stuff for a while, why not? Or, if you have enough savings/confidence to just take a year off and fuck around, why not? I might suggest riding out your current job/role until you have the ability to travel without the concern of covid, but also recognize that might be quite a while.
My #1 rule is, if you're so miserable that you're struggling to get out of bed in the morning, quit pretty much instantly. Your wellbeing is worth more. If you're not at that point, though, it might be worthwhile to play around with your way of thinking and finding any cognitive traps you have lying around.
"My #1 rule is, if you're so miserable that you're struggling to get out of bed in the morning, quit pretty much instantly."
I have been in this situation many times, and every time, quitting was an excellent decision. It's like people in abusive relationships; everyone wonders why they don't quit but they're too deep into it to see what's wrong.
I have worked 60-80 hour weeks, currently with a newborn baby and dealing with a pandemic. This may seem like a high level of stress but it's nowhere near as bad as it would sound. The team is hardworking and understanding. It feels like something you do with comrades rather than just a paycheck.
I have been in this situation many times, and every time, quitting was an excellent decision. It's like people in abusive relationships; everyone wonders why they don't quit but they're too deep into it to see what's wrong.
I have worked 60-80 hour weeks, currently with a newborn baby and dealing with a pandemic. This may seem like a high level of stress but it's nowhere near as bad as it would sound. The team is hardworking and understanding. It feels like something you do with comrades rather than just a paycheck.
This post resonated with me. I hope someone else has good advice around this. I'm in a similar situation. I used to love this field so much but I'm finding myself disenchanted with it this year.
Last year I started a company that crashed and burned. That was a pretty painful process but one that was ultimately worth it I think. I'm still kind of recovering from it but I'll try it again and don't feel too burned out in that respect.
When I came back to the field after the failure of the company I found that I had an even easier time finding jobs. Higher paying jobs even. But I've also found that I don't enjoy the work. It's more "senior" and just so many more meetings and so much less doing anything that feels useful or interesting.
I've thought about trying to step back down to more technical and fun roles. That might wind up being a money hit but might actually be worth it at this point if I can go back to writing code.
I've also thought about trying to move into a different field. VR is one that is really compelling to me. It's still part of "tech" but feels new and untamed in the way that tech used to. This field used to feel like blazing a trail and lately it has felt more like an arbitrary part of business, like accounting or something. Even if my perspective is warped and it hasn't happened yet - it's bound to happen someday. It's not even a bad thing. But what I loved about this field in the early days was the sense of adventure and rebellion. Nobody knew what was going on and it felt like there was a lot of opportunity for creativity. Now it feels more like implementing a bunch of boring standards made up by other people.
I feel jaded about it and I've considered that might be the issue too. I came off the biggest failure of my life into covid when I thought I was going to be taking 2020 to get back to normal and regroup. It could be that this year just kind of sucks and I'll go back to loving tech when the world gets back to normal a bit.
Hard to say. In any case I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for anybody that has advice or has been through a similar experience.
Last year I started a company that crashed and burned. That was a pretty painful process but one that was ultimately worth it I think. I'm still kind of recovering from it but I'll try it again and don't feel too burned out in that respect.
When I came back to the field after the failure of the company I found that I had an even easier time finding jobs. Higher paying jobs even. But I've also found that I don't enjoy the work. It's more "senior" and just so many more meetings and so much less doing anything that feels useful or interesting.
I've thought about trying to step back down to more technical and fun roles. That might wind up being a money hit but might actually be worth it at this point if I can go back to writing code.
I've also thought about trying to move into a different field. VR is one that is really compelling to me. It's still part of "tech" but feels new and untamed in the way that tech used to. This field used to feel like blazing a trail and lately it has felt more like an arbitrary part of business, like accounting or something. Even if my perspective is warped and it hasn't happened yet - it's bound to happen someday. It's not even a bad thing. But what I loved about this field in the early days was the sense of adventure and rebellion. Nobody knew what was going on and it felt like there was a lot of opportunity for creativity. Now it feels more like implementing a bunch of boring standards made up by other people.
I feel jaded about it and I've considered that might be the issue too. I came off the biggest failure of my life into covid when I thought I was going to be taking 2020 to get back to normal and regroup. It could be that this year just kind of sucks and I'll go back to loving tech when the world gets back to normal a bit.
Hard to say. In any case I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for anybody that has advice or has been through a similar experience.
Nope, not time to quit if you still need to earn a living. You've invested 13+ years into a career and if you aren't financially independent and don't have a backup job then you do still need to pay bills, right?
For an interesting perspective on another career - there is a YT channel called the handyman. He talks a lot about how he isn't choosing the light fixture to install and has opinions on it but is just getting paid, decently, to install it.
Maybe contracting is more for you at this time. Get paid to come in and code stuff, solve problems and go home. Move onto the next job. Maybe you'll discover some idea along the way that could be kindle into your own project.
For an interesting perspective on another career - there is a YT channel called the handyman. He talks a lot about how he isn't choosing the light fixture to install and has opinions on it but is just getting paid, decently, to install it.
Maybe contracting is more for you at this time. Get paid to come in and code stuff, solve problems and go home. Move onto the next job. Maybe you'll discover some idea along the way that could be kindle into your own project.
Contracting is a beast of its own and certainly has downsides, especially if you need to make rent next month.
If you have a stable job and want to go the contracting route, I suggest doing it on the side to learn the basics of marketing yourself and determining if you like aspects of the client relationships.
"How do I contract successfully" is a solved problem, but a lot of folks (myself included!) don't start learning the skill until they don't have a job. That limits options and increases the stress. Some basic strategizing can pay off in a big way, both financially and in terms of minimizing your personal stress, if you choose that route.
If you have a stable job and want to go the contracting route, I suggest doing it on the side to learn the basics of marketing yourself and determining if you like aspects of the client relationships.
"How do I contract successfully" is a solved problem, but a lot of folks (myself included!) don't start learning the skill until they don't have a job. That limits options and increases the stress. Some basic strategizing can pay off in a big way, both financially and in terms of minimizing your personal stress, if you choose that route.
Contracting could be even worse. Usually, contractors are hired to deal with stuff nobody else (normal employees) wants to deal with.
I've never done it so I could be wrong, but what appeals to me (at least in theory) about contracting is that there's no emotional investment involved.
When you're an FTE there's an expectation that you're invested in the stuff you build and that you care about it and think about it and how to make it better. I find that exhausting, because most jobs will have you working on things you don't particularly care about because you're not a user of the product, or there's no societal impact stemming from the work you do.
So I job where I could put in 8h a day doing whatever tasks are handed to me, and nothing else, sounds perfect.
When you're an FTE there's an expectation that you're invested in the stuff you build and that you care about it and think about it and how to make it better. I find that exhausting, because most jobs will have you working on things you don't particularly care about because you're not a user of the product, or there's no societal impact stemming from the work you do.
So I job where I could put in 8h a day doing whatever tasks are handed to me, and nothing else, sounds perfect.
What if you just stay as IC and not managing? I think you'll be happier.
Also pursue hobbies that produce. Not just travels or media binging. Travels are still consumption in a way. True fulfillment comes from creation. Maybe learn to paint, cook, or make music.
Also pursue hobbies that produce. Not just travels or media binging. Travels are still consumption in a way. True fulfillment comes from creation. Maybe learn to paint, cook, or make music.
The reasons you give around "keeping up with new developments, new technologies, ...lack of creativity", lead me to believe it isn't the job that you dislike, it's the environment you're in.
I have a friend who was in a very similar situation to you and he just kept sticking with it year after year. He talked about going back to school and finding a new career, but it was always just easier to keep doing dev work, and it was well paid. He hated the tech stack he was working on (particularly everything javascript/typescript), didn't see how his contribution was meaningful, etc etc.
He was ready to cash it all in again when he found a start-up that he really loved the product. He had a big say in the initial tech stack, and had wanted to dive into Rust. He was enjoying learning about hardware, etc etc. After a few months, he realized that Rust was a great language, but he was getting into more of the "new technologies" and it was a bit of a shiny thing, so he went back to C++. He doesn't care about the "technologies" so much as he cares about the problem he's solving for customers, and how that is implemented.
You mention you "don't see the value...beyond the paycheck.", well, that's the value. Can you find something where you love the problem that you're solving for the customer, and hopefully love the product as well. Something where you can see the impact your having on the customers (and maybe even the world).
I know it may seem all "we're changing the world" start-upy, but some people really are, and it isn't only about the money. From my experience, SF is full of the "we're changing the world" people with no real reason behind it. The less startup focused hubs I think have more to offer because they're not so caught up in the bubble.
Just my two cents, hope it helps.
I have a friend who was in a very similar situation to you and he just kept sticking with it year after year. He talked about going back to school and finding a new career, but it was always just easier to keep doing dev work, and it was well paid. He hated the tech stack he was working on (particularly everything javascript/typescript), didn't see how his contribution was meaningful, etc etc.
He was ready to cash it all in again when he found a start-up that he really loved the product. He had a big say in the initial tech stack, and had wanted to dive into Rust. He was enjoying learning about hardware, etc etc. After a few months, he realized that Rust was a great language, but he was getting into more of the "new technologies" and it was a bit of a shiny thing, so he went back to C++. He doesn't care about the "technologies" so much as he cares about the problem he's solving for customers, and how that is implemented.
You mention you "don't see the value...beyond the paycheck.", well, that's the value. Can you find something where you love the problem that you're solving for the customer, and hopefully love the product as well. Something where you can see the impact your having on the customers (and maybe even the world).
I know it may seem all "we're changing the world" start-upy, but some people really are, and it isn't only about the money. From my experience, SF is full of the "we're changing the world" people with no real reason behind it. The less startup focused hubs I think have more to offer because they're not so caught up in the bubble.
Just my two cents, hope it helps.
I feel like I'm in your friend's position right now. I absolutely hate working on services. Hate having to muck around with AWS and Kubernetes. I like writing code, period (that excludes Terraform and YAML in my definition). I also have an interest (though nil actual experience) in embedded systems. It's what I play with in my free time to keep my brain working and not going totally insane.
I stay because the company where I work at pays me a handsome salary, RSUs, and has great benefits. Somehow my team likes me. Somehow I made it to a high position... though I suspect I've been promoted to the level of my incompetence and the next perf review won't be great.
The problem is that I'm so burned out right now that no job at all sounds appealing.
I stay because the company where I work at pays me a handsome salary, RSUs, and has great benefits. Somehow my team likes me. Somehow I made it to a high position... though I suspect I've been promoted to the level of my incompetence and the next perf review won't be great.
The problem is that I'm so burned out right now that no job at all sounds appealing.
Yup, super similar situation as my friend. He was actually interviewing with some interesting companies, but part of the problem, even if they had a good tech stack, was he'd be a small cog in a big wheel.
That's one of the appeals of some startups, you're making an impact, as long as you love the problem they're solving, and think they'll be "successful", whatever that means to you.
That's one of the appeals of some startups, you're making an impact, as long as you love the problem they're solving, and think they'll be "successful", whatever that means to you.
You know, I actually wouldn't mind being a small cog if I could exercise the skills I consider to be my strengths.
What I'm fed up with is being given task after task where I have to learn whole new technologies each time, with not enough time to learn and do a decent job. It makes me feel incompetent and useless.
What I'm fed up with is being given task after task where I have to learn whole new technologies each time, with not enough time to learn and do a decent job. It makes me feel incompetent and useless.
Why not start your own thing on the side then? From any digital business, to a website /app /micro-saas whatever you like?
Being your own boss is a pretty awesome motivator.
Being your own boss is a pretty awesome motivator.
>Is it time to quit tech?
>I have taken some time off work recently to travel and unwind.
No. Go fully remote, travel and see out the rest of your career.
Software dev has about 10 years left as a viable career until it's as common as, and remunerated in line with, store cashier positions. You may as well ride out the crest of the wave.
>I have taken some time off work recently to travel and unwind.
No. Go fully remote, travel and see out the rest of your career.
Software dev has about 10 years left as a viable career until it's as common as, and remunerated in line with, store cashier positions. You may as well ride out the crest of the wave.
This is likely an over exaggeration, but software jobs will go the way of ibanking or law. Still highly paid, but not as lucrative as it is today.
I disagree. Law has significant barriers to entry and even after getting through qualification, your base credentials won't offer much mobility in terms of being able to move around to practice.
There aren't, to my knowledge, 12 week bootcamps for law out of which you can start practising in the field.
There aren't, to my knowledge, law schools popping up daily in India offering people courses with relatively low entry requirements, from which they can move to the US and start practising as a lawyer.
There aren't, to my knowledge, D&I proponents installed into law companies who spend their time fighting against the idea of hiring bars and requirements for the positions within the company. There aren't internal advocates saying to drop the requirement for a law degree for a legal job in the name of boosting diversity visibility.
The same can't be said about the overwhelming majority of tech jobs, but then tech workers have done literally nothing in the name of collectively protecting their profession so it's at least partially their own fault.
There aren't, to my knowledge, 12 week bootcamps for law out of which you can start practising in the field.
There aren't, to my knowledge, law schools popping up daily in India offering people courses with relatively low entry requirements, from which they can move to the US and start practising as a lawyer.
There aren't, to my knowledge, D&I proponents installed into law companies who spend their time fighting against the idea of hiring bars and requirements for the positions within the company. There aren't internal advocates saying to drop the requirement for a law degree for a legal job in the name of boosting diversity visibility.
The same can't be said about the overwhelming majority of tech jobs, but then tech workers have done literally nothing in the name of collectively protecting their profession so it's at least partially their own fault.
Law is especially depressing to look at.
Could you give some more detail? I’m not familiar with the legal landscape.
Essentially after the great recession graduates starting flocking to traditional 'secure' careers. For Arts students there weren't many options, so a ton of English, History etc grads moved into law as it was seen as a secure career. This lead to an over supply which skewed salaries into a heavy bimodal distribution. The top lawyers still get the big bucks but for the average lawyer it's not particularly great anymore. In the UK I here £30-35k bandied about outside of London. Not a bad wage by any means but considering the hours and education required it's no longer the secure path to a middle class lifestyle that it was.
Strong bi-modal distribution [0]
[0] https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
[0] https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
Can you elaborate on why you think in 10 years it won’t be a viable career or remunerated accordingly?
I don’t think we will be needing as many lower-skill positions like building CRUD apps, but I don’t see the hard software engineering jobs becoming as common as a cashier position and driving salaries down.
I don’t think we will be needing as many lower-skill positions like building CRUD apps, but I don’t see the hard software engineering jobs becoming as common as a cashier position and driving salaries down.
many people around the globe entering the market via remote work or willing to relocate anywhere + automation, frameworks or pre made template solutions
as with every new and lucrative industry, people eventually figure out how to streamline it
I wonder whats the next gold rush? astronauts? space colonist/miners? :)
as with every new and lucrative industry, people eventually figure out how to streamline it
I wonder whats the next gold rush? astronauts? space colonist/miners? :)
Agreed. A couple of expansions:
- Tech is seen as the easiest way to the middle class in many emerging economies, notably India and China. Tech orientated third level institutions are an industry of their own in India due to the sheer level of demand for it.
- Skilled immigration is one of the most favoured tools of most globalist western governments in their fight to destroy the middle class.
- Remote work will continue to grow, the pains associated with async work and time differences will be mitigated against, hence a (more) global labour pool for the same jobs. Why pay an American dev $100k plus benefits when I can readily pay a Chilean dev $20k with fewer, if any, benefits.
Tech companies have been clamouring for the above for at least a decade now and we're really starting to see strides being made in it.
I should note that the 10 years I mentioned above was an optimistic estimate.
- Tech is seen as the easiest way to the middle class in many emerging economies, notably India and China. Tech orientated third level institutions are an industry of their own in India due to the sheer level of demand for it.
- Skilled immigration is one of the most favoured tools of most globalist western governments in their fight to destroy the middle class.
- Remote work will continue to grow, the pains associated with async work and time differences will be mitigated against, hence a (more) global labour pool for the same jobs. Why pay an American dev $100k plus benefits when I can readily pay a Chilean dev $20k with fewer, if any, benefits.
Tech companies have been clamouring for the above for at least a decade now and we're really starting to see strides being made in it.
I should note that the 10 years I mentioned above was an optimistic estimate.
Yes, I'd recommend building something of your own.
It feels to me like you just don't enjoy big companies. The bigger the company, the more crap you'll be required to pass through. It's not just tech related, any office job has the same.
Politics, indoctrination, favouritism, corruption, boring tasks.
Don't get me wrong, some small companies can be hell as well, if the founders / first hires are not great. But the bigger the company the higher the chance of finding some of those people who will create a bad environment.
It's often done in good faith, sometimes for personal gain.
Starting your own company will give you the freedom to either run solo or hire people you like, giving you the creative freedom you long for. I wouldn't recommend going the startup-raise-millions-burn-millions route, chances of success are low and it's a stressful ride. Check out the video Bootstrapping Side Projects To Profit by Pieter Levels.
It feels to me like you just don't enjoy big companies. The bigger the company, the more crap you'll be required to pass through. It's not just tech related, any office job has the same.
Politics, indoctrination, favouritism, corruption, boring tasks.
Don't get me wrong, some small companies can be hell as well, if the founders / first hires are not great. But the bigger the company the higher the chance of finding some of those people who will create a bad environment.
It's often done in good faith, sometimes for personal gain.
Starting your own company will give you the freedom to either run solo or hire people you like, giving you the creative freedom you long for. I wouldn't recommend going the startup-raise-millions-burn-millions route, chances of success are low and it's a stressful ride. Check out the video Bootstrapping Side Projects To Profit by Pieter Levels.
I hear that founding a company non-solo is analogous to having children, in the sense that it is a commitment to making a space for others to act with creative freedom [0]. That's not to say there aren't people who like the challenges that brings; maybe OP is one of them. But promising a startup offers 'creative freedom' sounds more like ad copy than the things I hear (stocking the sales funnel, negotiating payment, sifting through resumes).
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1zP6yJjc1o
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1zP6yJjc1o
Go to the fundamentals, they are limitless and do not change very often.
Mathematics, science, comp sci hard problems, music, logic and philosophy. Classical drawing, writing, ect.
Look back to untapped projects from the 80s and early 2000s.
Mathematics, science, comp sci hard problems, music, logic and philosophy. Classical drawing, writing, ect.
Look back to untapped projects from the 80s and early 2000s.
DSA and competitive programming can be quite engaging as well but doing it for whiteboarding and cracking interviews is horrible.
Try quitting and applying your knowledge to a separate field with significant growth trajectory and a lot of interesting subjects to learn about, such as industrial automation. Sometimes you just need to get back in touch with the curiosity and sense of challenge and wonder that goes with being a complete newbie in a new discipline. We are lucky that having a systems perspective and algorithmic analytical capacity means we transfer well to numerous complex disciplines. Many established fabrication operations are now seeking people from a computing background to assist with systems integration, operations planning and business-level investment trajectories. Get in there, learn and be valued. Feel free to email me for some pointers.
I think that there's some extent to which the mere fact that something is your job drains the motivation from it. In my day job, I work on some world-changing technology that will massively improve the state of security; I see applications for it everywhere. I have nearly complete control over the technical aspects of the project, from language (Rust) to framework to code style, etc. I enjoy working with my colleagues, and we all feel strong loyalty to each other. It's the best work situation I could hope for, and I plan to stay there for the foreseeable future.
And yet, I somehow find continuing to work on it to be a bit of a slog. At the end of the day, I breathe a sigh of relief and crack open my personal project, which is a point of sale system written in COBOL on an AS/400. This, somehow, sparks joy.
Yes, there are aspects that can make a day job more or less pleasant. Keeping up with the churn in faddish sectors is exhausting, and I'm glad that I've been able to avoid touching the web in my career. Unrealistic deadlines are a sure-fire trip to burnout for me. Constantly putting out fires gets demoralizing.
So, you can control how much your day job bothers you, and even like it, but it's never going to have the same joy that you feel when you're working for yourself, with nobody to answer to. I still think it's a better career track for me than any of the alternatives though.
And yet, I somehow find continuing to work on it to be a bit of a slog. At the end of the day, I breathe a sigh of relief and crack open my personal project, which is a point of sale system written in COBOL on an AS/400. This, somehow, sparks joy.
Yes, there are aspects that can make a day job more or less pleasant. Keeping up with the churn in faddish sectors is exhausting, and I'm glad that I've been able to avoid touching the web in my career. Unrealistic deadlines are a sure-fire trip to burnout for me. Constantly putting out fires gets demoralizing.
So, you can control how much your day job bothers you, and even like it, but it's never going to have the same joy that you feel when you're working for yourself, with nobody to answer to. I still think it's a better career track for me than any of the alternatives though.
Would love to know more about your point of sales system.
A few years ago, I wrote https://github.com/0x20/backtab to sell drinks at the local hackerspace; it's worked well so far, and the backend has a fairly simple REST interface.
Since then, my flatmate got me interested in the AS/400 hobbyist community, and before long I had found myself the proud owner of an IBM Power 750 Express server running IBM i, with no idea what to do with it. I've wanted to use COBOL for a real project for a while, and porting the backend seemed like a fine excuse :-D
It's been slow going because the IBM docs are extremely dense, but the project so far has convinced me that if IBM i were available to hobbyists at a reasonable price, it would be a much bigger player in the market. Building simple CRUD-style apps is trivial, with the "GUI" design being almost VB-levels of easy.
Since then, my flatmate got me interested in the AS/400 hobbyist community, and before long I had found myself the proud owner of an IBM Power 750 Express server running IBM i, with no idea what to do with it. I've wanted to use COBOL for a real project for a while, and porting the backend seemed like a fine excuse :-D
It's been slow going because the IBM docs are extremely dense, but the project so far has convinced me that if IBM i were available to hobbyists at a reasonable price, it would be a much bigger player in the market. Building simple CRUD-style apps is trivial, with the "GUI" design being almost VB-levels of easy.
That's pretty cool.
I'd not have thought it would be easy. But that'll be a very neat project.
Would love love to follow it if you ever decide to make it public.
I'd not have thought it would be easy. But that'll be a very neat project.
Would love love to follow it if you ever decide to make it public.
Have you thought of being a startup ceo?
I've moved inside a business as the solo internal Dev. It has it challenges but I'm much happier. I'm no longer building software for hire I'm solving business problems with software. The management layer of having to fill out time sheets to every quarter hour is gone. Spending hours coming up with requirements docs no one reads is gone. Unrealistic deadlines still exists but they are more realistic. It's so much better. Maybe a change in roles would help
With you 100%. Things have gotten... weird... in the past 8yrs or so. 13 yrs as a SWE here. Self taught in tech, programming since I was a freshmen in highschool, majored in business in my undergrad but stuck with tech for a career. What's next is the big question. I enjoyed my last gig, 4 years at a startup, massively more than I do now at at an 'elite' tech company where I'm 5 yrs in. It's just so fucking annoying and tedious. The only problem is I need to stick it out for 5 more years or so to be financially independent and work for myself. What kills me is the knowledge that if I played the game properly, I could already be there. Now, I have to decide on if I throw away 5 years, or eject and take the risk to do my own thing now. I'm giving it one more year to make that decision. At this point, I feel like it will come down to a coin flip, where I will pray for whatever side is the eject button while the coin is mid air.
What's your plan if you quit tech?
What's your plan if you quit tech?
Probably travel for a while, take care of those bucket list items, and then figure it out. My creativity is completely dead from working in big tech (see my user name) -- it will take some time for it to come back and then have a sprouting of various ideas.
I'm really not in a place to plan beyond that right now.
I'm really not in a place to plan beyond that right now.
> What kills me is the knowledge that if I played the game properly, I could already be there
I'm curious, what did you mean by playing the game properly?
I'm curious, what did you mean by playing the game properly?
I didn't know how well you could be paid as a software engineer, and I didn't try to maximize compensation in any way.
I did a masters of comp sci in my late 20s, and instead of going for FAANG internships, I took a role that was similar to what I was doing previously (Dev Infra/DevOps). I was stubborn and thought "Why would I be an intern? I was managing two teams at my last job", but didn't realize that FAANG interns actually made equal or more money than I did, and an entry level FAANG offer was much higher than the role I had accepted. I just didn't know, and I had nobody helping me.
So, here I am, mid-30s, making less than my peers at a trading company for the same work because I didn't come from FAANG. This is actually a big reason I'm ready to quit tech. It just doesn't seem worth it. A little over a year ago, I was hiring someone, and the internal recruiter slipped up on a phone call with me while talking about putting together an offer. They mentioned what an indirect report of mine made as a comparison. His base was more than my total comp. After that, I pretty much checked out for a year and did the bare minimum.
At this point, the only way for me to increase my comp is to move companies, likely to FAANG, and from what I hear, I'll be 'down-leveled' coming from outside of FAANG, and in a similar position I'm in now. At most non-FAANG companies, my next comp package will be driven off of my current one, so I'm pretty boned. It feels like the only option is to get competing offers from multiple top-tier companies, which I just don't have time for. My day job is already super draining, so I'm not sure how I'll have time to prep for interviews to the level that will get me those multiple offers.
That's a lot of text to say I'm underpaid, and have been for most of my career because I didn't know what I should be getting paid.
I did a masters of comp sci in my late 20s, and instead of going for FAANG internships, I took a role that was similar to what I was doing previously (Dev Infra/DevOps). I was stubborn and thought "Why would I be an intern? I was managing two teams at my last job", but didn't realize that FAANG interns actually made equal or more money than I did, and an entry level FAANG offer was much higher than the role I had accepted. I just didn't know, and I had nobody helping me.
So, here I am, mid-30s, making less than my peers at a trading company for the same work because I didn't come from FAANG. This is actually a big reason I'm ready to quit tech. It just doesn't seem worth it. A little over a year ago, I was hiring someone, and the internal recruiter slipped up on a phone call with me while talking about putting together an offer. They mentioned what an indirect report of mine made as a comparison. His base was more than my total comp. After that, I pretty much checked out for a year and did the bare minimum.
At this point, the only way for me to increase my comp is to move companies, likely to FAANG, and from what I hear, I'll be 'down-leveled' coming from outside of FAANG, and in a similar position I'm in now. At most non-FAANG companies, my next comp package will be driven off of my current one, so I'm pretty boned. It feels like the only option is to get competing offers from multiple top-tier companies, which I just don't have time for. My day job is already super draining, so I'm not sure how I'll have time to prep for interviews to the level that will get me those multiple offers.
That's a lot of text to say I'm underpaid, and have been for most of my career because I didn't know what I should be getting paid.
I'm guessing he means office politics. That's the way I feel anyways - if I had participated in politics and the games the company plays rather than just be the best technical person I could, then I would be much better off. I know a guy that started a year after me. He's a manager now (3-4 promos), making at least $30k more than me, while I'm just a midlevel (1 promo).
There's a lot to that, but I'm actually half decent at the politics. I held a fairly senior role previously, and still play the game pretty well. I'm just underpaid and pissed off about it, to the point that it effects my performance.
Yeah, similar to your pay comment, I've become disillusioned by the company screwing me over and passing me over. I consider salary/raise/promo negotiations to be part of the politics and games. What else would you say is the root cause of you being underpaid?
If you retire after 18 years, compared to the average dev worldwide, that’s amazing. I’d be happy with 30.
Exactly, I can't really be all that upset. I'm still really well off, and do make more than the average developer. It's just frustrating.
Also, I don't ever plan on retiring. I'll still have to work, I'll just have enough to where I can work for myself and in a less demanding type of role. I'll probably pick up consulting contracts, and maybe turn that into a business.
Edit: About 50% of my investments were building a small business on the side in my early 20s that I sold, and some real estate. This isn't all coming from tech job income.
Also, I don't ever plan on retiring. I'll still have to work, I'll just have enough to where I can work for myself and in a less demanding type of role. I'll probably pick up consulting contracts, and maybe turn that into a business.
Edit: About 50% of my investments were building a small business on the side in my early 20s that I sold, and some real estate. This isn't all coming from tech job income.
Oh cool nicely dome. I’d assume you made it through FAANG RSUs which seems like another world to me on another country!
Why not use your skills to help a budding startup? The ground floor is almost all dirt and plants, no fancy infrastructure or elevators yet, but it is also the best time to join in on the fun.
I think one problem we have is that every year there is some new shiny language that is hot. And companies and recruiters expect you to learn that language or stack which is ridiculous. Back when I was in college in the CS program I made a decision to focus on one language and only learn that and try to become good at using that language. I know my way around a few other languages but rarely use them. Like a carpenter who uses a few tools but has one favourite tool. I think that is OK, and nobody needs to learn more tools or stacks or languages. If people expect you to do that, just move on and find a company where you can do what you want with the tools you want. There is a lot of "you should be learning X or doing Y" and this just creates a lot of unnecessary stress and it's ridiculous to expect that. Lawyers only need to know a few tools, and nobody expects them to learn new tools every year. They just have to do the bare minimum to keep up. Same for a lot of other professions. I also think that recruiters and companies just use the "you need to know X" excuse to simply pay you less. So don't fall for it.
I'm with you.
Exact same feelings.
What makes it worse I'm currently in a country where the things that interest me have completely dried up work wise. My partner is a resident since birth and want's to stay, I've been here a few years, don't mind it but see it as a tech backwater.
Searching LinkedIn I get no jobs, searching overseas I'm getting hundreds. Local being Sydney Australia and overseas being London. Things that interest me being Scala, functional programing, work that isn't big data with large corporations trying to fuck over their customers and doing bad things collecting/using data and not crypto currency.
The only options I have is go in to management. Not my skill set at all and I'd be / am a terrible manager as dislike the politics being a blunt straight talking person. My partner also jokes saying I show autistic tendencies with my bluntness not being able to read the situation.
I can change careers then I'd be taking a 4x paycut at the least and that's after 3-4 years of re-training. I'd be struggling to live even though I have a modest life style driving a 10year old toyota corolla in a cheap rented house. I love manual labor I find it more re-warding than sat in endless meetings with people talking gibberish avoiding giving a straight answer or avoiding just getting the work done but i'd be silly to make the switch.
So right now I am stuck in a job I'm bored with, dealing with stuff I don't want to deal with for a company who staff are great and some of the best people i've worked with but owner is a text book psychopath, and the contracts dull all for the pay check.
Exact same feelings.
What makes it worse I'm currently in a country where the things that interest me have completely dried up work wise. My partner is a resident since birth and want's to stay, I've been here a few years, don't mind it but see it as a tech backwater.
Searching LinkedIn I get no jobs, searching overseas I'm getting hundreds. Local being Sydney Australia and overseas being London. Things that interest me being Scala, functional programing, work that isn't big data with large corporations trying to fuck over their customers and doing bad things collecting/using data and not crypto currency.
The only options I have is go in to management. Not my skill set at all and I'd be / am a terrible manager as dislike the politics being a blunt straight talking person. My partner also jokes saying I show autistic tendencies with my bluntness not being able to read the situation.
I can change careers then I'd be taking a 4x paycut at the least and that's after 3-4 years of re-training. I'd be struggling to live even though I have a modest life style driving a 10year old toyota corolla in a cheap rented house. I love manual labor I find it more re-warding than sat in endless meetings with people talking gibberish avoiding giving a straight answer or avoiding just getting the work done but i'd be silly to make the switch.
So right now I am stuck in a job I'm bored with, dealing with stuff I don't want to deal with for a company who staff are great and some of the best people i've worked with but owner is a text book psychopath, and the contracts dull all for the pay check.
> work that isn't big data with large corporations trying to fuck over their customers and doing bad things collecting/using data
This is something I'm struggling with as well. My company recently acquired another company that collects large amounts of user data. I'm planning to quit as soon as I have a reasonable idea about what to do next.
This is something I'm struggling with as well. My company recently acquired another company that collects large amounts of user data. I'm planning to quit as soon as I have a reasonable idea about what to do next.
I've had a very different experience here in Sydney. Though the pay is not as high as being in the US, it's decent. The lifestyle is good. The people are great. The tech punches above it's weight. There is a good focus on success through numbers, vs too much talk in the US (my impression anyway).
When you're talking about contracts, that makes me think you're working for a consultancy, or similar job shop. That's not where the good work is.
A "tech backwater"??? I'm a bit jaded because I worked at CSIRO, met a few Atlassian people before I moved here (and before it was big), saw friends and co-workers become early hires at Canva, OneLogin, Propeller, etc etc.
With the new tech we've been working on in the health space, my co-founder and I were surprised to discover one of the bigger BCI companies does all their R&D in Sydney! We commented on how big things are quietly being done in Sydney. But hey, our old boss invented WiFi, so we are looking at things through that lens.
Australia punches above it's weight for tech, perhaps you're just not in the right circles.
When you're talking about contracts, that makes me think you're working for a consultancy, or similar job shop. That's not where the good work is.
A "tech backwater"??? I'm a bit jaded because I worked at CSIRO, met a few Atlassian people before I moved here (and before it was big), saw friends and co-workers become early hires at Canva, OneLogin, Propeller, etc etc.
With the new tech we've been working on in the health space, my co-founder and I were surprised to discover one of the bigger BCI companies does all their R&D in Sydney! We commented on how big things are quietly being done in Sydney. But hey, our old boss invented WiFi, so we are looking at things through that lens.
Australia punches above it's weight for tech, perhaps you're just not in the right circles.
>Local being Sydney Australia and overseas being London
Is sydney that rough for programming jobs?
Is sydney that rough for programming jobs?
I think Sydney has plenty of programming jobs albeit not high paid ones like the states.
I think it has lots of (reasonable amount)
- Low end web stuff, i.e typical design agency work. HTML, CSS, Javascript, React. React is big, every frontend job wants React.
- Python. Mostly with big data doing stuff I don't want to do as shady, or the other big Python jobs are is deveops.
- Devops stuff, mostly Kubernetes. Almost every Kubernetes job I've done they hadn't needed Kubernetes and it's lead to massively over complicated infrastructure because everyone is doing Kubernetes not because Kubernetes was appropriate.
- Some Java but mainly knocking out Spring Boot apps for the big four (banks) or other tier one organizations. The type of large organizations that are so large they are dysfunctional.
I worked at Atlassian before the IPO and briefly after. Before the IPO it was pretty good, after IPO and they got a new CTO, my experience then changed as was on a great team that deliberately got broke up as even though we where labelled high performance the CTO banned the tech (language) we where using to standardize on Spring Boot as the CTO used Spring Boot previously at Gumtree. The glass doors posts at the time where telling. Pay was mediocre and they utilized a lot of 438 visas and I feel took advantage of overseas employees not being familiar with AU pay. Pay wasn't bad but was definatley on the lower end of Sydney rates and the CTO stood on stage saying they are quite pleased they will never pay as much as Google or other companies and still have people wanting to work for them as they are Atlassian.
Like I say, when you compare the job ads to somewhere like London, the type and variety of work is significantly different.
Right now I'd take a pay cut not to do big data, javascript or devops minus kubernetes unless they have a fleet of thousands of hosts working on a meaningful product.
- Low end web stuff, i.e typical design agency work. HTML, CSS, Javascript, React. React is big, every frontend job wants React.
- Python. Mostly with big data doing stuff I don't want to do as shady, or the other big Python jobs are is deveops.
- Devops stuff, mostly Kubernetes. Almost every Kubernetes job I've done they hadn't needed Kubernetes and it's lead to massively over complicated infrastructure because everyone is doing Kubernetes not because Kubernetes was appropriate.
- Some Java but mainly knocking out Spring Boot apps for the big four (banks) or other tier one organizations. The type of large organizations that are so large they are dysfunctional.
I worked at Atlassian before the IPO and briefly after. Before the IPO it was pretty good, after IPO and they got a new CTO, my experience then changed as was on a great team that deliberately got broke up as even though we where labelled high performance the CTO banned the tech (language) we where using to standardize on Spring Boot as the CTO used Spring Boot previously at Gumtree. The glass doors posts at the time where telling. Pay was mediocre and they utilized a lot of 438 visas and I feel took advantage of overseas employees not being familiar with AU pay. Pay wasn't bad but was definatley on the lower end of Sydney rates and the CTO stood on stage saying they are quite pleased they will never pay as much as Google or other companies and still have people wanting to work for them as they are Atlassian.
Like I say, when you compare the job ads to somewhere like London, the type and variety of work is significantly different.
Right now I'd take a pay cut not to do big data, javascript or devops minus kubernetes unless they have a fleet of thousands of hosts working on a meaningful product.
I agree with this. There is c# too but thats a parallel universe to the Java world. Feel free to get in touch via my profile btw. Nice to chat to Sydney base HNers!
Perhaps we need to put tech back to the ultimate goal: to keep us busy creating stuff just like art. In the end, progress is an illusion. An idea we put there to ignore what comes... death.
The question is never quit. If the decision is 'switch', it is a lot easier. You can be open-minded about opportunities. 'quit' does not mean anything. You don't quit your current job and then start search for a new one. When you are not happy with what you currently have, you will see anything not current job a help rope (see current election). It is going to lead to some bad decisions. It is important to see what you are doing from a different perspective, and seek values. Then be open minded to explore other things now. Once you find something you really love, you will switch without asking anyone here. Wish you the best.
You sound burned out. I had a familiar experience a few years ago. I was extremely tired of my job. It wasn't a hard job, but I didn't connect with my coworkers. Also, I didn't find interest in what I was doing. So, it was soul crushingly exhausting. Btw, I'm not putting all the blame on my environment. It was as much me, as it was them.
Anyways, I took some time off to travel and unwind like you. I remember the day I came back to work-- all the stress and horrible feelings I had immediately came back like I never took a break. So, I left.
I didn't quit the tech industry, but I took a year break from working. I was lucky, because I had a SO that could support me. So, I didn't have to worry about money too much. I still missed the stability of a job though. The break did a couple of things for me. It gave me time to develop new habits and it renewed my curiosity. I started tinkering again. It's really hard to care about new developments or technologies when you're drowning. However, if you're able to take care of yourself, I believe you'll find the curiosity that led you down to being a developer in the first place.
If you're a developer or if you're in tech. You're constantly learning. If you don't naturally like learning, it's going to be tough.
Anyways, I took some time off to travel and unwind like you. I remember the day I came back to work-- all the stress and horrible feelings I had immediately came back like I never took a break. So, I left.
I didn't quit the tech industry, but I took a year break from working. I was lucky, because I had a SO that could support me. So, I didn't have to worry about money too much. I still missed the stability of a job though. The break did a couple of things for me. It gave me time to develop new habits and it renewed my curiosity. I started tinkering again. It's really hard to care about new developments or technologies when you're drowning. However, if you're able to take care of yourself, I believe you'll find the curiosity that led you down to being a developer in the first place.
If you're a developer or if you're in tech. You're constantly learning. If you don't naturally like learning, it's going to be tough.
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I have taken some time off work recently to travel and unwind. Felt great at the end. Then I returned to work and quickly felt terrible: stress, insomnia, hard to keep up with everything.
I don't care anymore for all the constant keeping up with new developments, team project schedules, new technologies (never did actually), the lack of creativity and open-ended thinking, the lack of time to explore the world.
I have given a shot to working with talented world-class engineers, to learning new technologies, to developing on different tech stacks. I just don't see the value in that beyond the paycheck.
Is it time to quit tech?