Regular afternoon naps linked to improved cognitive function(sciencefocus.com)
sciencefocus.com
Regular afternoon naps linked to improved cognitive function
https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/afternoon-naps-linked-to-improved-cognitive-function/
157 comments
Ah, I did it for a year and started before my first child was born. At 3 weeks my body finally transitioned to polyphasic sleeping (similar time as to the transition to dvorak typing) and I was finally functioning through all the sleep deprivation. Concentration was similar to monophasic sleeping.
I could take care of the baby while my girlfriend was sleeping at night and I could go out or work on my hobbies all night (with 27m naps) without any problem. It was like I was a liberating experience, I watched the whole of society shutdown at night, but I was awake every day all by myself, it was very odd. I also realized I didn't really need a house if I could sleep anywhere, except in winter - but I started thinking I could just sleep 30m here and there (in trains, at work, in the park on a bench) perhaps with electric blankets. A real nomad lifestyle. I also noticed that I had to force myself being productive at night as my executive function wasn't quite there - it was like my mind was used to doing nothing consciously at night, an unconscious part didn't really see a point in being awake and doing things at night - so I mostly just was sitting there, contemplating or meditating. When I made a todo list it was better.
As I also had to organize naps outside and at friends and family places it caused some tension and conflicts (I can tell some really wild stories) - and eventually, also because I didn't want to risk potential long term issues I went to 2 naps and eventually 1 nap each day.
Regarding 35 minutes, you risk entering deep sleep with 35m, at least I did when I went over 30m a nap. Or did you mean 25 minutes?
I could take care of the baby while my girlfriend was sleeping at night and I could go out or work on my hobbies all night (with 27m naps) without any problem. It was like I was a liberating experience, I watched the whole of society shutdown at night, but I was awake every day all by myself, it was very odd. I also realized I didn't really need a house if I could sleep anywhere, except in winter - but I started thinking I could just sleep 30m here and there (in trains, at work, in the park on a bench) perhaps with electric blankets. A real nomad lifestyle. I also noticed that I had to force myself being productive at night as my executive function wasn't quite there - it was like my mind was used to doing nothing consciously at night, an unconscious part didn't really see a point in being awake and doing things at night - so I mostly just was sitting there, contemplating or meditating. When I made a todo list it was better.
As I also had to organize naps outside and at friends and family places it caused some tension and conflicts (I can tell some really wild stories) - and eventually, also because I didn't want to risk potential long term issues I went to 2 naps and eventually 1 nap each day.
Regarding 35 minutes, you risk entering deep sleep with 35m, at least I did when I went over 30m a nap. Or did you mean 25 minutes?
I found it would typically take 5-10 minutes to fall asleep. The one thing I did notice, that was really weird, is that as I fell asleep I'd have trouble "remembering to breath". Which was quite a strange experience.
I once got woken up by a security guard in the casino as I was taking my 35 nap sitting up and I found when I just said the phrase "medical reasons" he backed off.
I once got woken up by a security guard in the casino as I was taking my 35 nap sitting up and I found when I just said the phrase "medical reasons" he backed off.
> The one thing I did notice, that was really weird, is that as I fell asleep I'd have trouble "remembering to breath". Which was quite a strange experience.
Have you considered getting tested for sleep apnea?
Have you considered getting tested for sleep apnea?
Having had similar issues, "forgetting to breathe" usually gets diagnosed as central sleep apnea, which is usually associated with heroin abuse or heart failure. In my case neither was true, so docs generally threw their hands up and said "huh, weird!".
In addition, the therapy they recommended (bi-pap or something like that, basically a two-way assisted breathing machine) did absolutely nothing for me.
What finally helped was a min dose of an SSRI, which I started for totally unrelated reasons. Guess it was anxiety, never got any confirmation from any doctor that this is a known presentation of it, but swear to God literally two days on the stuff made me sleep easy with no breathing problems whatsoever. After six months I got off and once the withdrawal symptoms broke (real bad in my case, which is super weird for a min dose, but :shrug:) I've never had the problem again.
In addition, the therapy they recommended (bi-pap or something like that, basically a two-way assisted breathing machine) did absolutely nothing for me.
What finally helped was a min dose of an SSRI, which I started for totally unrelated reasons. Guess it was anxiety, never got any confirmation from any doctor that this is a known presentation of it, but swear to God literally two days on the stuff made me sleep easy with no breathing problems whatsoever. After six months I got off and once the withdrawal symptoms broke (real bad in my case, which is super weird for a min dose, but :shrug:) I've never had the problem again.
Sounds like an experience of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis#Threat_hyper-v...
As one falls asleep one loses the ability to voluntary breath. This can cause sensations of suffocating and resulting in panic if experienced when still conscious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis#Threat_hyper-v...
As one falls asleep one loses the ability to voluntary breath. This can cause sensations of suffocating and resulting in panic if experienced when still conscious.
Yep, bi-pap is the intermediate machine that insurance protocols force you to try and fail on before they’ll approve the machine that actually works for your condition: ASV (Adaptive Servo Ventilation). It’s crazy expensive if you buy it new, especially if through a DME vendor. But you can buy them used with minimal hours on them for $900 or so, which is what I did. It actually works for me.
> I also noticed that I had to force myself being productive at night as my executive function wasn't quite there - it was like my mind was used to doing nothing consciously at night, an unconscious part didn't really see a point in being awake and doing things at night - so I mostly just was sitting there, contemplating or meditating. When I made a todo list it was better.
Very interesting. I wonder if this helps to explain why I'm not all that productive when experiencing insomnia, even on the occasions when I say "okay well if I'm gonna be wide awake, I'm gonna get some work done on xyz"
Very interesting. I wonder if this helps to explain why I'm not all that productive when experiencing insomnia, even on the occasions when I say "okay well if I'm gonna be wide awake, I'm gonna get some work done on xyz"
I have just the opposite reaction...I get much more productive late at night. Possibly because of lack of distractions.
I worked midnight-8am for 10 years right out of high school, and now, if I'm not asleep by midnight my body just 'revs up'.
I worked midnight-8am for 10 years right out of high school, and now, if I'm not asleep by midnight my body just 'revs up'.
Sleep Hygiene and Reading are my saviours here, I have a rigorous sleep routine. Phone on charge in different room, electric blanket on, ablutions, kindle for some fantasy (a change from heavy reading), then if I make it to 30 minutes (I set a timer on HomePod) I set a sleep timer with the Podcast "Sleep with me" on HomePod. I never get to the end of my 25 minute timer.
> it was like my mind was used to doing nothing consciously at night
I used to stay late and do school projects at night (mostly programming). I always felt my mind is so calm and with no outside distractions I was able to focus very well and be very productive (may not be objective truth at all though).
I used to stay late and do school projects at night (mostly programming). I always felt my mind is so calm and with no outside distractions I was able to focus very well and be very productive (may not be objective truth at all though).
Was same teens and early 20s. Daytime Has never gone well for me.
I would use full black out blankets, ear plugs and noise canceling headphones with video game music.
Pair programmer was wonderful for me, as it kept me on task and I didn’t give into distractions as easily.
Later diagnosed as ADHD. Medication made a massive quality of life. Up until my body decided that stimulants are invaders and my immune system went bonkers.
I would use full black out blankets, ear plugs and noise canceling headphones with video game music.
Pair programmer was wonderful for me, as it kept me on task and I didn’t give into distractions as easily.
Later diagnosed as ADHD. Medication made a massive quality of life. Up until my body decided that stimulants are invaders and my immune system went bonkers.
> Up until my body decided that stimulants are invaders and my immune system went bonkers.
Have you found anything that gets close to it?? I have quite bad gerd and so taking any medication is a quick way to end up on the toilet but I would love to be able to focus!
Have you found anything that gets close to it?? I have quite bad gerd and so taking any medication is a quick way to end up on the toilet but I would love to be able to focus!
I have pretty bad acid reflux and my stomach often would get very acidic by the end of day. (Even if I ate nothing)
Fruit and yogurt helps me a lot.
I think it's because fruit doesn't digest primarily in the stomach, so it moves the pills faster into my intestines.
Not a doctor.
Fruit and yogurt helps me a lot.
I think it's because fruit doesn't digest primarily in the stomach, so it moves the pills faster into my intestines.
Not a doctor.
Atomoxetine (strattera) is a non-stimulant ADHD medication that might be tolerated better. Additionally, I noticed that stimulants don't upset my stomach nearly as much if you take it with a substantial meal.
You're blessed to be able to get to sleep so rapidly. For me, the stress of that type of job + coffee would kill that ability. Even without these two antagonists I would have no hope of being able to do that.
I don't know if there's definitive research saying this, but this ability to fall asleep quickly may be due to sleep deprivation. However, polyphasic sleep is linked to lower academic performance and increased daytime sleepiness. [0] That makes me think that the "benefit" is possibly an illusion due to the antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation.
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[0]: Studies linked here: https://www.verywellhealth.com/pros-and-cons-of-a-polyphasic...
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[0]: Studies linked here: https://www.verywellhealth.com/pros-and-cons-of-a-polyphasic...
Coffee is the killer here. I never ever used to nap. I quit caffeine almost a year ago, and within a month of quitting, I started enjoying the occassional mid afternoon nap. Not everyday, just when I was tired. It's nice to know when I'm tired actually.
Have you ever tried? Coffee is easy to cut. Just don't have any at home.
Yeah, it still takes me 60 minutes to sleep, because my mind is busy. I need meditation, medication, or something.
YMMV, but I would also try cutting out sugar, and adding melatonin. I cut out caffeine and sugar about 5 months ago, and consistently take 3mg of melatonin 1 hour before bed and went from 60+ minutes to fall asleep to less than 5 minutes.
Apparently insulin regulation plays a big part in sleep quality, hence the effect of sugar. Another nice side effect is I've lost about 7kg without counting any calories or making any real effort to.
Apparently insulin regulation plays a big part in sleep quality, hence the effect of sugar. Another nice side effect is I've lost about 7kg without counting any calories or making any real effort to.
Throwing in a bit more with YMMV...
Xmg of melatonin is hard to measure, because there's apparently not great accuracy in most OTC pills. And... it may take you days to confirm if a specific pill is 'working' well or not. If/when you find a combination, buy a bunch to have on hand.
I recently received the book "why we sleep" and it discussed melatonin's process. If "1 hour before bed" works for you, that's good, but it never did for me. ~3 hrs did. Or... at least 2-3 hours at this time of the year. My routine has been taking a melatonin between 6 and 7ish, and by 10 I'm typically quite 'ready' for sleep, and it's usually a fast process. It doesn't seem like it in the moment, but my wife has noticed I'm "out like a light" (which I think is more just in comparison to months ago).
Xmg of melatonin is hard to measure, because there's apparently not great accuracy in most OTC pills. And... it may take you days to confirm if a specific pill is 'working' well or not. If/when you find a combination, buy a bunch to have on hand.
I recently received the book "why we sleep" and it discussed melatonin's process. If "1 hour before bed" works for you, that's good, but it never did for me. ~3 hrs did. Or... at least 2-3 hours at this time of the year. My routine has been taking a melatonin between 6 and 7ish, and by 10 I'm typically quite 'ready' for sleep, and it's usually a fast process. It doesn't seem like it in the moment, but my wife has noticed I'm "out like a light" (which I think is more just in comparison to months ago).
You can buy liquid fast acting melatonin. I take a pipette 1 hour before bed time and by the time I got the pillow, I am so sleepy I fall asleep instantly and do not wake up during the night.
I would suggest you also look at the criticisms about the book you mentioned, Why We Sleep. I'd take the book's conclusions with caution.
Have read some - it's not a panacea for sure. It did recently renew some interest in the subject for me, but yes, take it with some caution, certainly. It did make me re-evaluate some of the things I was doing re: sleep, and I've generally had somewhat better results since making adjustments.
I bet you could quarter your melatonin dose and still get the effects. Do some reading, but 3mg (although a common OTC dosage) is pretty high.
My sleep trick is to read a book. It slows my mind and is easier to stop at any point once I’m dozing off.
I also have all phone alerts etc stop a 9pm.
I also have all phone alerts etc stop a 9pm.
For years after I graduated from college I kept my old physics textbook next to my bed for exactly this reason. Interesting enough to easily pick a topic to read, dry enough to put me to sleep in a paragraph.
I've quite successfully used Bill Clinton's autobiography for that for about year. :-)
Been the same forever but I’ve recently found 5-10 minutes of deep, slow, and focused breathing (in through nose, out through mouth) results in me falling asleep very quickly after.
If you only have 60 minutes to sleep, eventually it’ll work
Caffeine before noon or sticking to a last call at 2pm kind of help me. Medication wise I tried CBD which seem to help sleep a little better. YMMV.
Enough exercise, or physical activity of any form, will fix this. The time and motivation to do enough is the challenging part.
> I remember it as one of the most productive periods of my life but it was incredibly anti social and got the strangest looks from management.
The modern WFH culture has probably made it easier to do that than ever before (plus the lack of social schedules from the lockdown).
I did a modified Uberman sleep schedule while I was home taking care of my dad & working - the forced isolation, the fact that I would have to wake up every 3 hours to check on him & living in India, while working US hours anyway messing up my schedules of sleep supported the transition.
The process took almost two weeks to get into it, but lasted a whole two months & if I had to go back to it, all I would add to it is some exercise to sync up with the sun rising.
I think we as a species are naturally capable of doing short nap rests, at least for periods of several months, because that schedule of ~1 hour of rest for every 3 hours is literally what taking care of a newborn demands.
The modern WFH culture has probably made it easier to do that than ever before (plus the lack of social schedules from the lockdown).
I did a modified Uberman sleep schedule while I was home taking care of my dad & working - the forced isolation, the fact that I would have to wake up every 3 hours to check on him & living in India, while working US hours anyway messing up my schedules of sleep supported the transition.
The process took almost two weeks to get into it, but lasted a whole two months & if I had to go back to it, all I would add to it is some exercise to sync up with the sun rising.
I think we as a species are naturally capable of doing short nap rests, at least for periods of several months, because that schedule of ~1 hour of rest for every 3 hours is literally what taking care of a newborn demands.
> I remember it as one of the most productive periods of my life
> so after 3 weeks I had to pack it in.
Since it was for such a short period of time it's possible you just had sleep deprivation, which can be used to treat depression and cause a big uplift in mood.
> so after 3 weeks I had to pack it in.
Since it was for such a short period of time it's possible you just had sleep deprivation, which can be used to treat depression and cause a big uplift in mood.
I think this goes to show how many beneficial routines or habits are untenable simply because of the society we live in.
See also certain diets, not drinking alcohol, etc
See also certain diets, not drinking alcohol, etc
[deleted]
I tried bi-phasic for awhile. It worked great for me, but not so much for my family. My son's off at college now and I mostly work from home so I may give it a go again.
I use this concept of a "billable nap" ... it gets to the midafternoon and I'm deep in a programming problem, and my thought process gets far too fuzzy. So I can either spend a couple of hours or more struggling through, or I can shut my eyes for a bit 20 minutes idelally, and then nail the problem down in a much shorter time than without the nap.
Yeah, my work pays me the same whether I work 40 or 60 hours, so I cut my day short whenever I know I'm not gonna be productive. Usually it saves me a few hour of struggling and the solution comes to me first thing in the morning. I'm also the top 5% committer in my company even though I almost never touch 35h/week (caveat: I don't advertise this behavior at work and I work from home). Companies would really do themselves a favor cutting the day short, 40h of coding/meetings/etc a week is way too much for a lot of people.
Can also relate--I've been writing software for 15 years, and for probably the first 5 years I produced more raw lines of code than the last 10. At some point we (hopefully) all learn that slogging more code at a problem has a vanishingly small chance of solving it well.
The act of sleeping on a problem is almost mystical in that solutions seem to come out of thin air. The reality is that you're allowing your experience time to apply itself.
The act of sleeping on a problem is almost mystical in that solutions seem to come out of thin air. The reality is that you're allowing your experience time to apply itself.
yeah totally. I'll rage against the 40 hour work week any time anyone will let me. Personally I think I've got around 5 good coding hours in me in a day - ideally around 7:30 to 12:30. Schedule meetings for when I'm useless after that please.
how do you find a company okay with this?
well I mostly work remotely, and I have a reputation as someone who can get stuff done reliably.
When I was last in an office full time, commuting on the train a few years ago I'd usually be the first in my team to arrive, and then first to leave - basically trying to do 7:30 to 4 but I'd generally be pretty useless for the last couple of hours of the day.
Followed by a nap on the train.
When I was last in an office full time, commuting on the train a few years ago I'd usually be the first in my team to arrive, and then first to leave - basically trying to do 7:30 to 4 but I'd generally be pretty useless for the last couple of hours of the day.
Followed by a nap on the train.
not concerned about safety, napping on a train?
pro-tip: loop your legs and arms through the handles or straps of the bags you're traveling with to prevent people from stealing them while you sleep
e.g. put your backpack on your lap against your chest and cross your arms through the straps, stick your leg through the loop of a duffel bag handle, etc
e.g. put your backpack on your lap against your chest and cross your arms through the straps, stick your leg through the loop of a duffel bag handle, etc
not at all. Sometimes the slow local services fill up with lowlife, but these city commuter trains are fine where I live.
What could be dangerous with sleeping on a train? I always sleep on trains and buses, I even change when I go to sleep, so I'm tired when on the train, so I can fall asleep.
M5x7wI3CmbEem10, I first thought you were worried about sleeping too long, getting off at the wrong station
I suppose it's getting robbed? And that you live in a quite different part of the world than me :-/
M5x7wI3CmbEem10, I first thought you were worried about sleeping too long, getting off at the wrong station
I suppose it's getting robbed? And that you live in a quite different part of the world than me :-/
> I suppose it's getting robbed?
America.
America.
(the US or middle/southern America? I've gotten the impression that Canada is pretty safe though)
Ok, I'm in western/northern Europe.
Ok, I'm in western/northern Europe.
Just get your work done and don't broadcast loudly how/when you did it. I've worked fewer and fewer hours every year of my current job and my performance reviews all focus on the high velocity with which I work. I've never been asked nor told anyone how many hours a week I log in front of the screen.
(wfh definitely helps with this but even before that, I kept odd/hard to track hours and no one ever questioned me)
(wfh definitely helps with this but even before that, I kept odd/hard to track hours and no one ever questioned me)
sorry, can you detail this a bit more or give an example? if you get a week’s worth of work done in a day and send a pull request, surely they would see that you completed the task much faster.
I hope you work somewhere that code review exists. If you put a week's worth of work into a single pull request, you're probably making it too hard on your reviewer. So I break up my patches into smaller chunks (too small can easily be annoying as well, but I digress). These chunks and the conversations surrounding them can spread out over the rest of the week even though the focused time required to shepherd them along is <<8 hrs a day.
Probably better than browsing hn for 30m anyway
how do you find a company okay with this?
"billable walks" are the same - nothing helps focus like walking around around downtown with noise cancelling headphones on and letting life buzz all around you.
Ah yes, The Before Times, back when we still worked downtown and there was life outside.
A lot of places it’s easier to fit in a walk or short bike ride than a nap, and it’s just about as good for clearing the mind.
A lot of places it’s easier to fit in a walk or short bike ride than a nap, and it’s just about as good for clearing the mind.
I found that hanging out the laundry was a great way to nail down a tricky problem I'd been struggling with.
That can be a pretty hard sell if you work in an office for a company that doesn't have dedicated nap pods. I've never really felt comfortable taking a nap at the office, myself.
yeah it's much easier to achieve as a remote worker in a different time zone. In my time zone, my nap time tends to coincide with things winding up for the day at the mothership.
Even in the same time zone, it would be relatively easy for me to disappear for 30 minutes after lunch. All I'd have to do is block it off on my calendar as "busy," and nobody would ever say anything, which is how it should be when you're an adult working with other adults.
I find if I'm working on a difficult problem, I feel like I can make more rapid progress if I take a 'nap' early afternoon in that post lunch drowsy period. I often start thinking about the problems again immediately on waking, and typically find that is the most productive period in terms of breakthroughs and making mental connections.
I put 'nap' in quotes because I don't set an alarm (unless there is specific need to), and for me that usually means a 2 hour sleep! I figure that is made up of 90 mins of one sleep cycle, and some time either side for falling asleep and waking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_cycle
All made possible by pandemic working from home.
I put 'nap' in quotes because I don't set an alarm (unless there is specific need to), and for me that usually means a 2 hour sleep! I figure that is made up of 90 mins of one sleep cycle, and some time either side for falling asleep and waking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_cycle
All made possible by pandemic working from home.
45 minutes is a good period as it gets you to the beginning of your REM cycle. I often aim for 45 minutes as a nap, but for reasons I don't understand, 20 minutes can be disproportionately invigorating.
As I understand it REM sleep is at the start and end of each cycle, thus 45 mins would put you squarely in a deep non-REM phase. That said, the cycles get progressively shorter in an overnight sleep, so it's possible a daytime nap sleep cycle would be much shorter than the full 90 mins.
From memory (my 25 year old psychology degree which I clearly misremembered previously), the point of 45 minutes is that it gets you to just before the deep sleep cycle. If you can wake up naturally and alert at around that time mark then you've got the complete light sleep part of the cycle.
If I don't set an alarm, my head feels like cement afterwards.
Do you still sleep 8 hours at night?
This is anecdata, but I don't think it affects my overnight sleep if my nap is post lunch, although it definitely does if I sleep later in the day, say from 4pm to 6pm. I think there's enough time and mental exertion in the afternoon and evening that I sleep normally overnight. Possibly it's a slightly shorter sleep overnight, but a net increase per day overall, or, at least no shorter overall.
> The average length of nighttime sleep was around 6.5 hours in both groups, though no information was taken on the specific duration or timing of the naps taken
Sounds like they were just underslept people?
Sounds like they were just underslept people?
I'd think 6.5 hours is above or close to the average amount of sleep most people get.
I don't know about you, but I need, and typically get between 7-9 hours of sleep per night. Less than 7 and I feel sleep deprived. More than 9 and I don't feel sleep deprived per se, but I don't have much energy (physical or mental), either.
I recently read "Why we sleep" by Matthew Walker (pretty good book overall). He provides evidence that states the ideal amount of daily sleep is between 7-8 hours. Any more or less is detrimental to overall health.
"Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors"
https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
Just read this over, many major topics of the book aren't addressed here such as improved memory & brain function, improved reaction time, reduction of Alzheimer's(by sleep flushing the brain of certain toxins consistently linked to Alz), importance of sleep cycle timing(deep REM sleep vs lighter REM sleep, etc), and possible links to Autism.
I also noticed a response to a question on memory from the article's author saying something like "well I didn't look into the impacts on memory so I can't comment on that". Also, this reads as a hit piece in general involving significantly less research and details involved, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
I also noticed a response to a question on memory from the article's author saying something like "well I didn't look into the impacts on memory so I can't comment on that". Also, this reads as a hit piece in general involving significantly less research and details involved, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
On the other hand, it shouldn't be so easy to find evidence of the author taking creative liberty with data. If he is willing to change data in one place to fit his narrative, then you ought to take the whole book with a mountain of salt, unless you have the time to investigate every claim yourself.
I would be more concerned with the major topics that _are_ addressed by a piece of criticism than the ones that aren't. If you want to discredit a piece of criticism, you should address the actual contentions.
Of course many topics of the book aren’t covered, this entire post is only about chapter one! If you actually read the post you will see it is pretty damning.
[deleted]
Could you explain a bit what kind of evidence he shows? This contradicts what I've always listened, which is that the ideal amount of sleep varies between people.
There's a fair amount of people that sleep less than 7h.
https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/data_statistics.html
https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/data_statistics.html
- Average sleep varies fairly significantly internationally (https://www.economist.com/1843/2018/03/01/which-countries-ge...), and regionally just in the US (https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/data_statistics.html)
- Average sleep is, obviously, not necessarily optimal; recommendations seem to tend towards 7+ hours on average (e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/about_sleep/how_much_sleep.html), and there's of course data to support that recommendation (again https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/data_statistics.html)
- Average sleep is, obviously, not necessarily optimal; recommendations seem to tend towards 7+ hours on average (e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/about_sleep/how_much_sleep.html), and there's of course data to support that recommendation (again https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/data_statistics.html)
The data is interesting, but I am always skeptical of self-reported sleep times. It seems there is a sense of pride some people take in sleeping less than others.
There's definitely reason to be suspect, although it looks like, on the average, it might be the reverse of what you seem to be expecting (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2785092/):
"Our model suggests that persons sleeping 5 and 7 hours over-reported, on average, by 1.3 and 0.3 hours respectively."
For self-reporting sleep studies, perhaps people have it in their head that 8 hours is how much they're "supposed" to sleep and they over-report to better match that?
Of note, however, while the CDC data I linked comes from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System which does appear to be merely a self-reporting survey question (https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/surveillance.html), the data in the Economist article comes from an app (www.sleepcycle.com). Granted, I suspect the latter almost surely suffers from some kind of non-trivial selection bias.
"Our model suggests that persons sleeping 5 and 7 hours over-reported, on average, by 1.3 and 0.3 hours respectively."
For self-reporting sleep studies, perhaps people have it in their head that 8 hours is how much they're "supposed" to sleep and they over-report to better match that?
Of note, however, while the CDC data I linked comes from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System which does appear to be merely a self-reporting survey question (https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/surveillance.html), the data in the Economist article comes from an app (www.sleepcycle.com). Granted, I suspect the latter almost surely suffers from some kind of non-trivial selection bias.
Would be interesting to look at smart watch data to see actual averages. You can tell when a person is sleeping by watching their motion activity (obviously) in combination with a drop in heart rate.
Then the average person is underslept.
But not what most people should get.
Lately I've noticed I do much better off 5.5-6.5 hours of sleep. I've been fighting brain fog and fatigue lately so occasionally I try to force myself to sleep more and it just makes my problems worse.
Even if it is (which I believe it is not; my memory thinks it's higher) that doesn't mean that they aren't underslept at that amount.
Sounds like most people are underslept.
Would the extra time work even if want an afternoon nap but a longer night sleep?
These are people aged over 60. This is kind of normal for that age group.
The big new parenting hack I discovered late in the game are 2-3 scheduled 20 minute naps. Totally mitigates the worst effects of sleep fragmentation and depravation. You don’t feel 100% but the 80% you do feel makes it way different than the abject misery of going a whole day after 2-3 hours of sleep.
The scheduled part is critical since it ensures you get to the point where your body drops right to REM and you actually get your naps instead of presuming you will find the time and then life manages to get in the way.
The scheduled part is critical since it ensures you get to the point where your body drops right to REM and you actually get your naps instead of presuming you will find the time and then life manages to get in the way.
I’ve always been jealous of those who can nap. For whatever reason my body just doesn’t want to fall asleep. Even at night it usually takes me over an hour to fall asleep. Anyone else unable to nap?
Here's a trick my coworker invented that helps me fall asleep: Spell the name of an author you like forwards, and then backwards, and then forwards again, and backwards, repeating and repeating until you fall asleep. I've gotten to the point where I do it 2x and am out.
Why does this work? :)
Sometimes the reason I can't fall asleep is that my mental engines are just too active. I'm not worried per se, there are just too many interesting things to think about. Sometimes in response I'll do prime factorization of numbers in my head. It requires focused attention, and is interesting enough that I can actually focus on it, excluding all the other things I was thinking about, but not so interesting that I'll fight sleep to do it. Sometimes listening to Chinese does the same thing: it's interesting enough to focus on (and exclude whatever else was keeping the "engine" going), but not so interesting that I'll fight sleep to pay attention.
If I were to pull an explanation out of my behind:
I’d say this is a complicated enough exercise to keep you focused on it and not drift to other topics, yet so utterly boring as to not keep you awake in anticipation of what happens next.
Then perhaps after using this technique for a few days your brain might start to recognize these neuron patterns as the shutdown sequence.
Then perhaps after using this technique for a few days your brain might start to recognize these neuron patterns as the shutdown sequence.
Three reasons:
- it gets your mind off from the problems it would work on instead of sleeping
- it is boring, so it will eventually escape the boredom by falling asleep
- the time it takes to fall asleep gets shorter and shorter as it becomes a routine
- it gets your mind off from the problems it would work on instead of sleeping
- it is boring, so it will eventually escape the boredom by falling asleep
- the time it takes to fall asleep gets shorter and shorter as it becomes a routine
Someone told me ear plugs significantly shortened their time to sleep.
I’ve also noticed one can feel relaxed and lie in bed but actually have a lot of residual muscle tension. Consciously trying to relax muscles in upper back/neck, thighs and arms seems to help me.
I’ve also noticed one can feel relaxed and lie in bed but actually have a lot of residual muscle tension. Consciously trying to relax muscles in upper back/neck, thighs and arms seems to help me.
Ear plugs help with noise, but they are painful for me after a while
I used to be unable to nap. However, sometimes I'd feel nappish, and just fake it. Close your eyes, slow your breathing, focus your attention on the sound of your breath. After 20 minutes, get up. That never failed for me.
I'm a bit older now, and I can actually fall asleep in midday naps. Sometimes. But I still feel energized after a nap, sleep or no.
For nighttime, I refuse to fail to sleep. When I start yawning, it's my bedtime, and I'm out like a light. If I try to sleep but I'm still bored 10 minutes in, it's not time yet. I've learned that if I try for an hour, I'll still be trying come morning.
I'm a bit older now, and I can actually fall asleep in midday naps. Sometimes. But I still feel energized after a nap, sleep or no.
For nighttime, I refuse to fail to sleep. When I start yawning, it's my bedtime, and I'm out like a light. If I try to sleep but I'm still bored 10 minutes in, it's not time yet. I've learned that if I try for an hour, I'll still be trying come morning.
I have the same shortcoming; when I try to nap I seldom succeed. When I do succeed, I usually awake feeling worse, like I have whole-body morning mouth. I wish I had that napping power, I've seen what it can do for others.
I used to only be able to nap very rarely. Then I noticed that on the few days that I did nap, I had usually exerted myself physically. Then I started exercising regularly, just 2-3x a week at first. And suddenly, was able to nap. I actually just woke up from my regular Saturday afternoon nap. It’s wonderful.
Do you drink a lot of coffee? A couple of years ago I made a small experiment and cut out coffee completely for at couple of weeks and I noticed two positive things. One is toilet oriented and the other was that I found it significantly easier to fall asleep.
I've also sometimes tried something I read in a blog a long time ago. I think they said it was what the Marines did but I have no idea if it's true. I'll imagine I'm lying in a canoe on an almost still lake with a crystal clear sky. Focus really hard on imagining the clear blue sky and then start imagining the gentle rocking of the canoe by the lake. Keep focus on just those two things.
Zero science, pure anecdotal, so take it for what you will :)
I've also sometimes tried something I read in a blog a long time ago. I think they said it was what the Marines did but I have no idea if it's true. I'll imagine I'm lying in a canoe on an almost still lake with a crystal clear sky. Focus really hard on imagining the clear blue sky and then start imagining the gentle rocking of the canoe by the lake. Keep focus on just those two things.
Zero science, pure anecdotal, so take it for what you will :)
I've spent years learning to fall asleep as well. I've had no luck with any of the "mindful" methods, brain just too overactive and restless. What worked well is listening to user comments on a monotonous text-to-speech engine. Feels like dozying off at a party while eaves dropping on conversation.
Setup is low profile in ear bluetooth headphones + copy and past a HN or reddit thread of interest (bookmarked earlier during RSS time), strip superfluous UI text and listen away. Unlike produced content like podcast/show, it's not designed to keep your attention. It still takes 10-20 minutes but it's reliable. Also gaining 10% more time is invaluable.
Setup is low profile in ear bluetooth headphones + copy and past a HN or reddit thread of interest (bookmarked earlier during RSS time), strip superfluous UI text and listen away. Unlike produced content like podcast/show, it's not designed to keep your attention. It still takes 10-20 minutes but it's reliable. Also gaining 10% more time is invaluable.
Regarding podcasts designed to keep your attention: I just found out about the complete opposite elsewhere in this thread: https://open.spotify.com/show/6RLX4Ns3kRUQiJi7RZl4NA?si=bEFG...
Episodes seem to resolve into largely incoherent babbling pretty soon. Also, the number of episodes (and their duration) is kind of mind boggling!
Episodes seem to resolve into largely incoherent babbling pretty soon. Also, the number of episodes (and their duration) is kind of mind boggling!
haha this podcast is what inspired me on my tts system.
Thought the concept was great, but couldn't stand the host or style. it feels like being trapped in room with crazy person, harder to fall asleep to his mutterings. Also doesn't work well when topics are random, need something that grabs brain interest, but not too much. This is why comment threads are great - they're somewhat sorted by quality. You start off with interesting conversations before quality drop, and it's easy for brain to check out.
Thought the concept was great, but couldn't stand the host or style. it feels like being trapped in room with crazy person, harder to fall asleep to his mutterings. Also doesn't work well when topics are random, need something that grabs brain interest, but not too much. This is why comment threads are great - they're somewhat sorted by quality. You start off with interesting conversations before quality drop, and it's easy for brain to check out.
I used to be able to fall asleep anytime anywhere. Then I got diagnosed with Sleep Apnea. Now that I'm treating it and actually getting a good sleep it's very hard to nap, maybe these people are just sleep deprived? or a lot of them anyway.
Also unable to nap. I usually sleep fine at night, no insomnia. But I can't fall asleep in the afternoon unless I'm severely sleep deprived. Even being physically tired from hard labor or exercise doesn't really make me able to nap.
I think the key (at least for me) is to not worry too much about it. Some times I lay down for 10-15 minutes but I don't fall asleep, and that's OK. Not every nap requires sleep.
I think some people (my wife included) get caught up in the thought that in order to nap you have to sleep. Maybe just lie down, close your eyes, and try to relax (slow breathing, clear your mind, etc.) If you don't fall asleep after 10 minutes (or whatever) get up and go about your day. If you do, that's great too.
I think some people (my wife included) get caught up in the thought that in order to nap you have to sleep. Maybe just lie down, close your eyes, and try to relax (slow breathing, clear your mind, etc.) If you don't fall asleep after 10 minutes (or whatever) get up and go about your day. If you do, that's great too.
Both caffeine and alcohol can mess with your ability to get to sleep. If you are having trouble sleeping I would recommend reducing or eliminating those from your routine.
For naps I use an app called Pzizz. Without it, I can't nap. With it, I fall asleep almost every time.
Every polyphasic sleep story: “I did this for a few months and it was incredible. Then I stopped and went back to sleeping through the night.”
Is it just the social pressure, I wonder?
Nevertheless, I’m glad to hear that science is confirming what seems anecdotally obvious: siestas help.
Is it just the social pressure, I wonder?
Nevertheless, I’m glad to hear that science is confirming what seems anecdotally obvious: siestas help.
Awhile ago I read a blog post by someone who had stuck to an uberman schedule longer than most. From what I remember social pressure was part of the reason he stopped but more than that it was just very inflexible. Missing a nap would throw off his sleep schedule so he had to plan all his activities around napping every ~3.5 hours. That made it difficult to be spontaneous and any unexpected things that came up could end up having an outsized impact. Might be less of an issue with other polyphasic sleep schedules though, uberman seems like a bit of an extreme.
For me with bi-phasic it was exactly that; my family. The only way I could make it work was to sacrifice something at work or dinner time. Neither was doable for me.
I used to nap regularly around lunch time but it sometimes made it difficult to dflaa asleep at a reasonable time those evenings.
Then I listened to Andrew Huberman talk about doing some meditation or yoga, getting inside, at 16:00 to reset your "external" system (1). I did a fair amount of meditation in the past so thought I'd give it a try, but keep it extremely sole just focus on my breath and being a witness without getting involved with anything going on around me. I do this for 15 mins around 16:00 (depending on what's going on at work). For me it works, I feel refreshed, re-energized like after a nap, but with the advantage that I have no problem to fall asleep at night.
1: https://youtube.com/watch?v=lz3yvJ08k0Q
Then I listened to Andrew Huberman talk about doing some meditation or yoga, getting inside, at 16:00 to reset your "external" system (1). I did a fair amount of meditation in the past so thought I'd give it a try, but keep it extremely sole just focus on my breath and being a witness without getting involved with anything going on around me. I do this for 15 mins around 16:00 (depending on what's going on at work). For me it works, I feel refreshed, re-energized like after a nap, but with the advantage that I have no problem to fall asleep at night.
1: https://youtube.com/watch?v=lz3yvJ08k0Q
A friend of mine was up late night studying for an exam. She was getting increasingly frustrated as nothing was making sense to her. I told her to relax, go take a nap, and when you wake up everything will make sense.
Three hours later I get a text from her: "OMG thank you. The nap did help me understand everything!" (I'm paraphrasing).
I don't know what it is exactly, but I feel like naps almost invariably help me to understand complex problems. I suppose it's partly because my brain is still thinking about the problems while I sleep, and partly because my brain wakes up energized and ready to go, without the fog of tiredness interfering with my thoughts.
Regardless, napping when I'm tired has yet to fail me whenever I'm stuck on a complex issue.
Three hours later I get a text from her: "OMG thank you. The nap did help me understand everything!" (I'm paraphrasing).
I don't know what it is exactly, but I feel like naps almost invariably help me to understand complex problems. I suppose it's partly because my brain is still thinking about the problems while I sleep, and partly because my brain wakes up energized and ready to go, without the fog of tiredness interfering with my thoughts.
Regardless, napping when I'm tired has yet to fail me whenever I'm stuck on a complex issue.
Interesting that the article is so dementia-focused, which I didn't expect.
Personally, naps do enough good for me that I regularly use L-theanine or melatonin to help those happen.
I've also been experimenting with taking L-theanine about an hour after waking in the morning, to encourage pre-noon naps, usually happening sometime between 8-11 am. This is because overnight sleep quality and sleep cycles can vary from day to day, so I find a bit of a "reset" nap in a more controlled environment (my office) can provide additional mood and executive support.
It seems a bit ridiculous now to consider how much of a daily energy bet I was making on the outcome of a single 6-10 hour overnight period, which could be affected/moderated by all kinds of factors.
Personally, naps do enough good for me that I regularly use L-theanine or melatonin to help those happen.
I've also been experimenting with taking L-theanine about an hour after waking in the morning, to encourage pre-noon naps, usually happening sometime between 8-11 am. This is because overnight sleep quality and sleep cycles can vary from day to day, so I find a bit of a "reset" nap in a more controlled environment (my office) can provide additional mood and executive support.
It seems a bit ridiculous now to consider how much of a daily energy bet I was making on the outcome of a single 6-10 hour overnight period, which could be affected/moderated by all kinds of factors.
L-theanine is awesome!
I'm wondering though, are you using melatonin during the day to take naps?
I'm wondering though, are you using melatonin during the day to take naps?
I agree!
Yep, I do use melatonin during the day but at a lowered dose. Usually 150mcg or half of one of the tablets I take at night. 300mcg is for me nearly a guarantee that I'll nap for 3 hours, and those oversleep results (depending on last night's sleep, but usually it'd be oversleep) are not enjoyable at all.
Edit: I've also taken a quarter tablet or about 75mcg to calm down after a long day, and I'm glad I tried it.
Yep, I do use melatonin during the day but at a lowered dose. Usually 150mcg or half of one of the tablets I take at night. 300mcg is for me nearly a guarantee that I'll nap for 3 hours, and those oversleep results (depending on last night's sleep, but usually it'd be oversleep) are not enjoyable at all.
Edit: I've also taken a quarter tablet or about 75mcg to calm down after a long day, and I'm glad I tried it.
That's really interesting, I hadn't considered that it could be used for naps! Have you noticed it "confusing" your circadian rhythm at all? As in, do you need to take extra care to not get your rhythm out of whack when you use it during daytime daytime? Intuitively, that would be the biggest potential downside I can see.
Also, I'm honestly a bit jealous that you have 300mcg tablets; the best I could find is 1mg in a capsule and to split that I have to do volumetric dosing. But at least it's not the insane amounts you exclusively find in American pharmacies, heh.
Also, I'm honestly a bit jealous that you have 300mcg tablets; the best I could find is 1mg in a capsule and to split that I have to do volumetric dosing. But at least it's not the insane amounts you exclusively find in American pharmacies, heh.
I haven't noticed any negative effects on my ultradian rhythms, but I do use the rhythmic effect to help me fall asleep or get some rest.
For example, if I feel like I'm bottoming out on a given cycle, I'll exaggerate my de-energizing response in order to bring the right momentum into the adjustment to the energy change. I might gently slump over in my chair, open my mouth, breathe deeply, and meditate for a few seconds before calmly deciding what to do--a bit of an overreact to help me model and effect the mental transition.
The opposite helps when I'm headed energy-upward on such a cycle.
In any case, if I'm feeling off (relative to the rhythm) I tend to set ultradian-style timers, e.g. building on the strengths of a 90-minute cycle effect by delaying important plans or decisions for 15 minutes to see if cycle position helps.
I hear you on the dosage. In case it helps, the brand I use are "Sundown" and the tablets are really inexpensive.
For example, if I feel like I'm bottoming out on a given cycle, I'll exaggerate my de-energizing response in order to bring the right momentum into the adjustment to the energy change. I might gently slump over in my chair, open my mouth, breathe deeply, and meditate for a few seconds before calmly deciding what to do--a bit of an overreact to help me model and effect the mental transition.
The opposite helps when I'm headed energy-upward on such a cycle.
In any case, if I'm feeling off (relative to the rhythm) I tend to set ultradian-style timers, e.g. building on the strengths of a 90-minute cycle effect by delaying important plans or decisions for 15 minutes to see if cycle position helps.
I hear you on the dosage. In case it helps, the brand I use are "Sundown" and the tablets are really inexpensive.
The title supports my current values so well, I won't even bother scrutinizing the article. :)
...in people aged 60 and over.
Yeah it's kind of ridiculous to not include this. It's like a headline,
"Eating every 2 hours shown to improve cognitive function [in infants aged 0-6 weeks]"
"Eating every 2 hours shown to improve cognitive function [in infants aged 0-6 weeks]"
"Eating every 8 hours shown to improve tail and whisker growth [in <you can guess>]"
Given that over 60s are well documented to have lower melatonin levels, sleep less deeply and less at night it's easy to imagine why they might benefit more from naps.
While regular afternoon naps may be linked to improved cognitive function, regular afternoon naps after food are strongly linked to my stomach aches.
Once or twice a day most days I put on my eye mask and put on a guided yoga nidra session. I set my timer for 15 to 30 minutes depending on my energy level at the time. These really give me an extra boost in energy and help keep me relaxed and focused.
I was never able to nap in the afternoon, unless I was really tired, but I would not call that a nap.
Even when I was not drinking coffee, I was still not napping. While my wife would just nap every day between 1-2pm or 20 minutes like a clockwork.
Even when I was not drinking coffee, I was still not napping. While my wife would just nap every day between 1-2pm or 20 minutes like a clockwork.
It doesn’t sound like other variables were eliminated in this study. For example, what if everybody who is able to take a nap held and office job and is now retired while those who don’t nap still have to work?
Sometimes I will go nap with a problem in my head and will wake up with the solution. I believe it helps, but I still don’t know if it is a placebo effect.
Agreed. Also, the kinds of people who have the leisure / freedom to take naps probably already have a lot of advantages over those who can’t. Those advantages might be the key difference.
Didn't really read the article thoroughly, but it looks like there is a selection bias
I've tried afternoon naps throughout my life I'm part of the distribution where it only made my cognitive function and physical performance worse.
It's been years since I tried it last, so I'll def check it out. So far the best thing for my cognitive function from all my experiments is to have a good night sleep, eat healthy, meditate, have passions, and exercise. This doesn't mean Im consistent with it as sometimes it gets boring.
I noticed if you want your brain to get functionally good at something, these healthy habits will only take you half way there. There are other mental models that you're not gonna learn from simply being healthy.
I've tried afternoon naps throughout my life I'm part of the distribution where it only made my cognitive function and physical performance worse.
It's been years since I tried it last, so I'll def check it out. So far the best thing for my cognitive function from all my experiments is to have a good night sleep, eat healthy, meditate, have passions, and exercise. This doesn't mean Im consistent with it as sometimes it gets boring.
I noticed if you want your brain to get functionally good at something, these healthy habits will only take you half way there. There are other mental models that you're not gonna learn from simply being healthy.
In case anyone’s interested, here’s a Wikipedia article [0] about that good afternoon siesta!
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SiestaYears ago I worked for a guy from Honduras who had a strict hour long, exactly at noon lunch policy. He'd call his wife, eat his lunch, brush his teeth, then nap for the rest of lunch.
I could never do the nap thing, but I always appreciated the hour long break. The naps seemed necessary for him though. If there was times he couldn't have his nap he'd get kind of grumpy and such.
I could never do the nap thing, but I always appreciated the hour long break. The naps seemed necessary for him though. If there was times he couldn't have his nap he'd get kind of grumpy and such.
I did biphasic sleep in high school (1.5h nap at 16:30, 4.5h sleep at 2:00) for my junior and part of senior year, and it was incredible. It allowed me to do nearly all of my homework right when it was assigned while also having time for my hobbies. Starting the homework right after the nap was great for focus and productivity.
I would love to have the time for afternoon naps. I mean if I could fit it sure I'd have better cognitive functions but what's to say that staying awake and doing what I do is not more productive anyway? Maybe I don't need that jolt and can function fine without the nap... I'll have another coffee.
This is why I love working remotely. A little 15-20 min power nap makes me so much more productive.
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"Those in the habit of afternoon napping were also found to have a higher level of triglyceride, a type of fat found in the blood"
This seems like a pretty important caveat.
This seems like a pretty important caveat.
I’m not surprised. You are most productive from like 9 to 12. A nap allows you to have two productive sessions.
That’s certainly not when I’m most productive. 4-7pm crowd here!
Are you employed? I had weird productivity times when I was employed but when I quit my job I realized my productivity times are actually early in the morning. The best days are when I start working at 7 am. But noon, you have done a whole day.
Employed 10 or 11 years now. I’m in my mid 30s.
Some people are just wired differently :)
Some people are just wired differently :)
Only people with a morning chronotype. I'm more productive in the late afternoon and evening.
I knew there was a scientific reason [cough] why I siesta every day [ahem] :)
It works even better during long winded meetings specially during video conferencing.
Very popular in military deployments.
Finally, an excuse to nap
I have a very difficult time falling asleep if I know I have to wake up shortly.
So I’m not lazy!
Naps are also linked to increased consumption of Cruzcampo.
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I'd do 35 minute naps with an alarm at 0430, 0830, 1230, 1630, and without an alarm at 2030 and 0030 (on the basis that I thought my body would sleep through if I was "doing any damage").
It made going out at the weekends or playing poker in a casino incredibly difficult so after 3 weeks I had to pack it in.
I was lucky to live a 5 minute, folding, bicycle ride from the office but I also had a little card I'd leave on my desk for the corner that said, "I have not collapsed I'm having a nap."
The one thing I've kept from those days is that I still wear a sleep mask to bed.