Banner Ads Considered Harmful(gwern.net)
gwern.net
Banner Ads Considered Harmful
https://www.gwern.net/Ads
46 comments
If you just skimmed this and didn't finish reading it, the surveys section is particularly interesting: https://www.gwern.net/Ads#they-just-dont-know
> As usual, I use Google Surveys
I think that would have a huge systemic bias vis a vis ad nlocker knowledge.
I think that would have a huge systemic bias vis a vis ad nlocker knowledge.
GS is a paywall, not an ad, so it afflicts the just and unjust alike, AFAIK.
I'm wondering if it is possible a large portion of the survey takers were non-native English speakers that simply don't understand what 'ad' means in their own language.
When I served ads, It showed I had about 10k unique readers a month.
When I stopped serving ads, It had over 50k unique readers a month.
Google definitely rewards landing pages without ads and it turns out, over 70% of my readers used ad block and i was really always doing 50K more uniques a month but they were blocking analytics and other things (tag manager) so they were ghost readers anyway...
without ads, google sends me a hell of a lot more traffic too
When I stopped serving ads, It had over 50k unique readers a month.
Google definitely rewards landing pages without ads and it turns out, over 70% of my readers used ad block and i was really always doing 50K more uniques a month but they were blocking analytics and other things (tag manager) so they were ghost readers anyway...
without ads, google sends me a hell of a lot more traffic too
Why did the ones using analytics blockers show up when you took ads off the page?
No idea. I switched to cloudflare analytics and i'm getting real numbers without screwing with my readers privacy anymore so i'm happy...
Firefox does goofy stuff to tag manager, lots of ad block blockers block analytics too and no script and stuff too.
Firefox does goofy stuff to tag manager, lots of ad block blockers block analytics too and no script and stuff too.
> they were ghost readers anyway
They were normal, prudent, readers. The rest of them were careless readers holding a large sign over the heads with their personal details...
They were normal, prudent, readers. The rest of them were careless readers holding a large sign over the heads with their personal details...
What if you switch to Google Ads?
I was a google premium partner, they managed the ads...
People often talk about favorite TV ads. College kids will put pretty magazine ads on their dorm walls. We all sing radio jingles involuntarily.
Has anyone ever enjoyed a banner ad?
Has anyone ever enjoyed a banner ad?
You never punched the monkey???
All those years ago I would actually take helpdesk support calls from business users that wanted help punching the monkey from their work computers. People would put work on hold until I walked over to their desk and clicked it for them. I had a legal firm pay us to install bonzi buddy on all machines.
It's amazing different the attitudes can be towards things tech people see as silly or scammy.
It's amazing different the attitudes can be towards things tech people see as silly or scammy.
I once worked at a company that made learning management software for CEOs - basically those stupid HR click-thrus we all have to sit through. Problem was that CEOs at the time didn’t know how to use a scroll bar so if they encountered a screen with a scroll bar they either couldn’t continue or, after we moved the next button to the top of the screen, missed all of the content not on screen and couldn’t pass the tests.
I could never figure out their issue. I encountered my first scroll bar on a Mac in a JC Penny way back when and had no issue with scrolling.
I could never figure out their issue. I encountered my first scroll bar on a Mac in a JC Penny way back when and had no issue with scrolling.
After 9/11 there were similar banner ads that showed up that were like "punch Osama Bin Laden." I always found them distasteful.
[deleted]
>Has anyone ever enjoyed a banner ad?
What about Evony, my lord?
What about Evony, my lord?
That game had 0% as much cleavage as the ad campaign. I don't see how that worked.
[deleted]
> People often talk about favorite TV ads. College kids will put pretty magazine ads on their dorm walls. We all sing radio jingles involuntarily.
Can I assume you are writing this from an American perspective (where advertising is everywhere, even to children) as doing such things is alien to me.
Can I assume you are writing this from an American perspective (where advertising is everywhere, even to children) as doing such things is alien to me.
[deleted]
I've heard people from various European countries talk about favourite ads, I had favourite ads myself as a kid, and you can/could occasionally see people affectionately spoof ads in comedy/talk shows.
This is definitely not just an American thing.
This is definitely not just an American thing.
A favorite advertisement of the Danish people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vosH4sRJgQA (Fillips Far)
I don't even speak the language this TV ad is in, and I love it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X21mJh6j9i4
But yeah, I have fond memories of some American commercials that still get me: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9JxhTnWrKYs
But yeah, I have fond memories of some American commercials that still get me: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9JxhTnWrKYs
Yes. My first ever YouTube video was about a banner ad on Slashdot that I enjoyed back in 2007: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCiAyTYBSJU .. it's had over 100k views so I guess someone's enjoyed it :-D
Whoa, the British I'm a Mac ads were much cooler than the American ones. Still can't believe that PC dumped Queen Elizabeth II at the altar tho…
A lot of people make "one weird trick" jokes; does that count?
>People often talk about favorite TV ads. College kids will put pretty magazine ads on their dorm walls. We all sing radio jingles involuntarily
This must depend on the group or time. I don't recall people's dorms having magazine ads. Aside from the superbowl, any mention of a tv ad is extremely rare. I don't hear anyone sign radio jingles. Similarly, no one likes banner ads.
Most of my friends are mid 30's rock climbers so maybe it's due to groups and ages.
This must depend on the group or time. I don't recall people's dorms having magazine ads. Aside from the superbowl, any mention of a tv ad is extremely rare. I don't hear anyone sign radio jingles. Similarly, no one likes banner ads.
Most of my friends are mid 30's rock climbers so maybe it's due to groups and ages.
An interesting question would be how much of this can be attributed to readers from China and other countries that block Google. It's a common problem on other sites that loading of something non-important is attempted from Google servers, but the page doesn't render (i.e. doesn't show anything) until that ill-fated request times out.
Google's ad and tracking domains are mostly exempt from the Great Firewall: www.googleanalytics.com is not blocked ( https://en.greatfire.org/https/www.googleanalytics.com ) while googleads.g.doubleclick.net was apparently blocked for a while but is currently accessible ( https://en.greatfire.org/https/googleads.g.doubleclick.net ) EDIT: I just noticed that Gwern's article includes the URL of the ad script he embedded: pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js. That one's not blocked either ( https://en.greatfire.org/https/pagead2.googlesyndication.com... )
What tends to break sites is when they depend on ajax.googleapis.com, which has been blocked for years now ( https://en.greatfire.org/https/ajax.googleapis.com )
What tends to break sites is when they depend on ajax.googleapis.com, which has been blocked for years now ( https://en.greatfire.org/https/ajax.googleapis.com )
I have to say that I am lucky that I have a print-related disability, because I almost never need to go websites with ads.
Services I get access to (no-ads):
* 975,000+ books for $50/year (Bookshare.org)
* 60,000+ professionally narrated audio books for free (US National Library Service)
* 80,000+ volunteer narrated audio books for $135/year (LearningAlly.org)
* Hundreds of Newspapers and Magazines for free (NFB Newsline)
* 99% of the books posted on OpenLibrary.org for free (even books currently "borrowed")
* Virtually all libraries for print-related disabilities around the world (sometimes free, sometimes paid) (I can get books in foreign languages easily)
Additionally, I use the paid audio apps Blinkist, Audm, and Curio, which everyone has access to. I find them to be super helpful. Blinkist in particular is almost 100% of the time a YouTube and TED talk replacement for me.
Services I get access to (no-ads):
* 975,000+ books for $50/year (Bookshare.org)
* 60,000+ professionally narrated audio books for free (US National Library Service)
* 80,000+ volunteer narrated audio books for $135/year (LearningAlly.org)
* Hundreds of Newspapers and Magazines for free (NFB Newsline)
* 99% of the books posted on OpenLibrary.org for free (even books currently "borrowed")
* Virtually all libraries for print-related disabilities around the world (sometimes free, sometimes paid) (I can get books in foreign languages easily)
Additionally, I use the paid audio apps Blinkist, Audm, and Curio, which everyone has access to. I find them to be super helpful. Blinkist in particular is almost 100% of the time a YouTube and TED talk replacement for me.
If you’re curious like I was about what a “print disability” is :
A print disability is a difficulty or inability to read printed material due to a perceptual, physical or visual disability.
And https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_disability
A print disability is a difficulty or inability to read printed material due to a perceptual, physical or visual disability.
And https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_disability
I realise the irony here, but please link to non-mobile Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_disability
What an incredible list. Thanks for writing this out. I can’t wait to try some of these.
Amazing list. And, well, very apt username.
Would you be able to describe your disability in more details? I am curious about it, and I would love to hear your personal perspective.
Would you be able to describe your disability in more details? I am curious about it, and I would love to hear your personal perspective.
I have severe convergence insufficiency due to a rare immune mediated neurological disease affecting my peripheral nervous system. I see a neuro-ophthalmologist for this.
If I have more than a few paragraphs to read, I either use a screenreader with audio output or braille.
If I have more than a few paragraphs to read, I either use a screenreader with audio output or braille.
Thank you so much for the compliment! I hope you see this new comment that I am making, in addition to the old comment! If you can please upvote or respond to this, so I know that you saw it, this would be appreciated! :-)
* I should also note that if you have a digital subscription to The Economist, the entire weekly edition is professionally narrated. You can access it using the standard The Economist app.
* On Audible, if you have a PremiumPlus subscription, you get access to The New York Times Digest, which is a 30 minute audio piece published daily, which is professionally narrated
* Likewise, on Audible, if you have the PremiumPlus subscription, you get access to The Wall Street Journal Digest, which is a 25 minute audio piece published daily, which is professionally narrated.
I guess I should elaborate more on how I read.
Traditionally, my favorite way to read has been using certain screenreaders:
* PC (Windows): Kurzweil 3000 (for audio visual output) or JAWS (for braille with audio)
* iPhone and iPad (iOS): Voice Dream Reader (app) and VoiceOver (iOS accessibility tool)
I am a self-taught braille reader. Braille is the ultimate way of avoiding unnecessary distractions such as advertisements or visually stimulating "suggestions" trying to get you to buy stuff. Also, because I read linearly (both braille and audio), I notice the breakdown of conversations on sites such as Reddit (and even here), as the threads go further down the page, so I am less susceptible to bots and just falling for the distractions that social media offers. I have no social media accounts besides HackerNews.
To learn braille, I bought a Freedom Scientific Focus series refreshable braille display off of ebay secondhand for about 5% of the original list price. I have the 80-cell version, which is pretty much the largest braille display that you can get, from a pure hardware perspective.
Anyways, both JAWS (screenreader) and my Focus Blue 80 braille display are made by Freedom Scientific. Because these technologies are made by the same manufacturer, there are special features when using them in combination, that help people learning braille. On JAWS, if you have a Focus Blue series braille display, there is a special "braille learning mode" feature in JAWS. If you press the router key above any of the 80 cells (on my display), it will speak aloud the character for you. This is tremendously helpful when learning braille because if you are uncertain of what the character is via feel, you press a button (without looking--that is key to learning), and the character name is spoken aloud. Even for experienced braille learners, there are sometimes unfamiliar characters that we might come across, such as "&" which would be spoken aloud as "ampersand". So, it is helpful for anyone learning braille. This feature works for any braille code (all of them basically work with JAWS).
There is also a series of braille displays that are more commonly used in Europe, which have this feature, but in limited, more mainstream braille codes. They are the HelpTech braille displays. Ultimately, my dream setup would be the HelpTech Actilino (16 cell display) for on-the-go mobile use, an Active Braille (40 cell display for reading at home on mobile and with laptop on the go), and a Modular Evolution (88 cell display with 8-key braille [Perkins] keyboard for at home use and work use and at the desktop).
In addition to the Focus 80 Blue, I have a HIMS BrailleEdge (40 cells), which I use with my mobile phone and for on-the-go use with my laptop. I likewise got this for about 8% of the original price on ebay, secondhand, but in impeccable condition. I generally prefer to read with JAWS using braille and audio simultaneously, to reinforce learning of materials.
Sometimes I prefer audio only with some visual output (highlighting while the word and sentence are being read aloud, in different colors--green and yellow--respectively) or professional narration, when I want to relax, though. Also, when I drive, I listen to the newspaper.
Recently, instead of using Kurzweil 3000 ($400/year) for audio visual output, I have been using Dolphin EasyReader ($50 one-time purchase) for reading books when I do not want to use braille. It is basically effectively the same thing as Kurzweil 3000 except that it does not have a "Read the Web Feature" and math documents are poorly supported. For reading the internet and editing documents, I use Nextup TextAloud, which has the same multimodal highlighting feature for sentences and words, except in browser mode.
In browser (Firefox) mode, TextAloud only highlights the word being read aloud, in the color of your choice. However, you can generally export webpages as PDFs/Pocket/Instapaper and open it up in either TextAloud or Dolphin EasyReader, unless it is a copyrighted news source that I do not have access to via NFB Newsline. This happens very rarely, and in that case, I just use Textaloud in browser.
You can load SAPI5 voices of your choice to your Windows machine, and they will work 100% fully supported in both TextAloud and Dolphin EasyReader.
The best voices are the Cerence Deep Learning voices. The best one for text-to-speech, if you just want to listen to audio only with no text support (such as when driving) is Conversational Zoe - DL (see: https://nextup.com/cerence/) which is purely amazing.
In fact, I go on to NFB Newsline every morning, download my local newspaper, save it as a text file, and use a wrapper script (https://pypi.org/project/pyttsx3/) to make it into an mp3 file, which I upload to Dropbox for listening throughout the day, later in the day.
Alternatively, I can copy/paste text into TextAloud and save it as an audio file using Conversational Zoe Deep Learning SAPI5 voice. But, the wrapper is far more efficient.
Accessible math is not supported well in TextAloud or Dolphin Easyreader, unlike Kurzweil 3000. I am a graduate electrical engineering student, and to make my math texts accessible, via optical character recognition (OCR), I use either MathPix (preferred) (https://MathPix.com) or InftyReader (https://www.inftyreader.org/).
When taking notes, I also type up math notes in a braille code, using a braille keyboard in a code called LAMBDA braille, which converts to the same standard OCR format via a specialized software that I use called LAMBDA 2.0 (https://www.lambdaproject.org/).
Anyways, once the math material is in MathML format either via specialized braille formatting, MathPix, or InftyReader, I create the "math speech rules" using this package (https://github.com/zorkow/speech-rule-engine) with a short script I wrote.
After I do that, I likewise feed the output file with the speech math speech rules into the other wrapper script I listed (pyttsx3) in order to create the MP3 of the math document.
Anyways, the math part may sound complicated, but it is legitimately awesome! I have the best cheat sheets (permitted) on exams and the best notes of my peers! Everyone is jealous of my notes! Anyways, I also break down the MathML documents into smaller fragments, and make them into Anki flashcards, which is the ultimate study tool.
Sorry this is all over the place, but I can assure you that while having a print-related disability may have its challenges, you adapt and sometimes you can even be the envy of your peers!
* I should also note that if you have a digital subscription to The Economist, the entire weekly edition is professionally narrated. You can access it using the standard The Economist app.
* On Audible, if you have a PremiumPlus subscription, you get access to The New York Times Digest, which is a 30 minute audio piece published daily, which is professionally narrated
* Likewise, on Audible, if you have the PremiumPlus subscription, you get access to The Wall Street Journal Digest, which is a 25 minute audio piece published daily, which is professionally narrated.
I guess I should elaborate more on how I read.
Traditionally, my favorite way to read has been using certain screenreaders:
* PC (Windows): Kurzweil 3000 (for audio visual output) or JAWS (for braille with audio)
* iPhone and iPad (iOS): Voice Dream Reader (app) and VoiceOver (iOS accessibility tool)
I am a self-taught braille reader. Braille is the ultimate way of avoiding unnecessary distractions such as advertisements or visually stimulating "suggestions" trying to get you to buy stuff. Also, because I read linearly (both braille and audio), I notice the breakdown of conversations on sites such as Reddit (and even here), as the threads go further down the page, so I am less susceptible to bots and just falling for the distractions that social media offers. I have no social media accounts besides HackerNews.
To learn braille, I bought a Freedom Scientific Focus series refreshable braille display off of ebay secondhand for about 5% of the original list price. I have the 80-cell version, which is pretty much the largest braille display that you can get, from a pure hardware perspective.
Anyways, both JAWS (screenreader) and my Focus Blue 80 braille display are made by Freedom Scientific. Because these technologies are made by the same manufacturer, there are special features when using them in combination, that help people learning braille. On JAWS, if you have a Focus Blue series braille display, there is a special "braille learning mode" feature in JAWS. If you press the router key above any of the 80 cells (on my display), it will speak aloud the character for you. This is tremendously helpful when learning braille because if you are uncertain of what the character is via feel, you press a button (without looking--that is key to learning), and the character name is spoken aloud. Even for experienced braille learners, there are sometimes unfamiliar characters that we might come across, such as "&" which would be spoken aloud as "ampersand". So, it is helpful for anyone learning braille. This feature works for any braille code (all of them basically work with JAWS).
There is also a series of braille displays that are more commonly used in Europe, which have this feature, but in limited, more mainstream braille codes. They are the HelpTech braille displays. Ultimately, my dream setup would be the HelpTech Actilino (16 cell display) for on-the-go mobile use, an Active Braille (40 cell display for reading at home on mobile and with laptop on the go), and a Modular Evolution (88 cell display with 8-key braille [Perkins] keyboard for at home use and work use and at the desktop).
In addition to the Focus 80 Blue, I have a HIMS BrailleEdge (40 cells), which I use with my mobile phone and for on-the-go use with my laptop. I likewise got this for about 8% of the original price on ebay, secondhand, but in impeccable condition. I generally prefer to read with JAWS using braille and audio simultaneously, to reinforce learning of materials.
Sometimes I prefer audio only with some visual output (highlighting while the word and sentence are being read aloud, in different colors--green and yellow--respectively) or professional narration, when I want to relax, though. Also, when I drive, I listen to the newspaper.
Recently, instead of using Kurzweil 3000 ($400/year) for audio visual output, I have been using Dolphin EasyReader ($50 one-time purchase) for reading books when I do not want to use braille. It is basically effectively the same thing as Kurzweil 3000 except that it does not have a "Read the Web Feature" and math documents are poorly supported. For reading the internet and editing documents, I use Nextup TextAloud, which has the same multimodal highlighting feature for sentences and words, except in browser mode.
In browser (Firefox) mode, TextAloud only highlights the word being read aloud, in the color of your choice. However, you can generally export webpages as PDFs/Pocket/Instapaper and open it up in either TextAloud or Dolphin EasyReader, unless it is a copyrighted news source that I do not have access to via NFB Newsline. This happens very rarely, and in that case, I just use Textaloud in browser.
You can load SAPI5 voices of your choice to your Windows machine, and they will work 100% fully supported in both TextAloud and Dolphin EasyReader.
The best voices are the Cerence Deep Learning voices. The best one for text-to-speech, if you just want to listen to audio only with no text support (such as when driving) is Conversational Zoe - DL (see: https://nextup.com/cerence/) which is purely amazing.
In fact, I go on to NFB Newsline every morning, download my local newspaper, save it as a text file, and use a wrapper script (https://pypi.org/project/pyttsx3/) to make it into an mp3 file, which I upload to Dropbox for listening throughout the day, later in the day.
Alternatively, I can copy/paste text into TextAloud and save it as an audio file using Conversational Zoe Deep Learning SAPI5 voice. But, the wrapper is far more efficient.
Accessible math is not supported well in TextAloud or Dolphin Easyreader, unlike Kurzweil 3000. I am a graduate electrical engineering student, and to make my math texts accessible, via optical character recognition (OCR), I use either MathPix (preferred) (https://MathPix.com) or InftyReader (https://www.inftyreader.org/).
When taking notes, I also type up math notes in a braille code, using a braille keyboard in a code called LAMBDA braille, which converts to the same standard OCR format via a specialized software that I use called LAMBDA 2.0 (https://www.lambdaproject.org/).
Anyways, once the math material is in MathML format either via specialized braille formatting, MathPix, or InftyReader, I create the "math speech rules" using this package (https://github.com/zorkow/speech-rule-engine) with a short script I wrote.
After I do that, I likewise feed the output file with the speech math speech rules into the other wrapper script I listed (pyttsx3) in order to create the MP3 of the math document.
Anyways, the math part may sound complicated, but it is legitimately awesome! I have the best cheat sheets (permitted) on exams and the best notes of my peers! Everyone is jealous of my notes! Anyways, I also break down the MathML documents into smaller fragments, and make them into Anki flashcards, which is the ultimate study tool.
Sorry this is all over the place, but I can assure you that while having a print-related disability may have its challenges, you adapt and sometimes you can even be the envy of your peers!
Not to be confused with: www.books-share(.)com
Which is part of a large mobile ad fraud operation
I have reported that site and others to IC3
Which is part of a large mobile ad fraud operation
I have reported that site and others to IC3
I never had ads on my Wordpress blog. It loads fast and does not track you (not even Jetpack is installed), only embedded YT videos probably do.
Instead of trying to make money on ads, I simply ask readers to contribute to an open account, or buy some books of mine.
It works well, does not annoy people and there is zero dependence on major ad providers that might drop you one day without explanation (because you published something that offended their sensibilities or for any other cryptic reason).
Instead of trying to make money on ads, I simply ask readers to contribute to an open account, or buy some books of mine.
It works well, does not annoy people and there is zero dependence on major ad providers that might drop you one day without explanation (because you published something that offended their sensibilities or for any other cryptic reason).
What we need is to raise the price of ads. Saturation causes desensitization anyway, ads will be more impressionable if they are more sparse. But as long as the online ads ecosystem is completely owned by one entity, there's not going to be a change.
Ads considered harmful. Don't let random companies spy on and mindhack your readers. It devalues your reputation and is not a humane way to treat people.
Don't know why you are getting downvoted. You and I may disagree on a lot of things, but this is one thing where I have come to see you are correct, and moreso over time.
> mindhack
Interesting, never thought about it from that perspective.
Interesting, never thought about it from that perspective.
I always liked the way http://dodiy.org/ does ads. When you're a sponsor the author of the site draws it by hand and its hosted directly on the site for however much time agreed. The drawing by hand part is obviously not for everyone, but the idea is that the ads fit the aesthetic of the site, sort of like a podcast host doing their own take on ad copy.