Ask HN: Are my web dev skills still relevant?
I'm an older C# and wordpress dev looking for work. It seems interviewers want me to know my stuff backwards and forwards now. I'm fine with that, but I don't know what to aim for. I've always just built stuff; never saw a need to memorize C# in its entirety or study big O notation to CSS better. Has the nature of the actual work changed drastically or is this merely a matter of interviews evolving to a crazy competitive level? For context it's been seven years since I've gone through this process.
33 comments
I can't speak from the point of view, directly, as a current web dev, but I'm 100% confident that the landscape has completely changed -- from the point of view of someone who looks at, evaluates, prototypes in new stacks all the time, and product/project-managed modern web stacks.
I complain here and everywhere about the insane complexity in modern-day web app dev.
The truth is that, after you learn the 20 new tools/technologies you'll need to become semi-competent in only one stack, it won't seem like such a massive shift anymore.
I think competition is not that fierce -- honestly speaking as I can -- but that's for corporate jobs, etc.
And you _have_ to be competent or good or really good if you're older.
Else, you're just going to sound...like you sound -- old and washed up.
Not saying you are, or I am, but once you're 25+, if you bring the 'Get off my lawn' vibe, your 27-yo manager-to-be is gonna smell it a mile away, and he's gonna be feeling awkward enough already.
So I think you can be fine, but you gotta actually know what you're doing, and you have to get/be modern.
I complain here and everywhere about the insane complexity in modern-day web app dev.
The truth is that, after you learn the 20 new tools/technologies you'll need to become semi-competent in only one stack, it won't seem like such a massive shift anymore.
I think competition is not that fierce -- honestly speaking as I can -- but that's for corporate jobs, etc.
And you _have_ to be competent or good or really good if you're older.
Else, you're just going to sound...like you sound -- old and washed up.
Not saying you are, or I am, but once you're 25+, if you bring the 'Get off my lawn' vibe, your 27-yo manager-to-be is gonna smell it a mile away, and he's gonna be feeling awkward enough already.
So I think you can be fine, but you gotta actually know what you're doing, and you have to get/be modern.
Is ageism really that bad at the companies where you all work? Dang. Can't imagine working someplace where turning 26 puts you at risk of sounding old and washed up.
If a place has 27 year old managers floating around in turtlenecks and preaching everyone how their eco-friendly-furniture-plant-sharing-tech-corp will change the world, you probably realise it's not a good place to work anyways..
I think he's exaggerating. The workplaces I've seen aren't nearly that bad (and definitely don't have 27 year old managers).
I took a contract once at a mobile handset mfgr that had this. This sysadmin-cum-manager dude (with zero previous management exp) thought he was hot sh*t because of his title. Dude was robotic/patronizing fake, arrogant, useless, and just got in the way. He thought his role was to unsolicited "coach" mission statement BS and insult my intelligence.
Oddly enough, I was fired from that gig for witnessing a senior manager repeatedly mute the conference call to make racist remarks about overseas staff.
Oddly enough, I was fired from that gig for witnessing a senior manager repeatedly mute the conference call to make racist remarks about overseas staff.
> for witnessing a senior manager repeatedly mute the conference call to make racist remarks about overseas staff.
This sounds like the perfect opportunity to have your phone in your shirt pocket such that the camera just barely peeks above the cuff of that pocket. As long as you are in a one-party-consent region (most states, all of Canada), you can have some pretty juicy stuff that HR can make “go away” with a golden parachute of sufficient size.
This sounds like the perfect opportunity to have your phone in your shirt pocket such that the camera just barely peeks above the cuff of that pocket. As long as you are in a one-party-consent region (most states, all of Canada), you can have some pretty juicy stuff that HR can make “go away” with a golden parachute of sufficient size.
Sadly, it was in a two-party consent state. ):
I'm now in a one-party consent state and have a trusty-dusty digital audio recorder.
I'm now in a one-party consent state and have a trusty-dusty digital audio recorder.
I’d be on a conference call to a lawyer as soon as my feet hit the street.
I think it's an attitude thing more than anything. Many people I meet think I'm 10 years younger and refuse to believe otherwise. It's fun to come in as the instructor and everyone thinks I'm the student.
But it's more that if you come in and say that MySQL and PHP is good enough for everything, you're going to sound washed up. It might be true, but it's not good team chemistry when everyone wants to do one thing and one person keeps pulling them back. You don't even have to be 40 for this; 26 is "old" enough.
But it's more that if you come in and say that MySQL and PHP is good enough for everything, you're going to sound washed up. It might be true, but it's not good team chemistry when everyone wants to do one thing and one person keeps pulling them back. You don't even have to be 40 for this; 26 is "old" enough.
Plenty of companies where it's not like this...
> Get off my lawn
xD
I'm a 43 yo autodidact + BS EE/CS. Haven't had a problem except for resume gaps when doing side-hustles and unnamed startup consulting for too long, HR at shops raise their eyebrows. When it gets to in-person interviewing, I may have a leg over with ~10 years of neanimorphism, look somewhat between a neohippie artist and an idle trustfunder (definitely neither, LOL!), and (obnoxious bragging here) date college students which might help with youthful-seeming attitude.
Oh and worked on nuclear reactor simulators, infosec research, compilers, industrial mining embedded systems, HPC biomedical informatics, and just about every permutation of AWS/hybrid cloud startup scaling (Prod Eng/SRE). Rust, Haskell, C, Ruby, TS/Elm, and so on.
There's always learning, new approaches, and shifting standards to handle.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't.
Buying into one's own ego / being the office jerk are the biggest enemies in high-productivity tech. Relentlessly resourceful go-givers tend to win out in the long-term as the most valuable employees because the big name celebrity rockstar whatever tends to write checks their hubris can't cash.
xD
I'm a 43 yo autodidact + BS EE/CS. Haven't had a problem except for resume gaps when doing side-hustles and unnamed startup consulting for too long, HR at shops raise their eyebrows. When it gets to in-person interviewing, I may have a leg over with ~10 years of neanimorphism, look somewhat between a neohippie artist and an idle trustfunder (definitely neither, LOL!), and (obnoxious bragging here) date college students which might help with youthful-seeming attitude.
Oh and worked on nuclear reactor simulators, infosec research, compilers, industrial mining embedded systems, HPC biomedical informatics, and just about every permutation of AWS/hybrid cloud startup scaling (Prod Eng/SRE). Rust, Haskell, C, Ruby, TS/Elm, and so on.
There's always learning, new approaches, and shifting standards to handle.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't.
Buying into one's own ego / being the office jerk are the biggest enemies in high-productivity tech. Relentlessly resourceful go-givers tend to win out in the long-term as the most valuable employees because the big name celebrity rockstar whatever tends to write checks their hubris can't cash.
Lol I think you mean "a leg up" a leg over is something quite different :)
> I complain here and everywhere about the insane complexity in modern-day web app dev.
As a frontend dev, I don't think complexity is the issue. I _love_ the new tools at my disposal and am grateful that time has done away with many issues we used to have, such as poor cross-browser compatibility.
Rather, I think the main problem has to do with layers. The bottom layers - the hardware, the kernel - they just work. It's the topmost layers that are the problem - there's a constant battle with dependencies, configurations and tools.
I'm sure that a lot of this frustration would go away if people weren't forced to do yak-shaving every time they wanted to develop an app.
As a frontend dev, I don't think complexity is the issue. I _love_ the new tools at my disposal and am grateful that time has done away with many issues we used to have, such as poor cross-browser compatibility.
Rather, I think the main problem has to do with layers. The bottom layers - the hardware, the kernel - they just work. It's the topmost layers that are the problem - there's a constant battle with dependencies, configurations and tools.
I'm sure that a lot of this frustration would go away if people weren't forced to do yak-shaving every time they wanted to develop an app.
One of my gripes with web development is that it looks like its primary driven by fads.
A LOT of companies change the whole stack just to copy the latest gimmick they’ve seen somewhere else.
Devs need to be constantly relearning how to do basic things, so you either chose some tech and hope it gets popular, or you get to know a lot of frameworks only superficially, which leaves a lot of the internet broken.
A LOT of companies change the whole stack just to copy the latest gimmick they’ve seen somewhere else.
Devs need to be constantly relearning how to do basic things, so you either chose some tech and hope it gets popular, or you get to know a lot of frameworks only superficially, which leaves a lot of the internet broken.
I see this as a common sentiment, but I don't see it IRL.
SPAs aren't a fad anymore; instead, they're the norm.
Web development over the past 3 years has majorly stabilised compared to the last 10 as a whole.
Want to work on the frontend? React. It's everywhere and can't be considered 'just a fad' in 2021.
Backend? Wrap your head around REST and you'll be fine with most languages (C# with .net core is very common, although often underpaid in my experience).
SPAs aren't a fad anymore; instead, they're the norm.
Web development over the past 3 years has majorly stabilised compared to the last 10 as a whole.
Want to work on the frontend? React. It's everywhere and can't be considered 'just a fad' in 2021.
Backend? Wrap your head around REST and you'll be fine with most languages (C# with .net core is very common, although often underpaid in my experience).
> I see this as a common sentiment, but I don't see it IRL.
It might be true, I’m definitely not an expert, I do embedded in C mostly, but I’m always curious to learn the stacks used in each company I get in. Everywhere I go, there’s a completely different one, and all of the leads talk to me about moving to something shinny soon.
It might be true, I’m definitely not an expert, I do embedded in C mostly, but I’m always curious to learn the stacks used in each company I get in. Everywhere I go, there’s a completely different one, and all of the leads talk to me about moving to something shinny soon.
The trick with web dev is to learn what can’t be a fad: http, networking, security, browser apis, vanilla JS / DOM, svg, SEO maybe, devops maybe, docker maybe,
performance profiling, debugging skills,
relational databases. Then learn frameworks on the job as they vary from job to job although I think React and typescript are fine to regard as core non fad skills in 2021
Don't think this is very accurate. If I'm wrong, please cite a real-world example.
My last two places would implement new stuff but in very isolated areas and certainly never "the whole stack".
My last two places would implement new stuff but in very isolated areas and certainly never "the whole stack".
How do these companies survive? I can't imagine re-writing your code base on a whim translates to increased revenue.
Tech interviews have been horribly broken for at least a decade now. They've been mostly broken for a couple decades. Fortunately I haven't had to talk to a recruiter for a job since 1998 and hopefully I never will again. Maybe call up some people you worked with before and see if their company is hiring. They most likely are.
Anyway, C# is still very relevant, but it depends on location. In my city, it's huge, in others, not so much. I tend to stick to back end work rather than front end work. Front end's flavor of the day changes way too often, and I find it to be tedious work. Back end is much less reliant on external libraries and therefore doesn't change as rapidly, and to me is much closer to actual programming.
So in summary, talk to your prior colleagues, stick to back end work (if that's your bag). Keep on truckin'
Anyway, C# is still very relevant, but it depends on location. In my city, it's huge, in others, not so much. I tend to stick to back end work rather than front end work. Front end's flavor of the day changes way too often, and I find it to be tedious work. Back end is much less reliant on external libraries and therefore doesn't change as rapidly, and to me is much closer to actual programming.
So in summary, talk to your prior colleagues, stick to back end work (if that's your bag). Keep on truckin'
>In my city, it's huge, in others, not so much
Presumably the area of WA where Microsoft resides.
if C# is not huge in other places, what is? (genuinely curious)
Good wordpress developers are in great demand. If you find the right clients, you can earn above average the market standards.
About your skills, There are many new trends in tech in last decade. Since you have worked withe web, I will suggest you to start with HTML5, CSS3 and Javascript's new features which you may already be knowing.
Start learning server side js. Node.js is bit confusing if you are old folks but see some tutorials and follow them, start with light framework like Express and make small app. The benefit of node.js is you can share many modules at both server and client sides if needed[though beware of it].
Alternatively if you want to stick to PHP, the easiest will be to start with codeigniter and when you feel likes getting grip move to Laravel. Laravel is in great demand. Learn to use it with docker.
About your skills, There are many new trends in tech in last decade. Since you have worked withe web, I will suggest you to start with HTML5, CSS3 and Javascript's new features which you may already be knowing.
Start learning server side js. Node.js is bit confusing if you are old folks but see some tutorials and follow them, start with light framework like Express and make small app. The benefit of node.js is you can share many modules at both server and client sides if needed[though beware of it].
Alternatively if you want to stick to PHP, the easiest will be to start with codeigniter and when you feel likes getting grip move to Laravel. Laravel is in great demand. Learn to use it with docker.
It is a mix of all of it. It has changed a bit since there are more of a talent pool than ever before. Also, positions that used to have multiple engineers are now replaced by one, both my tech improvements and "budgeting". With that change you are required to know more than ever before, and a way they weed you out is having insanely hard interviews that a lot of times don't reflect the work you do(that is changing a bit as some companies are doing project based interviews). I recommend looking at "Cracking the coding interview"/leet code to help you pass those interviews.
This is reflective of where you are applying to, some smaller places as much emphasis, but it all depends on who your interviewer and how they choose to weed out employees.
Skew your resume toward you as a "solution builder" or "online business builder" vs. wordpress or PHP developer of which are dime a dozen.
Building successful solutions and helping to evolve a business is inherently more valuable skill to the guy who signs a checks.
If he is smart enough he is less care about technology you know at this given moment but more about you passion, inspiration and ability to help the business grow and learn new fad along the way if needed.
If you're facing overzealous interviewers nitpicking your coding skills or short cycled in forcing you to solve stupid puzzles in record short time - it is likely there is a disconnect within this organization on what is really important and you'll be wasting your valuable time agreeing to work there.
Building successful solutions and helping to evolve a business is inherently more valuable skill to the guy who signs a checks.
If he is smart enough he is less care about technology you know at this given moment but more about you passion, inspiration and ability to help the business grow and learn new fad along the way if needed.
If you're facing overzealous interviewers nitpicking your coding skills or short cycled in forcing you to solve stupid puzzles in record short time - it is likely there is a disconnect within this organization on what is really important and you'll be wasting your valuable time agreeing to work there.
this meme[1] translates perfectly the current state of tech interviews
[1]https://starecat.com/the-technical-interview-vs-the-actual-j...
[1]https://starecat.com/the-technical-interview-vs-the-actual-j...
The landscape has shifted a little, but you can still find plenty of C# and WordPress openings. In my opinion, the biggest difference is the expectation to have experience in React, Angular, or Vue. Frontend complexity has grown a lot in the past seven years.
"WordPress dev"
Your skills are very relevant at least with WP. Are you not looking for WP jobs ?
Your skills are very relevant at least with WP. Are you not looking for WP jobs ?
This. I can’t understate that, despite its reputation and general mockery from HN commenters, good WordPress dev skills beyond theming (and even theming in some cases) are deeply valuable in the job market if you’re looking in the right places. There is also a lot of variety, from agency work to companies who specialize in specific WordPress plugins.
The way it was put to me is the modern tech interview is to the job as the SAT is to college. They don’t require the same skills, and performance in one isn’t terribly predictive of success in the other.
Do not doubt yourself based on your interview performance. If it’s something you care about and you have the time, do your test prep properly: big O, tree traversals, etc. etc. etc.
I’ll add that as a primarily functional programmer who’s applied for multi-paradigm jobs, I’d say a lot of the answers I’ve been expected to give were quite absurd.
Do not doubt yourself based on your interview performance. If it’s something you care about and you have the time, do your test prep properly: big O, tree traversals, etc. etc. etc.
I’ll add that as a primarily functional programmer who’s applied for multi-paradigm jobs, I’d say a lot of the answers I’ve been expected to give were quite absurd.
Main goal of most good interviewers is simple — hire smart developer.
Algorithms is one way of achieving this goal (another question if it’s good way).
Since CSS knowledge (and honestly wordpress) is not a big deal (you don’t have to be smart to learn them) — make sense that interviewers asking you a lot of stuff.
Algorithms is one way of achieving this goal (another question if it’s good way).
Since CSS knowledge (and honestly wordpress) is not a big deal (you don’t have to be smart to learn them) — make sense that interviewers asking you a lot of stuff.
Are you willing to continually learn?
Can you complete projects of at a minimum, small size?
Then, yes.
Can you complete projects of at a minimum, small size?
Then, yes.