Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit(tinyprojects.dev)
tinyprojects.dev
Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit
https://tinyprojects.dev/posts/selling_tiny_internet_projects_for_fun_and_profit
147 comments
Can you post a password protected zip then?
Might as well have them pay in advance, no? It's not a way to transfer a whole operational web application, in any case.
For relatively "small" amount of money, I totally agree. However, from my experience selling a tiny project [1], buyers were reluctant to transfer in advance even sums that are below $10K. Therefore we also used Escrow.com..
[1] I wrote more about my experience in my ebook - https://gum.co/side-project
[1] I wrote more about my experience in my ebook - https://gum.co/side-project
That is how escrow works in other contexts, like real estate. Either both parties agree, or the escrow service holds it until it is resolved through the courts.
Thats how it's supposed to work.
I was in a similar situation to the parent commenter. The buyer had deposited the funds into Escrow.com and received their assets. I notified Escrow.com that the business assets had been handed over and they awaited the response from the buyer - which never came.
Escrow.com sends notices after 3, 7, and 10 days of inactivity.
After 15 days the buyer requested a cancellation and Escrow.com notified me via email that I had 48 hours to provide proof that "the domain" had been transferred or the transaction would be cancelled and the buyer would received their funds back.
My issue was that there was no domain transfer associated with this purchase. The buyer was receiving software that they intended to use under a new brand and thus had no use for the domain.
I raised hell with Escrow.com. Calls, emails, assurances that someone would get back to me. The cancellation came on a Friday and no one contacted me until Tuesday. They called to ask if I had spoke to the buyer and then politely explained that they couldn't do anything because there was no domain attached to the sale.
I was in a similar situation to the parent commenter. The buyer had deposited the funds into Escrow.com and received their assets. I notified Escrow.com that the business assets had been handed over and they awaited the response from the buyer - which never came.
Escrow.com sends notices after 3, 7, and 10 days of inactivity.
After 15 days the buyer requested a cancellation and Escrow.com notified me via email that I had 48 hours to provide proof that "the domain" had been transferred or the transaction would be cancelled and the buyer would received their funds back.
My issue was that there was no domain transfer associated with this purchase. The buyer was receiving software that they intended to use under a new brand and thus had no use for the domain.
I raised hell with Escrow.com. Calls, emails, assurances that someone would get back to me. The cancellation came on a Friday and no one contacted me until Tuesday. They called to ask if I had spoke to the buyer and then politely explained that they couldn't do anything because there was no domain attached to the sale.
> Which would mean the only real protection Escrow gives is against the buyer going bankrupt (or using false identity, I suppose).
Well, the buyer is out of the money in any case, which is a pretty big protection.
Well, the buyer is out of the money in any case, which is a pretty big protection.
No. The buyer got his assets. You are out of money.
The buyer as well. But the buyer technically has "paid" so they may not be as concerned with closing out the transaction. If only the assets could be held in escrow as well, then when both elements are held by the escrow group, they can release to the appropriate parties.
Domain names can be held in escrow by escrow.com. So theoretically it's possible to at least get that part back if the transaction goes south.
I should have been more clear.
It's not a matter of whether it's possible but whether the seller had the foresight to use the service in such a capacity.
Because at the end of the day, an escrow is a trusted third party used to facilitate a trade. We typically think of them in terms of money because that's typically what they hold, but there's no good reason they can't be trusted with any good.
It's not a matter of whether it's possible but whether the seller had the foresight to use the service in such a capacity.
Because at the end of the day, an escrow is a trusted third party used to facilitate a trade. We typically think of them in terms of money because that's typically what they hold, but there's no good reason they can't be trusted with any good.
have to agree here
escrow.com is a licensed escrow operator.
This is how it works, they don't get to just decide the outcome or they'll get shutdown during their audits.
This is a good thing in transacting on the internet.
This is how it works, they don't get to just decide the outcome or they'll get shutdown during their audits.
This is a good thing in transacting on the internet.
Does escrow licensing not allow for a "transaction closed in 3 months or assets released to original owner" contracts?
I'm pretty sure it does, actually. They just need a clear flow chart and then for people to not want to change it after the fact.
[deleted]
Should release by default when there is no dispute.
probably the 'licensed' in licensed escrow operator disallows this.
[deleted]
Would a smart contract help avoid this kind of situation?
Yup. Just need to specify the conditions of what "done" or "delivered" looks like. After that it's basically:
if (delivered) pay();How do you encode that a website and assets have been delivered? It doesn't seem so obvious.
wooosh
Ha, I see it now. Too dry and too early (in the morning)
The funny thing is that a couple of comments up 2 sibling comments basically gave the exact same answer, but one in jest and one seriously. The cryptosphere really is beyond parody
Ha ha. This reminds me of an old project / library [0] I built based on a Quora answer. I wrote libraries for Android and iOS, also wrote a simple server component which could be installed on Heroku with a single click. At the start of the app, it would contact the server for payment status. If server indicated that payment has been made, it would function like normal. If not, it would just crash.
I never used it in any of my projects nor I know anyone using it. I just had an itch of learning Clojure and building libraries for android, and iOS, so I made them.
[0] - https://github.com/avinassh/little-finger
I never used it in any of my projects nor I know anyone using it. I just had an itch of learning Clojure and building libraries for android, and iOS, so I made them.
[0] - https://github.com/avinassh/little-finger
> Just need to specify the conditions of what "done" or "delivered" looks like
Since it's "just" so simple, can you better explain what those done/delivered conditions might look like? And preferably how that would also be more secure than Escrow.com?
Since it's "just" so simple, can you better explain what those done/delivered conditions might look like? And preferably how that would also be more secure than Escrow.com?
Yes, if you had an oracle [1] that was able to provide information on whether the transaction had completed.
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain_oracle
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain_oracle
Germany's biggest Craigslist-like service recently added a service like this for purchases that are shipped. I sold my previous MacBook using the system and found it really stressful to wait for the buyer to confirm the item. In my case, it was just someone who was a little bit slow and just forgot, but I can imagine abuse in the system. Same thing happens with PayPal buyer's protection.
I can't think of a better system though, to be honest.
I can't think of a better system though, to be honest.
Yeah, other than having someone manually inspecting the transfer, that's kind of the best way.
I've noticed that most sites end up implementing "automatic confirmation", but after a while they shorten the confirmation deadline because lots of buyers just "forget" to approve.
I've also seen others (MercadoLibre) who have a "reputation" for sellers where they can get the money even before confirmation.
I've noticed that most sites end up implementing "automatic confirmation", but after a while they shorten the confirmation deadline because lots of buyers just "forget" to approve.
I've also seen others (MercadoLibre) who have a "reputation" for sellers where they can get the money even before confirmation.
Mercari and Poshmark work the same way (they do release funds after a default amount of time if there's no response)
A better system would have some agreed upon holding period. Two weeks perhaps? Enough time at least that the buyer has received the goods. As much as I hate Paypal, that's essentially what they do. They hold the funds until they've confirmed the item was delivered.
No, a better system would give the buyer incentive to release funds in a timely fashion while still offering the escrow company incentive to implement. Maybe you pay escrow 110% of the cost, you get 10% back when you release funds, 5% if you take more than 10 days, 1% after that.
What's the name of the service? I suppose you're not thinking of ebay kleinanzeigen, or?
Not the parent, but I think they do actually mean eBay Kleinanzeigen. A few months ago they added a service like this but afaik it’s still in beta and also not available for all categories yet.
Sorry for the extremely late reply! I do actually mean Ebay Kleinanzeigen. I don't know when they added it, but it's called "Sicher bezahlen".
[deleted]
According to their FAQ, funds are automatically released after the inspection period.
The inspection period can last for up to 30 days, and is agreed upon by all parties at the beginning of the transaction.
https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-if-the-buyer-forget...
https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-is-an-inspection-pe...
The inspection period can last for up to 30 days, and is agreed upon by all parties at the beginning of the transaction.
https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-if-the-buyer-forget...
https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-is-an-inspection-pe...
The buyer has to mark the items as received for the inspection period to start.
So this issue implies that there is a startup idea? I think there is a technical approach to solve the issue, by providing a system to let the escrow service provider to inspect and confirm the transferring of the source code, something like using a remote desktop (something like a temporary VPS) to where both the seller and the buyer have access, and during the delivering of the source code, the seller upload the code, compile it and run the result, and all the process is recorded. That way, if the buyer don't mark as 'received' in a given period, the platform staff can check and confirm the delivery and close the transaction.
> So this issue implies that there is a startup idea?
It's definitely a do things that don't scale idea. You need humans in the transaction confirming what's actually occurring. That tends to be expensive, because you also need them to know what they're doing, understand the broad details of the exchange and be trustworthy. That cost and difficulty of scaling is exactly why Escrow.com doesn't try to do it for every transaction across their system.
It's definitely a do things that don't scale idea. You need humans in the transaction confirming what's actually occurring. That tends to be expensive, because you also need them to know what they're doing, understand the broad details of the exchange and be trustworthy. That cost and difficulty of scaling is exactly why Escrow.com doesn't try to do it for every transaction across their system.
The way you deal with this in international trade is by putting up a irrevocable letter of credit, which against documentary proof (I.e. proof of quality and shipment) will release the sums. This have worked for millennia.
Buyer: I think I could come up to maybe $7500 but that’s about it. .. then later: Buyer: Ok at $10,500 we have a deal.
I've sold a few projects in my time, but this conversation makes me think I should really look at having an agent represent me in future. The whole "I can only offer $7500" but then that turned into a $10500 sale just goes over my head - the communications skills needed are next level, and I've read Getting to Yes and such books :-) Maybe having someone less emotionally attached to a project could work in negotiations to increase the price to far more than cover their fee?
I've sold a few projects in my time, but this conversation makes me think I should really look at having an agent represent me in future. The whole "I can only offer $7500" but then that turned into a $10500 sale just goes over my head - the communications skills needed are next level, and I've read Getting to Yes and such books :-) Maybe having someone less emotionally attached to a project could work in negotiations to increase the price to far more than cover their fee?
In reality it's much easier. I've sold couple of my projects before via different mediums (one is through microacquire - the one OP mentioned, and one was through a connect), and the best way i found to go about it is to be ready to walk away from the deal.
I know this is negotiations 101, but it's tough to put it in practice most of the time if one person wants a little bit more to see the transaction through. Surprisingly, communications skill doesn't play that big of a role, unless you really want to "sell it" most of the conversations goes the same way OP mentioned.
I know this is negotiations 101, but it's tough to put it in practice most of the time if one person wants a little bit more to see the transaction through. Surprisingly, communications skill doesn't play that big of a role, unless you really want to "sell it" most of the conversations goes the same way OP mentioned.
Another great way is to make sure there are multiple prospect buyers and have them bid against each other.
On the flip side, an agent is motivated to close the deal not necessarily get the highest price. If the agent gets 10% cut, they get $750 or $1050. Is $300 worth potentially souring the deal?
That's a common complaint about seller's agents in real estate.
Unsure what the solution is. A seller can, of course, say that they refuse to sell for under $X, though that could potentially still be leaving money on the table if the buyer might have been willing to offer $X+Y.
Unsure what the solution is. A seller can, of course, say that they refuse to sell for under $X, though that could potentially still be leaving money on the table if the buyer might have been willing to offer $X+Y.
I think one better way to handle commissions for home sales is to have no commission for the first $x of the price. X being a price that it would be very easy to sell at, a price low enough that the property would just immediately sell without much effort because it is too low. Then apply a much larger commission percentage to the amount it sells for above that "easy sale" price. That way, the seller and the agent actually have more closely aligned incentives and thus motivation for the agent to try and get that last $5k, or whatever.
Have you negotiated this?
Or have you ever seen an agent offer this?
To explain the issue in detail for others that don’t understand the dynamics:
A flat percentage is the standard where I live. Selling agents are only incentivised to get as many sales through as quickly as possible, and the agent will deceive and cheat to achieve that goal. Selling 20 homes at 5% discount is almost double the earnings (commissions) for the agent than selling 10 homes.
Agents make wayyyy more by selling more houses quickly than they ever could by spending more time selling each home to get a few percent more.
Yet the person selling the home really really cares about that few percent because their home is often highly leveraged: if they have paid 20% of principal and get 1% more from the sale, that is actually 5% extra return (which can easily be equivalent to avoiding many extra years of work before a home is paid off).
Or have you ever seen an agent offer this?
To explain the issue in detail for others that don’t understand the dynamics:
A flat percentage is the standard where I live. Selling agents are only incentivised to get as many sales through as quickly as possible, and the agent will deceive and cheat to achieve that goal. Selling 20 homes at 5% discount is almost double the earnings (commissions) for the agent than selling 10 homes.
Agents make wayyyy more by selling more houses quickly than they ever could by spending more time selling each home to get a few percent more.
Yet the person selling the home really really cares about that few percent because their home is often highly leveraged: if they have paid 20% of principal and get 1% more from the sale, that is actually 5% extra return (which can easily be equivalent to avoiding many extra years of work before a home is paid off).
No, I have not ran this by an agent, but I likely will in the future.
I especially think that buying agents have the most messed up commission structure out there.
Not only is their real incentive just to make as many deals as possible, just like a seller's agent, but they actually get a bump in commission the more you overpay for the property.
I especially think that buying agents have the most messed up commission structure out there.
Not only is their real incentive just to make as many deals as possible, just like a seller's agent, but they actually get a bump in commission the more you overpay for the property.
> which can easily be equivalent to avoiding many extra years of work before a home is paid off
Yes it is an exaggeration at 1%, but not such an exaggeration when you consider that 3% is a realistic amount extra that a real estate agent can get if motivated. https://financialpost.com/real-estate/the-realtor-client-dil... - “a real-estate agent keeps her own home on the market an average of ten days longer and sells it for an extra 3-plus per cent, or $10,000 on a $300,000 house.”
When I wrote it I was specifically thinking of low paid friends who missed out on about 5% when selling their home due to poor advice from the agent during a hot market (my friends also failed to think straight because they don’t work in negotiation jobs, and they struggle with emotions involved with the amount involved). The reduction in principal will translate to requiring a total of ~10% extra over the lifetime of the new mortgage (extra interest = ~5%). I imagined how that would translate to extra years of work for them when they should be retiring. I also thought that the story of my friends happens to many, because many people are not used to negotiating sales for $x00,000 and have little financial experience to understand the impacts of their decisions.
Yes it is an exaggeration at 1%, but not such an exaggeration when you consider that 3% is a realistic amount extra that a real estate agent can get if motivated. https://financialpost.com/real-estate/the-realtor-client-dil... - “a real-estate agent keeps her own home on the market an average of ten days longer and sells it for an extra 3-plus per cent, or $10,000 on a $300,000 house.”
When I wrote it I was specifically thinking of low paid friends who missed out on about 5% when selling their home due to poor advice from the agent during a hot market (my friends also failed to think straight because they don’t work in negotiation jobs, and they struggle with emotions involved with the amount involved). The reduction in principal will translate to requiring a total of ~10% extra over the lifetime of the new mortgage (extra interest = ~5%). I imagined how that would translate to extra years of work for them when they should be retiring. I also thought that the story of my friends happens to many, because many people are not used to negotiating sales for $x00,000 and have little financial experience to understand the impacts of their decisions.
A reserve price just sets a target for the agent and they negotiate to that target. I'm sure there are some commission based structures out there that address this inbalance.
That means you need a better incentive structure for the agent. Like 30% above a certain bar, for example.
Never Split the Difference is another good book to read.
This negotiation as written was just moving down by the same amount offered by the buyer, is that what the book would recommend as a technique? It gave a gain of $750 over splitting the difference from the start.
I haven't read the book, but, in general, it's not a good move to split the difference from the start, because there is usually at least one more round of back-and-forth. So once you've split the difference, you're already going to end up closer to the other person's initial bid.
e.g. "I want 10,000" -> "I'll offer 5000" -> "Let's spilt the difference and say 7500" -> "How about 6000?" -> ... now you're already between 6000 and 7500.
e.g. "I want 10,000" -> "I'll offer 5000" -> "Let's spilt the difference and say 7500" -> "How about 6000?" -> ... now you're already between 6000 and 7500.
Great book, would recommend. Not surr how often it has been useful for me still it is a very pleasant read. The main idea is to not give in so easily and to find mutual wins, e.g. he gives the example that he could help the other party get an article in a magazine - barely related to the deal, cost nothing for him, but was worth a lot to the other party.
> "I want 10,000" -> "I'll offer 5000" -> "Let's spilt the difference and say 7500" -> "How about 6000?" ->
"Okay, spliting the difference on that works out to 8000. Sounds good."
"Okay, spliting the difference on that works out to 8000. Sounds good."
> This negotiation as written was just moving down by the same amount offered by the buyer
Huh, didn't even notice. Thanks for pointing that out!
Huh, didn't even notice. Thanks for pointing that out!
If you continued to play it out with computers you’d run into Zeno’s paradox. At some point the buyer stopped going to lower increase amount,s but it could happen in which case I guess you’d end up in the middle and quibbling over pennies.
The book does not recommend it as a technique for starting a negotiation but does include a chapter on the final barter/haggle over price and how best to handle it
I appreciate how open the dev is being and I like the article! But I have a moral annoyance towards username squatting, especially by folks who don’t actually participate in the network…
As far as sensitivities go, moral an annoyance is pretty good, no?
Is the Utility to users of the service worth a possibility of annoyance to [dont_know_yet] down the road?
Does this business model not make it easier for the little guys to squat themselves for a small price?
I have gone on a weird rollercoaster of liking the article, but initially disliking the tinybusiness.
My own non-involvement in social media as a person is one thing; but I can't help but really like the idea of creating a little service that could be a tinythorn in a domain squatters operation.
Terrific work!
Does this business model not make it easier for the little guys to squat themselves for a small price?
I have gone on a weird rollercoaster of liking the article, but initially disliking the tinybusiness.
My own non-involvement in social media as a person is one thing; but I can't help but really like the idea of creating a little service that could be a tinythorn in a domain squatters operation.
Terrific work!
Totally respect this.
I'm curious about your thoughts about pizza/pizza on infogami:reddit. Is it better to make them public, till someone steals them? should they be disallowed?
early on, it's a free for all. grabbing the special names feels scummy, but I get why they're grabbed. Silent, ghost accounts, I don't feel are detrimental to the community. (but I'm totally open to education about why that sucks)
early on, it's a free for all. grabbing the special names feels scummy, but I get why they're grabbed. Silent, ghost accounts, I don't feel are detrimental to the community. (but I'm totally open to education about why that sucks)
This is exactly why I end up making usernames non-unique in many of my online projects (such as learnawesome.org). It makes things more complex to implement, but at least nobody has to compromise on the online nicknames they want.
besides the technical implementation, duplicate usernames seems confusing to users, which is why i’ve never given it too much consideration. is there a reliable and obvious way you differentiate users in the ui? i assume the primary key of the user on the backend moves to something like email or phone number (or just a unique id key i suppose). i’ve seen some projects use a randomly generated image/sprite for this, which isn’t as reliably obvious as i’d like (not to mention not as broadly accessible).
Discord, game platforms, etc. do this with a discriminator. You're not Bob, even though that's what everyone sees - you're Bob#1337 internal to the system, and people need your "full name" to locate you if you aren't already friends.
I think twitter has nearly completely de-emphasized the actual "@Username" handle in favor of the display name. I recently went to create a twitter account for an app/service that I launched and when I inputted my desired username "@MyCoolApp" it gave me basically no indication that it was already in use, and just silently used "@AppMyCool" and set the account display name to the name that I chose.
It's kind of annoying since I would like to have chosen something different, but I'm not bothered that much about it.
It's kind of annoying since I would like to have chosen something different, but I'm not bothered that much about it.
A little OT but for anyone with experience - is the negotiation depicted realistic / typical? The final selling price is over twice the buyer's initial offer and almost 150% of what they said at one point is their max. I know it's a textbook negotiation but (obviously not having too much experience negotiating) I never thought that's really how they work in real life.
Yes.
The buyer would might have been willing to pay $15,000+, but wanted to anchor (and start low) so went $4,500. The real max was introduced when the seller gave the $15,000 number... buyers never want to or will reveal their number (i.e. the $7500 was a lie.)
The buyer would might have been willing to pay $15,000+, but wanted to anchor (and start low) so went $4,500. The real max was introduced when the seller gave the $15,000 number... buyers never want to or will reveal their number (i.e. the $7500 was a lie.)
Thanks! So basically (typically, of course depending on circumstances) any number explicitly stated by the buyer is less than the true maximum and you can expect to converge on a higher price?
Normally, yes, and as was mentioned higher in the thread this initial figure is referred to as an "anchor," meaning that it has the psychological effect of implying that anything higher than that number is somehow a real concession on the buyer's part, when the reality is that the opening number could have just been higher. It's rather like when a store says "this is normally $500 but now it's on sale for only $250" instead of just pricing something at $250 in the first place. Getting to Yes, also mentioned above, is a useful book on negotiation.
think of negotiations as a price discovery mechanism (auctions as another example) with severe information asymmetries. the point of the process is to learn what each side values and what exactly is on offer (and can be potentially offered) and how much value each side places on those things. price is used as the primary signal of value, and you learn about value as prices and information is exchanged in an iterated fashion.
Thanks! Yeah that's my idea, I guess what surprised me is the ranges involved. In the few times I had to negotiate (always as a "seller" as in salary negotiation), I would state around 110% of my minimum, and I was really prepared to walk away if the offer was below that. That worked but I guess it conditioned me to treat buyers' offers as 90% of their maximum while in reality it doesn't make sense for them to start there...
yes, i should have mentioned trust earlier, as that’s even more important than information in negotiations. two parties who don’t know each other will start with relatively low trust, so highly divergent bids are a signal of that. as information is shared, and assuming trust signals trend positive, the bids converge. also, you want to know early if the other party is a sucker or unreasonable, and to weed out lemons. all that’s a direct consequence of our intuitive sense of fairness and value.
salary negotiations are a little fraught because they’re low trust and information-asymmetrical to start but because jobs are a longer term relationship, you don’t want to trigger distrust. one of the reasons employers like to keep salaries/comp private is that it gives them an significant information advantage in negotiations. they know every comp package they’re paying and that they’ve offered, as well as comp packages at various other companies and industry average info that they subscribe to. it’s often prohibitively expensive for each worker to gather similar data, which creates a real disadvantage.
in light of that, i’d suggest starting at 110% of what you’d consider a reasonable maximum, not minimum, and have 3 justifications ready (based on value you’ve generated for other companies, your overall experience level, specific skills/relationships/resources you bring to bear, public salary/comp information, etc.) to counter the obvious first objections (usually on experience or comparative comp data). anchoring high, but not unreasonably so, and then negotiating with justification should get you a higher comp package while not triggering distrust. you’ll also learn some important bits about the company which may give you reason to forego the offer (happened to me a couple times actually).
salary negotiations are a little fraught because they’re low trust and information-asymmetrical to start but because jobs are a longer term relationship, you don’t want to trigger distrust. one of the reasons employers like to keep salaries/comp private is that it gives them an significant information advantage in negotiations. they know every comp package they’re paying and that they’ve offered, as well as comp packages at various other companies and industry average info that they subscribe to. it’s often prohibitively expensive for each worker to gather similar data, which creates a real disadvantage.
in light of that, i’d suggest starting at 110% of what you’d consider a reasonable maximum, not minimum, and have 3 justifications ready (based on value you’ve generated for other companies, your overall experience level, specific skills/relationships/resources you bring to bear, public salary/comp information, etc.) to counter the obvious first objections (usually on experience or comparative comp data). anchoring high, but not unreasonably so, and then negotiating with justification should get you a higher comp package while not triggering distrust. you’ll also learn some important bits about the company which may give you reason to forego the offer (happened to me a couple times actually).
I'm no expert, but salary negotiations may be different. If the rough range you're expecting is $100k, and you start the negotiations at $200k, they might actually take it as "this person has completely unrealistic opinions of themselves" and/or "this person is going to walk out on us the moment they get a better offer, so there's no point hiring them."
This is very interesting. I only really heard about these billion dollar aquisitions like Slack, I didn't know that there is an online marketplace for buying startups in the range of a few thousand dollars. That's awesome!
I sold my tiny project on microacquire marketplace, last time I checked there were even more low priced projects there, indeed it's an awesome way to experience an "EXIT" on a smaller scale :)
Something feels off if I need an account to even see their listings. I cannot tell if they are legit, or just a landing page for someone trying to get rolling.
I also looked on indiemaker and flippa, but microacquire was the only one where you dont need to pay to list your project and talk to potential buyers.. big plus
not just an email, your linkedin profile is required too.
It might be a stretch to call them startups. Often it's just a domain name with an idea attached to it. It might come with a proof-of-concept weekend project if you're lucky, but you'll probably need to rewrite that app anyway.
A few thousand dollars doesn't sound bad for a decent domain name and an interesting idea into which someone has put a few days' worth of time and effort. A functional webapp would be nice but not strictly necessary.
A few thousand dollars doesn't sound bad for a decent domain name and an interesting idea into which someone has put a few days' worth of time and effort. A functional webapp would be nice but not strictly necessary.
I've sold a few projects like this, ranging from $1,000 to $20,000. Some were a week or two of my time, versus the $20,000 exit was 3 years that I'm sure in this market would have been worth 3x that amount (such is life).
I don't have time to devout 40 hrs/week to projects, but can spend a few hours here and there. So for me, if I can turn some free time into cash and scratch that itch, all the better.
I don't have time to devout 40 hrs/week to projects, but can spend a few hours here and there. So for me, if I can turn some free time into cash and scratch that itch, all the better.
Everything I've seen around here has been from the seller's perspective.
Has anyone here bought a tiny startup/project like that?
If not, is there some demographic not represented on HN who is buying these?
Has anyone here bought a tiny startup/project like that?
If not, is there some demographic not represented on HN who is buying these?
I’ve purchased several websites on empireflippers.com in the $10-30k range. Happy to answer any questions.
What kind of projects are these?
I'd say that $10-30k range is blogs with high search positions and established affiliate partnerships, but that's just my uneducated guess.
BTW: empireflippers.com seems to be down right now, possibly due to all the hype caused by HN audience.
I'd say that $10-30k range is blogs with high search positions and established affiliate partnerships, but that's just my uneducated guess.
BTW: empireflippers.com seems to be down right now, possibly due to all the hype caused by HN audience.
Yes that’s correct. Usually strong search position with a few keywords. One I bought and later sold had an affiliate partnership already set up.
What's your main line of business, and what went into the decisions to buy those sites?
Did they all have revenue, and the owners just couldn't be bothered with the upkeep, and you figured you could? (Just going off OP's story here.)
Did they all have revenue, and the owners just couldn't be bothered with the upkeep, and you figured you could? (Just going off OP's story here.)
They all had revenue and vetted by empire flippers (and myself).
I figured that I could either increase traffic or use simple strategies to increase revenue and then resell them at a higher price. I’m not sure what the owners motivation was for selling. Usually to buy something bigger is my guess.
Edit: forgot to answer one question. I had just quit being a minor partner in a VC and wanted to learn about online marketing, and also realized how much I valued freedom over my time over making more money. I tried buying, holding/improving and then selling websites for a couple years. I didn’t really love it - Google’s unpredictable behavior carries way too much weight.
I figured that I could either increase traffic or use simple strategies to increase revenue and then resell them at a higher price. I’m not sure what the owners motivation was for selling. Usually to buy something bigger is my guess.
Edit: forgot to answer one question. I had just quit being a minor partner in a VC and wanted to learn about online marketing, and also realized how much I valued freedom over my time over making more money. I tried buying, holding/improving and then selling websites for a couple years. I didn’t really love it - Google’s unpredictable behavior carries way too much weight.
I do see an increasing number of projects being posted on my little website too
https://www.sideprojectors.com
The original premise of SideProjectors was to buy and sell small indie projects. Over the years, I've seen many many of these small projects (often ecommerce shops, dropshipping businesses, but at times quite interesting ones too) being submitted.
As a side note (pun intended) - I've been also watching out for off-the-shelf template softwares that are being posted and making sure they are filtered out. As an example, you can buy a "Privacy respecting Google Analytics Alternative, launch your own SaaS" from themeforest for $49, repackaged and being sold in many places. Their pitches are usually similar.. "hey, I developed this, but haven't had time to do marketing, it has so much potential, just need someone to take over and start making that passive income".
https://www.sideprojectors.com
The original premise of SideProjectors was to buy and sell small indie projects. Over the years, I've seen many many of these small projects (often ecommerce shops, dropshipping businesses, but at times quite interesting ones too) being submitted.
As a side note (pun intended) - I've been also watching out for off-the-shelf template softwares that are being posted and making sure they are filtered out. As an example, you can buy a "Privacy respecting Google Analytics Alternative, launch your own SaaS" from themeforest for $49, repackaged and being sold in many places. Their pitches are usually similar.. "hey, I developed this, but haven't had time to do marketing, it has so much potential, just need someone to take over and start making that passive income".
I listed a project on your site, I can't remember if we found the seller there or not.
However, good point about the pre-packaged apps. If someone describes it more honest, would you feel better about them? For example, if someone was upfront and said "I've done the work of putting together this site, you don't need to know the mechanics, you just need to run it."
However, good point about the pre-packaged apps. If someone describes it more honest, would you feel better about them? For example, if someone was upfront and said "I've done the work of putting together this site, you don't need to know the mechanics, you just need to run it."
Any advice on actually finding the idea that is worth doing? I have a notion page with 20+ tiny ideas, but I still don't find any of them encouraging enough to spend time on. How to overcome this very first step?
I have two solutions for you that have served me well.
1. Don't wait for the right idea. Just build a less than ideal idea and iterate. More than likely you will gain insight that leads to a better idea along the way.
2. Copy somebody else's idea. Nobody executes perfectly, and no two founders will execute the same way. There is always room for competition.
1. Don't wait for the right idea. Just build a less than ideal idea and iterate. More than likely you will gain insight that leads to a better idea along the way.
2. Copy somebody else's idea. Nobody executes perfectly, and no two founders will execute the same way. There is always room for competition.
I publish all my ideas online if you are interested. They're not really startup ideas though. They're just computer ideas I wish existed. Links in profile.
Reading your ideas now. You are a fascinating fellow.
Is this list of ideas public? I would be interested in reading them.
It is the same advice you hear for any other project - solve a problem.
The projects that work are the ones that solve people's problems. The ones that fail are the ones that try to create solutions for problems people do not have.
The projects that work are the ones that solve people's problems. The ones that fail are the ones that try to create solutions for problems people do not have.
To add to this, advice from people successful in this area really recommend solving a problem *you* have and avoid trying to solve problems you know exist but aren't a problem for you.
This is good advice. Problems you have yourself you understand better and have probably already had some thoughts on how to solve them. Even idle thoughts in the past can be really handy when it comes time to think deeper about solving it in code.
20 is a very small amount of ideas. Keep coming up with more, and they keep getting better. It's a skill like any other.
The real learning comes from executing on even those dumb ideas. I learned more from 2 dumb Shopify sites I built and ran then listing out ideas.
If the idea is tiny, they literally should take no longer than 2 weeks. Just start an hour a day at night or in the morning and chip away an hour by hour. Managed to get a tiny idea I had live in 2 months doing it like this
I've had some luck building toy websites for the main purpose of trying out or practicing some tools or skills. Most recently was a site where I was semi-automatically collecting stock price data, creating and posting stock charts and attempting (unsuccessfully) to identify buy opportunities. It was on the domain BuyTheDip.com. After I was done dabbling the site just sat for a few years until a buyer approached with an attractive offer. It was during the Wall Street Bets frenzy so I think it might have been related. Now the domain redirects to a Discord group, so I guess they just liked the domain name.
Point being, you might just keep building and dabbling and score a winner now and then.
Point being, you might just keep building and dabbling and score a winner now and then.
I don't think you'll ever know off the bat if an idea is worth doing. A lot of ideas sound good to you, but there are so many unknowns, like whether you have a suitable audience and whether there's a good ROI.
As an exercise, you could try doing a rough design of a working system to get a feel for how much work it would be. On top of that, you could try imagining all the things that could go wrong and try to predict the likelihood of each. That's what I would do, anyway.
As an exercise, you could try doing a rough design of a working system to get a feel for how much work it would be. On top of that, you could try imagining all the things that could go wrong and try to predict the likelihood of each. That's what I would do, anyway.
I have a theory that once you get something out there, it establishes you as a person who can ship stuff independently. Even if it's not a success, it'll introduce you to people who may help you discover better ideas. If you can build a bit of a brand, some people will follow you around and help promote your projects just because they like you.
I haven't tested this yet, because I haven't shipped my 90%-complete project from 2 years ago yet…
I haven't tested this yet, because I haven't shipped my 90%-complete project from 2 years ago yet…
> Could I pump out tiny SaaS starter projects and sell them at $10k+ a pop?
Honestly I'd probably never trust a business doing this. From my POV they're probably just after cash from a buyer, not a good place for my data.
I know I'm probably an outlier though, I don't think I've seen anyone else note a lack of privacy policy on the names one for example
Honestly I'd probably never trust a business doing this. From my POV they're probably just after cash from a buyer, not a good place for my data.
I know I'm probably an outlier though, I don't think I've seen anyone else note a lack of privacy policy on the names one for example
I've sold a few small tiny businesses and some of the potential buyers are just students in their dorms with extra time on their hands. They have a bit of cash they can part with and just want to run a tiny site or Saas as a hobby more than anything. It's also a great way to get feet wet before they finally execute on that "great idea" they have :)
> some of the potential buyers are just students in their dorms with extra time on their hands
Yeah that's my concern haha
Yeah that's my concern haha
I wonder how viable a sort of "micro PE" firm would be, basically a company that just buys many of these micro indie projects with positive cash flow with the goal of holding on to them for profit or investing into their operations and eventually reselling them.
There's been this trend of new firms popping up that acquire small ecommerce brands (in fact, there was one on HN just the other day). I'm wondering if the same model can (or has) been applied to small "indie" companies and projects.
There's been this trend of new firms popping up that acquire small ecommerce brands (in fact, there was one on HN just the other day). I'm wondering if the same model can (or has) been applied to small "indie" companies and projects.
I think it's going to be more common than it is. Or, maybe its already super common and we just don't hear about it.
My reasoning is as follows: small products/companies have de-risked the initial PMF exploration, but aren't at a scale where they can hire specialists. Sure, maybe you can find a 10 hours / week data engineer who can build your analytics infra MVP. It's more likely you don't find someone good, IMO.
Building a portfolio of these means you can hire a specialist who can focus on the low hanging fruit of 3-4+ companies at a time. That's a huge advantage over the small companies.
My reasoning is as follows: small products/companies have de-risked the initial PMF exploration, but aren't at a scale where they can hire specialists. Sure, maybe you can find a 10 hours / week data engineer who can build your analytics infra MVP. It's more likely you don't find someone good, IMO.
Building a portfolio of these means you can hire a specialist who can focus on the low hanging fruit of 3-4+ companies at a time. That's a huge advantage over the small companies.
I've also thought about this a lot wrt microsaas projects. Specifically, looking to acquire projects that are small but match my tech expertise such that I can consolidate certain aspects of them easily. Ultimately maintenance will probably be the biggest problem with acquiring numerous small projects, so making that as easy as possible is important.
It would probably not be "viable" in the sense of it becoming a unicorn, but it probably is a viable small business or side project. I get the feeling that once you become a medium sized business, you kind of necessarily outgrow the "micro" part of the monicker.
It would probably not be "viable" in the sense of it becoming a unicorn, but it probably is a viable small business or side project. I get the feeling that once you become a medium sized business, you kind of necessarily outgrow the "micro" part of the monicker.
I do remember seeing one, actually, aimed at smaller bootstrapped SaaS products doing >10k/MRR. But I can't for the life of me remember what it was called.
Seems like a pretty low ROI to me.
Generously, we're talking about ~$100/hour, my guess is it was actually a lot less than that, maybe as low as half or a third, and this is for an idea that got some traction.
That could be a good wage for some groups of people, but my guess is you'd find a much better one either a) growing something to a larger size or b) working for someone else.
If you're really interested in building these tiny products though, then it could be a way to support yourself doing what you're interested in. I just wouldn't generalize this strategy to "this is a good way to make a living".
On the flip side, I bet doing this sort of thing really sharpens the entrepreneurs skillset - identifying good ideas, quickly bootstrapping a product, and negotiating for funding, so I bet you're getting some pretty big personal levelups as you go.
Generously, we're talking about ~$100/hour, my guess is it was actually a lot less than that, maybe as low as half or a third, and this is for an idea that got some traction.
That could be a good wage for some groups of people, but my guess is you'd find a much better one either a) growing something to a larger size or b) working for someone else.
If you're really interested in building these tiny products though, then it could be a way to support yourself doing what you're interested in. I just wouldn't generalize this strategy to "this is a good way to make a living".
On the flip side, I bet doing this sort of thing really sharpens the entrepreneurs skillset - identifying good ideas, quickly bootstrapping a product, and negotiating for funding, so I bet you're getting some pretty big personal levelups as you go.
Building something that people want and will pay for has a compounding effect far beyond trading time for an hourly rate.
Sometimes what you build can be early, and it needs to simmer for a while or flesh out. There is a real opportunity time cost for sitting on things to ripen that someone else may be in a place to work.
It’s really shouldn’t be worded as a backhanded compliment that if it’s really what you want to do. There are people who have built and scaled things and have decided what’s good for them, and how it’s good for them.
Having 10m on a 100m exit or 10m on a 30m exit, or 1m of 1-2m exit is all the same to the bank account, maybe not ones self image.
Being an exited founder at any dollar amount puts a person in very small company, and learning to exit small deals can also teach one to be prepared on what to look out for on the bigger deals. This is probably the biggest thing, if entrepreneurship is in your blood you want to make sure you’re well rounded and prepped for those biggest outcomes of your life.
Still, it’s fun to see what you’re made of and see how much you can make of nothing. One can imagine what is possible with $ efficiency.
Sometimes what you build can be early, and it needs to simmer for a while or flesh out. There is a real opportunity time cost for sitting on things to ripen that someone else may be in a place to work.
It’s really shouldn’t be worded as a backhanded compliment that if it’s really what you want to do. There are people who have built and scaled things and have decided what’s good for them, and how it’s good for them.
Having 10m on a 100m exit or 10m on a 30m exit, or 1m of 1-2m exit is all the same to the bank account, maybe not ones self image.
Being an exited founder at any dollar amount puts a person in very small company, and learning to exit small deals can also teach one to be prepared on what to look out for on the bigger deals. This is probably the biggest thing, if entrepreneurship is in your blood you want to make sure you’re well rounded and prepped for those biggest outcomes of your life.
Still, it’s fun to see what you’re made of and see how much you can make of nothing. One can imagine what is possible with $ efficiency.
Where does someone in their early 20s get the capital to just up and start multiple ice cream shop locations, and simultaneously find the time to work on an array of random software "projects/ideas"?
This whole thread seems really fishy.
The theme of an entire thread discussing building and selling businesses like it's just something you can choose to do in your free time or not ...
This whole thread seems really fishy.
The theme of an entire thread discussing building and selling businesses like it's just something you can choose to do in your free time or not ...
This thread has an astroturf feel. I wonder who is making the money here and how?
100%
The theme of an entire thread is discussing building and selling businesses like it's just something you can choose to do easily in your free time or not ...
Oh, just build that random idea you had and sell it for 10K in a couple of months ...
The theme of an entire thread is discussing building and selling businesses like it's just something you can choose to do easily in your free time or not ...
Oh, just build that random idea you had and sell it for 10K in a couple of months ...
We have a similar background. I do tiny projects on the side and I did ice cream for retail and wholesale. Pretty cool to find like minded individuals.
Just curious how do you find the market for your projects
So you've discovered domain squatting.
It's definitely not a novel idea, but given that newer social networks are coming up every day, there ofcourse enough takers for it. However, the part that I find worth questioning is, how much of the revenue is really recurring revenue. Why'd someone subscribe for more than a few months on such a service.
10k for that app seems insane.
Usually, the price is for the email list, backlinks to the domain name, various social accounts with followers, etc. The price for the actual app is a small part of the equation.
They have ~2500 emails, no socials and seemingly only a few backlinks to startup listing websites.
That does not seem worth 10k to me. What do you think?
That does not seem worth 10k to me. What do you think?
if it's making $350/month, that's $12.6k for 3 years. I think a general rule of thumb for website valuations is 3 years of ARR so seems about right. That's assuming that the website will never grow and will never has any other possible income source.
Never grow? It will shrink. The buyer got robbed. Churn is one the numbers investors watch like a hawk in a SaaS, and I can’t imagine this service retaining more than 30% of their users over several months.
My side-project only had ~500 email subscribers, no MRR, but pretty good domain authority because it marketed itself.
And still it got acquired only after 3 months!
for how much?
You’d be amazed at how much projects with a little more effort put into them go for then! There’s a level of companies with niche products and potentially no revenue being sold for tens of millions. Granted this is partly aqui-hire but 10k is very little money in the grand scheme.
Interesting that microacquire was used.
I struggle to take seriously a site that lists "Our team" as characters from Silicon Valley.
I struggle to take seriously a site that lists "Our team" as characters from Silicon Valley.
congrats on the emoji sale!
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I sold a website on Flippa once. The buyer put the money on Escrow.com, I transferred everything over, and they went AWOL. What I found out is that there is no straightforward way to obtain the funds when it happens. Apparently there is no way at all except via the court system. Which would mean the only real protection Escrow gives is against the buyer going bankrupt (or using false identity, I suppose).
Fortunately, they came back several weeks later with some nonsensical excuse and closed the transaction, but I will never use Escrow.com again.