Ask HN: Am I working too hard?
26 comments
I've had a similar experience. After around 10 years on this rat race I've found out how little I had lived, despite that I was enjoying it. I couldn't even watch a movie without sleeping and it took me years to finally be able to appreciate different things in life. What opened my eyes was to see my mother pass away. Only that gave me conscience that just like she did(she was young & healthy), I could get sick and die very quickly.
Yes, get some hobbies and start to develop yourself in other areas. Life eventually ends and it is great to have a brain that can do something other than coding.
Develop yourself psychologically, become more mature, spiritually, learn how to cook... there is just so much you can do with your time.
One of your first goals should be to learn how to make your company respect you, despite you not living for them, like you are doing.
Also to find a psychologist. This kind of tunnel vision is common, mine was rooted in my poverty background... and they can help you to understand what caused you to think and act like this and the most important, to learn to expand yourself in different ways. You might have actually much more potential than you think you have, but you need to let yourself go.
Wish you a great time, our life is brief.
Yes, get some hobbies and start to develop yourself in other areas. Life eventually ends and it is great to have a brain that can do something other than coding.
Develop yourself psychologically, become more mature, spiritually, learn how to cook... there is just so much you can do with your time.
One of your first goals should be to learn how to make your company respect you, despite you not living for them, like you are doing.
Also to find a psychologist. This kind of tunnel vision is common, mine was rooted in my poverty background... and they can help you to understand what caused you to think and act like this and the most important, to learn to expand yourself in different ways. You might have actually much more potential than you think you have, but you need to let yourself go.
Wish you a great time, our life is brief.
As long as you feel happy with what you are doing, don't worry about comparing with others. You do what you want to do. If you want to work extra, do it. Don't let others tell you that it is bad.
"by investing my own time into my work, I disadvantage others who are not willing or able to do so, by seeming even more productive than my baseline."
Lol at this. You don't disadvantage anyone else. You are doing more for yourself. You yourself said "investing my own time". It may pay off later.
Some people work 4 hours a day and they think that's too much. Some work 8 and they think thats the best they can do. Some sit all day doing nothing. Some work like crazy. Doesn't matter what others do. There is always going to be someone better than you and someone worse than you. Stop comparing and only care about what YOU want.
"by investing my own time into my work, I disadvantage others who are not willing or able to do so, by seeming even more productive than my baseline."
Lol at this. You don't disadvantage anyone else. You are doing more for yourself. You yourself said "investing my own time". It may pay off later.
Some people work 4 hours a day and they think that's too much. Some work 8 and they think thats the best they can do. Some sit all day doing nothing. Some work like crazy. Doesn't matter what others do. There is always going to be someone better than you and someone worse than you. Stop comparing and only care about what YOU want.
No one else can tell you how to live your life man. I enjoy time with friends, family, and hobbies. People like Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates etc value working more. Plenty of non financially successful people also value working more. These are decisions that one has to make for yourself. If you both have a deep and loving relationship, as well as a job you love, it is up to you to determine how to allocate your time. There are tradeoffs that some people weigh differently.
Finally, if gaming isnt a fun hobby anymore... it is hardly the only one out there, and arguably one of the biggest time sucks on the planet. Maybe find some different hobbies you consider more valuable uses of your time outside of work. Maybe art, music, sports or nature?
Finally, if gaming isnt a fun hobby anymore... it is hardly the only one out there, and arguably one of the biggest time sucks on the planet. Maybe find some different hobbies you consider more valuable uses of your time outside of work. Maybe art, music, sports or nature?
Try games that are intellectually challenging and like an interactive book helping you grow.
Game Ex. Opus Magnum (benefit ex. pcb layout)
Game Ex. Opus Magnum (benefit ex. pcb layout)
As long as you think the rewards are worth the costs, then you're doing well. Sounds as if you've been thoughtful about the accounting, and the non-monetary rewards are valuable to you in well articulated ways.
In 10 and 20 years you might make different choices, but thats then, and this is the time you get the experience to make those choices. Don't miss unique things in favor of stuff thats there everyday, and beware of others taking advantage of your enthusiasm.
In 10 and 20 years you might make different choices, but thats then, and this is the time you get the experience to make those choices. Don't miss unique things in favor of stuff thats there everyday, and beware of others taking advantage of your enthusiasm.
Compass I use is - what are my needs - have they been met? The answers decide how much work and what type of work.
Its very tricky though for multiple reasons. There is a wide spectrum of Needs so one has to develop a vocabulary or map of what exists before being able to answer the question well. Also Needs change with time and context. So the question has to be asked frequently. In relationships and groups that are important the needs of the other person or group also have to be monitored.
Its very tricky though for multiple reasons. There is a wide spectrum of Needs so one has to develop a vocabulary or map of what exists before being able to answer the question well. Also Needs change with time and context. So the question has to be asked frequently. In relationships and groups that are important the needs of the other person or group also have to be monitored.
Working hard and failing to get positive feedback causes burnout. If you feel constant pressure to work harder or deliver quicker, that your never good enough and on the brink of being fired you'll burn out.
If you love what you do and can't find the hours in the day to do it, you're lucky and keep going. Just avoid RSI, get enough sleep and exercise. You'll be fine.
If you love what you do and can't find the hours in the day to do it, you're lucky and keep going. Just avoid RSI, get enough sleep and exercise. You'll be fine.
Second this. Burnout isn't about the amount of work you're doing, it's about being in an extractive/exploitative relationship with the work.
I will caution that while I 100% believe you can work any number of hours and not burn out, giving it your all can put you in a vulnerable position if things go south. Just one source of gratification gone can be enough to kick into burn out if it was keeping you going
Doesn't sound like it. Your only complaint is not enjoying videos games as much, and have a valid reason for it. That could just be maturity.
Burnout tends to have the opposite effect - you get sucked into mindless hedonistic things because your brain is overloaded on stress.
Your SO is going to be the best barometer on whether you are overworking. Ask them.
Burnout tends to have the opposite effect - you get sucked into mindless hedonistic things because your brain is overloaded on stress.
Your SO is going to be the best barometer on whether you are overworking. Ask them.
Have you tried taking time off without doing anything work related for two or three weeks? Not even checking work messages.
Personal anecdote: Had some longer leave last year (8 weeks consecutive), came back to work and felt energized and recharged and super productive. The projects I was interested in and didn’t do before my leave were still there and I could pick them up.
Apart from that personal anecdote I am convinced that longer periods of PTO (> 2 weeks) are beneficial for everyone because it allows you to completely disconnect, have your brain focus on other things (side project, new hobbies or even getting bored). You’ll likely come back with a new perspective on things and that itself is worth it.
Personal anecdote: Had some longer leave last year (8 weeks consecutive), came back to work and felt energized and recharged and super productive. The projects I was interested in and didn’t do before my leave were still there and I could pick them up.
Apart from that personal anecdote I am convinced that longer periods of PTO (> 2 weeks) are beneficial for everyone because it allows you to completely disconnect, have your brain focus on other things (side project, new hobbies or even getting bored). You’ll likely come back with a new perspective on things and that itself is worth it.
An analogy is sports training. Damage is caused by overtraining. But to the naked eye, overtraining and pro training look pretty much the same. Some lift 150 lbs easily. I can't work 8 hours a day, but plenty of coders can do 10 hours because they're at a higher level (or lower intensity).
If it hurts, if you're neglecting something in life, then you're probably pushing it. You need to push yourself constantly to improve. Just counterbalance it with enough rest.
Watch out for envy though. Resist the urge to "humblebrag", i.e. saying that your success comes at a cost. I've seen it become a self-fulfilling prophecy; either they fear the work or become consumed by it. If you're doing well, then keep on doing well.
If it hurts, if you're neglecting something in life, then you're probably pushing it. You need to push yourself constantly to improve. Just counterbalance it with enough rest.
Watch out for envy though. Resist the urge to "humblebrag", i.e. saying that your success comes at a cost. I've seen it become a self-fulfilling prophecy; either they fear the work or become consumed by it. If you're doing well, then keep on doing well.
>There may also be a moral hazard - by investing my own time into my work, I disadvantage others who are not willing or able to do so, by seeming even more productive than my baseline.
Lol at calling this a moral hazard. By your logic any positive thing you ever do in life will disadvantage others who are not doing it and therefore appear worse in comparison. Let’s not have a race to the bottom just to seem like the nicest person possible.
Lol at calling this a moral hazard. By your logic any positive thing you ever do in life will disadvantage others who are not doing it and therefore appear worse in comparison. Let’s not have a race to the bottom just to seem like the nicest person possible.
Have you asked your partner for their perspective on your relationship? Do they think things are good or balanced? I wonder if your lack of other stimulus isn’t showing up in your personal life.
> sleep 9+ hours every night
I think this information alone means you’re not on the burnout path.
It sounds you’re just excited by what you’re doing at work (cause it’s new, core and people depend on you). It’s fairly natural and it will plateau at some point.
Also you don’t say how many hours you work so it’s kind of hard to tell.
I think this information alone means you’re not on the burnout path.
It sounds you’re just excited by what you’re doing at work (cause it’s new, core and people depend on you). It’s fairly natural and it will plateau at some point.
Also you don’t say how many hours you work so it’s kind of hard to tell.
You sound similar to me; although perhaps I am a few years further on in my career.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with what you're describing. All of my promotions/progressions in my career have come from being willing to go the extra mile and work on/learn things outside of my role. Sometimes this involves working early/late/on weekends. Unless you're a true prodigy or have an exceptional management structure around you that gives significant experimentation/learning during your normal working hours I feel this will always be the way. Either way, it sounds like you have a healthy work/life balance.
I think if you intend to have a long career in your industry (or indeed any industry) at some point you will experience burnout(s) in some form. Accept it for what it is and learn how to handle it. It may take different forms; for me I generally notice that I get distracted a lot (and get frustrated with myself for it). Sometimes the solution is time off; sometimes it's changing companies/roles (especially if you're early in your career it's likely you'll outgrow your current company/team at some point).
Much like exercise, you'll learn the signals your brain/body is giving you over time; they'll be unique to you. You'll probably get it wrong at some points to. The key is acting on those signals early. I write letters to myself about how I'm feeling in those moments, and then revisit them when I'm struggling. It's been extremely useful for remembering how I felt previously and knowing when to step off the gas.
But the short answer is no, I think you are working the right amount.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with what you're describing. All of my promotions/progressions in my career have come from being willing to go the extra mile and work on/learn things outside of my role. Sometimes this involves working early/late/on weekends. Unless you're a true prodigy or have an exceptional management structure around you that gives significant experimentation/learning during your normal working hours I feel this will always be the way. Either way, it sounds like you have a healthy work/life balance.
I think if you intend to have a long career in your industry (or indeed any industry) at some point you will experience burnout(s) in some form. Accept it for what it is and learn how to handle it. It may take different forms; for me I generally notice that I get distracted a lot (and get frustrated with myself for it). Sometimes the solution is time off; sometimes it's changing companies/roles (especially if you're early in your career it's likely you'll outgrow your current company/team at some point).
Much like exercise, you'll learn the signals your brain/body is giving you over time; they'll be unique to you. You'll probably get it wrong at some points to. The key is acting on those signals early. I write letters to myself about how I'm feeling in those moments, and then revisit them when I'm struggling. It's been extremely useful for remembering how I felt previously and knowing when to step off the gas.
But the short answer is no, I think you are working the right amount.
If you are getting 9+ hours sleep, and finding time to exercise - you are not working too hard.
To speak specifically to this: "I have a questionable habit of working into the evening, and sometimes on weekends. ... I worry that I may be going down the wrong path ... Am I working too hard?"
Working late, or on weekends, can be perfectly ok, at least to a point. Something I consider a dividing line, or sign of caution, is one sentiment - resentment.
Speaking from experience, I've gone through periods of months, even years, where I was intensely motivated and satisfied to work long weeks, into evenings, sometimes on weekends, etc. As long as I found the work rewarding, challenging, and had great relationships with co-workers, I was all in and felt perfectly fine. Some of my very best memories involve risky, challenging work, long late nights, and teammates I wanted to be beside and support. So taken alone, I don't think long hours or committing to work more often than peers, leads to burnout.
I think burnout starts creeping in when those same long hours become expected, mandated, directed at work that's not as stimulating, or requires challenging teammates. In short, resenting work, or conditions of it, builds a potential path to burnout.
Which is why you sound ok to me. You work hard, but you enjoy what you do. It sounds like you're in a healthy work environment and have positive reinforcements (positive teammates, exercise habits, your partner, etc.).
But do continue keeping tabs on your work habits; not just how often you commit to them, but how they make you feel. If work stops feeling positive or worthwhile, know that that's perfectly ok! ... we all experience that at some point. The healthy thing to do in that case, is slow down and start asking questions about why you feel the way you do, what might need to change, etc.
Working late, or on weekends, can be perfectly ok, at least to a point. Something I consider a dividing line, or sign of caution, is one sentiment - resentment.
Speaking from experience, I've gone through periods of months, even years, where I was intensely motivated and satisfied to work long weeks, into evenings, sometimes on weekends, etc. As long as I found the work rewarding, challenging, and had great relationships with co-workers, I was all in and felt perfectly fine. Some of my very best memories involve risky, challenging work, long late nights, and teammates I wanted to be beside and support. So taken alone, I don't think long hours or committing to work more often than peers, leads to burnout.
I think burnout starts creeping in when those same long hours become expected, mandated, directed at work that's not as stimulating, or requires challenging teammates. In short, resenting work, or conditions of it, builds a potential path to burnout.
Which is why you sound ok to me. You work hard, but you enjoy what you do. It sounds like you're in a healthy work environment and have positive reinforcements (positive teammates, exercise habits, your partner, etc.).
But do continue keeping tabs on your work habits; not just how often you commit to them, but how they make you feel. If work stops feeling positive or worthwhile, know that that's perfectly ok! ... we all experience that at some point. The healthy thing to do in that case, is slow down and start asking questions about why you feel the way you do, what might need to change, etc.
> I used to enjoy video games a lot, but have found that I just can't get into them anymore.
When I hit about 27 my interest in video games cratered. I gather that around that age for some, perhaps many, the instant gratification video games offered in youth wanes significantly and a longer term form of gratification becomes more salient. Perhaps a similar effect is occurring for you.
When I hit about 27 my interest in video games cratered. I gather that around that age for some, perhaps many, the instant gratification video games offered in youth wanes significantly and a longer term form of gratification becomes more salient. Perhaps a similar effect is occurring for you.
Playing games with a kid is pretty good fun, so you may get a second wind. And they get good really fast, to the point that it’s actually competitive or cooperative.
> I have a questionable habit of working into the evening, and sometimes on weekends.
I'm assuming you are an employee. If not, then my comment may not apply. If I were in the same team as you, the fact that you also work on the weekends will make me feel a bit uncomfortable. I would never tell you that because I believe one do with his life what one wants, but putting it on perspective:
- we are suppose to be "professionals". Among other things, being a profressional means: to work the "correct" amount of hours. Not more, not less. Since it's difficult to compute "the correct amount of hours", we usually take the 40h/week Monday-Friday as the "standard". So, it's obvious that upper management will love to have people working more hours because in 90% of the companies out there the work that needs to be carried on (e.g., plain CRUD apps) is directly dependant of the amount of hours the team puts in it. So, as an employee as well, I wouldn't like to be in the position of "the guys who just works 40h/week" and don't get any decent salary raise.
> I'm given both freedom and responsibility. I'm early in my career.
Young people can work all day, so that's why you haven't experimented anything bad yet. If you take advice from people on in the internet, then here it goes mine: I'm in my late 30s, and if there is one thing I could fix in my early years as a software engineer it would be to work less for my company and more for me.
I'm assuming you are an employee. If not, then my comment may not apply. If I were in the same team as you, the fact that you also work on the weekends will make me feel a bit uncomfortable. I would never tell you that because I believe one do with his life what one wants, but putting it on perspective:
- we are suppose to be "professionals". Among other things, being a profressional means: to work the "correct" amount of hours. Not more, not less. Since it's difficult to compute "the correct amount of hours", we usually take the 40h/week Monday-Friday as the "standard". So, it's obvious that upper management will love to have people working more hours because in 90% of the companies out there the work that needs to be carried on (e.g., plain CRUD apps) is directly dependant of the amount of hours the team puts in it. So, as an employee as well, I wouldn't like to be in the position of "the guys who just works 40h/week" and don't get any decent salary raise.
> I'm given both freedom and responsibility. I'm early in my career.
Young people can work all day, so that's why you haven't experimented anything bad yet. If you take advice from people on in the internet, then here it goes mine: I'm in my late 30s, and if there is one thing I could fix in my early years as a software engineer it would be to work less for my company and more for me.
whatever you are doing now sets the baseline of expectation for your performance in future,
ask yourself whether you want to be working like this for next XX years, when you are older, need more sleep, health issues start showing up, possibly have children or elderly to take care of
ask yourself what kind of social, family and personal life you want to have in future, if you are aiming to be next Elon then go ahead and work yourself to the ground, there is a non zero chance you make it big
ask yourself whether you want to be working like this for next XX years, when you are older, need more sleep, health issues start showing up, possibly have children or elderly to take care of
ask yourself what kind of social, family and personal life you want to have in future, if you are aiming to be next Elon then go ahead and work yourself to the ground, there is a non zero chance you make it big
w.r.t your last sentence, maybe you could seek a truthful answer from a colleague with caring responsibilities (elderly/disabled relatives and/or kids), to the Q "Do my long hours and extra productivity stress you out by making you feel bad in comparison and would you rather I didn't?" . Its not great if others feel under pressure to do what you do too. OTOH, not great either if your own enthusiasm were to be suppressed by other people's inability to do the same. Making it work for both camps may be a delicate thing for management to handle, IMHO
This strikes me as overthinking the situation. If you like working and it doesn't cause other problems for you, go for it.
You get plenty of sleep, exercise, and manage to take breaks. You read books and are in a good relationship. And you like what you do. It sounds like you're living the dream.
Maybe try to spend more time outside in nature.
Maybe try to spend more time outside in nature.
>Am I working too hard?
Maybe? If you are budgeting time to do reading, exercise, and spending time with people you want to invest in, it doesn't sound like it.
I'm far enough along in my career that a lot of my work is fairly interesting(at the very least some OSS work that is related to my job is), to the point where I'd prefer doing it to playing most video games. It's intellectually stimulating. Nothing wrong with that.
Balance is important to avoiding burnout, so if you're worried about burnout, I'd just tip the scales for a month or two to budget a bit more time either exercising or reading (or a new hobby?) and after a couple months, re-evaluate.
Maybe? If you are budgeting time to do reading, exercise, and spending time with people you want to invest in, it doesn't sound like it.
I'm far enough along in my career that a lot of my work is fairly interesting(at the very least some OSS work that is related to my job is), to the point where I'd prefer doing it to playing most video games. It's intellectually stimulating. Nothing wrong with that.
Balance is important to avoiding burnout, so if you're worried about burnout, I'd just tip the scales for a month or two to budget a bit more time either exercising or reading (or a new hobby?) and after a couple months, re-evaluate.
I have a questionable habit of working into the evening, and sometimes on weekends. I do drink enough water, lightly exercise, and sleep 9+ hours every night. I take plenty of breaks. I don't do any large side projects - every couple months I will come across an interesting toy problem and may write a blog post about it for "portfolio development".
I've been with my partner for 4 years, and we have a deep and loving relationship. We're both in software, and went to university together.
I find coding fun, and I enjoy helping out the company I work for.
Recently on HN there has been a surge of posts about burnout. I've read people's stories and see parallels with my own experience. I worry that I may be going down the wrong path and harming myself or my brain.
I used to enjoy video games a lot, but have found that I just can't get into them anymore. Spending my time and energy doesn't seem meaningful anymore unless I put it into something tangible - I pay too much attention to the hedonistic cycle / core-game-loop to enjoy myself. I do read fiction often and frequently.
There may also be a moral hazard - by investing my own time into my work, I disadvantage others who are not willing or able to do so, by seeming even more productive than my baseline.
Am I working too hard?