When did we start signing our names to authenticate documents? (2011)(slate.com)
slate.com
When did we start signing our names to authenticate documents? (2011)
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/03/when-did-we-start-signing-our-names-to-authenticate-documents.html
42 comments
As a sort of logical aside:
Split tallies were used, effectively a lock and key mechanism of receipt. A stick was marked with a contract and broken in two. If you've ever broken a piece of wood, you'll know the roughness it embodies is remarkable, and on top of that the wood itself is intrinsically patterned and readily identifiable by even cursory examination. Thus it was virtually impossible to replicate. As to how these things were enforced, I do not know. Paper contracts also leveraged this model of receipt validation for some time.
Split tallies were used, effectively a lock and key mechanism of receipt. A stick was marked with a contract and broken in two. If you've ever broken a piece of wood, you'll know the roughness it embodies is remarkable, and on top of that the wood itself is intrinsically patterned and readily identifiable by even cursory examination. Thus it was virtually impossible to replicate. As to how these things were enforced, I do not know. Paper contracts also leveraged this model of receipt validation for some time.
slow
golf
clap
Really well done, I was amazed initially. But a series of drawings... ok. Buses. MWAHAHAHAHA
golf
clap
Really well done, I was amazed initially. But a series of drawings... ok. Buses. MWAHAHAHAHA
[deleted]
> Seals also appear in the Bible
This sentence shows the cultural and religious focus of the author, to the point it hides a richer history. Seals were used in this region thousand of years before the Hebrew tribes appeared.
The cylinder seals of Mesopotamia are my favorites. It was simple to use (roll it on the clay that wraps the tablet). Forgery was hard. And some of the seals were marvelous art. Rich people often had Lapis Lazuli seals, from stones excavated in modern Afghanistan. Many seals are in museums, with images available online.
This sentence shows the cultural and religious focus of the author, to the point it hides a richer history. Seals were used in this region thousand of years before the Hebrew tribes appeared.
The cylinder seals of Mesopotamia are my favorites. It was simple to use (roll it on the clay that wraps the tablet). Forgery was hard. And some of the seals were marvelous art. Rich people often had Lapis Lazuli seals, from stones excavated in modern Afghanistan. Many seals are in museums, with images available online.
>This sentence shows the cultural and religious focus of the author, to the point it hides a richer history.
Referencing the best selling book of all time doesn't reveal any cultural or religious focus. Especially considering that the previous paragraph was about Jews and Muslims.
Referencing the best selling book of all time doesn't reveal any cultural or religious focus. Especially considering that the previous paragraph was about Jews and Muslims.
> Referencing the best selling book of all time doesn't reveal any cultural or religious focus
“Best selling book of all time” is a classic trope of Christians in the USA. It’s possible you can’t see that factor (along the lines of the “a fish doesn’t know it’s wet” metaphor).
“Best selling book of all time” is a classic trope of Christians in the USA. It’s possible you can’t see that factor (along the lines of the “a fish doesn’t know it’s wet” metaphor).
It's like saying "arabic numerals were even used in USA". Sure - they were, like everywhere else, for centuries before.
Please think hard if this reveals your own cultural or religious focus.
Honestly, I can't believe that book sold so many copies. The first one starts off well, with some really great subplots, but then it starts going on about all these weird rules that feel sorta dated, all about seafood and chlamydia. Just when it was getting good, too. And it makes it really hard to convert for TV - I can't imagine Netflix will pick it up. Anyway, then the sequel, it starts a generation later. That God chap doesn't show up so much, and instead it's all about his kid Jesus, who's a bit of a social justice warrior, banging on about capitalism and doing weird stuff with food. The only real plot tension comes when the book finally kills him off, but then it uses this lazy deux ex machina contrivance to bring him back. And the sequel had so much potential too, it could have rescued the series. It could have really explored Jesus's complex relationship with his dad. It might be worth it if you're on a long flight and really desperate, but really I'd just go for something like Harry Potter if I were you. 0/5 stars.
The general plot seems popular so there have been many remakes as well as de novo versions (just as Shakespeare wrote new stories from plot elements of old ones). In fact parts of that book use the same technique.
The question I have is- when will we start signing documents with keys at scale? What will it take to make the DocuSign with keys?
Very few people understand the basic ideas behind cryptographic signatures. So some education would be required first.
Completely agree. Am working in the space and it is unusable for regular humans. Question was mostly rhetorical.
Good one.
I think a signature these days mean that you claim to have read and understood the document — rather than authentication.
After all, when was the last time most of us signed a cheque?
I think a signature these days mean that you claim to have read and understood the document — rather than authentication.
After all, when was the last time most of us signed a cheque?
I had this issue trying to buy a house. My bank was refusing to do the transfer because they "couldn't authenticate my signature". It turns out that one specific signature on one of the signup documents becomes your canonical signature and they match large transfers against that. Of course this random signature half-way through a 30 page agreement was really lazy and didn't look much like my "real" signature (which they have dozens of copies of by now).
I was sitting on my phone with bad connection during a camping trip trying to scribble a signature that looked like the magic reference signature (that I didn't know) so that my purchase didn't fall through.
What a stupid way to authenticate people.
I was sitting on my phone with bad connection during a camping trip trying to scribble a signature that looked like the magic reference signature (that I didn't know) so that my purchase didn't fall through.
What a stupid way to authenticate people.
I had some paperwork refused on my business account with Lloyds because it "didn't match the signature on file" — I went in to the bank with photo ID and got my stuff sorted and happened to ask "Can I see the signature that you have on file for me?" (because generally it doesn't change that much for me time-to-time) — it was a completely different person! Wasn't even my name.
The cashier agreed with me that it _clearly_ wasn't my signature & "didn't know how it happened". I was in a big rush that day & no longer have the account, but I really regret not escalating it though.
The cashier agreed with me that it _clearly_ wasn't my signature & "didn't know how it happened". I was in a big rush that day & no longer have the account, but I really regret not escalating it though.
Given I signed up for my primary bank account at age 14, it's more likely than not that my signature is nothing like whatever they kept from then. My handwriting has had over 10 years to deteriorate since I finished school and basically stopped handwriting anything that wasn't a signature.
It's especially a stupid way when you don't even have a pen, in the case of DocuSign where you have to write something with a mouse. The vast majority of people just scribble a random shape since its impossible to pen your signature on a trackpad. A Phishermans dream I expect.
Five years ago I moved to eastern Oregon and I was shocked at the number of checks I had to start writing.
The cleaning service and the car detailing service were cash or check only as was every vendor at the farmers market - which as small operations kind of makes sense.
But so was the propane service, garbage service, the dump - and the electrical utility charged $36 a year to use an E-check (no credit cards accepted).
I wrote a lot of checks.
The cleaning service and the car detailing service were cash or check only as was every vendor at the farmers market - which as small operations kind of makes sense.
But so was the propane service, garbage service, the dump - and the electrical utility charged $36 a year to use an E-check (no credit cards accepted).
I wrote a lot of checks.
The last place I rented (about 5 years ago), in a major metro area, my landlord would only accept a check from a local bank. I mostly used on-line bank accounts, but I had one account at a CU with a branch 30 minutes away. They would drive to the CU to deposit the check each month.
Most of the checks "I" write are actually written and delivered by my bank. That's the case with utilities, garbage, etc. But checks still are the easiest and most natural way to give a person or a service person money on the spot most of the time. I'll use Apple Pay or whatever if that's what someone wants but a check is easy and straightforward.
I had to do a second-factor authentication with my bank not too long ago. I had written a cheque for an unusual purchase; they called me and said "there was an issue with the signature check on a cheque you wrote" so I logged in, verified my identity and approved it manually.
I assume that they only checked the signature because the payment was outside of my normal habits, because my signature is an inconsistent mess in the best of times (I sign about 10 cheques/year because reasons).
The worst case for me is the stylus pads at checkouts. I can barely use those coherently when I'm not under pressure, so when there are people behind me in line and a cashier waiting for me to leave, the social anxiety kicks in and I get a pair of initials and some extra lines, at best.
I assume that they only checked the signature because the payment was outside of my normal habits, because my signature is an inconsistent mess in the best of times (I sign about 10 cheques/year because reasons).
The worst case for me is the stylus pads at checkouts. I can barely use those coherently when I'm not under pressure, so when there are people behind me in line and a cashier waiting for me to leave, the social anxiety kicks in and I get a pair of initials and some extra lines, at best.
In many countries, a signature has a special legal meaning. Forging a signature is illegal, and your own signature, however badly written, even if it doesn't match, is considered legit.
That allows companies to get any old doodle from you and it can be considered (part of evidence for) a legally binding agreement.
That allows companies to get any old doodle from you and it can be considered (part of evidence for) a legally binding agreement.
That's why you write “I DO NOT ACCEPT THE TERMS” as your signature. (Obviously not when you're trying to accept a contract, though.)
Whenever I have to put a signature, which is rare, I tell them I don’t have a signature. Because I don’t, really, not one I’d trust not to be faked. I haven’t used a signature on a debit/credit card for 20 years and it’s never once been challenged. It’s blank.
The only ‘signatures’ I’ve provided have been on a mortgage, a marriage cert, and a passport. Because they insisted. I doubt they match.
Decades since I’ve written a check.
Maybe I’ve provided some scrawl on a bank account application? Little memory and I do a sort of Mr Messy drawing that I’d never be able to copy. I take the same approach with some online passwords since it’s easy enough to reset a Netflix password once than find it in a password app.
I'd always heard (no evidence atm) that pin pads etc are designed to be uncomfortable to make forgery more difficult (proving that signatures are compared).
I just put a straight line on the stylus pad at checkouts. No one cares.
Nobody has ever cared at checkouts, but my state requires that you use a stylus pad to enter your signature for your driver's license (it gets printed right on the card). In early 2020 I used my driver's license renewal as an opportunity to update my voting registration (I had just moved), and apparently that stylus pad signature ended up being my "check" signature for my vote-by-mail for the 2020 election. Of course, I had my ballot bounce and had to provide further identification, because there's no way I'm getting my signature from a stylus pad to match one on paper.
>After all, when was the last time most of us signed a cheque?
Last week.
I don't write a lot of checks but there are a fair number of service people, for example, where that's the standard way of paying them.
Certainly my signature is just a scrawl at this point though.
Last week.
I don't write a lot of checks but there are a fair number of service people, for example, where that's the standard way of paying them.
Certainly my signature is just a scrawl at this point though.
I have a neighbor with a car with no muffler. Half the neighborhood just signed a letter to his landlord with our complaint. It's pretty impressive to have an entire page full of signatures, each one completely different. It went from being a sterile document written by a lawyer, to something that has normal people behind it.
Authenticate in this sense means to confirm legal validity or that a document is authoritative. Not that the document is an authentic document.
Absentee voting is a prominent example of authentication. Unfortunately, I've had my signature fail for voting in the past because I don't have a very consistent signature.
4 years ago I was in India I had to pay my rent every month by cheque. Funny enough that was also when I first saw my first cheques, and also learned how to fill/sign them.
I'm 31 years old and have never written a check in my life. I've never even bought a checkbook. If a card doesn't work, I use cash, or in a couple of edge cases I've used a cashier's check.
Fascinating. I’m older, but not significantly, and I still end up writing a check every once every few months. Mostly related to kids’ activities.
Surprised the article has no mention of verbal oaths as a precursor to signatures before widespread literacy. Ivan Illich writes about this in “ABC”
It's a shame that TFA has no mention of Indenture, which for all of it's associations with indentured servitude, was a very pragmatic solution for document authentication
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indenture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indenture
Relevant video on proving your identity in antiquity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alpKlV_MKgE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alpKlV_MKgE
no mention of notaries or people that witness contractual agreements? I feel this would provide even more context
Wealthier patrician households shared mail centers to retrieve messages sent from other provinces. When entering the mail center, you had to provide a series of code words that were changed every time new consuls were chosen. Then if the code words were accepted, the mail house would take a print of the right thumb and compare it against ink prints on file. If a patrician hadn't visited a mail house in a while, there was a third step to make extra sure of the patrician's authenticity. He would be shown a series of drawings, and would have to identify which ones contained buses.