Amazon warehouse employee in Poland dies at work(gloswielkopolski.pl)
gloswielkopolski.pl
Amazon warehouse employee in Poland dies at work
https://gloswielkopolski.pl/smierc-w-amazonie-potraktowali-go-jak-typowy-odpad-jak-smiecia-czy-49letni-pracownik-amazona-musial-umrzec/ar/c1-15844965
215 comments
What's a water spider?
"The water spider is a term that refers to a specific person whose main job is to make sure that materials are supplied to where they are needed. While this is mainly a material replenishment position, it offers a bit more flexibility, and some additional benefits if well-implemented. The rationale behind having such a person is to allow the rest of the personnel to devote their full attention to tasks that add value to the process. This also highlights how much transportation waste and inefficiency exists in the process by isolating it all into one or more positions."
https://www.shmula.com/what-is-the-role-of-the-waterspider-i...
https://www.shmula.com/what-is-the-role-of-the-waterspider-i...
I found this:
https://www.flexpipeinc.com/ca_en/role_of_waterspider/
> Water spider is a term that refers to a specific person whose main job is to take care of intermittent tasks such as supplying material at workstations.
https://www.flexpipeinc.com/ca_en/role_of_waterspider/
> Water spider is a term that refers to a specific person whose main job is to take care of intermittent tasks such as supplying material at workstations.
According to https://kanbantool.com/kanban-guide/water-spider:
> A water spider is a Lean production personnel role centered around timely and accurate stock replenishment. The water spider team member is similar to a mobile Kanban system that refills the production line with the required materials to maintain a steady flow.
> A water spider is a Lean production personnel role centered around timely and accurate stock replenishment. The water spider team member is similar to a mobile Kanban system that refills the production line with the required materials to maintain a steady flow.
I had not heard the term either. Based on what others have written here, the position sounds similar to, but not exactly the same as, what manufacturing companies call an expeditor: A person assigned to the manufacturing floor who gets hot (late) orders finished and shipped as soon as possible.
An expeditor works on (late) customer orders, and does what is necessary.
The water spider supports the people working on customer orders.
I'd consider that a major difference, but your mileage may vary :)
I'd consider that a major difference, but your mileage may vary :)
It was "rover" or "free safety" a long time ago when I worked in a factory. Both borrowed American football terms that seem to fit reasonably well.
It’s the only species of spider known to live entirely underwater.
> He asked the team lead to call a medic (there were medical care worked employed by Amazon) but he refused and offered to walk him to the medic instead.
This is the step that most people would point out as the main 'mistake'. However, a medic without his equipment isn't a lot of use, and it's pretty likely the facility had a medical bay. For a patient who can walk, taking them to the medical bay will probably lead to better care quicker than calling the medic out. Walking there with someone is a very sensible precaution.
Imagine the reverse... Medic called to employee. Medic doesn't have defibrillator in equipment bag (it's filled with stuff for more common accidents). Employee dies because now the medic has to make the journey from the medical bay to the employee four times, taking far too long.
This is the step that most people would point out as the main 'mistake'. However, a medic without his equipment isn't a lot of use, and it's pretty likely the facility had a medical bay. For a patient who can walk, taking them to the medical bay will probably lead to better care quicker than calling the medic out. Walking there with someone is a very sensible precaution.
Imagine the reverse... Medic called to employee. Medic doesn't have defibrillator in equipment bag (it's filled with stuff for more common accidents). Employee dies because now the medic has to make the journey from the medical bay to the employee four times, taking far too long.
This is extraordinarily dangerous advice.
The description given above is likely a myocardial infarction or an aortic dissection.
If you are having chest pain, you should minimize myocardial demand. Sit down. Call emergency services.
Do not exert yourself by walking. That is a recipe for sudden cardiac death.
The description given above is likely a myocardial infarction or an aortic dissection.
If you are having chest pain, you should minimize myocardial demand. Sit down. Call emergency services.
Do not exert yourself by walking. That is a recipe for sudden cardiac death.
Completely agree but an expectation that the nearest colleague should know this is unrealistic.
Is it though? If it is your team lead who apparently has the managerial power to deny you a medic, they certainly should also be required to be competent enough to make that decision.
Anything else is just an accident waiting to happen (and in this case, did happen).
Anything else is just an accident waiting to happen (and in this case, did happen).
If you think someone is having a heart attack please call the emergency services immediately and hope you don't need a defibrillator or to perform CPR.
Edit: To add I had one in May despite being fit, young-ish and with no cardio-vascular problems. It came on whilst swimming and I foolishly carried on through it, got dressed and walked home, lay down for a bit before I got my wife to take me to the emergency room where they did approximately 4 seconds of EKG before stuffing me full of drugs and rushing me to surgery via an ambulance. For an idea of the level of potential for dying the ambulance came with a doctor as well as paramedics.
Edit: To add I had one in May despite being fit, young-ish and with no cardio-vascular problems. It came on whilst swimming and I foolishly carried on through it, got dressed and walked home, lay down for a bit before I got my wife to take me to the emergency room where they did approximately 4 seconds of EKG before stuffing me full of drugs and rushing me to surgery via an ambulance. For an idea of the level of potential for dying the ambulance came with a doctor as well as paramedics.
This is really scary. How did you know you were having a heart attack?
I didn't. I was ill the previous week and woke up on the Thursday during the night with what I thought was really bad heartburn even though I don't really get it. Eventually fell back asleep and bought some antacids over the weekend. Weekend was pretty eventful, taking kids on walks and doing a lot of that with them on my shoulders.
So on the Monday I went swimming and thought the pain was related to being still a bit sick or heartburn. The reason I went to the hospital was the antacids weren't doing anything and it was pretty painful. I also nearly threw up in the changing rooms at the pool.
By the time I got to the hospital I was actually feeling quite a bit better and feeling a bit sheepish about being there. Then they hooked me up to the EKG and I knew something was very wrong by everyone going into overdrive. I didn't know how wrong until after the surgery (you're awake through the PCI) and the surgeon took me through what was going on. Basically I was minutes away from dying as my left coronary artery was completely blocked. They had to stent the clot to fix things.
The aftermath is that there wasn't a known cause. I have no chronic issues, or clotting issues and my arteries themselves are perfectly healthy. I was lucky and there was no visible damage to the heart. I'm back exercising again and now in my second set of rehab.
So on the Monday I went swimming and thought the pain was related to being still a bit sick or heartburn. The reason I went to the hospital was the antacids weren't doing anything and it was pretty painful. I also nearly threw up in the changing rooms at the pool.
By the time I got to the hospital I was actually feeling quite a bit better and feeling a bit sheepish about being there. Then they hooked me up to the EKG and I knew something was very wrong by everyone going into overdrive. I didn't know how wrong until after the surgery (you're awake through the PCI) and the surgeon took me through what was going on. Basically I was minutes away from dying as my left coronary artery was completely blocked. They had to stent the clot to fix things.
The aftermath is that there wasn't a known cause. I have no chronic issues, or clotting issues and my arteries themselves are perfectly healthy. I was lucky and there was no visible damage to the heart. I'm back exercising again and now in my second set of rehab.
Would an Apple Watch have caught this fluctuations in your heart? Glad you made it through this scary incident.
I think it would have highlighted issues earlier. In hindsight I definitely has flutters that I maybe should have gotten checked out. That said Apple themselves say that the watch won’t detect a heart attack. Presumably the bar for a device that does that reliably is pretty high.
> Medic doesn't have defibrillator in equipment bag
In Germany defibrillators are openly available in most public buildings and I think any industrial setting has to have them easily accessible too. They're as idiot proof as it gets: you push a big button and follow the instructions (automated voice commands, but I think there is also a text display as backup).
I don't know what the laws are like in Poland but all I'm saying is that this scenario you propose could easily be solved with basic health and safety regulations.
You're also ignoring that they could have called the medic while also moving him in the direction of the medical facility, assuming the movement didn't contribute to his death. Not to mention that a trained emergency medic should know what equipment to bring based on reported symptoms.
In Germany defibrillators are openly available in most public buildings and I think any industrial setting has to have them easily accessible too. They're as idiot proof as it gets: you push a big button and follow the instructions (automated voice commands, but I think there is also a text display as backup).
I don't know what the laws are like in Poland but all I'm saying is that this scenario you propose could easily be solved with basic health and safety regulations.
You're also ignoring that they could have called the medic while also moving him in the direction of the medical facility, assuming the movement didn't contribute to his death. Not to mention that a trained emergency medic should know what equipment to bring based on reported symptoms.
I took a CPR/First aid class a few months ago and one of the things we were told was to grab the portable defibrillator or know where one is nearby. Our office defib is no larger than a lunch box so not sure why a medic wouldn’t carry one. Also heart attacks is one of the most common incidents. 25% of my CPR training was dedicated to using it properly.
Defibrillators easily fit in EMT go bags and are carried along with oxygen and other mechanical devices.
Google Translator partly:
>Grzegorz (name changed) works in Amazon's warehouse in Sady near Poznań, who agreed to anonymously tell about the events of the beginning of September. - I remember that the day before, on September 5, this man asked the leader to assign someone to help, because he was not working anymore - he says. - The leader refused. The man who died later was to go on the next day with a complaint to the OPS manager, i.e. the main manager of a given department. He did not make it anymore. He was a very hardworking man. I wouldn't be able to refuse him anything. When he had breaks, he ate a sandwich and quickly returned to work. Look for such people with a candle. It really turned out what kind of insurance we have. We are meaningless pawns.
>According to Grzegorz, one piece of information has not been made public.
>- The very beginning of this event was not treated as an approach of man to man. The man, who reported the problem with catching his breath, was walking to the rescuer on his own quite a long distance, from point A to point B. It was a culpable mistake. In case of shortness of breath, he should not go there. The leader was walking beside him, but he was not helping him, not even as a support. Due to the safety rules related to COVID-19. It was the same leader who had refused to help the man the day before. They treated you like garbage, like typical waste
>Grzegorz (name changed) works in Amazon's warehouse in Sady near Poznań, who agreed to anonymously tell about the events of the beginning of September. - I remember that the day before, on September 5, this man asked the leader to assign someone to help, because he was not working anymore - he says. - The leader refused. The man who died later was to go on the next day with a complaint to the OPS manager, i.e. the main manager of a given department. He did not make it anymore. He was a very hardworking man. I wouldn't be able to refuse him anything. When he had breaks, he ate a sandwich and quickly returned to work. Look for such people with a candle. It really turned out what kind of insurance we have. We are meaningless pawns.
>According to Grzegorz, one piece of information has not been made public.
>- The very beginning of this event was not treated as an approach of man to man. The man, who reported the problem with catching his breath, was walking to the rescuer on his own quite a long distance, from point A to point B. It was a culpable mistake. In case of shortness of breath, he should not go there. The leader was walking beside him, but he was not helping him, not even as a support. Due to the safety rules related to COVID-19. It was the same leader who had refused to help the man the day before. They treated you like garbage, like typical waste
Story time!
My friend is a very hard-working person. So, he was working in a Amazon warehouse in Scotland. In two years, he never missed a day or was late.
Then, he got this terrible thing when you get high temperature, nausea etc. He still went to work, commute taking hour. He was barely able to sit in a bus, because his face was green and his head was heavy and he was almost puking.
He gets to work and explains this. Manager tells him: "You can either start work, or you can go now, but then, don't come tomorrow". So, he did exactly that.
My friend is a very hard-working person. So, he was working in a Amazon warehouse in Scotland. In two years, he never missed a day or was late.
Then, he got this terrible thing when you get high temperature, nausea etc. He still went to work, commute taking hour. He was barely able to sit in a bus, because his face was green and his head was heavy and he was almost puking.
He gets to work and explains this. Manager tells him: "You can either start work, or you can go now, but then, don't come tomorrow". So, he did exactly that.
>>Manager tells him: "You can either start work, or you can go now, but then, don't come tomorrow". So, he did exactly that.
If he was employeed full time and been there for more than 2 years, then that's literally illegal.
If he was employeed full time and been there for more than 2 years, then that's literally illegal.
Is it really the case in the UK that working in a position for 2 years is a requirement before it becomes illegal to fire a person for going home sick once? What a sorry state of affairs.
Well, not quite, but in practice yes. In UK it's legal to let someone go without providing any reason whatsoever within the first 2 years of employment(you still have to observe the minimum amount of notice however, or pay it out). So while it is still illegal to let someone go due to sickness, a company can just terminate your contract without providing a reason why - they just don't have to. After 2 years you would have to be made redundant first, and that's quite a lot of work for an employer.
You don't have to be made redundant, you just need to have a formal process with the opportunity of the employee to change. So there's a distinction between a fair dismissal and an unfair one in the UK. For a fair one you must have a dismissal process that was followed, like a verbal warning (employer logs this), written warning, final warning, fired.
You can also dismiss someone if they can no longer do their job, e.g. a driver who loses their licence
You can also dismiss someone if they can no longer do their job, e.g. a driver who loses their licence
Well yes, my point is that there are only 3 ways to "fire" someone in the UK after the initial 2 years, and none of them are what you'd call "at will". If you hired someone and they worked for you over 2 years, then you can't just get rid of them because you fancy it, circumstances have to change either with them or with your company to allow it. The ways are:
1) redundancy - which carries a legal proof of showing that the position is no longer needed, and you are not allowed to hire anyone else for the same or similar position for a length of time
2) end of contract due to performance issues - that is even more lengthy than the redundancy path usually, you have to clearly demonstrate that someone's performance has been inadequate, with a clearly demonstrable metric, but also you need to give the employee a chance to improve. Extra training, "performance improvement plans", at the very least written warnings etc. This process usually takes 6 months at minimum in order to satisfy all the legal bits around it.
3) immediate dismissal due to breaking the law, being caught stealing, driving drunk, destroying company property...this sort of stuff. The employer still has the legal burden of demonstrating that the stuff in question happened, but a police report is usually enough. I suppose something like a driver losing their licence and then literally being unable to do their job falls under this too.
None of the above allow for "you're sick? don't bother coming in tomorrow" scenario. If OP's friend's manager actually did say that, then it's a clear path for a lawsuit for unfair dismissal.
1) redundancy - which carries a legal proof of showing that the position is no longer needed, and you are not allowed to hire anyone else for the same or similar position for a length of time
2) end of contract due to performance issues - that is even more lengthy than the redundancy path usually, you have to clearly demonstrate that someone's performance has been inadequate, with a clearly demonstrable metric, but also you need to give the employee a chance to improve. Extra training, "performance improvement plans", at the very least written warnings etc. This process usually takes 6 months at minimum in order to satisfy all the legal bits around it.
3) immediate dismissal due to breaking the law, being caught stealing, driving drunk, destroying company property...this sort of stuff. The employer still has the legal burden of demonstrating that the stuff in question happened, but a police report is usually enough. I suppose something like a driver losing their licence and then literally being unable to do their job falls under this too.
None of the above allow for "you're sick? don't bother coming in tomorrow" scenario. If OP's friend's manager actually did say that, then it's a clear path for a lawsuit for unfair dismissal.
What would a company do if they are short on cashflow and orders?
Go bankrupt? Borrow money to pay your staff? Ask various institutions for help? Arrange some kind of deal with your employees where you will pay them later if they agree to wait?
Like, "letting someone go because we ran out of money" is not a valid reason for dismissal.
Like, "letting someone go because we ran out of money" is not a valid reason for dismissal.
Going bankrupt leads to the same result. During the bankruptcy proceedings labor has no claims.
Many many firms already cover payroll with loans, eventually financiers will stop extending credit.
That said, layoffs are legal, if the firm goes through the required steps.
Many many firms already cover payroll with loans, eventually financiers will stop extending credit.
That said, layoffs are legal, if the firm goes through the required steps.
No, it's a bit misleading. If you've been employed for less that 2 years, the employer doesn't have to give you a written statement giving the reasons and you cannot claim unfair dismissal unless you believe the reason falls under one of the automatically unfair criteria (such as pregancy, health and safety, discrimination etc). Going home sick could potentially be argued as health and safety, so it would be worth getting legal advice on the issue if that happens.
It's not the first case of work-related death in an Amazon warehouse in Poland; nor it is the first such case in Amazon globally. Most of those deaths happen because of appalling work conditions or management incompetence.
A similar case from Amazon, where the worker was lying unconscious for 20 minutes before receiving help (he died): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-wa...
In normal companies, an accident like this leads to an overhaul of the working systems, internal audits, conversations with employees, and so on. So many IT companies have post-mortems for what can objectively be called the silliest stuff (compared to an actual death of an actual person). But here is Amazon, with its history of endangering its workforce, that once again will do nothing.
A similar case from Amazon, where the worker was lying unconscious for 20 minutes before receiving help (he died): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-wa...
In normal companies, an accident like this leads to an overhaul of the working systems, internal audits, conversations with employees, and so on. So many IT companies have post-mortems for what can objectively be called the silliest stuff (compared to an actual death of an actual person). But here is Amazon, with its history of endangering its workforce, that once again will do nothing.
> Most of those deaths happen because of appalling work conditions
We need data to be sure of this. Remember when all those people making iPhones committed suicide because of the terrible working conditions [1]?
But further investigation then found that suicide rates amongst workers were actually lower than suicide rates of regular people in China or the USA...
This might well be a story like that. Without data we can't know.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
We need data to be sure of this. Remember when all those people making iPhones committed suicide because of the terrible working conditions [1]?
But further investigation then found that suicide rates amongst workers were actually lower than suicide rates of regular people in China or the USA...
This might well be a story like that. Without data we can't know.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
>> or management incompetence.
Seems to be absolutely the case here. The worker has reported to his "leader" that he's feeling unwell but was ignored. I'd expect criminal charges to be brought against him at this point.
I think Amazon can implement whatever solution they want, but if your manager ignores a very direct report of feeling unwell then what else can you do?
>>But here is Amazon, with its history of endangering its workforce, that once again will do nothing.
Well, we'll see what happens in this case. Polish prosecutors can be very zealous(for better or worse) so I don't think "nothing" is on the table.
Seems to be absolutely the case here. The worker has reported to his "leader" that he's feeling unwell but was ignored. I'd expect criminal charges to be brought against him at this point.
I think Amazon can implement whatever solution they want, but if your manager ignores a very direct report of feeling unwell then what else can you do?
>>But here is Amazon, with its history of endangering its workforce, that once again will do nothing.
Well, we'll see what happens in this case. Polish prosecutors can be very zealous(for better or worse) so I don't think "nothing" is on the table.
The problem is that the manager's behavior is likely a result of incentives. It's not that managers at amazon are worse people than managers at other companies. And if their incentives make it so hard for them to allow longer breaks or help employees that are feeling unwell, it is Amazon's fault that this happened.
And I'm sure the stated policy even within Amazon is that a medical issue should be immediately reported and a medic called. If the manager disregarded that policy for whatever perceived or real incentive...then that's still their fault.
This is disregarding reality. If incentives aren't aligned with policy then you'll get bad outcomes. If the company says "report medical issues" and also "no downtime" then you won't always get people reporting issues.
Sure. And it's a problem within the company that amazon will have to fix. But right now, for prosecutors, I can only imagine that the manager will be found criminally liable.
The incentives matter: what is the process that the manager is expected to follow? What is the impact on the manager's own employment metrics for allowing sick employees to leave?
(Note that the latter is a problem in lots more places; see "Bradford factor")
(Note that the latter is a problem in lots more places; see "Bradford factor")
I agree that the person directly responsible for this tragedy is the manager, but this category of cockups almost always has systemic reasons.
In other words, we can punish the local manager, but that won't fix the fact that the corporate leadership of Amazon seems to foster an environment where this kind of management is accepted and perhaps even encouraged.
I have never worked at Amazon (and by the sounds of things, I never want to either), but it sounds like a dystopian nightmare. And we should not be surprised when people optimize their behavior to the dystopian nightmare if that's the environment that they have to succeed in.
In other words, we can punish the local manager, but that won't fix the fact that the corporate leadership of Amazon seems to foster an environment where this kind of management is accepted and perhaps even encouraged.
I have never worked at Amazon (and by the sounds of things, I never want to either), but it sounds like a dystopian nightmare. And we should not be surprised when people optimize their behavior to the dystopian nightmare if that's the environment that they have to succeed in.
There is a lot that you can do, pointing out a single manager as scapegoat for systematic failure won't solve anything.
You can make sure that the incentives in the organisation aligns with preventing deaths like these.
You can educate your workforce.
You can hire more people.
And so on.
You can make sure that the incentives in the organisation aligns with preventing deaths like these.
You can educate your workforce.
You can hire more people.
And so on.
Not a whole lot of consequences after they were found to employ self-proclaimed neonazis to keep literal slaves working in a German warehouse either. Amazon is irredeemable and nobody should buy anything from them.
Your comment belongs to some sort of dystopian fiction, but it’s sort of real as Amazon uses third parties so the blame doesn’t really ‘lies’ with Amazon, sickening.
> BERLIN — The workers came from across Europe to pack boxes for the online retailer Amazon at distribution centers in Germany during the Christmas rush. They did not expect to be watched over — some say intimidated — by thugs in neo-Nazi-style clothing and jackboots.
> On Friday, Amazon said it was investigating claims made in a documentary that a subcontractor employed security guards with neo-Nazi ties to oversee the immigrant workers. > The documentary, broadcast Wednesday on the ARD public television network, showed guards in black uniforms with H.E.S.S., after Hensel European Security Services, but also the last name of Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess, emblazoned on their chests.
> According to the film, security guards employed by the subcontractor scared and intimidated hundreds of temporary workers from Hungary, Poland, Spain and other European countries.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/world/europe/amazon-to-in...
> BERLIN — The workers came from across Europe to pack boxes for the online retailer Amazon at distribution centers in Germany during the Christmas rush. They did not expect to be watched over — some say intimidated — by thugs in neo-Nazi-style clothing and jackboots.
> On Friday, Amazon said it was investigating claims made in a documentary that a subcontractor employed security guards with neo-Nazi ties to oversee the immigrant workers. > The documentary, broadcast Wednesday on the ARD public television network, showed guards in black uniforms with H.E.S.S., after Hensel European Security Services, but also the last name of Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess, emblazoned on their chests.
> According to the film, security guards employed by the subcontractor scared and intimidated hundreds of temporary workers from Hungary, Poland, Spain and other European countries.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/world/europe/amazon-to-in...
The worst thing about telling people about why they should boycott Amazon IRL is that they just don't believe it. It sounds so outlandish that even with proof (such as this newspaper article) you can tell it doesn't really land. Very sad.
Can confirm, I just don't 'believe' it. I do not think that Amazon was knowingly employing neo-nazis.
They benefited hugely from this and I have to this day not seen a public commitment to change things to make sure this does not happen. Even if Amazon was unaware of what they were doing, the fact that afterwards they mostly just papered over it and went on with their lives lends it a tacit approval ("don't get caught again"). If you don't see how this makes them evil, I think we just will never agree on it :)
How did they benefit in any way? ( I read the article but didn't watch the documentary).
It sounds like they needed security guards, and the firm they hired turned out to be one that liked to play fascist dress-up.
Did they benefit more than if they had hired normal security?
It sounds like they needed security guards, and the firm they hired turned out to be one that liked to play fascist dress-up.
Did they benefit more than if they had hired normal security?
The firm kept slaves (took passports, no pay, etc) to do the work in the warehouses that were guarded. Free labour is very cheap, that would be how they benefited.
How do you diagnose this as death from overwork? This seems a convenient view of the incident for those who want to push particular narrative against a popular boogeyman.
Of course Amazon has a duty of care to those suffering medical problems at work, but how do you jump from that to "death of overworking"?
Of course Amazon has a duty of care to those suffering medical problems at work, but how do you jump from that to "death of overworking"?
I imagine there are some physical markers. The stress hormone cortisol might be used to help diagnose it. Sleep problems aswell.
For those who can't read Polish: apparently what happened was that he passed out and became unconscious while working on the morning shift in the warehouse. He never recovered.
No, that would be a normal accident. What actually happened was there was too much work, he asked his manager to give his team more people but they refused, and finally agreed to send someone at the end of the day. The next day the guy felt pain in the chest, could hardly walk, but the manager said he has to walk to the paramedic on his own (wtf?). So he lost consciousness while trying and never managed to regain it. Sick company, sick management.
For many of us this is going to be the future, die at work. I think it is unfair to make people work over 50 given that you likely to be dead by the age 70, making the retirement age 65+ is crazy. It would be much better to split 20+ - 20-30 - 20+ (childhood, working, retired) our life especially for warehouse workers. Please do not tell me we do not have the money for this when most of the wealth is owned by the top 1% who horde it, hide it and not paying any tax on it. We blow money on wars(on terror, on drugs and so on) and yet we do not have money for people to retire and enjoy life? I do not think so.
I would love to work part-time
in a few years, but the US benefits and labor structure disincentivizes this.
The biggest trap of all is health insurance, where good benefits are impossible for the average person to afford; yet nationalized healthcare is out of reach until 65.
Instead of this all-or-nothing approach; I wish Medicare phased-in gradually, with supplemental insurance covering the gaps.
The biggest trap of all is health insurance, where good benefits are impossible for the average person to afford; yet nationalized healthcare is out of reach until 65.
Instead of this all-or-nothing approach; I wish Medicare phased-in gradually, with supplemental insurance covering the gaps.
How does someone die of overworking? At what point does one decide "fuck my health, I'll die for BigCorp"? And, where I'm going: a company will always ask as much work as possible from as few employees at possible. Up to what point is this the personal responsibility of the employee?
How much would you be willing to work if you'd have to pay rent, credits, take care that your wife and children get enough to eat? Also there's some bills because your wifes' car broke down and needed repair, the children need new clothes and there's this school trip coming up and also the roof is leaky and needs to be fixed which you can't do by yourself.
Long term short: While it's easy to judge from the outside, people will put their health in second place a lot of times if there are other problems.
Long term short: While it's easy to judge from the outside, people will put their health in second place a lot of times if there are other problems.
Also - in Poland Amazon warehouses are known for paying well above the average in the areas they are in, with good benefits. Every single article about them in Polish press usually points this out - yeah you're working for a megacorp, but that megacorp consistently pays more than any other employer in the area for unskilled work.
I think his point is that employees better take care of themselves than trusting a for profit organisation to do the equal job.
It isn't only with Amazon, there are plenty of managers who will cut corners or leave aside common sense with regards to the safety of their team members. Company policies can put safe guards in place, but in the end it doesn't take a genius to go around them.
The obsession with amazon is likely due to the fact it's a very profitable company, in the end, profit or not, employees should take care of their well being, most places I worked had a few individuals who would destroy themselves , just with overwork. We can blame the authorities, or take our responsibilities. The bills and debt arguments, put that on society as a whole for having so many people in precarious situations.
But if you continue, you’re dead or get a bad health/psycho condition. I think that 1) people should not start what they cannot afford in some reasonable term (including cars, family, kids, etc; i.e. living on the edge), 2) societies should stop to welcome this life style on all levels. I have many examples around when people started their “life” thinking that it all will sort out later. It never did.
This all stems from the social hypocrisy about what you can or cannot do. We are living in cities, not in the woods, and sometimes we cannot use our basic rights without strings attached. Yes, start your family, rent a house, buy a car, go for it. And smile yes-sir to the smirking sociopath who wipes his dirt on you because you’re on his hook and there is no turning back. It’s like an enslaving conspiracy, but on a “nod to each other” level.
people will put their health in second place a lot of times if there are other problem
Only because there is no other way to live their life. They may not live it, or may live it like that. There is usually no third option for the masses, except for a few exceptions.
This all stems from the social hypocrisy about what you can or cannot do. We are living in cities, not in the woods, and sometimes we cannot use our basic rights without strings attached. Yes, start your family, rent a house, buy a car, go for it. And smile yes-sir to the smirking sociopath who wipes his dirt on you because you’re on his hook and there is no turning back. It’s like an enslaving conspiracy, but on a “nod to each other” level.
people will put their health in second place a lot of times if there are other problem
Only because there is no other way to live their life. They may not live it, or may live it like that. There is usually no third option for the masses, except for a few exceptions.
>There is usually no third option for the masses, except for a few exceptions.
This is why we need UBI, so no person has to work a job they don't enjoy.
This is why we need UBI, so no person has to work a job they don't enjoy.
In general, it works like this: you notice a company is fucked up, and you leave. In theory, you could go to a competitor who offers better work conditions.
You don't go working in an Amazon warehouse if you have other options in life. It's for people who lost hope, in a way. According to the article, the family was very poor and the wife feels guilty he died trying to provide for her meds.
You don't go working in an Amazon warehouse if you have other options in life. It's for people who lost hope, in a way. According to the article, the family was very poor and the wife feels guilty he died trying to provide for her meds.
In Poland, there is a strong mentality of overworking yourself, especially when it comes to physical work. Sometimes colloquially referred to as "kultura zapierdolu". Basically, especially for older generations, if you don't come home from work exhausted you didn't work hard enough. And if you didn't work hard enough, you don't deserve to get paid.
I guess the mechanisms are similar for abusive companies, abusive relationships and abusive cults.
Predators select vulnerable people and gradually accustom them to worse and worse conditions.
Predators select vulnerable people and gradually accustom them to worse and worse conditions.
i reduced buying from amazon drasticly before. after reading this i do not think i can ever buy anything from amazon
It's a shame people don't think like this when it comes to AWS though. That's where the bulk of their profits come from after all.
Google has similarly bad business practices and beyond AWS and GCP there's Microsoft's Azure, which I don't think a lot of companies are keen on switching to.
Plus, most large companies care about profits. Not feelings or the death of a lowly worker. If you boycott the source you'll have to boycott the whole chain of things, and it'll have to be widespread and immediate for them to care.
I just don't see it happening. We're stuck with this timeline it seems :/
Plus, most large companies care about profits. Not feelings or the death of a lowly worker. If you boycott the source you'll have to boycott the whole chain of things, and it'll have to be widespread and immediate for them to care.
I just don't see it happening. We're stuck with this timeline it seems :/
I'd say consumer boycott makes you feel better and you should partake in it if you want to keep your integrity.
Still it is not the way to change things:
"All in all, I think it is a mistake to defend people’s rights with one hand tied behind our backs, using nothing except the individual option to say no to a deal. We should use democracy to organize and together impose limits on what the rich can do to the rest of us. That’s what democracy was invented for!" -- Richard Stallman
Still it is not the way to change things:
"All in all, I think it is a mistake to defend people’s rights with one hand tied behind our backs, using nothing except the individual option to say no to a deal. We should use democracy to organize and together impose limits on what the rich can do to the rest of us. That’s what democracy was invented for!" -- Richard Stallman
I agree with stallman's spirit but it's just as nebulous as boycotting - the average person cannot form their own democracy in a way that would effect change.
> Google has similarly bad business practices
Can you give some examples? Google don't run an online marketplace and they don't have huge warehouses or a a distribution network so I can't see how their business practices can be "similarly bad". I'm sure they do have bad business practices but I doubt they're in the realm of the inhumane conditions Amazon workers have to endure.
Can you give some examples? Google don't run an online marketplace and they don't have huge warehouses or a a distribution network so I can't see how their business practices can be "similarly bad". I'm sure they do have bad business practices but I doubt they're in the realm of the inhumane conditions Amazon workers have to endure.
I will move my apps out of AWS slowly within the next 6 months
No Netflix, no Disney plus, no HBO... Whatever about paying 10% more for a plastic rake, that's a bridge too far!
The company where you purchase stuff probably also has deaths at workplace, but it doesn’t get into news.
If anything is to change, individual consumer action won't do it; the workers would need to unionise.
FYI: In Germany, a lot of Amazon workers are unionized already. There are nation-wide unions that are not workplace-specific, and if I remember correctly, Amazon workers in Germany were on strike at least once.
In Poland however, unions are often frowned upon because of Poland's past, although there are one or two small workers union that have been helping the warehouse employees.
In Poland however, unions are often frowned upon because of Poland's past, although there are one or two small workers union that have been helping the warehouse employees.
Amazon is certainly worse than the average company domiciled in the US, but it is quantitatively and not qualitatively different. Capitalism requires employers to extract as much work out of employees as possible, lest competition overtake them.
No that is fatalistic. In the same way as Google and Facebook are leading the charge on Spyware-aaS, Amazon is leading the charge on crappy workplace conditions for warehouse and delivery workers.
But the size of Amazon amplifies the inherent problem and makes the whole thing a caricature of normal work conditions.
does Walmart have similar problems with employees being forced to work to death? I thought it was mainly because Amazon leadership are your inhumane rationalist optimiser types.
These kind of problems are invisible from stratosphere.
Safety of employers should be a priority for employers, spending a time at work should be less risky for health than being at home. Even for potentially more dangerous tasks, the safety has to scale accordingly.
I can hear quite often that work conditions at warehouses are terrible. How it's on the the IT side? Do they have the same culture? Is the IT part somehow supporting all workers on Amazon? Because if people are not consolidated - the secondary treatment of other jobs will continue.
Safety of employers should be a priority for employers, spending a time at work should be less risky for health than being at home. Even for potentially more dangerous tasks, the safety has to scale accordingly.
I can hear quite often that work conditions at warehouses are terrible. How it's on the the IT side? Do they have the same culture? Is the IT part somehow supporting all workers on Amazon? Because if people are not consolidated - the secondary treatment of other jobs will continue.
> These kind of problems are invisible from stratosphere.
Are they? I'd say it is common knowledge Amazon treat their workers really bad.
Are they? I'd say it is common knowledge Amazon treat their workers really bad.
I feel sorry for his family and it shouldn't happen. Maybe Amazon conditions and procedures aren't good enough, but people should pay attention to their bodies telling them something is off. When you're 49 it's no longer rinse-repeat, you can't just continuously run your engine at 120%…
But you need to make money. Not everyone is in a position where they can afford taking unpaid time off or quit a job because it's unhealthy. It's the employers responsibility to make sure workers can handle the workload.
I wish Amazon employs 50% more workforce and then force cut working hours for workers to 8 hours / day. Aka, you can't do overtime even if you want to.
But may be they did it. Or the workers don't want it. Or something else. It's not like Amazon didn't think of it themselves.
But may be they did it. Or the workers don't want it. Or something else. It's not like Amazon didn't think of it themselves.
I worked a string of temp jobs throughout college - usually via temp agencies. I too, did some similar gigs to Amazon warehouse.
Usually, both employee and employer want the overtime - more so for the employee, if the OT pay is attractive. When I worked night shifts in a mail sorting facility (11PM to 11AM), the OT pay was almost 100%
Employees want it because they can make more money without having to balance multiple gigs/jobs, employers because less employees = less paperwork and less people to manage.
Usually, both employee and employer want the overtime - more so for the employee, if the OT pay is attractive. When I worked night shifts in a mail sorting facility (11PM to 11AM), the OT pay was almost 100%
Employees want it because they can make more money without having to balance multiple gigs/jobs, employers because less employees = less paperwork and less people to manage.
And this is why regulation is needed. As long as employees want OT pay because otherwise they can't make a living, they will work (sometimes ridiculous) amounts of OT and companies will exploit that need of the workers. People having to work two full-time jobs or balancing "gig economy" modern slavery just to make rent? That only shows how broken the system is, especially when it comes to rents.
Fair wages and OT bans by law are the only way out - like in Germany, where you are not allowed to work more than 10 hours a day across all your jobs combined.
Fair wages and OT bans by law are the only way out - like in Germany, where you are not allowed to work more than 10 hours a day across all your jobs combined.
I don't agree with equating paid employment in a free society with slavery. I think that's distasteful rhetoric, however, the idea of a government imposing restriction on individual citizens' time to eradicate overtime, the only way for a substantial amount of people to get ahead in life, is closer to an inescapable situation than a busy minimum-wage job with overtime available.
> I don't agree with equating paid employment in a free society with slavery.
If people only have the choice between being exploited by Amazon in conditions that are beyond reasonable (e.g. having to piss in bottles, not getting lunch breaks), by "gig employers" shifting entrepreneurial risk towards employees (Uber, but also hospitality that doesn't pay minimum wage so people are depending on tips) or being homeless, then yes it is modern slavery.
If people only have the choice between being exploited by Amazon in conditions that are beyond reasonable (e.g. having to piss in bottles, not getting lunch breaks), by "gig employers" shifting entrepreneurial risk towards employees (Uber, but also hospitality that doesn't pay minimum wage so people are depending on tips) or being homeless, then yes it is modern slavery.
Yes, and to add to your comment, in Germany the Employer is responsible for monitoring those 10h limits of its employees. If for example and employee would die in an accident due to falling asleep while driving after more than 10h of work, the employer can be held accountable.
The problem is how do you define „make a living“ and what do you do if someone just wants extra €€€ beyond that?
I make fair money yet I still moonlighted a lot. Should I be allowed to work extra to have money for a sweet bicycle or travelling?
I make fair money yet I still moonlighted a lot. Should I be allowed to work extra to have money for a sweet bicycle or travelling?
Most people in the US doing two or more jobs are not doing it for extra money, they are doing so for sheer survival.
Poor US. Glad I'm in eastern europe.
Sadly, the titans of industry have become very focused on short time horizons.
Giving employees reasonable working hours, reasonable working conditions, and reasonable pay for the cost of living is trivially the right move if your ambition is to build a lasting monument of human accomplishment and a lasting legacy of human kinship and solidarity.
Giving employees reasonable working hours, reasonable working conditions, and reasonable pay for the cost of living is trivially the right move if your ambition is to build a lasting monument of human accomplishment and a lasting legacy of human kinship and solidarity.
Well, at one time something like 20% of the deaths in Pittsburgh were happening in Carnegie's steel mills according to the Economist [0]. So it's nothing new, unfortunately. It seems to almost be a pre-condition for getting really really rich.
[0] https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2003/01/30/pittsbur...
[0] https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2003/01/30/pittsbur...
Hey, do you want to become the next In-N-Out Burger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger#Culture) or the next McDonald's? If you want to really reach for the stars (like Bezos is currently trying with Bue Origin), you can't let such trivialities like humane working conditions get in the way...
</sarcasm>
</sarcasm>
Have you ever worked in a warehouse?
The last thing I wanted at 18 was not being able to earn 50 to 100% more an hour.
Also what your proposing is what the company did to everyone who didn’t work overtime but instead focused on working more than part time hours, so they would qualify for full time hours and thus benefits.
Work 2 months at 40 hrs per week? Great, have a month with no hours. Voila, now after 3 months your average hours per week is part time.
Yeah this was a union shop too, so don’t want to hear any nonsense from anyone about how great things would be if a union was skimming an additional 10% off the workers pay.
I wish people who weren’t doing the work would fuck right off with interfering with other peoples working relationships. Unions, mgmt, govt, workers comp, it’s all fucked and skims massively off people doing the work and towards the lifers.
Sorry if this comes off as a personal attack, but it brings me back to that life and the struggles everyone is going through. You feel fucked from every direction at a warehouse.
The last thing I wanted at 18 was not being able to earn 50 to 100% more an hour.
Also what your proposing is what the company did to everyone who didn’t work overtime but instead focused on working more than part time hours, so they would qualify for full time hours and thus benefits.
Work 2 months at 40 hrs per week? Great, have a month with no hours. Voila, now after 3 months your average hours per week is part time.
Yeah this was a union shop too, so don’t want to hear any nonsense from anyone about how great things would be if a union was skimming an additional 10% off the workers pay.
I wish people who weren’t doing the work would fuck right off with interfering with other peoples working relationships. Unions, mgmt, govt, workers comp, it’s all fucked and skims massively off people doing the work and towards the lifers.
Sorry if this comes off as a personal attack, but it brings me back to that life and the struggles everyone is going through. You feel fucked from every direction at a warehouse.
>they would qualify for full time hours and thus benefits.
This is not how stuff works in Poland. There's no difference between full-time and part-time benefits, instead, there's a difference between employment contract (UoP) contracting (UZ, UoD) and self-employment.
This is not how stuff works in Poland. There's no difference between full-time and part-time benefits, instead, there's a difference between employment contract (UoP) contracting (UZ, UoD) and self-employment.
There are also legal limits on working time, although it's not clear to me which would apply to a warehouse worker.
https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legis...
https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legis...
Take a look at "Work involving continuity of operation" part.
Amazon warehouses have 4x10h system AFAIK.
You can legally opt out of the working time limits in most professions, except for limited few like truck drivers. I'm yet to see an employment contract that doesn't have a clause for the opt out. I work as a programmer contracted for 37.5h/week but of course there's a clause in my contract to say I agree to work more "if needed"(never had to in my 7 years of work here, but still).
Overtime on UoP is permitted, but regulated. You can't do over some limit (like 400 hours yearly); except if you're a doctor.
Interesting. Here it's company to company, you can have benefits part time, but most don't offer it as most part time jobs are low wage. (Less likely to have bennies)
Also, "benefits" mean very little at that level in Poland, since healthcare is state run - and shit, but equally shit.
Private healthcare is usually diagnostics only (also, dentistry and some "luxury" operations like LASIK).
Check your privilege. You got 50 to 100% more an hour for working overtime BECAUSE it was a union shop. Yes the union that you resent for 'skimming' was getting you a way more than 10% bump in every paycheck.
If it wasn't a union shop, then you would have been working overtime at the same hourly rate as regular hours.
This is what GP objected to - if there's no incentive for management not to demand excessive overtime, they do it all the time and burn people out. If there are overtime limits or statutory pay increases for overtime, they manage their resources properly.
If it wasn't a union shop, then you would have been working overtime at the same hourly rate as regular hours.
This is what GP objected to - if there's no incentive for management not to demand excessive overtime, they do it all the time and burn people out. If there are overtime limits or statutory pay increases for overtime, they manage their resources properly.
At least here in the US, minimum 50% pay increase is literally federal law: "Nonexempt workers must be paid overtime pay at a rate of not less than one and one-half times their regular rates of pay after 40 hours of work in a workweek" [0].
[0]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/compliance-assistance/handy...
[0]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/compliance-assistance/handy...
Well that's what the union would say. We did this. You are welcome.
His point is that they are interfering with employer/employees relationship, and skim a percentage. One could argue the unions aren't getting the best deals in the long run, and skim a percentage on top. The amount of corruption those involved get tempted to participate in is significant, hard to know what we don't know. What I observe is that more prestigious jobs get away without unions getting in the way. In tech, there is generally a distrust in political factions forming to supposedly fight for employees benefits. Perhaps well paid workers figured there is no need for fighting against well paying employers, for discrete reasons. Amazon warehouse employees? If it's so bad, leave. It's just feeding the beast to accept the now well known conditions there.
His point is that they are interfering with employer/employees relationship, and skim a percentage. One could argue the unions aren't getting the best deals in the long run, and skim a percentage on top. The amount of corruption those involved get tempted to participate in is significant, hard to know what we don't know. What I observe is that more prestigious jobs get away without unions getting in the way. In tech, there is generally a distrust in political factions forming to supposedly fight for employees benefits. Perhaps well paid workers figured there is no need for fighting against well paying employers, for discrete reasons. Amazon warehouse employees? If it's so bad, leave. It's just feeding the beast to accept the now well known conditions there.
> Amazon warehouse employees? If it's so bad, leave. It's just feeding the beast to accept the now well known conditions there.
Unfortunately, the current economic system comes with an air-tight protection from such dangerous ideas: if you don't work, you can't live. So, unless there is some place that deigns to offer better conditions than Amazon warehouses, your choices are to work in these conditions or just die.
> What I observe is that more prestigious jobs get away without unions getting in the way. In tech, there is generally a distrust in political factions forming to supposedly fight for employees benefits.
This happens more in newer industries, where unions are more actively discouraged from the get go. Older prestigious professions do tend to have unions, at least in my country. Dctors have unions. Actors and screen writers have unions. Magistrates (at least those working for the state - prosecutors, judges, public defenders) have unions. I think civil engineering is not unionized, but that is more of an exception.
Even more, some areas in tech are some of the most disfunctional working environments around, and unionization is becoming a hot topic. Look at the recent Activision Blizzard or Ubisoft or Riot Games scandals.
Unfortunately, the current economic system comes with an air-tight protection from such dangerous ideas: if you don't work, you can't live. So, unless there is some place that deigns to offer better conditions than Amazon warehouses, your choices are to work in these conditions or just die.
> What I observe is that more prestigious jobs get away without unions getting in the way. In tech, there is generally a distrust in political factions forming to supposedly fight for employees benefits.
This happens more in newer industries, where unions are more actively discouraged from the get go. Older prestigious professions do tend to have unions, at least in my country. Dctors have unions. Actors and screen writers have unions. Magistrates (at least those working for the state - prosecutors, judges, public defenders) have unions. I think civil engineering is not unionized, but that is more of an exception.
Even more, some areas in tech are some of the most disfunctional working environments around, and unionization is becoming a hot topic. Look at the recent Activision Blizzard or Ubisoft or Riot Games scandals.
Unions are for sure not the silver bullet that will solve all problems, but just look at the different working conditions across countries and you will see that generally speaking, unions do lead to better working conditions and overall well-being of the employees. After all, that's literally their purpose and why they exist in the first place.
> I wish people who weren’t doing the work would fuck right off with interfering with other peoples working relationships. [..] You feel fucked from every direction at a warehouse.
It's precisely the POINT to interfere, because they cannot fend for themselves. It is literally the reason why unions were invented and why governments of pretty much all advanced nations choose to regulate work: There will always be those who have no choice but to accept the work that is given to them, and unless someone fends for them, they will be exploited.
Try to keep your own emotions out of it, and look at the raw numbers & statistics across countries. The patterns are evidently clear.
> I wish people who weren’t doing the work would fuck right off with interfering with other peoples working relationships. [..] You feel fucked from every direction at a warehouse.
It's precisely the POINT to interfere, because they cannot fend for themselves. It is literally the reason why unions were invented and why governments of pretty much all advanced nations choose to regulate work: There will always be those who have no choice but to accept the work that is given to them, and unless someone fends for them, they will be exploited.
Try to keep your own emotions out of it, and look at the raw numbers & statistics across countries. The patterns are evidently clear.
I think big corporations like Amazon should be more tightly regulated. They could easily afford cutting hours by 50% and quadrupling the pay at the same time, so workers wouldn't have to do overtime, but this is a exploitative and greed driven business. They also don't pay right amount of tax and because of that all workers are taxed more to make up for it.
Quick estimate: amazon retail had about about 8 billion in operating income for the six months ending in just [0] so estimate 16 billion a year. They also had 1,335,000 employees [0]. At least for the US, their starting pay is $18 an hour [1]. 18 * 40 * 48 is $34,560. If we assume 1 million of those are front line workers, just doubling their pay would increase their costs by 34 billion dollars putting them in the red by 18 billion dollars a year. Obviously pay varies by location so not a perfect estimate.
[0]: https://ir.aboutamazon.com/news-release/news-release-details...
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star....
> threads
[0]: https://ir.aboutamazon.com/news-release/news-release-details...
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star....
> threads
> in operating income
> so estimate 16 billion a year.
Amazon is in control of that number. They could easily quadruple that if they pulled money out of avoidance schemes and cut fake costs.
Amazon is in control of that number. They could easily quadruple that if they pulled money out of avoidance schemes and cut fake costs.
What? No they cannot. This is the document they report to investors, not the IRS, so it is global across all countries and subsidiaries. And their incentive is to report maximum profits to investors. What avoidance schemes and fake costs are you even thinking of?
> They could easily afford cutting hours by 50% and quadrupling the pay at the same time
Source? Retail business profit margins are 2% to 3%, with labor being the biggest cost.
Without a law requiring all retail businesses to do the same, Amazon retail prices would become wildly uncompetitive to other large retailers.
Source? Retail business profit margins are 2% to 3%, with labor being the biggest cost.
Without a law requiring all retail businesses to do the same, Amazon retail prices would become wildly uncompetitive to other large retailers.
I wish Amazon would disappear overnight.
Just like with ousting dictators, that would leave a power vacuum which will be filled ASAP by an equally evil corporation, since Amazon proved what one can get away with.
The solution is to legislate companies with despicable practices out of business, but that ship has sailed some time in the '70s -'80s when globalization and unscrupulous capitalism kicked into fifth gear.
The solution is to legislate companies with despicable practices out of business, but that ship has sailed some time in the '70s -'80s when globalization and unscrupulous capitalism kicked into fifth gear.
Of course, and "obliterating" Amazon would still leave all the other corporations who behave similarly and the broken system they lay their foundation upon intact.
Still, it is fine to me to express frustration using a childish dream for revenge every once in a while.
Still, it is fine to me to express frustration using a childish dream for revenge every once in a while.
For context, Amazon employs 950,000 people in the US and 1.3 million globally.
So in these situations, is the leader responsible for the death of the employee? What kind of consequences are there for this type of behavior?
The world has chosen to increasingly kneel to Billionaire CEO's who think pursuit of profit through over-working people is completely fine & dandy. This death can be directly attributed to Bezos who I believe is a well-adjusted sociopath.
It does seem that to “get ahead” in this world it helps to have sociopathic tendencies.
This is terrible.
Died at work or died out of work?
It's so sad that only few hundreds kilometers west in Germany relatively interesting and high paid tech jobs at Amazon are available, and over here they advertise in city centers their warehouse jobs... happy, fulfilling, rewarding, young! Become a warehouse-kapo so consumers in Germany can receive their packages!
I'm from Poland and few years ago as a student I was working one night serving dinners in Wroclaw Amazon warehouse as a side job. Besides the fact that some people in night shifts were clearly under the influence and most were either really old, or really young, the whole thing looks like a prison. Motivational texts on the walls, bland colors, everyone was sad and depressed, metal detectors and security checks everywhere. I genuinely felt bad for people working there. There were a lot of stories that they count your steps to force you to work more but I don't know how much of these were true. Generally Amazon(warehouse) here attracts really the people who have nowhere else to go and is considered 'last resort' kind of job around here.
While I agree with most of your points, security checks are standard. Employee theft is a big issue in almost any warehouse, so searching employees after shifts is nothing unusual and doesn't tend to be a big hassle for most.
I get the vibe that you think Amazon treats Germany better. Amazon has warehouses in basically every country and treats their warehouse employees like crap in every country. Amazon as far as I know treats all of their employees like crap.
My point is rather that in Germany at least one can work on their tech stuff and in warehouses they experienced solid pushback by German unions. Meanwhile rich western investor in Poland? For a plastic bag of cash on the table, they can do literally anything and receive taxbreaks.
> My point is rather that in Germany at least one can work on their tech stuff
I'd bet Amazon tech workers in Gdańsk and Warsaw have more purchasing power than their German counterparts
I'd bet Amazon tech workers in Gdańsk and Warsaw have more purchasing power than their German counterparts
iPhones and BMWs are more expensive in Poland than in Germany, potato is cheaper though...
Is rent cheaper?
There is no culture of renting. After fall of communism people went into full capitalism mode but don't have the sophistication to invest into something more complicated than a mortgage and real estate. One gets 20-30 sqm studio for 450-600 eur/month. Basically hotel room with kitchen annex. I think Warsaw took over Berlin already.
Kinda. Germany is not famous for high salaries in tech.
This wouldnt apply for Switzerland, UK, Netherlands etc.
Amazon still has to abide by the laws and regulations of countries they work in. So I wouldn't be surprised if workers in Germany are treated a lot better than they are in countries with weaker laws (not talking about Poland here, I don't know how they compare).
Not sure if they just slip by while not being in the spot light. Amazon repeatedly failed to follow COVID regulations in France, refused to reduce operations to a manageable point and instead opted to shut the affected warehouses down completely.
You can work for Amazon/AWS and make more (relative to prices in Poland) then in Germany...
Eastern Europeans are exploited at every turn. They put them into rat infested caravans that they have to pay a few hundred euro per week for.
But that's how Poland will pull itself up by the bootstraps and become rich. It is a stage every successful country went through.
But that's how Poland will pull itself up by the bootstraps and become rich. It is a stage every successful country went through.
Even if that was true, though, does that make it okay? Does that reduce the need to fight against it?
You do know, that there are 24 fulfillment centers in Germany alone and each one of them needs the same type of work, that is being done in each of 7 centers in Poland? Because your comment suggests that the hard work is being done only in Poland.
Working standards and labor laws are different in those countries,e.g. in Germany unions are pretty strong and warehouse workers are better protected (only 2 shifts are allowed), whereas in Poland those sweatshops run 24/7. Hourly pay for this job in PL is equal to €5.3/$6.2/£4.5.
Cheap workforce is the sole reason of Amazon's presence in PL (until very recent, they didn't even have a local domain) and the backbone of their logistics for Western Europe.
Cheap workforce is the sole reason of Amazon's presence in PL (until very recent, they didn't even have a local domain) and the backbone of their logistics for Western Europe.
> warehouse workers are better protected (only 2 shifts are allowed), whereas in Poland those sweatshops run 24/7
I don't understand how mandating inefficiency is protecting workers?
I don't understand how mandating inefficiency is protecting workers?
Because human beings have limits beyond which they break, even when they are desperate for money.
Low-regulation countries (or corrupt countries, which is equivalent for the corrupters) ignore those limits and achieve efficiency for the rich at the expense of the bodies of the poor.
Low-regulation countries (or corrupt countries, which is equivalent for the corrupters) ignore those limits and achieve efficiency for the rich at the expense of the bodies of the poor.
That's why overtime is paid at a higher rate.
Money can't fix this. Many young people think themselves indestructible and roll the dice (without even realizing) by ruining their health for money. This practice must simply be made illegal, except for the most dire of needs (e.g. a surgeon in the middle of an operation can't just clock out).
Just like you can't legally sell yourself into slavery or sell your organs, you shouldn't be allowed to sell your health away for a bigger buck like this; and businesses that rely on such practices for their business model should simply be closed down.
Just like you can't legally sell yourself into slavery or sell your organs, you shouldn't be allowed to sell your health away for a bigger buck like this; and businesses that rely on such practices for their business model should simply be closed down.
Well, german amazon has their german warehouse employees for that. They are basically treated the same as in any other warehouse.
A lot of German amazon packages (esp warehousedeals but not exclusively) will be shipped from Poland though. It's simply cheaper for Amazon given the huge wage difference and the relatively short distance (<10h by truck from Western Poland to pretty much all of Germany).
They have tech jobs in Poland too.
> Become a warehouse-kapo so consumers in Germany can receive their packages!
Some casual holocaust trivialization on a Wednesday.
Some casual holocaust trivialization on a Wednesday.
Rather culturally and historically aware dark joke (hint - American corporation "serving" Germans on Polish soil and funelling the real profits through some obscure arrangements). Give us something better this time please, we deserve it.
I feel like you're missing something in your historical awareness. Hint: it has something to do with the kapo comment and the comparison of places like Treblinka and Sobibor to an Amazon warehouse.
They're both in the EU which has freedom of movement. It should be quite easy to go over the border and get employed there.
Which really vacuum cleans all lands easy of Germany but that's another point.
Which really vacuum cleans all lands easy of Germany but that's another point.
Sounds bad, but imagine the warehouse manager would've helped the guy and gotten COVID-19! Can't risk that!
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> Sounds bad, but imagine the warehouse manager would've helped the guy and gotten COVID-19!
Isn't Amazon testing warehouse employees for COVID-19 whenever they enter their premises?
Nevertheless, unless Amazon treats their employees like utter crap, showing any symptom of COVID-19 would be grounds to just let them go on sick leave no questions asked. Instead, the newspiece states that the manager of the deceased was making him run laps.
Isn't Amazon testing warehouse employees for COVID-19 whenever they enter their premises?
Nevertheless, unless Amazon treats their employees like utter crap, showing any symptom of COVID-19 would be grounds to just let them go on sick leave no questions asked. Instead, the newspiece states that the manager of the deceased was making him run laps.
Sure, but with the new Delta Plus® variant (+ false-negative tests + asymptomatic transmission) it's better to play it safe & keep your distance from other human resources.
> Sure, but with the new Delta Plus® (...)
Nonsense. All it takes is checking temperature or self-reporting symptoms.
Nonsense. All it takes is checking temperature or self-reporting symptoms.
Ginden(10)
As long as no one sees the underclass of the NWO, it doesn't matter right ?
Like how people can care for "animal rights" and "human rights" while still eating meat and supporting the destruction of "heathens" (ideological or otherwise).
Like how people can care for "animal rights" and "human rights" while still eating meat and supporting the destruction of "heathens" (ideological or otherwise).
[deleted]
- He was a water spider in an Amazon warehouse.
- On 5 Sep, 2021 he asked his team lead to assign extra help because he and his colleagues couldn't keep up with the amount of work. An argument between them ensued but some help was assigned at the end of the day.
- In the morning of 6 Sep, 2021 he felt stabbing in his chest and had difficulties breathing. He asked the team lead to call a medic (there were medical care worked employed by Amazon) but he refused and offered to walk him to the medic instead.
- He passed out on his way to the medic and never regained consciousness.
- An investigation was opened on 7 Sep, 2021.