Ask HN: Burnout at 20, How to Recover?
25 comments
First, you need a therapist. It will help you handle your anxiety.
Second, quit your job. Quit your job, take your money and go to do what people at 20 do, whatever they do these days (it almost 20 years now since my 20).
Now, you need to understand that it is not your fault. 99% of people at 20 are not mature enough to handle all pressure it comes with leading a team of 3 (and every thing that came before that).
In the past, people took years to be responsible for so much thing at work. Companies used to prepare talented people like you. Today, they just use you like a disposable part until you break. You broke. Again, it is not your fault, it's their fault.
Slowdown your life. Live your life for you, not for your company. Spend time with your family, with your friends. Meet new people, new places. Do other things you like and learn to like new things.
Then, come back here to tell us how you are doing.
Second, quit your job. Quit your job, take your money and go to do what people at 20 do, whatever they do these days (it almost 20 years now since my 20).
Now, you need to understand that it is not your fault. 99% of people at 20 are not mature enough to handle all pressure it comes with leading a team of 3 (and every thing that came before that).
In the past, people took years to be responsible for so much thing at work. Companies used to prepare talented people like you. Today, they just use you like a disposable part until you break. You broke. Again, it is not your fault, it's their fault.
Slowdown your life. Live your life for you, not for your company. Spend time with your family, with your friends. Meet new people, new places. Do other things you like and learn to like new things.
Then, come back here to tell us how you are doing.
They don't have to quit. They could ask for a leave of absence or reduced workload in the form of temporary consulting. I would ask about those options before submitting a letter of resignation. It may turn out that OP just needs a break, and a few months of travelling the world or whatever is enough to set them on a path to success.
This is true! A leave of absence and a break could help a lot to reset their headspace. Some companies offer a mental health leave with documentation from a psychologist and it remains confidential.
I also think OP could use some change at work so that they're not coming back to the same intense workload or routine that is boring them. Maybe the things they used to be excited about aren't the same anywhere and changing up responsibilities or projects might help.
I also think OP could use some change at work so that they're not coming back to the same intense workload or routine that is boring them. Maybe the things they used to be excited about aren't the same anywhere and changing up responsibilities or projects might help.
> They could ask for a leave of absence or reduced workload in the form of temporary consulting.
These are good options. I didn't think about them.
These are good options. I didn't think about them.
Well it’s ok to not like coding.
We all like to think we’re doing some amazing rocket science. Like we’re able to mold dreams into reality with code and it’s so engaging we ought to want to do it every waking hour.
But TBH much of the time it’s just work. It’s hard work, with deadlines, legacy code maintenance, bikeshedding, customers, and thankless tasks. It’s not molding “Dreams into reality” most of the time.
I hate it sometimes. I give myself the freedom to hate it. To have it not be my passion. I let my natural interests guide me to and from it. So far I’ve stuck with it through the years, enjoyed it much of the time, but I would have burned out if I didn’t pace myself to my interest level rather than external pressures.
We all like to think we’re doing some amazing rocket science. Like we’re able to mold dreams into reality with code and it’s so engaging we ought to want to do it every waking hour.
But TBH much of the time it’s just work. It’s hard work, with deadlines, legacy code maintenance, bikeshedding, customers, and thankless tasks. It’s not molding “Dreams into reality” most of the time.
I hate it sometimes. I give myself the freedom to hate it. To have it not be my passion. I let my natural interests guide me to and from it. So far I’ve stuck with it through the years, enjoyed it much of the time, but I would have burned out if I didn’t pace myself to my interest level rather than external pressures.
Keep in mind you're earning a six figure salary doing over double what is expected at a "normal" 40h/week job. If you consider it as an hourly rate, is it worth sacrificing your health over?
Not a rhetorical question, btw.
Not a rhetorical question, btw.
Thank you for taking your time and writing this.
> Keep in mind you're earning a six figure salary doing over double what is expected at a "normal" 40h/week job. If you consider it as an hourly rate, is it worth sacrificing your health over?
Yeah, I'm well aware of that I'm putting more than 40h a week for my job. In 20/30 hours I can finish my tasks and attend meetings. On the other 50 hours most of the time I'm doing things that is not part of the sprint/my tasks in work, I'm doing them as a hobby, I enjoy coding. I agree that it is not worth sacrificing my health for it, that is why I'm looking for a way out in this situation.
> Not a rhetorical question, btw.
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. English is my second language, even though I'm comfortable with discussing technical topics, having a conversation in colloquial English, I'm not very comfortable with turning my anxiety into a story.
> Keep in mind you're earning a six figure salary doing over double what is expected at a "normal" 40h/week job. If you consider it as an hourly rate, is it worth sacrificing your health over?
Yeah, I'm well aware of that I'm putting more than 40h a week for my job. In 20/30 hours I can finish my tasks and attend meetings. On the other 50 hours most of the time I'm doing things that is not part of the sprint/my tasks in work, I'm doing them as a hobby, I enjoy coding. I agree that it is not worth sacrificing my health for it, that is why I'm looking for a way out in this situation.
> Not a rhetorical question, btw.
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. English is my second language, even though I'm comfortable with discussing technical topics, having a conversation in colloquial English, I'm not very comfortable with turning my anxiety into a story.
You can't work 2/3 of the hours of the day for more than short bursts. Just back it off and limit yourself to max 7 hours of work each day, and avoid anything code related for at least one day each week. See how you feel after a couple weeks of that. You're young and you can always dive back in, just try backing off some for some weeks and see how you feel.
Recommend getting a good therapist and setting boundaries with your work. It will help you get off the hedonic treadmill and manage your anxiety.
It sounds like both your work and hobby involve pretty intense coding. If you are coding for 16-18 hours a day, that doesn't leave enough time for sleep, exercise, and socializing. I've found I need a regular amount of all three of those (and enough high-quality food) in order to have my mind working well for long periods of time. Even if you really love coding, these things ebb and flow, so it's okay for your job to just be a job instead of this all-consuming thing. You'll have to more aggressively prioritize which tasks you work on instead of trying to do everything, but that's an important part of maturing as a programmer and a leader. Maybe take some time doing work only in a fixed time period of the day and spend the rest of the time on some hobbies, ideally ones that are physical, outside, or with other people. (I understand that these are harder to find right now than they were a few years ago).
While having a more restorative life outside your job will help, I also agree that a therapist is a good idea to help with your anxiety and to help while navigating the transition from coding being your entire life to it being part of your life (at least for now).
While having a more restorative life outside your job will help, I also agree that a therapist is a good idea to help with your anxiety and to help while navigating the transition from coding being your entire life to it being part of your life (at least for now).
Take a substantial vacation, towards the end after your mind clears it'll be easier to decide the best course of action.
My recommendation:
Take some time off and really unplug.
Invest in a hobby/activity outside of work that makes you happy. For me it's lifting weights. I wasn't always that way - a doctor recommended that I do that in my mid-20s when I was going through serious burnout, bad diet, poor sleep and stress. It helped me having that outside outlet.
Take some time off and really unplug.
Invest in a hobby/activity outside of work that makes you happy. For me it's lifting weights. I wasn't always that way - a doctor recommended that I do that in my mid-20s when I was going through serious burnout, bad diet, poor sleep and stress. It helped me having that outside outlet.
Do you still enjoy writing software? Maybe you just don’t like your new responsibilities?
Maybe go enjoy our life while you can.
>16-18 hours a day
Can I ask you how, and why, you do this? I'm genuinely curious as even back when I was your age I would be fatigued after maybe half of that time.
As others have said, this exaggerated workload obviously contributes to your situation.
Can I ask you how, and why, you do this? I'm genuinely curious as even back when I was your age I would be fatigued after maybe half of that time.
As others have said, this exaggerated workload obviously contributes to your situation.
> Can I ask you how, and why, you do this? I'm genuinely curious as even back when I was your age I would be fatigued after maybe half of that time.
Sure thing. I'm a dropout, I have plenty of time. I'm not sleeping much, most days 4 hours of sleeping is enough for me. I don't know the exact reason why, how I feel deep inside, I just enjoy what I do and I never felt fatigued till now.
Sure thing. I'm a dropout, I have plenty of time. I'm not sleeping much, most days 4 hours of sleeping is enough for me. I don't know the exact reason why, how I feel deep inside, I just enjoy what I do and I never felt fatigued till now.
[deleted]
Went through something similar recently. Start by teaching yourself how to sleep.
The root of your problems is something else though. I like science, so this helped me more than anything else: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqtYZJSGeEY.
Everyone will suggest professional help, and you should seek it if you're comfortable, but the Internet has everything you need at this point. I'm sure your adventures have trained you in the Art of Googling.
The root of your problems is something else though. I like science, so this helped me more than anything else: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqtYZJSGeEY.
Everyone will suggest professional help, and you should seek it if you're comfortable, but the Internet has everything you need at this point. I'm sure your adventures have trained you in the Art of Googling.
You’re 20 years old.
Make that full time work part time and go do something you enjoy.
You don’t owe anyone anything so badly that it costs your health. That includes your future self.
Make that full time work part time and go do something you enjoy.
You don’t owe anyone anything so badly that it costs your health. That includes your future self.
Find something new to do at that company or get a new job.
Probably talk to therapist.
imo there are often several components to burn out...
- going at it too hard, for too long - letting your health and body deteriorate - having your goals change without noticing - bureaucracy taking too much % of your time - creativity going out of the work - too much stress for too long
My past experience with burn out is that it is a health issue first and foremost. You can't run your brain & energy systems flat out forever. Stuff starts to break down. Effect gets worse when you get older. When you are young, you can probably get away with it for a lot longer.
The stress you putting on yourself to "deliver results for others" means you walk around filled with anxiety and tension at all times.
In programming roles with regular stand-ups and tickets, the feeling of being monitored constantly for productivity (by management and peers) means you are carrying anxiety 24/7. In my opinion, some of the "well intentioned" group productivity methods such as regular meetings to check on deliverables tend to escalate stress levels.
Starts to feel like micro-management.
This rapidly can turn into feeling like "weekly / daily public humiliation" exercises if you are not able to maintain the cadence of results. The anxiety you might be feeling is actually a looming sense of dread of being micromanaged to deliverables in a public setting.
IF your projects have no program management, rational control of deliverables...pretty soon you just feel bad all the time. More anxiety, less motivation, more burn out. The daily stand-ups devolve into: "Lets see how much you have failed everyone today." That is a punishment, not a reward.
Once your work becomes a regular habitual exercise in punishment, then of course you are going to back off and not want to do it anymore. It is one of the same reasons why it is so important to keep a healthy mental frame around exercise and diet (reward, not punishment). Humans are animals. Animals like rewards and hate / avoid punishments.
So suspect your job has been turned into ritual humiliation / punishment and that is the root cause. Other factors might be at play, but that is my guess. Need to find a way to restructure work so that it is rewarding and not flagellating. That might mean systematically dropping some deliverables, pushing things out and renegotiating deliverables.
Having been a developer who also got stuck with project management - nothing is more stressful than having to both do the work and do the "client facing / management facing" negotiation.
You may find you don't want to be management and would prefer to be a pure specialist.
Smartest guy I ever met once told me: "The first thing I do when taking a new job is tell them I never want to be promoted. If you want to be promoted, they can make you do things." :)
- going at it too hard, for too long - letting your health and body deteriorate - having your goals change without noticing - bureaucracy taking too much % of your time - creativity going out of the work - too much stress for too long
My past experience with burn out is that it is a health issue first and foremost. You can't run your brain & energy systems flat out forever. Stuff starts to break down. Effect gets worse when you get older. When you are young, you can probably get away with it for a lot longer.
The stress you putting on yourself to "deliver results for others" means you walk around filled with anxiety and tension at all times.
In programming roles with regular stand-ups and tickets, the feeling of being monitored constantly for productivity (by management and peers) means you are carrying anxiety 24/7. In my opinion, some of the "well intentioned" group productivity methods such as regular meetings to check on deliverables tend to escalate stress levels.
Starts to feel like micro-management.
This rapidly can turn into feeling like "weekly / daily public humiliation" exercises if you are not able to maintain the cadence of results. The anxiety you might be feeling is actually a looming sense of dread of being micromanaged to deliverables in a public setting.
IF your projects have no program management, rational control of deliverables...pretty soon you just feel bad all the time. More anxiety, less motivation, more burn out. The daily stand-ups devolve into: "Lets see how much you have failed everyone today." That is a punishment, not a reward.
Once your work becomes a regular habitual exercise in punishment, then of course you are going to back off and not want to do it anymore. It is one of the same reasons why it is so important to keep a healthy mental frame around exercise and diet (reward, not punishment). Humans are animals. Animals like rewards and hate / avoid punishments.
So suspect your job has been turned into ritual humiliation / punishment and that is the root cause. Other factors might be at play, but that is my guess. Need to find a way to restructure work so that it is rewarding and not flagellating. That might mean systematically dropping some deliverables, pushing things out and renegotiating deliverables.
Having been a developer who also got stuck with project management - nothing is more stressful than having to both do the work and do the "client facing / management facing" negotiation.
You may find you don't want to be management and would prefer to be a pure specialist.
Smartest guy I ever met once told me: "The first thing I do when taking a new job is tell them I never want to be promoted. If you want to be promoted, they can make you do things." :)
Thank you for explaining this, it perfectly describes the stress I’m experiencing and why.
How long have you been smoking pot? It took me around 6 months of no usage to get to a point where the fear and anxiety of being at and doing work went away.
I felt great if I didn’t have to work on anything with pressure but smoking a lot coupled with a stressful job is a match made in hell.
I felt great if I didn’t have to work on anything with pressure but smoking a lot coupled with a stressful job is a match made in hell.
> How long have you been smoking pot?
I've been a smoker since 16. I was doing it only at parties and holidays. But lately I've become a daily smoker.
I'm waiting for my meetings to end every day to smoke some and chill out without worrying about the things happening around me.
> It took me around 6 months of no usage to get to a point where the fear and anxiety of being at and doing work went away.
That's right, I know it messes the hormones up so badly. I'm gonna try quitting it for a month to see how it goes.
I've been a smoker since 16. I was doing it only at parties and holidays. But lately I've become a daily smoker.
I'm waiting for my meetings to end every day to smoke some and chill out without worrying about the things happening around me.
> It took me around 6 months of no usage to get to a point where the fear and anxiety of being at and doing work went away.
That's right, I know it messes the hormones up so badly. I'm gonna try quitting it for a month to see how it goes.
I started working as a Software Engineer when I was 18 and been doing that in the last 2.5 years, been in two different start-ups and in my current $CURRENT_DAY_JOB started earning 6 figure salary at 19.
When i first joined my $CURRENT_DAY_JOB, it was fun, challenging and i was totally enjoying every moment of it, putting nearly 16-18 hours a day, trying to learn the technologies my team uses by doing side projects after work, optimizing and rewriting the current components of codebase by fancy technologies like eBPF-Rust just for fun and they went production too, everything was so satisfying for me at that moment! But lately the tasks started to felt boring, I have no motivation to work on tasks, do code-reviews, read posts I see on HN, attending paper-reading groups, work on my open source projects(Total 4K stars on several projects). When I see an email from my side-project I want to do something about it but I have no motivation to do it and it started giving me creeps.
I don't think it is related to my $CURRENT_DAY_JOB because I got promoted and started leading a team of 3 people, they appreciate what I do and I feel respected here. I have responsibility for my team, my co-workers and I feel like I'm failing them.
I clearly don't know what should I do, I started smoking Indica when I feel so stressed and it helps to fight with my anxiety, but something just doesn't feels right for me and it creeps me out, what should I do?