Venting doesn’t work(slate.com)
slate.com
Venting doesn’t work
https://slate.com/technology/2022/03/venting-makes-you-feel-worse-psychology-research.html
192 comments
Yeah, I know it's anecdotal... but when I've had issues with people that "stuck", and didn't go away on their own, I've had a lot of success writing those people a letter. It forces me to present all the information factually, how I feel about it, why I feel that way, etc. which helps elucidate the charitable and less-charitable interpretations of what happened. In writing, I have to reread and edit what I wrote a dozen times at least to make it nice and coherent. I also have a rule, that I can't send out such letters until the next day after writing the letter. Every time I've done that, I didn't need to send the letter after I wrote it. The anger was gone. Sometimes it persisted for weeks leading up to me writing the letter.
I would absolutely describe that as "venting". I just wouldn't describe it as super aggressive or hostile, even though sometimes I think the letters were pretty harsh.
I would absolutely describe that as "venting". I just wouldn't describe it as super aggressive or hostile, even though sometimes I think the letters were pretty harsh.
Do the situations ever get resolved if you don’t send the letters, or do you use the letters as a basis for having a more mature conversation after?
I sometimes do the same thing, and after I get my ideas out/vented, I end up rewriting the letter with gained empathy/understanding, and then use that as an outline for a conversation (if not reading the letter verbatim for especially difficult subjects) with the person. Otherwise, even if I feel a little better, nothing actually was resolved.
I sometimes do the same thing, and after I get my ideas out/vented, I end up rewriting the letter with gained empathy/understanding, and then use that as an outline for a conversation (if not reading the letter verbatim for especially difficult subjects) with the person. Otherwise, even if I feel a little better, nothing actually was resolved.
I can't speak for everyone, but as a person with unmedicated ADHD and chronic fatigue, I feel pretty hostile to sentiments like this.
In my experience, people who engage in #2 aren't - as you seem to be implying - people who are immature and lazy.
A lot of the time they're people who struggle with the executive function necessary to actually change their life, who feel helpless and just want validation after having been made to feel insane by the #1 crowd - crowd who gives them obvious (non)solutions like "eat healthier", and "just exercise more!", and shits on them if they claim it doesn't work for them or can't do it.
People love to rationalize why and how those people are motivated to not solve their issues instead of acknowledging that, just maybe, they really can't do better, really need help, and just gravitate towards the only crowd that won't treat them like moral failures for it.
I have been disabled by overwhelmingly debilitating fatigue for a third of my life, and human tendency to treat every attempt to describe my struggles as excuses to debunk so I finally "stop feeling sorry for myself" has been dehumanizing. The victimization isn't made up. People who REALLY struggle are systematically gaslit and abused by the overwhelming majority of people. The moment people catch wind of your inability to take care of yourself, they treat you as less than human and make up one reason after another to blame you for your struggle and exclude you from deserving empathy.
Rant over.
In my experience, people who engage in #2 aren't - as you seem to be implying - people who are immature and lazy.
A lot of the time they're people who struggle with the executive function necessary to actually change their life, who feel helpless and just want validation after having been made to feel insane by the #1 crowd - crowd who gives them obvious (non)solutions like "eat healthier", and "just exercise more!", and shits on them if they claim it doesn't work for them or can't do it.
People love to rationalize why and how those people are motivated to not solve their issues instead of acknowledging that, just maybe, they really can't do better, really need help, and just gravitate towards the only crowd that won't treat them like moral failures for it.
I have been disabled by overwhelmingly debilitating fatigue for a third of my life, and human tendency to treat every attempt to describe my struggles as excuses to debunk so I finally "stop feeling sorry for myself" has been dehumanizing. The victimization isn't made up. People who REALLY struggle are systematically gaslit and abused by the overwhelming majority of people. The moment people catch wind of your inability to take care of yourself, they treat you as less than human and make up one reason after another to blame you for your struggle and exclude you from deserving empathy.
Rant over.
I do not want to diminish the importance of your perspective in any way, only to add that some in the #1 camp are teetering on the brink of "able to take care of self" and not withholding help to be cruel, but because they think helping might pull them over the cliff, too.
Wellness has big steps sometimes, and if you tumble down a step it may take a long time to get back up, and your ability to help yourself, and anyone else, will be diminished.
Wellness has big steps sometimes, and if you tumble down a step it may take a long time to get back up, and your ability to help yourself, and anyone else, will be diminished.
I know. I do not blame people. At least not for that.
What I blame people for is shaming, infantilizing, and treating people who struggle like nutjobs worthy only of ostracization for "refusing to accept help".
Acting "whiny" is almost universally seen as extremely repulsive, and nobody would act this way if they weren't genuinely helpless - whether perpetually or only in the moment.
What I blame people for is shaming, infantilizing, and treating people who struggle like nutjobs worthy only of ostracization for "refusing to accept help".
Acting "whiny" is almost universally seen as extremely repulsive, and nobody would act this way if they weren't genuinely helpless - whether perpetually or only in the moment.
> nobody would act this way if they weren't genuinely helpless
That seems like too much of a generalisation. The issues you describe are real and that is not diminished by the fact that some people operate differently from what you imagine makes sense.
That seems like too much of a generalisation. The issues you describe are real and that is not diminished by the fact that some people operate differently from what you imagine makes sense.
[flagged]
Personal attacks will get you banned here. So will taking HN threads into hellish flamewar and then fueling it further. You can make your substantive points without doing either of those things.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. We've had to ask you about this kind of thing more than once before.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. We've had to ask you about this kind of thing more than once before.
Llamamoe(1)
I can see where you are coming from. At my work for instance, we will take on those with good people skills and the intelligence to learn the technical skills they are missing. We are reluctant to do it the other way round. We avoid those who have the technical skills but not the people skills because common wisdom and experience indicates it is much harder to teach the people skills… I would add that we are not equipped to help them get up the curve. The thought process is that once you teach someone able a technical skill, it generally sticks. Soft skills tend to be harder to teach and problems recurring in nature…this results in time sinks. This might be perceived as unfair but it is a reflection of the world we live in…and generally they are practical observation. People and businesses need better tools/methods/education to help people but right now there is little incentive to do so…we, as a society, are more focused on gender and racial equality than mental health equality.
On a personal level, if I have to invest too much of my time or energy managing someone else’s emotional state on an ongoing basis…then I’m not interested in maintaining that relationship. Maybe because I was once in a toxic, draining relationship which almost destroyed me..I am maybe more alert or sensitive to these issues.
On a personal level, if I have to invest too much of my time or energy managing someone else’s emotional state on an ongoing basis…then I’m not interested in maintaining that relationship. Maybe because I was once in a toxic, draining relationship which almost destroyed me..I am maybe more alert or sensitive to these issues.
This is valid and I don't blame you. Over the years, I've experienced both sides of that coin, and nobody could be rationally expected to put up with it.
But it sure hurts to have spent a decade unable to leave my house or take basic care of myself while continuously being told I'm exaggerating, making it up, just lazy, and worse, by people who couldn't even imagine just how bad my issues are.
I don't think I will ever get over the trauma of either how helpless I was, or how people treated me.
From my perspective, "it's mental health" seems like a throwaway diagnosis meant to get a patient to go and listen to a therapist, take their pills, and fit into society a little better.
Based on my knowledge, I firmly believe that a lot of the perpetually mentally unwell people - especially ones experiencing sleep disorders, GI distress, and other chronic ailments - likely have an underlying physiological condition responsible for their predisposion to mental disorders.
But it sure hurts to have spent a decade unable to leave my house or take basic care of myself while continuously being told I'm exaggerating, making it up, just lazy, and worse, by people who couldn't even imagine just how bad my issues are.
I don't think I will ever get over the trauma of either how helpless I was, or how people treated me.
From my perspective, "it's mental health" seems like a throwaway diagnosis meant to get a patient to go and listen to a therapist, take their pills, and fit into society a little better.
Based on my knowledge, I firmly believe that a lot of the perpetually mentally unwell people - especially ones experiencing sleep disorders, GI distress, and other chronic ailments - likely have an underlying physiological condition responsible for their predisposion to mental disorders.
To echo one of the earlier posts: I’m in group 1, but only just. I have spent multiple months of my adult life barely leaving the house, unemployed, curled up in bed, in a seemingly endless cycle of anxiety and struggling to cope. I could literally feel my mind and body atrophying.
Today I’m sort-of functional in that I show up to work every day, get most of my tasks done, and pay the bills. But I have very poor executive function and I’m really scared of dropping off the deep end again. Stories like yours scare me and inspire some disgust because I see the same tendency in myself and I don’t want to go there.
I also know that practically speaking prolonged engagement/discussion with someone having such issues is unlikely to help. Nor is providing suggestions or blame. There’s not much anyone can do. The best I can offer is, if there was ever a period of your life where you were happier or more functional, can you see how to switch to that mode again? And if there’s one big thing blocking you (the fatigue, in your case), maybe there’s a one-time action you can perform, like going to a doctor, that could help.
I’m not offering this advice to you specifically but just to anyone who might feel similarly stuck.
Today I’m sort-of functional in that I show up to work every day, get most of my tasks done, and pay the bills. But I have very poor executive function and I’m really scared of dropping off the deep end again. Stories like yours scare me and inspire some disgust because I see the same tendency in myself and I don’t want to go there.
I also know that practically speaking prolonged engagement/discussion with someone having such issues is unlikely to help. Nor is providing suggestions or blame. There’s not much anyone can do. The best I can offer is, if there was ever a period of your life where you were happier or more functional, can you see how to switch to that mode again? And if there’s one big thing blocking you (the fatigue, in your case), maybe there’s a one-time action you can perform, like going to a doctor, that could help.
I’m not offering this advice to you specifically but just to anyone who might feel similarly stuck.
There were periods in my life when I coped better, but I have never been able to function in my life until I was lucky enough for a friend to just buy me a bilevel CPAP, at a point in life when I couldn't even go out and see a doctor anymore.
Even now, I can barely work 1-3 hours a few days per week, and not starve myself while waiting for a consultation with an orthognatic surgeon.
I am aware I could do better mentally, but at the end of the day, it's difficult to cope with being unable to achieve even simplest goals I set for myself, and the crippling loneliness of nobody believing that yeah, I'm really sick, really struggling, and really not managing very well.
If your EF impairments are unremitting, it's likely that you have an underlying physiological condition. Can I ask you about the status of your sleep, digestion, and presence of any chronic health complaints, however trifle(like chronic cough, waking up grumpy, or mild indigestion)?
Even now, I can barely work 1-3 hours a few days per week, and not starve myself while waiting for a consultation with an orthognatic surgeon.
I am aware I could do better mentally, but at the end of the day, it's difficult to cope with being unable to achieve even simplest goals I set for myself, and the crippling loneliness of nobody believing that yeah, I'm really sick, really struggling, and really not managing very well.
If your EF impairments are unremitting, it's likely that you have an underlying physiological condition. Can I ask you about the status of your sleep, digestion, and presence of any chronic health complaints, however trifle(like chronic cough, waking up grumpy, or mild indigestion)?
Yeah mental health is really a catch-all term and it is much more complicated than that since the body and the mind are intertwined.
On people not listening nor understanding and making remarks about making it up or being lazy, it is hard when one's feelings and thoughts are not being validated.
On people not listening nor understanding and making remarks about making it up or being lazy, it is hard when one's feelings and thoughts are not being validated.
I'll just have to do a counterrant in the hopes it can be useful, it's one word: ayurveda.
Seek it if you feel like, but basically I predicate it on the thought modern pharma is very much trying to hit above its weight class and mental health medicine is clueless, and illiterate about the body, and AHDH is in ancient terms deeply related to vata issues, the which chronic fatigue only confirms as the real cause. Modern world is a hot vayu airy mess but I'll vent no further.
Seek it if you feel like, but basically I predicate it on the thought modern pharma is very much trying to hit above its weight class and mental health medicine is clueless, and illiterate about the body, and AHDH is in ancient terms deeply related to vata issues, the which chronic fatigue only confirms as the real cause. Modern world is a hot vayu airy mess but I'll vent no further.
Mental health medicine absolutely IS clueless. The explanations of why meds work make no sense, research on side effects is neglected, mechanisms are not understood. That said, stimulants are /something/ of an exception, in that they very directly counter the deficits - if not the causes - and improve essentially all outcomes.
Have you by chance ever considered your symptoms as dissociation? As in symptom of and underlying complex trauma which possibly was retraumtized aka reactivated later?
I know exactly what is wrong with me. ADHD is not trauma, and my chronic fatigue is caused by airways so narrow that I cannot brestje if I straighten my neck. Even sleeping on a BiPAP, every single of my breaths is flow limited and I wake up(partially, not into wakefulness) because of it at least 7-15 times an hour.
Also, PTSD is the single disorder with the highest rates of underlying physiological risk factors. Even studies only screening for sleep apnea(most younger people present as UARS) find 30-70% prevalence, sleep disorders predict long term outcomes more accurately than the underlying traumatic events, and 2/3 of people do not develop PTSD or CPTSD following trauma.
Most likely, undiagnosed UARS/apnea is present in majority of people with chronic sleep issues, and together with other physiological risk factors(early insulin intolerance, severe gut dysbiosis, thyroid problems, others) makes up the bulk of psychological illness.
The reason why things look purely psychological is because the human mind revolves around spinning narratives explaining both own and other people's experiences in terms of events and decisions.
Also, PTSD is the single disorder with the highest rates of underlying physiological risk factors. Even studies only screening for sleep apnea(most younger people present as UARS) find 30-70% prevalence, sleep disorders predict long term outcomes more accurately than the underlying traumatic events, and 2/3 of people do not develop PTSD or CPTSD following trauma.
Most likely, undiagnosed UARS/apnea is present in majority of people with chronic sleep issues, and together with other physiological risk factors(early insulin intolerance, severe gut dysbiosis, thyroid problems, others) makes up the bulk of psychological illness.
The reason why things look purely psychological is because the human mind revolves around spinning narratives explaining both own and other people's experiences in terms of events and decisions.
blindmute(1)
So is 1 basically rubber ducky debugging but for social situations? Because I do this pretty often by myself. I feel it does require a certain level of self-honesty and I've often used good friends (the ones who I know will call me on my BS) as sounding boards to double check my conclusions.
(2) is rubber duck debugging (written in a condescending way).
The point of rubber duck debugging is the duck isn't talking back, or questioning why the code exists, or why the project exists, or suggesting different programming approaches - it just sits there while you work through explaining it and listening to you.
The point of rubber duck debugging is the duck isn't talking back, or questioning why the code exists, or why the project exists, or suggesting different programming approaches - it just sits there while you work through explaining it and listening to you.
Rubber ducking for non-technical issues. Love the concept
I may not have read your post correctly but why do you think "seeking sympathy and confirmation" is mutually exclusive to a "mature response"?
There is a tendency I have seen in people in the tech industry to try to problem solve everything. Like debugging a bug. In my experience this creates unhealthy relationships. Sometimes all we can do is listen and say, "yeah that sucks, I'm sorry".
There is a tendency I have seen in people in the tech industry to try to problem solve everything. Like debugging a bug. In my experience this creates unhealthy relationships. Sometimes all we can do is listen and say, "yeah that sucks, I'm sorry".
Is this
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estrange...
and example of type (2)?
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estrange...
and example of type (2)?
Sheesh I was not ready to read that, nor get as hooked in as I did. Some of those bullet-points are things I've witnessed first hand in an 'IRL' parenting group from some now ex-members.
As an estranged child I was not ready to read that. Sent it to my other sibling (also recently estranged from the family) and we're both just...in shock.
I had the same reaction. Pretty mind-blowing that it's so common, and that they encourage each other in their... what I can only describe as 'Evil'.
The abusers and their mental gymnastics not only hit home, it drove home the point that I was most definitely right to distance myself as much as possible rather than ever hope for some sort of reform.
The abusers and their mental gymnastics not only hit home, it drove home the point that I was most definitely right to distance myself as much as possible rather than ever hope for some sort of reform.
I don't want to overstretch my already thin stance, but I think a lot of social groups are built on this. Finding peers that respond to your experience.
I noticed something about web convos, they're often transient blips. You vent, get validated, come back a month later, vent again. It's very shallow.
Lastly, I wonder how much of youth venting is due to having too much time on their hands. Imagining a society where people just have more things to do (but also integrated faster and smoother in the work force) ... I'd bet 10$ that people would vent less. It's not a cheap jab at young people, I had to learn that myself too.
I noticed something about web convos, they're often transient blips. You vent, get validated, come back a month later, vent again. It's very shallow.
Lastly, I wonder how much of youth venting is due to having too much time on their hands. Imagining a society where people just have more things to do (but also integrated faster and smoother in the work force) ... I'd bet 10$ that people would vent less. It's not a cheap jab at young people, I had to learn that myself too.
People in group 1 are seeking your validation and adjusting expressed feelings to what you want to hear. I know, because I was definitely like that. I would tell things that sound mature, to sound mature, but they were not the truth nor the reality.
>It becomes an in-group thing where you need to adopt an outward appearance of being very frustrated to fit in with the other people in the group.
Very important point. Similarly, many self-help groups trend towards a culture of "wound worship."
Very important point. Similarly, many self-help groups trend towards a culture of "wound worship."
It sounds like the aggressive behavior was measured pretty soon after hitting the punching bag. It would be interesting to run the test again after the adrenaline has worn off.
I don't think proponents of catharsis are claiming that screaming at a tree if going to instantly make you calmer, it's that later that day you might feel better.
Also, participants were instructed to focus their anger on the perpetrator of the criticism, whereas it's probably healthier and more effective to simply focus on releasing your aggression.
Or, a combo study would be interesting where participants are instructed to hit a punching bag and then try to empathize with themselves or others, vs. only trying to empathize.
Anyway, it's an interesting study, but I'm not sure I'd rule out catharsis just yet.
I don't think proponents of catharsis are claiming that screaming at a tree if going to instantly make you calmer, it's that later that day you might feel better.
Also, participants were instructed to focus their anger on the perpetrator of the criticism, whereas it's probably healthier and more effective to simply focus on releasing your aggression.
Or, a combo study would be interesting where participants are instructed to hit a punching bag and then try to empathize with themselves or others, vs. only trying to empathize.
Anyway, it's an interesting study, but I'm not sure I'd rule out catharsis just yet.
There's also this implicit conclusion that venting must not work if the levels of aggression don't change, but the article did say that blood pressure dropped. I thought the paragraphs on venting to friends didn't make much sense to me either--honestly, if something terrible happened to a friend, and they didn't vent to me about it, at least a little, I'd be wondering if we were still friends.
As an aside, I'd be curious to see the effects of venting on the subject as well as people that surround them. I'd also be curious to see the effects during a one-time episode and through repeated exposure.
I say that, because one of the worst things about social media is the venting. It's almost like folks are trying to suck you into a weird codependent relationship with them.
I say that, because one of the worst things about social media is the venting. It's almost like folks are trying to suck you into a weird codependent relationship with them.
Do you know of a single study that supports catharsis? Because all studies I know of disprove or end up inconclusive.
I think this begs the question in assuming there is just one type of catharsis. In my experience, things like this can be done productively or unproductively, effectively or ineffectively. It's all about the execution, and different people use the same word for different things.
I know catharsis was extremely helpful in my grieving process.
Realistically, I'm not sure how you would even design a study to accurately measure the effects. Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
Realistically, I'm not sure how you would even design a study to accurately measure the effects. Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
I'm glad it helped your grieving process, and a big yes to the reality of "this is hard to study".
I have an intuition that catharsis as part of a grief process might be quite different (more useful) than in situations where the anger arises out of other circumstances.
I have an intuition that catharsis as part of a grief process might be quite different (more useful) than in situations where the anger arises out of other circumstances.
For the value of an anecdote: in my grieving process, I tried several forms of catharsis: hitting a heavy bag, yelling, running and biking angry. In every case, it made me more angry. I got worse. The anger turned inward. It wasn't until I stopped that approach that I made any progress in my grief.
> Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
That's not true. In the article, they mention observational studies wherein folks who vent are more likely to lash out. That isn't self-reporting.
> Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
That's not true. In the article, they mention observational studies wherein folks who vent are more likely to lash out. That isn't self-reporting.
> Since the students weren’t randomly assigned to either vent or not, it’s possible that the most anxious are the ones who chose to vent (so that venting was correlated with increased anxiety, not the cause of it)
Yes, that particular study may have flaws in its execution. But that doesn't prove that studies on venting are necessarily self-reporting.
I've seen someone close to me have some kind of a cathartic process and get a lot better. It also required finally facing (at least some of) their emotional blocks or trauma, so it's not like venting alone did much of anything. But I'm pretty sure that if they hadn't got the opportunity to air a lot of their previously suppressed feelings in emotional safety, the rest of it also wouldn't have happened.
I don't think aggressive venting alone is going to do much, but whenever I come across one of these studies that purport to show catharsis as not existing, I can't avoid feeling there must be more to the story.
Some people are also going to interpret "catharsis/venting does not work" as meaning it's perfectly wise to not listen with actual empathy and just slam solutions at people instead. But that also doesn't work.
I don't think aggressive venting alone is going to do much, but whenever I come across one of these studies that purport to show catharsis as not existing, I can't avoid feeling there must be more to the story.
Some people are also going to interpret "catharsis/venting does not work" as meaning it's perfectly wise to not listen with actual empathy and just slam solutions at people instead. But that also doesn't work.
Tbf, this study only examines catharsis as it relates to anger, not grief. Those emotions involve different networks in the brain, so it's perfectly plausible that catharsis would work differently.
One of a few studies I've read followed people and found that people who engage in catharsis do it more often and have lower tolerances to irritants.
One of the earlier studies just had people's anger tracked(anger has a very clear physiological response). So no need to have it self reported.
One of the earlier studies just had people's anger tracked(anger has a very clear physiological response). So no need to have it self reported.
Anecdata but a good boxing session after a stressful workday always makes me feel better. High intensity running also works. Great for relieving various undirected frustrations. Especially of the angry kind.
Writing in a journal does wonders for the more subtle things. When your mind is running in circles trying to process something. The act of writing it out helps me avoid circles and get to a conclusion.
The only thing that never does much is bottling it up inside.
Writing in a journal does wonders for the more subtle things. When your mind is running in circles trying to process something. The act of writing it out helps me avoid circles and get to a conclusion.
The only thing that never does much is bottling it up inside.
Intense physical activity isn't necessarily violent catharsis.
I almost never engage in catharsis now, but I do go on half marathon runs when I'm stressed. They're not the same thing... as like yelling at my husband over random annoyances.
I almost never engage in catharsis now, but I do go on half marathon runs when I'm stressed. They're not the same thing... as like yelling at my husband over random annoyances.
It definitely seems likely that physical activity is beneficial. I'd be curious to see studies comparing something like running vs. boxing. (Also weightlifting vs. cardio, or springs vs. long-distance.)
Additionally, one thing that's often obscured in studies (or the reporting thereof) is that different people are different. Studies say that running doesn't help people lose weight, but that's looking for significant effects across a population. For some individuals, it does. The concept of "ymmv" is incredibly important when you care about individual impacts.
Additionally, one thing that's often obscured in studies (or the reporting thereof) is that different people are different. Studies say that running doesn't help people lose weight, but that's looking for significant effects across a population. For some individuals, it does. The concept of "ymmv" is incredibly important when you care about individual impacts.
Almost 100 comments as of me adding mine, and you're the first to mention journaling so I have to chime in. It's better than some therapy I've had. Therapy can of course be hugely helpful if/when you find a decent therapist, but writing things down really is the next best thing.
I haven't felt the need to do it in years, since I replaced it with a concise log which doesn't usually get bogged down in details. Mostly because I purged the majority of my worst freakouts into text files no one else is likely to read years ago. This wasn't the only thing that helped me, but it was at least half of it.
I haven't felt the need to do it in years, since I replaced it with a concise log which doesn't usually get bogged down in details. Mostly because I purged the majority of my worst freakouts into text files no one else is likely to read years ago. This wasn't the only thing that helped me, but it was at least half of it.
No, just anecdotally I've seen it work for other people and it's worked for me at times as well. But that's not to say some other method wouldn't have worked just as well. And "worked" is a loose term, that just means "happier and less angry", rather than some form of perfection.
It seems plausible that catharsis makes some people more agitated and perhaps unhappy.
It also seems likely that those agitated, unhappy people continue to struggle and don't give up as opposed to those who "stop venting".
"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." — Dylan Thomas
It also seems likely that those agitated, unhappy people continue to struggle and don't give up as opposed to those who "stop venting".
"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." — Dylan Thomas
Don't give up, or train themselves to be agitated and unhappy?
¿Por qué no los dos?
I'm not persuaded that those who "stop venting" end up happier in the long run. It seems like a road to letting yourself be mashed down and convincing yourself that you lack power to change your circumstances.
I'm glad that Malcolm X didn't pay attention to all the people who wished he'd "stop venting".
I'm not persuaded that those who "stop venting" end up happier in the long run. It seems like a road to letting yourself be mashed down and convincing yourself that you lack power to change your circumstances.
I'm glad that Malcolm X didn't pay attention to all the people who wished he'd "stop venting".
Did Malcolm X vent by yelling at trees, punching pillows or griping to his friends?
You mentioned punching bags.
What if the punching bag is a person or pet or something able to hurt?
Sometimes their adrenaline never wears off so there is no test to run again.
What if the punching bag is a person or pet or something able to hurt?
Sometimes their adrenaline never wears off so there is no test to run again.
One of the most stressful projects I ever worked on had a really great way of dealing with the stress (a policy that I created).
Every meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, everybody was required to complain for 5 minutes. Just talk about all the stupid decisions that got us to this point, how unreasonable the timeline was, any staffing issues you were having, any parts you needed, etc. 5 minutes. You are required to complain.
It helped a LOT, and almost a decade later when I interact with that team, we still all look back glowingly on that practice as something good.
It was a tense project, and that "you have to complain for 5 minutes" completely broke all of the tension, and let us all work together effectively. If we hadn't implemented that policy, we might not have finished the project on time.
Every meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, everybody was required to complain for 5 minutes. Just talk about all the stupid decisions that got us to this point, how unreasonable the timeline was, any staffing issues you were having, any parts you needed, etc. 5 minutes. You are required to complain.
It helped a LOT, and almost a decade later when I interact with that team, we still all look back glowingly on that practice as something good.
It was a tense project, and that "you have to complain for 5 minutes" completely broke all of the tension, and let us all work together effectively. If we hadn't implemented that policy, we might not have finished the project on time.
There's a subtle distinction that I don't think the article addressed very well.
One thing is doing something like: I know I am angry at you, my reasons are very clear to me, and now, without adding to my understanding of them, I am going to yell at you for 15 minutes, loudly.
Another is doing this: not really being sure what you're anxious or angry about, so talking about it to explore your muddled thoughts and figure it out, in a regular to soft voice.
I can see how they flow into each other and too much of the second inevitably becomes the first. But when capped (like at 5 minutes) - appropriately modulated (not yelling anger) - in a group context (further modulating the emotions) - you could arguably get the benefits of the 2nd without the downsides of the 1st.
One thing is doing something like: I know I am angry at you, my reasons are very clear to me, and now, without adding to my understanding of them, I am going to yell at you for 15 minutes, loudly.
Another is doing this: not really being sure what you're anxious or angry about, so talking about it to explore your muddled thoughts and figure it out, in a regular to soft voice.
I can see how they flow into each other and too much of the second inevitably becomes the first. But when capped (like at 5 minutes) - appropriately modulated (not yelling anger) - in a group context (further modulating the emotions) - you could arguably get the benefits of the 2nd without the downsides of the 1st.
It also depends on what kind of challenges the team faces in the first place. If there are a lot of issues stemming from faceless corporate policies or bugs in external tools or something then venting about these things for a few minutes every meeting could be good team building. If the challenges involve each other or an adjacent manager or something though even 5 minutes could get mean spirited quickly.
How did you make sure that no one would complain that "Bob was an idiot who kept breaking the build", or "Alice never does her code reviews and blocks everyone"?
Best approach: Don't hire people like that.
Good approach: Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team.
Good approach: Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team.
> Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team.
Very often, it is the case that a specific person /is/ the problem.
Very often, it is the case that a specific person /is/ the problem.
Well yeah, but just don't call them out.
If you identify a problem, the person responsible will (usually) know you're talking about them, and may even appreciate that you're not calling them out in front of the team.
If necessary, you can always reach out to them one-on-one afterwards.
If you identify a problem, the person responsible will (usually) know you're talking about them, and may even appreciate that you're not calling them out in front of the team.
If necessary, you can always reach out to them one-on-one afterwards.
I agree with your premise. I’m talking more about reality, where there can be bad actors and incompetent management.
I've found the problem with venting can be that it cements an idea in your head.
This is particularly true with people. If I find myself venting that <X> doesn't know what the heck they're doing, I've internally solidified that belief. If <X> improves, if I'm on another project with <X> where they clearly have a lot of knowledge, then it can still be too late. I've verbalized to myself ( and worse, my partner ) that X is incompetent and I'm not going to easily let that go.
I think it's true with other things. <Y> is a terrible idea, <Z>'s code base is a mess. If I let it role over me, notice things without forcing an opinion, I'm more likely to realize I've judged to soon.
This is particularly true with people. If I find myself venting that <X> doesn't know what the heck they're doing, I've internally solidified that belief. If <X> improves, if I'm on another project with <X> where they clearly have a lot of knowledge, then it can still be too late. I've verbalized to myself ( and worse, my partner ) that X is incompetent and I'm not going to easily let that go.
I think it's true with other things. <Y> is a terrible idea, <Z>'s code base is a mess. If I let it role over me, notice things without forcing an opinion, I'm more likely to realize I've judged to soon.
This is an interesting one particularly when it comes to listening well in intimate relationships— the wisdom is that men are generally worse listeners and have a tendency to want fix things rather than just being present with their partner to understand how they are feeling and where they are at. And that learning to do this and learning to ask for it, are important pieces of long term relationship success.
All of which makes sense, but I do think some of the times when I've struggled with this was maybe tied into what your describing: a concern that while my partner's feelings of hurt or whatever were total valid, I found it hard to separate validating just the feelings while not also validating what I felt were unfair judgments/characterizations about the people or situations involved, and was nervous that letting those judgments go by unaddressed was indeed going to cement them as a future factual reference point.
All of which makes sense, but I do think some of the times when I've struggled with this was maybe tied into what your describing: a concern that while my partner's feelings of hurt or whatever were total valid, I found it hard to separate validating just the feelings while not also validating what I felt were unfair judgments/characterizations about the people or situations involved, and was nervous that letting those judgments go by unaddressed was indeed going to cement them as a future factual reference point.
I agree with this to some extent, but I think when I get to the point of externally venting I've already pretty strongly internalized the thought. My larger concern with venting is that it seems to encourage bad next step coping strategies for me. I vent that "X is terrible so it's hard for me to get anything done" and oftentimes this gets validated in a way that encourages the "not getting anything done" part, which isn't helpful even when X actually is terrible. There's a fine line between recognizing that you're in a difficult situation and giving yourself an excuse to fail, at least for me.
Like a lot of things, venting is probably good in moderation, as long as you are able to keep it in moderation. The most recent situation I was in I had trouble telling how much of the problem was on me, and then by venting to some coworkers I pretty quickly discovered that nearly everyone felt the same way about X. This was comforting at first, but the more we vented the more I felt justified in blowing off work. I didn't even replace that time with anything personally productive unfortunately. I've regrouped now and am working on getting out of the project the right way, but I wish I handled it better in the first place.
Like a lot of things, venting is probably good in moderation, as long as you are able to keep it in moderation. The most recent situation I was in I had trouble telling how much of the problem was on me, and then by venting to some coworkers I pretty quickly discovered that nearly everyone felt the same way about X. This was comforting at first, but the more we vented the more I felt justified in blowing off work. I didn't even replace that time with anything personally productive unfortunately. I've regrouped now and am working on getting out of the project the right way, but I wish I handled it better in the first place.
I think they've missed the point.
Venting isn't for catharsis; It's for seeking validation. When you vent TO someone and they lend a sympathetic ear, it's a huge help.
Venting is a social bonding ritual.
You generally don't get this online because most of the audience is NOT sympathetic, so you'll get criticism after criticism, making things even worse.
Venting isn't for catharsis; It's for seeking validation. When you vent TO someone and they lend a sympathetic ear, it's a huge help.
Venting is a social bonding ritual.
You generally don't get this online because most of the audience is NOT sympathetic, so you'll get criticism after criticism, making things even worse.
100% agree.
Anger usually stems from a boundary being violated. It's our instinctive evolved response for pushing back against someone who has encroached on us.
When we "vent" to a peer, it is relieving because it transfers that personal boundary to a group boundary. We feel "OK, my peer will now back me up the next time this happens."
Venting is like yelling for reinforcements when you see someone storming your corner of the castle wall.
Anger usually stems from a boundary being violated. It's our instinctive evolved response for pushing back against someone who has encroached on us.
When we "vent" to a peer, it is relieving because it transfers that personal boundary to a group boundary. We feel "OK, my peer will now back me up the next time this happens."
Venting is like yelling for reinforcements when you see someone storming your corner of the castle wall.
Yes it's a communicative act. Communication can be bounced off others
for social validation as you say, but can also be to oneself.
You'd still vent, if alone on a desert island, maybe to The Gods.
Ever hear yourself saying out loud, usually with expletives, something that you would "never say"? Listen to that voice!
That's communication of unconscious but frustrated thoughts. Sometimes it has to come out verbally because ones inner dialogue isn't strong enough due to social or superego suppression.
After you said it to yourself you feel better.
We are not the singular identities simpler minds suppose us.
You'd still vent, if alone on a desert island, maybe to The Gods.
Ever hear yourself saying out loud, usually with expletives, something that you would "never say"? Listen to that voice!
That's communication of unconscious but frustrated thoughts. Sometimes it has to come out verbally because ones inner dialogue isn't strong enough due to social or superego suppression.
After you said it to yourself you feel better.
We are not the singular identities simpler minds suppose us.
Exactly, thank you! This article just read so bizarre to me - who thinks that venting is supposed to change your opinion about the matter? It felt like reading a headline like, "Researchers find that cardio vascular exercise doesn't help increase shoe size"
That's not what it's for. It's for getting thoughts out of your head, having the opportunity to articulate strong feelings that might otherwise be fuzzy, and for feeling heard and supported.
If changing your opinions is the goal, venting is pretty clearly not the way to get there.
That's not what it's for. It's for getting thoughts out of your head, having the opportunity to articulate strong feelings that might otherwise be fuzzy, and for feeling heard and supported.
If changing your opinions is the goal, venting is pretty clearly not the way to get there.
There are lots of sympathetic audiences online too— see relationship or parenting vents on tiktok, where the comments are often just wall-to-wall supportive, with crown emojis, slogans like "SLAYYYY!" etc. Twitch "just chatting" streams can be like this sometimes too.
But I do wonder how much of it actually lands for the recipient. As an influencer putting out a carefully curated image of yourself, how meaningful is it to be boosted by a bunch of mostly-anonymous strangers? Wouldn't it just feed into a kind of dissociative thing where you recognize that they're praising and lifting up a mask and have no idea about the particulars of the real person's struggles? I don't know.
But I do wonder how much of it actually lands for the recipient. As an influencer putting out a carefully curated image of yourself, how meaningful is it to be boosted by a bunch of mostly-anonymous strangers? Wouldn't it just feed into a kind of dissociative thing where you recognize that they're praising and lifting up a mask and have no idea about the particulars of the real person's struggles? I don't know.
From Robert Sapolsky's Behave, I learnt about the notion of "displacement aggression". We know what it is intuitively, but in short: depressingly enough, the reason stress encourages aggression is that it reduces stress. And we don't yet know the underlying biology of it.
[quote]
Shock a rat and its glucocorticoid levels [a key stress-signaller] and blood pressure rise; with enough shocks, it’s at risk for a “stress” ulcer. Various things can buffer the rat during shocks—running on a running wheel, eating, gnawing on wood in frustration. But a particularly effective buffer is for the rat to bite another rat. Stress-induced (aka frustration-induced) displacement aggression is ubiquitous in various species.
Among baboons, for example, nearly half of aggression is this type—a high-ranking male loses a fight and chases a subadult male, who promptly bites a female, who then lunges at an infant. My research shows that within the same dominance rank, the more a baboon tends to displace aggression after losing a fight, the lower his glucocorticoid levels.
Humans excel at stress-induced displacement aggression—consider how economic downturns increase rates of spousal and child abuse. Or consider a study of family violence and pro football. If the local team unexpectedly loses, spousal/partner violence by men increases 10 percent soon afterward (with no increase when the team won or was expected to lose). [...]
Little is known concerning the neurobiology of displacement aggression blunting the stress response. I’d guess that lashing out activates dopaminergic reward pathways, a surefire way to inhibit CRH release [a hormone involved in the stress response]. Far too often, giving an ulcer helps avoid getting one.
[/quote]
- - -
[quote]
Shock a rat and its glucocorticoid levels [a key stress-signaller] and blood pressure rise; with enough shocks, it’s at risk for a “stress” ulcer. Various things can buffer the rat during shocks—running on a running wheel, eating, gnawing on wood in frustration. But a particularly effective buffer is for the rat to bite another rat. Stress-induced (aka frustration-induced) displacement aggression is ubiquitous in various species.
Among baboons, for example, nearly half of aggression is this type—a high-ranking male loses a fight and chases a subadult male, who promptly bites a female, who then lunges at an infant. My research shows that within the same dominance rank, the more a baboon tends to displace aggression after losing a fight, the lower his glucocorticoid levels.
Humans excel at stress-induced displacement aggression—consider how economic downturns increase rates of spousal and child abuse. Or consider a study of family violence and pro football. If the local team unexpectedly loses, spousal/partner violence by men increases 10 percent soon afterward (with no increase when the team won or was expected to lose). [...]
Little is known concerning the neurobiology of displacement aggression blunting the stress response. I’d guess that lashing out activates dopaminergic reward pathways, a surefire way to inhibit CRH release [a hormone involved in the stress response]. Far too often, giving an ulcer helps avoid getting one.
[/quote]
A couple people have mentioned Sapolsky and he came to my mind also. Here's a comment I made a while back along the same lines on an article about why swearing (as a form of venting) does work (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12229422). Sapolsky again on rats and baboons (from Why Zebra’s Don’t Get Ulcers):
A variant of Weiss's experiment uncovers a special feature of the outlet-for-frustration reaction. This time, when the rat gets the identical series of electric shocks and is upset, it can run across the cage, sit next to another rat and... bite the hell out of it. Stress-induced displacement of aggression: the practice works wonders at minimizing the stressfulness of a stressor. It's a real primate specialty as well. A male baboon loses a fight. Frustrated, he spins around and attacks a subordinate male who was minding his own business. An extremely high percentage of primate aggression represent frustration displaced onto innocent bystanders.
I recently left a job and boss where this dynamic was very much in play (more blaming than biting but obvious displacement aggression all the same).
My conclusion: swearing (venting) might be seen as a more civilized form of displacing stress-induced aggression.
A variant of Weiss's experiment uncovers a special feature of the outlet-for-frustration reaction. This time, when the rat gets the identical series of electric shocks and is upset, it can run across the cage, sit next to another rat and... bite the hell out of it. Stress-induced displacement of aggression: the practice works wonders at minimizing the stressfulness of a stressor. It's a real primate specialty as well. A male baboon loses a fight. Frustrated, he spins around and attacks a subordinate male who was minding his own business. An extremely high percentage of primate aggression represent frustration displaced onto innocent bystanders.
I recently left a job and boss where this dynamic was very much in play (more blaming than biting but obvious displacement aggression all the same).
My conclusion: swearing (venting) might be seen as a more civilized form of displacing stress-induced aggression.
You, in combination with the article, are describing an is/ought situation here.
Displacing aggression---biting another rat---reduces your stress. (This is an is statement.)
Therefore, to reduce your stress, you should bite one of the other rats. (This is an ought statement.)
But biting another rat leads to a stack of bad downstream consequences, which may include things that raise your stress. Therefore, not displacing aggression is the better option; certainly, telling other people to do so is probably not a good idea. Even if you are displacing aggression in a safe manner, by chewing on a piece of wood or yelling at a tree, you train yourself to respond that way to stress and will eventually end up biting an innocent rat.
Displacing aggression---biting another rat---reduces your stress. (This is an is statement.)
Therefore, to reduce your stress, you should bite one of the other rats. (This is an ought statement.)
But biting another rat leads to a stack of bad downstream consequences, which may include things that raise your stress. Therefore, not displacing aggression is the better option; certainly, telling other people to do so is probably not a good idea. Even if you are displacing aggression in a safe manner, by chewing on a piece of wood or yelling at a tree, you train yourself to respond that way to stress and will eventually end up biting an innocent rat.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply any "ought" here at all. I should've been more explicit. I thought my opening remark of "depressingly enough" was sufficient to note that I was lamenting the "is"ness of the situation, and don't "recommend" it (yikes!).
There is likely no good medium- or long-term benefit to venting, especially when it's defined as physical violence directed at objects or verbal aggression directed at people. That's pretty clear.
But one of the best pieces of advice my therapist gave me was that under extreme stress, sometimes the only path to making it to the next minute intact is to do something where the long-term benefit isn't clear, or even negative. In those moments, the best we can do is focus on preventing harm to others and minimizing harm to ourselves. (This isn't just about venting, but other stress and trauma reactions.)
If a situation is so terrible that there's a chance of having a more brutal breakdown (or in my case, a suicide attempt) if we don't throw a plastic cup at a wall, or scream out the pain, or otherwise do something stupid for that short burst of peace with a relatively high cost, then we won't make it to a point where we can reflect on how we got there, and how to actually get to a better place in the medium- or long-term.
Cycles of venting are bad, because constantly venting means constantly being under stress, which means it's harder and harder to step away from it to recognize the sources of the stress and break that cycle. But as a response to a peak in stress, or a sudden trauma, it's a tool - not the best tool, not even a good tool, but if it's the _only_ tool I can reach in time, the advice I got (for myself, which I am not a therapist, and which may not be relevant to you) was to not second-guess whether to use it.
But one of the best pieces of advice my therapist gave me was that under extreme stress, sometimes the only path to making it to the next minute intact is to do something where the long-term benefit isn't clear, or even negative. In those moments, the best we can do is focus on preventing harm to others and minimizing harm to ourselves. (This isn't just about venting, but other stress and trauma reactions.)
If a situation is so terrible that there's a chance of having a more brutal breakdown (or in my case, a suicide attempt) if we don't throw a plastic cup at a wall, or scream out the pain, or otherwise do something stupid for that short burst of peace with a relatively high cost, then we won't make it to a point where we can reflect on how we got there, and how to actually get to a better place in the medium- or long-term.
Cycles of venting are bad, because constantly venting means constantly being under stress, which means it's harder and harder to step away from it to recognize the sources of the stress and break that cycle. But as a response to a peak in stress, or a sudden trauma, it's a tool - not the best tool, not even a good tool, but if it's the _only_ tool I can reach in time, the advice I got (for myself, which I am not a therapist, and which may not be relevant to you) was to not second-guess whether to use it.
A more general version of this:
You, being vaguely competent, are where you are because it is a local optima. Always, to progress to a better state, you are going to take at least some steps down a hill to get there. Sometimes a lot of them. We end up in situations bc the paths past/out of them are not obvious or easy.
Don't let an obsession for every step being 'improvement' prevent you from taking the messy up and down path to get somewhere better.
You, being vaguely competent, are where you are because it is a local optima. Always, to progress to a better state, you are going to take at least some steps down a hill to get there. Sometimes a lot of them. We end up in situations bc the paths past/out of them are not obvious or easy.
Don't let an obsession for every step being 'improvement' prevent you from taking the messy up and down path to get somewhere better.
> Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire.
There could be some truth to it. Since I started venting on HN about how bad ads, drm, social media, and patents are, their prevalence has increased!
There could be some truth to it. Since I started venting on HN about how bad ads, drm, social media, and patents are, their prevalence has increased!
> Recent headlines have shared tales of venting by everyone from Olympians to Russell Westbrook to moms meeting in a park to scream.
Russell Westbrook is an Olympian...
Russell Westbrook is an Olympian...
"Stop Venting" doesn't just "work" either. Processing your emotions and letting go of them does. David Hawkins' book, aptly named 'Letting Go,' covers this in detail.
For me, venting is absolutely essential. It's my greatest source of motivation. Once I can clearly identify and describe flaws which I see in the system which are holding me back, I can start to look for alternative paths... At the same time, venting helps to raise awareness of systemic flaws; it increases the probability that the flaws will be fixed at some point in the future.
So if I vent about some issue today, there is a chance that it will be resolved in maybe 20 years from now... So if I managed to keep working for 20 years straight, I will be among the first in line to benefit from the system being fixed because I'd have been waiting for that fix for so long and keeping tabs on it.
For example, I've been venting my frustrations about the fiat monetary system for years while being involved in crypto. I'm just building software while at the same time waiting for the monetary system to get fixed so that my work has a chance of becoming relevant.
I'm also benefiting from mainstream crypto projects (not my own) acting as an 'alternative path' since they benefit from the flaws in the monetary system due to the wealth concentrating forces of centralized money-printing. Unfortunately, my own projects cannot benefit from the current fiat system because me and my community are socially too far from the money printers... Though obviously, the Bitcoin network is very close to the sources of freshly printed fiat...
So if I vent about some issue today, there is a chance that it will be resolved in maybe 20 years from now... So if I managed to keep working for 20 years straight, I will be among the first in line to benefit from the system being fixed because I'd have been waiting for that fix for so long and keeping tabs on it.
For example, I've been venting my frustrations about the fiat monetary system for years while being involved in crypto. I'm just building software while at the same time waiting for the monetary system to get fixed so that my work has a chance of becoming relevant.
I'm also benefiting from mainstream crypto projects (not my own) acting as an 'alternative path' since they benefit from the flaws in the monetary system due to the wealth concentrating forces of centralized money-printing. Unfortunately, my own projects cannot benefit from the current fiat system because me and my community are socially too far from the money printers... Though obviously, the Bitcoin network is very close to the sources of freshly printed fiat...
If true, wouldn’t this undermine the entire psychiatric approach of behavioral cognitive therapy and ideas such as confronting one’s fears and talking through problems?
From TFA: “chatting with friends can bring closure when they help you reconstrue an event, rather than just recount it. What does that look like? Asking why you think the other person acted that way, prodding to see whether there’s anything to be learned from it all, and just generally broadening your perspective to ‘the grand scheme of things.’ Unfortunately, this type of meaning-making is far from common outside of therapy”
Article also mentioned the “The thoughts you water are the ones that grow" idiom.
CBT is often about reframing or "reconstrueing" a negative or damaging viewpoint into something less emotionally charged. Venting is just watering and reinforcing the emotionally charged pathways -- the "gasoline on a fire" analogy.
CBT is often about reframing or "reconstrueing" a negative or damaging viewpoint into something less emotionally charged. Venting is just watering and reinforcing the emotionally charged pathways -- the "gasoline on a fire" analogy.
CBT is nearly the opposite of venting. Venting is just pouring out raw emotion, no confrontation.
Venting is "John is an asshole who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag. I hope that fucker's entire dick just falls off. He doesn't deserve jack shit."
CBT is more measured. You acknowledge the feeling, but you separate yourself from it. "Yes, I'm mad. I'm mad because of THING. THING upsets me because I believe it should be like THIS. My options are THESE."
Venting is letting your emotions drive your actions. CBT is letting your reason temper your emotion. You control your actions in spite of your emotions.
Venting is "John is an asshole who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag. I hope that fucker's entire dick just falls off. He doesn't deserve jack shit."
CBT is more measured. You acknowledge the feeling, but you separate yourself from it. "Yes, I'm mad. I'm mad because of THING. THING upsets me because I believe it should be like THIS. My options are THESE."
Venting is letting your emotions drive your actions. CBT is letting your reason temper your emotion. You control your actions in spite of your emotions.
I went through a Veterans Administration course of CBT and In Vivo Exposure Therapy and it was nothing like the "primal scream" therapies I did in the 90's that you may be thinking of. I thought "venting" was disproven to work in the late last century. That said, anything that interrupts a looping thought process is good. I've gone to the beach and rolled around in the cold pounding surf just to reset my head.
https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-...
https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-...
In my experience, therapy wasn't venting, it structured approaches to deal with the reasons that led to the need for venting.
Those are entirely different concepts.
"Confronting one's fears" is usually about forcing yourself to accept and internalize that your fears are unfounded. Good examples are a fear of roller coasters, fear of flying, or basically anything else that is 99.999% harmless.
Talking through problems is way to guide you (and potentially another person) into understanding, acceptance, and compromise.
"Confronting one's fears" is usually about forcing yourself to accept and internalize that your fears are unfounded. Good examples are a fear of roller coasters, fear of flying, or basically anything else that is 99.999% harmless.
Talking through problems is way to guide you (and potentially another person) into understanding, acceptance, and compromise.
I’m not sure why. “Venting” doesn’t seem to have much overlap with CBT other than words being involved.
[deleted]
I think there's a difference between mindlessly venting and mindfully stepping through thought processes.
If the headline is true, yes. If the article is true, the opposite.
Doing good science around this kind of stuff is extremely difficult ...
My personal experience with Psychodrama and Gestalt in the late '70s and early '80s was that for someone like myself who was very much 'in my head', it was an opportunity to acknowledge my own repressed anger. But in retrospect, it was/is also behavior rehearsal for bad behavior in the rest of my life. More effective was modern Somatic Experience techniques where the impulse to respond in anger is explored with a lot of inner attention and slow-motion movements of pushing away and/or striking back. I would call it more grounded and more present. There is dissociation that occurred for me with so-called cathartic anger.
The variation in 'venting' adds to the complexity of the conversation. Physical venting vs naming sources of anger/frustration. Based on my personal experience, physical venting is far less effective than verbal venting, and of course verbal venting is massively variable. Naming the exact source of frustration strikes me as more likely to be usefully defusing than just shouting that someone is an f-ing a*hole. I can imagine the inclusion of humor, for example, would have a huge impact.
My personal experience with Psychodrama and Gestalt in the late '70s and early '80s was that for someone like myself who was very much 'in my head', it was an opportunity to acknowledge my own repressed anger. But in retrospect, it was/is also behavior rehearsal for bad behavior in the rest of my life. More effective was modern Somatic Experience techniques where the impulse to respond in anger is explored with a lot of inner attention and slow-motion movements of pushing away and/or striking back. I would call it more grounded and more present. There is dissociation that occurred for me with so-called cathartic anger.
The variation in 'venting' adds to the complexity of the conversation. Physical venting vs naming sources of anger/frustration. Based on my personal experience, physical venting is far less effective than verbal venting, and of course verbal venting is massively variable. Naming the exact source of frustration strikes me as more likely to be usefully defusing than just shouting that someone is an f-ing a*hole. I can imagine the inclusion of humor, for example, would have a huge impact.
This seems like a great case of a bad headline derailing discussion. The first study quoted uses hitting a punching bag as an example of venting. I’d contrast that against what I think of as venting: talking about what’s bothering you without looking for the discussion to solve anything other than providing space to say what you’re feeling. When they say venting doesn’t work, they’re referring to a specific kind of venting.
> In more general terms, embracing our feelings isn’t the same as expressing them, and not all forms of expression are created equal. Realizing “I’m angry” (always OK) is a different beast from telling someone “I’m angry” (sometimes OK), and it’s even further from berating a loved one for causing your anger (not OK).
It’s a good article with a nuanced point, and all the discussion reacting to the shitty headline is a shame.
> In more general terms, embracing our feelings isn’t the same as expressing them, and not all forms of expression are created equal. Realizing “I’m angry” (always OK) is a different beast from telling someone “I’m angry” (sometimes OK), and it’s even further from berating a loved one for causing your anger (not OK).
It’s a good article with a nuanced point, and all the discussion reacting to the shitty headline is a shame.
Not sure of the validity of the article. But in my experience, my friends and colleagues who vent a lot seem to vent all the time. It seem like their venting is fueling whatever their annoyances is at that moment.
I think it's more about regulating your emotions in a calm, rational way. Venting can get emotional and could add fuel to the fire. But if you can achieve talking about the problem in a more calm, empathetic, rational way, it might work better. Of course, easier said than done.
I think it's more about regulating your emotions in a calm, rational way. Venting can get emotional and could add fuel to the fire. But if you can achieve talking about the problem in a more calm, empathetic, rational way, it might work better. Of course, easier said than done.
A proper venting process, like a heatsink or coolant, needs a mechanism to absorb the unwanted energy efficiently, and then disperse it. Asking folks to express anger or spend energy without it specifically drawing from the negative emotions within is like pouring coolant fluid from a bottle over your CPU box.
I think carefully channelled energy, however, can really help calm. I don't necessarily think it's catharsis really, as it would tend closer to meditation. Practising a martial art, trying to focus on something creative, going on a long run, playing a mentally demanding game (chess, go, starcraft) — with the right mindset, these allow you to harness your negative feelings into an activity that exists in its own sandbox, and then get processed in a way that only makes sense inside that sandbox. It's important that your activity is one where you have practised not getting further enraged (no 'tilting', as we say in video games) when you fail/perform badly inside your sandbox.
When you leave the sandbox, you find a tiny bit more peace with whatever enraged you.
I think carefully channelled energy, however, can really help calm. I don't necessarily think it's catharsis really, as it would tend closer to meditation. Practising a martial art, trying to focus on something creative, going on a long run, playing a mentally demanding game (chess, go, starcraft) — with the right mindset, these allow you to harness your negative feelings into an activity that exists in its own sandbox, and then get processed in a way that only makes sense inside that sandbox. It's important that your activity is one where you have practised not getting further enraged (no 'tilting', as we say in video games) when you fail/perform badly inside your sandbox.
When you leave the sandbox, you find a tiny bit more peace with whatever enraged you.
People do not vent anger. People vent frustration. Anger is usually a follow-up because the person does not have a motion forward or solution to the frustrating element.
In my experience people vent their frustration because they are stuck in their thinking and instinctively want to share it with others in hope the trusted person can give a way out, or comfort them.
In my experience people vent their frustration because they are stuck in their thinking and instinctively want to share it with others in hope the trusted person can give a way out, or comfort them.
Can't help but think the term "toxic," discredits the whole thing as a vehicle for something else. Aggression is natural and universal, but the tools for expressing and self-regulating it are not. One description of it that resonated personally for me was Robert Sapolsky's "depression is aggression turned inward," and while the phrase doesn't do the whole idea justice, it's more useful than hollow and seductive cliches like toxicity.
Arguably, aggression is necessarily an artifact of ideas of self and how we relate to others, and "venting" aggression safely lets you accept it (and yourself) in its totality and gives you a sense of how to manage it, instead of suppressing it and fearing that it will be exposed, only to have it come out in perverse other ways anyway. What bothers me about a lot of psychology is it seems mainly like a critical theory for deconstructing mental suffering as a means to relieve it theraputically - which is noble and useful, but it has been adopted as a scheme for moralizing coarse political interests.
Some years ago I turned a lot of my aggression outward and into disagreeableness, replacing a few intense relationships that enabled turning it inward with many new ones that did not, and it has made me more likeable, honest, trustworthy, reliable, fairer, and more sincerely compassionate, and as a result I have never been more content. It sets a healthy boundary where your natural aggression doesn't get triggered nearly as often, and you can manage it in other ways. Yes, some people will think you are an asshole, but the little bit of friction and occasional loss of a connection does not compare to relief and peace of just not caring what they think, and being free to engage people for only the enjoyment of it instead of some absurd sense of obligation. Or not.
Arguably, aggression is necessarily an artifact of ideas of self and how we relate to others, and "venting" aggression safely lets you accept it (and yourself) in its totality and gives you a sense of how to manage it, instead of suppressing it and fearing that it will be exposed, only to have it come out in perverse other ways anyway. What bothers me about a lot of psychology is it seems mainly like a critical theory for deconstructing mental suffering as a means to relieve it theraputically - which is noble and useful, but it has been adopted as a scheme for moralizing coarse political interests.
Some years ago I turned a lot of my aggression outward and into disagreeableness, replacing a few intense relationships that enabled turning it inward with many new ones that did not, and it has made me more likeable, honest, trustworthy, reliable, fairer, and more sincerely compassionate, and as a result I have never been more content. It sets a healthy boundary where your natural aggression doesn't get triggered nearly as often, and you can manage it in other ways. Yes, some people will think you are an asshole, but the little bit of friction and occasional loss of a connection does not compare to relief and peace of just not caring what they think, and being free to engage people for only the enjoyment of it instead of some absurd sense of obligation. Or not.
> Yes, some people will think you are an asshole, but the little bit of friction and occasional loss of a connection does not compare to relief and peace of just not caring what they think
I have found deep joy in un-filtering myself. Not worrying about every syllable that comes out of my mouth for fear of retaliation, cancellation, et. al. My social circle had to shrink a bit, but the trade-off is that I am no longer suffering from a constant stream of cognitive dissonance. I stopped forcing myself to believe in ridiculous pop-culture/tech bullshit just to fit in with others. It was taking too much out of me to fake it for arbitrary social credits.
The crazy thing is that I still have high quality social relationships despite my unfiltered expression. I'd rather have a few people I can actually trust with controversial ideas rather than an army of sycophants I have to pander to constantly.
I have found deep joy in un-filtering myself. Not worrying about every syllable that comes out of my mouth for fear of retaliation, cancellation, et. al. My social circle had to shrink a bit, but the trade-off is that I am no longer suffering from a constant stream of cognitive dissonance. I stopped forcing myself to believe in ridiculous pop-culture/tech bullshit just to fit in with others. It was taking too much out of me to fake it for arbitrary social credits.
The crazy thing is that I still have high quality social relationships despite my unfiltered expression. I'd rather have a few people I can actually trust with controversial ideas rather than an army of sycophants I have to pander to constantly.
> I stopped forcing myself to believe in ridiculous pop-culture/tech bullshit
Curious what this means?
Curious what this means?
OP probably doesn’t want to answer this question for the exact reason he posted his comment. Your inquiry may be in good faith but it is 99% of how the cancel warfare begins: “Here let me ask a really introspective question to see exactly how badly I’m going to throw my code words at you in my response.”
Perhaps, but unfortunately there is not enough information to get even a toehold on an idea. Do people really go online to present a fake persona? Most embellish, and I bet some do, but does anyone else care enough to pay attention? For most folks I'd say no.
If GP said, "politics" then I'd get the drift.
If GP said, "politics" then I'd get the drift.
> Perhaps, but unfortunately there is not enough information to get even a toehold on an idea.
Imagine some position you personally find to be controversial/wrong/stupid but that everyone else around you agrees with (or vice versa).
In my view, understanding what my position is on some arbitrary matter does not further this conversation in any meaningful way.
Imagine some position you personally find to be controversial/wrong/stupid but that everyone else around you agrees with (or vice versa).
In my view, understanding what my position is on some arbitrary matter does not further this conversation in any meaningful way.
The real question is probably, why were you "forcing yourself" to believe in things? Whole situation sounds contrived or perhaps not explained well.
Perhaps you’re surrounded by open minded people who you can gracefully decline to agree with on every subject. Many of us live in areas where not holding status quo opinions is enough to lose your job. So I can see where folks would try to believe something despite cognitive dissonance with it.
Lots to think about here, thank you for sharing.
I'm no stranger to depression, but thinking of it as aggression turned inward seems like a useful tool. Long term, I'd like to be able to befriend my aggression, or at least understand it, so it doesn't seem so inscrutable.
First step is probably just to recognize and accept that part of me.
I'm no stranger to depression, but thinking of it as aggression turned inward seems like a useful tool. Long term, I'd like to be able to befriend my aggression, or at least understand it, so it doesn't seem so inscrutable.
First step is probably just to recognize and accept that part of me.
Did you apply this concept from a book or other set of writings? I’m just curious about this process and would like to learn more.
[deleted]
+1 for mentioning the ever enlightening Robert Sapolsky
Can you expand on how an intense relationship can enable turning aggression inward? I’m genuinely curious about this idea.
I think by intense he implies with a lot of pressure from the other side. And like in most relationships we often try to internalise our stress in fear to make things worse and loose that relationship.If it's intense stress it's far more noticible.
Crucially, it was probably better for everyone else too, not just yourself.
Maybe this is wrong, but it sounds like you were in toxic relationships, ones which you were able to escape by asserting your boundaries. Asserting yourself is a little different than being hostile and/or violent, which is what aggression is usually considered.
In any case and semantics aside, congrats on removing relationships that were pushing you inwards and making you unhappy. Like the article mentions, brain pathways and behavior are like hiking paths, it's incredibly difficult to forge new ones and continually use them until it's normal.
In any case and semantics aside, congrats on removing relationships that were pushing you inwards and making you unhappy. Like the article mentions, brain pathways and behavior are like hiking paths, it's incredibly difficult to forge new ones and continually use them until it's normal.
I have been reading a lot of books by this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stoller
and up until his late book Sexual Excitement: Dynamics of Erotic Life he uses the word Hostility to mean "desire to hurt others" whereas aggression is the desire to make your mark in the world (e.g. it is "aggressive" to try to put the soccer ball in the other team's goal.)
By the time Excitement was written people started splitting the meaning of aggression to frame it as a bad thing (as Stoller said hostility was) and used assertion to describe the positive side of what Stoller called "aggression" and there is a short passage where Stoller talks about this change in terminology.
Stoller uses the terms "hostility" and "sadism" for phenomena that are more common than people might think. If you ever get some pleasure out of causing somebody to suffer, even in some small way (e.g. flag somebody's post and imagine them suffering from the feeling they are being persecuted) you are being "sadistic."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stoller
and up until his late book Sexual Excitement: Dynamics of Erotic Life he uses the word Hostility to mean "desire to hurt others" whereas aggression is the desire to make your mark in the world (e.g. it is "aggressive" to try to put the soccer ball in the other team's goal.)
By the time Excitement was written people started splitting the meaning of aggression to frame it as a bad thing (as Stoller said hostility was) and used assertion to describe the positive side of what Stoller called "aggression" and there is a short passage where Stoller talks about this change in terminology.
Stoller uses the terms "hostility" and "sadism" for phenomena that are more common than people might think. If you ever get some pleasure out of causing somebody to suffer, even in some small way (e.g. flag somebody's post and imagine them suffering from the feeling they are being persecuted) you are being "sadistic."
>The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings.
When it comes to 'let it out', it should be traced back even further to the Iliad. At least according to this [1] video by Lindybeige, the Iliad is all about forgiving, after having exhausted every other option, aka after letting it all out.
Having said that, the article seems to make a negation error. The opposite of not expressing feelings is not expressing all feelings but expressing some feelings.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ The Iliad - what is it really about?
When it comes to 'let it out', it should be traced back even further to the Iliad. At least according to this [1] video by Lindybeige, the Iliad is all about forgiving, after having exhausted every other option, aka after letting it all out.
Having said that, the article seems to make a negation error. The opposite of not expressing feelings is not expressing all feelings but expressing some feelings.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ The Iliad - what is it really about?
This piece is all over the place. And i don't give the studies any value at all. Emotions cannot be measured as such, it's far more complex than that.
The underlying emotions caused by so-called venting is the thing which is interesting. Not the venting. It's a side effect of the real emotions underneath.
How you express your feelings towards yourself and others is what this is basically about.
Anger is most often a layer around grief or sorrow, so the anger-feeling is no more than a hint to that something else is going on deeper inside you[0].
[0] https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncoverin...
The underlying emotions caused by so-called venting is the thing which is interesting. Not the venting. It's a side effect of the real emotions underneath.
How you express your feelings towards yourself and others is what this is basically about.
Anger is most often a layer around grief or sorrow, so the anger-feeling is no more than a hint to that something else is going on deeper inside you[0].
[0] https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncoverin...
Venting does work, but there's differences in how you do it. Mindlessly ranting about bullshit doesn't help. Mindfulness is the key. Feelings want to get out. Keeping them inside doesn't do any good.
Venting totally CAN work in customer support situations. You let someone pour out confusing and undirected anger/fear/frustration and then you get to work solving the underlying problem or pain point.
[deleted]
Thought experiment: two groups of people, a control group and one told "stop venting".
1. Which group achieves more success in solving their underlying problem?
2. Which group exhibits higher levels of psychological satisfaction?
1. Which group achieves more success in solving their underlying problem?
2. Which group exhibits higher levels of psychological satisfaction?
> The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings. In the “hydraulic model,” frustration and anger build up inside you and, unless periodically released in small bursts, cause a massive explosion. Starting in the 1960s, this theory was debunked by so many lab experiments that researcher Carol Tavris concluded in 1988, “It is time to put a bullet, once and for all, through the heart of the catharsis hypothesis.”
I think there is some truth to the original theory, but not all "venting" is equal. I definitely have at times experienced growing resentment towards people in my life due to not fully confronting the feelings I had about my interactions with them, but in general I don't think that angry outbursts are a healthy way to deal with this. In an ideal relationship (general term, not necessarily "romantic relationship"), I think honest but empathetic and non-judgmental conversations between the parties is often going to be the only way to truly alleviate those feelings; being able to tell someone why you were hurt by their actions without judging them and then being able to hear the same without reacting defensively is much more effective than complaining to a third party, but it requires a level of trust and understanding that is usually not going to be present for anything but close family members or long time friends. Given that, I think there is value in talking through the issues with a neutral third party, but it can be hard to avoid falling into spiral of anger and resentment, which I think is why seeing a therapist or psychologist is such a common treatment. I don't think that being able to neutrally help someone deal with their feelings of anger or resentment is some kind of superpower or anything, but like any skill, there are some methods that are more effective and some that are less effective, so having some sort of training on the matter generally is helpful. Most importantly though, they still need to build that same level of trust and understanding with the patient, which I think is the most common reason that therapy isn't able to help some people; if you're not open to the idea of learning to trust and get helped in therapy, it's going to be hard to actually resolve anything.
I think there is some truth to the original theory, but not all "venting" is equal. I definitely have at times experienced growing resentment towards people in my life due to not fully confronting the feelings I had about my interactions with them, but in general I don't think that angry outbursts are a healthy way to deal with this. In an ideal relationship (general term, not necessarily "romantic relationship"), I think honest but empathetic and non-judgmental conversations between the parties is often going to be the only way to truly alleviate those feelings; being able to tell someone why you were hurt by their actions without judging them and then being able to hear the same without reacting defensively is much more effective than complaining to a third party, but it requires a level of trust and understanding that is usually not going to be present for anything but close family members or long time friends. Given that, I think there is value in talking through the issues with a neutral third party, but it can be hard to avoid falling into spiral of anger and resentment, which I think is why seeing a therapist or psychologist is such a common treatment. I don't think that being able to neutrally help someone deal with their feelings of anger or resentment is some kind of superpower or anything, but like any skill, there are some methods that are more effective and some that are less effective, so having some sort of training on the matter generally is helpful. Most importantly though, they still need to build that same level of trust and understanding with the patient, which I think is the most common reason that therapy isn't able to help some people; if you're not open to the idea of learning to trust and get helped in therapy, it's going to be hard to actually resolve anything.
> As one researcher put it, “Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire.”
The analogy holds only if the problem is one that is in some way exacerbated (i.e. fueled by) anger (even if only by growing worse due to appropriate action not being taken due to focus on anger).
If anger is not relevant to the problem, then no. For instance, if you're angry that 2 + 2 isn't 5, venting will not make that issue escalate; 2 + 2 will not get farther away from 5 just to spite you for venting.
The analogy holds only if the problem is one that is in some way exacerbated (i.e. fueled by) anger (even if only by growing worse due to appropriate action not being taken due to focus on anger).
If anger is not relevant to the problem, then no. For instance, if you're angry that 2 + 2 isn't 5, venting will not make that issue escalate; 2 + 2 will not get farther away from 5 just to spite you for venting.
Work for what? People vent for pleasure, not as part of a plan. Clearly a more rational response to anger is to let it dissipate without losing your cool, then let your best self decide what to do.
But sometimes sharing a beer with a friend and going over the sins of those rat bastards that are fucking everything up is by God really fun. Like many pleasures, it is best in moderation. And should probably be done once you aren't so mad that you disturb your equanimity.
But sometimes sharing a beer with a friend and going over the sins of those rat bastards that are fucking everything up is by God really fun. Like many pleasures, it is best in moderation. And should probably be done once you aren't so mad that you disturb your equanimity.
> Neuroscience—specifically, neural plasticity—explains why venting reinforces negative emotions. You can think of our brain circuitry like hiking trails. The ones that get a lot of traffic get smoother and wider, with brush stomped down and pushed back.
That is so bad. It assumes that the brain uses one pathway for (different forms of) aggression and one neural mechanism for adapting behavior. It also assumes that the effect is cumulative. None of these are true.
That is so bad. It assumes that the brain uses one pathway for (different forms of) aggression and one neural mechanism for adapting behavior. It also assumes that the effect is cumulative. None of these are true.
I've noticed situations on the job where I've had little issues with management on my own, but experienced going out with drinks/coffees with gossipy venting colleagues and me internalizing their anger. This prima-facie seemed like the primary reason they did it.
If venting is instead a coalitions/tribal consensus building exercise, the psychologists might need to wait until after the revolution to retest the subject's well-being.
If venting is instead a coalitions/tribal consensus building exercise, the psychologists might need to wait until after the revolution to retest the subject's well-being.
This naturally human response thats existed for longer than commerce needs to be suppressed because it doesn’t further your career. Yup. Makes sense to me.
This article talks about "catharsis"
catharsis and processing are key to getting past something, but it also depends on if sufficient (time|mental processing) have past to allow one to not become distraught over the situation.
see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal
catharsis and processing are key to getting past something, but it also depends on if sufficient (time|mental processing) have past to allow one to not become distraught over the situation.
see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal
I have vented - about management and to management - often to give a signal that I am frustrated (managers can't read between the lines, they are humans) and to get management to realize that they are doing a bad job.
Venting is a very important social tool to account for mediocrity or lackadaisical attitude of others.
Venting is not useful if you yourself can do something about it.
Venting is a very important social tool to account for mediocrity or lackadaisical attitude of others.
Venting is not useful if you yourself can do something about it.
I think Freudian psychological ideas still have a lot of hold on people, even though in general his theories are generally not taken seriously these days. Under Freud, your emotions are almost like physical substances: you can have “too much” of them, and need to release them. “Releasing” your anger literally removes it from your body in Freudian psychology. I believe this (incorrectly) makes a lot of intuitive sense to people, as it is difficult to maintain a state of full-fledged rage and yelling. ie, you will calm down and the emotion will pass. This is more akin to a biological state: you cannot maintain any feeling indefinitely. But, I do not believe that this means that someone is releasing the emotion in the Freudian sense of the word. In practice, if you “release” your anger in this way often you are simply practicing feeling angry. In other words, you are training your mind to focus on this emotional state, and are therefore most likely increasing the amount of anger you have. You cannot “vent” all this anger because it is not a discrete substance that you can run out of. Instead, you’re behaviorally training yourself to experience anger more often: the opposite what was intended.
To the extent that people can “keep emotions bottled up inside,” I believe this simply means just not addressing a point of contention which makes you angry. The point is not to “release” the anger, but to address this issue which is causing the anger. If you’re not addressing it (either by preventing it or coming to peace with it) then you will keep experiencing the point of contention. In that narrow and non-Freudian sense, you are keeping your anger “bottled up.” But, you cannot just “release” your anger: you must address it. Really, there is no releasing anger; there is merely expressing it.
To the extent that people can “keep emotions bottled up inside,” I believe this simply means just not addressing a point of contention which makes you angry. The point is not to “release” the anger, but to address this issue which is causing the anger. If you’re not addressing it (either by preventing it or coming to peace with it) then you will keep experiencing the point of contention. In that narrow and non-Freudian sense, you are keeping your anger “bottled up.” But, you cannot just “release” your anger: you must address it. Really, there is no releasing anger; there is merely expressing it.
Catharsis(aka venting) has had a multiple studies saying that it doesn't work. Stop venting.
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 - it's even in the abstract.
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 - it's even in the abstract.
This is your 3rd post in the thread, alleging that catharsis doesn't work.
Now, personally, I don't have skin in the game, so I can't tell you whether it works or not.
But the fact that you're citing a 1967 psych study done on 9 year old kids tells me you have some kind of agenda for whatever reason. Not only are most psych studies flat out junk, but the 50s and 60s was the time of particularly egregious junk science. Remember, that's the time they still did lobotomies.
Besides, the study you cited only limits itself to cathartic aggression, which is clearly not the only case for the experience.
Now, personally, I don't have skin in the game, so I can't tell you whether it works or not.
But the fact that you're citing a 1967 psych study done on 9 year old kids tells me you have some kind of agenda for whatever reason. Not only are most psych studies flat out junk, but the 50s and 60s was the time of particularly egregious junk science. Remember, that's the time they still did lobotomies.
Besides, the study you cited only limits itself to cathartic aggression, which is clearly not the only case for the experience.
I can link you to another bunch. Because I took interest on the subject. I've been told to "vent" almost all of my life and only a few years ago I got exposed to this research.
I'm citing one of the earlier ones and there's plenty of newer studies.
My "allegations" are based in research and not empty words(unlike the accusations in your comment)
I'm citing one of the earlier ones and there's plenty of newer studies.
My "allegations" are based in research and not empty words(unlike the accusations in your comment)
It's pretty incredible how few comments in this thread are saying "huh, this is interesting, I should try this, research backs it up." That's the engineer or HN way, isn't it? (Not being sarcastic, I include myself in this). When data comes along which disproves or at least weakens a previously held position, adjust your priors and try it out.
Note: you can say "not until it's proven" but I can cite plenty of less weakly supported positions than "catharsis doesn't work" that have been enthusiastically taken up here. Consider trusting the data, at least a little bit, especially if you have a strongly emotional, but not well supported, response. This is the way (of the engineer).
Note: you can say "not until it's proven" but I can cite plenty of less weakly supported positions than "catharsis doesn't work" that have been enthusiastically taken up here. Consider trusting the data, at least a little bit, especially if you have a strongly emotional, but not well supported, response. This is the way (of the engineer).
Exactly.
Right now all data that I can find tells me to not vent, but take a time out. You know.... how we have "count to 10 before saying anything nasty".
Right now all data that I can find tells me to not vent, but take a time out. You know.... how we have "count to 10 before saying anything nasty".
Please do.
There's a possibility that I'm using the term catharsis completely wrong, so I'm not taking the study at face value.
I've never heard of people equating venting with catharsis or linking them logically.
To me, catharsis is something that occurs rarely, to some people, after a tragedy. It's sort of an emotional closure that lets you move on in peace.
There's a possibility that I'm using the term catharsis completely wrong, so I'm not taking the study at face value.
I've never heard of people equating venting with catharsis or linking them logically.
To me, catharsis is something that occurs rarely, to some people, after a tragedy. It's sort of an emotional closure that lets you move on in peace.
In psychology venting is called catharsis.
As for articles: Let's start with the one in the article.
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-13494-002
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1966-04874-001
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-00162-010
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10463283.2012.69...
https://study.com/academy/lesson/catharsis-in-psychology-the...
As for articles: Let's start with the one in the article.
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-13494-002
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1966-04874-001
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-00162-010
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10463283.2012.69...
https://study.com/academy/lesson/catharsis-in-psychology-the...
This kinda makes sense. I belong to the group of people that either vents or keeps ruminating in the head, while my wife is the opposite. I have suffered from occasional bouts of high blood pressure, while my wife doesn't face any such issues.
This is true, I suspect.
Except if you make it funny.
Funny venting -- exasperated joking -- is an enormously effective stress reduction tactic.
The key point really I guess is that you have to have gone looking for the laugh before you let it out; that is likely the therapeutic value.
"HELLO POLLLLLLYYYYY!"
Except if you make it funny.
Funny venting -- exasperated joking -- is an enormously effective stress reduction tactic.
The key point really I guess is that you have to have gone looking for the laugh before you let it out; that is likely the therapeutic value.
"HELLO POLLLLLLYYYYY!"
You just need to make sure no one is around when you vent, otherwise you look really sus.
The conclusion here presupposes that other benefits such as increased clarity of the situation and one's own feelings are not present, but in that context vacuum? Sure, I agree.
I find that when and if I vent something I usually always feel anxious about it afterwards. Like I have said something I shouldn't have.
[deleted]
I vent by dancing and swearing in the basement with the music blasting. No harm done and I feel better in the end ;)
Tamping down emotions and keeping them wrapped up has always worked well.
From the title I thought this would be about ventilation and COVID.
As it turns out, Stoicism was the way all along.
The hell it doesn’t! Let me tell you … ;-)
Unpopular opinion, I expect, but until, and unless, there is a reckoning with the replication crisis in psychology, Hacker News should treat this kind of article the same way they would treat one which takes homeopathy seriously.
I've flagged it as irrelevant and suggest you do so also.
I've flagged it as irrelevant and suggest you do so also.
serenity now!
Stop using small sample sized studies done on college campuses (n = 600, 178, 60) to push clickbait headline articles.
Sounds like saying, "Don't cry when you're sad it Doesn't Work"
How about let people do what they want? People vent because they want to know they aren't crazy or at fault. Not because they're trying to be calm or forget grievances.
Sounds like saying, "Don't cry when you're sad it Doesn't Work"
How about let people do what they want? People vent because they want to know they aren't crazy or at fault. Not because they're trying to be calm or forget grievances.
"Researchers first criticized essays written by the study participants and then told some of them to hit a punching bag. Afterward, they gave them all an opportunity to blast loud noise at the person who had insulted their writing. People in the bag-hitting groups reported experiencing more anger and were more likely to blast noise than those who did nothing."
This does sound like a selection bias and priming.
You have a group of people who are criticised. Some of those people are told to do something physically violent. All were then told to push a button to blast a noise.
Blasting a noise is a mild aggression. Hitting a punching bag is much more aggressive. It's no surprise that the group primed for violence reported more anger and was more primed to the milder form of aggression.
Also how did the people hit the bag? Did any resist and needed encouragement. Did they punch it full force or just tap it so they could get their reward and leave?
There is no way this study can draw conclusions on people who are victims of sustained physical and emotional trauma. It only proves that people who had college essays criticised are more likely to press the beep button and feel angry if they're forced to punch a punching bag.
edit - I am biased. I endured a tough childhood with bipolar parents, physical and emotional abuse was involved. I know there is a venting trap where you can get comfortable and wallow, but that's like finding a local minima, without any form of catharsis you never heal, with undirected catharsis you get stuck, but catharsis coupled with guidance and reinforcement really does help.
This does sound like a selection bias and priming.
You have a group of people who are criticised. Some of those people are told to do something physically violent. All were then told to push a button to blast a noise.
Blasting a noise is a mild aggression. Hitting a punching bag is much more aggressive. It's no surprise that the group primed for violence reported more anger and was more primed to the milder form of aggression.
Also how did the people hit the bag? Did any resist and needed encouragement. Did they punch it full force or just tap it so they could get their reward and leave?
There is no way this study can draw conclusions on people who are victims of sustained physical and emotional trauma. It only proves that people who had college essays criticised are more likely to press the beep button and feel angry if they're forced to punch a punching bag.
edit - I am biased. I endured a tough childhood with bipolar parents, physical and emotional abuse was involved. I know there is a venting trap where you can get comfortable and wallow, but that's like finding a local minima, without any form of catharsis you never heal, with undirected catharsis you get stuck, but catharsis coupled with guidance and reinforcement really does help.
> selection bias and priming
"priming" has had something of a fall from grace.
> The studies of behavioral priming that I had cited in the chapter were largely discredited in the famous replication crisis of psychology... behavioral priming research is effectively dead.
https://www.edge.org/adversarial-collaboration-daniel-kahnem...
"priming" has had something of a fall from grace.
> The studies of behavioral priming that I had cited in the chapter were largely discredited in the famous replication crisis of psychology... behavioral priming research is effectively dead.
https://www.edge.org/adversarial-collaboration-daniel-kahnem...
Dang, I read that book not long ago, the priming narrative is also pretty strong in marketing etc. I'll have to brush up on the subject before I bring it up again.
Though if priming is dead, it seems interesting the people who punched the bag seemed angrier or more vindictive afterwards according to the OP study.
Though if priming is dead, it seems interesting the people who punched the bag seemed angrier or more vindictive afterwards according to the OP study.
That's the point of the study though, right? That violent behavior begets more violence.
It may seem like a "no duh" moment, but sometimes you need to observe it in a structured format to demonstrate it.
It may seem like a "no duh" moment, but sometimes you need to observe it in a structured format to demonstrate it.
The article reads as though its author has a vested interest in protecting some status quo that people complain about a lot. Like they just can't stand hearing people vent because they hate being reminded that people are unhappy.
“What do you call your act?”
“YouTube!”
* a reference to The Aristocrats joke, and how YouTube removed publicly facing downvotes on videos. Great for concealing negative sentiment!
“YouTube!”
* a reference to The Aristocrats joke, and how YouTube removed publicly facing downvotes on videos. Great for concealing negative sentiment!
To piggyback, until psychology has a repeatable theoretical model; it's hard to take conclusions like this seriously. It needs to become married with neurology. ie We need to see this happening from a biological perspective. A small sample of surveys is not good enough to form strong conclusions. Otherwise, the results and conclusions feel arbitrary.
On the other hand, if these sorts of cathartic expressions of anger did reliably "work" at dissipating anger, I would expect it to show up in even small samples of college students? For it not to show up, either the effect only shows up in certain circumstances or it's actually not very strong.
On studies with students:
Our prefrontal cortex [which plays critical role in cognition, emotional regulation, and control of impulsive behavior] doesn't come fully online until you are about 24 (!). Given that, I take all studies done on university campuses with students younger than 24 with a good spoonful of salt.
Our prefrontal cortex [which plays critical role in cognition, emotional regulation, and control of impulsive behavior] doesn't come fully online until you are about 24 (!). Given that, I take all studies done on university campuses with students younger than 24 with a good spoonful of salt.
Like almost all analogies - it's a bad analogy.
Catharsis has a long history of study and proponents of catharsis have yet to get a "win".
Catharsis has a long history of study and proponents of catharsis have yet to get a "win".
When I bang my thumb with a hammer I yell FUUUUUCCCCKKKKKK as loud as I can, are you telling me that doesn't make the pain less? I'm almost 100% certain that form of catharsis works. It even works in reverse for me, if I'm having a moment of intense emotional strain, punching the wall (also yelling fuck as loud as possible) resets my brain. To say catharsis doesn't work seems to be a limitation of the definition of catharsis in these studies.
That's mischaracterization of catharsis.
As for releasing intense emotional strain - you're more likely to lash out.
Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead? Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
As for releasing intense emotional strain - you're more likely to lash out.
Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead? Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
> Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
Presumably the wall-punching and tendency toward other physical/emotional abuses are tied to one or more underlying common causes.
That is, people shouldn't be told to punch a wall (for cartharsis) or even necessarily not to do so (because it'll make you abusive), but those for whom that is a temptation or tendency should seek assistance to uncover and address the root causes.
Presumably the wall-punching and tendency toward other physical/emotional abuses are tied to one or more underlying common causes.
That is, people shouldn't be told to punch a wall (for cartharsis) or even necessarily not to do so (because it'll make you abusive), but those for whom that is a temptation or tendency should seek assistance to uncover and address the root causes.
I guess that's my point, how do you disentangle the need for cathartic outburst from the negative connotations and actual perhaps small positive impact of the cathartic outburst? Is practicing karate and punching boards on a schedule ok?
I feel like it's different when it's a scheduled, planned release, rather than losing control in the moment.
Like, my overall emotional regulation is way better on the weeks when I've been more active, with cycling, lane swimming, taking walks, etc. And I'm certainly not doing those things "in anger", but it's still absolutely a kind of release.
Of course, the article is mostly talking about venting as a scheduled, planned thing too, so I don't know.
Like, my overall emotional regulation is way better on the weeks when I've been more active, with cycling, lane swimming, taking walks, etc. And I'm certainly not doing those things "in anger", but it's still absolutely a kind of release.
Of course, the article is mostly talking about venting as a scheduled, planned thing too, so I don't know.
Have you had what you would consider an extreme event which didn't ripple beyond a need to maintain regular exercise? One time I was upset because my now wife decided to spend time with friends instead of with me on the last day before I drove off to grad school across the country. I rode my bike around a large lake (not something I would normally do). Is that somehow doing it wrong? It seems like the whole issue is "don't rock the boat or people will look at you sideways and make you an outcast". Works fine to be and express yourself in a safe place (accepting people/sound-proof walls), even if its peakish at times, just my experience.
I have been going through some significant personal issues over the past year, and finding productive outlets for processing those feelings/emotions/etc was indeed the genesis for getting more serious about a fitness routine.
But now that I'm there, it's clear that this really is a helpful long-term pattern to follow for mental well-being, quite apart from being now in my mid-30s and needing to actually be intentional about staying in shape.
But now that I'm there, it's clear that this really is a helpful long-term pattern to follow for mental well-being, quite apart from being now in my mid-30s and needing to actually be intentional about staying in shape.
> That's mischaracterization of catharsis.
Please explain? Pain is both processed physically and psychologically in my experience. Is the suggestion that if I feel pain psychologically I'm abnormal? Catharsis is a name given to a human action as old as time.
> Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
I would be curious to see the studies, perhaps people who lash out are more likely to have issues worth punching a wall over? All sorts of biases could come into play.
> Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead?
The times I've punched a wall are too few to derive meaningful statistics vs other methods of unwinding.
Please explain? Pain is both processed physically and psychologically in my experience. Is the suggestion that if I feel pain psychologically I'm abnormal? Catharsis is a name given to a human action as old as time.
> Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
I would be curious to see the studies, perhaps people who lash out are more likely to have issues worth punching a wall over? All sorts of biases could come into play.
> Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead?
The times I've punched a wall are too few to derive meaningful statistics vs other methods of unwinding.
Yelling at the time of physical pain is plain reaction, it's not catharsis... specially not in this context. It's not a violent release of pent up emotions.
I think you missed an opportunity for a "find relief".
Bad science reporting and Slate go hand in hand.
Clickbait is what they do.
Clickbait is what they do.
Quite frankly, almost all psychological experiments are nonsense. After the replication crisis and other things (e.g. p-hacking) I simply can't be bothered to take the field seriously. I am beyond mad at the intellectual dishonesty many sciences have committed, social psychology in particular. I couldn't care less if it's an emergent failing of science. First principles were not followed, too few people cared, I can't ever trust the fields again that took part in this.
I'll stick to forms of science that actually know something worthwhile. And when I need to intuit anything about human behavior, then I know that I am on my own.
With that said, here's my criteria for a study I'm willing to take seriously:
* n = 10000
* The effect size is big
* It's measured in at least on western, one eastern and one other culture
* It's independently reproduced by at least 2 other independent universities/research institutes
There are probably another few things, but I think you get the spirit.
I'll stick to forms of science that actually know something worthwhile. And when I need to intuit anything about human behavior, then I know that I am on my own.
With that said, here's my criteria for a study I'm willing to take seriously:
* n = 10000
* The effect size is big
* It's measured in at least on western, one eastern and one other culture
* It's independently reproduced by at least 2 other independent universities/research institutes
There are probably another few things, but I think you get the spirit.
I get the downvotes, I understand. I stand by it. I did a 3 year bachelor in it and some select master courses. There are still some theories that I use and find useful (self-determination theory and the five factor model if personality). I use those theories to make my life better. I use the theories of clinical psychology in very rare cases to tell people that a conversation with the doctor might help and won’t do any harm (in The Netherlands at least, in my experience). I can’t rely on clinical theories more than that though because the science of it is too vague.
Relying on psychological theories becomes problematic when the results are like normal studies (e.g. n = 100). A benign example: I am sure that the overjustification effect and self-determination theory have a link. In both bodies of literature I have never seen that link being investigated. If it would be investigated then there is a chance that the effect might be rebranded to something else in the name of precision. IMO it seems to be used too often as a euphemism to carve out your own research space.
Most cognitive biases are not substantiated enough to be relied upon as psychological theories (there was a good HN post about this as well). And for me, that’s problematic and something to get angry about because media but also university professors tell with too much confidence that these ideas are true and are the best knowledge we currently have. I found personally, that I can better rely on how humans work by using my own mind (a combination of common sense and experience for edge cases).
Science should be about uncovering what is true, as best as it possibly can. When it comes to the field of psychology, I feel that spirit has been mostly lost.
Feel free to disagree, but if you do then I ask you: have you tried to rely on psychological theories to improve your life and take their advice to heart? If not, then you might want to give it a try. And I hope that it has a more positive effect on you than it did on me. The effect on me has an amazing silver lining but ultimately it is very bitter sweet. Contrast this with computer science which was painful but ultimately delightfully sweet because most of what was taught can be programmed into a computer and is therefore true (at least, true on some level).
Relying on psychological theories becomes problematic when the results are like normal studies (e.g. n = 100). A benign example: I am sure that the overjustification effect and self-determination theory have a link. In both bodies of literature I have never seen that link being investigated. If it would be investigated then there is a chance that the effect might be rebranded to something else in the name of precision. IMO it seems to be used too often as a euphemism to carve out your own research space.
Most cognitive biases are not substantiated enough to be relied upon as psychological theories (there was a good HN post about this as well). And for me, that’s problematic and something to get angry about because media but also university professors tell with too much confidence that these ideas are true and are the best knowledge we currently have. I found personally, that I can better rely on how humans work by using my own mind (a combination of common sense and experience for edge cases).
Science should be about uncovering what is true, as best as it possibly can. When it comes to the field of psychology, I feel that spirit has been mostly lost.
Feel free to disagree, but if you do then I ask you: have you tried to rely on psychological theories to improve your life and take their advice to heart? If not, then you might want to give it a try. And I hope that it has a more positive effect on you than it did on me. The effect on me has an amazing silver lining but ultimately it is very bitter sweet. Contrast this with computer science which was painful but ultimately delightfully sweet because most of what was taught can be programmed into a computer and is therefore true (at least, true on some level).
I hate it when oft times, a completely unrelated picture is inserted into a blog post with seemingly no relation to the actual content of said post.
what a selfish mindset
venting produce effects, it make the reader understand other people's feeling without knowing them
if makes them learn about people and their frustrations
ultimately, it gives them the opportunity to come up with a direct or indirect response to them
venting produce effects, it make the reader understand other people's feeling without knowing them
if makes them learn about people and their frustrations
ultimately, it gives them the opportunity to come up with a direct or indirect response to them
There's a saying "the squeeky wheel get's the grease".
People usually do what works for them. thats exactly why we still see fist fights, disinformation, yelling, racisim, war, complaining, etc. It does what it was intended to do. Otherwise, people would do something else.
People usually do what works for them. thats exactly why we still see fist fights, disinformation, yelling, racisim, war, complaining, etc. It does what it was intended to do. Otherwise, people would do something else.
A leaky cauldron gets thrown out, is the counterargument here.
If you want to be angrier or as angry - catharsis is great.
If you want to be angrier or as angry - catharsis is great.
Thats why I love these types of sayings!
It doesnt always get grease, does it!
It depends on the usefulness of the source of the squeek! For me it translates as 'be worth helping'.
This even works for your couldron, is it worth fixing?
It doesnt always get grease, does it!
It depends on the usefulness of the source of the squeek! For me it translates as 'be worth helping'.
This even works for your couldron, is it worth fixing?
Whoops accidentally submitted to HN instead of LinkedIn.
To stop venting would mean to stop going to therapy, lol
1) Venting about frustrations by talking them through with someone who will listen. This forces people to put their frustrations into words and elucidate the narrative as they put it into words. This can not only help people identify their feelings and work through them, but it also forces people to decide what a mature response would be. Once you start venting to someone you know, especially someone you respect, you have an incentive to present a mature interpretation and approach to the situation. This can help immensely.
2) The other group tends to want to avoid the mature response part, and instead wants to seek sympathy and confirmation for their frustrations. They deliberately avoid discussing these issues with respected peers or mentors because they know their response is unhealthy and not a good look. They embrace online forums like Reddit and Twitter where they're free to give one-sided stories without fear of their peers calling them out for exaggerating or stretching the details. This type of venting doesn't solve anything because they don't really want solutions in the first place. There's something rewarding or perhaps freeing about hunkering down in the victim role and being showered with sympathy from random internet strangers.
I haven't seen any reason to believe the first type of venting (discussing with respected peers, seeking feedback and solutions in the process) is anything but helpful. However, the latter type of venting (online venting to collect sympathy) does seem to be quite damaging from my limited experience. There's something dangerous about going online to bond with others and seek personal affirmation in a way that's fueled by venting frustrations and victimizations. Once inside of those circles, there's an incentive to continue bringing more frustrations and more victimizations to the table to keep the bonding and community contact flowing.
The story in the article about going to a park to scream together raises my red flags as such a situation: It becomes an in-group thing where you need to adopt an outward appearance of being very frustrated to fit in with the other people in the group. Not a good incentive for improving the situation.