Turo Requires a Driver's License Number and Credit Card to Show Full Price
135 comments
Last week I went through the tedium of providing all of the requisite information when trying to book a 2014 Toyota Prius for 1 day @ $50.40 through Turo. On the final step of the reservation flow, Turo revealed an additional $50.40 service fee. Seeing the total price double didn't sit well. I promptly exited the reservation flow and deleted my account.
I agree with your sentiment - if the app shared the service fee prior to the final step of the booking flow, I may have still reserved the car. Even at a total of $100.80, the price was still less than other nearby options.
I agree with your sentiment - if the app shared the service fee prior to the final step of the booking flow, I may have still reserved the car. Even at a total of $100.80, the price was still less than other nearby options.
My trick with their system is to just look at every car, click through to the final receipt screen and then go back to find the cheapest one. It's a bit tedious and deceptive to the customer to present variable fee at the last part of the checkout process. Probably the worst modern "dark pattern" that I hope regulators take a look at.
The same happens with hotels and "resort fees", especially in places like Las Vegas.
Marriott was sued and agreed to start showing mandatory “resort fees” (a made up term for “the hidden part of the price”).
In reality they settled the suit and then told the Pennsylvania AG to eat shit, they still hide the fees but now there is at least a checkbox to show the fees included.
One of the funnier things about scammy pricing schemes and American misunderstanding of laws. Ask anyone in the country if they are aware of “false advertising” and they’ll probably tell you it’s a pretty serious crime when in reality companies are pretty much only encumbered by civil law and even then they can avoid responsibility by playing a shell game, a la Johnson & Johnson’s sham bankruptcy, while criminal statutes are pretty much just for poor people.
In reality they settled the suit and then told the Pennsylvania AG to eat shit, they still hide the fees but now there is at least a checkbox to show the fees included.
One of the funnier things about scammy pricing schemes and American misunderstanding of laws. Ask anyone in the country if they are aware of “false advertising” and they’ll probably tell you it’s a pretty serious crime when in reality companies are pretty much only encumbered by civil law and even then they can avoid responsibility by playing a shell game, a la Johnson & Johnson’s sham bankruptcy, while criminal statutes are pretty much just for poor people.
its not just hidden price, I've stayed at many hotels that are transparent about their resort fee. IIRC it's a bit of a tax dodge, they're moving the taxable price of the room over to a fee that's not technically for the lodging.
This is one area America needs to legislate which I am usually against.
There is no excuse but sleezy marketing to not show what something costs.
I'd go far even to make sure every price sticker is regulated and should include final sales price. That means, all taxes, all tips, everything. There is only one problem I see – sales taxes are state dependent so it puts a lot of burden on ecommerce/online stores to 1) Determine where the customer is from 2) Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure.
Tips should be made illegal and employers should fairly compensate their workers.
There is no excuse but sleezy marketing to not show what something costs.
I'd go far even to make sure every price sticker is regulated and should include final sales price. That means, all taxes, all tips, everything. There is only one problem I see – sales taxes are state dependent so it puts a lot of burden on ecommerce/online stores to 1) Determine where the customer is from 2) Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure.
Tips should be made illegal and employers should fairly compensate their workers.
> it puts a lot of burden on ecommerce/online stores to 1) Determine where the customer is from 2) Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure.
Of course it can be done, because they are already doing it in the final checkout. They just need to reveal the number earlier in the process. If they have to ask for a location to do that, just say so --- e.g. "We need your zip code to show you the final price including tax"
Of course it can be done, because they are already doing it in the final checkout. They just need to reveal the number earlier in the process. If they have to ask for a location to do that, just say so --- e.g. "We need your zip code to show you the final price including tax"
>> Tips should be made illegal
That's about as dystopian as possible. Telling people that they cannot just hand money to other people might be the end of the entire concept of charity.
That's about as dystopian as possible. Telling people that they cannot just hand money to other people might be the end of the entire concept of charity.
Ok fair point, what needs to made illegal is the paying-below-minimum-wage to recoup it from Tips. Furthermore, I guess I want to remove the expectation of Tips from our culture. Maybe legislation is too strong but I love this aspect of society where Tips are truly optional.
In America, we have a situation where I’ve seen waiters put on a facade of niceness which is so fake, and if you don’t tip, you’re an asshole. This implicit guilt needs to be made uncool.
I tried tipping room maker in a Hotel in Japan and they promptly refused and handed me the cash.
In America, we have a situation where I’ve seen waiters put on a facade of niceness which is so fake, and if you don’t tip, you’re an asshole. This implicit guilt needs to be made uncool.
I tried tipping room maker in a Hotel in Japan and they promptly refused and handed me the cash.
OTOH, it does seem a bit out of control. Now, when I go to Burgerville (a regional fast food chain in the PNW), the POS system asks me to enter a tip. Makes me say "No tip" if I don't want to. This is for a transaction that involves no service -- I stand there, they hand me a bag with food in it, I leave.
It's a bit of a dark pattern. First it makes you actively say "No I don't want to tip for this" and then I gurantee plenty of people have that nagging thought in the back of their head that the food they get may be different depending on if they tip. After all, the tip is before you get anything.
It's a bit of a dark pattern. First it makes you actively say "No I don't want to tip for this" and then I gurantee plenty of people have that nagging thought in the back of their head that the food they get may be different depending on if they tip. After all, the tip is before you get anything.
Yeah I get that when I pick up a pizza at the store (rather than having it delivered). The system asks for a tip amount, which I decline. It's there because the system also handles tips for the delivery orders, and there is no separate flow for paying for a carry-out order.
I always tip, generously, for delivered food or table service. But I don't tip for an employee to simply hand me a carry-out order.
I always tip, generously, for delivered food or table service. But I don't tip for an employee to simply hand me a carry-out order.
I feel so awkward when not tipping at POS that I pretty much avoid carryouts from such places. I will happily drive to McDonalds.
I wrote a more flowery version of exactly that in an email I sent to Burgerville. I.e. "I don't like being guilted into tipping for otherwise not tip-worthy service, so if you continue to do this, then as much as I like you're food I'll choose someone else who doesn't make me feel this way."
Tips should be optional. The US assumption of "everyone tips so we can pay waiters $2.13 an hour [0]" is a disgrace.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
But tips aren't charity. They're even classified as income in tax codes.
Let alone - tips are very often not "optional"
Tips are literally a variable price co-pay for a service.
Let alone - tips are very often not "optional"
Tips are literally a variable price co-pay for a service.
Most of Europe operate just fine without tips.
Let's be fair - most of Europe a tip is really optional. No one is depending on tips as the source of their income.
> Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure.
Not only can it be done, it is done. Companies don't have to brew up their own sales tax calculators, there are providers of that. Just enter the address, get the tax rate.
Not only can it be done, it is done. Companies don't have to brew up their own sales tax calculators, there are providers of that. Just enter the address, get the tax rate.
And, of course, during checkout process they would charge you correct sales tax. So obviously they have this information and can easily use it in marketing pages.
Sales taxes are city dependent. Even the county can get in on the fun
Sales tax is worse than state dependent, they are city dependent.
State, county, and city - and separate "transit" taxes for county and city. And then most locations have a use tax which may be different from the sales tax. It sounds complicated, but I had to work on a project in India during the GST transition, and came to appreciate the relative simplicity of the US system.
I share your sentiment, but I'm not sure there are any legislators I trust to understand or regulate dark patterns effectively.
https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a...
https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a...
Marriott has settled a lawsuit over similar pricing "dark patterns": https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott...
> Among other provisions, the agreement requires Marriott to prominently disclose the total price of a hotel stay, including room rate and all other mandatory fees, on the first page of its booking website as part of the total room rate.
Seems to mainly be a matter of enforcement, it's probably worth contacting your state AG with something deceptive like this. Hard to expect them to take action on something they don't know about!
https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a...
Marriott has settled a lawsuit over similar pricing "dark patterns": https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott...
> Among other provisions, the agreement requires Marriott to prominently disclose the total price of a hotel stay, including room rate and all other mandatory fees, on the first page of its booking website as part of the total room rate.
Seems to mainly be a matter of enforcement, it's probably worth contacting your state AG with something deceptive like this. Hard to expect them to take action on something they don't know about!
As everyone already knows, a large percentage of "major brand" hotels are owned and operated independently (like a franchised restaurant, for example).
If you ever get a Marriott that tries to add fees that you didn't expect, call up corporate Marriott and complain about a violation of their legal settlement regarding hidden fees. They will absolutely lay the hammer down on the hotel and you'll end up with credits far in excess of the attempted hidden fee ;)
If you ever get a Marriott that tries to add fees that you didn't expect, call up corporate Marriott and complain about a violation of their legal settlement regarding hidden fees. They will absolutely lay the hammer down on the hotel and you'll end up with credits far in excess of the attempted hidden fee ;)
Ya, I have much more faith in the courts to discern fair deployments of dark patterns than I do any legislative body.
Really? They sure successfully nailed airlines on the practice a decade ago. [1]
It doesn't take a world-leading regulator to say "it is an unfair and deceptive business practice not to list the total price in a search result."
I think a regulator may be able to handle this one.
[1] https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
It doesn't take a world-leading regulator to say "it is an unfair and deceptive business practice not to list the total price in a search result."
I think a regulator may be able to handle this one.
[1] https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
For all the (somewhat legitimate) cracks about airline add-on fees for things like checked baggage (for non-status flyers), airlines are actually one of the better travel categories in terms of fully disclosing costs up front. Hotels and car rentals generally will before you press the confirm button but often don't up-front--and this makes comparison shopping difficult because the patterns aren't consistent.
Definitely, because they were super forced by the DOT under 49 U.S. Code § 41712. [1,2,3]
[edit to include text:]
[2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712
[3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84
[edit to include text:]
The Department considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier [...] that states a price for such air transportation [...] to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the carrier...
[...] Although charges included within the single total price listed (e.g., government taxes) may be stated separately or through links or “pop ups” on websites that display the total price, such charges may not be false or misleading, may not be displayed prominently, may not be presented in the same or larger size as the total price, and must provide cost information on a per passenger basis that accurately reflects the cost of the item covered by the charge.
[2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712
[3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84
"Not knowing the price of something until it's time to pay for it" is about as American as apple pie. From retail stores, where shelf prices don't show tax, to your cellphone/cable bills with a half dozen opaque fees added on to the quoted monthly rate, to the hospital, where literally nobody providing the service knows what it will end up costing. Good luck getting rid of this mentality--it's permanently baked into our business and consumer cultures.
Dark patterns in general, yes, but I'd think "The displayed price must include all fees" would be easy to write into law.
I think people would find ways to partially skirt the law using formulas.
There are some legitimate uses for formula pricing, e.g., rent a U-Haul with a per-mile cost, or a cell phone bill with a per GB data cost, or a per-user SAAS model.
I imagine a dark pattern for the "resort fee" might be a complicated formula described in words in size 6 font at the bottom of the page if you took the time to read the footnote.
There are some legitimate uses for formula pricing, e.g., rent a U-Haul with a per-mile cost, or a cell phone bill with a per GB data cost, or a per-user SAAS model.
I imagine a dark pattern for the "resort fee" might be a complicated formula described in words in size 6 font at the bottom of the page if you took the time to read the footnote.
It's actually illegal in Europe (EU) to NOT display the final price, and the price shown on the search in Airbnb or airline searches is the final price.
Specially because in EU all the prices shown in stores/everywhere is the final price, with VAT, service, tip, etc, etc...
Specially because in EU all the prices shown in stores/everywhere is the final price, with VAT, service, tip, etc, etc...
What if the final price depends on your entity status as a purchaser? E.g. delivery city, whether you are a business or an individual. Taxes and shipping trivially depends on that.
The website needs to include VAT in the price if they sell to consumers, and can show prices without VAT if they sell only to businesses. VAT depends only on country, so that is not as difficult to calculate as sales tax in the US.
Some companies (eg. Alternate) have different websites for consumers and business customers, other companies (eg. Conrad) allow you to toggle between pricing modes (with tax or without).
The price is usually shown without shipping, but there's usually a little button "calculate shipping prices" where you can type your zip code and then they show the shipping prices.
Some companies (eg. Alternate) have different websites for consumers and business customers, other companies (eg. Conrad) allow you to toggle between pricing modes (with tax or without).
The price is usually shown without shipping, but there's usually a little button "calculate shipping prices" where you can type your zip code and then they show the shipping prices.
Is that for properties in EU or when you book from EU?
"Understand" in the sense of the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Or, in this case, his/her campaign contributions.
Or, in this case, his/her campaign contributions.
I believe advertising a false price is already illegal. "On the internet" doesn't change that, so afaik no new legislation is needed, only some minimal will to enforce what is already on the books.
Despite the shiny new veneer created by computers, this is a very old dark pattern called "fraud". While there are definitely shortcomings and failures of regulators, I'd say we're better off expecting them to generally crack down on fraud rather than not.
DC is currently suing Doordash for this sort of deceptive pricing arguing that it violates existing laws. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087988691/washington-d
It’s primarily a US problem if you don’t trust them let them copy and paste it from somewhere else…
Ryanair has been dicked a decade ago by this in EU
What was the fee putatively for? Was it a cleaning fee that would have been less per day on a longer rental? It doesn't seem right to call something a "service fee" if it doubles the total purchase price.
Engaging at any level with the idea that the fee is for any purpose other than lying about price in advertisements is giving it too much credit.
From a customer’s point of view, absolutely.
But fees are many times also used to avoid or evade taxes and royalties. For example, resort fees can be used by hotels to avoid paying royalties to the franchisor.
There is never any good excuse to hide or gatekeep the total price from a customer though.
But fees are many times also used to avoid or evade taxes and royalties. For example, resort fees can be used by hotels to avoid paying royalties to the franchisor.
There is never any good excuse to hide or gatekeep the total price from a customer though.
You're right. I was thinking about Airbnb, which has cleaning fees that can be pretty hefty on one-night rentals. And those are understandable because someone needs to come in and change the sheets/towels, wash dishes, etc.
But there's no "bedsheets" analog for a car rental. Yes, it needs to be washed, but I imagine most renters of Priuses don't actually care if the car hasn't been washed in a few days/weeks.
But there's no "bedsheets" analog for a car rental. Yes, it needs to be washed, but I imagine most renters of Priuses don't actually care if the car hasn't been washed in a few days/weeks.
I agree that that service should be considered in the price of the rental, but I disagree that it should be separate from the rest of the rental fee. It's required, and it's only separated out to make the rental look cheaper, right up until you get hit with that fee.
>it's only separated out to make the rental look cheaper, right up until you get hit with that fee
That's certainly one reason. But it can also make sense to have a one-time fee that's independent of the duration of the rental. Cleaning a room is the most obvious example. But there are other more or less fixed overheads that are largely independent of the length of time something is rented.
If you're renting out just about anything, would you prefer seven 1-day rentals or a one week rental?
That's certainly one reason. But it can also make sense to have a one-time fee that's independent of the duration of the rental. Cleaning a room is the most obvious example. But there are other more or less fixed overheads that are largely independent of the length of time something is rented.
If you're renting out just about anything, would you prefer seven 1-day rentals or a one week rental?
That's not quite true. The car has to be inspected and gotten ready for rental.
Consider the amount of work involved for the owner in renting one car to 30 people each for one day and one car to one person for 30 days and you'll see the difference.
Consider the amount of work involved for the owner in renting one car to 30 people each for one day and one car to one person for 30 days and you'll see the difference.
> those are understandable because someone needs to
Nope. The rest of this sentence doesn't even matter: if someone needs to do something, that's a reason to charge for it, but not a reason to hide the price.
Nope. The rest of this sentence doesn't even matter: if someone needs to do something, that's a reason to charge for it, but not a reason to hide the price.
I'm waiting for the "free" car rental where the actual cost is wrapped up in fees.
iirc they add insurance cost at check out, but I've mostly used GetAround lately.
The thing that bothers me the most is that the price of the rental is literally just the sum of the fees. And they are intentionally hiding parts of the cost. It's not just a dark pattern, it's an outright lie.
Turo's service fee feels very random and inconsistent.
I was looking at renting a car in LA for a day and the service fee was the same price as renting the car, across most of the cars. If I changed the query to be a two day rental, then the service fee dropped to 1/10th the 1day price.
In a Different city, though, even the 1 day rental doesn't have such a large fee.
I was looking at renting a car in LA for a day and the service fee was the same price as renting the car, across most of the cars. If I changed the query to be a two day rental, then the service fee dropped to 1/10th the 1day price.
In a Different city, though, even the 1 day rental doesn't have such a large fee.
This is basically Uber Eats' business model. They sell you on the price of food as you would get it from the store, then they tack on a service fee, the driver tip, a driver fee, etc... The cost of the meal from selection to checkout doubles.
Airlines were notorious for these practices (super low advertised price followed by a dozen surcharges at checkout), then a single law made them declare the full final ticket price up front for all reservations. The result – airlines are happy because all their competitors have to abide by the law as well and so everyone is on a level playing field, and customers are happy because their experience is infinitely better.
This law should really apply across the board for all purchases.
This law should really apply across the board for all purchases.
Agreed, and it should include the prices in brick and mortar stores. There is no reason not to print the price and the price+tax together.
Tax is predictable and consistent, at least.
In Canada, Airbnb recently settled[^1] a class-action lawsuit for their illegal practice of "double-ticketing"[^2], that is, showing one price on their marketing page and another significantly marked up price at checkout time.
[1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbnb-settles-6-million-cla...
[2] https://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/0...
[1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbnb-settles-6-million-cla...
[2] https://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/0...
Airbnb, DoorDash, Turo and others need to stop with the outright price lying.
I’m a repeat customer let me turn on “true price” option somewhere because it makes me want to use your products LESS.
Jfc product manager of growth how do you live with yourself.
I’m a repeat customer let me turn on “true price” option somewhere because it makes me want to use your products LESS.
Jfc product manager of growth how do you live with yourself.
The egregious thing with Turo is that it even says "Total price" explicitly that doesn't match the daily price. And STILL tacks on more fees
Even most ticket resellers now let you view the prices with fees (although I find the setting clears after each new search).
I have had good experiences renting on business trips with Turo itself. I wanted more exotic cars than what I might get at Hertz so created an account and all that. It's true the price goes up substantially from the originally stated rate though, maybe I didn't quite see the discrepancy because I had already created an account.
My biggest gripe with Turo, and the reason I don't use it much, is it's really inconvenient, even though you book through the app. For example, I land at SFO. With Turo turns out to get the stated rate you need to go to the car's location, which ime is usually some inconvenient neighborhood where the owner lives. SO it's kind of weird Lyfting to some neighborhood to get a car. Otherwise it's like an extra $80-150 to have the car waiting at SFO (or whatever airport). Then returning is the same ordeal.
I am a bit used to the dark pattern in the app they and places like AirBnB employ, for better or worse I'm used to it, and so never really get my hopes up until I see the final checkout price right before hitting "Reserve" (which adds friction because the fees are never the same across cars/homes). One thing that I think would make Turo viable for business travelers like me in the future would be a much more frictionless delivery process, perhaps acquiring a rental area at airports like the regular car rental companies have and not adding giant fees to avoid inconvenience. Put the onus on the person providing the car to have the car at the expected place at the expected time.
My biggest gripe with Turo, and the reason I don't use it much, is it's really inconvenient, even though you book through the app. For example, I land at SFO. With Turo turns out to get the stated rate you need to go to the car's location, which ime is usually some inconvenient neighborhood where the owner lives. SO it's kind of weird Lyfting to some neighborhood to get a car. Otherwise it's like an extra $80-150 to have the car waiting at SFO (or whatever airport). Then returning is the same ordeal.
I am a bit used to the dark pattern in the app they and places like AirBnB employ, for better or worse I'm used to it, and so never really get my hopes up until I see the final checkout price right before hitting "Reserve" (which adds friction because the fees are never the same across cars/homes). One thing that I think would make Turo viable for business travelers like me in the future would be a much more frictionless delivery process, perhaps acquiring a rental area at airports like the regular car rental companies have and not adding giant fees to avoid inconvenience. Put the onus on the person providing the car to have the car at the expected place at the expected time.
They used to have a lot near LAX that sort of functioned as you describe, not sure if that's still true.
I'm a bit of a car guy, so I thought it might be worth trying Turo.....however even in larger areas I would rarely see anything reasonable to rent, and even the base cars seem a bit pricey. Then I read a few horror stories of getting scammed on Turo (via pet fees or other vague airBnb style scams) and running into Kafkaesque "modern customer support" from Turo which scared me off for good.
While I absolutely loathe dark patterns, I just wanted to share one thought.
They may have to "add" you to their insurance plan or carrier before renting you the car. That infuriating service fee might actually be personalized for your driving record.
As for the credit card, it is user-hostile at best to demand this before being able to see a price. I wish there was an easier way to complain about businesses that openly violate terms of the standard merchant agreements. Imagine a physical store requiring you to swipe a credit card before being able to enter. Amazon had to allow for customers without phones or credit cards at their "Go" stores for compliance reasons.
They may have to "add" you to their insurance plan or carrier before renting you the car. That infuriating service fee might actually be personalized for your driving record.
As for the credit card, it is user-hostile at best to demand this before being able to see a price. I wish there was an easier way to complain about businesses that openly violate terms of the standard merchant agreements. Imagine a physical store requiring you to swipe a credit card before being able to enter. Amazon had to allow for customers without phones or credit cards at their "Go" stores for compliance reasons.
Any list price that excludes additional fees should be shown as "Base price" or, better yet, explicitly list what types of additional fees have yet to be added to make up the final price.
For variable fees, you could show a range of prices to show the minimum and maximum possible, or show the base price with an approximate or estimated additional fee.
There are LOTS of ways to be open and clear with the customer about these things without being deceptive.
For variable fees, you could show a range of prices to show the minimum and maximum possible, or show the base price with an approximate or estimated additional fee.
There are LOTS of ways to be open and clear with the customer about these things without being deceptive.
Common misconception that may vary state to sate - insurers insure the car, not the driver, and a lot of the follow-on driver specific fees can be fine-print disputed if you really want to go to the mat over it.
To go against all the negative comments here - I love Turo and use it all the time. The comment regarding money laundering doesn't even make sense - Turo charges for insurance and fees, it would be an expensive way to launder money. The fact that you don't see the final price right away is annoying but not uncommon. It's usually way cheaper than traditional car rental companies, anyway.
But, you can decline the extra insurances through a traditional car rental company, even if the salespeople hassle you to buy them or insist on seeing your actual liability (!) card (which is not proof of rental coverage anyway.) It doesn't sound like you can decline these coverages through Turo, which (if truly mandatory) would make them deceptive, especially if they are generating profit through them.
You can completely decline coverage on Turo for a car. They give you a big fat warning to be careful as your insurance may not cover a Turo car (which is true for some providers), and you're SOL if something happens.
Depending on the price of the car, they may take a 2k deposit for an accident, but that's pretty normal. It's returned to you once the car is returned.
Depending on the price of the car, they may take a 2k deposit for an accident, but that's pretty normal. It's returned to you once the car is returned.
In what world is a $2,000 deposit to rent a car normal? I’ve never deposited north of $300. Ever. In any country in the world. Including when I decline coverage. Including when I present local identification to the branch (which flags theft risk).
What a weird thing to normalize given how exclusionary it is to the vast majority of the world’s population. Though I guess we are talking about car rental via a smartphone, so we’re already somewhere on the exclusionary spectrum.
Rental companies figured out the actuarial model for what they do some time ago. If Turo is hitting you with $2,000 to take the vehicle, they have no clue how to model risk and are probably arrogant about their approach compared to the staid, boring incumbents. Either that or they just don’t have enough volume to spread the risk. Or are you renting a $250k vehicle every time?
What a weird thing to normalize given how exclusionary it is to the vast majority of the world’s population. Though I guess we are talking about car rental via a smartphone, so we’re already somewhere on the exclusionary spectrum.
Rental companies figured out the actuarial model for what they do some time ago. If Turo is hitting you with $2,000 to take the vehicle, they have no clue how to model risk and are probably arrogant about their approach compared to the staid, boring incumbents. Either that or they just don’t have enough volume to spread the risk. Or are you renting a $250k vehicle every time?
It's an owner enabled option. The car owner requests to Turo that they would like Turo to hold a X$ deposit in lieu of accident coverage. I believe the X$ pays for the driver's / Turo's insurance deductible in the event you crash it and refuse to run it through your insurance. I've rented about 10 cars on Turo over the years including when it was called RelayRides and I've been asked to do it once, but it was for an older Porsche.
Also, if you want to see that deposit, go to any car rental place in america and offer to pay with debit card or cash and see what they'll hassle you with. Hertz requires requires a credit card. Enterprise requires proof of a returning flight. Dollar requires a credit check.
Also, if you want to see that deposit, go to any car rental place in america and offer to pay with debit card or cash and see what they'll hassle you with. Hertz requires requires a credit card. Enterprise requires proof of a returning flight. Dollar requires a credit check.
The $2k deposit is only for really expensive cars.
It's an interesting dark pattern...
I understand when products are compared directly: Uber vs. Lyft, Uber Eats vs. Grubhub, etc. Often consumers are looking at the exact same product and purely deciding based on price. I can see what a company would add that dark pattern to squeeze every dollar they can get.
AirBnb, Turo? I don't get it, are folks comparing the purchases directly to "other" products?
I understand when products are compared directly: Uber vs. Lyft, Uber Eats vs. Grubhub, etc. Often consumers are looking at the exact same product and purely deciding based on price. I can see what a company would add that dark pattern to squeeze every dollar they can get.
AirBnb, Turo? I don't get it, are folks comparing the purchases directly to "other" products?
My haphazard guess from zero evidence: they may have ran some A/B testing on their platform that compared showing full price vs hiding the fees, and have come away with the conclusion that their conversion rate is x% higher when deploying the dark pattern. What such studies fail to measure is the cost of eroding brand trust, but this is just one possible scenario.
> AirBnb, Turo? I don't get it, are folks comparing the purchases directly to "other" products?
Sometimes to hotels and car rental chains. But also people glance at these sites to ballpark the cost of a vacation, get their hearts set, and come back later (maybe after booking flights) and only then see the full price.
Sometimes to hotels and car rental chains. But also people glance at these sites to ballpark the cost of a vacation, get their hearts set, and come back later (maybe after booking flights) and only then see the full price.
Never used them though definitely wanted to based on much more interesting vehicle choices.
I swear they're reliant on customer good luck and ignorance. There is no way to get insurance for these, and most people think their personal insurance covers it. In fact, it's super hard to get the correct info out of your own insurance company and you have to go up a level on support before you get the bad news that if anything went wrong you're not covered and you'd be royally screwed
I swear they're reliant on customer good luck and ignorance. There is no way to get insurance for these, and most people think their personal insurance covers it. In fact, it's super hard to get the correct info out of your own insurance company and you have to go up a level on support before you get the bad news that if anything went wrong you're not covered and you'd be royally screwed
I have never seen the appeal of services like Turo for the owner. I bought a nice car last year and it stays in the garage most of the time. I could still never imagine renting it out to random strangers for weekend trips regardless of profitability (which would be tiny considering the cut they take). If you have a clunker that you don't care about then sure, but Turo prides itself on its upscale selection. Who is renting these cars out?
I've used Turo a lot - most of the people renting cars own a fleet of rental cars, like AUdis, etc. Their entire side gig is renting out those cars. They meet you in a parking lot with their other cars. I've almost always had a better experience with Turo than any rental agency, except one rental that was in pretty bad disrepair and had a battery die on me on the top of a mountain.
It probably wouldn't appeal to me, but I just stayed at an AirBnB in Maui for part of my vacation. The owner offered to optionally rent their Jeep Wrangler through Turo if I was interested. I already had another rental (at less than half the price) but for someone who was "Yeah, let's rent the cool Jeep," she'd have approximately doubled her take from the stay given the car rental would have been not all that much less than the room rental.
So, yeah, I get there's some associated risk and effort, but it is probably pretty tempting for some to collect a fairly hefty rental fee on an otherwise unused or little used asset.
So, yeah, I get there's some associated risk and effort, but it is probably pretty tempting for some to collect a fairly hefty rental fee on an otherwise unused or little used asset.
People who rent out their non-primary cars. Some are just running a mini car rental business.
People who don't need to drive all the time, but want a car that is out of their budget.
In a recent Airbnb thread employees [1] were justifying their work by discussing how each individual patch looks minuscule, but via employing a bandit with sufficient arms the changes aggregate to yield fantastic returns for investors. This is that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30928349
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30928349
I am making Turo alternative. https://www.riamuapp.com it’s not launched yet but soon!
Turo is a haven for scams of all kinds. Renters will offer airport pickup and drop off when you’re buying, but then bait and switch after you’re on the ground, crying about local police enforcement of ride share type airport drop offs. Since their major use case is people on vacation, they are perfectly fine with taking advantage of people in the name of “disruption”. Good riddance. If it seems too good to be true, it is.
I actually got a ticket in the airport dropoff area while I was trying to get familiar with the car. :) But I'm sure there are liars.
I have the same feeling overall now, though. The same car had a huge bulge in its tire that they were either negligent about, or deliberately hid. And they have to take a picture of your ID to complete the handoff. The kind of people who have a fleet of fancy cars to rent out like this? Yeah, you don't want them having a picture of your ID.
I have the same feeling overall now, though. The same car had a huge bulge in its tire that they were either negligent about, or deliberately hid. And they have to take a picture of your ID to complete the handoff. The kind of people who have a fleet of fancy cars to rent out like this? Yeah, you don't want them having a picture of your ID.
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/04/two-arizona-nissan-dealers...
FWIW, more of the same; same as it ever was.
FWIW, more of the same; same as it ever was.
FWIW, same as it ever was:
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/04/two-arizona-nissan-dealers...
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/04/two-arizona-nissan-dealers...
Other fees at checkout aside, regarding requiring a driving license no: Surely they require your license number so that they can check if you have any violations/tickets/etc? Wouldn’t you get a cheaper rental with a clean license? Makes sense to me, I must be missing something.
Go make a rental car reservation, no company that I know of asks for your DL to show you a price with fees. Even booking as a guest I don't think they ask for it until you get to the counter.
How does Getaround compare?
I’m not sure about the US, but their European service is very transparent on pricing (they offer two different products between the two markets). Some edge cases are generally hard to cover though, especially for unauthenticated users browsing: young driver fees and increased insurance premiums if you’d like a lower deductible.
Disclaimer: co-founded a P2P car sharing service in Norway that was acquired by Getaround in 2019.
Disclaimer: co-founded a P2P car sharing service in Norway that was acquired by Getaround in 2019.
Turo is a haven for money laundering.
In my area you can "find" multiple Chrysler 300Cs for rent for $600/day. I say "find" because many of them are unavailable for days or even weeks on end as being rented.
Good scam if you're, say, a dealer. Have one of your customers "rent" your car through Turo at an inflated rate. Bonus: you don't even have to let them have your car. They're just paying you and saying they rented it.
In my area you can "find" multiple Chrysler 300Cs for rent for $600/day. I say "find" because many of them are unavailable for days or even weeks on end as being rented.
Good scam if you're, say, a dealer. Have one of your customers "rent" your car through Turo at an inflated rate. Bonus: you don't even have to let them have your car. They're just paying you and saying they rented it.
Makes you wonder how many tech companies are (unknowingly, hopefully) laundering money. You could pull off this kind of money laundering through a lot of services -- Etsy, Taskrabbit, tons of others -- by simply listing extremely overpriced items that nobody would ever buy legitimately. And I suppose if any poor sap ever wandered in and actually bought the thing you're selling, instead of just laundering money... you could always just provide that service anyway.
I mean, there's a lot of speculation that this is exactly what NFT art is most commonly used for.
physical art too
I'd guess, it's easier with art than any of the other options listed. IF, they are caught and audited, it would be hard to justify paying $10,000 to install a TV mount. On the other hand, who can question (or prove in court) that a $100,000 painting isn't worth $100,000.
If you look through the listings of used books for sale via ABE or Bookfinder, you can find a lot of listings at irrationally high prices. There's been grumbling that something like that is going on, but of course, mainly hearsay.
Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee this morning, but I don't understand the scenario you're describing. Could you elaborate?
> Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee this morning, but I don't understand the scenario you're describing. Could you elaborate?
Beth has dirty money. Bob, a friend of Beth’s, “rents” her car. (There is no car. Maybe Bob pays Beth over Turo and then Beth gives Bob the dirty cash.) Beth now has the appearance of legitimate income.
Beth has dirty money. Bob, a friend of Beth’s, “rents” her car. (There is no car. Maybe Bob pays Beth over Turo and then Beth gives Bob the dirty cash.) Beth now has the appearance of legitimate income.
Still not detailed enough and doesn't make any sense.
Does Beth have cash? Is it in a bank account? You can't use cash on Turo from what I understand. If money is in bank account, it won't be "dirty". So, how can Beth pay for a rental on Turo?
As someone already commented, there is nothing special about Turo, you could just set up an ecommerce store and ship rocks around.
Can you please expand?
Does Beth have cash? Is it in a bank account? You can't use cash on Turo from what I understand. If money is in bank account, it won't be "dirty". So, how can Beth pay for a rental on Turo?
As someone already commented, there is nothing special about Turo, you could just set up an ecommerce store and ship rocks around.
Can you please expand?
> there is nothing special about Turo, you could just set up an ecommerce store and ship rocks around
Your analogy is correct. These serve similar functions. It’s just easier to pretend to rent a car than it is to ship rocks. (I disagree with OP about there being massive money laundering on Turo.)
Your analogy is correct. These serve similar functions. It’s just easier to pretend to rent a car than it is to ship rocks. (I disagree with OP about there being massive money laundering on Turo.)
I still have questions:
1) How is it "dirty" money when it is in the bank account? It is accounted for. Your tax ID / EIN is associated with the bank account and it is reported to IRS.
2) The ecommerce rock-shipping company would need to take cash and have to deposit in a checking account to be able to successfully launder money. So at this point, it cannot be an "ecommerce" company. It would need to be a hot-dog stand. Right?
1) How is it "dirty" money when it is in the bank account? It is accounted for. Your tax ID / EIN is associated with the bank account and it is reported to IRS.
2) The ecommerce rock-shipping company would need to take cash and have to deposit in a checking account to be able to successfully launder money. So at this point, it cannot be an "ecommerce" company. It would need to be a hot-dog stand. Right?
> How is it "dirty" money when it is in the bank account?
Lots of dirty Russian money in bank accounts looking for invoices to launder against.
Lots of dirty Russian money in bank accounts looking for invoices to launder against.
[deleted]
Bob has the same problem as Beth in showing the sources of his funds as being legitimate to justify his lavish spending on car rentals.
I think the parent comment has this wrong. This isn’t about laundering a big pile of dirty cash into a pile of clean cash. It’s more a way for black markets to take credit cards by “renting” cars. But it only works up to a small scale and for individual customers.
It still seems risky for those involved because there is a paper trail linking the buyer and seller in the case the buyer gets busted.
It still seems risky for those involved because there is a paper trail linking the buyer and seller in the case the buyer gets busted.
But Bob will have to deposit this dirty cash at some point. With enough cash, it’ll raise alarm bells unless Beth has A LOT of friends who can deposit $600 each.
Bob has a business with lots of cash coming in and can fold Beth's cash in without it being too obvious.
Or Bob knows people who know what to do with suitcases full of $500 Euro notes without alerting legal issues.
Presumably Beth pays Bob for this service.
Then Bob may have to pay his friends.
This can be done with varying degrees of sophistication.
Or Bob knows people who know what to do with suitcases full of $500 Euro notes without alerting legal issues.
Presumably Beth pays Bob for this service.
Then Bob may have to pay his friends.
This can be done with varying degrees of sophistication.
You just described money laundering. But where does Turo fit in?
Often it's more for tax evasion. Beth pays for cars as a business expense.
Bob just happens to have the Cayman Islands as the business location.
Money flows from U.S. business as a deductible expense, to the location out of the IRS's reach.
Or there isn't one Beth but lots of people with dodgy credit cards from banks in weird places. Those card holders indeed get their money in suitcases full of folding money, pay for their "rentals" and so the money flows into legitimate commerce. Bob of course pays for this.
Bob just happens to have the Cayman Islands as the business location.
Money flows from U.S. business as a deductible expense, to the location out of the IRS's reach.
Or there isn't one Beth but lots of people with dodgy credit cards from banks in weird places. Those card holders indeed get their money in suitcases full of folding money, pay for their "rentals" and so the money flows into legitimate commerce. Bob of course pays for this.
> Bob will have to deposit this dirty cash at some point
This is a layering mechanism, designed to obfuscate and distribute dirty cash. There may be many Bobs. Or Bob may be fine running cash to Mexico whereas Beth is not; this lets Bob sell that service to Beth.
(I’m also not sure how much Turo requires rentals be settled through its platform. If it allows off-platform billing and settling, there is no need to reimburse with dirty cash.)
This is a layering mechanism, designed to obfuscate and distribute dirty cash. There may be many Bobs. Or Bob may be fine running cash to Mexico whereas Beth is not; this lets Bob sell that service to Beth.
(I’m also not sure how much Turo requires rentals be settled through its platform. If it allows off-platform billing and settling, there is no need to reimburse with dirty cash.)
They must otherwise how would Turo make money? It’s not a charity…
Who said anything about it being physical cash?
The whole point of money laundering is to get criminal money into the banking system. Once it’s in the banking system you’re done. That’s why strip clubs and other cash heavy businesses are used to mix it all in.
[deleted]
Yep makes sense. Thanks!
If you read ”dealer” as ”car dealer”, think instead ”drug dealer” or similar.
I'unno, being a car dealer is a pretty dodgy line of work.
A huge barrier to wide adoption of BEVs is because dealers won't sell them because BEVs have far lower vehicle service requirements (no oil changes, no 20,000mi servicing, etc) which are normally half their revenue stream. Car dealers, en-masse, are happy to see the world burn than do-their-part and transition the world away from fossil-fuel cars simply due to their bottom-line.
A huge barrier to wide adoption of BEVs is because dealers won't sell them because BEVs have far lower vehicle service requirements (no oil changes, no 20,000mi servicing, etc) which are normally half their revenue stream. Car dealers, en-masse, are happy to see the world burn than do-their-part and transition the world away from fossil-fuel cars simply due to their bottom-line.
How would that be different that doing this on any eComm platform?
I don't understand what's unique about doing it through Turo.
I don't understand what's unique about doing it through Turo.
It's not all that unique, it's just that "daily car rentals" are pretty amorphous. Similar to how the car wash was the go-to money launder on Breaking Bad.
If you have some other eComm platform telling T-shirts or whatever, sure there could be fake orders but it wouldn't be all that hard to track down that these THINGS were never sent/made. But anything involving a service...well, it's much harder to prove that those things DIDN'T happen.
If you have some other eComm platform telling T-shirts or whatever, sure there could be fake orders but it wouldn't be all that hard to track down that these THINGS were never sent/made. But anything involving a service...well, it's much harder to prove that those things DIDN'T happen.
Car wash flow is slightly different right? Because it is a cash heavy business - in that case the "laundering" happens through cooking the books to make the business seem more successful (with more cash inflows) than it actually has. That cash comes from some illicit activity with different parties than the car wash and slowly supplements the main income from running the legitimate business. In the turo example, unless I am misunderstanding, the drug dealer or whoever is providing an illicit service asks for payment through a car rental? And so now your customers have knowledge and participation in the laundering scheme.
"Your customer" might just be you.
To do that I would need to get the money into the banking system though right? At which point it has to be already laundered. Otherwise auditors will notice unexplained large cash influxes. I don't think you can rent a turo car in cash.
> It's not all that unique, it's just that "daily car rentals" are pretty amorphous
It’s also tough to verify an actual transaction happened. With most e-commerce, the equivalent would involve shipping around boxes of rocks to generate tracking numbers.
It’s also tough to verify an actual transaction happened. With most e-commerce, the equivalent would involve shipping around boxes of rocks to generate tracking numbers.
Yea, that's interesting re: audit trail of rental. They technically have the person take a picture of the odometer before/after, but I'm unsure they force.
I'm a big Turo user (love renting sports cars off there for weekend corner carving), but I forget if it's required.
I'm a big Turo user (love renting sports cars off there for weekend corner carving), but I forget if it's required.
Right, but if it's your car (the dealer) you're presumably still using it, so you can easily give the "renter" multiple odometer pictures.
Doesn’t make sense. All the transactions are electronic and done with credit cards which means that money is already laundered for the most part.
The idea of money laundering is to turn cash into legal income. There’s other kinds of money laundering too including cross-border type transactions like you might see with art or collectibles but it’s hard to see how this makes much sense via Turo.
If the buyer has the ability to use a credit card to spend the money without attracting attention why not just buy something they want instead?
The idea of money laundering is to turn cash into legal income. There’s other kinds of money laundering too including cross-border type transactions like you might see with art or collectibles but it’s hard to see how this makes much sense via Turo.
If the buyer has the ability to use a credit card to spend the money without attracting attention why not just buy something they want instead?
Sell illicit goods by renting a fake car on Turo. Easy peasey instant launder.
All these others are thinking to hard. I see it on the airbnbs in the LA hills that are all fake with fake pictures etc. just there to rent to instantly launder a transaction from what I’m guessing.
All these others are thinking to hard. I see it on the airbnbs in the LA hills that are all fake with fake pictures etc. just there to rent to instantly launder a transaction from what I’m guessing.
Or just have them Venmo you and say "splitting bar tab awesome night out!"
Once it's a digital transaction it's a digital transaction I am not seeing the benefits here of getting Turo involved and lots of fees and costs when literally any platform will do this more easily. Like call it a car detailing service and get a square reader and only pay a couple percent.
Having used Turo in the past my theory is that there's just a bunch of people mildly delusional about what their car is worth, or maybe that found renting their car is usually not worth the hassle but will take an exorbitant rate for when the super bowl is in town or some other time every rental car option is totally sold out.
Once it's a digital transaction it's a digital transaction I am not seeing the benefits here of getting Turo involved and lots of fees and costs when literally any platform will do this more easily. Like call it a car detailing service and get a square reader and only pay a couple percent.
Having used Turo in the past my theory is that there's just a bunch of people mildly delusional about what their car is worth, or maybe that found renting their car is usually not worth the hassle but will take an exorbitant rate for when the super bowl is in town or some other time every rental car option is totally sold out.
[deleted]
When the minimum final cost is 50% more than the list price, I suppose deception is the best way to drive signups.
Ironically, I may have been more likely to complete my purchase had I seen true numbers from the start. The initial fee had me thinking it was remarkably affordable.