Ask HN: How to think about direction in life/career?
25 comments
"Most of my life I have had to work hard to create opportunities for myself, and open as many doors as possible. I was lucky to open quite a few."
But did you really? To me it reads like you got to the circle of doors at the start of your career, opened one (tech) and the ran down that hallway full pelt. You've got plenty of doors to open...but they are all in one narrow realm. Imho it sounds like you have a really narrow concept of what work/career is and what different jobs entail. Maybe take a year out and go do something completely different. Who knows maybe you like working in tech...but maybe you love hanging off the bough of a boat as it sidles along a dock to moor and your jumping over to tie it on 10x more than coding, your not gonna know if you have no exposure to the experience.
I took the opposite path, worked all kinds of jobs that aren't tech(mining, out at sea, movies). It helped me narrow down what I want...and firmly set in stone what I don't want. Maybe thats what you need? I dunno I find the concept of locking into one career especially early on incredibly daunting. You only have one life, imho you wanna try experience as many polar opposite things in it as possible to suss out what they are like before you lock into one. I couldn't think of anything worse than spending say 40 years in a career to discover on a whim that I enjoy something else more (I mean hell, I discovered I love stuff like concreting, who'd a thought shoveling sand for 8 hours and making concrete look like rocks was so much fun!?).
But did you really? To me it reads like you got to the circle of doors at the start of your career, opened one (tech) and the ran down that hallway full pelt. You've got plenty of doors to open...but they are all in one narrow realm. Imho it sounds like you have a really narrow concept of what work/career is and what different jobs entail. Maybe take a year out and go do something completely different. Who knows maybe you like working in tech...but maybe you love hanging off the bough of a boat as it sidles along a dock to moor and your jumping over to tie it on 10x more than coding, your not gonna know if you have no exposure to the experience.
I took the opposite path, worked all kinds of jobs that aren't tech(mining, out at sea, movies). It helped me narrow down what I want...and firmly set in stone what I don't want. Maybe thats what you need? I dunno I find the concept of locking into one career especially early on incredibly daunting. You only have one life, imho you wanna try experience as many polar opposite things in it as possible to suss out what they are like before you lock into one. I couldn't think of anything worse than spending say 40 years in a career to discover on a whim that I enjoy something else more (I mean hell, I discovered I love stuff like concreting, who'd a thought shoveling sand for 8 hours and making concrete look like rocks was so much fun!?).
What you said here is a bit of a reality check to me, honestly. I'm in a similar situation as OP, where I took an interest in technology at a very early age, and am fairly competent with various things, to the point most of my family still thinks I do computer science despite having deliberately chosen to pursue a bachelor in Electrical Engineering, as I wanted to try "something else".
I'm aware some people go through various different careers to end up where they are, but my entire life I've just been sitting on the path laid out before me, making the occasional choice. Do I want geography as an optional course? Which of the bachelors from this list do I feel like trying today? That sort of thing. The available choices have always depended on how well I did in certain classes, and since I never really knew what I wanted to do after I graduated, I've never really tried going for specific combinations of grades so I could end up somewhere specific, nor tried looking outside for other things to do.
I genuinely don't know how other people do it. I'm not sure I really feel I have the energy and motivation to try a wide range of jobs, but even if I wanted to, I can't imagine how to even begin doing such things. I've been taught that careers are based on education and connections, and within that context, there's not as much radical mobility as you're describing.
I'm aware some people go through various different careers to end up where they are, but my entire life I've just been sitting on the path laid out before me, making the occasional choice. Do I want geography as an optional course? Which of the bachelors from this list do I feel like trying today? That sort of thing. The available choices have always depended on how well I did in certain classes, and since I never really knew what I wanted to do after I graduated, I've never really tried going for specific combinations of grades so I could end up somewhere specific, nor tried looking outside for other things to do.
I genuinely don't know how other people do it. I'm not sure I really feel I have the energy and motivation to try a wide range of jobs, but even if I wanted to, I can't imagine how to even begin doing such things. I've been taught that careers are based on education and connections, and within that context, there's not as much radical mobility as you're describing.
Quite a few interesting points you raised, thanks.
> opened one (tech) and the ran down that hallway full pelt Breaking into tech, however unexciting it sounds from one angle, can be challenging from another. I agree I could've done more browsing, but it wasn't a good idea back then. At this point it could be, I don't know. Agreed they are mostly in one narrow realm.
> took the opposite path, worked all kinds of jobs that aren't tech(mining, out at sea, movies). It helped me narrow down what I want If I were to do this, here are some questions that'd keep me up every night: * Can I support myself / dependents working this new job? * X years from now, when it's time to put a downpayment for a house, send my kid to school, or pay for my parents' care, will I regret spending X years jumping between these careers instead of cashing in insane tech salaries? * What is my exit criteria for this exercise? Do I just keep browsing careers that expose me to the edges of the space until I find something I like? Do I have a limited runway? What happens if I burn up my savings and don't find anything life changing? I'm curious how did you think about these?
Don't get me wrong – I am trashing my tech job a bit, but it still gets me the life in which my problems sound ridiculous to 99th percentile of people. Vast majority of other careers won't get me that imho. And writing this comment reminded me I value that a lot, so thanks!
> opened one (tech) and the ran down that hallway full pelt Breaking into tech, however unexciting it sounds from one angle, can be challenging from another. I agree I could've done more browsing, but it wasn't a good idea back then. At this point it could be, I don't know. Agreed they are mostly in one narrow realm.
> took the opposite path, worked all kinds of jobs that aren't tech(mining, out at sea, movies). It helped me narrow down what I want If I were to do this, here are some questions that'd keep me up every night: * Can I support myself / dependents working this new job? * X years from now, when it's time to put a downpayment for a house, send my kid to school, or pay for my parents' care, will I regret spending X years jumping between these careers instead of cashing in insane tech salaries? * What is my exit criteria for this exercise? Do I just keep browsing careers that expose me to the edges of the space until I find something I like? Do I have a limited runway? What happens if I burn up my savings and don't find anything life changing? I'm curious how did you think about these?
Don't get me wrong – I am trashing my tech job a bit, but it still gets me the life in which my problems sound ridiculous to 99th percentile of people. Vast majority of other careers won't get me that imho. And writing this comment reminded me I value that a lot, so thanks!
Just start doing things. You can’t figure this stuff out by thinking about it any more than you can figure out how to ride a bike by thinking about it. You’re young, you’re 29. Can’t decide between 10 things you want to do? Spend a year doing each of them.
Always remember: indecision is a decision. The worst thing you can possibly do is nothing. That wastes time. Time is a resource you are always losing and you never get back. Use your time. Make decisions. If they turn out bad, make different ones. Just make decisions and execute on them.
Always remember: indecision is a decision. The worst thing you can possibly do is nothing. That wastes time. Time is a resource you are always losing and you never get back. Use your time. Make decisions. If they turn out bad, make different ones. Just make decisions and execute on them.
+1 to this.
It’s how I approach life so far: Every chance I get to proof something, I go do it but always mindful that I have to design my approach such that, if it turns out to be the wrong path, it doesn’t cost me too much.
In the end, it turned out that where I stared at (software engineering), was the place I wanted to be. It wasn’t lost effort though because I ended up using the other skills I picked along the way.
It’s how I approach life so far: Every chance I get to proof something, I go do it but always mindful that I have to design my approach such that, if it turns out to be the wrong path, it doesn’t cost me too much.
In the end, it turned out that where I stared at (software engineering), was the place I wanted to be. It wasn’t lost effort though because I ended up using the other skills I picked along the way.
Do you have any hobbies outside of work? Are you pursuing or maintaining any strong relationships with friends and family? I think you're a little wrapped up in finding your sense of being and happiness and satisfaction in your career, and you should branch on to find other sources too. Don't get me wrong, your work can still be a source of all of that, you might just need more sources. With hobbies, you can find new challenges and problems and milestones and that provides direction, which takes the burden off your software/job for providing it all. Good to hear you're actively taking care of yourself.
Nail on the head! I don't have much going on apart from work and a relationship.
Honestly moving to a new city just before covid ensured I have an excuse for not working on any of that. I'm trying to find a way to travel more, and do more things unrelated to work, but keep telling myself I need to move somewhere else first for a fresh start, and that causes a cycle with what I described in the post.
Thanks for the advice!
Honestly moving to a new city just before covid ensured I have an excuse for not working on any of that. I'm trying to find a way to travel more, and do more things unrelated to work, but keep telling myself I need to move somewhere else first for a fresh start, and that causes a cycle with what I described in the post.
Thanks for the advice!
How do you then fight the dreaming about that hobby becoming your full time work? This happens to me every time and I end up getting competitive about it and losing the blissful enjoyment it once provided
You don't have to be a min-maxer, it's ok to do something because you enjoy it. You don't need to hustle-culture it into a job or monetize it.
A great great book that helped me with this: Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans (https://designingyour.life/the-book/).
I first got exposed to it during a career navigation workshop that showed us this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SemHh0n19LA&ab_channel=TEDxT...
They also published a follow-up called Designing Your Work Life but I haven't read that one.
I first got exposed to it during a career navigation workshop that showed us this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SemHh0n19LA&ab_channel=TEDxT...
They also published a follow-up called Designing Your Work Life but I haven't read that one.
I just read both of these.
Designing your life is aimed at people deciding what to do with their life, based off the work they did helping college students decide what to do after graduation. If you’re already in a field and enjoy it, or have a family and can’t handle the pay cut from a career reset, it may not be super relevant for you.
Designing your work life is more focused on helping create a career that fits with your life goals, working inside constraints you may have (want/need to stay at your company, in your field, etc). If you generally know what field you want to work in, it’s helping dial in specifically what kind of job you want and how you approach it.
Designing your life is aimed at people deciding what to do with their life, based off the work they did helping college students decide what to do after graduation. If you’re already in a field and enjoy it, or have a family and can’t handle the pay cut from a career reset, it may not be super relevant for you.
Designing your work life is more focused on helping create a career that fits with your life goals, working inside constraints you may have (want/need to stay at your company, in your field, etc). If you generally know what field you want to work in, it’s helping dial in specifically what kind of job you want and how you approach it.
Two thoughts here, one is that finding a different job that you find more fulfilling - maybe in some sort of mission driven or tech for good type company might be good. The other is that it sounds like you might benefit from speaking with a coach of some sort, they can be great at helping you find your way.
Wow! I'm in a similar boat, especially regarding the US v. Europe thing, and I realized I'm very divided between a life that most people would think is made of the "good choices", and one that could go "less optimal", but will probably help me figure out what I like better. Staying in the US got very predictable in terms of what my journey will look like 5,10 years to come, and I got less interested in that, even though, and I know it's a privileged position, it will most certainly guarantee I get paid more than any other place. However, there's something about taking the plunge and finding out what it could possibly look like in Europe, and maybe trying to make it financially "work" there too. I've acquired a certain level of professional confidence in myself over the years that made me believe I can be very successful in Europe too, and I've been wanting to try a better social life. I've been living here for almost a decade, and at this point I feel like I've tried all that the country can materially offer me, but in a smaller scale. I did college, NYC, the beach life, and everything in between, and I want to experience something else.
From what you're saying, it seems like working on something nice with nice colleagues might be more fulfilling for you now than working at the bleeding edge of tech for the best salary.
Some decisions might also seem more consequential to you than they are. Whatever job you pick, it will still be a job. Wherever you go, people will have the same basic interests and needs.
Many seemingly big decisions are also kind of reversible. If you quit your current job, you can always get another equally okay-ish job at a megacorp. If you move somewhere else, you can also move back. Only if you plan to start a family you might want to be close to your relatives, but YMMV.
Some decisions might also seem more consequential to you than they are. Whatever job you pick, it will still be a job. Wherever you go, people will have the same basic interests and needs.
Many seemingly big decisions are also kind of reversible. If you quit your current job, you can always get another equally okay-ish job at a megacorp. If you move somewhere else, you can also move back. Only if you plan to start a family you might want to be close to your relatives, but YMMV.
> Many seemingly big decisions are also kind of reversible
Funny how I practice and preach this in my job. When it comes to applying the same framework to decisions in life, I fail to do so
I'm somehow able to find really poor framings that present decisions as irreversible. For example, choosing to go to a smaller co with nice people but worse pay makes the opportunity cost of staying in my current job something that's not reversible (i.e. I'll never get the money et al, so the time isn't spent as good as it could've been). Thanks for reminding me of this, something I need to repeat to myself every day.
Funny how I practice and preach this in my job. When it comes to applying the same framework to decisions in life, I fail to do so
I'm somehow able to find really poor framings that present decisions as irreversible. For example, choosing to go to a smaller co with nice people but worse pay makes the opportunity cost of staying in my current job something that's not reversible (i.e. I'll never get the money et al, so the time isn't spent as good as it could've been). Thanks for reminding me of this, something I need to repeat to myself every day.
> My answer to "what do you want to do?" is rarely consistent for more than a few days in a row. I now realize I never really knew what I was after, and I was just lucky to be happy with whatever I had stumbled upon. Do I want to pursue being a depth IC, manager, founding engineer in startups, or even a founder myself? Hard to control scope in these decisions. Thinking this over day-to-day is a recipe for anxiety and endless analysis-paralysis.
My "fresh perspective" is that maybe none of that matters that much? What matters is that you enjoy your work colleagues, work is bearable and sometimes interesting, you make a lot of money, and you have a life (friends, family) to attend to after work.
My "fresh perspective" is that maybe none of that matters that much? What matters is that you enjoy your work colleagues, work is bearable and sometimes interesting, you make a lot of money, and you have a life (friends, family) to attend to after work.
[deleted]
> Before I get into it, I want to recognize how privileged this whole story is, and that myself 15y ago would laugh at how much this reeks of 1st world problems.
I think it’s stupid that in the current environment you must apologize for your perceived location in some sort of privilege hierarchy in order to lament a (perhaps) universal experience for humans: where am I going? Why? What does it mean?
Not your fault (and not an answer, other than to say “yes, I too have wondered where I am going, what I should work on, what I should do with my life”), just the way of things I suppose.
I think it’s stupid that in the current environment you must apologize for your perceived location in some sort of privilege hierarchy in order to lament a (perhaps) universal experience for humans: where am I going? Why? What does it mean?
Not your fault (and not an answer, other than to say “yes, I too have wondered where I am going, what I should work on, what I should do with my life”), just the way of things I suppose.
I think the career happiness and most success comes from when sth someone would have done if nobody would have paid that person is the thing other people need and pay for. It is hard to find that sth. but when you find it, it is gold.
For me it was art, especially concept art. You have to find yours.
For me it was art, especially concept art. You have to find yours.
Have you heard of this car company called Porsche? I think they have some of the answers you're looking for.
Find your other, have a kid. The rest will sort itself out.
This resonated with me, as it describes my situation to almost the exact same details (including the aspirations you mention with Distributed Systems & Databases on which I totally dropped the ball with no regrets)
tl;dr: Facing the same set of walls like you, and writing journal entries about them spanning more than a year, I eventually arrived at a list of 'core values' that I go back to when life throws itself at me. This serves as a framework for me to make any important decisions, while reminding me to keep marching ahead despite the headwinds. (I pasted the exact copy of it from my journal entry at the bottom of this post)
I will re-order your questions a bit.
"How do I commit without looking back? How to think productively about dependencies between these decisions?"
- Commit but do look back. Patterns often repeat themselves, only at different scales. And most decisions provide invaluable experiences that aid us in making a similar decision down the road.
- Understand what you value in life, your set of core values or principles that serve as a framework to make all important decisions.
- Act. Move over your decision paralysis. Make peace with the fact that reasoning is infinite, unsatisfiability is core to being Human. Nature and your Mind is endlessly complex. An answer to the question we seek is often a beginning of a new mystery that is mostly turtles all the way down. So, keep re-working your core values.
"How do I limit the scope of my decisions?"
- Do they improve your understanding of your core values? Bonus points if one decision positively ticks the needle forward in multiple core values. Remember, Reasoning is the root of all values that makes us Humans.
How do I ensure I can backtrack in case of a bad decision? What is even a bad decision?
- A decision taken based on the above framework can't be considered 'bad' - as it contradicts your root value of Reasoning. All decisions will unlock an answer that you necessarily wanted - helping you set your next duck in that row. Suffering is an essential part of being Humans, and in the story of your life, bad decisions become important foundations on which success is built.
- Most mundane decisions are reversible. For the critical / irreversible ones - try to break it down into smaller achievable (and often reversible) steps - keep getting those ducks in a row. (e.g. leaving a comfortable high paying job for a more strenuous low paying one still would be a good decision, because now you've come out knowing that what you really value after all is a comfortable high paying career)
"How to find things (or thing) that I want to do and be sure to do it for longer than a week?"
- Read. A lot. Follow a ‘T’ shaped learning – broad on some topics, but deep in at least one. Explore many but exploit one. Curiosity (and hence Creativity) is a natural result of combining the functions of the Right and the Left brains, that power our Imagination and Reasoning. Think Mozart, Einstein, Doudna.
----- My framework of Life:
> Be honest, especially to yourself. Respect and Recognition (our primal talents) comes for free.
> You get to re-live your whole childhood again when you raise your kids. Your memories are just playing back to you, only this time, you are in your dad’s shoes. You have been dealt a ‘Get Lucky’ card from Nature and Nurture to reach here. Use it wisely.
> Love people unconditionally. Start with your family, then the communities you are a part of. Give yourself for them.
> Get inspired by Nature, the Universe, its inhabitants, and its Creator. It has solved an amazing array of problems already.
> Build bridges between your practice and your passion, stretching the fabric of your knowledge. Wealth (our other primal talent) comes for free.
Together is how we all grow, as an infinite single stream of consciousness.
----- Edits: Formatting.
tl;dr: Facing the same set of walls like you, and writing journal entries about them spanning more than a year, I eventually arrived at a list of 'core values' that I go back to when life throws itself at me. This serves as a framework for me to make any important decisions, while reminding me to keep marching ahead despite the headwinds. (I pasted the exact copy of it from my journal entry at the bottom of this post)
I will re-order your questions a bit.
"How do I commit without looking back? How to think productively about dependencies between these decisions?"
- Commit but do look back. Patterns often repeat themselves, only at different scales. And most decisions provide invaluable experiences that aid us in making a similar decision down the road.
- Understand what you value in life, your set of core values or principles that serve as a framework to make all important decisions.
- Act. Move over your decision paralysis. Make peace with the fact that reasoning is infinite, unsatisfiability is core to being Human. Nature and your Mind is endlessly complex. An answer to the question we seek is often a beginning of a new mystery that is mostly turtles all the way down. So, keep re-working your core values.
"How do I limit the scope of my decisions?"
- Do they improve your understanding of your core values? Bonus points if one decision positively ticks the needle forward in multiple core values. Remember, Reasoning is the root of all values that makes us Humans.
How do I ensure I can backtrack in case of a bad decision? What is even a bad decision?
- A decision taken based on the above framework can't be considered 'bad' - as it contradicts your root value of Reasoning. All decisions will unlock an answer that you necessarily wanted - helping you set your next duck in that row. Suffering is an essential part of being Humans, and in the story of your life, bad decisions become important foundations on which success is built.
- Most mundane decisions are reversible. For the critical / irreversible ones - try to break it down into smaller achievable (and often reversible) steps - keep getting those ducks in a row. (e.g. leaving a comfortable high paying job for a more strenuous low paying one still would be a good decision, because now you've come out knowing that what you really value after all is a comfortable high paying career)
"How to find things (or thing) that I want to do and be sure to do it for longer than a week?"
- Read. A lot. Follow a ‘T’ shaped learning – broad on some topics, but deep in at least one. Explore many but exploit one. Curiosity (and hence Creativity) is a natural result of combining the functions of the Right and the Left brains, that power our Imagination and Reasoning. Think Mozart, Einstein, Doudna.
----- My framework of Life:
> Be honest, especially to yourself. Respect and Recognition (our primal talents) comes for free.
> You get to re-live your whole childhood again when you raise your kids. Your memories are just playing back to you, only this time, you are in your dad’s shoes. You have been dealt a ‘Get Lucky’ card from Nature and Nurture to reach here. Use it wisely.
> Love people unconditionally. Start with your family, then the communities you are a part of. Give yourself for them.
> Get inspired by Nature, the Universe, its inhabitants, and its Creator. It has solved an amazing array of problems already.
> Build bridges between your practice and your passion, stretching the fabric of your knowledge. Wealth (our other primal talent) comes for free.
Together is how we all grow, as an infinite single stream of consciousness.
----- Edits: Formatting.
I'm having a hard time deciding what to do, both personally and professionally.
Personally, I'm conflicted about lifestyles I want to obtain. One day I'm ambitious and want to devote my life to building generational wealth, only to dream of a humble house and spending my time cooking simple meals. It's not that I think I wouldn't find some happiness in any of those possibilities – what bothers me is that I cannot completely decide where on that spectrum I'd like to aim for. A good example of this is the question of living in the US (on H1b/L1) vs. Europe, where I bounce between the two on a weekly basis, making it hard to either move or come to peace with where I am and move on.
Professionally it's a similar story. I started coding in middle-school, and acquired generalist skills by working on many things throughout high school / college. I was and still am ambitious, albeit I lately started understanding it's a double-edged sword in a way.
Now I'm in late-twenties, came to FAANG straight from school, working on distributed systems at scale. My job is good, I get enough opportunities, get recognized very often, and there's room for me to grow. The shipping velocity and lack of accountability is not great but I don't think I can impact the culture enough for a meaningful change. Organizational overhead is frequently a mess and building trust with an ever-changing list of line managers and TLs takes away too much energy. Looking around, there aren't too many people I like or am excited about working with, but that tends to change often. I used to think there were times where all I wanted to do was clear – learn more about databases, or build distributed systems, or coach and mentor peers, or get more money, or build effective teams, or start a self-bootstrapped side business to squeeze more money out of my skills, etc. I used to be more excited about tech as well, now it all seems less meaningful.
In the past year or so, I've struggled to define a meaningful & fulfilling direction. My answer to "what do you want to do?" is rarely consistent for more than a few days in a row. I now realize I never really knew what I was after, and I was just lucky to be happy with whatever I had stumbled upon. Do I want to pursue being a depth IC, manager, founding engineer in startups, or even a founder myself? Hard to control scope in these decisions. Thinking this over day-to-day is a recipe for anxiety and endless analysis-paralysis.
Most of my life I have had to work hard to create opportunities for myself, and open as many doors as possible. I was lucky to open quite a few. I now understand that I need to deliberately close some of the doors to move forward, and it goes against what got me here, hence so much friction.
I'm looking for fresh perspectives on conceptualizing or thinking about situations like this. Frameworks that peers and mentors often provide assume that I know what I want to do, and are concerned more with how to do it.
How do I limit the scope of my decisions? How do I ensure I can backtrack in case of a bad decision? What is even a bad decision? How to find things (or thing) that I want to do and be sure to do it for longer than a week? How do I commit without looking back? How to think productively about dependencies between these decisions?
Curious to hear stories as well. Where were you stuck, and how did it play out?
Many thanks, HN.