Expats are moving to Portugal(latimes.com)
latimes.com
Expats are moving to Portugal
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/california-expats-portugal-relocation-lisbon
164 comments
Well, for my wife and me, like the featured couple, we moved here to Cascais, where we have leased a 3 bedroom apartment. (We moved from Seattle, not L.A., but most of the dynamics are the same.) The concerns that you raise have not happened to us.We have plenty and frequent meetups with our friends back in the U.S. via Facetime/Zoom/Signal. No, it's not the same as being together in person, but it is "good enough"; we all enjoy ourselves. And, our niece and her husband live in the U.K.; they popped over last weekend, where we got together for dinner in Lisbon, and had a great time, in our native language...
A large percentage of the Portuguese people speak and understand some English, and nearly all people under 30 speak English fluently. And no one, ever, has been anything but delighted when we (try to) speak in Portuguese. They are very patient, really want to help us learn their language, and are fine with translation apps.
I suppose you could see all of the tourist attractions in Lisbon in a (long) weekend, but living here lets you see so much more; it is a culturally rich and interesting country. As for cultural attachments, I guess I'm not sure what that means; but if it means "people and places being the way I am used to", then I respond that for us, it is fascinating and fun to see how other people and places are; seeing what other ways of doing and thinking are possible. It is an adjustment, definitely, and it may not be for you.
It is true that rent prices in Cascais are higher than we had hoped they would be, but they are still significantly lower than what they are in Seattle. Our apartment here is at least half as expensive as it would be in Seattle. And groceries, utilities (including 1Gbs internet), restaurants, consumer goods (e.g. clothes) are dramatically less expensive, as well.
And finally: Yes, it is SO MUCH safer here than in Seattle. The constant tension of looking over your shoulder is gone; you have no idea how heavy a mental weight that is until one day it is lifted.
A large percentage of the Portuguese people speak and understand some English, and nearly all people under 30 speak English fluently. And no one, ever, has been anything but delighted when we (try to) speak in Portuguese. They are very patient, really want to help us learn their language, and are fine with translation apps.
I suppose you could see all of the tourist attractions in Lisbon in a (long) weekend, but living here lets you see so much more; it is a culturally rich and interesting country. As for cultural attachments, I guess I'm not sure what that means; but if it means "people and places being the way I am used to", then I respond that for us, it is fascinating and fun to see how other people and places are; seeing what other ways of doing and thinking are possible. It is an adjustment, definitely, and it may not be for you.
It is true that rent prices in Cascais are higher than we had hoped they would be, but they are still significantly lower than what they are in Seattle. Our apartment here is at least half as expensive as it would be in Seattle. And groceries, utilities (including 1Gbs internet), restaurants, consumer goods (e.g. clothes) are dramatically less expensive, as well.
And finally: Yes, it is SO MUCH safer here than in Seattle. The constant tension of looking over your shoulder is gone; you have no idea how heavy a mental weight that is until one day it is lifted.
I wouldn’t know this joy. Literally no one I know who hasn’t lived in SF is ever interested in coming to visit. Even people I know who have family here have instead convinced their family to move away so that they don’t have to visit SF anymore. I’ve been here seven years.
Maybe your experience and people who live in LA or SD differs but seems fuckall want to visit SF. None of my friends outside of SF work in tech either. They’re all normies. (Professors, teachers, engineers, sales, etc.) I don’t think people visit SF for fun very much.
Maybe your experience and people who live in LA or SD differs but seems fuckall want to visit SF. None of my friends outside of SF work in tech either. They’re all normies. (Professors, teachers, engineers, sales, etc.) I don’t think people visit SF for fun very much.
Not to be pedantic but everything listed here would not be missed in the slightest by those with no desire to see their family or have friends that spontaneously make themselves available to you without prior plans.
If you are sufficient in French you will certainly have a better experience than being the American stereotype that arrives without learning to speak for yourself prior to arrival.
I would argue that someone preparing for life in Portugal by learning French is actually perpetuating the stereotype of Americans that you allude to.
You know, as a (former) native Californian, if I were to use that argument against the people who migrated to California I’d probably be skewed alive.
Are you honestly comparing rich, possibly bored, coastal Californians looking for that new remote beach city to gentrify to ambitious/poor LATAM immigrants seeking a better way of life and employment in coastal California ? Those are very different stories.
No, the parent comment is probably referring to obnoxious people with MBAs from Minnesota or wherever who move to LA or SF and complain on the internet about how it’s “like living in a third world country” after 6 months
I think California might be defined by the kind of reasoning this couple exhibits.
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Portugal seriously sucks. The food is bad, and yeah you can see about all there is to see in both Lisboa and Porto in under a week. I was really turned off when I went there in November.
I think it's a magnet for this stuff because it's cheaper than the rest of Europe and the government has openly marketed itself to this kind of thing (to the detriment of the citizens, who are being priced out of housing and a lot of whom are leaving for other countries.)
I think it's a magnet for this stuff because it's cheaper than the rest of Europe and the government has openly marketed itself to this kind of thing (to the detriment of the citizens, who are being priced out of housing and a lot of whom are leaving for other countries.)
> The food is bad
Dear, your credibility:
Goodbye.
Dear, your credibility:
Goodbye.
If you are from the US the food is different and is regional. The Algarve is very proud of their traditional seafood. If you aren't used to Mackerel and Cod and Sardines it's hard to get used to. As you move north the dishes change.
The bread is awesome everywhere.
The bread is awesome everywhere.
I am French and I love Portugal. I visited it many times, have Portuguese friends and it is the only country I would be glad to live outside of mine (I travelled the world for 7 years straight).
Now with this said, Portuguese food is medium. There are great cheeses, great starters but then it goes downhill.
Again, I have nothing but live for that country and people living there, the culture and whynot but food is not the first thing (or the 5th) when I think about Portugal.
Now with this said, Portuguese food is medium. There are great cheeses, great starters but then it goes downhill.
Again, I have nothing but live for that country and people living there, the culture and whynot but food is not the first thing (or the 5th) when I think about Portugal.
This is a more nuanced version of what I was trying to say. But if the cuisine in a country doesn’t hit for me, it’s a big con.
I’m in Mexico right now having a lot of fun
I’m in Mexico right now having a lot of fun
The national dish of Portugal is salted codfish with cabbage. Fucking gross. I will die on this hill I don't care how many downvotes it gets me.
You can find Italian restaurants all over the world. Where are all the Portugese restaurants if this cuisine is so brilliant?
You can find Italian restaurants all over the world. Where are all the Portugese restaurants if this cuisine is so brilliant?
Indeed the national dish is not to my taste, I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is, however I suspect it probably isn't the best, despite there being very good food available there.
It can be hard to know what to eat and often more importantly where to eat as a tourist, and in Portugal its often (in my experience) the last obvious establishments that are the best (often places you don't even think sell food).
It can be hard to know what to eat and often more importantly where to eat as a tourist, and in Portugal its often (in my experience) the last obvious establishments that are the best (often places you don't even think sell food).
> I'm not even sure what the USA national dish
Doubt there is one (some might say apple pie) and the only thing I can think of that unites all the different American cuisines and regional variations is the sandwich.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-...
Doubt there is one (some might say apple pie) and the only thing I can think of that unites all the different American cuisines and regional variations is the sandwich.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-...
> I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is
Big Mac?
Big Mac?
Italians are quite elitist in their food. It seems like every Italian's live purpose is proving to everyone how good they are at cooking.
Spain/Portuguese food isn't snobbish or fancy, but it's generally good. As a matter of fact I find that the baseline for what is bad in these places is actually quite high.
That is not the case for your average Italian restaurant around the world. Most of them are not that great.
Spain/Portuguese food isn't snobbish or fancy, but it's generally good. As a matter of fact I find that the baseline for what is bad in these places is actually quite high.
That is not the case for your average Italian restaurant around the world. Most of them are not that great.
National dish notwithstanding, Portugal has other plenty of great seafood-based dishes.
The best National food after Italian (and maybe Japanese) is Georgian, but you don't see their restaurants worldwide either.
The best National food after Italian (and maybe Japanese) is Georgian, but you don't see their restaurants worldwide either.
Don’t even get me started on Octupus. Putting aside that it’s dubious ethically it’s like fucking rubber.
Georgia being a tiny third world country that hardly anybody knows about might have something to do with their lack of cuisine reach.
Portuguese is like the 5th most spoken language in the world. That’s pretty damning.
Georgia being a tiny third world country that hardly anybody knows about might have something to do with their lack of cuisine reach.
Portuguese is like the 5th most spoken language in the world. That’s pretty damning.
You have not had well cooked octopus unfortunately. And as for other fantastic Portuguese dishes, caldo verde, grilled sardines, chicken piri-piri, are all quite good. That’s just off the top of my head. And although it’s technically a Brazilian cocktail, the caipirinha is a top tier hot weather alcoholic beverage. You should visit Portugal again!
Georgian food is very mediocre. Bread with cheese isn’t bad, but it’s nothing special. Brazilian food, however, is very underrated.
A Georgian feast is like 8 different great dishes, not just Khachapuri. Chakapuli (Lamb & Tarragon stew) or Bazha (walnut sauce) with the way they make chicken… excellent.
Never been, but after visiting Spain last year, I struggle to believe Portugal has bad food.
And I'm here to say that it's not (and I've eaten all over the world). Portuguese food is excellent.
Obviously it depends what you like, but the seafood and rice dishes were excellent. And there's also Mozambican food with spicy piri-piri sauce... can't get enough of that.
Obviously it depends what you like, but the seafood and rice dishes were excellent. And there's also Mozambican food with spicy piri-piri sauce... can't get enough of that.
In my experience Portuguese food taste wonderfully, definitely something to try out. But it is very rich in lipids and sugar. It’s also quite hard to find interesting things if you’re vegetarian or vegan.
I would recommend to try their fish and seafood, it’s fantastic.
I would recommend to try their fish and seafood, it’s fantastic.
Out of curiosity, what is good food ?
Hamburgers! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast!
What do they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Lisbon?
They don't call it a Quarter Pounder, they have metric system
A Metric Royale, obviously.
big mac
Seriously this. A run if the mill big mac is better than most Portuguese food.
> big mac
Here it is ladies and gentleman. Portuguese people love bashing Americans. They have a really narrow minded idea of what an American is, and that's that ("Americans are fat", "Americans are stupid").
Portuguese people consider themselves worldly and educated, which is ironic because for the most part they tend to be extremely provincial. I bet you that the average Californian has tried more foods than the average Portuguese person even knows exist. They don't know much food-wise, that's why they think that salted codfish and cabbage is great food, like someone else mentioned.
Source: I was born in Portugal, lived most of my life in Portugal, now moved to the US because Portugal isn't great. Pay is low, services are atrocious, food is hit and miss (but limited in variety), and people are narrow-minded.
Here it is ladies and gentleman. Portuguese people love bashing Americans. They have a really narrow minded idea of what an American is, and that's that ("Americans are fat", "Americans are stupid").
Portuguese people consider themselves worldly and educated, which is ironic because for the most part they tend to be extremely provincial. I bet you that the average Californian has tried more foods than the average Portuguese person even knows exist. They don't know much food-wise, that's why they think that salted codfish and cabbage is great food, like someone else mentioned.
Source: I was born in Portugal, lived most of my life in Portugal, now moved to the US because Portugal isn't great. Pay is low, services are atrocious, food is hit and miss (but limited in variety), and people are narrow-minded.
> Portuguese people love bashing Americans
This is not limited to Portugal though; this sentiment exists in many countries, especially among people who have never been in America. But yeah, like your anecdotal, I have many anecdotes too; like Americans in Thailand saying the food is disgusting; they only went to 5 star hotels with EU/US type food. In Thailand. And that wasn't the first or the last time in Asia. I like eating in the US, and I like to go there and meet new people. I moved to Portugal a few years ago and everyone Portuguese I meet (generally programmers) would like to live in the US, at least a few years. So not sure, guess depends on many things. I guess, like I always say, if you don't like it somewhere, just pack up and leave; good you did as you don't seem to like it. I will move too in a few years, not sure where, but we'll see.
This is not limited to Portugal though; this sentiment exists in many countries, especially among people who have never been in America. But yeah, like your anecdotal, I have many anecdotes too; like Americans in Thailand saying the food is disgusting; they only went to 5 star hotels with EU/US type food. In Thailand. And that wasn't the first or the last time in Asia. I like eating in the US, and I like to go there and meet new people. I moved to Portugal a few years ago and everyone Portuguese I meet (generally programmers) would like to live in the US, at least a few years. So not sure, guess depends on many things. I guess, like I always say, if you don't like it somewhere, just pack up and leave; good you did as you don't seem to like it. I will move too in a few years, not sure where, but we'll see.
So good food is having access to quality world cuisine like Japanese, Ethiopian, Indian, Polish, Italian, Thai …made by people that immigrated from those area recently and cook it the authentic way?
That’s how I understand your comment.
In that aspect, yes, absolutely. The US provide access to variety of « world cuisine »
I bet it’s harder to find good niranja in Lisbon than Columbus, Ohio.
That’s how I understand your comment.
In that aspect, yes, absolutely. The US provide access to variety of « world cuisine »
I bet it’s harder to find good niranja in Lisbon than Columbus, Ohio.
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I've always loved how migrants become expats when they're white.
I had thought it was exclusively a preserve of the British in anywhere in Europe that's sunny, and people who moved to Singapore or Dubai for the money, but hey, welcome to the club, Californians into yoga!
I had thought it was exclusively a preserve of the British in anywhere in Europe that's sunny, and people who moved to Singapore or Dubai for the money, but hey, welcome to the club, Californians into yoga!
I think expatriate actually has a different shade of meaning from migrant.
Expats are typically people living outside their country on a non-permanent basis (on assignment or some temporary basis), with no intention to permanent emigrate to the country.
Immigrants however are people who move to a country with the intention of settling there permanently.
From the article's description, it sounds like these folks are expats, probably in Portugal on a D7 or Golden Visa (both are temporary visas). Some may elect to apply for citizenship after a period of residency (5 years), in which case they would become immigrants if the choose to remain. I guess some just stay long enough to get an EU passport, and then they buzz off -- then they wouldn't be migrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
Expats are typically people living outside their country on a non-permanent basis (on assignment or some temporary basis), with no intention to permanent emigrate to the country.
Immigrants however are people who move to a country with the intention of settling there permanently.
From the article's description, it sounds like these folks are expats, probably in Portugal on a D7 or Golden Visa (both are temporary visas). Some may elect to apply for citizenship after a period of residency (5 years), in which case they would become immigrants if the choose to remain. I guess some just stay long enough to get an EU passport, and then they buzz off -- then they wouldn't be migrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
> Expats are typically people living outside their country on a non-permanent basis (on assignment or some temporary basis), with no intention to permanent emigrate to the country.
> Immigrants however are people who move to a country with the intention of settling there permanently.
I think those are the textbook definitions, but in reality expat is usually applied to those from higher income countries only.
Do this quick experiment, do an image search "expats in <destination_name>" vs "migrants in <destination_name>" and compare the pictures:
See what their income appears to be, clothing, skin color and circumstances.
Dubai:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expats+in+dubai&t=h_&iax=images&ia...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=migrants+in+dubai&t=h_&iar=images&...
Costa Rica:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=migrants+in+costa+rica&t=h_&iar=im...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expats+in+costa+rica&t=h_&iar=imag...
For example, for 'expats in Costa Rica' I got shown a couple in an outdoor hotel, and for 'migrants in Costa Rica' I got shown the Immigration Police detaining a group from Africa and a dozen people sharing a bed.
> Immigrants however are people who move to a country with the intention of settling there permanently.
I think those are the textbook definitions, but in reality expat is usually applied to those from higher income countries only.
Do this quick experiment, do an image search "expats in <destination_name>" vs "migrants in <destination_name>" and compare the pictures:
See what their income appears to be, clothing, skin color and circumstances.
Dubai:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expats+in+dubai&t=h_&iax=images&ia...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=migrants+in+dubai&t=h_&iar=images&...
Costa Rica:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=migrants+in+costa+rica&t=h_&iar=im...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expats+in+costa+rica&t=h_&iar=imag...
For example, for 'expats in Costa Rica' I got shown a couple in an outdoor hotel, and for 'migrants in Costa Rica' I got shown the Immigration Police detaining a group from Africa and a dozen people sharing a bed.
Dubai is funny example as neither group is permanent, but just there to work. Mostly cause Dubai and likes really aren't big on immigration.
It's fair to assume that British pensioners that move to Spain are not doing it on a temporary basis, however they are still called expats. This kind of language is usually an indication of exceptionalism.
Another example is British newspapers which use "corruption" when writing about alleged corruption in African countries, but use "sleaze" or "controversies" when writing about alleged corruption in the UK.
Another example is British newspapers which use "corruption" when writing about alleged corruption in African countries, but use "sleaze" or "controversies" when writing about alleged corruption in the UK.
I believe this is a result of parliamentary language and defamation laws
I doubt it. British media can be sued, in Britain under British defamation laws, by foreigners too. That's why they're careful with rich white celebrities, even if they're foreigners. But less rich or famous (or white) foreigners (or their entire countries)...? Naah, not so much.
I've always thought that the key difference is attitude to the host country. Expatriates don't want to (or don't think they need to) attempt to integrate, migrants do.
I've met British people who've been in NZ since the 1980s who still consider themselves ex-pats - and can still complain about how our Weetbix is nothing like good ol Weetabix.
But then I've met people from Britain who've been here for 10 years, and considered themselves a Kiwi for 10 years too.
I guess it comes down to their mindset.
I've met British people who've been in NZ since the 1980s who still consider themselves ex-pats - and can still complain about how our Weetbix is nothing like good ol Weetabix.
But then I've met people from Britain who've been here for 10 years, and considered themselves a Kiwi for 10 years too.
I guess it comes down to their mindset.
> I've met British people who've been in NZ since the 1980s who still consider themselves ex-pats - and can still complain about how our Weetbix is nothing like good ol Weetabix.
How is this different to any other migrant who misses something from their homeland? Why does it bother you, and why do you see it as an indication of a deficiency of mindset? Shall I similarly hold something against migrants in the UK who prefer something about their homeland? I can't imagine keeping this attitude.
I've lived in other countries but have never called myself an expat. In my experience, the term has been used exclusively by others, mostly non-white people, to describe me.
It's no different from Chinese migrant communities in my hometown calling themselves "Overseas Chinese".
How is this different to any other migrant who misses something from their homeland? Why does it bother you, and why do you see it as an indication of a deficiency of mindset? Shall I similarly hold something against migrants in the UK who prefer something about their homeland? I can't imagine keeping this attitude.
I've lived in other countries but have never called myself an expat. In my experience, the term has been used exclusively by others, mostly non-white people, to describe me.
It's no different from Chinese migrant communities in my hometown calling themselves "Overseas Chinese".
I guess you're not familiar with the stereotype of the "whinging Pom".
It's a stereotype because it's often true. And the usual response is "well, if Britain was so much better, why are you here?"
They're obviously here because Britain wasn't better. But they still trash talk the country that allowed them in.
(Weetabix was an example, not the limit of the complaining).
If I moved to the UK, after 40 years I'd let go of the fact that my home country's coffee (for example) is so much better, because I've obviously chosen to spend four decades in the UK because I find it better than my country.
To repeat myself, it's the mindset. If, after four decades, you're still comparing the country you've moved to unfavorably to your home country, then your mindset isn't one of integration. It's one of colonialism.
It's a stereotype because it's often true. And the usual response is "well, if Britain was so much better, why are you here?"
They're obviously here because Britain wasn't better. But they still trash talk the country that allowed them in.
(Weetabix was an example, not the limit of the complaining).
If I moved to the UK, after 40 years I'd let go of the fact that my home country's coffee (for example) is so much better, because I've obviously chosen to spend four decades in the UK because I find it better than my country.
To repeat myself, it's the mindset. If, after four decades, you're still comparing the country you've moved to unfavorably to your home country, then your mindset isn't one of integration. It's one of colonialism.
> complain about how our Weetbix is nothing like good ol Weetabix.
Who gives a fuck about the differences between different brands – or, even more meaningless, local varieties of the same brand – of chipboard as food?!?
Who gives a fuck about the differences between different brands – or, even more meaningless, local varieties of the same brand – of chipboard as food?!?
That can’t be the key difference lest you consider gettoed immigrants with no expectation of integration as expats, which is not the typical usage.
I would say migrants are those who are planning to integrate, if not always culturally then at least economically in the future country.
Expats are those who are neither looking for work, learn the language or associate themselves with the locals, add to local culture.
Expats are those who are neither looking for work, learn the language or associate themselves with the locals, add to local culture.
Expats = white people. Simple.
Have you ever seen Indian H1B workers described as expats?
I know that in the US these topics are often conflated, but it isn’t necessarily about race, more about social class and how much money you have.
But you’re right, not all migrants are treated or categorized the same way.
I’m myself an expatriate, I left my country and immigrated somewhere else. Nobody would ever call me a migrant even if it is technically correct because I don’t match the stereotype (due to my nationality, social class, money, etc).
But you’re right, not all migrants are treated or categorized the same way.
I’m myself an expatriate, I left my country and immigrated somewhere else. Nobody would ever call me a migrant even if it is technically correct because I don’t match the stereotype (due to my nationality, social class, money, etc).
> it isn’t necessarily about race, more about social class and how much money you have
When did those get disentangled?
When did those get disentangled?
Imagine someone from an old aristocratic family that has a noble title, was known to own land, etc. Even if they lose their money for some reasons they won’t be considered in the same social class as someone who comes from a poor background.
You can do the opposite, imagine someone from a poor neighborhood who then start to gain wealth, their money alone will not make them be part of the upper class (im quite sure there is a woody Allen movie with this exact premise).
What distinguishes social classes is in part wealth, but that’s just one component.
You can do the opposite, imagine someone from a poor neighborhood who then start to gain wealth, their money alone will not make them be part of the upper class (im quite sure there is a woody Allen movie with this exact premise).
What distinguishes social classes is in part wealth, but that’s just one component.
You're right that two different terms are in use, but you're wrong (and unnecessarily provocative) to attribute it to race. There's a lack of symmetry between a wealthy Brit moving to Singapore or Dubai and an economic migrant from Pakistan, say, moving to the UK. That lack of symmetry justifies the different terminology.
It is still a race component because wealthy Chinese people who move to UK with no intention to integrate are not called expats.
I think it's funny too, but a clearer definition of expat vs migrant is seeing if the person would leave if there was a crisis in their new home country.
Expats are on long term vacation. They rarely get citizenship, even more rarely participate in politics, or integrate into the community with the intention of their children being raised there though university years. If there is a war or famine Expats will immediately go back "home".
Migrants on the other and are "your people”. They may not look like you, but they intend to become a permanent fixture in the country. In a war, migrants are the first to volunteer because patriotism is strongest in those who explicitly chose their nation state (and also countries offer citizenship guarantees for soldiers).
Expats are on long term vacation. They rarely get citizenship, even more rarely participate in politics, or integrate into the community with the intention of their children being raised there though university years. If there is a war or famine Expats will immediately go back "home".
Migrants on the other and are "your people”. They may not look like you, but they intend to become a permanent fixture in the country. In a war, migrants are the first to volunteer because patriotism is strongest in those who explicitly chose their nation state (and also countries offer citizenship guarantees for soldiers).
That's not true. I know plenty of non-white expats. At least here it's about money, not skin color.
White probably is a factor, but I think its more they are self sufficient, i.e. they either don't need to work or have been drafted in temporarily to fill a skills gap at the behest of a corporation.
I've always loved how immigration becomes something that is bad and should be stopped when it's done by whites.
You seem to have got it backwards: When it's done by whites – or actually, anglophone whites – it's not even called immigration, because immigration is bad. When others, i.e. non-anglophone non-whites, do it, that is.
>You seem to have got it backwards
Not at all.
>When it's done by whites – or actually, anglophone whites – it's not even called immigration
It's called "gentrification", and it's bad according to the left.
>When others, i.e. non-anglophone non-whites, do it, that is.
When non-Whites do it it's openly celebrated, and more is called for.
You seem to have got it backwards.
Not at all.
>When it's done by whites – or actually, anglophone whites – it's not even called immigration
It's called "gentrification", and it's bad according to the left.
>When others, i.e. non-anglophone non-whites, do it, that is.
When non-Whites do it it's openly celebrated, and more is called for.
You seem to have got it backwards.
Moving to another country is called "gentrification"? What the fuck are you gibbering about?
When white people do it, it's a negative. Keep up. Stop being Europhobic/Anglophobic.
Bullpucky. When white people immigrate, it's perfectly normal. I should know: I've done it not once but twice.
But when white anglophone people do it, it's not only normal, but so extra-chic that they're not even called immigrants but "expats". Pointing out that this is a bit of a silly level of privilege is hardly "Anglophobic". (On the contrary, your claiming that it is comes off as rather like bigoted white Americans wailing that "It's really the white man who's oppressed nowadays" when their privilege is pointed out to them.)
And as a born and bred lifelong European I don't think I'm particularly "Europhobic" either.
But when white anglophone people do it, it's not only normal, but so extra-chic that they're not even called immigrants but "expats". Pointing out that this is a bit of a silly level of privilege is hardly "Anglophobic". (On the contrary, your claiming that it is comes off as rather like bigoted white Americans wailing that "It's really the white man who's oppressed nowadays" when their privilege is pointed out to them.)
And as a born and bred lifelong European I don't think I'm particularly "Europhobic" either.
that's a very american distinction, i think. indians call people "expats" if they are explicitly going to another country to work and have no clear intention of remaining there.
For those intrigued, Greece has a "Golden Visa" program with a mere €250,000 buy-in. Spain has one at €500,000, same as Portugal. I would think Spain, with its larger cities and a language that is more familiar to most Californians than Portuguese, would have greater appeal.
Ireland offers an "investor" residency program with a €1M buy-in. Just as charming and scenic, although worse weather, plus they speak something very like English <jk>.
All of these countries, as well as New Zealand and Australia, offer residency to people of working age with professional qualifications in any of a long list of skills.
Ireland offers an "investor" residency program with a €1M buy-in. Just as charming and scenic, although worse weather, plus they speak something very like English <jk>.
All of these countries, as well as New Zealand and Australia, offer residency to people of working age with professional qualifications in any of a long list of skills.
The US has a similar sort of visa for foreign investors, I think it's this one:
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent...
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent...
Do you have to pay 250,000 for the Visa?
Or just have that much in your bank account?
Or just have that much in your bank account?
See here: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/eu-golden-visas/greece-gold...
It’s effectively a 250k investment requirement (property purchase of similar). So it’s not a net worth thing.
It’s effectively a 250k investment requirement (property purchase of similar). So it’s not a net worth thing.
Usually you need to invest it, but not sure about this specific program. Rental property is a good investment if you want a relatively safe, easy and stable option.
In Portugal it has to be an investment (350K+ depending on where) which ideally is a house. Purchased with the visa in mind, has to be mentioned in the contract. You should involve a lawyer for that. The house (or apartment) can have a mortgage and be rented out. I learned this from selling a house in Cascais to a Taiwanees woman.
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Portugal has been extremely popular with the nomad community too. A good dozen of friends of mine have already moved there through NHR and lots more are in the works. There are also projects like rebase.co, which make things super easy to set up base in the country. It seems like it's getting to a point where Portugal so popular, it might steer people away from itself instead.
It's amazing that people within the country (I live in Portugal and am portuguese) mostly want to get out, and so many people seem to want to get in (to work outside).
I genuinely don't 100% get it.
I genuinely don't 100% get it.
(Comparatively) Rich people unaffected by a country's local social and economic woes want to live there because it's cheap and they can live like kings. Locals want to get out because costs are rising and they're used like slaves.
You'll find similar problems in SE Asian countries. People want to escape their oppressive governments and lift their family out of crushing poverty and unaffordable living. People from North America and Europe see those countries as basically Disney World--just a world of beaches, forests, $1 meals and $100/month apartments, and they're more than happy to move in. Admittedly, I'm a person who also absolutely loved Vietnam (as a middle class white dude who has zero risk of ever running into political or social issues there and could afford anything I want easily), but I know countless Vietnamese people who have recently emigrated from there and hope they'll never have to return.
You'll find similar problems in SE Asian countries. People want to escape their oppressive governments and lift their family out of crushing poverty and unaffordable living. People from North America and Europe see those countries as basically Disney World--just a world of beaches, forests, $1 meals and $100/month apartments, and they're more than happy to move in. Admittedly, I'm a person who also absolutely loved Vietnam (as a middle class white dude who has zero risk of ever running into political or social issues there and could afford anything I want easily), but I know countless Vietnamese people who have recently emigrated from there and hope they'll never have to return.
This is understated. Most people leaving cheap countries are leaving because they hate their own oppressive governments.
Most people moving into cheap countries are going there to live a lifestyle that in unachievable to them in their home countries.
Most people moving into cheap countries are going there to live a lifestyle that in unachievable to them in their home countries.
I’ve thought a lot about that, and most “oppressive governments” only show their face if you are poor. Same for governments known as non-oppressive to be honest.
I was thinking about Monaco, small town, but the actions are a high surveillance state with rigid rules, a monarchy. There simply are no poor people, but if there were, it would be seem as an oppressive autocrat (they have a congress/parlaiment, just like other autocrats do these days). But there aren't poor people, and its more like a perpetual gala.
I was thinking about Monaco, small town, but the actions are a high surveillance state with rigid rules, a monarchy. There simply are no poor people, but if there were, it would be seem as an oppressive autocrat (they have a congress/parlaiment, just like other autocrats do these days). But there aren't poor people, and its more like a perpetual gala.
I noticed this too. Some foreigners will rave about how much more sane the politics is than the US (or wherever home is) and don’t seem to realize: 1) they are out of the loop of local politics, 2) the media is tightly controlled and 3) certain things can’t be said without a visit by the police.
They are so insulated from reality in their expat bubble that all the negatives locals see are actually positives to them.
They are so insulated from reality in their expat bubble that all the negatives locals see are actually positives to them.
I've visited Portugal (Lisbon, Sintra, Porto, Guimarães). It has all the elements of an aspirational European destination minus the cost.
I speak Portuguese (Brazilian) but most Portuguese people in the cities all seem to speak good English. Portugal is beautiful, has temperate weather and long coastline, really good clean food (sopa de legumes, leitão, sardinhas, etc), friendly people and easy access to the rest of the EU. And unlike traditionally aspirational places like Italy or Spain which are harder to move to unless you have the right lineage (for getting a passport), Portugal is within reach of middle class Americans.
That said, I was told that salaries aren't high for locals. For what it's worth, most younger people in Italy and Spain don't think their economic life is all that great either. The money seems to be in northern/central Europe, i.e. well, mostly Germany.
There are many places in the world where it's nice to visit but not to live, I would say, Portugal is the opposite. I could realistically see myself living there.
I speak Portuguese (Brazilian) but most Portuguese people in the cities all seem to speak good English. Portugal is beautiful, has temperate weather and long coastline, really good clean food (sopa de legumes, leitão, sardinhas, etc), friendly people and easy access to the rest of the EU. And unlike traditionally aspirational places like Italy or Spain which are harder to move to unless you have the right lineage (for getting a passport), Portugal is within reach of middle class Americans.
That said, I was told that salaries aren't high for locals. For what it's worth, most younger people in Italy and Spain don't think their economic life is all that great either. The money seems to be in northern/central Europe, i.e. well, mostly Germany.
There are many places in the world where it's nice to visit but not to live, I would say, Portugal is the opposite. I could realistically see myself living there.
I think the reason is that the majority of people moving in to Portugal are nomads who already have high salaries, and the Portuguese trying to get out either have low salaries or are unemployed.
Most of my friends are very much employed, pretty smart (they'd get a job pretty much anywhere, probably FAANG, too) and they are either out of the country or want to get out.
In general, they want higher salaries (like you mentioned), but there also seems to be a clear disdain for most of the portuguese cultural heritage, to be honest. This might be an ecochamber (I'd put money on it being the case) but most people "around me" who are in "the tech world" are pretty much diametrically opposed to most portuguese customs and culture. They don't really identify with the country, the history, the religion, the folklore, the politics, the sports...and if you add the income disparity to it, it makes sense that they want to leave.
If not for the will of my Significant Others throughout the years, I would have definitely left a looooong time ago.
(Man, I find it somewhat atrocious how much we like to tell the great stories of how we went and stole, raped, killed and enslaved during the time of the discoveries, all for our own pleasure (and that of our religion). I guess I can somewhat frame it in its time, but you will never hear me talk about our "great accomplishments" in that regard. I'm deeply ashamed of them, not proud.)
In general, they want higher salaries (like you mentioned), but there also seems to be a clear disdain for most of the portuguese cultural heritage, to be honest. This might be an ecochamber (I'd put money on it being the case) but most people "around me" who are in "the tech world" are pretty much diametrically opposed to most portuguese customs and culture. They don't really identify with the country, the history, the religion, the folklore, the politics, the sports...and if you add the income disparity to it, it makes sense that they want to leave.
If not for the will of my Significant Others throughout the years, I would have definitely left a looooong time ago.
(Man, I find it somewhat atrocious how much we like to tell the great stories of how we went and stole, raped, killed and enslaved during the time of the discoveries, all for our own pleasure (and that of our religion). I guess I can somewhat frame it in its time, but you will never hear me talk about our "great accomplishments" in that regard. I'm deeply ashamed of them, not proud.)
It’s kind of ironic because a lot of Californians moving to Portugal are also trying to escape some aspects of their country’s culture they don’t like. Except they are also escaping insanely high cost of living, increasing violent crime and now almost yearly apocalyptic fires, power outages, dwindling tap water reserves and earthquakes. And unless you live in a very expensive part of town it’s hard to survive without a car in California or most of the U.S. I would love to live in a city like Lisbon where the public transportation is good enough that you don’t really need a car.
> public transportation is good enough that you don’t really need a car.
For having access to good public transportation with regular frequency you need to live somewhere central in most of the big European cities. It might work out for you but locals are getting priced out because of these relatively rich Californian immigrants moving in and pricing out the locals. Now the locals need to move out to suburbs and use cars or not so frequent trains and buses.
For having access to good public transportation with regular frequency you need to live somewhere central in most of the big European cities. It might work out for you but locals are getting priced out because of these relatively rich Californian immigrants moving in and pricing out the locals. Now the locals need to move out to suburbs and use cars or not so frequent trains and buses.
> most people "around me" who are in "the tech world" are pretty much diametrically opposed to most portuguese customs and culture. They don't really identify with the country, the history, the religion, the folklore, the politics, the sports
If you don't identify as Portugese, then most likely all these things will register as pretty decorations for your otherwise cosmopolitan life. If you do identify as Portugese, these things can register as an anchor preventing you from developing and exploring the possibilities of life.
That was certainly how I felt about the UK when I left in (3 decades ago).
If you don't identify as Portugese, then most likely all these things will register as pretty decorations for your otherwise cosmopolitan life. If you do identify as Portugese, these things can register as an anchor preventing you from developing and exploring the possibilities of life.
That was certainly how I felt about the UK when I left in (3 decades ago).
The .com crash made me leave, it was almost impossible to stay employed afterwards, unless one would like to be jumping jobs every couple of months (many of my friends went through this, others created their own companies).
I left, now it is really hard to come back before retirement, due to the ways life drives us around.
It really feels like an ecochamber, or a generation thing maybe, because even with my regular visits I seldom meet people that think that way.
What I do meet, is the difference of working in Portugal, and how things work in central/nothern Europe.
I left, now it is really hard to come back before retirement, due to the ways life drives us around.
It really feels like an ecochamber, or a generation thing maybe, because even with my regular visits I seldom meet people that think that way.
What I do meet, is the difference of working in Portugal, and how things work in central/nothern Europe.
> I find it somewhat atrocious how much we like to tell the great stories of how we went and stole, raped, killed and enslaved during the time of the discoveries, all for our own pleasure (and that of our religion).
Is that really the general consensus over there? I'm trying to think of a way someone would rationalize decimating entire tribes over wood as a good thing but I'm coming up short.
Is that really the general consensus over there? I'm trying to think of a way someone would rationalize decimating entire tribes over wood as a good thing but I'm coming up short.
In my experience people mostly don't really think about these things too deeply. They see it as an epoch where their country was successful, proud, expanding etc. They look at this very superficially and don't think about the harm caused.
I think this becomes more prevalent the poorer/less significant the country is today compared to their great past. It's the "good old times" phenomenon.
I think this becomes more prevalent the poorer/less significant the country is today compared to their great past. It's the "good old times" phenomenon.
Like someone has said, people don't really think about it that much. No one is out there saying we should "conquer the world like we did before", but they do look at that as the "greatest period in our history" and they praise our "courage" for "finding new worlds". Portuguese people were the discoverers, it's like the world is what it is because of our amazing courage and abilities[1]. The fact that we did that while pillaging, murdering and raping is often not even considered.
It does not help that we have "Os Lusíadas" which is a literary wonder in terms of its form, but whose content is basically emphatically praising those times. I hate "Os Lusíadas" not due to its form, like many young people do, but due to its content and how it praises the story of how we went about being warmongers and rapists.
So while you say that people "rationalize", most people really haven't thought about it at all.
[1] We're one of those countries that are so small or have such an inferiority complex that we are obsessed with anything in the news or history of the world that involves us. We go crazy because Obama's dog is a "portuguese water dog", or because "Cristiano Ronaldo" is well-known, or because some character in a sitcom mentioned us. So knowing that we were once "great" or "responsible" for something usually fills us with never-ending pride. I can't get this mentality, and I very much despise it. I guess it just shows how disconnected I am. I love our people, and I think we're genuinely nice, polite and have decent work-ethic, as well as a country with reasonably beautiful landscape, a safe environment and nice weather (not for me, but for most people). However, that's about it. In other words, if a war broke out and I had to choose between leaving the country or fighting for it, I would definitely not fight for it, as it means very little to me. There are many things that mean much more to me than my country, and those I would be willing to fight for.
It does not help that we have "Os Lusíadas" which is a literary wonder in terms of its form, but whose content is basically emphatically praising those times. I hate "Os Lusíadas" not due to its form, like many young people do, but due to its content and how it praises the story of how we went about being warmongers and rapists.
So while you say that people "rationalize", most people really haven't thought about it at all.
[1] We're one of those countries that are so small or have such an inferiority complex that we are obsessed with anything in the news or history of the world that involves us. We go crazy because Obama's dog is a "portuguese water dog", or because "Cristiano Ronaldo" is well-known, or because some character in a sitcom mentioned us. So knowing that we were once "great" or "responsible" for something usually fills us with never-ending pride. I can't get this mentality, and I very much despise it. I guess it just shows how disconnected I am. I love our people, and I think we're genuinely nice, polite and have decent work-ethic, as well as a country with reasonably beautiful landscape, a safe environment and nice weather (not for me, but for most people). However, that's about it. In other words, if a war broke out and I had to choose between leaving the country or fighting for it, I would definitely not fight for it, as it means very little to me. There are many things that mean much more to me than my country, and those I would be willing to fight for.
That makes a lot of sense. I have Portuguese heritage and plan on acquiring citizenship in the future. It's nice to get some insight on the culture over there. Thank you.
My ancestors were Vikings. We all have skeletons in the closet
> rationalize decimating entire tribes over wood
"Look at this cool palace we built and all the rare and exotic wood we used!"
"Where did you get the wood again?"
(See the general argument about decolonisation and re-contextualising within European countries, and fights over things like the Edward Colston statue)
"Look at this cool palace we built and all the rare and exotic wood we used!"
"Where did you get the wood again?"
(See the general argument about decolonisation and re-contextualising within European countries, and fights over things like the Edward Colston statue)
Have you met Americans? And the myth of "conquering the West"?
Heck, we just had a president who thought Andrew Jackson was the best thing since sliced bread - and that guy is sort of the textbook definition of a cheerleader for genocide and slavery.
So, yes, people rationalize a whole lot of truly horrible stuff if it was "their" group doing the horrible stuff.
Edit: To be clear, that's not specifically about Americans or Portuguese. The "when we did it, it was good, but otherwise it's horrible" thing is a pretty universal trait.
Heck, we just had a president who thought Andrew Jackson was the best thing since sliced bread - and that guy is sort of the textbook definition of a cheerleader for genocide and slavery.
So, yes, people rationalize a whole lot of truly horrible stuff if it was "their" group doing the horrible stuff.
Edit: To be clear, that's not specifically about Americans or Portuguese. The "when we did it, it was good, but otherwise it's horrible" thing is a pretty universal trait.
Something interesting that I noticed learning Portuguese many years ago is that the word for "explore" is the same as for "exploit" (explorar).
Not that Portugal unique in its exploitative history, but this might speak to the mentality that the Portuguese "explorers" had when they went out into the world making their "great accomplishments".
Not that Portugal unique in its exploitative history, but this might speak to the mentality that the Portuguese "explorers" had when they went out into the world making their "great accomplishments".
I'd guess it speaks more to how the pronunciation of different words from an ancient language has in some cases converged -- and in other cases diverged -- over time, in its descendant languages.
If they were even all that different words to begin with. (Never actually learned Latin, just picked up words and phrases here and there.) In a mongrel language, originally Germanic but with massive direct and indirect Latin heritage, one can talk about someone's "daring exploits". Whose? Mainly, IME, those of people like Livingston, Stanley, Richard Burton (not the actor)... Explorers. "Exploits" as a(n English) noun does lead the mind more to thoughts of exploring than exploiting, doesn't it?
So go easy on your explorer-exploiters. The Portuguese ones were at least probably no worse, on average, than everyone else's.
("Verbing weirds language", they say, but it doesn't even need to -- language is plenty weird enough to begin with. All of them, probably. (OK, OK, except possibly Volapük and stuff.))
If they were even all that different words to begin with. (Never actually learned Latin, just picked up words and phrases here and there.) In a mongrel language, originally Germanic but with massive direct and indirect Latin heritage, one can talk about someone's "daring exploits". Whose? Mainly, IME, those of people like Livingston, Stanley, Richard Burton (not the actor)... Explorers. "Exploits" as a(n English) noun does lead the mind more to thoughts of exploring than exploiting, doesn't it?
So go easy on your explorer-exploiters. The Portuguese ones were at least probably no worse, on average, than everyone else's.
("Verbing weirds language", they say, but it doesn't even need to -- language is plenty weird enough to begin with. All of them, probably. (OK, OK, except possibly Volapük and stuff.))
I do. If you got a remote gig, you can have a high salary (>100k€). Whereas if you just graduated from a Portugese university and a starting salary could be around 20k€. If you move within EU, you could boost your salary to 50k€.
Portugal is an amazing country with great food, people, and weather.
Portugal is an amazing country with great food, people, and weather.
The people coming in are fleeing the messes they made at home. You probably should get out, before they make the same messes there.
The people in the country don't have access to that favorable tax regime ;)
I noticed when I last visited that many uber rides were like, 2.50 eur.
Kind of makes sense in that context. If youve got money the country is great. If you need to earn it it sucks.
Kind of makes sense in that context. If youve got money the country is great. If you need to earn it it sucks.
>She also wanted her son to have free college tuition in EU nations once the family gains citizenship.
As I see it, immigrants from the US have something to do win from this deal: better way of leaving, affordable homes, lower prices, safety, free healthcare, free tuition, citizenship in EU. I wonder what's in it for the Europeans. As it seems, the Portuguese people have to deal with higher home prices, higher food prices, but maybe there is an upside for them too?
As I see it, immigrants from the US have something to do win from this deal: better way of leaving, affordable homes, lower prices, safety, free healthcare, free tuition, citizenship in EU. I wonder what's in it for the Europeans. As it seems, the Portuguese people have to deal with higher home prices, higher food prices, but maybe there is an upside for them too?
Most European countries have an ever ageing population, so immigration can help counter that trend. Additionally there are labour shortages all over and the taxes immigrants pay also help the country.
Portuguese economy gets a boost. In an aging society, immigration is the only way to maintain economic activity and pay our pensions/benefits.
Hong Kong expats fleeing HK to Singapore are currently gentrifying the SG real estate market. HK'r's are accustomed to paying far more money for much less space. Add this with the fact the incoming HK'r's are effectively "panic leasing" anything they can get their hands on by offering way over the ask.
I have friends who've had their rents increase from +30% to +115% when renewals come up.
I have friends who've had their rents increase from +30% to +115% when renewals come up.
Please correct me, but I thought Singapore was already relatively expensive compared to the rest of Asia given its tax haven status.
Yes, Singapore is expensive and getting worse. Low taxes are nice (for everyone except Americans). SG Citizens enjoy certain benefits like the ability to purchase subsidized housing which helps to reduce the cost of living. Foreigners such as myself are stuck with a high(er) cost of living due to housing and lack of access to local schools (read: expensive private international schools. Being a small island with a dense population, nearly everything is imported.
I met a woman from Singapore who told me that their are ordinary cows in the Singapore zoo. A cow is considered exotic because there aren’t any cattle farms! I thought it was funny.
As someone currently living in Singapore, I can echo this.
Us citizens can exclude $110k USD in foreign income and for Singapore $50k of housing expenses, so $160k USD or $220k SGD.
Massive tax benefits for Americans too.
Massive tax benefits for Americans too.
This story looks like a repetition of the playbook seen in Berlin along all these years. Once defined the Startup Heaven, now the housing market is hotter than ever and rents are skyrocketing too.
A lot of people can't deal or afford the rent anymore, building new apartments is going at a slow pace and whenever a new housing project comes out, it's already sold out. Some houses have reached the 1 Million Euro price.
Lisbon is set to follow this same path which will make everything worse for people already living there.
A lot of people can't deal or afford the rent anymore, building new apartments is going at a slow pace and whenever a new housing project comes out, it's already sold out. Some houses have reached the 1 Million Euro price.
Lisbon is set to follow this same path which will make everything worse for people already living there.
The capital and biggest city of Germany was always going to be expensive. IMO the capital shouldn’t have been moved back to Berlin. Anyway, that’s too late now. What I’d like to see is administration and ministries moved far out of the city into Brandenburg.
Expats? You mean immigrants?
Expats = moving there temporarily, either on assignment or retirement.
Immigrants = moving there to settle down permanently, eventually naturalizing.
You can start off being an expat and turn into an immigrant.
Immigrants = moving there to settle down permanently, eventually naturalizing.
You can start off being an expat and turn into an immigrant.
Semantic drift is a thing.
Expat hasn't really been used with that meaning lately. Same as third/first world countries, gay or terrific.
Expat hasn't really been used with that meaning lately. Same as third/first world countries, gay or terrific.
No this is white people
"white" people can't immigrate? Are they immobile ? What's preventing them from immigrating?
They were being facetious, it's a critique of the racist/classist tendency in our language to label people with brown skin living in another country as "immigrants" but white people as "ex-pats". It's related to the history of WASP colonialism.
I think they tread the line in reverse here: I don't think LA Times would put out news that call for immigrants to "go home" but it's fair game when they call them expats.
They don't like being called immigrants since they use it in a mostly negative context, so they are expats :)
Found the racial grifter
In the words of Smoky the Bear, “Remember, only you, can gentrify the neighborhood.”
Interesting that the Golden Visa is not doing applications in the big cities anymore.
Remember that there is an employment route that doesn't involve purchasing property in Portugal. I think its having 8 portuguese employees
Interesting that the Golden Visa is not doing applications in the big cities anymore.
Remember that there is an employment route that doesn't involve purchasing property in Portugal. I think its having 8 portuguese employees
"Californians are making themselves known in a country once considered the forgotten sibling of Spain."
What does that even mean?
Anyway. Rich foreigners make capital city too expensive for some locals. Hardly news. Come, learn Portuguese, have fun and spend your money. Portugal is a sovereign(ish) nation. Let them accept immigration as they wish. This theatrical hand-wringing doesn't help anyone.
What does that even mean?
Anyway. Rich foreigners make capital city too expensive for some locals. Hardly news. Come, learn Portuguese, have fun and spend your money. Portugal is a sovereign(ish) nation. Let them accept immigration as they wish. This theatrical hand-wringing doesn't help anyone.
California has 40 million people
Any place where just a tiny fraction, less than 1%, want to check out will get a wild market distortion.
Whether it was all those small and medium sized towns getting remote workers during the Alpha and hardcore Delta days
Or places in Portugal
The story will be the same
Any place where just a tiny fraction, less than 1%, want to check out will get a wild market distortion.
Whether it was all those small and medium sized towns getting remote workers during the Alpha and hardcore Delta days
Or places in Portugal
The story will be the same
> Any place where just a tiny fraction, less than 1%, want to check out will get a wild market distortion.
Completely & totally ignores the scale of market impact an expat/wealthy-immigrant people have. There's plenty of people who would rather live somewhere else. Most have limited ability to move somewhere & make an impact.
This story is about as opposite as that as can be told: the worlds 0.03% want cheaper places to live & will go commandeer their way into a conceniently available low priced local economy.
What your thesis totally avoids is that the the wealthy can afford & have the possibility of seeking lower costs of living, of setting themselves up high elsewhere. They will displace both locals & other people who might seek to immigrate to a specificly advantageous place.
There's hardly a scene more tragic to imagine. There may be some modest benefit for this area, but doubtful. This will just create market pressure in one of the few places that had been affordable.
Completely & totally ignores the scale of market impact an expat/wealthy-immigrant people have. There's plenty of people who would rather live somewhere else. Most have limited ability to move somewhere & make an impact.
This story is about as opposite as that as can be told: the worlds 0.03% want cheaper places to live & will go commandeer their way into a conceniently available low priced local economy.
What your thesis totally avoids is that the the wealthy can afford & have the possibility of seeking lower costs of living, of setting themselves up high elsewhere. They will displace both locals & other people who might seek to immigrate to a specificly advantageous place.
There's hardly a scene more tragic to imagine. There may be some modest benefit for this area, but doubtful. This will just create market pressure in one of the few places that had been affordable.
So, which part of what you wrote was the opposite of what I wrote?
California has a lot of people that fit the bill that you just described. This is an LATimes article about Californians in Portugal.
Everywhere I went over the last 2 years had California remote workers doing the same thing in that location. California has a lot of decently capitalized remote workers who dont require to be subjects of California’s or America’s problems.
California has a lot of people that fit the bill that you just described. This is an LATimes article about Californians in Portugal.
Everywhere I went over the last 2 years had California remote workers doing the same thing in that location. California has a lot of decently capitalized remote workers who dont require to be subjects of California’s or America’s problems.
> So, which part of what you wrote was the opposite of what I wrote?
The part where you said any group of people, and I said a very wealthy group of people.
The part where you said any group of people, and I said a very wealthy group of people.
I think there are at least 400,000 Californians (1%) that are wealthy enough and flexible enough to be in that global 0.03% cohort you mentioned
> that the world’s wealthiest 1% is not entirely made up of billionaires, but contains a significant number of people whose assets amount to $759,900 or over. Indeed, there are only 123,000 ultra high net worth individuals (defined as those whose assets exceed $50 million) worldwide. As a group, however, they lay claim to 45% of the world’s wealth. [1]
In this regard, although your estimate is wildly vastly over-optistic, I tend to agree with your premise. Yes, around 400k Californians probably do pose a vast & significant threat to global order & probably are one of the biggest most exploitative & dangerous forces on the planet.
This particular state is home to people vastly more compensated than anywhere else. And they will wreak havoc upon the lower priced markets they seek to exploit & live well amongst.
[1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/who-are-the-1-the-ans...
In this regard, although your estimate is wildly vastly over-optistic, I tend to agree with your premise. Yes, around 400k Californians probably do pose a vast & significant threat to global order & probably are one of the biggest most exploitative & dangerous forces on the planet.
This particular state is home to people vastly more compensated than anywhere else. And they will wreak havoc upon the lower priced markets they seek to exploit & live well amongst.
[1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/who-are-the-1-the-ans...
One thing to keep in mind is that Portugal allows dual citizenship while Spain does not. Greek is much harder to learn than Portuguese. Many folks would spend 5 years, get the EU passport, and then have the option to move in the EU.
People calling themselves "expats" is a bad look. Expats are immigrants.
People with means or with luck of their home economy are learning how destabilizing wealth disparities can be when you move your wealth around outside of the plutonomy. They’re not feeling destabilized, but their new environs is.
> They’re not feeling destabilized, but their new environs is.
That they are feeling (vastly) better off than they would have IS a destabilization, just not in the negative sense.
That they are feeling (vastly) better off than they would have IS a destabilization, just not in the negative sense.
That seems valid.
Did you change the title ?
>Within the mix of retirees, digital nomads and young families fed up with issues including the costs of housing and healthcare, Trumpian politics and pandemic policies,
Given that Trump is not the president since a long time and California is the most progressive US state, I'd think that Californians are fleeing progressive politics, not Trumpian politics.
Given that Trump is not the president since a long time and California is the most progressive US state, I'd think that Californians are fleeing progressive politics, not Trumpian politics.
I was born in the US and came to Portugal 2.5 years ago. After dealing with the typical California urbanite, I feel for my people. The issue isn't just the price increases in many things in my home country. It is also that these people, once they are allowed to vote in Portugal, will push for the same stuff that they did in California and screw my politically/socially moderate home country. Very sad, maybe I will start voting accordingly to counterbalance this.
Californians are fleeing high prices, not progressive politics. The progressive politics there have attracted people for decades, so much so that it’s become unaffordable.
Yeah, no.
Paying $3M for a house in SF but public schools aren’t an option because “math is racist” is fleeing progressive politics.
Paying $3M for a house in SF but public schools aren’t an option because “math is racist” is fleeing progressive politics.
Show me your data, and I’ll validate your claim.
The great weight of stories published on this question indicates that people are vacating to live less expensively/more lavishly, not to be with people less politically progressive. Are there a few such people? Sure. But they’re hardly the majority.
There are a lot of reasons why people choose not to send their kids to public school. Sometimes it’s because they perceive the public school as unsafe. The primary reason isn’t because parents disagree with the math curriculum, but because they want to give their kids a leg up in the fiercely competitive race to get into a top university. When everyone around you is wealthy and smart, parents try to find whatever advantage they can.
The great weight of stories published on this question indicates that people are vacating to live less expensively/more lavishly, not to be with people less politically progressive. Are there a few such people? Sure. But they’re hardly the majority.
There are a lot of reasons why people choose not to send their kids to public school. Sometimes it’s because they perceive the public school as unsafe. The primary reason isn’t because parents disagree with the math curriculum, but because they want to give their kids a leg up in the fiercely competitive race to get into a top university. When everyone around you is wealthy and smart, parents try to find whatever advantage they can.
“Parents want schools that are safe, they want their kids good at math”.
Two things progressive schools don’t offer.
Two things progressive schools don’t offer.
Says who? It feels like you’re just trolling and don’t have any actual useful information to add.
https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/projected-k-12-drops-in-enro...
That many families aren’t leaving the Bay Area they are just pulling their kids out of school.
Why if not the progressive curricula?
That many families aren’t leaving the Bay Area they are just pulling their kids out of school.
Why if not the progressive curricula?
The article you cited provided the primary reasons why enrollments are declining:
""" Slow population growth: In the 1960s, the population in California grew 26%. Between 2000 and 2010, growth slowed to 15%, then 6.5% between 2010 and 2020. In 2020, there was a net migration loss of 0.5%, signaling that the state’s projection for the next decade, a slim 5.2 percent, may be high.
Aging population: In 1970, the median age in California was 28; in 2020 it was 38. In 2030, it will creep up to 40.
Birth rates: In the 1950s, the birth rate in California was 25 per 1,000 people; in 2020, it was 12. The previous low of 12.6 was in 1933, during the Great Depression.
Delayed marriage: In 2020, for the first time, women’s average age of marrying was over 30. """
""" Slow population growth: In the 1960s, the population in California grew 26%. Between 2000 and 2010, growth slowed to 15%, then 6.5% between 2010 and 2020. In 2020, there was a net migration loss of 0.5%, signaling that the state’s projection for the next decade, a slim 5.2 percent, may be high.
Aging population: In 1970, the median age in California was 28; in 2020 it was 38. In 2030, it will creep up to 40.
Birth rates: In the 1950s, the birth rate in California was 25 per 1,000 people; in 2020, it was 12. The previous low of 12.6 was in 1933, during the Great Depression.
Delayed marriage: In 2020, for the first time, women’s average age of marrying was over 30. """
It dropped 5% just this past year. The population did not decline 5% this past year.
And sorry, "slow population growth" is the same as "increasing population growth", so it doesn't explain a decrease.
And sorry, "slow population growth" is the same as "increasing population growth", so it doesn't explain a decrease.
Gentrification isn't a bad thing or not any worse than what has been happening. Take Brooklyn in NYC it went from.. British farmers, to Irish, to black, to Jewish, to Russians, to Spanish... Things change world changes everything changes
It seems shortsighted to move to tiny coastal city in Europe that you can probably see in a weekend visit, where you rarely get to express yourself in your own language, spending years constantly frustrating and annoying people when speaking their language, having no cultural attachment, possibly destroying your career, and the sinking feeling that you may never see most of your friends and family again let alone that exciting spontaneous visit.
I thought it was because you could get a place on the beach at a considerably lower price than California but the city mentioned, Cascais, seems similarly priced. The lower crime rate is a compelling reason to move but still seems insufficient.