System76 Lemur Pro Linux laptop with 14 hours of battery life(system76.com)
system76.com
System76 Lemur Pro Linux laptop with 14 hours of battery life
https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
377 comments
I had this laptop, but ultimately replaced it with a 14” M1 Max. Some thoughts:
- The screen is so much worse, in every way, than a MacBook. A “low resolution” (more like, not high dpi) matte screen vs the M1 screen, there is no comparison. When I first got this machine, my eyes would have to adjust to the screen, and it felt so blurry compared to my works retina Touch Bar Mac
- PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I’ve used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it’s money… But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I’m sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola.
- You would need to be pretty comfortable on a command line, and using Linux, to be comfortable using a Linux desktop. This computer would not be okay for my wife.
- The keyboard keys started showing wear and tear after less than 9 months. The keys started to peel, basically, the home-row keys all lost their gloss coat where you could see it visibly that usage had caused a hole in the keys glossy layer.
- I had a fully specced i7, and the performance was great. It out performed my works 2019 i7 MacBook with Touchbar. As for my M1… the M1 is faster.
- I loved how the screen opened all the way 180 degrees, it was something I didn’t think I’d even care about, but it was nice to have.
- The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures. No nice click feeling. TINY. THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with such small touchpads? It is maddening.
- It would charge over USB-C, but there was only 1 USB-C port, so that was kind of annoying. It did have a regular charger…. That was like the windows laptop I had in 2005. Short cord, and don’t accidentally trip on the cord while it is charging, or else GG laptop.
Overall, I was glad I tried it. For a variety of reasons, I want there to be viable Mac alternatives in the field. I ended up selling my Lemur Pro a few months after I got my 14” M1.
I don't want to comment much on the rest, but the whole trope of: a Linux machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable with the cli" needs to die. My partner is essentially computer illiterate (she didn't know about keyboard shortcuts, even for copy paste before we met and still doesn't really use them) and has been using my old Ubuntu laptop for years. The only thing I do is tell her from time to time not just to click away the update (she is a good example why having optional updates is not a good thing). Her issues are pretty much the same she would have for a Windows or Mac machine, usually related to how something in a word processor works. Also my mother (78yo) is using Linux as a only system, and she does a lot of photography and video work. She has actually even become quite competent with the cli by now, just because she likes to try stuff.
The issue is that open source distributions don't have access to the level of testing and quality control that the proprietary desktop duopoly do. Microsoft and Apple can spend millions of dollars to make it very unlikely that a system update will break your system. And even if when it breaks, there is such a large user base that a solution will usually be easy to find.
Linux ditros don't have that. In my experience, Ubuntu and Fedora don't have that level of stability especially when running a heavy desktop like Gnome or KDE. My Arch laptop very stable, but I'm running a minimalist desktop. In the rare occasions where something goes wrong I have the experience and inclination to quickly learn to fix it.
I wish there were more competition in the commercial space, but I'm not sure that it's even a good idea for open source to try to match the GUI administration utilities from the proprietary OS's. It's far too much work troubleshooting weird corner cases. I wholeheartedly recommend Linux or open source for people who want the level of control over their machines that open source allows. But for people who just want their machine to work, it's reasonable to cede control to Apple or Microsoft.
Maybe PopOS, with it's backing from a commercial vendor on limited hardware will change this.
Linux ditros don't have that. In my experience, Ubuntu and Fedora don't have that level of stability especially when running a heavy desktop like Gnome or KDE. My Arch laptop very stable, but I'm running a minimalist desktop. In the rare occasions where something goes wrong I have the experience and inclination to quickly learn to fix it.
I wish there were more competition in the commercial space, but I'm not sure that it's even a good idea for open source to try to match the GUI administration utilities from the proprietary OS's. It's far too much work troubleshooting weird corner cases. I wholeheartedly recommend Linux or open source for people who want the level of control over their machines that open source allows. But for people who just want their machine to work, it's reasonable to cede control to Apple or Microsoft.
Maybe PopOS, with it's backing from a commercial vendor on limited hardware will change this.
> The issue is that open source distributions don't have access to the level of testing and quality control that the proprietary desktop duopoly do.
In the case of Windows, there's a lot of onus on the OEM. Of course, most OEMs will not test Linux at all, so either you find a vendor that supports Linux or you YOLO it. Of course, if you YOLO, you're so helping ensure the market continues to make _more_ Windows-only hardware, so you can look forward to even more YOLO.
> I wish there were more competition in the commercial space,
Unlike in previous decades*, you actually can buy laptops with Linux pre-installed, from vendors that actually support it. This is huge.
If you want Linux that Just Works, for the love of God, stop buying Windows hardware. Sometimes I think the smartest thing Apple ever did was require Apple hardware to run OSX.
*Ask this greybeard how he knows.
In the case of Windows, there's a lot of onus on the OEM. Of course, most OEMs will not test Linux at all, so either you find a vendor that supports Linux or you YOLO it. Of course, if you YOLO, you're so helping ensure the market continues to make _more_ Windows-only hardware, so you can look forward to even more YOLO.
> I wish there were more competition in the commercial space,
Unlike in previous decades*, you actually can buy laptops with Linux pre-installed, from vendors that actually support it. This is huge.
If you want Linux that Just Works, for the love of God, stop buying Windows hardware. Sometimes I think the smartest thing Apple ever did was require Apple hardware to run OSX.
*Ask this greybeard how he knows.
And yet, I have never heard of a Linux update which bricked your system, something that has happened with both Windows and OSX.
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/this-macos-update-is-bricking...
https://www.itpro.com/hardware/358739/apple-releases-macos-u...
https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-10-update-now-brickin...
Searching Linux update bricking systems brought up nothing relevant. The closest I could find was a forum post by a user complaining about the update bricking their “experimental system”.
The Macos examples are particularly bad. Bricking systems with logic boards replaced by Apple repair and because you connected to “unauthorized” USB devices.
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/this-macos-update-is-bricking...
https://www.itpro.com/hardware/358739/apple-releases-macos-u...
https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-10-update-now-brickin...
Searching Linux update bricking systems brought up nothing relevant. The closest I could find was a forum post by a user complaining about the update bricking their “experimental system”.
The Macos examples are particularly bad. Bricking systems with logic boards replaced by Apple repair and because you connected to “unauthorized” USB devices.
Literally the first time I installed Ubuntu in 2009, I booted into it, it asked me to install a bunch of updates, and when I did the required reboot, it dropped me into the boot terminal with a bunch of vague errors.
Linux is not infallible.
Linux is not infallible.
You have not heard of it? Well, you're replying to someone who's using Arch. With Arch, you get into trouble all the time, but if you're well versed with Linux (and Arch) you can fix it.
I'm using Arch, and ZFS, on my work laptop. A month ago, when I update my kernel, boom I had to use Systemrescue because it would no longer boot ZFS root. And of course just at that day I lost my Ventoy USB stick (probably my 2 y.o. son got rid of it ...)
I'm using Arch, and ZFS, on my work laptop. A month ago, when I update my kernel, boom I had to use Systemrescue because it would no longer boot ZFS root. And of course just at that day I lost my Ventoy USB stick (probably my 2 y.o. son got rid of it ...)
The command line is a problem for intermediate users. I consider Linus from LTT to be at the upper end of intermediate and he was borderline incompetent in Linux. When you have enough knowledge to be dangerous and the hubris to assume you know everything you should need to know, you will find yourself in deep trouble quickly.
The most computer illiterate will be fine, but they will not be buying a machine like this. The most advanced people will probably be fine mainly because their expectations will be in check. I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old to debug issues in windows and linux because his expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated too quickly.
Anyway, I think success in linux is more mental than anything. The terminal shouldn't be the frightening thing people like to think it is. It's just FUD. I'm in the terminal all the time on my Mac and no one seems to have an issue with that.
The most computer illiterate will be fine, but they will not be buying a machine like this. The most advanced people will probably be fine mainly because their expectations will be in check. I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old to debug issues in windows and linux because his expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated too quickly.
Anyway, I think success in linux is more mental than anything. The terminal shouldn't be the frightening thing people like to think it is. It's just FUD. I'm in the terminal all the time on my Mac and no one seems to have an issue with that.
> I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old to debug issues in windows and linux because his expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated too quickly.
Please persist in your effort. Teaching your kid logical thinking and scientific method ("debugging") and helping him not to be easily frustrated are probably skills that he will need anyway later on.
Please persist in your effort. Teaching your kid logical thinking and scientific method ("debugging") and helping him not to be easily frustrated are probably skills that he will need anyway later on.
Thanks, I agree 100%. It's a process, he's a hormonal teenager at the moment that I have to wear white gloves with when it comes to these things. We are making progress, tho... since I got him the Steamdeck he's been in Linux about 90% of the time and asking tons of questions.
Windows is the same way. But even worse, since instead of a broken machine, you’ll enroll in some bot-net. Someone who knows enough to be dangerous in Windows starts downloaded and running random executables from the internet when things go wrong.
It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable. We've had plenty of examples of totally tech illiterate people using linux with zero problems since 1999 but they're totally irrelevant because they happen to be the people who are on the narrow set of rails that don't touch linux's rough edges.
To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common people need to do can't be done without the CLI.
And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the case of a specific person who has a specific common need that linux falls over at.
To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common people need to do can't be done without the CLI.
And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the case of a specific person who has a specific common need that linux falls over at.
How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people?
I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux. The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation, another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and spy on them.
Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there. Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine be praised).
It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you have to actively persue it.
I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going on.
I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux. The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation, another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and spy on them.
Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there. Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine be praised).
It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you have to actively persue it.
I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going on.
It's all software really. Most people would be fine without Adobe or Microsoft Office or Google Docs. We don't need to train kids with GitHub, Sibelius or Dorico, the list goes on. Concepts don't require application-specific training and the FOSS options are largely good enough if not better than the proprietary competitors.
And would be even better and improve faster with more users.
> How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people?
When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft employees a small army of user experience designers to ensure it’s a great experience. It’s not perfect, but I can do everything I need to do using the GUI.
This isn’t a case of learning how to do the same thing differently. The GUI is objectively better for most consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies more heavily on CLI.
When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft employees a small army of user experience designers to ensure it’s a great experience. It’s not perfect, but I can do everything I need to do using the GUI.
This isn’t a case of learning how to do the same thing differently. The GUI is objectively better for most consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies more heavily on CLI.
Holistic "experience" to me includes privacy protections. Windows spies on the user at every turn. GUI elements are not hard to get right. Launchers make it all even easier.
That's fair. For those who value privacy over ease of use, Linux is the way to go. I'm just not sure that group is very large. I don't, for example.
Can you name one thing that a NOOB-friendly Linux requires the command line for that a technically illiterate user can accomplish in MacOS / Windows?
Changing mouse acceleration settings is one I ran into, there was no option in the UI at all and google searches brought up config file edits that went completely over my head. I think it was on either Pop or Fedora KDE.
In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.
In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.
At least on my Arch KDE setup it's System Settings -> Input Devices -> Mouse and I've got an Acceleration Profile option between Flat or Adaptive. I can also just open up the settings and search for "acceleration" to get there. I can also just pop open the "start menu" (or whatever you choose to call it for KDE) and type "acceleration" and the first option is "Mouse"
I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration set to anything non-standard.
I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration set to anything non-standard.
Sadly this isn’t so easy on Ubuntu. And it’s not like we can tell everyone to “just use Arch,” because Arch has its own tough edges.
Oh yeah, Arch isn't for the faint of heart, but this should work on any distro running KDE. A quick check tells me Ubuntu is running Gnome 3 by default where you need Gnome Tweak Tool to access the same setting. That sucks, I agree, and I hate that Gnome is trying to go the direction of mobile by locking things down and removing configuration, but considering the OSX doesn't expose this setting at all and you need either the terminal or a 3rd party app to modify it, I also don't think that not having this setting readily available disqualifies Linux from being usable without the terminal, unless we're going to claim the same is true of Macs.
This does not require CLI. https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/mouse-sensiti...
GNOME tweak tool has even more options, also from a GUI: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Tweaks
GNOME tweak tool has even more options, also from a GUI: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Tweaks
That adjusts speed, not acceleration. Tweak Tool is indeed what’s needed, but it’s not apparent to a newbie. I spent hours finding that particular app when I first used Ubuntu. It’s absurd that that kind of functionality isn’t built in.
I thought that was a acceleration.
Perhaps they'd not know of gnome tweaks, though they could remember Power Tools from Windows....
Perhaps they'd not know of gnome tweaks, though they could remember Power Tools from Windows....
Mouse speed is how far the cursor moves for some distance of physical mouse movement.
Mouse acceleration additionally makes the cursor's speed increase when the mouse's acceleration (change of speed over time) is faster.
Mouse acceleration is annoying (bordering on infuriating, imo) because it changes cursor movement from an easy 1:1 mapping of mouse movement->cursor movement by adding an additional dimension. You then not only have to keep in mind how far you're moving your mouse, but also how quickly you're moving it. I can't fathom why UI designers seem to think that it's so great that it should be present with no ability to disable it.
Mouse acceleration is annoying (bordering on infuriating, imo) because it changes cursor movement from an easy 1:1 mapping of mouse movement->cursor movement by adding an additional dimension. You then not only have to keep in mind how far you're moving your mouse, but also how quickly you're moving it. I can't fathom why UI designers seem to think that it's so great that it should be present with no ability to disable it.
And there is literally no way to do it on Mac. Or, you know, disable scroll acceleration, an abomination that needs to die.
This is quite typical of the kinds of things you need to “dip into the CLI” for Linux that people complain about.
Things that other OS’es usually don’t even allow.
Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and it’s usually a single liner at that, most online resources tend to provide the single liner that one can use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want, because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly replicate with their mouse or trackpad.
The most common example of this is that pretty much every application will give its installation instructions as:
sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome).
When you can just as well go to the software center, search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to thunderbird.com, download the package and double click/install.
However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to “dip into the CLI”.
Things that other OS’es usually don’t even allow.
Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and it’s usually a single liner at that, most online resources tend to provide the single liner that one can use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want, because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly replicate with their mouse or trackpad.
The most common example of this is that pretty much every application will give its installation instructions as:
sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome).
When you can just as well go to the software center, search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to thunderbird.com, download the package and double click/install.
However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to “dip into the CLI”.
As mentioned in a parent thread, compare the installation instructions between Windows/OSX/Linux for Radarr: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
Radarr needs functionality that is more specialized than most apps so there's special instructions and edge cases on all three platforms. But the Linux version is significantly more complicated because Linux doesn't provide as many out of the box tools for installation that works across all distributions like Windows or Mac.
Radarr needs functionality that is more specialized than most apps so there's special instructions and edge cases on all three platforms. But the Linux version is significantly more complicated because Linux doesn't provide as many out of the box tools for installation that works across all distributions like Windows or Mac.
I mean I'd just use containers (e.g. Docker) for it with a reverse proxy (also container). But I also don't think this is software which you're supposed to run on a System 76 laptop. You're supposed to run it on a 24/7 machine, a server. Could be a Raspberry Pi (if you can get hold of one :P).
Solving problems. Like, the happy path may have a UI, but if that doesn't work, or isn't quite right, any troubleshooting most likely will not have a UI.
Installing NVIDIA drivers?
Why would you be installing NVidia drivers in a machine that has come with Linux preloaded and graphics drivers already installed?
Oh, you’re doing an Apple to Oranges comparison between Linux manually installed on a machine vs Mac or Windows coming preloaded on the machine?
Because if you did an apples to apples comparison, any decent computer with Linux preinstalled will come with all the drivers installed as well. And when it comes to manually installing, installing drivers for Windows can also be a pain, and don’t even get started on trying to install Mac on a machine it didn’t come preinstalled on. Hackintoshes are hard to make work even for experts.
Oh, you’re doing an Apple to Oranges comparison between Linux manually installed on a machine vs Mac or Windows coming preloaded on the machine?
Because if you did an apples to apples comparison, any decent computer with Linux preinstalled will come with all the drivers installed as well. And when it comes to manually installing, installing drivers for Windows can also be a pain, and don’t even get started on trying to install Mac on a machine it didn’t come preinstalled on. Hackintoshes are hard to make work even for experts.
Last time I ran Ubuntu, (which has admittedly been years) it'd start with the open source drivers by default and prompt you with an to install the proprietary drivers. Doing so was two clicks.
Is this no longer true?
Is this no longer true?
Unfortunately, you are wrong.
I have quarter of century experience working on Linux including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23 years.
Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job and I jumped the ship for M1 MacBook Pro. It still has a lot of problems but at least I have more time to do my actual work.
I understand I might just becoming less tolerant of wasting time on things that should just work (my actual work being more and more distant from tinkering with OS internals).
But, if I with all my experience am spending time keeping it alive, what has to do a person that has no idea about systemd or pulse audio or dealing with failed upgrades or anything else? Essentially -- you are using it until first problem happens and then you can either reinstall it from scratch or switch to Windows or Mac.
I still keep a Linux laptop dedicated for critical security tasks (I don't trust Apple this much) and a number of Linux VMs (I am running small datacenter at home).
I have quarter of century experience working on Linux including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23 years.
Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job and I jumped the ship for M1 MacBook Pro. It still has a lot of problems but at least I have more time to do my actual work.
I understand I might just becoming less tolerant of wasting time on things that should just work (my actual work being more and more distant from tinkering with OS internals).
But, if I with all my experience am spending time keeping it alive, what has to do a person that has no idea about systemd or pulse audio or dealing with failed upgrades or anything else? Essentially -- you are using it until first problem happens and then you can either reinstall it from scratch or switch to Windows or Mac.
I still keep a Linux laptop dedicated for critical security tasks (I don't trust Apple this much) and a number of Linux VMs (I am running small datacenter at home).
In my experience, the people who spend so much time maintaining their Linux are the people hacking on their OS. Which is something I encourage; the customizability of Linux is part of what makes it so great.
But if you load up the newest Ubuntu lts on a laptop and never fiddle with configs, switch display managers/ desktops, etc, then there will be zero maintenance required.
But if you load up the newest Ubuntu lts on a laptop and never fiddle with configs, switch display managers/ desktops, etc, then there will be zero maintenance required.
Also, buy Linux preinstalled and fully supported by the vendor. Saves so many headaches.
I agree, if you install and never do anything with it it will usually work. But that isn't very high bar for usability. What about people who actually use their machines for anything else than just browsing Internets? I had people break it even in this relatively simple case.
I'll give you an example. I am using an external DAC (connected over Toslink). It starts up automatically when it detects digital audio signal and shuts down when the signal stops. Unfortunately, the startup sequence takes couple of seconds (it has a delay of 2s and then slowly increases the volume over 4s, can't be configured).
So in the default configuration, PipeWire insists to turn off the audio whenever there is no client to play anything for more than X seconds.
This is super annoying, every time you try to play youtube video after going to kitchen for coffee you are loosing first couple of seconds of audio.
This can be changed (remove a module that causes automatic suspend), but over last couple of years I had to redo this configuration at least 5-6 times after various PipeWire upgrades because PipeWire developers don't give a shit about user configuration and are happy to override it or in fact do some stupid things like move it from /etc to /usr/share so you are left guessing why your config files no longer do what they were supposed to do.
I'll give you an example. I am using an external DAC (connected over Toslink). It starts up automatically when it detects digital audio signal and shuts down when the signal stops. Unfortunately, the startup sequence takes couple of seconds (it has a delay of 2s and then slowly increases the volume over 4s, can't be configured).
So in the default configuration, PipeWire insists to turn off the audio whenever there is no client to play anything for more than X seconds.
This is super annoying, every time you try to play youtube video after going to kitchen for coffee you are loosing first couple of seconds of audio.
This can be changed (remove a module that causes automatic suspend), but over last couple of years I had to redo this configuration at least 5-6 times after various PipeWire upgrades because PipeWire developers don't give a shit about user configuration and are happy to override it or in fact do some stupid things like move it from /etc to /usr/share so you are left guessing why your config files no longer do what they were supposed to do.
ArchWiki is a well-known recommendation to every newbie who has technical needs.
Quote:
"PulseAudio will first look for configuration files in the home directory ~/.config/pulse/, and if they are not found, the system-wide configuration from /etc/pulse/ will be applied.
Tip: It is strongly suggested not to edit system-wide configuration files, but rather edit user ones. Create the ~/.config/pulse directory, then copy the system configuration files into it and edit according to your need. Make sure you keep user configuration in sync with changes to the packaged files in /etc/pulse/. Otherwise, PulseAudio may refuse to start due to configuration errors."
"[...]or by creating a new file that includes it with the syntax .include /etc/pulse/name. For simple changes the latter is preferred because the user will not be required to update the file when system-wide defaults change."
So this particular example is moot unless PA somehow disregards the /home config and loads its system-wide config anyway or does some weird overrides. Any details or other examples?
"PulseAudio will first look for configuration files in the home directory ~/.config/pulse/, and if they are not found, the system-wide configuration from /etc/pulse/ will be applied.
Tip: It is strongly suggested not to edit system-wide configuration files, but rather edit user ones. Create the ~/.config/pulse directory, then copy the system configuration files into it and edit according to your need. Make sure you keep user configuration in sync with changes to the packaged files in /etc/pulse/. Otherwise, PulseAudio may refuse to start due to configuration errors."
"[...]or by creating a new file that includes it with the syntax .include /etc/pulse/name. For simple changes the latter is preferred because the user will not be required to update the file when system-wide defaults change."
So this particular example is moot unless PA somehow disregards the /home config and loads its system-wide config anyway or does some weird overrides. Any details or other examples?
I am sorry, I made a mistake, it was PipeWire not Pulse.
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/pipewire-config-files-just-d...
I normally don't edit the text substantially after somebody responds but this time I corrected Pulse to PipeWire not to slander Pulse developers for no reason.
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/pipewire-config-files-just-d...
I normally don't edit the text substantially after somebody responds but this time I corrected Pulse to PipeWire not to slander Pulse developers for no reason.
Eh, maybe this behavior was changed, but PipeWire works in the same way ATM:
"The PipeWire configuration template file is located in /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf. You can copy and edit the file to /etc/pipewire/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf. Since 0.3.45 you can also copy fragments of the config file to a file in the directories /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/, /etc/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/."
TBH, while this is a common pattern across Linux applications, the thought to look for override location in the /home folder comes solely from experience and I am not aware of any place suggesting it. I tend to treat all of root as if it was an immutable file system that is a hassle to edit manually. Saves a lot of headache.
"The PipeWire configuration template file is located in /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf. You can copy and edit the file to /etc/pipewire/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf. Since 0.3.45 you can also copy fragments of the config file to a file in the directories /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/, /etc/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/."
TBH, while this is a common pattern across Linux applications, the thought to look for override location in the /home folder comes solely from experience and I am not aware of any place suggesting it. I tend to treat all of root as if it was an immutable file system that is a hassle to edit manually. Saves a lot of headache.
Run Linux everyday. I am a heavy tech user. Multi polyglot developer.. what are you doing that turns admin into a full time job..
Even my stupid obtuse use case is not that heavy.
Even my stupid obtuse use case is not that heavy.
I've been running Linux for most of the last 25 years, too. But I've mostly
learned how to keep things simple.
I buy high-DPI Dell Precision laptops. They're pricey, and the build-quality is meh, but they come preloaded with Linux. Everything works. I leave all but a few settings on factory defaults, and I never run anything but a "Long Term Support" release of the OS. In case of hardware issues, I buy an on-site service plan.
I won't claim that it's perfect. But I spend less than 20 hours a year "keeping it working." Which is less than some of my MacOS coworkers spend fighting with Docker and other Unix tools on the Mac, so it's a wash. It's not like getting the Python development ecosystem to work on an M1 Mac is all sweetness and joy.
One secret to my success is that I try very hard not to customize anything. To paraphrase Yoda, once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
I do not recommend Linux for casual users. But for developers who deploy on Linux, it can be a very reasonable choice.
I buy high-DPI Dell Precision laptops. They're pricey, and the build-quality is meh, but they come preloaded with Linux. Everything works. I leave all but a few settings on factory defaults, and I never run anything but a "Long Term Support" release of the OS. In case of hardware issues, I buy an on-site service plan.
I won't claim that it's perfect. But I spend less than 20 hours a year "keeping it working." Which is less than some of my MacOS coworkers spend fighting with Docker and other Unix tools on the Mac, so it's a wash. It's not like getting the Python development ecosystem to work on an M1 Mac is all sweetness and joy.
One secret to my success is that I try very hard not to customize anything. To paraphrase Yoda, once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
I do not recommend Linux for casual users. But for developers who deploy on Linux, it can be a very reasonable choice.
> I have quarter of century experience working on Linux including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23 years.
> Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job
These two statements are not unrelated.
> Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job
These two statements are not unrelated.
No one is claiming Linux is bad for very basic users. It’s fine for people who only ever use bowsers. Linux is also great for developers. It’s most of us in between who struggle. The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google and more time installing an additional tool. I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
Linux developers need to start caring about UX if they want the OS to appreciably rise above 1-2% consumer. Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not when I want to install or configure an app, and certainly not when I want to update a driver or setting.
Linux developers need to start caring about UX if they want the OS to appreciably rise above 1-2% consumer. Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not when I want to install or configure an app, and certainly not when I want to update a driver or setting.
I disagree on not using the cli for installing things etc. Instructions on commands are much easier than instruction about the gui, because they are easily copy pastable.
One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for installing python and packages for building cython modules. I have students who are very much intermediate Windows users, but explaining to them how to get the development (they need python for experiment control and analysis) environment going is really painful. They often take days to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much easier, I just give them the commands to install the packages in an email.
One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for installing python and packages for building cython modules. I have students who are very much intermediate Windows users, but explaining to them how to get the development (they need python for experiment control and analysis) environment going is really painful. They often take days to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much easier, I just give them the commands to install the packages in an email.
Your use case is for developers, and as above, I agree that CLI is easier for that demographic. I am referring to the people between developers and "only ever use browsers." For them I strongly disagree with the notion of telling them to blindly copy and paste sudo commands into terminal. And if the implication is that they should just become proficient with using terminal, then I strongly disagree with anyone having to learn a new skill to install and configure apps and services. We have easy, well tested and well adopted conventions for software now. It's time to accept what is, instead of fighting for what you think others should like.
First of all, training users to copy stuff into a terminal is just a bad idea.
Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command line.
It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and easy to use package manager, and if users are having trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to rectify that.
Also, if you’re targeting power users who are familiar with the command line, that’s one thing. But right now linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for everyone and that’s a very hard rope to walk
Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command line.
It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and easy to use package manager, and if users are having trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to rectify that.
Also, if you’re targeting power users who are familiar with the command line, that’s one thing. But right now linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for everyone and that’s a very hard rope to walk
> I disagree on not using the cli for installing things
I think that it depends on who the target audience is. For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I agree with the parent comment that you should be able to do everything without opening the CLI.
For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)
I think that it depends on who the target audience is. For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I agree with the parent comment that you should be able to do everything without opening the CLI.
For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)
> The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
There exists a Docker image: https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to be absurd: https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Doc....
There exists a Docker image: https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to be absurd: https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Doc....
While true, this appears to require the CLI. As above, I strongly believe that the CLI should never ever, for any reason ever, be required to install apps. Dockers are also not exactly plug and play, and some understanding of what dockers are, how to maintain them, how to grant file and folder permissions, and how to update packages is required. Your suggestion presents a new set of problems.
> I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
That's because it's written by developers. Devs are generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people" might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would they be better off compiling software from source. It's a known problem: documentation writing is one of the most hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody reads the docs"...
In this particular case: the docs here are really, really badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the wiki try to be helpful:
> If you want an easy life, follow this community provided and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install.
There's a link to the script below. That's already the best you can expect from developers who are not specifically paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a framework that generates the installers automatically). The vast majority of devs never consider that people would like to easily and quickly install their software to try it out, then uninstall it if it's not to their liking.
Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/ just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up there with every `make install` I execute.
I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way of working on and with software, just thought I'll share what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things for two decades...
> The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google
It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS, but the initial research suggested it's even worse there (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second, and last" policy for some reason).
> Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI.
Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have their place - they present very different trade-off between accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+ years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI on home computers. Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.
[1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Pro...
[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...
[3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.
That's because it's written by developers. Devs are generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people" might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would they be better off compiling software from source. It's a known problem: documentation writing is one of the most hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody reads the docs"...
In this particular case: the docs here are really, really badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the wiki try to be helpful:
> If you want an easy life, follow this community provided and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install.
There's a link to the script below. That's already the best you can expect from developers who are not specifically paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a framework that generates the installers automatically). The vast majority of devs never consider that people would like to easily and quickly install their software to try it out, then uninstall it if it's not to their liking.
Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/ just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up there with every `make install` I execute.
I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way of working on and with software, just thought I'll share what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things for two decades...
> The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google
It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS, but the initial research suggested it's even worse there (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second, and last" policy for some reason).
> Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI.
Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have their place - they present very different trade-off between accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+ years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI on home computers. Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.
[1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Pro...
[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...
[3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.
>That's because it's written by developers.
I understand this is the fault of the developer, but that's not my problem. I'm a consumer and I want my application to install in under 60 seconds like it does in Windows. Too many developers rely on the CLI in Linux, and this means that, too often, my Linux experience is much worse than my Windows experience. I don't care who is to blame. It just is.
>Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.
I agree. To be clear, the CLI has many benefits. It just has so few, comparatively, in the consumer space, and developers seem adamant to push consumers to use the CLI in Linux. For 99% of my use cases, everything is easier and faster in a GUI.
I understand this is the fault of the developer, but that's not my problem. I'm a consumer and I want my application to install in under 60 seconds like it does in Windows. Too many developers rely on the CLI in Linux, and this means that, too often, my Linux experience is much worse than my Windows experience. I don't care who is to blame. It just is.
>Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.
I agree. To be clear, the CLI has many benefits. It just has so few, comparatively, in the consumer space, and developers seem adamant to push consumers to use the CLI in Linux. For 99% of my use cases, everything is easier and faster in a GUI.
> I don't care who is to blame. It just is.
You already know the answer to this: if you don't like it, you should fix it! It's open source! In other words, the all too familiar blaming the victim.
It's silly, yes. Especially since there are at least 5 ways of making self-contained, one-file or single-directory distributions of software under Linux. Discord comes as a zip file that you need to unpack, then click on the "Discord" executable - and done. Joplin (my note-taking app choice) uses AppImage, where you download a single file and run it, done. It can be done. Yet, it's not done in the vast majority of cases.
You're not interested in reasons why it's not being widely adopted, so let me just talk to myself. Personally, I'd blame package managers. They are too good, too convenient, to the point that not using them is a real hassle. Those of us who remember the dependency hell won't give up package managers until death do us part. Yet, there are too many of them. Having 3 different pkg managers on a single system (deb, snap, flatpak) is sheer madness.
There's also obsession with dynamic linking combined with reluctance to bundle the required libraries with an app (because updates! we would need to actually track development and test new versions of libraries as they appear, who has time for that?!), and a few other problems. As a whole it's a societal problem that won't go away in the foreseeable future. It's also... not a bad problem to have. It guarantees a heavy push-back against app stores, at least.
You already know the answer to this: if you don't like it, you should fix it! It's open source! In other words, the all too familiar blaming the victim.
It's silly, yes. Especially since there are at least 5 ways of making self-contained, one-file or single-directory distributions of software under Linux. Discord comes as a zip file that you need to unpack, then click on the "Discord" executable - and done. Joplin (my note-taking app choice) uses AppImage, where you download a single file and run it, done. It can be done. Yet, it's not done in the vast majority of cases.
You're not interested in reasons why it's not being widely adopted, so let me just talk to myself. Personally, I'd blame package managers. They are too good, too convenient, to the point that not using them is a real hassle. Those of us who remember the dependency hell won't give up package managers until death do us part. Yet, there are too many of them. Having 3 different pkg managers on a single system (deb, snap, flatpak) is sheer madness.
There's also obsession with dynamic linking combined with reluctance to bundle the required libraries with an app (because updates! we would need to actually track development and test new versions of libraries as they appear, who has time for that?!), and a few other problems. As a whole it's a societal problem that won't go away in the foreseeable future. It's also... not a bad problem to have. It guarantees a heavy push-back against app stores, at least.
I have used the Radarr and Sonarr Docker images for around 5 years now. Those were super easy to deploy -- so when I read this comment that the manual was ridiculous I didn't believe it.
Then I read the manual and it's totally true: this is some of the least user-friendly documentation I have ever seen! Terribly tough to follow.
Then I read the manual and it's totally true: this is some of the least user-friendly documentation I have ever seen! Terribly tough to follow.
Yeah, it's a bit like "A windows machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable editing registry entries".
Or "A mac is not for someone who isn't comfortable with hidden system files".
I.e. things the average user doesn't interact with anyway, and if they have to they'll probably do it by following a couple of steps blindly from the internet and that is that.
Or "A mac is not for someone who isn't comfortable with hidden system files".
I.e. things the average user doesn't interact with anyway, and if they have to they'll probably do it by following a couple of steps blindly from the internet and that is that.
Same here. I put mint on my.computer illiterate girlfriend's old computer. She used it as effectively as any other os. The update issue is real though.
I don't know who decided shinny screens are better but they aren't for me. Maybe they slightly reproduce color more accurately but most people are not graphic designers.
Matt screens exist for a reason and can't just dismiss them as being inferior when they specifically solve a problem many have.
Maybe they sell better in a store but so do touch screens in cars. Once you however want to use them you realize the mistake you made.
I hate this world we are turning into where we redesign things for the worse because "look it's shiny". For me a laptop is a utility item and I need it to work. It needs to be able to use the CPU in it and not be throttled down to crap so it can be in a thin case.
Matt screens exist for a reason and can't just dismiss them as being inferior when they specifically solve a problem many have.
Maybe they sell better in a store but so do touch screens in cars. Once you however want to use them you realize the mistake you made.
I hate this world we are turning into where we redesign things for the worse because "look it's shiny". For me a laptop is a utility item and I need it to work. It needs to be able to use the CPU in it and not be throttled down to crap so it can be in a thin case.
I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more high-res/low-res.
It seems to be a point of pride in the Linux community that low-res screens are sufficient. Maybe it's because only Apple has figured out how to do both high-res and long battery life/low weight in a single system. The ultrabooks (air clones) are all struggling to replicate it. My 4k XPS13 has atrocious battery life. The only way that this machine manages to get good battery life is via a 2008-era screen resolution and the world's slowest GPU.
It's a very hard problem to do small+light, with long battery life, and a high-res screen. The whole class of "ultrabooks" was invented by Apple with the MBAir, then retconned into a notebook category, and they're still way out ahead on the screen/gpu/battery life situation, as well as speakers.
Presently all long battery life ultrabooks are low-res and have speakers that remind me of the 90s.
It seems to be a point of pride in the Linux community that low-res screens are sufficient. Maybe it's because only Apple has figured out how to do both high-res and long battery life/low weight in a single system. The ultrabooks (air clones) are all struggling to replicate it. My 4k XPS13 has atrocious battery life. The only way that this machine manages to get good battery life is via a 2008-era screen resolution and the world's slowest GPU.
It's a very hard problem to do small+light, with long battery life, and a high-res screen. The whole class of "ultrabooks" was invented by Apple with the MBAir, then retconned into a notebook category, and they're still way out ahead on the screen/gpu/battery life situation, as well as speakers.
Presently all long battery life ultrabooks are low-res and have speakers that remind me of the 90s.
Agree. It’s a shame the Linux community is so set in its ways. All I really want is decent, grown-up looking Arch Linux laptop with reasonable battery life and performance that boots to CLI and has retina resolution (>200ppi). People imagine retina must be all about graphics, but for me it’s 90% for sharp text. It doubles the amount of time I can use a computer before my brain starts flagging. I use a MacBook Pro because of retina. I wish the rest of the industry would get their shit together, it’s like they have a huge collective blind spot. It’s bizarre to me that PPI is almost never listed on spec sheets and I have to calculate it myself to find out if the screen is going to make my eyes and brain hurt. And they almost all fall short. Outside Apple, high PPI seems to be limited to ‘gamer’ laptops with flashing multicoloured lights for overgrown children. I wish someone would just make a decent plain aluminium laptop with a sharp screen. End rant. Sorry.
100% agreed. My dream machine would be an M2+ Air running a stable release of Debian with full hardware support. (And I mean full hardware support, including the fingerprint scanner, trackpad gestures, properly handling the notch where applicable, etc.)
Apparently Asahi recently published their first alpha release. Does anyone know how close it is to being usable as a daily driver?
Also, has anyone tried the Tuxedo laptop that came up in another recent thread? I'd be surprised if the trackpad entirely held up, and I'm personally against including USB-A or proprietary charging ports in any new hardware, but it is at least the first Linux laptop I've seen with a high-DPI screen. Inclusion of a Dvorak layout option is also a nice touch (Apple still forces me to pop out and rearrange the keys, which feels like a ridiculous kludge for such expensive devices). If Ryzen 7 is halfway competitive with M1's efficiency, I could see this being a very attractive option for a lot of people.
[1]: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Notebooks/...
Apparently Asahi recently published their first alpha release. Does anyone know how close it is to being usable as a daily driver?
Also, has anyone tried the Tuxedo laptop that came up in another recent thread? I'd be surprised if the trackpad entirely held up, and I'm personally against including USB-A or proprietary charging ports in any new hardware, but it is at least the first Linux laptop I've seen with a high-DPI screen. Inclusion of a Dvorak layout option is also a nice touch (Apple still forces me to pop out and rearrange the keys, which feels like a ridiculous kludge for such expensive devices). If Ryzen 7 is halfway competitive with M1's efficiency, I could see this being a very attractive option for a lot of people.
[1]: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Notebooks/...
If all the apple hardware including their gpu (maybe except particularly proprietary things like Touch ID / Secure Enclave) were supported well on Linux and power management we’re sufficiently figured out to not bea total disaster, would that be ok or is it unacceptable that the thing came with nonfree software or to risk apple’s future hardware being unsupportable?
That would be more than OK. I have no hard rules about free vs non-free, I’m pragmatic. But I don’t see that happening. Apple don’t want to put time into helping support other OSes on their hardware, it’s not something they want to do and that’s their call. At least they design good computers. What frustrates me is that no one else in the industry gives the slightest f** about pixel density, even when Apple has demonstrated for years that people really value sharpness. Other manufacturers don’t even mention pixel density, it feels like they’re denying reality. Anyone who looks at an Apple screen can see the difference. My elderly mother said ‘wow’ when she saw her first retina laptop screen. It’s just a different experience. It’s weird how this has been the situation for so many years now.
> What frustrates me is that no one else in the industry gives the slightest fuck about pixel density, even when Apple has demonstrated for years that people really value sharpness.
It's not that they don't, it's that they can't. There's no way to make a high ppi laptop that's small and light and doesn't kill the battery in 3 hours of use.
GPUs that drive that many pixels are power hungry. Apple designs their own integrated GPUs now.
It's not that they don't, it's that they can't. There's no way to make a high ppi laptop that's small and light and doesn't kill the battery in 3 hours of use.
GPUs that drive that many pixels are power hungry. Apple designs their own integrated GPUs now.
There's also this weird meme that Linux HiDPI isn't ready or something. Back in 2001 I had a small 1600x1200 dell desktop monitor at work, and an even higher DPI Sony Trinitron CRT at home.
They were both unusable under Windows, and probably MacOS 9/10.0, but worked fine out of the box in Debian (once you set the DPI correctly in xfree86's config file).
High DPI support for Linux has strictly regressed since then, since, for some reason, people think Apple's scaling hacks are capable of pixel perfect rendering, and ported them to Linux.
They were both unusable under Windows, and probably MacOS 9/10.0, but worked fine out of the box in Debian (once you set the DPI correctly in xfree86's config file).
High DPI support for Linux has strictly regressed since then, since, for some reason, people think Apple's scaling hacks are capable of pixel perfect rendering, and ported them to Linux.
It's not just resolution. Color gamut and accuracy is also derided for no reason. You might get downvoted for suggesting a screen in 2022 should have P3 coverage when 4-year-old mid-range smart phones do. It's really odd to me too because many web developers are working in browser with designers, game devs have graphics, people do graphical hobbies, etc. so it's an important feature to 'doing work' but last I checked zero Linux laptops were shipping with gamuts beyond sRGB.
I don't know if there's data to support this but from what I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average. So it's not like they think low res screens are "sufficient", most of them just don't think it's justified to pay twice as much for a better screen and the market just reflects this. Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.
Doesn't matter though because things are changing, native Linux device makers like S76 and Tuxedo provide have started providing 4k screens on their models.
Doesn't matter though because things are changing, native Linux device makers like S76 and Tuxedo provide have started providing 4k screens on their models.
> I don't know if there's data to support this but from what I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average.
> Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.
> Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.
Bringing a flat nothing to go against an anecdote isn't very helpful at figuring out what's right.
Sometimes it's useful to point out flimsy evidence, but they already did that. You need to bring your own thoughts in this situation.
Sometimes it's useful to point out flimsy evidence, but they already did that. You need to bring your own thoughts in this situation.
I have used 1080p all my life and never thought that I need it to be higher resolution. So for me the risk of Linux high DPI support not working, high cost and higher power usage make no sense to me.
I've had a 2560x1440 27" for a long time and recently switched to 4K scaled to 2560x1440 and the difference is absolutely crazy. Everything is so sharp and crisp, letters look so much better, way easier on the eyes. And that's with plenty of people on here claiming that macOS does a bad job downscaling by non-integer values, not that I'd notice anything wrong. I remember my first retina laptop screen felt just as crazy good.
Don't knock it till you try it. 80% of my usage is text - terminal, code or my notes. Even most of my web usage is text.
I won't go less than a high dpi screen, preferably near 4k.
I won't go less than a high dpi screen, preferably near 4k.
I'm happy with what I have. Why try for more, that just leads to misery when things "have" to be a certain way for you to be happy.
It's the sunset cigar thing. Guy watches the sunset from his porch every evening. One day he smokes a cigar at the same time. Loves it. Now he HAS to smoke a cigar every evening or he can't enjoy it. What has he gained?
It's the sunset cigar thing. Guy watches the sunset from his porch every evening. One day he smokes a cigar at the same time. Loves it. Now he HAS to smoke a cigar every evening or he can't enjoy it. What has he gained?
> I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more high-res/low-res.
I definitely wish it were easier to get a matte+high-res combo.
I definitely wish it were easier to get a matte+high-res combo.
I’m an artist and I am just as annoyed by reflections off the glass hiding what I’m doing as a programmer is. I have heard glossy screens took over largely because they look better in a store.
It has better contrast, deeper blacks. I find reflections just as big an issue on matte screens too.
Glossy screens sometimes have good antireflective coatings which help (new imacs, ipads eg)
Glossy screens sometimes have good antireflective coatings which help (new imacs, ipads eg)
I went from a lemur 14" to a Mac m1 and the following things broke:
- dual monitors were detected only as one monitor, and we're mirrored.
- USB mouse (I disprefer Bluetooth mice) would have to be unplugged and plugged back in if the laptop went to sleep
- no home/end keys
- I had installed all of my corporate 2FA stuff on safari and safari would randomly drop me from Google meets. No other browser had this issue.
The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity while I had the laptop but I figure I would have learned it eventually.
- dual monitors were detected only as one monitor, and we're mirrored.
- USB mouse (I disprefer Bluetooth mice) would have to be unplugged and plugged back in if the laptop went to sleep
- no home/end keys
- I had installed all of my corporate 2FA stuff on safari and safari would randomly drop me from Google meets. No other browser had this issue.
The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity while I had the laptop but I figure I would have learned it eventually.
> - no home/end keys
> The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity
I am forced to work on a Mac at my job. Buying a Mac-layout mechanical keyboard is a must. It has home/end and it has control in the right place (why on earth would apple put fn in the bottom left??).
> The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity
I am forced to work on a Mac at my job. Buying a Mac-layout mechanical keyboard is a must. It has home/end and it has control in the right place (why on earth would apple put fn in the bottom left??).
I wonder the same thing, but opposite. Why in the world would windows/linux put their main modifier key all the way in the bottom left? On every keyboard (I have a Moonlander, a Mode65, and Mode80, I map the keys to match a default Mac. So it is like ctrl -> alt -> super.
> no home/end keys
Command + left or right will do it. Works great on a laptop or small keyboard where you don’t have home/end.
Command + left or right will do it. Works great on a laptop or small keyboard where you don’t have home/end.
The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor (like with every laptop or computer I’ve ever owned, even the Lemur Pro). After you setup your monitors, it remembers the setup every time you connect after.
Yeah agreed with a corded USB mouse, I just have mine plugged into my monitor, one usb c cable to my laptop for video, power, and data. Lemur Pro did this just as good as my Mac, no complaints there.
Home and end I’m pretty sure is just CMD + left arrow, and CMD + right arrow.
Totally agree, safari is a crap shoot. I used Firefox on my Lemur and on my Mac.
I actually ended up remapping my Lemur Pro so that the modifier keys matched the placement of a Mac. I like my main modifier (ctrl on Linux/win, cmd on Mac) to be the key just next to the space bar.
I liked the Lemur Pro a lot. Just trying to give some constructive feedback.
Yeah agreed with a corded USB mouse, I just have mine plugged into my monitor, one usb c cable to my laptop for video, power, and data. Lemur Pro did this just as good as my Mac, no complaints there.
Home and end I’m pretty sure is just CMD + left arrow, and CMD + right arrow.
Totally agree, safari is a crap shoot. I used Firefox on my Lemur and on my Mac.
I actually ended up remapping my Lemur Pro so that the modifier keys matched the placement of a Mac. I like my main modifier (ctrl on Linux/win, cmd on Mac) to be the key just next to the space bar.
I liked the Lemur Pro a lot. Just trying to give some constructive feedback.
> The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor
Incorrect. I had several Mac users look at it and none could figure out what was wrong. I suspect apple drivers don't support usb-c to dual display port.
Lemur has no problem with usb-c to dual displayport. Job eventually replaced Mac with a librem (which I don't love), it also had no problems.
Incorrect. I had several Mac users look at it and none could figure out what was wrong. I suspect apple drivers don't support usb-c to dual display port.
Lemur has no problem with usb-c to dual displayport. Job eventually replaced Mac with a librem (which I don't love), it also had no problems.
>THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with such small touchpads? It is maddening.
Some of these points are subjective. I used to be an Apple touchpad evangelist, but at some point they switched to having enormous touchpads without any buttons. (the touchpad is the button) I had a touchbar Macbook Pro, and I'd get accidental input from the touchpad with good regularity. I wanted the touchpad from a 2007 Macbook Pro.
Some of these points are subjective. I used to be an Apple touchpad evangelist, but at some point they switched to having enormous touchpads without any buttons. (the touchpad is the button) I had a touchbar Macbook Pro, and I'd get accidental input from the touchpad with good regularity. I wanted the touchpad from a 2007 Macbook Pro.
I have the new DELL XPS 15. WOW I Hate the large trackpad. It’s soooo annoying. I can no longer move my thumb down and back again without random screens flying around due to gestures cos my palm touches the corner.
Giant trackpads are terrible.
I miss my Lenovo nipple.
Giant trackpads are terrible.
I miss my Lenovo nipple.
That's because Apple does palm rejection correctly. Probably the best in the industry when it comes to any form of touch input.
Honestly, this is just proving my point when I say that non-mac touchpads are terrible. On my Lemur Pro, it the palm rejection was awful, it was so damn annoying how often the cursor would just fly to a different spot while I was typing. Literally has never happened on any of my Macs.
While the palm rejection has failed with me on a MBP. I'm just saying I agree that Palm rejection sucks on non-mac devices and so I have a preference for smaller track pads.
The one on my Lenovo Legion 7 is large, but smaller than the Dell, and the palm rejection is lightyears ahead of the Dell, but still fails. However it doesn't fail enough for me to care because it's so ever slightly smaller than I dont have the bottom of my hand on the corner of the trackpad while typing like I do on the Dell.
The one on my Lenovo Legion 7 is large, but smaller than the Dell, and the palm rejection is lightyears ahead of the Dell, but still fails. However it doesn't fail enough for me to care because it's so ever slightly smaller than I dont have the bottom of my hand on the corner of the trackpad while typing like I do on the Dell.
Macs detect (99% of the time) when you accidentally brush the pad instead of meaning it.
Can only comment from using someone else’s max because the last one I owned was the MacBook Pro Retina when it first came out and it’s trackpad was smaller than the dell but suffered the same problem. However cos it was smaller it happened far less often. But on the newer larger one it does it too. However palm detection is definitely far better than the dell.
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It is very subjective: For me the smaller the better, if you give a track point instead. I do not understand why people want to move there hand so much while working...
Honestly most of the reason I like a big touchpad is gestures. On mac especially. Switching desktops is 3 fingers to the side. My fingers aren't that small, it's a lot easier to do it on a big trackpad. I never really practiced with a track point when I had one, so I was maddeningly imprecise. Having a big touch pad lets me have more room for error on cursor movement. To do that I have to move my hand slightly more to get to the center of the pad. As you said it's subjective.
> The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures.
My experience is the opposite. My System76 has better gestures than the MacBook it replaced, particularly since the gestures are easily configurable per-app.
My experience is the opposite. My System76 has better gestures than the MacBook it replaced, particularly since the gestures are easily configurable per-app.
A someone that codes and reads code most of the day, matte screen is actually a must for me.
To be fair, I don't even consider apple laptops mainly for this reason.
To be fair, I don't even consider apple laptops mainly for this reason.
As someone who used to be a big proponent of matte screens, matte finish is largely unnecessary when the screen in question has a combination of high brightness and good antiglare coating.
My personal iMac and work MBP for example are glossy but have 600 nits SDR brightness with great coatings, and so have no issues with glare even in a brightly lit room while I’m using dark mode (which shows reflections more).
That said matte screens can also benefit from high brightness. The 500 nit matte panel in my Thinkpad X1 Nano is excellent.
My personal iMac and work MBP for example are glossy but have 600 nits SDR brightness with great coatings, and so have no issues with glare even in a brightly lit room while I’m using dark mode (which shows reflections more).
That said matte screens can also benefit from high brightness. The 500 nit matte panel in my Thinkpad X1 Nano is excellent.
"As someone who codes", as if 80%+ of HN user base wasn't coders. Also you can make a screen matte with a screen filter (they are not just good for privacy).
Could you elaborate or provide a link?
(what makes Apple screens less suitable for text work)
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Once the fanless M1 air came out, I could not use anything else. I pray the rumored 15 inch M2 air is also fanless with huge battery life and more ports.
My S76 laptop just annoyed me. It was fine for a linux machine, but there was just so many little details, build quality, etc I missed from the mac. I also found a few bugs in their custom pop packages and I reported them. The first engineer that responded was honestly pretty rude and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. A second engineer responded and said in fact one of the things I reported was true and hard to fix unfortunately. About a month later I noticed an update went out that fixed the other thing I reported.
My S76 laptop just annoyed me. It was fine for a linux machine, but there was just so many little details, build quality, etc I missed from the mac. I also found a few bugs in their custom pop packages and I reported them. The first engineer that responded was honestly pretty rude and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. A second engineer responded and said in fact one of the things I reported was true and hard to fix unfortunately. About a month later I noticed an update went out that fixed the other thing I reported.
> the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola
It all depends on how you want to use the computer and what are your daily driver apps.
Gnome Shell and KDE are wonderfully polished and work great also with multiple monitors out of the box, XFCE is pretty fast and functional.
About your wife that can't use it? Mine is using Manjaro+KDE since years and never had problems, the switch from then-Windows 7 world was pretty no-brainer. It all burns down on how you approach a new system.
It all depends on how you want to use the computer and what are your daily driver apps.
Gnome Shell and KDE are wonderfully polished and work great also with multiple monitors out of the box, XFCE is pretty fast and functional.
About your wife that can't use it? Mine is using Manjaro+KDE since years and never had problems, the switch from then-Windows 7 world was pretty no-brainer. It all burns down on how you approach a new system.
I have a 17" Oryx Pro that I've been using as my daily driver for work. It's basically a luggable, but I mostly love it.
The thing I really miss from my old Apple laptop though is rock-solid suspend behavior. I feel like I can leave my Macbook closed for a week, and it will barely lose any battery life. When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
The thing I really miss from my old Apple laptop though is rock-solid suspend behavior. I feel like I can leave my Macbook closed for a week, and it will barely lose any battery life. When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
>When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
You may be interested in this systemd script I found on the Debian wiki[0] that enables hibernation and power off after a preset amount of time in suspend. I've been using it with my Thinkpads and it works great. Any time I close the lid it goes into suspend then if I don't use the computer for an hour (this is configurable in the script) it happily goes into hibernate.
[0]https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation
You may be interested in this systemd script I found on the Debian wiki[0] that enables hibernation and power off after a preset amount of time in suspend. I've been using it with my Thinkpads and it works great. Any time I close the lid it goes into suspend then if I don't use the computer for an hour (this is configurable in the script) it happily goes into hibernate.
[0]https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation
Is this due to the weird sleep states in newer Intel CPUs? I read that these are troublesome even on windows.
Aye, I too wish for better suspend. I suspect system76 would also like this. Perhaps when they're big enough they can push the ODMs enough to make it happen.
It should be noted that jmondi review is talking about the previous model. The one the article is talking about hasn't been out long enough for his post to be about lemp11. That doesn't mean it's changed enough that it's not still valid, but it was a different model of the Lemur Pro (likely lemp10)
Yes yes this is definitely the case. Bought my Lemur Pro in late 2019 and used it until I got my M1 MBp
I only now realized that lemp10, with regard to my laptop, refers to LEMur Pro and not Duncan Lemp. I had far too high hopes.
When I used MacOS I had to spend at least as much time at the command line as I do with Linux. If we are going to rate OS's by how much time is needed at the command line I think Windows is likely to win that battle.
I found MacOS not any more usable or stable than Windows had been on my prior laptop. The hardware was less reliable than the Thinkpad my MacBook Pro replaced and repairs were outrageously expensive. I have switched back to a Thinkpad which recently had Windows replaced by Pop!_OS because as of kernel 5.17 the laptop finally gets similar battery life running Linux as it does Windows. I would never consider a MacBook again.
I found MacOS not any more usable or stable than Windows had been on my prior laptop. The hardware was less reliable than the Thinkpad my MacBook Pro replaced and repairs were outrageously expensive. I have switched back to a Thinkpad which recently had Windows replaced by Pop!_OS because as of kernel 5.17 the laptop finally gets similar battery life running Linux as it does Windows. I would never consider a MacBook again.
I honestly cant think of a single thing I've ever needed to drop to the command line to fix on a mac. Maybe changing time machine backup process priority so it would run faster? And that was a want, not a need.
Unless you mean _working from the command line_ rather than fixing issues with the OS from the command line?
Unless you mean _working from the command line_ rather than fixing issues with the OS from the command line?
> PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I’ve used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it’s money… But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I’m sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola.
I believe your understanding of Linux as a desktop is woefully outdated, by perhaps over a decade. As someone who has to use all 3 big desktop operating systems for work (Linux via Pop!_OS, Windows, and macOS) and has used nearly every iteration of each operating system over the past 2 decades, I don't know how you came to this conclusion. The only area I could see macOS beating out Pop is in UX... if I didn't know how to use a computer and wanted the most frustrating experience available but also didn't know better.
This isn't just my take either - older, completely tech-illiterate family members of mine have tried out various laptops over the years that ran all of the operating systems (adding onto those big 3 OSes, they've also tried ChromeOS), and as of right now, every laptop in my family runs Pop!_OS. When it comes time for them to upgrade their laptops, they specifically ask if I'll be able to setup Pop on their new machines. They do not have to muck around in terminals or anything like that - I setup Pop, teach them how to update it and how to perform the basic tasks they need, and the laptop remains operational for years. Compared to when they were on Windows and macOS, I get significantly fewer support calls throughout the year when they're on Pop.
Not only is macOS UX, security, and performance lackluster compared to Linux, but it's also not even close to being as widely adopted as you claim to make it the "Coca Cola of operating systems". Windows holds that title, and that's solely due to how pervasive Windows is throughout schools and businesses, along with the fact that the vast majority of schools (at least in the US) teach students how to use Microsoft-based software like Office.
Even if I had to use a Macbook (which I would never), Pop would be installed onto it from day 1, or else I'd opt to not use the laptop all together. Even if the Macbook has superior hardware to another laptop, if the Macbook has to run macOS and the other laptop runs Pop!_OS, I'd use the other laptop.
This doesn't even touch on the fact that Linux is an open and free operating system (which again, this is a non-negotiable must-have), whereas macOS is heavily locked down and closed source. Nor does it touch on the fact that modern Linux can play nearly every Windows game with little to no issues and it generally just works 'out of the box' or needs a few applications installed, whereas the same cannot be said for macOS - there's much more work required within the terminal to achieve a lesser, often buggier result.
While I agree with you that the overall build quality of the Lemur Pro isn't as polished as a Macbook (which is why I opted for a Framework laptop recently, in fact) and other physical aspects of the machine like its touchpad, I disagree completely with your assessment of the operating systems. Pop!_OS on a M1 Macbook would be a better experience than macOS on a Macbook.
I believe your understanding of Linux as a desktop is woefully outdated, by perhaps over a decade. As someone who has to use all 3 big desktop operating systems for work (Linux via Pop!_OS, Windows, and macOS) and has used nearly every iteration of each operating system over the past 2 decades, I don't know how you came to this conclusion. The only area I could see macOS beating out Pop is in UX... if I didn't know how to use a computer and wanted the most frustrating experience available but also didn't know better.
This isn't just my take either - older, completely tech-illiterate family members of mine have tried out various laptops over the years that ran all of the operating systems (adding onto those big 3 OSes, they've also tried ChromeOS), and as of right now, every laptop in my family runs Pop!_OS. When it comes time for them to upgrade their laptops, they specifically ask if I'll be able to setup Pop on their new machines. They do not have to muck around in terminals or anything like that - I setup Pop, teach them how to update it and how to perform the basic tasks they need, and the laptop remains operational for years. Compared to when they were on Windows and macOS, I get significantly fewer support calls throughout the year when they're on Pop.
Not only is macOS UX, security, and performance lackluster compared to Linux, but it's also not even close to being as widely adopted as you claim to make it the "Coca Cola of operating systems". Windows holds that title, and that's solely due to how pervasive Windows is throughout schools and businesses, along with the fact that the vast majority of schools (at least in the US) teach students how to use Microsoft-based software like Office.
Even if I had to use a Macbook (which I would never), Pop would be installed onto it from day 1, or else I'd opt to not use the laptop all together. Even if the Macbook has superior hardware to another laptop, if the Macbook has to run macOS and the other laptop runs Pop!_OS, I'd use the other laptop.
This doesn't even touch on the fact that Linux is an open and free operating system (which again, this is a non-negotiable must-have), whereas macOS is heavily locked down and closed source. Nor does it touch on the fact that modern Linux can play nearly every Windows game with little to no issues and it generally just works 'out of the box' or needs a few applications installed, whereas the same cannot be said for macOS - there's much more work required within the terminal to achieve a lesser, often buggier result.
While I agree with you that the overall build quality of the Lemur Pro isn't as polished as a Macbook (which is why I opted for a Framework laptop recently, in fact) and other physical aspects of the machine like its touchpad, I disagree completely with your assessment of the operating systems. Pop!_OS on a M1 Macbook would be a better experience than macOS on a Macbook.
I had a Linux desktop running Manjaro circa 2014-2017. From late 2019 - early 2022 I used my Lemur Pro with PopOS full time as my main machine, 8+ hours a day.
I would entirely disagree with the statement that my understanding of linux desktop is out of date. That is, unless you consider using Linux Desktop in early 2022 out of date.
You say that linux is a totally open operating system. Yeah… if you know the command line. That is kinda my point. It isn’t great for people unless they are computer power users. I’ve been a Linux user for almost 2 decades, I’ve tried everything under the sun. I run Linux servers all day every day for work. I know how it is.
Sure… you can get your grandpa to use PopOS by saying “only press this website and email icon and you’ll be fine”, and I agree with that. Give my Lemur Pro to my wife, who can use either Windows or Mac, she would be like “how do I <insert some random thing that she is used to doing on a consumer OS>, and when the answer starts with “open terminal”, she would look at me like I am an insane person.
Mac and Linux are as secure (or not) as you make them. Literally neither one is that much more or less secure than the other one.
If you wanna field calls from your family teaching them how to run a Linux desktop, more power to you. As for me, I’ll be getting my family members a PC or Mac (their choice) and calling it a day.
I would entirely disagree with the statement that my understanding of linux desktop is out of date. That is, unless you consider using Linux Desktop in early 2022 out of date.
You say that linux is a totally open operating system. Yeah… if you know the command line. That is kinda my point. It isn’t great for people unless they are computer power users. I’ve been a Linux user for almost 2 decades, I’ve tried everything under the sun. I run Linux servers all day every day for work. I know how it is.
Sure… you can get your grandpa to use PopOS by saying “only press this website and email icon and you’ll be fine”, and I agree with that. Give my Lemur Pro to my wife, who can use either Windows or Mac, she would be like “how do I <insert some random thing that she is used to doing on a consumer OS>, and when the answer starts with “open terminal”, she would look at me like I am an insane person.
Mac and Linux are as secure (or not) as you make them. Literally neither one is that much more or less secure than the other one.
If you wanna field calls from your family teaching them how to run a Linux desktop, more power to you. As for me, I’ll be getting my family members a PC or Mac (their choice) and calling it a day.
Pretty much agree, was going to make a similar but shorter comment.
To me it feels like the opposite, Windows is the true Coke Cola just because some things work better and the vast majority of people use it like you suggest, Linux is some fresh Pepsi (to say, I know the other is more popular but I don't care and prefer its unique taste) and macOS is some ok discount cola, which is alright but nothing people should go proud of drinking.
To me it feels like the opposite, Windows is the true Coke Cola just because some things work better and the vast majority of people use it like you suggest, Linux is some fresh Pepsi (to say, I know the other is more popular but I don't care and prefer its unique taste) and macOS is some ok discount cola, which is alright but nothing people should go proud of drinking.
There is absolutely no way that MacOS is the bottom. Sure, 100% Windows is Coke Cola. But a Linux desktop vs a Mac… ask 100 people in the world (not Hacker News) to choose between a Mac and a System76 machine, 97 of them are choosing the Mac.
Doesn’t really change anything re: the review though. I had the Lemur Pro for 2 years and used it as my main coding machine. I used it 8+ hours a day for years. It was a solid machine. I bought it because I refused to buy a Touch Bar MacBook. Once the 14” M1 came out… it was over. The M1 is faster, more reliable, has a longer battery life, a higher resolution and brighter screen, and imo has better software. Sure, free software is great, and I contribute to, and use a boatload of OSS, but a lot of times, you get what you pay for, or not.
Ultimately the experience compared to a 14” MBP is, there is no comparison imo, the MacBook hardware blows it out of the water in all aspects.
Doesn’t really change anything re: the review though. I had the Lemur Pro for 2 years and used it as my main coding machine. I used it 8+ hours a day for years. It was a solid machine. I bought it because I refused to buy a Touch Bar MacBook. Once the 14” M1 came out… it was over. The M1 is faster, more reliable, has a longer battery life, a higher resolution and brighter screen, and imo has better software. Sure, free software is great, and I contribute to, and use a boatload of OSS, but a lot of times, you get what you pay for, or not.
Ultimately the experience compared to a 14” MBP is, there is no comparison imo, the MacBook hardware blows it out of the water in all aspects.
I bought my dad a System76 desktop 4 years ago and he’s been plugging away ever since with nary an issue. He’s not tech literate. He uses the browser and runs an update every once in a while when prompted. It’s been great. I’m fairly certain he’s never opened the terminal (on purpose).
>> rc cola .. blah blah
Genuine question. Did rc-cola make claim that it is same/close as real cola ? Seem more like taste issue than durian-2-durian compare.
Itching to buy a system76 64gb laptop and let go of mbp (good), and the idiotic lenevo and thinkpad (32gb duds.)
disclaimer — I work mostly console.
Genuine question. Did rc-cola make claim that it is same/close as real cola ? Seem more like taste issue than durian-2-durian compare.
Itching to buy a system76 64gb laptop and let go of mbp (good), and the idiotic lenevo and thinkpad (32gb duds.)
disclaimer — I work mostly console.
Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another relabelled Tongfang laptop, so people really need to blame not OEM, but people who keep buying from them instead of designing own hardware.
Designing a laptop from scratch may be an adventure with a budget close to $200k-$300k, but there are tons, and tons of US brands who can pull this financially. Yet, even the "innovative" Framework laptop is mostly OEM work. It seems no Western brand took risk designing own hardware since nineties.
I've been a privy to Dell's plans for launching a low-end sub-brand for Asia few years ago, before the COVID.
Every contact manufacturer they been considering was exuberant about an opportunity to launch something original under Dell's brand, but Dell's MBAs were horrified of the prospect giving franchisees permission to run own designs: "what if they will make something too good, and compete with our main brand?", "what if they will screw up the design, and degrade our brand?", "how we will square this off with our part suppliers if we will divert them to another party?"
I myself would've eagerly taken an opportunity to spin up my own laptop brand, with original design. It's far, far easier than most these fellows imagine, and certainly shouldn't cost many millions.
Designing a laptop from scratch may be an adventure with a budget close to $200k-$300k, but there are tons, and tons of US brands who can pull this financially. Yet, even the "innovative" Framework laptop is mostly OEM work. It seems no Western brand took risk designing own hardware since nineties.
I've been a privy to Dell's plans for launching a low-end sub-brand for Asia few years ago, before the COVID.
Every contact manufacturer they been considering was exuberant about an opportunity to launch something original under Dell's brand, but Dell's MBAs were horrified of the prospect giving franchisees permission to run own designs: "what if they will make something too good, and compete with our main brand?", "what if they will screw up the design, and degrade our brand?", "how we will square this off with our part suppliers if we will divert them to another party?"
I myself would've eagerly taken an opportunity to spin up my own laptop brand, with original design. It's far, far easier than most these fellows imagine, and certainly shouldn't cost many millions.
The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts. The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.
I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard, case, etc.
Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc)
I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).
Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc)
I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).
It is built for and comes with Windows or no OS, so I'm dubious about it as a Linux platform. AFAICT, you have to be intentional about Linux support due to the 800 lb gorilla in the market.
Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps after a while it'll work.
Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps after a while it'll work.
Linux compatibility for popular distros: https://frame.work/linux
Nice guide, but I've bitter experience with guides vs support.
Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure commands even with the top-line distro, fedora.
From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...)
> If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1"
> sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub"
Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's checking until its released!
Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure commands even with the top-line distro, fedora.
From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...)
> If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1"
> sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub"
Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's checking until its released!
> entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts
My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody takes on the design themselves today.
> The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.
With most of that being the cost of buying the reference design, and access to the documentation I believe?
I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back then the docs were freely available with enough good Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.
My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody takes on the design themselves today.
> The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.
With most of that being the cost of buying the reference design, and access to the documentation I believe?
I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back then the docs were freely available with enough good Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.
> Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another relabelled Tongfang laptop,
This is not correct. See elsewhere in the thread. However, its not as custom as Apple, but they're also significantly smaller than Apple.
This is not correct. See elsewhere in the thread. However, its not as custom as Apple, but they're also significantly smaller than Apple.
I'm wondering with the (permanent?) switch to work from home if laptop sales will go down.
I've replaced both my personal and work laptops with System76 Meerkat mini PCs both running stock Unbuntu using Regolith for the desktop environment (https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat). They are stacked on top of each other on my desk and take up next to no space.
I work from home (and have since 1999) and don't travel for work (since Covid) so I have no need for laptops now. I have a larger monitor and for now I'm using an old USB switcher to share a wireless connection for my keyboard and mouse and use the input switcher on my monitor to switch between machines. In the future I may get an integrated hdmi/usb switch.
Has anyone else abandoned their laptops in favor of desktop/mini PCs?
I've replaced both my personal and work laptops with System76 Meerkat mini PCs both running stock Unbuntu using Regolith for the desktop environment (https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat). They are stacked on top of each other on my desk and take up next to no space.
I work from home (and have since 1999) and don't travel for work (since Covid) so I have no need for laptops now. I have a larger monitor and for now I'm using an old USB switcher to share a wireless connection for my keyboard and mouse and use the input switcher on my monitor to switch between machines. In the future I may get an integrated hdmi/usb switch.
Has anyone else abandoned their laptops in favor of desktop/mini PCs?
I haven't; i have an office with a screen, physical mouse and keyboard, but it still gets plugged into the laptop.
I can take the laptop to the kitchen, living room or garden if I so please. I can take it out of town or abroad. A desktop... I mean, i could take with me but not so easily.
I can take the laptop to the kitchen, living room or garden if I so please. I can take it out of town or abroad. A desktop... I mean, i could take with me but not so easily.
But a laptop still gives you the option to go work in a park or a café. Anything taxing can be done on a remote server anyway so raw power hardly matters.
Personally I don't think I'll ever get a desktop setup.
Personally I don't think I'll ever get a desktop setup.
I don't see the appeal of working in a café. It's like a noisy office, except you need to keep paying for your coffee. Might as well commute to the office where the coffee is part of the deal in my opinion.
The difference (for me) with a cafe is that it enables body doubling[0] without the threat of interruption.
So, for me, with my ADHD addled brain, I can be quite productive.
[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/06/01/virtual-b...
So, for me, with my ADHD addled brain, I can be quite productive.
[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/06/01/virtual-b...
I do this and could never explain how I was more productive. I’ve always suspected I had ADHD and now I really want to get tested
As someone who also does this, I'm glad that there's a name for this phenomenon. :)
TIL
If you only consider noisy cafés with bad drinks and loud people, sure, better not go there.
Bit some cafés are very quiet, have delicious drinks and food, good music and are (IMO) perfect for some light to mild-focused tasks.
Bit some cafés are very quiet, have delicious drinks and food, good music and are (IMO) perfect for some light to mild-focused tasks.
How the hell are people able to work on a laptop for a long time? Laptops are incredibly non-ergonomic, you are bound to develop neck or back pain.
I learned from experience that spending years at the same chair and desk can do even more damage. As part of my rehab, I switched to a laptop so I could move from couch to chair to table to standing desk easily. I also highly recommend using a motorized adjustable desk, now that goods ones are easily available and affordable. A perfectly customized height for sitting or standing is just a button push away, and I can use multiple monitors again.
There are manual height adjustable desks that can be set for near zero resistance moving up and down. They have a brake and an adjustable tension spring. I think those are the best ones. The only advantage (some) motorized ones have is the ability to remember presets.
For years I only used a laptop and I didn't really experience any of the issues you describe, I was very young though so that may have alleviated some potential issues.
Get up and move around. Don't sit hunched over a laptop for hours.
I don’t know about other people, but the cacophony and background activity actually helps me focus. A lot of that is probably due to my attention deficit of course, but I’ve been this way as long as I can remember. In college I loved going to the floor of the library that had the most chatter and group projects happening (as you went towards the basement the rule was be quiet). It just helps crowd out the noise and distractions in its own way.
Without gaming I don’t think I would ever use a desktop or windows again.
Sorta. I like having flexibility and staying dynamic. I will often jump back and forth between my desk (M1 Mac mini) and my laptop (MacBook pro) to wander around my house on the couch or sometimes outside if the weather is nice.
Having your compute/dev take place on a separate box and using these machines as thin clients helps too. My personal machines are mostly just editors now, not running any hefty code processes.
Having your compute/dev take place on a separate box and using these machines as thin clients helps too. My personal machines are mostly just editors now, not running any hefty code processes.
Do you manage your own remote compute/dev or is it employer-provided?
lol in my country (south africa) we got blessed with 'load shedding'. i.e the state owned power utility Eskom, switch of our electricity for 2.5 hours up to x3 a day. As there is not enough capacity.
So one huge advantage of laptops are a)they run on batteries
b) If you do need to run the laptop of an inverter(i dare not say ups) its much easier to power for longer.
So one huge advantage of laptops are a)they run on batteries
b) If you do need to run the laptop of an inverter(i dare not say ups) its much easier to power for longer.
OOI, why System76 for those? As far as I can tell they're just off-the-shelf NUCs, and System76 are ~$200 more for a sensible spec than buying the NUC, some RAM and a good NVMe drive yourself.
How do you find them for noise? I had an 8th gen NUC that was unbearable under high CPU load - I replaced it with a slightly larger ASRock DeskMini X300 with Ryzen 5750GE and Noctua AM4 cooler that is silent, even under full load.
How do you find them for noise? I had an 8th gen NUC that was unbearable under high CPU load - I replaced it with a slightly larger ASRock DeskMini X300 with Ryzen 5750GE and Noctua AM4 cooler that is silent, even under full load.
> OOI, why System76 for those?
Not the original poster, but +$200 would be reasonable for me.
The last computer I built was twenty years ago so I would have to do at least a couple hours of research to find out what sites and stores are reliable, read component reviews, etc. None of that information is useful or interesting to me beyond getting the computer up and running. And there's a slight chance that despite my best efforts I would make a mistake end up buying a collection of components that are incompatible, don't work optimally together, are back-ordered, or are missing drivers or something. Then I spend another couple hours on forums trying to get everything working.
On the other hand, for an extra $200 I can spend five minutes configuring a tested configuration that comes with tech support if something is wonky, and kicks a few bucks to people trying to support Linux.
Given the value I place on my free time the latter is significantly cheaper. If you already posses the expertise, enjoy that kind of work, or do not place a high monetary value on your time then the former might be cheaper.
Not the original poster, but +$200 would be reasonable for me.
The last computer I built was twenty years ago so I would have to do at least a couple hours of research to find out what sites and stores are reliable, read component reviews, etc. None of that information is useful or interesting to me beyond getting the computer up and running. And there's a slight chance that despite my best efforts I would make a mistake end up buying a collection of components that are incompatible, don't work optimally together, are back-ordered, or are missing drivers or something. Then I spend another couple hours on forums trying to get everything working.
On the other hand, for an extra $200 I can spend five minutes configuring a tested configuration that comes with tech support if something is wonky, and kicks a few bucks to people trying to support Linux.
Given the value I place on my free time the latter is significantly cheaper. If you already posses the expertise, enjoy that kind of work, or do not place a high monetary value on your time then the former might be cheaper.
Hm, that's fair enough for a more complex desktop build in my opinion (except for the unfortunate fact that you often end up with paying a premium for worse hardware that way), but in this case the NUC is an off-the-shelf standard barebone that is widely available - the only thing you are adding is RAM and storage. You can do both of those (for reasonable prices) via Crucial's part picker, for instance - and in fact that's what I based my $200 estimate on.
It feels like an odd target market for me considering I would expect people deliberately opting for Linux to already be more adept with that kind of thing - but maybe I'm wrong!
It feels like an odd target market for me considering I would expect people deliberately opting for Linux to already be more adept with that kind of thing - but maybe I'm wrong!
> I would expect people deliberately opting for Linux to already be more adept with that kind of thing - but maybe I'm wrong!
Yep, I think you’re just wrong. I know plenty of people who use Linux but have never built a PC and have no clue how to do so, and may never have even swapped out ram or disk drives.
I’m sure plenty of people also don’t know what a NUC is or where you would research which one to buy. You’re discounting the fact that you happened to know about the Crucial part picker, but most people don’t!
Some people use Linux because they grew up tinkering with computers, but a lot of people use them for other reasons, like greater familiarity with GNU command-line tools, or just not wanting to need a VM to run Docker.
I think the vast majority of people who build their own computer do so for gaming purposes and use Windows.
Yep, I think you’re just wrong. I know plenty of people who use Linux but have never built a PC and have no clue how to do so, and may never have even swapped out ram or disk drives.
I’m sure plenty of people also don’t know what a NUC is or where you would research which one to buy. You’re discounting the fact that you happened to know about the Crucial part picker, but most people don’t!
Some people use Linux because they grew up tinkering with computers, but a lot of people use them for other reasons, like greater familiarity with GNU command-line tools, or just not wanting to need a VM to run Docker.
I think the vast majority of people who build their own computer do so for gaming purposes and use Windows.
umanwizard already said what I would have said, but I will add a few points:
First, you may be underestimating the value of your expertise and the investment required.
Second, I'm glad we're not gatekeeping Linux as much as we used to.
Third, as I get older I find computer hardware less interesting. Just because someone likes to make music doesn't necessarily mean they like to make instruments.
First, you may be underestimating the value of your expertise and the investment required.
Second, I'm glad we're not gatekeeping Linux as much as we used to.
Third, as I get older I find computer hardware less interesting. Just because someone likes to make music doesn't necessarily mean they like to make instruments.
I'm at an age and point in my career that paying $200 extra to not have to figure out what components to buy and assembling it is worth the money. I did have a Franken-desktop in my 20s that I upgraded a lot (from 386 through Pentium 2) but that was a long time ago.
I don't find the noise bad at all, but again, that may be my hearing going :)
I don't find the noise bad at all, but again, that may be my hearing going :)
I'd get that if it was a full desktop build, however in this case it's an off-the-shelf barebone that you plug two standard things into - but to each their own I guess.
I'd pay the extra $200 if the manufacturer warranted Linux compatibility for 10 years (with a checklist of things like wake from sleep and connect to WiFi/monitor that work > 99.9% of the the time, or some other SLA).
It would also have to be silent.
It would also have to be silent.
Even better there are lots of new unused Lenovo 11th gen Intel mini PCs lurking on eBay for less than half the price. They have two RAM slots, SSD cradle and up to two NVMe slots and have vendor Linux certification out of the box.
I set one up last week for someone and it’ll drive two 4k displays fine. Granted that was under windows.
I set one up last week for someone and it’ll drive two 4k displays fine. Granted that was under windows.
I bought a MacStudio after years of being burned by Apples poor thermals. Turns out there’s basically zero advantage over the current MacBook Pro. Kind of wish I had just gotten the MBP so I could work on the couch or bring it on vacation, although my wife noted she was glad I didn’t have my laptop over the fourth this year.
Yeah, I think the M1 MacStudio was just establishing the form factor in anticipation of M2. Apparently, that requires a better thermal solution as the M2 MacBook Pro throttles much quicker than the previous generation.
I bought an M1 Max Mac Studio, and it ROCKS
I refuse to use laptops. They are not ergonomic, and by not using them I free my mind from work in more circumstances, which I consider to be a good thing.
(Using classic desktop Linux machines at work and at home)
(Using classic desktop Linux machines at work and at home)
>the (permanent?) switch to work from home
Don't know where you live but where I do (Austria) nearly all companies, big or small, have employees back into the office.
Don't know where you live but where I do (Austria) nearly all companies, big or small, have employees back into the office.
I never abandoned desktops for laptops (I use them only for travel), but many people don't have a dedicated office space at home so a laptop is their only real option.
I doubt laptop sales would go down.
It really depends on the use-case, and need for convenience. With a laptop (assuming it's not a desktop-replacement style brick) it's easy to use it in a lounge chair outside, or on a couch in the living room, or to take it over to a friend's house to show something.
Many people don't even use computing-intensive tasks.
So, I don't really see the switch to working at home really changing user preferences. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
It really depends on the use-case, and need for convenience. With a laptop (assuming it's not a desktop-replacement style brick) it's easy to use it in a lounge chair outside, or on a couch in the living room, or to take it over to a friend's house to show something.
Many people don't even use computing-intensive tasks.
So, I don't really see the switch to working at home really changing user preferences. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
It won't. I'm using laptops since early 2000.
Ability to take your computer to couch, bed, terrace, park, etc is irreplaceable.
I do wonder why desktops still exist.
Ability to take your computer to couch, bed, terrace, park, etc is irreplaceable.
I do wonder why desktops still exist.
Laptops suck and always will relative to desktops.
Desktops are more powerful, more upgradeable, and have better display and interface devices.
"Having a computer" is a much higher priority to me than going places. That means "desktop" because it means having all the perks above. The most expensive gaming laptop will suck compared to a mid-tier gaming desktop. You can't squeeze the biggest cards and the best cooling or tons of beefy hard drives in a laptop. Laptops are a fundamental compromise to aforementioned "computerness" for the sake of portability, which to me is a bad deal. Anything that offers more convenience (and marketability) will compromise its core qualities. Phones are the next step down that road from laptops.
It would be nice to magically take my desktop to the couch (I don't own a couch but figuratively), bed, terrace, or park, but not as nice as using a desktop instead of a laptop is in every other way. Wireless headphones help though. :p
Desktops are more powerful, more upgradeable, and have better display and interface devices.
"Having a computer" is a much higher priority to me than going places. That means "desktop" because it means having all the perks above. The most expensive gaming laptop will suck compared to a mid-tier gaming desktop. You can't squeeze the biggest cards and the best cooling or tons of beefy hard drives in a laptop. Laptops are a fundamental compromise to aforementioned "computerness" for the sake of portability, which to me is a bad deal. Anything that offers more convenience (and marketability) will compromise its core qualities. Phones are the next step down that road from laptops.
It would be nice to magically take my desktop to the couch (I don't own a couch but figuratively), bed, terrace, or park, but not as nice as using a desktop instead of a laptop is in every other way. Wireless headphones help though. :p
I use my desktop because I like a 24" screen and full size keyboard, plus I don't have to think about battery levels. My desktop is old enough that even a cheap laptop has similar computing power so that's not personally why I go to my desktop anymore.
I want to thank you for bringing this meerkat mini to my attention..just bought a few! I feel like they are priced quite fantastically
> I'm wondering with the (permanent?) switch to work from home if laptop sales will go down.
They go up
My employer bought me a laptop to work on it during covid.
They go up
My employer bought me a laptop to work on it during covid.
GP probably meant consumer vs business laptops. Personally I let my last laptop die and never bothered replacing it. My Pinephone works much better when I need portable computing and it means I don't have to carry two laptops on a working vacation.
I got an Hp prodesk for a something like 140 bucks (8500t) a couple of years ago from a company that went bankrupt.
My laptop stopped working and I never got a new one.
Now I have a proper monitor (4k, 27 inch), proper keyboard (Matias quiet click), a proper mouse (Logitech trackball), and a proper webcam (some cheap 1080p one I bought from amazon that beats everything in a laptop).
My laptop stopped working and I never got a new one.
Now I have a proper monitor (4k, 27 inch), proper keyboard (Matias quiet click), a proper mouse (Logitech trackball), and a proper webcam (some cheap 1080p one I bought from amazon that beats everything in a laptop).
Sure have. Just set up a Mac mini a few months ago. Been very happy with the decision. My laptop is for where I go to the office - it’s an M1 MBPro they bought me so I flip between machines very easily.
Yes! I bought a used iMac 27 inch. It's beautiful screen but still getting used to the OS. I sold my Dell 9700 which was giant and kept my carbon X1 for loungeroom.
Have you always worked from home at home? Most people I know do work from anywhere for at least a few weeks of the year.
I also work from home. I only use my laptop when I travel once or twice a year. I much prefer my desktop computer.
what do you find appealing about regolith? it seemed kinda heavy to me
The main appeal for me is it just works how I want it to work with little to no tweaking.
I think you'd also like instantwm then
Non-hiDPI display in 2022 is a non-starter. There’s simply not enough pixels to display text correctly with full hd.
I assure you it's enough to display text correctly in 1080p on 15" which is not considered hidpi. You may like hidpi, and that's fine. But let's keep shifting personal standards and what's practically usable straight.
It may be difficult to consider such a laptop after using one with a better screen though. I think that’s his point.
Meh, I switch between a Macbook Air M1 and a Linux desktop with 24" 1920x1200 screens and it's fine after tweaking the font hinting a bit.
FWIW I find low DPI screens uncomfortably blurry
It might be enough to show the text, but there is still no enough space on the screen.
On 1440p disply for example there is so much more to run apps side by side.
How good is your eyesight? 150%? This is a 14" screen.
Ironically my need for glasses due to old age means I get magnification and can read smaller fonts on smaller screens!
I am using 100% on my 1440p 14” without problems. I guess good then.
That’s just simply facts, you can read more here: https://tonsky.me/blog/monitors/
It may not be perfect and if I get my face close enough I can see the pixels, but that doesn't make it not correct. The text is displayed, I can read the letters without issues - that means they're displayed correctly.
I'm using a different hidpi display as well, and don't really care for the difference. The link does discuss real issues, but does not prove anything about "text displayed correctly".
I'm using a different hidpi display as well, and don't really care for the difference. The link does discuss real issues, but does not prove anything about "text displayed correctly".
1080p on a 14 inch laptop is the same density as 4k on my 28 inch screen. I have to try really hard to see any imperfections. Under real-world conditions suboptimal lighting & reflections are a bigger issue on a laptop screen than some sub-pixel features of text.
Lamborghini cars are faster than most jeeps. Facts, does not mean its a overall better driving experience or that jeeps 'simply' are not driveable.
I like your reasoning here but lol at your specific examples. Nobody really considers Lambos or Jeeps as being particularly drivable. Lambos try to kill you and Jeeps rattle your brain.
meh your right ! At least about about Jeeps :p
I have an old 2008 jeep rubicon. Its basically a nice red tractor with aircon and radio.
BUT I feel like OptimusPrime(Transformers) everytime i get into my jeep to go buy groceries !
I have an old 2008 jeep rubicon. Its basically a nice red tractor with aircon and radio.
BUT I feel like OptimusPrime(Transformers) everytime i get into my jeep to go buy groceries !
Lambos are amazingly drivable at speeds over 150mph... Just anything below feels like driving a shaker or rodeo.
The blog post is good in showing that the "non-starter" because cannot "display text correctly" doesn't hold. Specifically it talks about how Macbooks by default utilize fractional scaling that messes up pixel-crisp text. Gonna bet that there's a significant overlap between those that call for ridiculously for their size high res displays yet are fine with those defaults.
I think this is a personal preference rather than a 'it just can not do it' situation.
Been programming for decades on 1080p and before 1080 on 1024. My eyesight is quite bad (-5.85) and i can see perfectly fine on 1080p. Sure 2k or 4k might be better. But thats true for 8k as well.
Been programming for decades on 1080p and before 1080 on 1024. My eyesight is quite bad (-5.85) and i can see perfectly fine on 1080p. Sure 2k or 4k might be better. But thats true for 8k as well.
HDD -> SSD is an enormous difference. SSD -> NVMe, better but not so dramatic.
1080p -> 4K is an enormous difference. 4K -> 8K, better but not so dramatic.
The rate of improvement is not linear.
1080p -> 4K is an enormous difference. 4K -> 8K, better but not so dramatic.
The rate of improvement is not linear.
No one said it was. But for some people for some problems what they have is definitely good enough.
Example: hdd to ssd (huge quantitative improvement if you measure speeds). As you rightly said.
To my eyes(bad eyes) 1080p is enough, 4k might look slightly better but no way near in the same ballpark as hdd to ssd. Maybe its the fonts, workflow or fontsize i use but 4k fonts does not not x5 or x10 better than 1080p fonts. I absolutely sure there are ppl that, that is true for though. YMMV shrug
Example: hdd to ssd (huge quantitative improvement if you measure speeds). As you rightly said.
To my eyes(bad eyes) 1080p is enough, 4k might look slightly better but no way near in the same ballpark as hdd to ssd. Maybe its the fonts, workflow or fontsize i use but 4k fonts does not not x5 or x10 better than 1080p fonts. I absolutely sure there are ppl that, that is true for though. YMMV shrug
For a laptop, I see diminishing returns at 3200x1800. That's as low as I'm go. 4k is preferred and now common. I don't need more.
Ironically, almost all phones I look at have more pixels than I need. Laptops are only recently easily available with reasonable pixel density. For a while, common phones had higher resolution (not just density) than laptops.
Ironically, almost all phones I look at have more pixels than I need. Laptops are only recently easily available with reasonable pixel density. For a while, common phones had higher resolution (not just density) than laptops.
Using 4k at 2x scale, you have exactly the same desktop space as 1080p but with 4x more pixels to render your fonts.
I have bad eyes but apparently not as bad as yours. Let's go ask a blind man if they prefer 1080p or 4K, that'll settle it.
If you don't see the difference, it doesn't mean there's none.
If you don't see the difference, it doesn't mean there's none.
Not OP but if you don‘t see the difference why pay for it? It will also be more taxing for the graphic card or cpu to update 4k, I believe.
Huh !? No one said 'the difference is not there'.
I said the difference is not meaningful enough (for me and many other ppl, if i read the comments) and that stating that 1080p 'is simply a none starter' and it 'cannot' render text 'correctly' it not true. It can render it more correctly yes.
To be really annoying even 8k wont render text 100% correctly since if there is a circle like section example 'p' or 'b' no pixel based device would be able to give a 'true rendition' of the symbol since you need basically infinite precision to correctly display a circle like concept on gridbased scheme(i.e pixel based display)
Sure a 4k or 8k will approximate it better but(and this is really my point
4k or 8k wil be better(yes) but 1080p it sufficient for a good subset of ppl.
Not really sure how the blind man helps either side of this discussion ?
I said the difference is not meaningful enough (for me and many other ppl, if i read the comments) and that stating that 1080p 'is simply a none starter' and it 'cannot' render text 'correctly' it not true. It can render it more correctly yes.
To be really annoying even 8k wont render text 100% correctly since if there is a circle like section example 'p' or 'b' no pixel based device would be able to give a 'true rendition' of the symbol since you need basically infinite precision to correctly display a circle like concept on gridbased scheme(i.e pixel based display)
Sure a 4k or 8k will approximate it better but(and this is really my point
4k or 8k wil be better(yes) but 1080p it sufficient for a good subset of ppl.
Not really sure how the blind man helps either side of this discussion ?
The whole argument is silly. People coded on 21" CRT and LCD monitors at 640×480 even, and yes ... they still live!
While higher resolutions look nicer, they provide no real value for a console. I've had 4x xterms on my desktop for 30+ years.
There is zero "extra space" with higher dpi. None.
One sad downside of things looking nicer, is the battery cost.
UHD vs HD means 4x the pixels, and a GPU rendering all those pixels. If you want a 14hr battery, and light weight, you won't be getting it with a UHD screen in 2022.
While higher resolutions look nicer, they provide no real value for a console. I've had 4x xterms on my desktop for 30+ years.
There is zero "extra space" with higher dpi. None.
One sad downside of things looking nicer, is the battery cost.
UHD vs HD means 4x the pixels, and a GPU rendering all those pixels. If you want a 14hr battery, and light weight, you won't be getting it with a UHD screen in 2022.
Pointing at the GPU is an excuse. That thing doesn't need to go over 1% load to make good text happen.
yup !
I'm explicitly looking for laptops with full HD display resolution, not more. I prefer the crisp pixels of low-resolution bitmap fonts.
This seems to be a tradition in the linux-laptop world. "1080p ought to be enough for anyone!"
Use a 13" 4k for a few weeks and try to go back. Actual high-dpi screens are where it's at.
Use a 13" 4k for a few weeks and try to go back. Actual high-dpi screens are where it's at.
What a tiring trope. I use a high resolution macbook for work and a 1366x768 13 inch laptop for personal use. Like OP, I greatly prefer the font blockiness the latter provides especially in terminals.
And yes, I've tried smooth fonts and FixedSys/Less Perfect DOS-VGA on both and prefer blocky ones every time. High res screens love to use smoothing and subpixel rendering and I very much prefer none of it.
Edit: point being if you switch to high res displays, you won't always like it more
And yes, I've tried smooth fonts and FixedSys/Less Perfect DOS-VGA on both and prefer blocky ones every time. High res screens love to use smoothing and subpixel rendering and I very much prefer none of it.
Edit: point being if you switch to high res displays, you won't always like it more
> High res screens love to use smoothing and subpixel rendering and I very much prefer none of it.
Quite the opposite! These are hacks for low-res displays to make type look better. Sufficiently high resolution displays disable these because they are high resolution enough that your eye perceives a smooth line/edge already without having to resort to hacks to avoid stairsteps.
Quite the opposite! These are hacks for low-res displays to make type look better. Sufficiently high resolution displays disable these because they are high resolution enough that your eye perceives a smooth line/edge already without having to resort to hacks to avoid stairsteps.
If we're talking about actual smoothing, anti-aliasing, then that's not a hack, that's a necessity for non-bitmap fonts until you reach extreme resolutions. If you want your eye to perceive a stairstep as a smooth line you need to start talking about 16K screens.
I'm fine with my 15.6" 1080p screen. The reasons I'm not considering this laptop is the lack of 3 physical buttons on the touchpad. It's Linux after all. Left select text, middle paste, no need of ctrl-c and ctrl-v. It's much faster and I'm using it all the time. Btw, I disable touch to click because it tends to move the pointer and generate misclicks.
I'm with you on the lack of physical buttons. That's a no go.
For me the lack of pointing stick is also a no go. My first laptop over twenty years ago was a Toshiba with a pointing stick, and I've used Thinkpads ever since.
For me the lack of pointing stick is also a no go. My first laptop over twenty years ago was a Toshiba with a pointing stick, and I've used Thinkpads ever since.
Probably 'correctly' is not the right word here.
I often code for 12+ hours straight and the only way to keep up with such a stress on eyes is to use bigger fonts and not focus too much on text (i.e. engage in a slightly defocused vision).
Which means I never use small fonts, though I see a lot of people who code on 13-15 inch screens with super tiny fonts.
Naturally, once you have to use large fonts you end up using large screens (I'm currently on 49 inch ultra-wide Samsung 32:9 screen) and it's the best setup for coding I can imagine.
Still when coding on a laptop, I sacrifice window splits and stuff like that but not the font size. So Macbook Pro resultion is even too high for me, and I'm quite happy with FullHD laptops as well.
I often code for 12+ hours straight and the only way to keep up with such a stress on eyes is to use bigger fonts and not focus too much on text (i.e. engage in a slightly defocused vision).
Which means I never use small fonts, though I see a lot of people who code on 13-15 inch screens with super tiny fonts.
Naturally, once you have to use large fonts you end up using large screens (I'm currently on 49 inch ultra-wide Samsung 32:9 screen) and it's the best setup for coding I can imagine.
Still when coding on a laptop, I sacrifice window splits and stuff like that but not the font size. So Macbook Pro resultion is even too high for me, and I'm quite happy with FullHD laptops as well.
You should take breaks.
Yes but that doesn't change the argument very much. Even if breaks mitigate strain very well, I'd still want to minimize the strain in the first place, in the vast majority of situations.
Only if you are used to hiDPI in the first place.
I have had laptops with hiDPI monitors in the past and currently have a laptop with a FHD screen. After having used both I consider a hiDPI monitor a waste of money and battery life for a 14" laptop.
as someone who regularly uses a 1080p windows laptop and an 1800p MacBook pro, it's certainly not the requirement for me it appears to be for you. It's an improvement, but so is the matte finish on my windows display
I vaguely think my cheap college laptop display around 2006 was 1080 lines tall. How can it possibly be that some manufacturers haven't moved on since then?
Cheap 2006 laptop? Would have been 768p at best, maybe even 600p. Even Apple would happily sell you an 800p macbook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_(2006%E2%80%932012)) until 2012 and laptop GPUs of the era would struggle with a 1080p desktop.
There were a lot of higher res laptops in that time period. They weren't everywhere which is why most people don't know about them.
They weren't "cheap college laptops" though.
Here's a 2006 laptop review roundup: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/best-laptops-of-2006/
There's a 4:3 1680x1050 laptop there (a $2k machine, described as "doesn't come cheap") and the macbook pro (also starting at $2k) was 1440x900.
Here's a 2006 laptop review roundup: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/best-laptops-of-2006/
There's a 4:3 1680x1050 laptop there (a $2k machine, described as "doesn't come cheap") and the macbook pro (also starting at $2k) was 1440x900.
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Some people don't care as much about DPI.
I personally got the third-cheapest 49" ultrawide.
People's eyesights vary. I need big letters anyways.
I personally got the third-cheapest 49" ultrawide.
People's eyesights vary. I need big letters anyways.
The point of HiDPI is not having really small text, is doubling the scaling so text looks smooth instead of a pixelated, blocky mess.
I thought it was a gimmick in 2015 before I got my first MBP, these days I can't go back and have my eyes bleed on 96 dpi. You don't even need full Retina, my 27" 4K screen looks gorgeous at double scaling.
>150 dpi monitors are the second best tech upgrade of this millennium after the SSD. Yet, there's still people these days that will try to convince you their 5400 rpm disk is fast enough, just because they have never experienced modern hardware.
I thought it was a gimmick in 2015 before I got my first MBP, these days I can't go back and have my eyes bleed on 96 dpi. You don't even need full Retina, my 27" 4K screen looks gorgeous at double scaling.
>150 dpi monitors are the second best tech upgrade of this millennium after the SSD. Yet, there's still people these days that will try to convince you their 5400 rpm disk is fast enough, just because they have never experienced modern hardware.
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Resolution doesn’t change physical text size. They’re independent. It makes text at the same physical size more readable. Which sounds like what you want?
> I personally got the third-cheapest 49" ultrawide.
I'm shopping for ultawide right now, care to share the link of the monitor you got?
I'm shopping for ultawide right now, care to share the link of the monitor you got?
It's fine, I'd rather have 16:10 or even better 3:2 than hidpi.
Do Linux distros support hiDPI including mixed DPI (e.g. with a hiDPI laptop screen and a low DPI external one) well ? Under macOS this works really fine, under Windows this is half garbage.
This is solved well in Wayland, with X11 this is not as straight forward. Wayland comes with some other issues though.
Its Saturday and I got some fighting words leftover from the week/s
Using solved and wayland i. the same sentence is just not right !
Source: nvidia+intel laptop owner.
Wayland+Nvidia: Having it work sometimes under some conditions are not the same as solved. X11 is not flawless either but i feel it works more times under more conditions.
Ok rant over, sorry for sounding like a d*k :)
Using solved and wayland i. the same sentence is just not right !
Source: nvidia+intel laptop owner.
Wayland+Nvidia: Having it work sometimes under some conditions are not the same as solved. X11 is not flawless either but i feel it works more times under more conditions.
Ok rant over, sorry for sounding like a d*k :)
Nvidia is the issue. Maybe another year and they'll keep improving their driver.
Open sourcing part of the driver might definitely help other projects support Nvidia's terrible software better, though I haven't seen much about laptop support for those drivers. If the closed source crap is kept in sync, at least the system will be more stable.
True !
> Non-hiDPI display in 2022 is a non-starter. There’s simply not enough pixels to display text correctly with full hd.
1080 on a 14" screen is not, in any way, going to slow your work down compared to hiDPI on a 14".
You're still going to display the same number of visual elements at 14", after all.
1080 on a 14" screen is not, in any way, going to slow your work down compared to hiDPI on a 14".
You're still going to display the same number of visual elements at 14", after all.
I suppose they wouldn't be able to boast 14 hour long life with a better screen.
Definitely agree, though.
Definitely agree, though.
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I have a 24 1080P ultrawide, and its perfectly fine.
So I think 15 with 1080p is going to be pretty good.
Have you tried a 24" screen that's higher res? You won't want to go back to 1080 after.
You are probably correct, My main monitor is a cheap Ultrawide.
However even if I used a 27 4K display, 15" with 1080p is almost the same sharpness as 27 4K.
Its why I don't really see a need for higher than 1080p on mobile phones, can you even see the difference?
Its why I don't really see a need for higher than 1080p on mobile phones, can you even see the difference?
first world problems
One design choice I love here is having the track pad centered on home row, instead of centered on the laptop body. Lenovo has the same orientation. I recently had to switch back to a body centered track pad for work and now I'm aware of the contortions my right hand has to perform in order to type while also resting on the laptop. It slows me down and increases typos. For anyone who types with all 10 fingers, a home row centered track pad is the only serious option.
A well designed trackpad will have virtually flawless palm rejection, which means it shouldn't matter. I'm not sure how that fares outside of Apple machines though.
Apple doesn't have flawless palm rejection, part of the reason why the larger trackpad on new MBP isn't loved by everyone.
I have a System76 (not a Lemur, but surely the touchpad software is the same) and I've never once had a problem with palm rejection. For that matter, I never had a problem with palm rejection on any of the Windows laptops I used to use. Are there any laptops that do have problems with palm rejection? AFAICT it seems like a solved problem (unlike, say "smart sleep", which is an unmitigated nightmare everywhere, including on Macs).
I get enough ghost touches to be annoying on the 2020 Macbook Air and Pro. What device is supposed to be better?
I agree that the track pad should be centered under the home row, but it is just as important to me that the home row be centered under the screen!
If you look at the top down picture of the keyboard above "tech specs", you'll see that this laptop fails on both accounts. :-(
If you look at the top down picture of the keyboard above "tech specs", you'll see that this laptop fails on both accounts. :-(
I'm not a fan of having my laptop maker's logo plastered on the exterior of my laptop but it is unavoidable these days. The System76 logo on this laptop is an especially egregious example of this. It alone would prevent me from considering purchasing one. I'll be looking elsewhere next year when I am due to upgrade which is unfortunate because I am a fan of Pop!_OS and would otherwise have considered System76.
Edit: A comment says the logo on the System76 laptop is an easy to remove sticker so this might be a non-issue.
Edit: A comment says the logo on the System76 laptop is an easy to remove sticker so this might be a non-issue.
That's a fair stance but also worth mentioning that System76's logo on the Lemur laptop is a sticker and very easy to remove. I removed mine the first day I used it.
Put a black sticker over it and call it a day?
I question the judgement of the designers when I see such a large logo. Makes me hesitant about the overall quality. It looks cheap.
I consider it is a matter of taste. The large logo could also be a requirement from the marketing department.
In this view, it should therefore not be a hint about the overall quality.
In this view, it should therefore not be a hint about the overall quality.
There are a bunch of sellers of laptop skins who will solve your problem for about 30 bucks. At least one (skinit) will let you give them an image to put on the back of your laptop.
I don't like skins or stickers on my laptop. Comment below says the logo is an easy to remove sticker in the System76 case so it looks like it maybe a non-issue.
Just had a brain fart... remember in the 90s/2000s. trucks and cars would have stickers that read
"This truck is tracked and protected by satellite" and have their numberplate painted on the roof.
Would be 'somewat funny' if you get stickers like that for laptops
'This laptop is protected by satellite and rdfi' and have some random macaddrrss as part of sticker.
This would be perfect to hide your ugly laptop logo :)
ok who is buying and how many stickers you all want ??
"This truck is tracked and protected by satellite" and have their numberplate painted on the roof.
Would be 'somewat funny' if you get stickers like that for laptops
'This laptop is protected by satellite and rdfi' and have some random macaddrrss as part of sticker.
This would be perfect to hide your ugly laptop logo :)
ok who is buying and how many stickers you all want ??
Xiaomi laptops don't have any logo on the exterior, just clear slate. Looks very slick
The apple for poor ppl ! I love my xiaomi phone and their laptop looks amazing (maybe cause they look like macs)
When the time comes for a new laptop, I would get a System76. The fact they somewhat disable Intel ME is a big plus for me. But I know I would miss the trackpoint.
My only main requirement is the hardware needs to support Slackware and Open/Net BSD.
My only main requirement is the hardware needs to support Slackware and Open/Net BSD.
The "14 hours" is a huge exaggeration, but that's to be expected; every advertised battery life I've ever seen is a huge exaggeration. But I have to strongly vouch for this one; it's the first laptop I've seen that actually can actually last more than seven whole hours with Linux. Every other laptop I've tried lasts under four hours, even if it advertises twenty.
Well usually laptops don’t come from the OEM with Linux, so if you slap Ubuntu on there and the power management stinks, that’s on you.
Laptops with practical 10+ hours battery life usually come with Linux from the factory. Eg the google Pixelbook Go, which gets about 10-12 hours on a battery half as large as the one we are discussing. The System76 has mostly just thrown a gigantic battery at the problem.
Laptops with practical 10+ hours battery life usually come with Linux from the factory. Eg the google Pixelbook Go, which gets about 10-12 hours on a battery half as large as the one we are discussing. The System76 has mostly just thrown a gigantic battery at the problem.
My XPS 15 9570 happily lasts 10+ hours, even though it's already few years old now. Running Arch with nouveau and nvidia card disabled
It says 14 hour battery life but how can anyone tell about future longevity? I usually find any other laptop than a macbook has poor long term life. For example I have my macbook (this isn't a pro Apple post but they have damn good battery life and power efficiency) that lasts 10 or more hours after 3-4 years and then a Dell precision 5540 that lasts 10 minutes after 1 year. These aren't exact figures but you get the picture. Is there somehow to calculate this comparison/benchmark against multiple workbooks with different hardware and claims with all the usage aside. Don't say "well if you use it more and has more apps open..." or "the operating system uses blah blah blah" just hardware specific benchmark agnostic of apps and os, etc.
Dell are horrid, everything about their laptops is disappointing. Everything about the way they refuse to stand behind their appalling quality is culpable. I will never buy a Dell laptop again.
Replaced my precision with a second-hand thinkpad t480s. 3 years old. Haven't replaced the battery it arrived with. Recent popular distro. I get 10 hours of battery life doing programming. Webbrowser open with 20+ tabs, multiple terminals, signal, rhythmbox.
Cost USD$410. Tough to beat that at any price. Maybe a new one with an AMD under the hood? I can get 3+ of these for the same money and is it really actually better? Dell was more money and a lot worse, you see a lot of people with that experience around here.
Replaced my precision with a second-hand thinkpad t480s. 3 years old. Haven't replaced the battery it arrived with. Recent popular distro. I get 10 hours of battery life doing programming. Webbrowser open with 20+ tabs, multiple terminals, signal, rhythmbox.
Cost USD$410. Tough to beat that at any price. Maybe a new one with an AMD under the hood? I can get 3+ of these for the same money and is it really actually better? Dell was more money and a lot worse, you see a lot of people with that experience around here.
My 3-4 year old Macbooks definitely don't last anywhere near their original battery life, and I've had plenty of MacBook batteries fail in the way of turning off under 50% battery when under heavy load. Not to mention swelling up.
actually speaking of apple... bc I didn't really want to get into this whole debate.. but at this price point why wouldn't you just buy a macbook air m2.
Macs are not comparable to a full Linux system.
Also, when the battery dies, you can replace it easily. Any modern laptop is still going to have battery degradation. This is a much better investment for those that can't afford to replace laptops every 3-4 years.
Also, when the battery dies, you can replace it easily. Any modern laptop is still going to have battery degradation. This is a much better investment for those that can't afford to replace laptops every 3-4 years.
> you can replace it easily.
Especially with System76. They all have instruction manuals available: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/lemp11/repairs.html
Especially with System76. They all have instruction manuals available: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/lemp11/repairs.html
> you can replace it easily
I actually followed the link and went to the battery section..
"Tools required: Cross-head (Phillips) screwdriver"
"Time estimate: 30 minutes"
"Difficulty: High (red)"
High/Hard == easy
I actually followed the link and went to the battery section..
"Tools required: Cross-head (Phillips) screwdriver"
"Time estimate: 30 minutes"
"Difficulty: High (red)"
High/Hard == easy
If you read it, it sounds easy. The "easy" things in their categorization are things like removing the bottom cover. If you're not comfortable doing it, I believe you can ship it to them and have them do it. (If you have questions about these things, I highly recommend asking them.)
Sure, it's not as easy as an external battery, but I've not seen those in a long, long time. But you also don't need specialist tools nor a 35kg custom kit to replace it (https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi...). And you definitely don't _have_ to send it to them to get it changed.
Sure, it's not as easy as an external battery, but I've not seen those in a long, long time. But you also don't need specialist tools nor a 35kg custom kit to replace it (https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi...). And you definitely don't _have_ to send it to them to get it changed.
For contrast, here's Apple's page on how to replace their batteries: https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/
As someone (myself) that uses linux almost exclusively, what is that supposed to mean "that it's not comparable?" It's 100% comparable. And if you ask me ubuntu gnome desktop is starting to look exactly like a mac ui. Another comparison is that there's no support for my "full Linux system" when shit hits the fan and the OS deadlocks except for myself. Linux has 100% bricked on me after upgrades/updates. Anyway overall I 100% love my ubuntu and centos systems. 5/5 would recommend.
Just because both Mac and Linux are "unix based" with terminals doesn't mean that they allow for the same use cases. The OS are structured very differently.
Linux is core os on top of which you can use a UI of your choosing. If you have something like Ubuntu server installed with just a terminal interface, that system will most likely never lock up from user input unless all the stuff in the background becomes resource constrained.
MacOS has the UI, the kernel, and the programs all tightly coupled together to where you have zero choice on a lot of things in the OS.
Linux is core os on top of which you can use a UI of your choosing. If you have something like Ubuntu server installed with just a terminal interface, that system will most likely never lock up from user input unless all the stuff in the background becomes resource constrained.
MacOS has the UI, the kernel, and the programs all tightly coupled together to where you have zero choice on a lot of things in the OS.
> Macs are not comparable to a full Linux system.
What does that mean? I've run Linux on all the MacBooks I've owned. I just ordered an M2 Air with the intention of using it primarily as a Linux laptop.
What does that mean? I've run Linux on all the MacBooks I've owned. I just ordered an M2 Air with the intention of using it primarily as a Linux laptop.
To be fair, it'll probably be a lot easier to replace the battery on that dell (and the system76, I imagine?) than on the Macbook. That evens things out even if the battery doesn't last.
Yeah sure that's a good point for someone who wants to keep doing IT support on their laptop and replacing batteries and other failing parts
I own a System 76 laptop (the Oryx) and ultimately bought a MacBook Air m1 to replace it. I'm not sure how many people know this, but S76 doesn't make their own hardware and instead uses repackaged Clevo laptops. These machines are cheap, ugly, and heavy. Nothing about them feels particularly high quality. They charge a premium price so I'd expected more and was disappointed. Knowing what I know now, I would have gotten a Framework laptop for a first class linux experience.
All that said, PopOS is my distro of choice. They really got a lot right there IMO. If they can get it together on the hardware front, might be worth another look in the future.
All that said, PopOS is my distro of choice. They really got a lot right there IMO. If they can get it together on the hardware front, might be worth another look in the future.
Man I wish System76 or Framework or someone else could make hardware as nice as Apple. I just ordered an M2 Air which I will be primarily running Linux on. I'm replacing my Lenovo T480s (which was a great laptop) because I want _nice_ hardware. There are just so few options that even come close to competing with Apple.
I have a 2019 Macbook Pro, and the only 'nice' part about the hardware are the speakers. Everything else is either meh or absolutely terrible (okay, the screen is okay too).
Compared to a cheap HP I have, the touchpad is slightly better, but since the touchpad is huge I trigger it more on the Mac, the keyboard is annoying because it has a fn key on the bottom row on the left, rather than ctrl and don't get me started on the touchbar. The fingerprint scanner... mostly works. The SSD is fucking slow, 10k IOPS. The laptop gets unberably hot when connected to an external display, since it cannot use the builtin video card. Fans can be adjusted to be at full speed... until you go into sleep, at which point they reset, so it gets hot again. I'm also not impressed by the battery life, it's probably the same as said 500EUR HP, sometimes even less (yes, fuck zoom, and the 1h battery life it gives me)
Compared to a cheap HP I have, the touchpad is slightly better, but since the touchpad is huge I trigger it more on the Mac, the keyboard is annoying because it has a fn key on the bottom row on the left, rather than ctrl and don't get me started on the touchbar. The fingerprint scanner... mostly works. The SSD is fucking slow, 10k IOPS. The laptop gets unberably hot when connected to an external display, since it cannot use the builtin video card. Fans can be adjusted to be at full speed... until you go into sleep, at which point they reset, so it gets hot again. I'm also not impressed by the battery life, it's probably the same as said 500EUR HP, sometimes even less (yes, fuck zoom, and the 1h battery life it gives me)
Do you know anything about the 2022 HP Elitebooks? The 800 and 1040 series look really good. 16:10 screens.
https://www.hp.com/us-en/laptops/business/elitebooks.html
https://www.hp.com/us-en/laptops/business/elitebooks.html
There's plenty of good competition, just none of those options come with Linux—and as we saw with the Lenovo news yesterday, it's getting less friendly to install a FOSS OS.
Lenovo news was just a click bait which meant nothing. You can install FOSS OS as well as 5 years ago.
Yes and no. A lot of folks would be afraid to fiddle with their BIOS settings. Reading that step could scare some users off from trying—especially the sound of “disable ‘secure boot’”—but it's nothing a future Linux user should be scared of.
If you are afraid to fiddle with your BIOS, should you even be using Linux?
People shouldn't be afraid of technology, but we gotta come from a place of empathy—especially with people that are too old to have never gotten into PCs or now the younger generation who was raised on apps and mobile OS where even the file system is hidden, but really anyone can apply here. Linux, BSDs, et. al. should be for everyone. This includes easy-to-use interface for users with little current technical knowledge but also which means keeping some distros and DEs that don't belittle the experience power user.
Not belittling anybody.
But any grandpa or granny who can use YouTube, can do it simply by following instructions shown there.
People should at least be willing to do that.
But any grandpa or granny who can use YouTube, can do it simply by following instructions shown there.
People should at least be willing to do that.
I don't believe that there is any comparable hardware to the M* macbooks right now, linux or not.
Does Linux work well on those M chip Apple laptops?
https://asahilinux.org/2022/03/asahi-linux-alpha-release/
And ”What works” section.
And ”What works” section.
Based on the progress Asahi Linux has made in the last year, I expect linux to be a reasonable option (for folks who are comfortable with a Linux installer) within the next 12 months.
It “works”, but not really well enough for general use. There’s a project called Asahi Linux dedicated to getting it to work, and it does run, but a lot of peripheral hardware (Bluetooth, accelerated graphics) is still not supported.
I’m not aware of any distribution other than Asahi (which is based on Arch) that can boot at all.
I’m not aware of any distribution other than Asahi (which is based on Arch) that can boot at all.
good to see linux being sold in laptop out of the box. this means, hopefully that bugs that the linux community was used to, because everyone knew it and didn't bother fixing are getting fixed because linus managed to break Pop os in the first command.
stuff like what kde is doing with their "15-Minute Bugs" are great initiatives. this will definitely help the overall linux software become more rugged and idiot friendly
stuff like what kde is doing with their "15-Minute Bugs" are great initiatives. this will definitely help the overall linux software become more rugged and idiot friendly
> good to see linux being sold in laptop out of the box.
I remember knowing that if I got an IBM ThinkPad, it probably had good Linux driver support.
I still make the assumption that Lenovo ThinkPads have better Linux driver support because hackers prefer them. But I honestly have no idea if that's true any more.
I remember knowing that if I got an IBM ThinkPad, it probably had good Linux driver support.
I still make the assumption that Lenovo ThinkPads have better Linux driver support because hackers prefer them. But I honestly have no idea if that's true any more.
Mine needs an unofficial wifi driver or the connection will just die every 20 minutes, and the NVidia Optimus hardware is a nightmare.
I like the laptop overall but I'll never touch NVidia stuff again. Drivers are among the things I just don't want to deal with.
I like the laptop overall but I'll never touch NVidia stuff again. Drivers are among the things I just don't want to deal with.
Better than average but the majority of laptops use the same hardware and drivers. A bad wifi chip here or an odd fingerprint reader there are the majority of issues.
Various, generally older, ThinkPads are popular in the *BSD communities too.
It is good to see it but a bit ridiculous to see companies marking up the pricing just to install an OS which is pretty simple to do with almost any hardware.
That’s the whole point of it. You get excellent tested comparability and support. For Linux users like me it’s worth the money. I can have Linux and not worry about if my hardware is compatible with the default install.
You are paying for support and to make it easy.
But scale, as they sell more one assumes the markup will decrease.
You are paying for support and to make it easy.
But scale, as they sell more one assumes the markup will decrease.
System76 also adds custom, open source firmware (https://support.system76.com/articles/open-firmware-systems/) and ensures the hardware works by coordinating with the ODM and writing custom drivers if necessary (https://support.system76.com/articles/system76-driver/)
Pretending to be a system integrator by buying proprietary Windows hardware and slapping Linux on it is a mug's game.
They were going to start building their own laptops at one point. I'm not sure what happened with that. Of course, nobody except Apple really builds their own hardware these days either (hence the term ODM).
Pretending to be a system integrator by buying proprietary Windows hardware and slapping Linux on it is a mug's game.
They were going to start building their own laptops at one point. I'm not sure what happened with that. Of course, nobody except Apple really builds their own hardware these days either (hence the term ODM).
It's an added context switch. It takes a small amount of time and the end user has the convenience of not needing to do it, the end user chooses to pay for that.
disclaimer: I've never touched a s76 machine.
I would never run an OS that was pre-installed as the install image can't be verified.
disclaimer: I've never touched a s76 machine.
I would never run an OS that was pre-installed as the install image can't be verified.
Honestly, I've only ever run the pre-installed OS on one machine from them (my gaming Thelio). I buy them for the support both after- and before-purchase. I.e. because they do great support and provide machines that actually support Linux.
I used to not have the option of buying Linux hardware, and it was terrible. I don't understand why anybody does that to themselves these days, and I sincerely hope we never go back to having to buy Windows hardware, slapping Linux on top of it, and hoping that enough devs had the _exact_ same hardware to minimize the glitches.
I used to not have the option of buying Linux hardware, and it was terrible. I don't understand why anybody does that to themselves these days, and I sincerely hope we never go back to having to buy Windows hardware, slapping Linux on top of it, and hoping that enough devs had the _exact_ same hardware to minimize the glitches.
Windows hardware like the Surface?
What is it with the weird RAM configurations? It looks like they have 8GB embedded (soldered) to the motherboard.
The choices for RAM configuration come down to 8GB, 2x8GB, 8GB + 16GB and 8GB + 32GB.
That makes the second option the only dual channel configuration. Going past 2x8GB is not a real upgrade but more like a side-grade.
The choices for RAM configuration come down to 8GB, 2x8GB, 8GB + 16GB and 8GB + 32GB.
That makes the second option the only dual channel configuration. Going past 2x8GB is not a real upgrade but more like a side-grade.
Surprised by this. I’m deciding between System76 and Framework, and Framework is fully upgradable.
Soldered, non-upgradable hardware is the bane of my existence.
Yeah, I hate this too. Either solder both in a sane dial channel configuration or have both socketed.
What is it with this 8GB soldered, one socket free thing?
What is it with this 8GB soldered, one socket free thing?
Manufacturing cost reduction.
It's a weird trade off to make on a business laptop, but everyone does it now, including Lenovo with ThinkPads.
If you want the upgradability and ports of a 2011 Thinkpad you need to buy a budget gaming laptop now.
If you want the upgradability and ports of a 2011 Thinkpad you need to buy a budget gaming laptop now.
Apple's 20-hours claims are actually real. I wonder how real these are. My experience with Linux has seen claims like this melt down to 2-3 hours in normal use.
I use a lemp10, the previous model with 11th gen i7. 15 hours of use are definitely possible in light use (low but sufficient screen brightness, disabling turbo boost), i.e. browsing, some video watching, text editing. Even running docker and compiling doesn’t hurt much. The battery life is so good that I maxed the charging level at 85% to increase the longevity of the battery. I can still work a full day off a single charge.
With modern laptops you can definitely get at least 10+ hours of work out of them but that wildly depends on how well the power curves are configured. If you're in luck the ones that Linux uses are good for your use case and you'll get great performance out of your laptop out of the box, if you're out of luck you'll have the tweak all kinds of settings to get more than five hours of battery life out of a laptop. The same is true for Windows, though manufacturers often provide better presets to Microsoft.
The biggest killer of my laptop's battery life is the dedicated GPU. The second that thing turns on (for example, when I attach an HDMI cable) I can feel the entire laptop heating up. Granted, this laptop is sold as a mobile workstation for about half the price of a Macbook Pro, so it's not really designed for battery life, but it's still quite annoying sometimes.
My previous laptop couldn't get more than two hours out of a charge, it's crazy how much more you can get even out of cheap laptops these days.
The biggest killer of my laptop's battery life is the dedicated GPU. The second that thing turns on (for example, when I attach an HDMI cable) I can feel the entire laptop heating up. Granted, this laptop is sold as a mobile workstation for about half the price of a Macbook Pro, so it's not really designed for battery life, but it's still quite annoying sometimes.
My previous laptop couldn't get more than two hours out of a charge, it's crazy how much more you can get even out of cheap laptops these days.
Where are the power curves stored?
The OS can regulate large parts of the performance curves but some of the configuration is in the microcode/firmware AFAIK to allow laptops designed for a certain thermal load to not exceed that load for too long rather than let the CPU fall back on thermal throttling at a less opportune time. I know Lenovo has a Windows driver that will boost performance of the CPU and GPU if you enable performance mode, even going so far as pre-spinning the fans in anticipation of what you're doing.
I'm not sure how the modern system works because CPU performance characteristics have changed quite significantly over the past few years.
Most desktop chips seem to follow very similar Intel/AMD curves anyway, but I know Apple used to aggressively tweak Intel CPUs to boost high very quickly whenever there was an interactive load (opening a program, clicking a link etc.) to help make the system feel responsive despite their terrible cooling solutions. A lot of their chips really couldn't take a load for too long before slowing down drastically, but most work by most people is in bursts so outside of areas like gaming and simulation you probably can't even notice.
I'm not sure how the modern system works because CPU performance characteristics have changed quite significantly over the past few years.
Most desktop chips seem to follow very similar Intel/AMD curves anyway, but I know Apple used to aggressively tweak Intel CPUs to boost high very quickly whenever there was an interactive load (opening a program, clicking a link etc.) to help make the system feel responsive despite their terrible cooling solutions. A lot of their chips really couldn't take a load for too long before slowing down drastically, but most work by most people is in bursts so outside of areas like gaming and simulation you probably can't even notice.
That is not my experience at all. Running Debian, my 7 years old cheapo 4th gen Intel laptop on its original battery still gets a good 6 hours of battery life.
If a laptop gets much worse battery life on Linux that's a good indication that its hardware is not supported. It may be for example a dGPU that is not initialized properly and sips power as a result.
If a laptop gets much worse battery life on Linux that's a good indication that its hardware is not supported. It may be for example a dGPU that is not initialized properly and sips power as a result.
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Why a shame it only has a 1080p screen, there's no way I could go back to low resolution.
Nice form factor but it's hard to consider a notebook that's not Ryzen-based these days.
why?
Ryzen is beating intel quite hard for performance/watt (with the associated heat trade-off too).
These are very core to the value proposition of laptops, so it makes sense and directly translates to longer battery and reduced fan noise.
These are very core to the value proposition of laptops, so it makes sense and directly translates to longer battery and reduced fan noise.
I was wondering how that got that battery life. I have an old system 76 (8th gen intel and nvidia) and while it’s quite speedy and can game, battery life isn’t great.
The article hints at Linux now using intels new low power cores. Though I’m not sure exactly how.
“Like Windows, Linux had to have some serious tinkering under the hood to prepare for the mix of Performance and Efficiency cores in Alder Lake chips. However, rest assured, efficient hybrid scheduling is taken care of with the two OS options that can be pre-installed on the Lemur Pro.”
The article hints at Linux now using intels new low power cores. Though I’m not sure exactly how.
“Like Windows, Linux had to have some serious tinkering under the hood to prepare for the mix of Performance and Efficiency cores in Alder Lake chips. However, rest assured, efficient hybrid scheduling is taken care of with the two OS options that can be pre-installed on the Lemur Pro.”
There are lots of little tweaks that can make a huge difference in battery life. Since there's a lot more that was posted on the Framework community I use that as an example (but it can apply to any laptop model). OOTB, reports for idling was anywhere from 7-11W. With the Framework's 55Wh battery, that would mean that it would run down in 5-8h at complete idle (oof):
https://community.frame.work/t/issues-with-power-usage/12261
https://community.frame.work/t/nixos-power-consumption/6339
However, with some tuning, that can get down to as low as 2.5-3W:
https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life-impact-of-ram-me...
To summarize on the configuration options, the biggest gains are probably from powertop/tlp tunings, PSR, settings to get to C9/C10 on idle (PSR is a prereq for this), replacing PulseAudio w/ Pipewire, modifying the EPP values, and fstab options (noatime, relatime).
Of course, some of System76's gains could be spending some extra effort on their EC/BIOS tunings, or on the hardware itself (lots of ways to mess up or to get gains from the motherboard layout/components).
It's also worth noting that some SSDs like the Hynix P31 consume much less power than others, so hardware selection can play a part as well.
https://community.frame.work/t/issues-with-power-usage/12261
https://community.frame.work/t/nixos-power-consumption/6339
However, with some tuning, that can get down to as low as 2.5-3W:
https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life-impact-of-ram-me...
To summarize on the configuration options, the biggest gains are probably from powertop/tlp tunings, PSR, settings to get to C9/C10 on idle (PSR is a prereq for this), replacing PulseAudio w/ Pipewire, modifying the EPP values, and fstab options (noatime, relatime).
Of course, some of System76's gains could be spending some extra effort on their EC/BIOS tunings, or on the hardware itself (lots of ways to mess up or to get gains from the motherboard layout/components).
It's also worth noting that some SSDs like the Hynix P31 consume much less power than others, so hardware selection can play a part as well.
I recently discovered powertop. It makes a huge difference for my Lenovo Legion.
You'd hope so because these U-series processors only have 2 real cores and 8 efficiency cores. If Linux were unable to sensibly exploit that setup, it would not be fun to use. Note that you need the very latest Linux kernel and depending on your distro some manual configs to make it work right.
Give me proper (bigger) arrow keys (see Thinkpad) and 16:10 screen and I'd buy it.
Ryzen would be better, too.
A reasonably priced upscale Linux laptop with open firmware, named after my favorite animal, and a mechanical keyboard. Wow I can't remember the last time some product came along that sounds so perfect for me. I really want to try this because there's no way this can't be awesome. It's like they read our minds and put everything we wanted but never imagined we'd get in one product.
I believe the mechanical keyboard you speak of is an external device (and not part of the laptop frame).
Isn't that laptop produced by another company and just rebranded by system76?
The chassis is I believe a L140PU: https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1599&lang=en
If I were buying this model I wouldn't mind buying it from System76 if you're not ultra-price sensitive to show support for their coreboot and open-source EC development.
The Intel i7-1255U is about 20% slower than an Intel i7-1260P or an AMD 5800U, so it's performance isn't bad, but personally I'd rather have a >16:9 >1080p >300 nit display (similar alternatives with better displays: Tuxedo Pulse 15 Gen2, Slimbook Executive 14, Framework 12th Gen)
If I were buying this model I wouldn't mind buying it from System76 if you're not ultra-price sensitive to show support for their coreboot and open-source EC development.
The Intel i7-1255U is about 20% slower than an Intel i7-1260P or an AMD 5800U, so it's performance isn't bad, but personally I'd rather have a >16:9 >1080p >300 nit display (similar alternatives with better displays: Tuxedo Pulse 15 Gen2, Slimbook Executive 14, Framework 12th Gen)
Clevo: though they work closely with them to ensure all the hardware is Linux-supported. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414
Also, the firmware is totally different, and open source. https://support.system76.com/articles/open-firmware-systems/
So, Clevo is the ODM, just like Compal and some others are for Dell: https://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/vn/corporate~corp-comm~en/d...
So, Clevo is the ODM, just like Compal and some others are for Dell: https://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/vn/corporate~corp-comm~en/d...
Looks interesting. Here is what I would change:
- increase screen size to at least 15.5" because small screen is unusable for programming and for browsing modern websites with large font size and large pictures
- use IPS panel (can increase cost)
- make arrow keys full size (doesn't cost anything)
- add 7 keys for additional Cyrillic letters and 2 keys to switch between layouts (doesn't cost anything)
- add 3 USB ports and Ethernet (doesn't noticeably increase cost)
- increase RAM limit to 128 Gb (shouldn't cost anything, it is probably just a software limitation)
- use standard 3.5mm audio jacks
Using a better LCD panel can increase cost, so here is how this can be conpensated:
- use an older cheaper CPU. Newest CPUs usually have lower performance to cost ratio and therefore it doesn't make sense to buy them. Also why pay for 10 cores when most of the time you will be using 1 or 2?
- support cheaper HDD instead of SSD
- remove unnecessary speakers
- remove unnecessary keyboard backlight. Using laptop in darkness is bad for eyes anyway.
Also I am surprised that a modern i7 CPU that costs over $470 has just 12Mb cache. You can (probably) buy an old CPU with more cache for smaller price.
- increase screen size to at least 15.5" because small screen is unusable for programming and for browsing modern websites with large font size and large pictures
- use IPS panel (can increase cost)
- make arrow keys full size (doesn't cost anything)
- add 7 keys for additional Cyrillic letters and 2 keys to switch between layouts (doesn't cost anything)
- add 3 USB ports and Ethernet (doesn't noticeably increase cost)
- increase RAM limit to 128 Gb (shouldn't cost anything, it is probably just a software limitation)
- use standard 3.5mm audio jacks
Using a better LCD panel can increase cost, so here is how this can be conpensated:
- use an older cheaper CPU. Newest CPUs usually have lower performance to cost ratio and therefore it doesn't make sense to buy them. Also why pay for 10 cores when most of the time you will be using 1 or 2?
- support cheaper HDD instead of SSD
- remove unnecessary speakers
- remove unnecessary keyboard backlight. Using laptop in darkness is bad for eyes anyway.
Also I am surprised that a modern i7 CPU that costs over $470 has just 12Mb cache. You can (probably) buy an old CPU with more cache for smaller price.
Everyone's talking about the laptop, but are you all not impressed that System76 is doing so well? I didn't think they'd be around this long, but I am pleasantly surprised and quite impressed they keep pumping out good stuff. I don't need a new computer yet but with Lenovo gradually decaying, I'm glad there's a fresh face on the block.
I bought an Oryx Pro last year and the screen fell off after one day of use. Got a free replacement and the exact same thing happened. The next time I contacted customer support, they sent me some adhesive strips and told me that if I applied them to the back of the screen and pressed it back into place it shouldn't happen again. I asked them why they hadn't done this properly in the first place and they had no answer for me.
I want to love System76. I really do. But the truth is that I don't think I will ever trust them again.
I want to love System76. I really do. But the truth is that I don't think I will ever trust them again.
I have had this specific system for about a year, and I get about 4-5 hours battery life for my main use case, which is web development, zoom calls and remote computing with Remmina (RDP). One of the best things about it is the native support for Docker. Overall, I have been pretty happy with it, and will probably purchase from System76 again when it's time to upgrade.
Happy to answer any questions anyone has about it.
Happy to answer any questions anyone has about it.
The one thing I did not like about the Lemur Pro is its odd and extremely tiny arrow keys. That made it impossible to use, given that I touch type and rely on motor memory for typing.
Most of the time this is quite neglible because the Lemur machine I have is tied to a mechanical keyboard and a desktop. But when I have to lug it around it can be quite annoying for serious, long-form work.
Most of the time this is quite neglible because the Lemur machine I have is tied to a mechanical keyboard and a desktop. But when I have to lug it around it can be quite annoying for serious, long-form work.
I's that just another rebrand from clevo or something like that or they actually did something on their own?
I admit one of the big draws of the MacBookPro is the screen. Well that and the trackpad.
You forgot the CPU and the speakers, too. :)
Well, the M1 is great (I like mine, even if it took 6 months to arrive...), but my comment stands for older versions of the MBP with Intel inside.
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Oh funny I was looking at this the other day, didn’t realize it was a new thing. Their laptops smare tempting. I assume they are better built than the mass produced stuff.
> I assume they are better built than the mass produced stuff.
I wouldn't assume that. I'd assume this is a mass produced stuff going through an ODM like Clevo.
If it isn't, there certainly isn't any reason to expect system76 to be capable of better production than the "mass produced stuff" coming out of eg Dell's XPS line or Lenovo's Carbon line. Especially when those companies have decades of experience and tooling investments here.
But I also don't think the dismissal of "mass produced stuff" is really even fair here. The Clevo and other ODM designs have been quite good for a long time now.
I wouldn't assume that. I'd assume this is a mass produced stuff going through an ODM like Clevo.
If it isn't, there certainly isn't any reason to expect system76 to be capable of better production than the "mass produced stuff" coming out of eg Dell's XPS line or Lenovo's Carbon line. Especially when those companies have decades of experience and tooling investments here.
But I also don't think the dismissal of "mass produced stuff" is really even fair here. The Clevo and other ODM designs have been quite good for a long time now.
After 10 years of Mac I was ready to give up and switch to System76. Then M1 happened, I don't see myself moving from Mac for the next decade.
I want to like System76, but ultimately can't. Dell, Lenovo and others have much better hardware and still run Linux just as well.
8, 16, 24 or 40 GB of RAM. What is that?
My wild guess: 8GB soldered on the board plus a single DIMM slot for expansion with 8, 16, 32GB modules
Yes definitely this, they are just distributing OEM laptops and can't alter the design decisions at the initial phase. So you end up with loss of some dual channel RAM benefits
Yep. If you click on "[Design + Buy]" you can see the higher amounts are "8GB + 32GB"
"...with 14 hours of battery life" - yes, maybe, but did you see it comes with a large battery (73Wh instead of the usual ~55Wh)? Thinkpad X1s can do ~10-12 hours on the smaller battery. So this is nothing to brag about really. 12th Gen Intel is still way behind the M1, unfortunately.
I also don't get the FHD (16:9) screen, it seems like the Clevo shell has not been updated from past years... :(
I also don't get the FHD (16:9) screen, it seems like the Clevo shell has not been updated from past years... :(
i don't believe it, after buying all kinds of laptops including system76 the only laptop to live up to being usable and keeping long battery life has been my m1 macbook pro. Until these vendors leave intel(to what i don't know) I think it will be difficult to compete
do these laptops suspend/resume as well as macs when you open and close the lid?
I have a previous-generation Lemur Pro and suspend/resume on lid close/open works great.
If you spec Lemur Pro like HP Dev One, it's $300 more expensive.
Can one install Windows on these?
Windows will run on nearly anything but these laptops are often Clevo designs with some mixed and matched parts to get Linux running nicely. The whole point of System76 is to provide Linux support, and that comes at a price.
If you want to run Windows, there are much better options out there for less money.
If you want to run Windows, there are much better options out there for less money.
why would you though? the amount of high-volume, tight margin budget laptops with Windows pre-installed is huge
No AMD. No Gb ethernet. No VGA. Built-in battery. Garbage.
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laptop = lap top, and 0 word on power efficiency, fan noise, and cooling
laptop industry is dead since apple released their M1
laptop industry is dead since apple released their M1
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