Amazon's Book Piracy Problem(hairysun.com)
hairysun.com
Amazon's Book Piracy Problem
https://hairysun.com/amazons-book-piracy-problem.html
47 comments
I think the entire point of this is Amazon doesn't have a piracy problem. You have a piracy problem. We just have this bizarre corporatocracy where if you infringe Amazon's copyright, they're going to fuck you up. If you Amazon infringes your copyright, tough luck. Maybe if you're lucky they'll fix it at some point after they've already fucked your business. It's this bizarre attitude in the US that the bigger and more powerful you are, the less responsible you are for anything you do wrong. Amazon's approach on this is clear anti-competitive behavior. You get better protection from being pirated on their platform only if you distribute with them.
Wouldn't the obvious solution be to sue Amazon in small claims for the price of the sold books? Or are they protected from liability by the DMCA?
That, and/or press for a criminal case.
I suspect there's language in Amazon's sale / author contract that tries to limit this. Given the widespread nature of the abuse, puncturing such terms should be reasonably viable.
17 USC 106 lists among exclusive rights:
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106
And § 501 - Infringement of copyright:
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of this chapter (other than section 506), any reference to copyright shall be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A(a). As used in this subsection, the term “anyone” includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/501
There's a strong case for criminal liability under § 506 - Criminal offenses, see:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/506
I suspect there's language in Amazon's sale / author contract that tries to limit this. Given the widespread nature of the abuse, puncturing such terms should be reasonably viable.
17 USC 106 lists among exclusive rights:
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106
And § 501 - Infringement of copyright:
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of this chapter (other than section 506), any reference to copyright shall be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A(a). As used in this subsection, the term “anyone” includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/501
There's a strong case for criminal liability under § 506 - Criminal offenses, see:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/506
They'll just refund you.
Almost nobody ever notices.
Almost nobody ever notices.
"Speaking of things controversial, is it true that there is a marijuana problem here in Vietnam?"
"No, it's not a problem. Everybody has it."
As an author who will sell less as a result. I have a problem. Hence less incentive to write additional books so if the same happens to an author you happen to read...
Perhaps a bit less dramatic: middlemen (except in egregious cases) are not considered guilty. They're just middlemen. Amazon is not a bookseller, they're simply selling website, payment handling, stocking, even book printing ... services to the real bookseller, and that real bookseller is the one infringing copyright.
We just need to tighten what would be reasonable standard for middlemen to assure copyright is not violated.
We just need to tighten what would be reasonable standard for middlemen to assure copyright is not violated.
You could apply the same logic to the pirate bay, they're just providing a place to browse torrent files but they're not hosting any of the infringing files themselves, just metadata about them.
The issue with Amazon is not that their services can enable copyright violation (any copy machine can do that), but that even if they're notified of such violations, they don't act on them in a decisive way. I doubt anyone would really complain about book piracy if authors could say "hey this book is in print from so and so publisher, so don't allow third parties other than the publisher to sell it" and Amazon acted on it. Or if authors had a way to say "hey Amazon I'm the owner of this ISBN so other formats for this book need my approval to be listed."
The issue with Amazon is not that their services can enable copyright violation (any copy machine can do that), but that even if they're notified of such violations, they don't act on them in a decisive way. I doubt anyone would really complain about book piracy if authors could say "hey this book is in print from so and so publisher, so don't allow third parties other than the publisher to sell it" and Amazon acted on it. Or if authors had a way to say "hey Amazon I'm the owner of this ISBN so other formats for this book need my approval to be listed."
> We just need
This "just" hasn't happened for several years, so what makes you think anyone will do anything about it?
This "just" hasn't happened for several years, so what makes you think anyone will do anything about it?
Under 17 USC 501, if Amazon are selling, distributing, or importing works that are infringing, they're subject to civil and criminal liabilities.
Amazon also operate a Print On Demand service, which would make them the publisher as well, for PoD products:
https://www.amazon.com/Print-Demand-Book-Publishing-Self-Pub...
Amazon also operate a Print On Demand service, which would make them the publisher as well, for PoD products:
https://www.amazon.com/Print-Demand-Book-Publishing-Self-Pub...
Erm ... I'm not sure about PoD. The link is not about Amazon itself providing the service, though I suspect it may.
Not sure why you believe this. It's 100% false.
If someone knowingly sells fraudulent or counterfeit goods, no, they're not "just a middleman."
If someone knowingly sells fraudulent or counterfeit goods, no, they're not "just a middleman."
I guess it all depends on how interested someone is in the specific problem. The war on drugs makes a mule an accomplice. The war on piracy makes a hosting platform an accomplice. Particularly when they are aware of the issue and don't act.
Since Amazon would clearly act if their own products or brands were impacted it stands to reason that not only are they complicit in committing that crime and providing assistance but also that they abuse their position to selectively enforce rules.
Of course there's no incentive to do anything to change this particularly in lobby driven parts of the world where the benefit of the company is paramount. After all the company is the one filling the pockets of legislators and judges.
Since Amazon would clearly act if their own products or brands were impacted it stands to reason that not only are they complicit in committing that crime and providing assistance but also that they abuse their position to selectively enforce rules.
Of course there's no incentive to do anything to change this particularly in lobby driven parts of the world where the benefit of the company is paramount. After all the company is the one filling the pockets of legislators and judges.
Just exactly like those warez bb forums. We are not responsible for the posts there’s no pirated material on our website.
Here are some alternative (English-language) online bookstores - some ship internationally. Some caveats: store selection and discounts will be varied compared to Amazon, and these stores sell new books (not second-hand titles).
- Wordery (UK-based, but free worldwide shipping)
- Book Depository (Owned by Amazon but appears to operately seprately from Amazon. Free worldwide shipping)
- Bookshop.org (US, UK and Spain)
UK-only
- Books etc (free UK delivery)
- Hive (free UK delivery)
- Blackwells (free UK delivery)
- Foyles (free UK delivery over £25)
- Waterstones (free UK delivery over £25)
- WHSmith (free UK delivery over £30)
It's also possible to buy titles direct from some publishers.
- Wordery (UK-based, but free worldwide shipping)
- Book Depository (Owned by Amazon but appears to operately seprately from Amazon. Free worldwide shipping)
- Bookshop.org (US, UK and Spain)
UK-only
- Books etc (free UK delivery)
- Hive (free UK delivery)
- Blackwells (free UK delivery)
- Foyles (free UK delivery over £25)
- Waterstones (free UK delivery over £25)
- WHSmith (free UK delivery over £30)
It's also possible to buy titles direct from some publishers.
Here's some Portland OR, and Texas stores:
- https://www.powells.com/
- https://www.bookpeople.com/
- hpb.com (half price books)
At least in store, HPB sells at the half the cover price (modulo collectibility). This makes getting into 60s/70s scifi schlock especially cheap.
- https://www.powells.com/
- https://www.bookpeople.com/
- hpb.com (half price books)
At least in store, HPB sells at the half the cover price (modulo collectibility). This makes getting into 60s/70s scifi schlock especially cheap.
I'm really surprised nobody has gone class action on Amazon on this.
Every single successful author seems to have hit this on Amazon. It seems like this should be worth a stupid amount of money and well worth taking Amazon on.
Every single successful author seems to have hit this on Amazon. It seems like this should be worth a stupid amount of money and well worth taking Amazon on.
François Chollet posted some more information on Twitter about this, including some pictures of counterfeits.
https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424
https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424
I bought somewhat counterfeit books at least twice on Amazon, several years ago: a real bookseller confused a probably legit cheap paperback reprint with the "good" hardcover edition of an expensive book (it was such a bad edition that it claimed the same ISBN) and an unknown seller sent me a horrible POD paperback instead of the claimed old stock paperback.
In both cases, discussion with people provided full refunds; but now ordering old and/or expensive books on Amazon seems futile.
Since 2016 half of the engineering textbooks I ordered on Amazon has been a shaddy reprint. Most I managed to get a refund, but the process is slow since the shipping is international. After that, I only buy from local stores or directly from the author/editor.
If Amazon wants to avoid responsibility here, they should collect a verified legal identity for all sellers and then the author can just sue the pirate for the full price (on his site) for every copy that was sold on Amazon.
I worked in the Amazon warehouse for a while and (if my memory is correct) for this to work, Amazon would need to have a dedicated area for each vendor so that all vendor X goods are in bay Y, for example but costs would soar!
However, they currently don't do that - Everything gets put anywhere there is space.
There are some areas where stuff is put all together, like for example, there may be a shelf space full of a particular brand of superglue. If more comes in, even from a different vendor, as long as it is given the same ASIN (I think that's how it works - the ASIN is Amazon's internal ID system, sort of) then you can put that superglue with the other superglue in the same shelf space. That means you don't know who's superglue came from what vendor!
So if you received fake superglue and it came out of that shelf with superglue from 10 different vendors, which one sold you the fake?
It's a brilliant system all round: storage is cheap so the vendor doesn't pay high costs, Amazon keeps their costs low as their storage space is fully utilized.
The downside is that counterfeit orgs know this and it's easy to game!
Amazon can legitimately say that they don't know which vendor is the guilty party and no one can prove that vendor X sent in dodgy goods. Not sure if that's a legal defense or not but they have lots of money and you don't!
In fact, I remember someone a few years back on HN mentioned they were kicked off Amazon due to selling counterfeit DVD's (maybe CD's!) even though they were co-mingled so there was no way to tell.
However, they currently don't do that - Everything gets put anywhere there is space.
There are some areas where stuff is put all together, like for example, there may be a shelf space full of a particular brand of superglue. If more comes in, even from a different vendor, as long as it is given the same ASIN (I think that's how it works - the ASIN is Amazon's internal ID system, sort of) then you can put that superglue with the other superglue in the same shelf space. That means you don't know who's superglue came from what vendor!
So if you received fake superglue and it came out of that shelf with superglue from 10 different vendors, which one sold you the fake?
It's a brilliant system all round: storage is cheap so the vendor doesn't pay high costs, Amazon keeps their costs low as their storage space is fully utilized.
The downside is that counterfeit orgs know this and it's easy to game!
Amazon can legitimately say that they don't know which vendor is the guilty party and no one can prove that vendor X sent in dodgy goods. Not sure if that's a legal defense or not but they have lots of money and you don't!
In fact, I remember someone a few years back on HN mentioned they were kicked off Amazon due to selling counterfeit DVD's (maybe CD's!) even though they were co-mingled so there was no way to tell.
"as along as it is given the same ASIN"
That's the crux of the problem.
Items from different vendors should have different ASINs.
That's the crux of the problem.
Items from different vendors should have different ASINs.
Wait does this mean I could setup my own seller account and send empty boxes of slow moving, high value ASINs to Amazon Warehouses and then order them from myself? Assuming that other sellers keep sufficient stock of real products, I should have a good chance of receiving one of those, right? And it would probably take quite a while until this scam is detected.
Physical space shouldn’t matter. This info can be tracked.
Use stickers to associate uniquely identifying data to the items perhaps? Seems too easy a solution..
The work/costs could possibly be even be pushed towards the superglue providers.
The work/costs could possibly be even be pushed towards the superglue providers.
Seems like to avoid legal responsibility they can just continue doing what they’re doing. I’d personally like to change this with respect to consumer safety and counterfeit goods, but our views/opinions don’t seem to have legal backing.
> they should collect a verified legal identity for all sellers
Wait, they don’t require this now?
Wait, they don’t require this now?
That Amazon doesn't treat counterfeits as a problem mean they lost much of my business. I stopped buying any food or medical products on Amazon or eBay after a bad experience where I bought name-brand vanilla for a suspiciously low price, and it came in slightly suspicious packaging.
I couldn't decide what to do with it. It stood untouched until the expiration date, when I tossed it.
I have no idea if it was good or bad, but I've gotten enough fakes from both that it wasn't worth the risk.
I couldn't decide what to do with it. It stood untouched until the expiration date, when I tossed it.
I have no idea if it was good or bad, but I've gotten enough fakes from both that it wasn't worth the risk.
At the very least when Amazon acknowledges that they have sold counterfeit copies of your work, they should be required to pay you what they paid the counterfeiter.
I have a few computer books from amazon that say "NOT FOR RESALE OUTSIDE OF INDIA" in them that were sent straight from an amazon warehouse to me.
> creating a greyscale version would IMO
> drastically lower the user experience
> with my book).
But it would also be more accessible for people who are color blind, which would be cool.
> drastically lower the user experience
> with my book).
But it would also be more accessible for people who are color blind, which would be cool.
If the e-book is similarly dependent on colour, most e-book readers won't provide a particularly good experience either.
Yes, it's possible to read on an emissive tablet, and there are some (limited) colour e-book readers. But most are at best greyscale, if not strictly black-and-white.
Yes, it's possible to read on an emissive tablet, and there are some (limited) colour e-book readers. But most are at best greyscale, if not strictly black-and-white.
Depends on the colours used. The author may have already considered their use of colours, or may have just got lucky and not used any clashing colour combinations.
Unless the book colours are already chosen to achieve this.
Author offers book at inaccessible price, then complains when it is pirated. Information will find a way to be free!
If it was as simple as that it wouldn’t be an interesting story. The story is that someone started selling the authors book illegally and collected proceeds off this sale.
World of difference between just creating a book torrent and actually putting it up for sale and making a profit.
World of difference between just creating a book torrent and actually putting it up for sale and making a profit.
Information already found a way as it's been on LibGen for a long time. What we are discussing now is completely different: someone is profiting from the guy's work using Amazon's platform and this problem extends not to just other authors but all kinds of goods that are counterfeit. This hurts the original creators and vendors and acts as a disincentive in creating value. In the end, it hurts everybody.
Counterfeiters will find a way to be sued. And if Amazon facilitates counterfeiting...
Intellectual property as a concept has been ruthlessly abused by large corporations, and as a result, small creators get their labor stolen and it gets justified because “information wants to be free.”
Oh my, a digital book for almost $40 bucks. The book must be really good.