Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people
https://twitter.com/Spa_Eng/status/1551627809973485573
263 comments
A friend of mine works on the NEOM project, and it really is like winning the lottery. Remote work with an occasional field trip to look at the place. But Google level salary to tell them how to save some data.
The scale of the feeding trough is unimaginable. I saw an advert for NEOM on Piccadilly Circus, the whole entire e-wall, and the place isn't even built yet, so I'm not sure if they're using it to recruit. It's not just what you think of as traditional civil engineering which would require you to be in the desert. The thing is supposed to be a smart city, whatever that means, but every buzzword seems to be required. Machine learning, green energy, internet of things, they seem to want everything.
I did read an article saying the Saudi guy in charge was a bully, so maybe it's not at positive, but worth a look if you can be a sub contractor.
The scale of the feeding trough is unimaginable. I saw an advert for NEOM on Piccadilly Circus, the whole entire e-wall, and the place isn't even built yet, so I'm not sure if they're using it to recruit. It's not just what you think of as traditional civil engineering which would require you to be in the desert. The thing is supposed to be a smart city, whatever that means, but every buzzword seems to be required. Machine learning, green energy, internet of things, they seem to want everything.
I did read an article saying the Saudi guy in charge was a bully, so maybe it's not at positive, but worth a look if you can be a sub contractor.
> A friend of mine works on the NEOM project, and it really is like winning the lottery. Remote work with an occasional field trip to look at the place. But Google level salary to tell them how to save some data.
I was in Saudi Arabia earlier this year and I met quite a few Western engineers and consultants who didn't get as lucky as your friend and had been living in the desert near Neom for > 6 months. IIRC their visas didn't even allow them to leave the region surrounding Neom (which is pretty much just empty desert).
> the place isn't even built yet
It's not built at all yet or has it simply not been completed yet? I keep hearing different things about the status of the project.
I was in Saudi Arabia earlier this year and I met quite a few Western engineers and consultants who didn't get as lucky as your friend and had been living in the desert near Neom for > 6 months. IIRC their visas didn't even allow them to leave the region surrounding Neom (which is pretty much just empty desert).
> the place isn't even built yet
It's not built at all yet or has it simply not been completed yet? I keep hearing different things about the status of the project.
I don't know for sure, but from what I understand it's not livable yet. Changes quickly though, perhaps I'm wrong.
"It's like winning the lottery"
"Guy in charge is a bully"
I certainly don't want to defend the saudis, but let's face it, everyone views the Saudis as semi-gullible fools to be parted with their money, it wouldn't surprise me if they are a bit gruff.
Look, Saudi Arabia should be the ... Saudi Arabia of solar energy, they have a huge amount of capital from oil, and Saudi Arabia is at the juncture of 1) the richest continent 2) the largest continent, 3) the second-largest continent, they have ports with the Mediterranean and Red Sea and Indian Ocean.
"Guy in charge is a bully"
I certainly don't want to defend the saudis, but let's face it, everyone views the Saudis as semi-gullible fools to be parted with their money, it wouldn't surprise me if they are a bit gruff.
Look, Saudi Arabia should be the ... Saudi Arabia of solar energy, they have a huge amount of capital from oil, and Saudi Arabia is at the juncture of 1) the richest continent 2) the largest continent, 3) the second-largest continent, they have ports with the Mediterranean and Red Sea and Indian Ocean.
I spent two years working in Dubai, from 2019 to 2021. I hardly view them as anything but intelligent and ruthless. The upper - upper-middle class studied in the western world, they know more than you think. Plus they have a shitload of money. Don't underestimate the Saudis just because they stick to some weird customs.
You are probably correct, but I've also heard that the Saudis have one huge challenge diversifying out of oil: they are so damn lazy after decades and decades of oil money revenues.
They tried setting up all the satellite colleges in Saudi Arabia, and they couldn't get students to actually try. The US higher ed is full of party students getting rubberstamp diplomas, but there are also a segment (usually harder sciences and premed/prelaw/etc) that work REALLY hard. As I understand it, all of the saudi schools are just rubberstampers, they can't get the hard sciences students.
MBS probably needs to have a really nasty streak, because there is such massive corruption in the Saudi ruling structure.
But again, I don't want to seem like I'm defending them. I cannot wait for alternative energy and BEVs to drop the floor out from under them. They SHOULD have a soft landing with all that sovereign investment money, but... those slush funds can disappear fast... And once America DGAF about the middle east from a security standpoint, they'll just be a bunch of lazy billionaires.
Once the oil is meaningless, America's military shield is gone. Shiite Iran can invade Saudi Arabia, and Iran actually has fighting forces. Saudi Arabia does not.
They tried setting up all the satellite colleges in Saudi Arabia, and they couldn't get students to actually try. The US higher ed is full of party students getting rubberstamp diplomas, but there are also a segment (usually harder sciences and premed/prelaw/etc) that work REALLY hard. As I understand it, all of the saudi schools are just rubberstampers, they can't get the hard sciences students.
MBS probably needs to have a really nasty streak, because there is such massive corruption in the Saudi ruling structure.
But again, I don't want to seem like I'm defending them. I cannot wait for alternative energy and BEVs to drop the floor out from under them. They SHOULD have a soft landing with all that sovereign investment money, but... those slush funds can disappear fast... And once America DGAF about the middle east from a security standpoint, they'll just be a bunch of lazy billionaires.
Once the oil is meaningless, America's military shield is gone. Shiite Iran can invade Saudi Arabia, and Iran actually has fighting forces. Saudi Arabia does not.
Nitpick:
> 1) the richest continent
North America is the richest continent, as I say this as a European.
> 1) the richest continent
North America is the richest continent, as I say this as a European.
Well, China has passed the US in GDP, and India/SE asia probably outclass Canada and Mexico. So really China is the richest and largest.
Europe I guess is historically the richest (except again China before the British invasion).
Europe I guess is historically the richest (except again China before the British invasion).
Richest also means per capita. Tons of people with a bit of money are not as rich as fewer people with lots of money.
People can’t seem to get enough of science fiction, but every time something is presented that would move the needle in that direction, the detractors line up in droves. With attitudes like this, it really will be the 25th century before humanity does do anything of significance (if we even live that long).
Maybe people are hoping more for 'Star trek' than 'Judge dredd'.
I sure hope not. We know that the future of Star Trek only becomes possible after our current society totally collapses, culminating in World War III. TBF, razing everything to the ground and rebuilding society with modern tech in mind is probably a lot faster and more efficient, but I still wouldn't want to live in the "transition" phase.
Just because the Star Trek universe had WWIII doesn’t mean we have to. I would like to live in Star Trek via the path of least suffering, but whatever path, it is the future I wish for generations to come regardless the struggle I personally have to endure.
To wish the current system upon children and children’s children is selfish and cruel beyond imagination.
If people wanted, we could all wake up tomorrow and begin building that better future. It is literally a state of mind at this point — the technology and intelligence necessary is within our current evolutionary form.
To wish the current system upon children and children’s children is selfish and cruel beyond imagination.
If people wanted, we could all wake up tomorrow and begin building that better future. It is literally a state of mind at this point — the technology and intelligence necessary is within our current evolutionary form.
That's easy to say if the bombs are not falling on your head. And I'm also not so sure that the current system can save itself from within. Evolution has navigated us into a dead by favouring immediate benefits over long term ones, now that our influence on the planet transcends our own lifetime. Getting out of that will require something pretty radical.
It’s easy to think of things as a dead end but the optimization landscape is huge, so there is usually some options open. Take say retirement incomes, love it or hate it Social Security was supposed to provide a minimal benefit for elderly workers who already had the option for private savings.
But soon enough we added Medicare, 401k, IRA, etc as independent systems for similar reasons. While I doubt anyone would have ever created the current system from scratch, it’s just one of seemingly endless possibilities.
But soon enough we added Medicare, 401k, IRA, etc as independent systems for similar reasons. While I doubt anyone would have ever created the current system from scratch, it’s just one of seemingly endless possibilities.
I served in war time in Iraq and live a very different life than most. A hot world war would not change my quality of life by much; it may even improve it (less rules in the wild).
I understand the weight of what I say. The trillions of thriving future lives spread throughout our solar system and galaxy are easily worth our suffering.
I agree that the current system has little hope of saving anyone from anything, save a small minority from discomfort for the short term future at the cost of oblivion for everything else in the long term.
I understand the weight of what I say. The trillions of thriving future lives spread throughout our solar system and galaxy are easily worth our suffering.
I agree that the current system has little hope of saving anyone from anything, save a small minority from discomfort for the short term future at the cost of oblivion for everything else in the long term.
Megacities and a brutal legal system are not inexorably paired.
Saudi Arabia and a brutal legal system, however.
Saudi Arabia and a brutal legal system, however.
You know what is significant? Building social housing for your entire population.
I've traveled a bit in my life and at the end of the day for the average untalented non rich person there's nowhere better than Northwestern Europe.
I've traveled a bit in my life and at the end of the day for the average untalented non rich person there's nowhere better than Northwestern Europe.
This really wouldn't move the needle in that direction, it's a complete waste of resources. The only thing we'll learn from this thing is what a bad idea it is.
Which science fiction are you referring to? Neom is the manic fantasy of an extraordinarily depraved trillionaire.
"As more of them arrived, foreign employees began describing their experiences with a joke: When you start at Neom, you bring two buckets. The first is to hold all the gold you’ll accumulate, and with so many living expenses taken care of, it will soon grow heavy. The second bucket is for all the shit you take. When that bucket is full, you pick up your bucket of gold and leave. It often doesn’t take long; many people Neom hires last less than a year."
So it's basically like working at a FAANG, except you have to go sit in the middle of a remote desert to work on your PowerPoints.
So it's basically like working at a FAANG, except you have to go sit in the middle of a remote desert to work on your PowerPoints.
Hmm, a friend of mine worked in Saudi in the mid 1990's, and the (similarly metaphorical) story he told me was slightly different.
When picked up at the airport you are presented the two buckets. When either one is full, it is time to leave.
I expect all employment requires the same trade-off consideration, but I gather in those parts of the world, for ex-pats, both buckets feel like they fill up at an alarmingly brisk rate.
When picked up at the airport you are presented the two buckets. When either one is full, it is time to leave.
I expect all employment requires the same trade-off consideration, but I gather in those parts of the world, for ex-pats, both buckets feel like they fill up at an alarmingly brisk rate.
The difference in media coverage and the reaction that follows when folks in the West (say, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates) dream up ambitious future, and when folks in the East do so, is quite telling.
The difference between those people is not east and west. It's that the first three built their own companies using their own skills and experience in the face of an awful lot of people saying No, while the last one was born a prince to a Trillion-air royal family and grew up surrounded by people terrified to say anything but Yes.
But that's really beside the point. The real issue is this project is a monumental waste of resources. Innovating on advanced technology takes a huge amount of investment, but it doesn't follow that a huge amount of investment, by itself, will result in useful advanced technology.
But that's really beside the point. The real issue is this project is a monumental waste of resources. Innovating on advanced technology takes a huge amount of investment, but it doesn't follow that a huge amount of investment, by itself, will result in useful advanced technology.
It's probably not a very efficient use of capital, but it's better than the Saudis spending it on their military.
Untrue. Most of Musk's "dreams" are ridiculed everywhere, and rightly so. Dystopia is dystopia, no matter where it comes from.
(Although, to make matters worse, MBS is a criminal and a despot.)
(Although, to make matters worse, MBS is a criminal and a despot.)
Ya, I think ideas coming from someone who calls himself "his royal highness" deserve some extra scrutiny.
It's so strange seeing these futuristic dystopian ideas coming from a ruling monarch that was born into the position. It's like they are preserving the worst of humanity's past and preparing to carry it directly into a dystopian future.
It's so strange seeing these futuristic dystopian ideas coming from a ruling monarch that was born into the position. It's like they are preserving the worst of humanity's past and preparing to carry it directly into a dystopian future.
You think nobody takes the piss out of them ? Bezos was the joke of the day he launched a dick rocket.
Have you been living under a rock? The sheer amount of vitriol Elon gets rivals that Trump gets!
We must measure the amount of unearned or undeserved vitriol. Trump’s is 110% deserved. Musk is at about 83%.
Only because he didn’t declare himself candidate. Actually the vitriol seems very much oriented, in French newspapers, it’s unnatural.
He doesn’t do a tenth of Jeff Bezos’ evils and journalists are not talking about Jeff Bezos’ actions on national TV.
He doesn’t do a tenth of Jeff Bezos’ evils and journalists are not talking about Jeff Bezos’ actions on national TV.
He's much louder than Bezos. The upside (EV's going mainstream, reusable rockets, full-globe high-speed low-latency internet connectivity) of Musk also seems bigger.
The amount at least is very disproportionate. He seems to get a more vitriol than Xi Jinping, the Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch, Andrew Wilson, Bill Gates, the Sacklers, Hillary Clinton and Larry Elison combined. Despite far lesser crimes (by the standards of those who dump on Musk).
What do you think it tells you?
> [...] and after talking about Neom in all enthusiasm for a bit the interviewer asked each a simple question: would you live in Neom?
I wonder what the architect of this building [0] would have answered the same question. However, many people live there.
[0] https://i.pinimg.com/originals/07/0c/1f/070c1f5ab8a54d907cca...
I wonder what the architect of this building [0] would have answered the same question. However, many people live there.
[0] https://i.pinimg.com/originals/07/0c/1f/070c1f5ab8a54d907cca...
Those are different things. The promise of Neom is to be this amazing tech city that will attract people to live there.
The building you posted is most likely a public housing or some kind of government trying to build housing for the poor.
The building you posted is most likely a public housing or some kind of government trying to build housing for the poor.
Well it's actually more likely a block of condos (by which I mean apartments all individually sold to owners who then move in or rent out) in China, and judging from this zoomable version https://www.flickr.com/photos/photocapy/252736005 it's actually not even vacant. So, not housing for the poor paid for by taxes but rather housing for the above-the-medians who can afford a flat of their own (not cheap even in China I hear).
> The promise of Neom is to be this amazing tech city that will attract people to live there.
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
As someone who's lived in a commie building, smaller than the one you show, though, I can tell you something.
It's better housing that what you find in many parts of the rich West, at least Western Europe.
You can live a pretty solid middle class life in those buildings and you're not losing much, if anything, you learn a lot, being so close to other people.
It's better housing that what you find in many parts of the rich West, at least Western Europe.
You can live a pretty solid middle class life in those buildings and you're not losing much, if anything, you learn a lot, being so close to other people.
> There was also a very telling interview with architects, builders, concept people etc... and after talking about Neom in all enthusiasm for a bit the interviewer asked each a simple question: would you live in Neom?
Another question, WHO will live in Neom? Saudi Arabia only have 19-20 million native citizens, the rest are all expats.
Another question, WHO will live in Neom? Saudi Arabia only have 19-20 million native citizens, the rest are all expats.
> Another question, WHO will live in Neom? Saudi Arabia only have 19-20 million native citizens, the rest are all expats.
People from extremely poorly managed countries or countries unable to attract investment because of lack of law or other factors. The UAE is 90% or so migrants who will never become citizens. If you have quasi-competent government and are willing to allow migrant workers in you can print money. Paying people from a country where the average daily wage is $2 $20 per day leaves a lot of room for profit margin even in low profit margin low skill manufacturing like textiles, the classic way to kick start the transition from agricultural to manufacturing based economies.
People from extremely poorly managed countries or countries unable to attract investment because of lack of law or other factors. The UAE is 90% or so migrants who will never become citizens. If you have quasi-competent government and are willing to allow migrant workers in you can print money. Paying people from a country where the average daily wage is $2 $20 per day leaves a lot of room for profit margin even in low profit margin low skill manufacturing like textiles, the classic way to kick start the transition from agricultural to manufacturing based economies.
> the rest are all expats
That's probably the point. It's a "city"/prison for people who have no other choice.
That's probably the point. It's a "city"/prison for people who have no other choice.
From the Atlantic profile of MBS earlier this year:
“What struck me was that Neom’s vision is really an anti-vision. It is the opposite of the old Saudi Arabia. In the old Saudi Arabia, and even to an extent today, corruption and bureaucracy layered on each other to make an entrepreneur’s nightmare. Riyadh has almost no public transportation. No matter where you are, you cannot walk anywhere, except perhaps to your local mosque. No one in Neom mentioned religion at all. Even Neom’s location is suggestive. It is far from where Saudis actually live. Instead it is huddled in a mostly empty corner, as if seeking sustenance and inspiration from Jordan and Israel.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohamme...
“What struck me was that Neom’s vision is really an anti-vision. It is the opposite of the old Saudi Arabia. In the old Saudi Arabia, and even to an extent today, corruption and bureaucracy layered on each other to make an entrepreneur’s nightmare. Riyadh has almost no public transportation. No matter where you are, you cannot walk anywhere, except perhaps to your local mosque. No one in Neom mentioned religion at all. Even Neom’s location is suggestive. It is far from where Saudis actually live. Instead it is huddled in a mostly empty corner, as if seeking sustenance and inspiration from Jordan and Israel.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohamme...
That corner of SA is a little cooler due to latitude and the seabreeze. It's also designed to sit atop and support a desalinated water pipeline. So that part seems reasonable.
It's as far from the enemy (Iran) as possible.
I doubt it will get built, but they really have people who understand the fundamental concepts behind Arcology. Honestly I'm surprised at how many parts of the design are well thought-out and well adapted to the desert environment. Sunlight from the sides, but not so much that it overheats the city. Heat escapes up. 5-minute walkable neighborhoods. The proximity to services of cities combined with the roominess of suburbs. At least in theory it's the perfect place to live.
One thing I'm a bit puzzled about is why so many people here describe this as a dystopia or prison. This is super similar to the old utopian sci-fi designs from the 60s/70s. Sure today it seems a bit dated/naive, but hardly dystopian.
One thing I'm a bit puzzled about is why so many people here describe this as a dystopia or prison. This is super similar to the old utopian sci-fi designs from the 60s/70s. Sure today it seems a bit dated/naive, but hardly dystopian.
It's also super similar to the dystopian cyberpunk of the 1980s. With the added dimension that it's ruled by an absolute monarch who presently deploys moral police to stop outrageous things like women stepping outside the house without male relatives accompanying never mind outrageous capital crimes like protest, journalism or homosexuality, which is the sort of society you really don't want to have smart autonomous systems monitoring everything. And a petrostate, so theoretical eco-credentials are going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
The actually built utopian housing and retail projects of the 1960s are widely regarded as dystopian in most Western countries too...
The actually built utopian housing and retail projects of the 1960s are widely regarded as dystopian in most Western countries too...
You should edit or remove parts of your comment. There isn't really the so called "moral police" existent to the level you're describing. Lots of my fellow Americans don't really seem to understand the changes Saudi is undergoing, so I'm not surprised someone would write a comment like yours.
By the way, everyone could be writing about how on every American or European-adjacent topic, those governments are involved in terrible things too (need we talk about torturing people, killing civilians, colonization, genocide, racism, etc.) Anyways, with American support for Saudi, everyone is "implicated" in this.
Let it speak for what it is, and stick to the topic. There's a place for these criticisms, and they are sometimes necessary, but they drown out the idea we should be discussing for low-hanging, emotionally-charged fruit.
By the way, everyone could be writing about how on every American or European-adjacent topic, those governments are involved in terrible things too (need we talk about torturing people, killing civilians, colonization, genocide, racism, etc.) Anyways, with American support for Saudi, everyone is "implicated" in this.
Let it speak for what it is, and stick to the topic. There's a place for these criticisms, and they are sometimes necessary, but they drown out the idea we should be discussing for low-hanging, emotionally-charged fruit.
How the government uses its surveillance and what is and isn't permitted is extremely relevant to the topic of a smart city proposal (and even more relevant to the subthread on whether it could be perceived as "dystopian").
Unlike the paragraph you devoted to "what about the US/Europe" (and discussion of US/European political problems seems to crop up in every discussion of smart city tech in the US/Europe anyway...), which is of no relevance to whether a culturally Saudi $500bn city designed for Mohammed bin Salman's needs would be a utopian dream or a stylish dystopian nightmare. City planning isn't orthogonal to politics either; ask anyone who's paid any attention to Nay Pyi Daw.
As for changes, whether the Crown Prince decision to reduce the formal powers of the "moral police" and make them subordinate to his civil police are characterised more by [slightly] liberalising an extremely illiberal society, window-dressing for Western observers or increasing his personal authority and whether such reforms would accelerate or sharply regress under his successor(s) might have been a more interesting tangent than whether I should shut up. I can understand if you don't wish to speculate on such things, though, especially if you can potentially see yourself living where such discussion is banned in future... in an efficiently monitored, fully-enclosed space shaped like a line.
Unlike the paragraph you devoted to "what about the US/Europe" (and discussion of US/European political problems seems to crop up in every discussion of smart city tech in the US/Europe anyway...), which is of no relevance to whether a culturally Saudi $500bn city designed for Mohammed bin Salman's needs would be a utopian dream or a stylish dystopian nightmare. City planning isn't orthogonal to politics either; ask anyone who's paid any attention to Nay Pyi Daw.
As for changes, whether the Crown Prince decision to reduce the formal powers of the "moral police" and make them subordinate to his civil police are characterised more by [slightly] liberalising an extremely illiberal society, window-dressing for Western observers or increasing his personal authority and whether such reforms would accelerate or sharply regress under his successor(s) might have been a more interesting tangent than whether I should shut up. I can understand if you don't wish to speculate on such things, though, especially if you can potentially see yourself living where such discussion is banned in future... in an efficiently monitored, fully-enclosed space shaped like a line.
Reminds me of atrium-like structures but extended to a massive scale to fit cities. [1]
Regardless of the feasibility of this mega-project, what concerns me is how difficult it would be to escape from living in what is essentially a big mall. Maybe that's what feels dystopian to most people here?
[1] https://youtu.be/VuOyygDRN-w
Regardless of the feasibility of this mega-project, what concerns me is how difficult it would be to escape from living in what is essentially a big mall. Maybe that's what feels dystopian to most people here?
[1] https://youtu.be/VuOyygDRN-w
That's an interesting video, but it focuses on entirely enclosed "interior cities". But the lack of sunlight and connection to the outside has been a known weakness of those places for decades. This "LINE" design at least attempts to address that by providing a massive view to the outside via two 500m-tall transparent walls.
Yes, I guess it does address the lack of exposure to the outside ; my point is that it must be quite difficult to disconnect from "the city" -- advertising billboards, noise... In this case, the outside is even completely devoid of life.
This concern doesn't stop me from being fascinated by urban megastructures such as the "LINE", I'm just not sure I would like to live in them (and I love living in a crowded city nonetheless!).
This concern doesn't stop me from being fascinated by urban megastructures such as the "LINE", I'm just not sure I would like to live in them (and I love living in a crowded city nonetheless!).
That’s what does it for me. You live in a weird tube and all of the nature is artificial. If you do leave, you’re in the desert.
The dystopian side is the lack of squares to protest on ;)
In all seriousness though, the project does look very realistic and I can't find any major flaw with it except that the glass wall will need to be a triple-mirror which is ridiculously expensive.
The other unknown is how an idealized architecture like this stacks against real-life humans who don't care to maintain anything if they're not paid for it.
I do hope they build it.
In all seriousness though, the project does look very realistic and I can't find any major flaw with it except that the glass wall will need to be a triple-mirror which is ridiculously expensive.
The other unknown is how an idealized architecture like this stacks against real-life humans who don't care to maintain anything if they're not paid for it.
I do hope they build it.
I posted down below as well, but I think wind is going to be a big issue for them. A 170km long, 500m tall wall is about the least aerodynamic thing I can think of. I would anticipate that wind issues will be substantial.
My napkin math said that if peak wind speeds hit it dead on, the wind will impart a force of 156N/m^2. A 1 meter wide slice will have to absorb roughly the force of 3 Tesla Model S' pushing on it at full throttle. Across the entire wall, the force is roughly equal to that generated by 381 Saturn V rockets at lift-off.
The other problem is price; they're almost certainly off by at least a couple orders of magnitude. The Burj Rafal is 308m tall with a 20,000m^2 base, and cost $320m, which comes out to $520/m^3. $500bn for this comes out to $29.41/m^3. That price for the Burj Rafal probably doesn't include public infrastructure (electricity generation, water cleaning, sewers, etc), and Neom will be way too big to piggyback on an existing system.
It's a neat idea, I agree I hope they build it, but I hope they do so cautiously. Build a kilometer or three and then revisit the design and costs. Starting with a 170km version of it almost assures that it never actually gets finished.
My napkin math said that if peak wind speeds hit it dead on, the wind will impart a force of 156N/m^2. A 1 meter wide slice will have to absorb roughly the force of 3 Tesla Model S' pushing on it at full throttle. Across the entire wall, the force is roughly equal to that generated by 381 Saturn V rockets at lift-off.
The other problem is price; they're almost certainly off by at least a couple orders of magnitude. The Burj Rafal is 308m tall with a 20,000m^2 base, and cost $320m, which comes out to $520/m^3. $500bn for this comes out to $29.41/m^3. That price for the Burj Rafal probably doesn't include public infrastructure (electricity generation, water cleaning, sewers, etc), and Neom will be way too big to piggyback on an existing system.
It's a neat idea, I agree I hope they build it, but I hope they do so cautiously. Build a kilometer or three and then revisit the design and costs. Starting with a 170km version of it almost assures that it never actually gets finished.
> In all seriousness though, the project does look very realistic and I can't find any major flaw
Except, you know: all the infrastructure needed to build it in the desert. And maintained. And repaired
Except, you know: all the infrastructure needed to build it in the desert. And maintained. And repaired
> The other unknown is how an idealized architecture like this stacks against real-life humans who don't care to maintain anything if they're not paid for it.
Well they'll probably pay for it. I don't know if the idea is to rent or sell housing there, but in both cases it's pretty standard to have provisions for ongoing maintenance.
Well they'll probably pay for it. I don't know if the idea is to rent or sell housing there, but in both cases it's pretty standard to have provisions for ongoing maintenance.
>5-minute walkable neighborhoods. The proximity to services of cities combined with the roominess of suburbs. At least in theory it's the perfect place to live.
The problem with 175 km of continuous "subway" is that you probably don't want to walk more than 2.5 km to the train (if that, it's Arabian hot) so you have 35 stops (5 km apart) along the line at a minimum — with a blistering acceleration of g = 10 m/s^2 you're stuck at an average velocity of 18 km/h, so it's eleven hours of travel end-to-end assuming two minutes at each stop. Those are optimistic assumptions. You can mitigate it slightly by having express trains skip stops, but now it gets complicated, etc. To be anywhere near reasonable you probably want about five actual transit lines on the single "line".
A much less crazy plan would have 8-16 compact neighborhoods at various spacings along the line, where you can get the most out of the directional freedom of walking, and the train can go much faster without having so many stops.
The problem with 175 km of continuous "subway" is that you probably don't want to walk more than 2.5 km to the train (if that, it's Arabian hot) so you have 35 stops (5 km apart) along the line at a minimum — with a blistering acceleration of g = 10 m/s^2 you're stuck at an average velocity of 18 km/h, so it's eleven hours of travel end-to-end assuming two minutes at each stop. Those are optimistic assumptions. You can mitigate it slightly by having express trains skip stops, but now it gets complicated, etc. To be anywhere near reasonable you probably want about five actual transit lines on the single "line".
A much less crazy plan would have 8-16 compact neighborhoods at various spacings along the line, where you can get the most out of the directional freedom of walking, and the train can go much faster without having so many stops.
imagine train lines that stop at prime number stations. so line 2 would stop at station 2,4,6 like 3 would stop at 3,6,9. if you want to get to station 10 you could take line 11 directly to station 11 and then line 1 back. alternatively, you could use an app to calculate the best route based on when you arrived
That probably depends on how many rails and when trains can cross onto other rails. I.e. a basic flow is all trains go one direction on one rail, and they all go backwards on the other. You can use the "wrong direction" rail to pass another train, but only if there's no oncoming train. Waiting for a train to go through so you can cross is effectively the same as stopping at a station.
The answer is to have more rails, but that takes more space, and I'm not sure how much space they're dedicating to the rail system.
Rail scheduling is fascinating; it does make me curious how fast they can make this system in a real world environment.
The answer is to have more rails, but that takes more space, and I'm not sure how much space they're dedicating to the rail system.
Rail scheduling is fascinating; it does make me curious how fast they can make this system in a real world environment.
The video says it's 20 minutes end to end, somehow.
The numbers in my post have some significant errors — I mashed it in just before my plane was taking off — but the argument is one I have seen carried out more carefully elsewhere.
175 km in 20 minutes would be roughly the top speed of the fastest train ever built. I'm doubting that.
175 km in 20 minutes would be roughly the top speed of the fastest train ever built. I'm doubting that.
With an express train from the easternmost stop to the westernmost stop, zero in-between stops... possible, but not very practicable.
A train system wouldn't have to stop at every neighborhood linearly. They could optimize for connections.
Because this is the exact opposite of trying to live at one with your environment. Not saying that cities aren't, but this just screams "wrong" on so many levels.
Why do people go camping? Because it feels so right to connect with the environment.
Why do people go camping? Because it feels so right to connect with the environment.
Hmm, I guess this argument makes sense for the more hippie-oriented types, but as an urbanite the idea of having the convenience of a big city without the overcrowded downsides has me downright drooling.
I go camping once a year to connect with the environment; I wouldn't want to spend the 360-ish other days that way.
I go camping once a year to connect with the environment; I wouldn't want to spend the 360-ish other days that way.
There would be a lot of more places to go camping to if everyone lived in such cities. See how Manhattan would look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs-10eEGEe0
I’m in love with the concept itself! I’d love to live in something like this. I love the walkability idea and the mirror design on the outside.
Sadly, this is not getting built as designed and double sadly is it’s being planned by a PoS running a PoS government.
Also I feel like cities aren’t meant to be designed this way. If nobody lives there, people aren’t gonna want to move there. If nobody is moving there, there won’t be anyone living there. Defeats the entire purpose.
It won’t ever be finished, of course, but I’d be curious as to what incentives they’d offer for moving there.
Sadly, this is not getting built as designed and double sadly is it’s being planned by a PoS running a PoS government.
Also I feel like cities aren’t meant to be designed this way. If nobody lives there, people aren’t gonna want to move there. If nobody is moving there, there won’t be anyone living there. Defeats the entire purpose.
It won’t ever be finished, of course, but I’d be curious as to what incentives they’d offer for moving there.
The mirror idea is really interesting, maybe they want to make the city seem "invisible" to the outside?
I think the hope is attracting investors maybe like Dubai. Turn it into another international hub. There are strong institutional issues with this (especially considering the Kingdom's saudification drive) but I think building it in a relatively sparser area is an attempt to circumvent this.
I think the hope is attracting investors maybe like Dubai. Turn it into another international hub. There are strong institutional issues with this (especially considering the Kingdom's saudification drive) but I think building it in a relatively sparser area is an attempt to circumvent this.
The biggest issue is evolution. Cities are evolutionary to support change and shifts.
Unless the interior can be easily shifted in purpose and construction, but I kind of doubt it.
Then again, "overflow" settelements can function for evolution.
Soooooo many workers will die building even a part of this.
Unless the interior can be easily shifted in purpose and construction, but I kind of doubt it.
Then again, "overflow" settelements can function for evolution.
Soooooo many workers will die building even a part of this.
Even if you like urbanism, this promotional video (from neom themselves) has convinced me that it would be dystopian. All the nuance and uniqueness of places replaced with a homogeneous form, nope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs-10eEGEe0 "How would Manhattan look with the vertical urbanism being adopted for THE LINE?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs-10eEGEe0 "How would Manhattan look with the vertical urbanism being adopted for THE LINE?"
have you read anything about the proposed legal structure?
Concepts for linear cities have been around for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_city
https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroFuturism/comments/uh9mhp/the_l...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_city
https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroFuturism/comments/uh9mhp/the_l...
City of the future built by a government stuck in the dark ages.
Building something like this in a democratic society is probably impossible. The reason is that there would be massive opposition to this and rhetorically powerful claims that the trillions of dollars this would cost in a Western society could be put to better use. Even if, by some Deus ex machina, one administration managed to get this project going, the next to come into power would likely can it.
Space is a perfect example. There's no technical reason we haven't established footholds on Mars and even the Moon, beyond the dilemma posed above. One administration would start a grand space program, the next would cancel it with partisan criticism, and start their own. And this has been going on for half a century.
Real progress back towards space only meaningfully restarted when private companies (or the owners thereof) started to become wealthy enough to fund their own space programs, without any regard for social criticism or worry about their leadership being canned next year if they don't get enough votes. Ironically this helped also somewhat kickstart governments back towards a focus on space as well.
Space is a perfect example. There's no technical reason we haven't established footholds on Mars and even the Moon, beyond the dilemma posed above. One administration would start a grand space program, the next would cancel it with partisan criticism, and start their own. And this has been going on for half a century.
Real progress back towards space only meaningfully restarted when private companies (or the owners thereof) started to become wealthy enough to fund their own space programs, without any regard for social criticism or worry about their leadership being canned next year if they don't get enough votes. Ironically this helped also somewhat kickstart governments back towards a focus on space as well.
> There's no technical reason we haven't established footholds on Mars and even the Moon
Lack of atmosphere, dangerous voyage, radiation, lack of easily available nutrients, dangerous weather, different gravity, likely one way voyages
and of course the everpresent lack of any particular economic incentive to do so
Lack of atmosphere, dangerous voyage, radiation, lack of easily available nutrients, dangerous weather, different gravity, likely one way voyages
and of course the everpresent lack of any particular economic incentive to do so
I should have added unsurmountable reason. With that, everything you've listed was overcome 53 years ago when we set foot on the Moon, aside from food. But within those 53 years we've grown food in space - a far less hospitable environment than the Moon and especially Mars, and even achieved a few other useful things along the way as well.
It won't be easy of course, but it's entirely possible. And has been for decades. Wernher von Braun, architect of the Apollo program, was the first individual to lay out technical plans for the colonization of Mars. He would go on to ultimately retire from NASA precisely due to this specific conflict between politics and progress in space.
It won't be easy of course, but it's entirely possible. And has been for decades. Wernher von Braun, architect of the Apollo program, was the first individual to lay out technical plans for the colonization of Mars. He would go on to ultimately retire from NASA precisely due to this specific conflict between politics and progress in space.
> With that, everything you've listed was overcome 53 years ago when we set foot on the Moon, aside from food.
Overcome for what? 20 days? Have we overcome any of those items for say, a 1 year old stay? I doubt it.
Overcome for what? 20 days? Have we overcome any of those items for say, a 1 year old stay? I doubt it.
> I should have added unsurmountable reason. With that, everything you've listed was overcome 53 years ago when we set foot on the Moon, aside from food.
Food is the easiest of everything mentioned. You just send them with enough food to last a while, and then send more
> But within those 53 years we've grown food in space
No, we've grown it in small controlled environments that are in space. We do not regularly grow crops in space to feed astronauts. The spatial requirements are too large to do it on the ISS.
> a far less hospitable environment than the Moon and especially Mars, and even achieved a few other useful things along the way as well.
They're pretty much equally hostile. On the moon the ground is super toxic dust. Mars doesn't really have soil like The Martian suggests. You might be able to make it work but again, not without a huge controlled environment.
> It won't be easy of course, but it's entirely possible. And has been for decades. Wernher von Braun, architect of the Apollo program, was the first individual to lay out technical plans for the colonization of Mars.
The only way we 'colonize' mars is by shipping them an absurd amount of crap and commit to the fact that they will do nothing productive aside from not dying there. They won't be able to farm. They won't be able to build domes or underground lairs. They'll sit in their starship heavies to hide from radioactive death beams and eat prepackaged food while a solar panel outside keeps the lights on.
Let's look at von Braun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mars_Project
> In his introduction to The Mars Project, von Braun stated that his study was not yet complete. He said that he had omitted the details of some topics that would need to be addressed further, including the eccentric orbit of Mars, interplanetary astronavigation, meteor showers, and the long-term effects of spaceflight on humans.[2]
> There are other shortcomings in The Mars Project that von Braun could not have anticipated in 1948. He had not planned on any uncrewed exploratory missions to Mars taking place before the first human expedition, and he had not foreseen the technological advances that would take place, or the development of robot spacecraft.[4] It was not until 1965 that the uncrewed Mariner 4 spacecraft found that the density of the Martian atmosphere was only one tenth of what had been estimated, making it clear that the huge winged gliders planned by von Braun would not have had enough lift to be able to descend safely onto the surface of Mars.[1] The danger of high energy solar and cosmic radiation beyond low Earth orbit was not known in 1948. The Van Allen radiation belts were not discovered until 1958, and von Braun did not plan for the protection of the crews from such radiation, whether in space or on the Martian surface.[1]
Food is the easiest of everything mentioned. You just send them with enough food to last a while, and then send more
> But within those 53 years we've grown food in space
No, we've grown it in small controlled environments that are in space. We do not regularly grow crops in space to feed astronauts. The spatial requirements are too large to do it on the ISS.
> a far less hospitable environment than the Moon and especially Mars, and even achieved a few other useful things along the way as well.
They're pretty much equally hostile. On the moon the ground is super toxic dust. Mars doesn't really have soil like The Martian suggests. You might be able to make it work but again, not without a huge controlled environment.
> It won't be easy of course, but it's entirely possible. And has been for decades. Wernher von Braun, architect of the Apollo program, was the first individual to lay out technical plans for the colonization of Mars.
The only way we 'colonize' mars is by shipping them an absurd amount of crap and commit to the fact that they will do nothing productive aside from not dying there. They won't be able to farm. They won't be able to build domes or underground lairs. They'll sit in their starship heavies to hide from radioactive death beams and eat prepackaged food while a solar panel outside keeps the lights on.
Let's look at von Braun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mars_Project
> In his introduction to The Mars Project, von Braun stated that his study was not yet complete. He said that he had omitted the details of some topics that would need to be addressed further, including the eccentric orbit of Mars, interplanetary astronavigation, meteor showers, and the long-term effects of spaceflight on humans.[2]
> There are other shortcomings in The Mars Project that von Braun could not have anticipated in 1948. He had not planned on any uncrewed exploratory missions to Mars taking place before the first human expedition, and he had not foreseen the technological advances that would take place, or the development of robot spacecraft.[4] It was not until 1965 that the uncrewed Mariner 4 spacecraft found that the density of the Martian atmosphere was only one tenth of what had been estimated, making it clear that the huge winged gliders planned by von Braun would not have had enough lift to be able to descend safely onto the surface of Mars.[1] The danger of high energy solar and cosmic radiation beyond low Earth orbit was not known in 1948. The Van Allen radiation belts were not discovered until 1958, and von Braun did not plan for the protection of the crews from such radiation, whether in space or on the Martian surface.[1]
The amount of material resources in space are breathtaking. Asteroid mining has the potential of delivering multiples of the amount of elements we've mined for our entire history in single asteroids. That alone could sustain a space economy.
There also isn't our massive gravity well. If you have materials (see point 1) it is easier to build large installations. We should be able to build GIGANTIC underground habitats in the moon.
There was also the powers-of-ten energy use as we climb Kardashev levels. That only happens with space settlement.
The other economic fact is that we have too many people for the Earth to sustain already AT THE CONSUMPTION THEY WANT. Sure we can impose a resource restriction by fiat (communism/authoritarian) or availability/poverty (capitalism), take your pick.
Space will come more easily with cybernetics. In a hundred years humans may be very very very different. But footholds are worthwhile.
But ultimately your comment harkens to the lack of vision of humanity, mostly I view it as a sign of increased control by the leisure elite over the world. They control the money and politics, and all they want are status and enjoyment, and the rest of the world to support them.
We have a thin margin for species survival right now. It's kind of like how when the tipping point for global warming in the 1990s was happening, everyone in America bought SUVs.
Sad.
There also isn't our massive gravity well. If you have materials (see point 1) it is easier to build large installations. We should be able to build GIGANTIC underground habitats in the moon.
There was also the powers-of-ten energy use as we climb Kardashev levels. That only happens with space settlement.
The other economic fact is that we have too many people for the Earth to sustain already AT THE CONSUMPTION THEY WANT. Sure we can impose a resource restriction by fiat (communism/authoritarian) or availability/poverty (capitalism), take your pick.
Space will come more easily with cybernetics. In a hundred years humans may be very very very different. But footholds are worthwhile.
But ultimately your comment harkens to the lack of vision of humanity, mostly I view it as a sign of increased control by the leisure elite over the world. They control the money and politics, and all they want are status and enjoyment, and the rest of the world to support them.
We have a thin margin for species survival right now. It's kind of like how when the tipping point for global warming in the 1990s was happening, everyone in America bought SUVs.
Sad.
> The amount of material resources in space are breathtaking. Asteroid mining has the potential of delivering multiples of the amount of elements we've mined for our entire history in single asteroids. That alone could sustain a space economy.
At immense, non-economical cost. This idea is great in sci fi but we have nothing close to the technology to pull it of cheaper than mining things on earth
>There also isn't our massive gravity well. If you have materials (see point 1) it is easier to build large installations.
Point 1 is still sci fi
> We should be able to build GIGANTIC underground habitats in the moon.
Immense cost for no benefit
> There was also the powers-of-ten energy use as we climb Kardashev levels. That only happens with space settlement.
... and significant advancements in energy generation / capture
> Space will come more easily with cybernetics.
More sci fi non existing tech
> In a hundred years humans may be very very very different.
Sci fi
> But ultimately your comment harkens to the lack of vision of humanity, mostly I view it as a sign of increased control by the leisure elite over the world. They control the money and politics, and all they want are status and enjoyment, and the rest of the world to support them.
Ok and your vision of what we need to be doing now seems to consist of liking science fiction and ignoring realistic constraints.
At immense, non-economical cost. This idea is great in sci fi but we have nothing close to the technology to pull it of cheaper than mining things on earth
>There also isn't our massive gravity well. If you have materials (see point 1) it is easier to build large installations.
Point 1 is still sci fi
> We should be able to build GIGANTIC underground habitats in the moon.
Immense cost for no benefit
> There was also the powers-of-ten energy use as we climb Kardashev levels. That only happens with space settlement.
... and significant advancements in energy generation / capture
> Space will come more easily with cybernetics.
More sci fi non existing tech
> In a hundred years humans may be very very very different.
Sci fi
> But ultimately your comment harkens to the lack of vision of humanity, mostly I view it as a sign of increased control by the leisure elite over the world. They control the money and politics, and all they want are status and enjoyment, and the rest of the world to support them.
Ok and your vision of what we need to be doing now seems to consist of liking science fiction and ignoring realistic constraints.
Well, SPYWAREGORILLA have fun coding spyware, the height of technology in the internet age.
No really, it is.
That's the current crown of human achievement. All corporations and government know everything about you.
Written by you. I hope you're a total sociopath for your sake because all you can hang your crown on is enabling dystopia.
I can see why you don't want people in space. You can't spy on them as easily. The future of earth is authoritarian dominance and eventual death of the species.
The future of space at least has the hope of being better.
Have fun making the world a terrible place, dude.
No really, it is.
That's the current crown of human achievement. All corporations and government know everything about you.
Written by you. I hope you're a total sociopath for your sake because all you can hang your crown on is enabling dystopia.
I can see why you don't want people in space. You can't spy on them as easily. The future of earth is authoritarian dominance and eventual death of the species.
The future of space at least has the hope of being better.
Have fun making the world a terrible place, dude.
I just like the purple monkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy
I'd prefer it to a city of the dark ages built by a government of the future.
I would prefer a city of the dark ages MANAGED by government of the present. And since the dark ages are just part of the middle ages and we stretch our definition a bit, that's mostly what we have in Europe.
That's applicable for the US too.
What "city of the future" has the US built? We can barely get decent public transit in most cities? But we're certainly headed to the dark ages...
Yeep back sliding into ranch flavored Afghanistan.
Like technology, cities of the future are slowly built. Just dig into what New York city is doing in alternate/green energy. This doesn't happen overnight, unless you're a magical Middle-Eastern YouTube video.
> What "city of the future" has the US built?
Los Angeles.
Los Angeles.
No.
Not really. The US had its absurd large scale infrastructure spending. Looking at you Robert Moses. But they didn't just walk out into a field and start planning insane cities.
If you're refering to dark ages it's only applicable to Europe just like Black Death is mainly European based pandemic [1],[2]. When Europe is in their dark ages the rest of the world seems fine. Heck it is only applicable to certain parts of Europe because some of the European countries and regions are doing really well [2],[3]. You probably know this anyway hence new account for trolling.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople
[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople
[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain
China and India likely had huge numbers dead due to the Bubonic Plague, but it's poorly recorded as far as I know. Definitely not 'mainly' a European pandemic, although it had such a great influence on European culture that we still talk about it today.
It's mainly a European pandemic. During the 14th century CE when the Black Death occurred, China and India were the two biggest and richest empires with the most literacy in the world. The probability that such significant event was not properly recorded is very low. Most of the Asian countries' history that we know today including Japan are known from the ancient and later Chinese writings [1].
[1]Japanese History Documented in Chinese Writings:
https://studycorgi.com/japanese-history-documented-in-chines...
[1]Japanese History Documented in Chinese Writings:
https://studycorgi.com/japanese-history-documented-in-chines...
"This episode of bubonic plague spread to all inhabited continents, and ultimately led to more than 12 million deaths in India and China"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_plague_pandemic
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_plague_pandemic
I'm refering specifically to the Black Death that is mainly European pandemic during the dark ages period not the later multiple derivatives of it.
The Bubonic Plague and the resulting depopulation is the root cause of humanism, Renaissance, Enlightenment, and eventual recognition of human rights.
176 km. Why don't they make a 1 kilometer proof of concept then plan the other 175 once they've ironed out the kinks?
If you would be the designer of this thing, how soon would you want the gig to be up ?
The purpose of this thing is not economical, or political, or social - the purpose is to satisfy the ego of an autocrat, and as long as that ego is getting stroked, the money will continue to flow.
The purpose of this thing is not economical, or political, or social - the purpose is to satisfy the ego of an autocrat, and as long as that ego is getting stroked, the money will continue to flow.
Oh, so the purpose of this thing is political.
I would argue against that, because I don't see any way that this projects supports either the internal or external policies of the kingdom - in order to support that, it would need to be realistic and credible, and its neither.
Its basically just like tradition. Each no person who want to be a big player in Saudi must announce a new future cities.
They have many already, all of them unfinished and unpractical. And then the money moves on the a new city of the future.
I think is basically just a status competition 'my city is gone be a revolutionary design'.
The guy after MBS will likely try a city in a spiral or something.
They have many already, all of them unfinished and unpractical. And then the money moves on the a new city of the future.
I think is basically just a status competition 'my city is gone be a revolutionary design'.
The guy after MBS will likely try a city in a spiral or something.
That’s too scary, what if the product doesn’t find market fit? Let’s just build the complete product first with VC money.
Reminds me of the movie Snowpiercer in reverse: desert instead of snow, static instead of moving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowpiercer
Which was an adaptation of a French comic from 1982 : Le Transperceneige.
Is it good? Worth getting?
Make it a circle, get rid of the mirror, fill in the center. Bam! You got yourself a city.
A circle is harder to build and has more issues regarding sunlight. The sun hitting the building(s) is both a benefit (solar cells) and a problem (heat generation) at the same time. A linear structure will get a much more even energy distribution than a circle.
Also one of the goals of the project is to reduce the energy needs of the population by making ways shorter. If you spread a city out on a circle, you got a much more complicated and expensive transportation problem than just the linear structure presented here.
Also one of the goals of the project is to reduce the energy needs of the population by making ways shorter. If you spread a city out on a circle, you got a much more complicated and expensive transportation problem than just the linear structure presented here.
I think transport would be infinitely worse in a linear city.
In a traditional street network, there are many ways to get from A to B and one link being unavailable is not the end of the world. Forcing everyone onto essentially the same street is guaranteed to cause both high fragility and high congestion, since everyone has to squeeze into the same line.
In a traditional street network, there are many ways to get from A to B and one link being unavailable is not the end of the world. Forcing everyone onto essentially the same street is guaranteed to cause both high fragility and high congestion, since everyone has to squeeze into the same line.
There's no need to have only one line to connect everything, even in a linear structure. It's still about the topology.
At the simplest there would be one line connecting from end to end, which should be the fastest and the one with the fewest stops. But then you have smaller lines, travelling in their own tubes, connecting local areas. That way you can travel between any two points relatively fast and avoid congestion. You can build redundancy into this system. But also, it's not a catastrophe on a normally 20 minute trip if there is blocked section and you have to walk a few minutes, take a local connection to bypass the blockage and then go on. Happens to me all the time...
The big benefit in a linear city is that the transport pods never need to turn around. You also don't need to manufacture curved rails or things like that. You can build structures like that in a "2D" city, but it's harder.
At the simplest there would be one line connecting from end to end, which should be the fastest and the one with the fewest stops. But then you have smaller lines, travelling in their own tubes, connecting local areas. That way you can travel between any two points relatively fast and avoid congestion. You can build redundancy into this system. But also, it's not a catastrophe on a normally 20 minute trip if there is blocked section and you have to walk a few minutes, take a local connection to bypass the blockage and then go on. Happens to me all the time...
The big benefit in a linear city is that the transport pods never need to turn around. You also don't need to manufacture curved rails or things like that. You can build structures like that in a "2D" city, but it's harder.
In 2D, you can build a grid of straight line railways. Riders transfer zero or one times. Cost scales proportionally to area (and hence population) assuming constant density. Time between two random points scales as sqrt(size). Ridership on a given rail segment scales like sqrt(size), which may be tolerable.
In 1D, you can build a linear railway. Cost scales proportionally to length (and hence population) if you assume that the the railway merely needs to get longer as population grows, but this gives a system where ridership on a given rail segment scales linearly with population, which is much worse. Time between two random points also scales linearly with population. The added costs associated with improving performance given the worse scaling seem likely to blow the whole thing up.
In 1D, you can build a linear railway. Cost scales proportionally to length (and hence population) if you assume that the the railway merely needs to get longer as population grows, but this gives a system where ridership on a given rail segment scales linearly with population, which is much worse. Time between two random points also scales linearly with population. The added costs associated with improving performance given the worse scaling seem likely to blow the whole thing up.
It's harder to build a grid of straight railways. You need more bridging or crossing at the very least. You are right about 2D being more efficient in terms of the length between two random points, but there could be scenarios where the simplicity still outweighs that benefit, especially given all the other factors in this project, like sunlight.
The length is also much less of a concern than in traditional transport systems because of less friction and less need to brake, so most of the energy is for accelerating and decelerating at the stops.
Of course it would blow up if you wanted to build a fully connected city that is twice that length or even longer, but that's not proposed.
The length is also much less of a concern than in traditional transport systems because of less friction and less need to brake, so most of the energy is for accelerating and decelerating at the stops.
Of course it would blow up if you wanted to build a fully connected city that is twice that length or even longer, but that's not proposed.
I’d assume this linear city would also involve a lot of bridging, since due to the width trains would basically almost be on top of each other.
Trains crossing perpendicular have to bridge maybe 6m at most. You’d have to bridge the entire length of city for this. And a fire would render any lines above or below unsafe to run until extinguished.
Trains crossing perpendicular have to bridge maybe 6m at most. You’d have to bridge the entire length of city for this. And a fire would render any lines above or below unsafe to run until extinguished.
> In 2D, you can build a grid of straight line railways. Riders transfer zero or one times. Cost scales proportionally to area (and hence population) assuming constant density. Time between two random points scales as sqrt(size). Ridership on a given rail segment scales like sqrt(size), which may be tolerable.
I doubt this would work. Cities don't do this for a reason.
Transit lines get built according to transportation needs, not mathematical coverage of the space. You have pockets of housing that need to get to pockets of commerce. You can't practically run transit cars connecting [0,0] and [end, 0].
I doubt this would work. Cities don't do this for a reason.
Transit lines get built according to transportation needs, not mathematical coverage of the space. You have pockets of housing that need to get to pockets of commerce. You can't practically run transit cars connecting [0,0] and [end, 0].
A lot of big city metro networks look like grids in the city center, or effectively function as such. Farther out the grid is plugged in by bus.
Can you provide an example of a city with a grid-like metro? I know many grid like cities. I cannot think of any grid like metros.
Grid like comes with a caveat. Most grids are only in city center (so that lines can connect to every other line in the city with most demand), and subways are not often grids but rather interlocking L shapes and curves depending on which radial direction out of city center got to have a subway first (but usually you can still see distinct gridlike patterns). And then there's geographic impediments like where streets and parks are.
Beijing is a grid: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Beijing_...
Shanghai is a grid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro#/media/File:Sha...
Tokyo is grid-like east and south of the Imperial Palace: https://i0.wp.com/transitmap.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/...
Taipei has a grid: https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=1BE0AF76C79F9A38
The gridded portion of Manhattan has a grid between 14th St and Central Park: https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=1BE0AF76C79F9A38. Buses fill out the grid in outer areas like the Bronx: https://new.mta.info/map/5366
Paris is gridded about as much as it can be due to the non-grid road layout: https://www.ratp.fr/sites/default/files/plans-lignes/Plans-e...
Berlin is gridlike: https://sbahn.berlin/en/route-map/
Beijing is a grid: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Beijing_...
Shanghai is a grid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro#/media/File:Sha...
Tokyo is grid-like east and south of the Imperial Palace: https://i0.wp.com/transitmap.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/...
Taipei has a grid: https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=1BE0AF76C79F9A38
The gridded portion of Manhattan has a grid between 14th St and Central Park: https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=1BE0AF76C79F9A38. Buses fill out the grid in outer areas like the Bronx: https://new.mta.info/map/5366
Paris is gridded about as much as it can be due to the non-grid road layout: https://www.ratp.fr/sites/default/files/plans-lignes/Plans-e...
Berlin is gridlike: https://sbahn.berlin/en/route-map/
I feel like these are examples of what I was claiming more than anything
Remember, this is still a 2D project. The second dimension is up! Instead of XZ axes, it's XY.
Your point about length is true, but about population scale might not, because it's still in 2D. There are still ways to segregate tracks.
Your point about length is true, but about population scale might not, because it's still in 2D. There are still ways to segregate tracks.
Vertical poses a lot more problems than horizontal, though. As a general example, fire generally makes it unsafe to operate anything above or below.
Most people in Hong Kong don't own a car, it's just not necessary due to the high density. This city is expected to to be ~15 times as dense as Hong Kong.
You don't need high density to not need a car. Its totally possible to design cities where most people don't need cars that are not full of huge towers.
The idea that car-free or very limited car is only possible if you have absurd density is false.
Its totally possible to have nice suburbs that are totally walkable and don't require a car for 90% of the population.
The idea that car-free or very limited car is only possible if you have absurd density is false.
Its totally possible to have nice suburbs that are totally walkable and don't require a car for 90% of the population.
You don’t have to be in a car to experience street congestion. Hong Kong has plenty of areas with bus, metro or pedestrian congestion.
If everyone in Hong Kong was shoved into one train line, it would also be congested.
If everyone in Hong Kong was shoved into one train line, it would also be congested.
Remember, this is still a 2D project. The second dimension is up! Instead of XZ axes, it's XY.
There are still multi layer travel options available. And some previously unthinkable possibilities (e.g. moving walkways like the kind you see in airports, for short distances within a block – or different colored trains on different levels like ground/underground) are still possible.
There are still multi layer travel options available. And some previously unthinkable possibilities (e.g. moving walkways like the kind you see in airports, for short distances within a block – or different colored trains on different levels like ground/underground) are still possible.
But if you knew that everyone has to use that same street, you could dimension it properly because you know exactly what to expect.
If it’s 200m wide you could probably get 6-8 trains running parallel.
wrong on all counts. A disc has the same transit "solution" that a line does, just draw a spiral. for a line however, this is the only solution, and boy is it terrible. Imagine if society were all in one skyscraper and the only mode of transit was the elevator.
Nah, keep the mirror. Then you can focus the light into the middle and you have a built-in incinerator for any dissidents / journalists who might pop up.
[deleted]
They want everyone to have a view of nature, not of city.
They are planning to pay a mighty high cost for a bunch of views of desert and stony mountains. Not that I am knocking the views, they have a certain serene value to them, but it is not that hard to get those types of views in Saudi Arabia.
If it works fine, they can build another one on Mars.
Apple HQ ?
Ignoring all the baggage that of comes along with who is planning this, this gives real strong Sim City 2000 Arcology vibes.
Isn't sand going to start piling up on the side that the wind usually blows from?
I think it would have regularly spaced tunnels traversing the structure and they would just move sand with machines if necessary.
They could also put nets some kilometers in front of the thing to catch most of it and deposit itself as dunes there, maybe try to fixate is with some vegetation if at all possible.
They could also put nets some kilometers in front of the thing to catch most of it and deposit itself as dunes there, maybe try to fixate is with some vegetation if at all possible.
If I were building this I would leave a large space open on the bottom, I would not have the walls go all the way to the ground.
Aside from sand, it also lets animals, humans, and vehicles pass through.
Aside from sand, it also lets animals, humans, and vehicles pass through.
Doesn't matter how large the space is, it will fill up eventually.
I would love to see someting like this happen. It's a shame there seems to be so many petty, envious people hoping it fails.
I'm not hoping it fails. But I will take some joy in the inevitable implosion of an obvious white elephant project obviously made for political (corruption) reasons.
This project is not based in reality, or has any consideration for reality. It is obviously inefficient in it's basic geometry (circle beats line) let alone after looking at the actual numbers. A 200m tall 170km long wall is not going to work. They claim you will be able to travel end to end in 20mins. Thats 510kph without acceleration or deceleration. That's 50kmph faster than the current fastest train (Shanghai Maglev) all whilst being within 200m of 9 million people.
And all of this will be zero carbon of course, with a passively controlled temperate climate in the desert. Nice of them to throw some trees in the graphics to show that.
This is made to pay consultants and businesses, and keep the man in charge happy. I'm not hoping it fails. If they reach all of these milestones and it even turns out to be vaguely ok, I will literally eat my hat, hold my hand up and say I was wrong. But when it doesn't I will take some joy in the mess of a story that comes out.
This project is not based in reality, or has any consideration for reality. It is obviously inefficient in it's basic geometry (circle beats line) let alone after looking at the actual numbers. A 200m tall 170km long wall is not going to work. They claim you will be able to travel end to end in 20mins. Thats 510kph without acceleration or deceleration. That's 50kmph faster than the current fastest train (Shanghai Maglev) all whilst being within 200m of 9 million people.
And all of this will be zero carbon of course, with a passively controlled temperate climate in the desert. Nice of them to throw some trees in the graphics to show that.
This is made to pay consultants and businesses, and keep the man in charge happy. I'm not hoping it fails. If they reach all of these milestones and it even turns out to be vaguely ok, I will literally eat my hat, hold my hand up and say I was wrong. But when it doesn't I will take some joy in the mess of a story that comes out.
At 56k per person for both living and working space plus associated infrastructure, 500bn doesn’t seem like nearly enough.
Probably not, but I also wouldn't presume Western economics. Saudi has supply to unlimited low-cost labor from Africa. Things get built with virtually no labor costs relative to the West.
I think I would be miserable without a yard, though. I don't think I want to spend my life inside of a manufactured block.
I think I would be miserable without a yard, though. I don't think I want to spend my life inside of a manufactured block.
Millions of people already live in manufactured blocks of some sort of other under worse conditions than presented here.
This is not a space habitat. It is climate controlled, it has access to the surroundings and there actually isn't that much building around you at any time. The major difference is that it is more thought out and uniform over a large area. It's not going to be built, ever, but it's a nice idea and some of the counter arguments aren't valid.
This is not a space habitat. It is climate controlled, it has access to the surroundings and there actually isn't that much building around you at any time. The major difference is that it is more thought out and uniform over a large area. It's not going to be built, ever, but it's a nice idea and some of the counter arguments aren't valid.
I still don't think it's close to enough.
At 170km long, 200m wide, 500m tall, the volume is 17,000,000,000 m^3. They're planning on spending just $29.41 per m^3.
Just trying to get a point of reference, the Burj Rafal is 308m tall with a 20,000 m^2 plot and cost $320M. Running the numbers they spent $520/m^3 on that, and it's shorter (I presume added height increases costs and complexity). Infrastructure was also likely already provided by the city, and not counted in that budget.
Honestly, I think even material costs are at least an order of magnitude higher than they want. The scope of this boggles the mind. They need 170M m^2 of mirrored glass just to cover the outside of this.
That's not even touching the foundation and reinforcement it takes to support a 170km long, 500m tall wall that's going to bear all the force of wind coming off the ocean. Wind speeds seem to peak at about 16m/s, so the force on a 1m section of the wall would be ~78 kN. That's roughly the force of 3 Tesla Model S' at full acceleration (but spread vertically). The force across the entire wall would be equal to ~381 Saturn V rockets at lift-off, or about 23 times the force that sunlight exerts on the entire Earth.
At 170km long, 200m wide, 500m tall, the volume is 17,000,000,000 m^3. They're planning on spending just $29.41 per m^3.
Just trying to get a point of reference, the Burj Rafal is 308m tall with a 20,000 m^2 plot and cost $320M. Running the numbers they spent $520/m^3 on that, and it's shorter (I presume added height increases costs and complexity). Infrastructure was also likely already provided by the city, and not counted in that budget.
Honestly, I think even material costs are at least an order of magnitude higher than they want. The scope of this boggles the mind. They need 170M m^2 of mirrored glass just to cover the outside of this.
That's not even touching the foundation and reinforcement it takes to support a 170km long, 500m tall wall that's going to bear all the force of wind coming off the ocean. Wind speeds seem to peak at about 16m/s, so the force on a 1m section of the wall would be ~78 kN. That's roughly the force of 3 Tesla Model S' at full acceleration (but spread vertically). The force across the entire wall would be equal to ~381 Saturn V rockets at lift-off, or about 23 times the force that sunlight exerts on the entire Earth.
Neo has a nice video on this, though without the new design update from the tweet. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=41sgRP0G6y4
It's interesting seeing the twitter comments:
[1]
> I never seen something more dystopian
>> Come on, you are in Los Angeles, just go to the corner if you want to see something more dystopian.
[2]
> What about human rights ?
>> I dunno ask your government.
------------
1. Their strategy seems to be "Deflect. Deflect. Deflect.". They never address criticism. They just focus on other problems.
2. If your response to a question about human rights is "I don't know", everyone should be scared.
------------
[1] https://twitter.com/adara_salim/status/1551750220643307525
[2] https://twitter.com/keeganc15/status/1551678707672178697
[1]
> I never seen something more dystopian
>> Come on, you are in Los Angeles, just go to the corner if you want to see something more dystopian.
[2]
> What about human rights ?
>> I dunno ask your government.
------------
1. Their strategy seems to be "Deflect. Deflect. Deflect.". They never address criticism. They just focus on other problems.
2. If your response to a question about human rights is "I don't know", everyone should be scared.
------------
[1] https://twitter.com/adara_salim/status/1551750220643307525
[2] https://twitter.com/keeganc15/status/1551678707672178697
I’m getting flashbacks of the dubai palm island when they were constructing it. Everyone was wondering why, and who would even live there. But they don’t care, these places are basically like NFTs, they make so much money selling spots that it does not matter.
It's not a guarantee. Around the time when they built the palm island thing, they also build the islands that look like a world map. Quite a bit of what was built is now melting into the ocean, never built on and unmaintained.
To me it kinda made sense. A beach front single family properties. Suburbs are a thing so why not one even more upscale version.
The world however was lot more questionable.
The world however was lot more questionable.
Has nobody considered the possibility of such vast, shiny external reflector walls absolutely, very literally roasting the surrounding landscape when struck by the already ferocious Arabian sun? How would a person even survive openly coming close to this fascinating monstrosity from either side at certain times of the day? I remember a story about sunlight reflections bouncing from the "Walkie Talkie" Building in London to then scorch some poor fellow's car in the streets below at certain times of day in the summer. NEOM strikes me as a would-be case of this on a truly infernal scale.
You are missing the central point of the Walkie-Talkie and Disney-Concert-Hall controversies. These are Frank-Gehry(-style) buildings, and in those roughly half of all surfaces is a concave and half is a convex mirror. THIS concentration to one point is what turns the summer sun into death rays.
Reflected sun, by definition, has a little less energy than direct sun. So, given the mirror walls are straight, as the designs show, you get (at maximum) 200% of normal desert sun energy, which isn't comfortable, but not a Gehry-style death ray.
Reflected sun, by definition, has a little less energy than direct sun. So, given the mirror walls are straight, as the designs show, you get (at maximum) 200% of normal desert sun energy, which isn't comfortable, but not a Gehry-style death ray.
You're grossly understating just how brutal it would be. While you're right about how concave mirror surfaces truly create lethal concentrations of energy, this vast reflective surface would still unbearably heat the land next to it at certain times of day. 200% of Arabian Peninsula levels of solar heat as only "uncomfortable"? You've got to be kidding.
i have been on a street adjacent to a zero curvature mirrored building and it almost turned me into a terrorist
What will this solve? What if a fire breaks out? Can protestors block a single street? Where are people going to dry clothes? Won't those who live at the base feel claustrophobic?
Most of these problems are probably already solved or could be solved. You are of course using dry cleaning services in some form. Fire suppression systems are built in. The structure is quite narrow, so you have a view to the outside from pretty much anywhere, and it's not much worse than any skyscraper, better probably because of (hopefully) better design.
As to social aspects... That is my major concern also. Of course this city has a police force and would clean up anybody blocking the central hubs. There is no street btw, but rather different kinds of corridors for walking and trains of different speeds and ranges. I guess it is relatively easy to disturb the system, on the other hand if realized there would probably be an authoritarian kid of police force making sure nobody does.
As to social aspects... That is my major concern also. Of course this city has a police force and would clean up anybody blocking the central hubs. There is no street btw, but rather different kinds of corridors for walking and trains of different speeds and ranges. I guess it is relatively easy to disturb the system, on the other hand if realized there would probably be an authoritarian kid of police force making sure nobody does.
Makes sense. What about sports and entertainment - can it fit football fields or concert venues?
> You are of course using dry cleaning services in some form
People are moving out of dry cleaning into "wet cleaning" to avoid chemical solvents. Wet cleaning requires a drying machine.
People are moving out of dry cleaning into "wet cleaning" to avoid chemical solvents. Wet cleaning requires a drying machine.
Hot, dry air should be easy enough to get at that location. Just need some means of recovering the water as that will be more scarce.
A 175KM long clothesline? </sarc>
Yikes. Never gonna happen.
I mean, christ scale it back a bit no?
I mean, christ scale it back a bit no?
Given it’s designed in chunked neighborhoods with some sort of standardized system to allow commuting across the whole of its structure quickly, it absolutely sounds like something that could be built and tested in pieces.
Exactly. Cities evolve organically, over decades and centuries. An up-front design like this will never come to be. Something may come from it, but it will be much more similar to a regular city than this.
> up-front design like this will never come to be
Paris [1] and D.C.’s cores were engineered. Several cities after WWII were bombed to a blank slate.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_...
Paris [1] and D.C.’s cores were engineered. Several cities after WWII were bombed to a blank slate.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_...
Canals of Amsterdam was the one of the first centrally planned city development in 17th century and it still stands (and it quite enjoyable to live in) today. They did run out of money in the middle of building it though so the eastern part of the plan didn't happen. Smart money is on something similar happening to this as well.
All those plans build on existing cities, existing population, existing economics. People in 17th didn't just go out and build Amsterdam.
You really compared it.
Maybe something like Brasília or something is a better comparison.
You really compared it.
Maybe something like Brasília or something is a better comparison.
Yes, but they still evolve. Looking at this concept, all of the city will be within two walls. I doubt it will be that way. It will soon start to sprawl outside.
> all of the city will be within two walls
Almost zero chance the labourers and support infrastructure is within the walls. Similar to how Manhattan (or any functional urban core) outlays low-value facilities.
(To be clear, I think none of this will be built. But it’s not fundamentally unsound.)
Almost zero chance the labourers and support infrastructure is within the walls. Similar to how Manhattan (or any functional urban core) outlays low-value facilities.
(To be clear, I think none of this will be built. But it’s not fundamentally unsound.)
Designed cities are absolutely a thing in the two states that I've lived in. They'll build a bunch of amenities and a bunch of houses / townhomes all at the same time or near the same time and then people gobble up the town homes and already have a grocery store and a bunch of restaurants in this new, previously unoccupied area.
>Cities evolve organically, over decades and centuries. An up-front design like this will never come to be.
Is it really different from what the communists did, except with a more modern design?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_planning_in_communist_...
Is it really different from what the communists did, except with a more modern design?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_planning_in_communist_...
They had this in Hong Kong. It's called the Kowloon Walled City. Quiet amazing actually. It almost ruled itself in that the police did not want to deal with the drug dealers and all the police were paid off. Check out Chasing the Dragon that used the city as a backdrop.
[deleted]
Yeah, the commie housing blocks were actually practical, unlike building something so tall.
New Bone Saw City
Both awe inspiring and frightening, considering the source.
Technological utopia meets sociological dystopia.
Technological utopia meets sociological dystopia.
As usual in Saudi Arabia, more big PR about some magical technology city. Of course the other cities they have started with many of the same promises are now-where near complete.
Its an utterly absurd and incredibly dumb and expensive design. We literally know how to get the best cities already. This is just a way to hook people who have never thought about city design at all.
I guess you can't make nice marketing videos with the message 'we will design new city with traditional grid pattern and a mix of town-houses and apparent building designed with streets that are primary for walking/bicycle use while providing some transportation infrastructure'.
Even on a purely theoretical level, if you strip away all the practical issues, I still don't get how this city would be superior in anything.
P.S: MBS is literally an incompetent fool. His military and diplomatic policy when he came to office made him seem like a 5 year old who got on the computer to finish his fathers Starcraft game.
Its an utterly absurd and incredibly dumb and expensive design. We literally know how to get the best cities already. This is just a way to hook people who have never thought about city design at all.
I guess you can't make nice marketing videos with the message 'we will design new city with traditional grid pattern and a mix of town-houses and apparent building designed with streets that are primary for walking/bicycle use while providing some transportation infrastructure'.
Even on a purely theoretical level, if you strip away all the practical issues, I still don't get how this city would be superior in anything.
P.S: MBS is literally an incompetent fool. His military and diplomatic policy when he came to office made him seem like a 5 year old who got on the computer to finish his fathers Starcraft game.
I think this is fucking AWESOME. I get all of the criticisms, but if they can pull this off, it'll be so fucking cool.
$500 billion..and to think bezos + musk + one google fonder can fund this alone. crazy
but it would probably cost way more than $500 billion
but it would probably cost way more than $500 billion
Already reports of the project being unable to retain key executives because of irrational demands by government officials. [0]
This is going to be much harder than anyone realizes.
0: https://www.wsj.com/articles/expatriate-executives-flee-saud...
This is going to be much harder than anyone realizes.
0: https://www.wsj.com/articles/expatriate-executives-flee-saud...
Its going to be an unmitigated disaster!
9M residents housed, 170 km traveled in 20 minutes- all for the low low price of 0.5T USD. An obsession with narrowing the width of the city to 100m! This is some kind of "visionary fantasy" of an idiot who has become a dictator. Sounds like a plan a 10 year old would chalk up.
9M residents housed, 170 km traveled in 20 minutes- all for the low low price of 0.5T USD. An obsession with narrowing the width of the city to 100m! This is some kind of "visionary fantasy" of an idiot who has become a dictator. Sounds like a plan a 10 year old would chalk up.
Are they going to build it on Tiran island or?
What gets finished first Oxagon or The Line? NEOM is clearly having fun.
https://globetrender.com/2022/03/03/saudi-arabia-oxagon-floa...
What gets finished first Oxagon or The Line? NEOM is clearly having fun.
https://globetrender.com/2022/03/03/saudi-arabia-oxagon-floa...
In efficient and mostly essential-focused civilization, enough money for a decent living cannot flow to households by only abiding to the supply-and-demand economic rules: this is dangerous to believe in such utopia, it is similar to the soviet one.
It is even more accute when related to being able to afford an accomodation: countries and cities around the world are increasing significantly their public housing share, to a point private housing becomes the lesser way.
Heard Singapore is at 80% and Vienna at 65%. But here, we are talking about Singapore and Austrian cultures, in which that amount of public housing could work, in many other cultures you will end up with unmaintained slums.
It is even more accute when related to being able to afford an accomodation: countries and cities around the world are increasing significantly their public housing share, to a point private housing becomes the lesser way.
Heard Singapore is at 80% and Vienna at 65%. But here, we are talking about Singapore and Austrian cultures, in which that amount of public housing could work, in many other cultures you will end up with unmaintained slums.
So when someone finally gets fed up with them and declares war on the Saudis, they can basically terrorize a large fraction of the nation just by setting fires to the giant structure at regular intervals. Imagine trying to evacuate from that thing.
To not assume complete stupidity, I'd imagine the Saudi's are looking at Dubai's success in locking in foreign capital into real-estate speculation, and want to imitate that. I'm sure they're hoping to stir up interest and lock in as much speculative commitment before anything is done and are treating it like the world is their Softbank.
Doing this while being surrounded by yes-men and not being grounded in reality is a recipe for disaster, I just hope they don't burn some pension fund money along the way.
I for one don't wish to see Megacity Wahid built, but I hope they burn as much money as possible along the way.
Doing this while being surrounded by yes-men and not being grounded in reality is a recipe for disaster, I just hope they don't burn some pension fund money along the way.
I for one don't wish to see Megacity Wahid built, but I hope they burn as much money as possible along the way.
Saudi Arabia has a looooong way to go before they can imitate Dubai's (or even the whole of UAE's success). One of the key to Dubai's success is that it's cultural climate is not restrictive and not as repressive as other countries of the middle-east (even the other emirates in UAE are way more open then Saudi Arabia). Compare that with the outlook of Saudi Arabia who think that women need to be segregated into their own city to be allowed to work ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/aug/12/saudi-arabia-c... )! Even muslims from many asian countries that make up the majority of expats working in the middle-east find Saudi Arabia's version of "Islamic Society" repressive (why wouldn't they - imagine not allowing muslim women to work because of their warped understanding of Islam, when the Islamic Prophet's first wife was an international business women who was once also his boss - https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/not-just-a-footnote-prop... !). Speaking anecdotally, I know many who work in the middle-east, who have declined to work in Saudi Arabia despite better pay, simply because they are concerned about the cultural environment of Saudi.
Saudi arabia is in a transitional era right now, if you visited post-covid you would see the changes occurring. This is not only because of MBS but he is a factor. I think it is hard to explain the workings of a society to one who has not visited. To give you an example, on a recent pilgrimage a few months ago, in the Holy Cities of Makkah and Madina, I saw both women and male workers. To be sure there are still many issues (labor notwithstanding), but I'm told the country post-covid is different than pre-covid.
Anyways, we can also say a lot about terrible things happening in the US and Europe, but with Saudi Arabia specifically I think people put misplaced hate on things when there are in reality problems everywhere.
Anyways, we can also say a lot about terrible things happening in the US and Europe, but with Saudi Arabia specifically I think people put misplaced hate on things when there are in reality problems everywhere.
265,000 people per sqkm, that's some nice population density. Cool concept, but I wonder what they mean by "equitable views". I presume not all housing units will be on the edges given that it's 200m wide.
Maybe housing will be on the edges, with commercial and industrial zoning in the middle.
Population density is really the most important factor when considering building in a desert.
I had the same thought but at the same time, population density can be desirable in itself and not just out of necessity. I'd definitely rather live in a dense city rather than in the desert country side.
I think that is very over-rated. Really nice cities with very urban environment don't actually have to be very dense, even if they feel like that.
And places that are very dense can still be worse then a US subburb in terms of feeling like a city.
One concept from a city planner said basically urbanism is not about density. Connectivity and access is what makes a good city, not density.
You can have a city with anywhere between 50k and 5M feel very livable and nice. And you can have a city with between 50k and 5M feel like a lonely place. Its all about the city design.
And places that are very dense can still be worse then a US subburb in terms of feeling like a city.
One concept from a city planner said basically urbanism is not about density. Connectivity and access is what makes a good city, not density.
You can have a city with anywhere between 50k and 5M feel very livable and nice. And you can have a city with between 50k and 5M feel like a lonely place. Its all about the city design.
This is basically the New Urbanist plan from the book “Carfree Cities” but with more of a vertical dimension and all the curves of the central railroad unfolded into a straight line. It doesn’t seem totally impossible.
I wonder about many things when I see this, but to pick out one detail: won't those mirror walls soon get damaged by the wind carrying sand? And, when you stand in front of them and the sun is up, won't that get quite hot? And, wouldn't it be better to somehow use the walls to collect solar power (thermal or electrical) from them instead of letting them just reflect the light? And won't birds in great numbers crash into the façade like people in a house of mirrors? And isn't it ugly?
Very cyberpunk.
Well, cyberpunk 2077 has more than a few bone saws already.
How else are we going to get to the future we deserve?
I was thinking about something like this a few years ago. I felt like a linear city could work if it was basically treated like a game of snake.
There would be a constantly advancing head region that pushed ever forward as new structures were needed.
It would prevent NIMBY because once constructed, changes would be minimal, yet there would always be a place where new projects were welcome.
As the snake wound its way forward, anything in it's path would be trampled or assimilated.
There would be a constantly advancing head region that pushed ever forward as new structures were needed.
It would prevent NIMBY because once constructed, changes would be minimal, yet there would always be a place where new projects were welcome.
As the snake wound its way forward, anything in it's path would be trampled or assimilated.
Doesn't the ground move? How are they going to keep it in ... a line?
They would have to build independent sections that, over time, will shift relative to each other.
They would have to build independent sections that, over time, will shift relative to each other.
Or the segments don't shift but rather the connections to their foundations move by a few millimeters a year. Then the foundations would be independent and move and the whole thing can still be perfectly straight the whole time.
I wonder who would live there? Somehow I really doubt people from first world would go. Then third world? Doesn't seem like a cheap place.
Presumably he’s building it to house his own people, and people of a similar culture to them.
He is a prince after all, developing the nation is one of the first duties of an monarch since the country “belongs” to you.
He is a prince after all, developing the nation is one of the first duties of an monarch since the country “belongs” to you.
30 years from now this mega structure will begin to socially fall apart and be run by drug dealers.
We’ve seen this movie before.
Judge Dredd all over again.
We’ve seen this movie before.
Judge Dredd all over again.
Kowloon Walled City
According to German Wikipedia, former Ex-Siemens-CEO Klaus Kleinfeld is in charge of the NEOM Project.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Kleinfeld#Projekt_Neom/
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Kleinfeld#Projekt_Neom/
This is the city imagined in the dystopian books we read as children warning us to never reach.
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I wonder how this would compare to paying a similar amount to reverse desertification?
Totally unrealistic. How long do they have to build this? A few years? Even the worst slave driving culture ever can't get enough slaves for something this crazy in that time frame.
It's a really interesting concept though.
It's a really interesting concept though.
I don't think they need to build 170km at once.
Good for the environment? It will block animals and birds migrating. I can see that concentrated living to lower the footprint of cities is good but the design is like a big barrier
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Maybe this is a prison for all the world’s convicts. If you try escaping, you have to cross ocean or desert. This population has no choice where they live.
Of course, we should live in overpriced, crowded, “sustainable” matchboxes while Their Highnesses will continue to live in x000 sq foot mansions.
Reminds me somewhat of a human ant colony. Surprised it isn't underground, but then ecological concerns seem not to be a priority.
It's sure shaped like a human ant farm.
there's a similar concept a couple years ago that proposes excavating new york's central park and building skyscraper walls on all sides. seems like egotists around the world are interested in this type of concept because it is simple to understand.
If you wanted to create a wall to defend some part of the world without raising alarms, it would be a good way to do it.
It’s all fun and games until whatever transports people through the line gets blocked
Suddenly then you have “the segments”
Suddenly then you have “the segments”
I don't think there is enough extractable riversand on planet earth for that amount of glass.
Glass is made from melted sand, so taking the raw materials from the desert is just fine.
Desert sand doesn't contain enough silica. It's mostly gypsum.
Yes, that is easy. Now the concrete inside this thing on other hand...
Let me know if it breaks ground, a lot things like this just end up being basically vapor ware.
Dictator announces mega city, just like dozens of dictators before him. See: New Cairo City
$500bn to house 9m would be a steal. I’d definitely buy a condo there for $55k
Not that this will actually be built, but construction costs are probably low in Saudi Arabia since they use quasi slave labor.
Ok. This guy is unhinged. I very much doubt this goes much farther beyond CGI.
this is what you'll expect if you plan t live there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc_cHzviGn4
"...like nothing on earth seen before..."
was this video made by an AI?
was this video made by an AI?
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linear prison
Why so tall? First plans we saw were underground structures.
Humans really haven't figured out a cheap way to dig a lot of dirt yet. It's also painfully slow.
It's about $175 per cubic meter if you have a huge project and are able to benefit from any economies of scale. A cubic meter is about 1.5 tons of soil.
And then you've got to truck all that dirt somewhere.
It's about $175 per cubic meter if you have a huge project and are able to benefit from any economies of scale. A cubic meter is about 1.5 tons of soil.
And then you've got to truck all that dirt somewhere.
While the FSO Safer is a potential $20B humanitarian disaster in the Red sea that needs less than $20M more to start offloading the oil. Hope that the Houthi's do not sabotaged it to make him look like a fool.
> humanitarian disaster in the Red sea that needs less than $20M more to start offloading the oil
The Safer is at a Yemeni port [1], with recent UN safekeeping attempts having been inhibited by the Houthis. The environmental damage and economic cost will be borne almost entirely by western Yemen. Houthi territory.
TL; DR This is irrelevant to Riyadh’s global standing.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSO_Safer
The Safer is at a Yemeni port [1], with recent UN safekeeping attempts having been inhibited by the Houthis. The environmental damage and economic cost will be borne almost entirely by western Yemen. Houthi territory.
TL; DR This is irrelevant to Riyadh’s global standing.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSO_Safer
Look at the winter map - over half of the coast is Saudi by week 3.
> over half of the coast is Saudi by week 3
So the proposed strategy involves taking out the main rebel-controlled ports as well as their fisheries while doing aesthetic damage to Saudi Arabia? (Yanbu won’t be disrupted by an oil spill that far away.) This is nonsense. Hell, I see more sense in Riyadh busting the tanker.
So the proposed strategy involves taking out the main rebel-controlled ports as well as their fisheries while doing aesthetic damage to Saudi Arabia? (Yanbu won’t be disrupted by an oil spill that far away.) This is nonsense. Hell, I see more sense in Riyadh busting the tanker.
Nonsense? As you state the Houthis have been inhibiting the safekeeping attempts, which amounts to sabotage; kind of dismissive to call affecting at least 3 Saudi desalination plants and Jizan "aesthetic" damage in addition to the effects on the Houthi like the blockage of shipments including food aid to Houthi controlled ports https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8682806/bin/NIH... Tactically, given the odds of a more advantageous outcome now during the summer it might make sense for the Saudi's to destroy it as this winter will likely be its last one fueled and the target June 1 UN defueling start date has long past, but the assured strategic international response seems more concerning. What would be nonsense would be to try and connive VC amounts of money off of this like making a deal with the Houthis to let a group of hired "Somali" pirates siphon off the oil and blame any "slow leak" scenario on the thieves.
Why a line? Surely a square grid would be better in every way? Less energy loss, more places within walkable distance, better transport scaling..
Cool idea, sounds pretty impractical as stated.
Cool idea, sounds pretty impractical as stated.
Accessible nature = scorching-heat desert. Great for cycling i guess
This whole project - Why? Whoever sold this to the Saudis, bit prankster
This whole project - Why? Whoever sold this to the Saudis, bit prankster
This is a relaunch of another such plan over a decade ago. Yawn.
A lot of skepticism in this thread, even some form of jealousy
It's better than the soviet union like buildings they are promoting everywhere in the world, including in the US
We need to optimize cities as much as possible, that's for sure, this project is a step in the right direction
It's better than the soviet union like buildings they are promoting everywhere in the world, including in the US
We need to optimize cities as much as possible, that's for sure, this project is a step in the right direction
Maybe not jealousy, but you don't think skepticism is valid when Cities are (relatively) easy to build but ensuring they are livable<>populated is hard?
We need to get there no matter what, what's you plan?
If on earth we can't manage to build ultra optimized cities, then how do you expect we be able to build ultra optimized space stations, or bases on the moon/mars?
We need to experiment yesterday so we are ready today
It's better to invest our money in the next random Web3.0 project, that's for sure, why trying to optimize a whole city anyways? /s
If on earth we can't manage to build ultra optimized cities, then how do you expect we be able to build ultra optimized space stations, or bases on the moon/mars?
We need to experiment yesterday so we are ready today
It's better to invest our money in the next random Web3.0 project, that's for sure, why trying to optimize a whole city anyways? /s
I just like Saudi Arabia for their treatment of migrant workers and the Kafala system. The treatment of women doesn't help either.
I personally can't get enough of this foolish mega-project, I love the dry reporting on it.
Here's one of the latest: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2022-mbs-neom-saudi-arabi...
There was also a very telling interview with architects, builders, concept people etc... and after talking about Neom in all enthusiasm for a bit the interviewer asked each a simple question: would you live in Neom?
And the uncomfortable shifting in the seats and vague answers that followed were very telling. No one believes in this, not even the people working on it.