Ask HN: Anyone else disillusioned from working in tech
81 comments
This is exactly how I felt at one point. Then I got to know the startup world, which was exactly what I was thinking career in tech would be. An answer to your questions might be a good startup that solves a problem that you genuinely values. Before jumping into startup ship though, keep in mind that experience in startup can be horrible/wonderful depending on the founders and cultures, and especially because everything is moving very fast. For a college grad, one of the most important things in my opinion is to first find a company (big corp might be the one, don't frown, focus on learning instead) with a mentor whom you can learn from. It takes discipline and hard-work to get to have the necessary skills to write manageable and scalable codebase. After that, you can consider doing your startup or joining an early stage startup. Also there's an entire different category of startup called "indie startups". You can check out indiehackers.com and some inspirational indie startup founders such as Peter Levels. (I'm not affiliated in any way, I just feel so blessed by learning from them! )
Startups are the definition of being bought up or busting. It's incredibly rare that they do anything of use other than create IP and devs for a big corp to swallow.
Modern tech doesn't solve problems that mean anything. After we made calculators, excel, 3d modeling, phones etc - the world wonder was complete. Now we're just trying to add all sorts of ways to get money from people for things they dont need, rent seeking a solution looking for a problem. It's all a about massive amounts of money, not actually solving a problem.
The most useful tech startup will be one that ends tech startups, and begins startups in the foundations of society. Agriculture, social culture, education, construction, governance, etc.
But, let's be honest, we like the money, and as much as we can complain about where it comes from and it's incentives, it's also why we're here.
Modern tech doesn't solve problems that mean anything. After we made calculators, excel, 3d modeling, phones etc - the world wonder was complete. Now we're just trying to add all sorts of ways to get money from people for things they dont need, rent seeking a solution looking for a problem. It's all a about massive amounts of money, not actually solving a problem.
The most useful tech startup will be one that ends tech startups, and begins startups in the foundations of society. Agriculture, social culture, education, construction, governance, etc.
But, let's be honest, we like the money, and as much as we can complain about where it comes from and it's incentives, it's also why we're here.
That's a very reductionist view on the topic. I work in a fintech startup which automates detecting online fraud (our customers are mostly various online stores). I'd say it provides concrete value for society. There are thousands of startups like that, which generally increase efficiency in some existing business processes, or in manufacturing, shipping etc.
> I get work is first and foremost an exchange of labour for money, and not supposed to be fun. But aren't there more options I missed so far?
I felt the exact same way. The truth is most jobs are CRUD or CRUD-like. Not just in tech, but in most professions. How many doctors see the exact same cases day in and day out? How many lawyers fill out routine legal forms? The truth is most professionals are not doing anything challenging or ground breaking and they are well overqualified. If you want fulfillment from your work then I recommend you start your own small business because it will challenge you in more ways than software engineering alone will. Either that or do what most of the population does and have 2.5 kids and a house with a white picket fence. It might come off as cliché, but life is what you make of it.
I felt the exact same way. The truth is most jobs are CRUD or CRUD-like. Not just in tech, but in most professions. How many doctors see the exact same cases day in and day out? How many lawyers fill out routine legal forms? The truth is most professionals are not doing anything challenging or ground breaking and they are well overqualified. If you want fulfillment from your work then I recommend you start your own small business because it will challenge you in more ways than software engineering alone will. Either that or do what most of the population does and have 2.5 kids and a house with a white picket fence. It might come off as cliché, but life is what you make of it.
Life is what you make of it as long as it's 2.5 kids and boring work or starting a small business that has a 90% chance of failure.
> or starting a small business that has a 90% chance of failure.
Better a challenge than living in corporate drudgery.
It’s ultimately up to the individual. OP can always quit mainstream society and join a monastery. I know someone who did just that.
Better a challenge than living in corporate drudgery.
It’s ultimately up to the individual. OP can always quit mainstream society and join a monastery. I know someone who did just that.
I love how the options you're presenting keep getting worse.
Monastary
Jumping off a bridge
Life of drudgery
business that has slim chance of success
Monastary
Jumping off a bridge
Life of drudgery
business that has slim chance of success
> I love how the options you're presenting keep getting worse.
Every option has its pro’s and con’s. A corporate job brings security, but drudgery. Starting your own business brings challenge, but a high chance of failure. Joining a monastery means you’re free of mainstream societies problems, but you’re also missing the benefits.
If there was a perfect option then we’d all be pursuing it and there would be no reason to have this discussion.
Every option has its pro’s and con’s. A corporate job brings security, but drudgery. Starting your own business brings challenge, but a high chance of failure. Joining a monastery means you’re free of mainstream societies problems, but you’re also missing the benefits.
If there was a perfect option then we’d all be pursuing it and there would be no reason to have this discussion.
Slavery has security and good excercise benefits with the trade off of being owned.
It's not perfect but it's an option!
It's not perfect but it's an option!
in today's world there are ways to make the drudgery a bit less soul-crushing. work from home, flexible working time or 80% arrangements, gig economy.. I would say its actually getting much better for the average drone.
My response to the post title: abso-fucking-lutely. I just passed my 4th year in the fintech industry, and am incredibly burned out and, yes, disillusioned. I'm currently about to take my first steps towards switching careers into game dev in the hope that (a) I can actually find a job in that field and (b) it'll be more fulfilling and less soul-crushing, as a result of being both creative and more aligned with why I got into programming in the first place. I don't know if it will, but I need to try some change or collapse internally.
All I can say is, if you go into a field you don't like, it will take a mental toll. My suggestion is to try applying to developer relations roles; they may want someone with more experience, but that doesn't mean that's all they'll accept. It's worth at least putting in applications to make yourself an option, and if they say no, then you're no worse off than you started.
In my journey, I'm currently trying to learn Unity as my "foot in the door" skill for applications (all my previous game dev experience has been with pure JS and Game Maker Studio, which no game dev company seems to be looking for), but I'll be applying before I really have experience with Unity anyway just to put my name on hiring managers' lists.
Good luck, friend; may we both find a fulfilling way to pay for the food we need to survive! :)
All I can say is, if you go into a field you don't like, it will take a mental toll. My suggestion is to try applying to developer relations roles; they may want someone with more experience, but that doesn't mean that's all they'll accept. It's worth at least putting in applications to make yourself an option, and if they say no, then you're no worse off than you started.
In my journey, I'm currently trying to learn Unity as my "foot in the door" skill for applications (all my previous game dev experience has been with pure JS and Game Maker Studio, which no game dev company seems to be looking for), but I'll be applying before I really have experience with Unity anyway just to put my name on hiring managers' lists.
Good luck, friend; may we both find a fulfilling way to pay for the food we need to survive! :)
If you're burned out from fintech, what's drawing you to game dev -- one of the other famous meatgrinder industries for software developers?
I'm probably biased by my own experience, but if you've only worked in fintech... please give tech a second chance! I worked at one of the most famous fintech companies in the world for my first few years in industry, and I absolutely understand how it can burn you out and disillusion you. But I assure you that switching to a medium-size tech company that builds open source products for developers really refreshed my perspective on tech.
I'm probably biased by my own experience, but if you've only worked in fintech... please give tech a second chance! I worked at one of the most famous fintech companies in the world for my first few years in industry, and I absolutely understand how it can burn you out and disillusion you. But I assure you that switching to a medium-size tech company that builds open source products for developers really refreshed my perspective on tech.
I'm currently at one of the biggest fintech companies in the world. I understand that game dev is at least as much work/grind, but the key difference is that it's creative. Even if I'm not making the top decisions, you can't develop a game with zero creative input; whereas I've spent the last 4 years implementing other people's function-first designs for a webapp, and the most creative things I've done here was implement a search filter and add an unrequested multiselect input to a form. And I'm not even exaggerating that.
I've been coding for 20 years now, since I was 12. I first got into programming for creative reasons, and every bit of coding I've done for myself in those 20 years has been game development or game related. It's why I got into programming, it's why I continued programming, it's why I got my degree in computer science. The only reason I didn't go for a game dev degree was because I'm not great at visual art and I assumed I'd fail the degree requirements over that. I just happened to choose the wrong game engine and language to learn all those years ago.
So I understand there will be crunch in game dev, but I'm fine with crunch as long as I can be creative during it. Coding to other people's uncreative specs is not worth the stress; coding to something I have creative input on would be.
I've been coding for 20 years now, since I was 12. I first got into programming for creative reasons, and every bit of coding I've done for myself in those 20 years has been game development or game related. It's why I got into programming, it's why I continued programming, it's why I got my degree in computer science. The only reason I didn't go for a game dev degree was because I'm not great at visual art and I assumed I'd fail the degree requirements over that. I just happened to choose the wrong game engine and language to learn all those years ago.
So I understand there will be crunch in game dev, but I'm fine with crunch as long as I can be creative during it. Coding to other people's uncreative specs is not worth the stress; coding to something I have creative input on would be.
You'll have to aim for really small game dev companies, if not start your own, to have creative input that's outside of the technical role you have. Game dev is just as unromantic as fintech, once you get to a bigger project and the natural separation of concerns happens. sadly, which is why I personally dropped it when I did game dev. I was hired mainly for my computer science knowledge even though they said I could have input on other things. But you don't have a say over the others usually, since they are more experienced and there isn't time to make mistakes you can learn from. You're busy implementing stuff on a deadline as usual in dev. I wanted more creative control over the process, since I realized that was just as important to me, if not more. The small things I did where well received, so it was not that I had bad taste. So that was not for me, so be careful if you're hired for your expertise, it's going to be hard to do other things than that in a busy company, no matter what they say.
A lot big game dev firms and even some mid-level indies will saddle you with work where most of the creative decisions have been made already and you are tasked with making it happen.
And that, my friend, is why these are the questions I will ask prospective employers during interviews.
Good luck! I hope you find happiness in the game dev space. I'm sure there are some great employers out there if you look for them. Just don't get lured into a big compensation package at a giant lootbox company that will crush your passion.
> Even if I'm not making the top decisions, you can't develop a game with zero creative input;
I'm pretty sure that, in any larger game dev company, you'll have producers/game designers for that. They can listen to your input but ultimately decisions will be theirs. It's probably different in indies though.
I'm pretty sure that, in any larger game dev company, you'll have producers/game designers for that. They can listen to your input but ultimately decisions will be theirs. It's probably different in indies though.
I'm curious since both you and the OP seem to have a similar experience working in Fintech. Might you or someone else say what is it about Fintech that is so bad? Is it cultural?
I can't speak for the industry as a whole, but for me at my particular company in my particular role, it's been 4 years of not just grind, but boring grind. And since the pandemic, upper management has continually made decisions that affect our ability to do our jobs negatively, with either no explanations or BS explanations that don't actually make sense and are just trying to use politics to toe the company line. In short, we as developers are hired for our ability to think through things logically and find why things don't work and how to make them work, but upper management expects us to be okay with broken policies without any logical rationale. With all that, and a recent crunch as we started bleeding devs (partly as a result of those policies), I need something fulfilling in order to be okay with the added anxiety and pressure... and there's nothing fulfilling about the job.
As someone who left the video game industry many years ago, I can tell you that it won't be that creative.
The real creativity happens in indie game development and smaller studios, not the "churn the latest AAA game using starry eyed low paid 20 year olds" mills.
If you want to have creativity, either find a cushy and easy boring job and make the game of your dreams on the side, or find some small indie studio working on stuff that interests you.
The real creativity happens in indie game development and smaller studios, not the "churn the latest AAA game using starry eyed low paid 20 year olds" mills.
If you want to have creativity, either find a cushy and easy boring job and make the game of your dreams on the side, or find some small indie studio working on stuff that interests you.
To GP: this is very true. The parent comment's third paragraph is a superb strategy to consider.
Of course, if your mind's made up, you'll just have to realize this for yourself, through first-hand experience.
Of course, if your mind's made up, you'll just have to realize this for yourself, through first-hand experience.
I'm not looking for a AAA studio. An indie studio is fine with me (in fact, preferred). I know what my minimum salary is to afford my bills/mortgage/food, and I'm not greedy beyond that :)
I was one year in indie studio as art director. Yes, it is probably more creative than in AAA studio, but you never know if your game will pay your effort. So it is more like hazard.
Hah hah! Moving to game dev because you're burnt out... Smart
It is when the burnout is a result of lack of creativity :)
> But all the computer science jobs just seem so dull and pointless
There’s a difference in the work being dull and the work environment being dull. I’ve had some of the best working times of my life building simple apps with a small team.
> I enjoy web scraping a lot and have used it to solve a bunch of real world problems
Web scraping is an extremely dull topic for me, but I would readily work on it again if I needed to. Good chance I’d end up enjoying it, since no doubt there are new techniques and challenges to overcome since last time.
What I think you’re missing is how dynamic and interesting even those entry level positions can be, and how quickly you may move up in position and salary. It sounds as if you like working with people, technical writing, leadership, and coding. That’s a very robust starting point.
There’s a difference in the work being dull and the work environment being dull. I’ve had some of the best working times of my life building simple apps with a small team.
> I enjoy web scraping a lot and have used it to solve a bunch of real world problems
Web scraping is an extremely dull topic for me, but I would readily work on it again if I needed to. Good chance I’d end up enjoying it, since no doubt there are new techniques and challenges to overcome since last time.
What I think you’re missing is how dynamic and interesting even those entry level positions can be, and how quickly you may move up in position and salary. It sounds as if you like working with people, technical writing, leadership, and coding. That’s a very robust starting point.
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Design manager, not a coder, but been in the workforce for quite a while at this point ...
The specifics vary from person to person, but the first 5-10 years of your career tends to be the "find what you don't want to do for the rest of your life" phase. It's actually a good thing to realize that you don't want to do X; you have a strong data point (or several) of what you know to avoid for future jobs.
You know you like working with people (so you can tailor the job search towards in-office jobs). You like solving real-world problems (sometimes companies where tech is a single department vs the whole shebang are better for this -- tech-only companies tend to be a little navel-gazey about their own use but that's from an outsider, take with a massive grain of salt :>).
Apply to many different places. See if you can get contracting gigs if your life circumstances allow for it to "taste" different companies and get more data points. I wish you the best of luck.
The specifics vary from person to person, but the first 5-10 years of your career tends to be the "find what you don't want to do for the rest of your life" phase. It's actually a good thing to realize that you don't want to do X; you have a strong data point (or several) of what you know to avoid for future jobs.
You know you like working with people (so you can tailor the job search towards in-office jobs). You like solving real-world problems (sometimes companies where tech is a single department vs the whole shebang are better for this -- tech-only companies tend to be a little navel-gazey about their own use but that's from an outsider, take with a massive grain of salt :>).
Apply to many different places. See if you can get contracting gigs if your life circumstances allow for it to "taste" different companies and get more data points. I wish you the best of luck.
I guess I don’t understand, it seems like you’re actually disillusioned from school and your relationship ending?
You haven’t actually worked in tech though, right?
I would recommend getting a job in the field and at least trying it before you declare it dull and pointless. Personally I wasn’t crazy about a bunch of people that majored in comp sci either, but I’ve made a ton of friends through my career and worked on interesting and challenging problems and get paid pretty well to do it.
Maybe also consider going to therapy or talking to someone, it seems like you might just be depressed over your breakup, which is perfectly reasonable.
You haven’t actually worked in tech though, right?
I would recommend getting a job in the field and at least trying it before you declare it dull and pointless. Personally I wasn’t crazy about a bunch of people that majored in comp sci either, but I’ve made a ton of friends through my career and worked on interesting and challenging problems and get paid pretty well to do it.
Maybe also consider going to therapy or talking to someone, it seems like you might just be depressed over your breakup, which is perfectly reasonable.
> I get work is first and foremost an exchange of labour for money, and not supposed to be fun.
I have always picked jobs doing something I've enjoyed. I've had times where I got a bit sick of it, but most of my 20+ years of work have been getting paid to tinker with things I enjoy tinkering with.
Work doesn't have to suck. Keep looking. Find a job that interests you and find the fun in it. Keep your eyes open and switch when something better comes along.
Never switch jobs solely for more money. As long as you can pay the bills, work conditions and happiness are more important.
I have always picked jobs doing something I've enjoyed. I've had times where I got a bit sick of it, but most of my 20+ years of work have been getting paid to tinker with things I enjoy tinkering with.
Work doesn't have to suck. Keep looking. Find a job that interests you and find the fun in it. Keep your eyes open and switch when something better comes along.
Never switch jobs solely for more money. As long as you can pay the bills, work conditions and happiness are more important.
Pushing bits into a computer qualifies as tech? I guess....
Felt disillusioned a few times, changed jobs when that happened.
40+ years in electronics, from TV tx systems, RF systems, computer repair (pre-PC), electrical work, and mechanics as a bench tech, test engineer, mfg engineer, NPI engineer. Occasionally pushing bits in to board processors and PCs. Hacking h/w and s/w in odd ways. Later doing configuration control and change orders for tech companies working with tier 1 international factories. Worked with marketing, artists, IT, product mangers, purchasing, fabricators, contractors and spent ~ 4-8 years in meetings..Saw the rise of dilbert from spot on humorous, to disturbingly predictive, to not funny anymore as my job looked like it. Retired a few years ago, consulting a bit, enjoying playing with arduinos and at-tiny85s, and volunteering.
40+ years in electronics, from TV tx systems, RF systems, computer repair (pre-PC), electrical work, and mechanics as a bench tech, test engineer, mfg engineer, NPI engineer. Occasionally pushing bits in to board processors and PCs. Hacking h/w and s/w in odd ways. Later doing configuration control and change orders for tech companies working with tier 1 international factories. Worked with marketing, artists, IT, product mangers, purchasing, fabricators, contractors and spent ~ 4-8 years in meetings..Saw the rise of dilbert from spot on humorous, to disturbingly predictive, to not funny anymore as my job looked like it. Retired a few years ago, consulting a bit, enjoying playing with arduinos and at-tiny85s, and volunteering.
Sorry our definition of tech doesn’t meet your old standards? Like what?
I think you misinterpreted what they meant
What are you missing? A whole lot from the sound of it. There is so much variety out there it's incredible.
There's software behind every industry and product you can imagine. Manufacturing, construction, chemistry, pharmaceuticals, many kinds of financial services (insurance, banking, many kinds of trading firms), video games, defense companies of many kinds (weapons, aerospace, ships and subs, cyber security both red and blue teams). You have embedded development, app development, systems development, web development, data analysis, mobile development, back end development. There are people writing code, people testing code, people managing, product managing, solutions engineering, sales engineering. Big companies, small companies, governments, consulting companies. Enterprise product companies, consumer product companies, professional services companies.
Just try something. How do you already know how it will go without trying it? Just work somewhere on something that sounds remotely interesting. Realize what it's really like, not just how you imagined it. And if you like it, great. If you don't, there's a whole lot out there to try next.
There's software behind every industry and product you can imagine. Manufacturing, construction, chemistry, pharmaceuticals, many kinds of financial services (insurance, banking, many kinds of trading firms), video games, defense companies of many kinds (weapons, aerospace, ships and subs, cyber security both red and blue teams). You have embedded development, app development, systems development, web development, data analysis, mobile development, back end development. There are people writing code, people testing code, people managing, product managing, solutions engineering, sales engineering. Big companies, small companies, governments, consulting companies. Enterprise product companies, consumer product companies, professional services companies.
Just try something. How do you already know how it will go without trying it? Just work somewhere on something that sounds remotely interesting. Realize what it's really like, not just how you imagined it. And if you like it, great. If you don't, there's a whole lot out there to try next.
If you're not the type of person who writes CRUD apps for fun then what do you think you're doing? Go do the PHD I guess.
I like writing CRUD apps. The best part is when you've been doing what you would do if you weren't getting paid and you get to say "fuck you pay me".
That's all this is, searching and sorting and a UI on top of it. CRUD apps.
It ain't computer science.
I like writing CRUD apps. The best part is when you've been doing what you would do if you weren't getting paid and you get to say "fuck you pay me".
That's all this is, searching and sorting and a UI on top of it. CRUD apps.
It ain't computer science.
Two of my favorite parts of CRUD are the data modeling and interface design. There are certain CRUD interfaces that will end up with thousands of user hours in them. It's important that they're good.
Business folks have input, but often you the programmer are on the hook for the data model. The best data models can be incredibly resilient yet evolvable across the lifetime of the business. They'll define how people think about and process the entities in your system for years to come.
Same for user interfaces. People have spent thousands of aggregate hours in CRUD that I've built doing jobs to support themselves and their families. It's the little affordances that make systems reliable, effective and maybe even kinda fun to use as an end user.
Also you can fuck both of the above up really badly and see cascading negative consequences for years... I've definitely needed a few oopsies to learn just how important CRUD decisions can be.
Business folks have input, but often you the programmer are on the hook for the data model. The best data models can be incredibly resilient yet evolvable across the lifetime of the business. They'll define how people think about and process the entities in your system for years to come.
Same for user interfaces. People have spent thousands of aggregate hours in CRUD that I've built doing jobs to support themselves and their families. It's the little affordances that make systems reliable, effective and maybe even kinda fun to use as an end user.
Also you can fuck both of the above up really badly and see cascading negative consequences for years... I've definitely needed a few oopsies to learn just how important CRUD decisions can be.
> People have spent thousands of aggregate hours in CRUD that I've built doing jobs to support themselves and their families. It's the little affordances that make systems reliable, effective and maybe even kinda fun to use as an end user.
Agree with all you said, but this really hit home. It’s incredibly fulfilling to see and work with people spending thousands of hours in your app while your team continually improve it.
Agree with all you said, but this really hit home. It’s incredibly fulfilling to see and work with people spending thousands of hours in your app while your team continually improve it.
I think everyone should spend a few years digging ditches or perhaps long shifts at a restaurant if not so tough. If you don't slowly come to the realization that you're in one of the most fortunate cohorts in human history, I'll eat crow.
Step two, go skydiving. Will clear out the cobwebs.
Step two, go skydiving. Will clear out the cobwebs.
I'm pretty new to it so I don't feel that way. I get some interesting work. Even the duller stuff, I see the value of it. Client wants a CRUD app, they pay for it, I code it, I get paid. Struggle to really see the loser. Even if it's not super exciting I still find it fun to get things working, and I see how it makes things easier for their business. Imagine if they just had to email Excel spreadsheets to one another.
Maybe it's cause I'm still in the growth stage of my career where there is a lot to learn. I also don't approach it with a heroic idea of changing the world. I just want to do a good job at something useful to make my living.
Maybe it's cause I'm still in the growth stage of my career where there is a lot to learn. I also don't approach it with a heroic idea of changing the world. I just want to do a good job at something useful to make my living.
I am basically in the "change or die trying" camp, I have become completely and absolutely incapabable of accepting a job creating problems for ordinary people.
Mostly it's because I have a pretty clear vision for what needs to happen but I'm stuck alone in a future that no one else seems to see and it is wearing me down tbh.
We can make things less painful by just doing the things that make sense for a little bit and then the whole house of cards will come tumbling down and work will be useful again... why no one else sees this idk but what is almost incredible is how incapable people are when it comes to trusting their own assessments rather than the ones made by economic/judicial/certification- systems, often they will acknowledge what I have to say but then are too comfortable to "rock the boat"
Mostly it's because I have a pretty clear vision for what needs to happen but I'm stuck alone in a future that no one else seems to see and it is wearing me down tbh.
We can make things less painful by just doing the things that make sense for a little bit and then the whole house of cards will come tumbling down and work will be useful again... why no one else sees this idk but what is almost incredible is how incapable people are when it comes to trusting their own assessments rather than the ones made by economic/judicial/certification- systems, often they will acknowledge what I have to say but then are too comfortable to "rock the boat"
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So true...I am disillusioned for years now. Every company I worked for was using some weird and dirty way for some people I don't like to make money. There are not a lot of jobs in today's society though that has something better to offer. Marketing, making money, marketing all the same. Nobody (almost) cares about making world or life of some people better. Bit it is a good thing you've got disillusioned so early in your life.Maybe you will have a chance and time to find( if you will search) something meaningful to do with those 36000 days you have on this planet.
>I get work is first and foremost an exchange of labour for money, and not supposed to be fun.
Not true. Work is about providing value for someone else in exchange for money. It's about negotiating with someone so that you both feel like you're getting a good deal. If you develop the amount of value you can off and your negotiating skills you can improve your life.
Each "pointless" job is just a stepping stone to developing your value. If you can see these as an investment in your career you might be able to tolerate a few years in jobs you don't love. Then you'll have the credentials to walk into a role you would love.
Not true. Work is about providing value for someone else in exchange for money. It's about negotiating with someone so that you both feel like you're getting a good deal. If you develop the amount of value you can off and your negotiating skills you can improve your life.
Each "pointless" job is just a stepping stone to developing your value. If you can see these as an investment in your career you might be able to tolerate a few years in jobs you don't love. Then you'll have the credentials to walk into a role you would love.
You might find this community interesting. https://www.indiehackers.com/. There is a culture/group of small one-person startups that are more aimed at lifestyle than trying to necessarily get taken over.
> I enjoy web scraping a lot and have used it to solve a bunch of real world problems my (ex) girlfriend or I had.
It is these kinds of problems people there are finding, but also making sure one way or another that there is demand for people to pay for those problems to be solved. As it is not enough that there is a problem, there has to be a paying audience.
It is quite a journey and a lot of dedication to get a little business up and running, but the reward will be getting paid to do mostly what you love each day. Eventually.
And being in Europe you can get to freedom quicker by finding a low cost of living city, town, or rural area even. As long as you have good internet.
My advice (to early me) would be - cut costs down to the bone. Stay single (for the time it gives you), cut friends who make you do expensive things, live in crappiest shared accommodation, sell valuables, eschew alcohol and eating out. And get literally to ramen profitability (making enough money so you can eat. I recommend eating healthy though, not just noodles!).
Most stuff we don't need. Need a phone? Well maybe but a $20 phone on a $10/year plan is enough. Need a gym? No - you just need some heavy objects around the house. Etc.
To make this monk-like life more interesting, you could nomad a bit and stay in different parts of the country, which you should be able to do cheaply if you can live from a single suitcase or backpack. Instead of drinking / eating out in expensive capital cities, you are exploring small towns with your packed lunch. I say this as it adds a bit of spark to otherwise frugal existence that can be hard to swallow if friends are living it up.
Also make friends and meet up with people doing similar to you.
The old advice is quit your job ONCE you are making money. I say, save enough money then quit, and learn to live without a job. I wish I had.
> I enjoy web scraping a lot and have used it to solve a bunch of real world problems my (ex) girlfriend or I had.
It is these kinds of problems people there are finding, but also making sure one way or another that there is demand for people to pay for those problems to be solved. As it is not enough that there is a problem, there has to be a paying audience.
It is quite a journey and a lot of dedication to get a little business up and running, but the reward will be getting paid to do mostly what you love each day. Eventually.
And being in Europe you can get to freedom quicker by finding a low cost of living city, town, or rural area even. As long as you have good internet.
My advice (to early me) would be - cut costs down to the bone. Stay single (for the time it gives you), cut friends who make you do expensive things, live in crappiest shared accommodation, sell valuables, eschew alcohol and eating out. And get literally to ramen profitability (making enough money so you can eat. I recommend eating healthy though, not just noodles!).
Most stuff we don't need. Need a phone? Well maybe but a $20 phone on a $10/year plan is enough. Need a gym? No - you just need some heavy objects around the house. Etc.
To make this monk-like life more interesting, you could nomad a bit and stay in different parts of the country, which you should be able to do cheaply if you can live from a single suitcase or backpack. Instead of drinking / eating out in expensive capital cities, you are exploring small towns with your packed lunch. I say this as it adds a bit of spark to otherwise frugal existence that can be hard to swallow if friends are living it up.
Also make friends and meet up with people doing similar to you.
The old advice is quit your job ONCE you are making money. I say, save enough money then quit, and learn to live without a job. I wish I had.
Working out what to do with your life is easy for some who seem born to a particular vocation. However, a pattern you’ll notice is that those people are firstly focused on service to others in a role they’re good at. So, first focus on how your work serves others even if it’s just your team or those you help support from your paychecks, ensure you’re good at it and seek to improve, and you’ll find a degree of fulfillment in it no matter what it is. There’s nothing wrong with seeking out a vocation yourself too, but real meaning always comes from service to the other.
I've been in the industry for over two decades... I am in this post, and I don't like it. :)
When I started, dial-up internet was the best we could do. Our generation hoped that, by wiring up the world with internet connectivity, we would bring people closer together... so that humanity, as a whole, could realize that we have more in common than we have differences. So that facts and knowledge could be shared and humanity could get better at collaborating. To some degree, that has happened. In other ways, technology has worked in more counter-productive ways, accelerating the spread of lies and misinformation as "alternative facts".
Honestly though, as a teenager, I got into computers because I liked video games, and I wanted to learn how to make them. Post-college, I realized that the games industry was abusive, overly competitive, and low-paying... and if I wanted to support myself, I would be better off doing "boring" software. So that's where I ended up.
Even so, it was always my hope that my work in tech would make the world a better place, somehow... even if only indirectly. I preferred working on open source software. I tried to work for companies with decent values, with people who cared about more than just making money.
To some degree, I'm content. I make enough to support my family and put a roof over their heads. Hopefully they can go to college and afford housing. Hopefully climate change and idiocracy won't set them up for failure.
But honestly, I'm not just disillusioned from working in tech. I'm burned out on life. The hopes and dreams of my generation have not been fulfilled. Humanity is not coming together to solve our biggest problems. Instead, we have narcissistic world leaders who continue to divide us, choose war over peace, and impose suffering over equality and human rights. None of the biggest technology companies are moving that needle in the right direction in any meaningful way (at least that I can see).
At this point, I just don't know if there is any tech company I could work at that could possibly make a real difference in the world.
When I started, dial-up internet was the best we could do. Our generation hoped that, by wiring up the world with internet connectivity, we would bring people closer together... so that humanity, as a whole, could realize that we have more in common than we have differences. So that facts and knowledge could be shared and humanity could get better at collaborating. To some degree, that has happened. In other ways, technology has worked in more counter-productive ways, accelerating the spread of lies and misinformation as "alternative facts".
Honestly though, as a teenager, I got into computers because I liked video games, and I wanted to learn how to make them. Post-college, I realized that the games industry was abusive, overly competitive, and low-paying... and if I wanted to support myself, I would be better off doing "boring" software. So that's where I ended up.
Even so, it was always my hope that my work in tech would make the world a better place, somehow... even if only indirectly. I preferred working on open source software. I tried to work for companies with decent values, with people who cared about more than just making money.
To some degree, I'm content. I make enough to support my family and put a roof over their heads. Hopefully they can go to college and afford housing. Hopefully climate change and idiocracy won't set them up for failure.
But honestly, I'm not just disillusioned from working in tech. I'm burned out on life. The hopes and dreams of my generation have not been fulfilled. Humanity is not coming together to solve our biggest problems. Instead, we have narcissistic world leaders who continue to divide us, choose war over peace, and impose suffering over equality and human rights. None of the biggest technology companies are moving that needle in the right direction in any meaningful way (at least that I can see).
At this point, I just don't know if there is any tech company I could work at that could possibly make a real difference in the world.
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I have a friend who likely live in your city (there aren’t many EU big capitals that fit your description), who managed to get a job as a Research Data Scientist on a Uber-like company. His focus is Self-Driving.
Such positions for people like you exist out there, but you‘ve got be patient because there aren’t many.
Such positions for people like you exist out there, but you‘ve got be patient because there aren’t many.
What are you passionate about? Might be able to find an overlap or related field that you enjoy. For me, an interesting problem-space and hardworking/friendly coworkers can go a long way.
In case the big European capital (with a lot of tech jobs) is Berlin, I might have an interesting opportunity for you. Take a look at my profile and feel free to contact me if you are interested.
> I get work is first and foremost an exchange of labour for money, and not supposed to be fun.
Perhaps the tech field just isn’t for you? I mean that sincerely - if these aren’t the kind of problems that bring meaning to you in your career, or if you need your career to give you something more than a paycheck, then maybe this just isn’t the place for you. Or, perhaps you should consider using your tech skills in the NGO / non-profit world? The money won’t be as good (probably), but perhaps you’d get greater emotional meaning from the work?
Perhaps the tech field just isn’t for you? I mean that sincerely - if these aren’t the kind of problems that bring meaning to you in your career, or if you need your career to give you something more than a paycheck, then maybe this just isn’t the place for you. Or, perhaps you should consider using your tech skills in the NGO / non-profit world? The money won’t be as good (probably), but perhaps you’d get greater emotional meaning from the work?
Yeah, I’m done with it. Software is bullshit, as is development of software.
Oddly, I kinda figured this before I ever entered the field. I loved programming, but probably wouldn’t have loved a career in it. Ofc, economic conditions forced me in that direction anyway. I figured I would end up here ones way or another, but not so soon.
Now I’m looking at leaving the field and have the ability to do it, so it gave me that much.
Oddly, I kinda figured this before I ever entered the field. I loved programming, but probably wouldn’t have loved a career in it. Ofc, economic conditions forced me in that direction anyway. I figured I would end up here ones way or another, but not so soon.
Now I’m looking at leaving the field and have the ability to do it, so it gave me that much.
What do you have lined up?
Yeah, I've been in the business properly since 2013, have worked at various companies, and I'm often disillusioned. Reasons include:
- I've given up on the hope that tech makes the world a better place. Outside of some niches that probably pay next to nothing, or the rare jobs that probably require maths or CS PhDs, it serves as a minor convenience at best and is downright exploitative and damaging for society at worst (I refuse to work at the latter kind of company, so I'll just choose the "minor convenience" ones)
- As a perfectionist person with a somewhat "scientific" mindset, I'm disappointed by the lack of rigour in our discipline. We have decades of research on software engineering, yet we continue to recycle hypes, and don't learn from past mistakes. I'm not complaining that some problems have no clear solutions and that picking the right one for a given context is hard; I'm complaining that, by and large, we refuse to even seriously engage with the "what has come before" kind of thinking, seriously evaluate solutions before committing to them, a rigorous style of arguing, etc.
- Most codebases don't pay appropriate consideration to security. I'm not even arguing about complicated stuff like supply chain attacks, just simple things like "don't print out full stack traces in your user-facing exceptions" or "don't rely on IP ranges to limit access to your API".
- The reason for the two previous points is that nobody has time for anything. The tech world moves too fast, investors throw money at dubious enterprises, users expect too much at too little cost, we don't communicate that complexity comes at the cost of speed of iteration, security and so on, and even if we did, users wouldn't care. We deploy these hot messes of distributed monoliths, every project of which depends on hundreds of packages, each of which could introduce a security vulnerability at any time or needlessly constrain our ability to evolve further, and there is basically no solution for that.
- Basically every company that I've been at has been bad in a different way. It's funny that there seem to be almost infinitely many ways of screwing things up.
- Coding in a team is genuinely hard. Even if you all like each other, even if you're all brilliant - you still have to agree to some lowest common denominator and code can never be as elegant and intuitive as something written by just a single person. And when you don't like everyone, or when some people are technically weak, it just gets harder.
I worked in one team, a couple of years ago, that was really great. Unfortunately, we didn't really have support from the rest of the org and were eventually all let go. Since then, I've never found another team with the same level of rigour, ownership, passion and curiosity, and I'm starting to think that it was this once-in-a-lifetime perfect storm that I won't be able to find anywhere else.
I'm not sure what to make of all that. For now, I try to focus more on my life outside of work. I don't hate working per se, I still enjoy solving a hard problem, fixing a weird bug, refactor a hot mess into something readable and writing elegant code, and maybe if I just accept that work is work and not an extension of yourself, all of the above will become easier to accept.
- I've given up on the hope that tech makes the world a better place. Outside of some niches that probably pay next to nothing, or the rare jobs that probably require maths or CS PhDs, it serves as a minor convenience at best and is downright exploitative and damaging for society at worst (I refuse to work at the latter kind of company, so I'll just choose the "minor convenience" ones)
- As a perfectionist person with a somewhat "scientific" mindset, I'm disappointed by the lack of rigour in our discipline. We have decades of research on software engineering, yet we continue to recycle hypes, and don't learn from past mistakes. I'm not complaining that some problems have no clear solutions and that picking the right one for a given context is hard; I'm complaining that, by and large, we refuse to even seriously engage with the "what has come before" kind of thinking, seriously evaluate solutions before committing to them, a rigorous style of arguing, etc.
- Most codebases don't pay appropriate consideration to security. I'm not even arguing about complicated stuff like supply chain attacks, just simple things like "don't print out full stack traces in your user-facing exceptions" or "don't rely on IP ranges to limit access to your API".
- The reason for the two previous points is that nobody has time for anything. The tech world moves too fast, investors throw money at dubious enterprises, users expect too much at too little cost, we don't communicate that complexity comes at the cost of speed of iteration, security and so on, and even if we did, users wouldn't care. We deploy these hot messes of distributed monoliths, every project of which depends on hundreds of packages, each of which could introduce a security vulnerability at any time or needlessly constrain our ability to evolve further, and there is basically no solution for that.
- Basically every company that I've been at has been bad in a different way. It's funny that there seem to be almost infinitely many ways of screwing things up.
- Coding in a team is genuinely hard. Even if you all like each other, even if you're all brilliant - you still have to agree to some lowest common denominator and code can never be as elegant and intuitive as something written by just a single person. And when you don't like everyone, or when some people are technically weak, it just gets harder.
I worked in one team, a couple of years ago, that was really great. Unfortunately, we didn't really have support from the rest of the org and were eventually all let go. Since then, I've never found another team with the same level of rigour, ownership, passion and curiosity, and I'm starting to think that it was this once-in-a-lifetime perfect storm that I won't be able to find anywhere else.
I'm not sure what to make of all that. For now, I try to focus more on my life outside of work. I don't hate working per se, I still enjoy solving a hard problem, fixing a weird bug, refactor a hot mess into something readable and writing elegant code, and maybe if I just accept that work is work and not an extension of yourself, all of the above will become easier to accept.
Yep, I'm disillusioned. All the jobs seem pointless or boring.
>Yep, I'm disillusioned. All the jobs seem pointless or boring.
Yeah i felt the same way. Left tech. Now i own a construction business. Very rewarding work. Imagine people living in or conducting business inside of your work product for perhaps generations.
Yeah i felt the same way. Left tech. Now i own a construction business. Very rewarding work. Imagine people living in or conducting business inside of your work product for perhaps generations.
Yep, I worked at Lowes as a second job one summer. It was more rewarding helping people find stuff for their projects than being a dev.
I mean I can see that. I worked at a small computer repair shop and the way people would react sometimes when we managed to save their family photos or PHD thesis off of a failing disk made me feel like I was genuinely making someone's life better.
I left my political communications related job and now I work in a specialized lingerie/bra-fitting shop to stretch my savings while I figure out what I want to do next.
It's far more satisfying, and I don't hate humanity after every shift.
Unfortunately, it's not a long-term way to make a living.
It's far more satisfying, and I don't hate humanity after every shift.
Unfortunately, it's not a long-term way to make a living.
political communications, that sounds... unrewarding. indeed.
i wish you the best of luck in finding something that satisfies your objectives in life and provides fulfillment.
i wish you the best of luck in finding something that satisfies your objectives in life and provides fulfillment.
writing code professionally (in corporate america) is almost the definition of being a cog in a machine to me. at a startup not so much; but burnout is real.
writing software as a hobby is fun and rewarding.
writing software as a hobby is fun and rewarding.
How did you get qualified to build?
i went up to a jobsite and asked for a job. learned framing.
im a quick study. and i had the benefit of a good teacher.
once i get a foothold of basic fundamental knowledge i supplement it with reading, just like i did when i wrote software professionally, and anything else.
im a quick study. and i had the benefit of a good teacher.
once i get a foothold of basic fundamental knowledge i supplement it with reading, just like i did when i wrote software professionally, and anything else.
You could work for a big company building CRUD apps ;^)
I'm immensely burnt out on programming professionally but if I could get paid enough to live comfortably in a 2br apartment with my cat writing CRUD apps in PHP without ever even needing to see a customer or client, much less speak to one, and then be done at 5PM and shut off my work PC, I'd probably be happy. No startup hustle with unrealistic and demanding clients that get to run the company by proxy, none of that. That's hell on Earth.
I don't even like PHP, but if there's a group of programmers that live peaceful lives, my money is on 9-5 PHP programmers writing CRUD apps.
I don't even like PHP, but if there's a group of programmers that live peaceful lives, my money is on 9-5 PHP programmers writing CRUD apps.
90% of all software engineering will be nullified soon. Exactly for the reason you mention.
Check oout Vow Foods.
It seems like you could enjoy working in Visual Effects. It's a very creative/fun industry, but the sausage ain't any better from a capitalism PoV.
What you described is mostly not tech jobs. Tech is building Starlink, or maybe even Chat application No 17 at Google, or doing some other technical product. Coding work at banks or other non-tech corporations you mentioned rarely have any technical challenges - they merely use technology, they don't develop it themselves.
This just feels like arbitrary gate keeping. The vast majority of people would consider any kind of coding work a "tech" job.
Maybe there's not much innovation happening in these jobs, but that's a different topic.
Maybe there's not much innovation happening in these jobs, but that's a different topic.
> The vast majority of people would consider any kind of coding work a "tech" job.
I'm not so sure. Even on Wall Street (which is pretty mainstream), "Tech" means FAANGs and similar, not a yogurt factory releasing its iOS calorie counting app.
I'm not so sure. Even on Wall Street (which is pretty mainstream), "Tech" means FAANGs and similar, not a yogurt factory releasing its iOS calorie counting app.
You’re confusing “novel” with “tech.” Very few people work on novel problems as programmers compared to the number of programmers. It doesn’t mean they don’t work on/with “tech.”
A baker may just follow recipes. It doesn’t mean he’s not a baker.
A baker may just follow recipes. It doesn’t mean he’s not a baker.
Technology is a sector classification, but for any other company in other sectors, they likely have a business unit called Technology, with a c-suite position called chief technology officer, with developers who hold computer science degrees (just like at Google! No wai?! Yes wai!)
MasterCard is also a tech SPDR holding, for… reasons?
And finally, Netflix is a tech company with a film studio, but Disney is a film studio with a technology application, and I can’t meaningfully disambiguate why someone who works on Netflix code is in technology and a Disney+ developer is not.
MasterCard is also a tech SPDR holding, for… reasons?
And finally, Netflix is a tech company with a film studio, but Disney is a film studio with a technology application, and I can’t meaningfully disambiguate why someone who works on Netflix code is in technology and a Disney+ developer is not.
That is in the context of companies. Agreed, a yogurt company is not a "tech" company. But someone who programs their mobile app certainly has a "tech" job.
FWIW, I work at a company who’s core product is a SaaS suite and it’s about as interesting as when I worked at a non tech F500.
What am I missing? I get work is first and foremost an exchange of labour for money, and not supposed to be fun. But aren't there more options I missed so far? I enjoy web scraping a lot and have used it to solve a bunch of real world problems my (ex) girlfriend or I had. I could conceivably work as a freelancer and have done so in the past as a psychology student but I really want to work on something as part of a team. I recently came across the "developer relations" role, i.e. representing the company at conferences and online, recording demos, writing technical blog posts etc.. it seems perfect for me (I prefer working with people), but I would assume they are looking for people who have a few years of experience already so they know what they're talking about?
EDIT: plus some of the most insufferable people I've met in my life were in undergrad CS classes or colleagues in SWE gigs